Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1200



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Ship damage in Emperor's Arsenal
Q-ships (decoy ships)
Error w/ Q-Ship
RE: Rimward of Solomani rim...
Traveller Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Adventure Writing Contest
Empress Marva
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
MT task system
Re: Realism and "Literary" SF role-playing
Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn
Re: 2D starmaps
Re: IR Masking
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Norris/Gay
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: H2 Storage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:40:08 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:55:43 +1200, you wrote:

> At 19:05 13/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >>From: Marcus <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
> >
> >>        I've been thinking about the positional variation when doing =
a
> jump.  It
> >>lead me to believe that there should be a time uncertainty as well.  =
It
> >
> >>This implies a need for very
> >>large ships carrying smaller attack craft through the jump.=20
> >
> >This must be why battle riders were developed -- why haven't I thought=
 of this=20
> >in the 18 or so years that I've been playing Traveller? =20
> >
> >--Glenn
> >
> I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point =
(say
> within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have the =
same
> Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the same
> formation they went in. I also generally assume that when doing this =
the
> ships all calculate the jump, and cross-check each other, thus giving a=
 very
> accurate jump.

According to "canon", the longer you take to make your pre-jump
calculations, the more precise the arrival time/place.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:11:37 -0700
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Ship damage in Emperor's Arsenal

Several of the large TL 13-15 Plasma Cannons list a ship damage figure
(i.e. 11-0-0-0).  Anyone know what the conversion is between dice of
damage to PC's and ship damage?

Specifically, I'd like to know how a small ship's laser will affect a guy in
Augmented Battledress.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:05:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Q-ships (decoy ships)

Way, way, w-a-y back in the days of CT, Marc Miller & co. postulated the
existence of decoy ships (q-ships) in an article they did in JTAS or
_Challenge_.  These are ships that resemble normal merchant ships, until
they meet with pirates.  Then -- *surprise!!!* -- they open up with all
guns and blow Mr. Pirate away.  

In TNE, the Warship column of the Ship Table can result in a character
receiving a "modified" free/far/fat trader/liner (more guns).  Wouldn't it
be more appropriate to let the characters get a q-ship, one that's
*designed* with better maneuver drives, instead of a trader with just some
extra weapons?   I know *I'd* prefer for my character to receive such a
ship.  :-)

I designed one that looks like the typical far trader.  It has jump-2, so
it can keep up with a merchant convoy, a sheepdog in sheep's clothing,
waiting for some poor, unsuspecting pirate to wander into its gunsights...

I've been meaning to do the finishing touches (how many hits/Hits the
components take, the hit location chart, etc.), but I never did find the
time, so I'm posting the FFS-style writeup now.  

Feedback would be appreciated.  

Franklin
*******************************************************************************
Phantom-class Decoy Ship (Type-QL) 

General Data

Displacement: 200 tons          Hull Armor: 56
Length: 42.5 meters             Volume: 5,600 kiloliters 
Price: MCr 173.376              Target Size: S
Configuration: Wedge SL         Tech Level: 14
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,533.753/1,371.353

Engineering Data

Power Plant: 450 MW TL-14 Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration 
  (33.069 MW shortfall; see below)
Jump Performance: 2 parsecs (420 kiloliters total; 210 kiloliters 
  per parsec) 
G-Rating: 3 G (100 MW/G); Contra-Grav Lifters (20 MW)
G-Turns: 80 (113.6 with jump fuel), 12.5 kiloliters each
Fuel Tankage: 1,420 kiloliters, plus 45 kiloliters reserved for 
  power plant 
Maint: 57

Electronics

Computer: 3x TL-14 Mod Fb Computers (1.0 MW each)
Commo: 
  1x TL-14 Radio, 300,000 km (10 hx; 10 MW); 
  1x TL-14 Laser-Commo, 1,000 AU (inf.; 0.3 MW); 
  1x TL-14 Maser-Commo, 1,000 AU (inf.; 0.6 MW)
Avionics: TL-10+ Avionics
Sensors: 
  1x TL-14 Active EMS array, DF capable, 300,000 km (10 hx; 15 MW); 
  1x TL-14 Passive EMS array, fixed array, 90,000 km (3 hx; 0.06 MW);
  1x TL-14 Passive EMS array, folding array, 180,000 km (6 hx; 0.2 MW)
ECM/ECCM: 1x TL-14 EMS Jammer, 300,000 km (10 hx; 30 MW)
Controls: Bridge with 8 workstations, plus 3 other workstations 

Armaments

Hardpoints: 4x Turret Hardpoint Socket (Loc: 8, 9, 16/17, 18/19)
Offensive:
  2x Missile Turret (2 missiles each; 0.15 MW each; Loc: 8, 9; 
    Arcs: 1, 2, 3) 
  2x TL-15 150 Mj Laser Turret (42 MW each for -2 Diff Mods; 
    4.2 MW each base; Loc: 16/17, 18/19; Arcs: All)
Defensive: None
Master Fire Directors: 2x TL-14 beam/missile (laser-commo) MFD, 
  300,000 km (10 hx; ignore 5 Diff Mods; 1.77 MW each)

Accomodations

Life Support: Extended (0.56 MW); Grav Compensators (5 Gs; 14 MW)
Crew: 25 (2x Maneuver, 1x Electronics, 3x Engineering, 6x Gunnery, 
  10x Ship's Troops/Marines, 3x Command)
Crew Accomodations: 14x Small Stateroom (0.0005 MW each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: Missile magazine with 9 missiles; small cargo hatch
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: None
Air Locks: 2 (0.001 MW each)

Notes

1.  This ship is externally identical to the classic (type-A2) far trader.  
2.  Fuel scoops capable of ingesting 1,120 kiloliters (80 tons) 
  per hour.  
3.  FPP (1.2 MW) capable of refining 240 kiloliters every 6 hours.  
  (40 kl/hr; 10.5 hours for 420 kiloliters; another 25 hours for
  1,000 kiloliters)
4.  Power plant has a shortfall of 33.069 MW when the laser turrets are
  powered to the x10 level.  This shortfall can be made up by powering
  down the CG lifters and the EMS jammer, or by powering the laser turrets
  only to the x5 level (for -1 Diff Mod).  
5.  Notice that this ship has two PEMS arrays: one fixed, one folding.  
  This improves the tactical options for the ship commander.  
  (The practice of installing two PEMS arrays, one being the largest fixed 
  array available, the other being a folding array with a longer detection 
  range, is standard for ships designed by O'Neill Shipwrights.)  

Standard ship names include Phantom, Spectre, Ghost, Shade, Haunt, Spook,
and Caspar.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:22:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Error w/ Q-Ship

I just noticed a typo w/ the writeup I just sent in.
It *should* read "Volume: 2,800 kiloliters" (*not* 5,600).

(sigh)

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:36:13 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Rimward of Solomani rim...

Now, now Mr Boleyn.

We live in a beautiful but backward (publicationwise) country.  Our cops don't need guns (Yet!) and the grass is green and the sky is blue.

Even if stuff takes 8 million years to arrive on our shelves - Still haven't seen any copies of T4 here yet!
Also I think we got about two copies of DGP stuff - I know that I saw a starship operators Handbook and also the World Tamers Book.

With the T4 record for quality I know that many stores are reluctant to stock it as it doesn't move very fast. :(


- -----Original Message-----
From:	Rupert Boleyn [SMTP:gtrupert@iconz.co.nz]
Sent:	Monday, 14 April 1997 09:53
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	RE: Rimward of Solomani rim...

At 09:46 13/04/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Rimward of the Solomani Rim is Aldebaran. Rimward of THAT is Malorn
>>>
>>>K.C. Komosky
>>
>>Where did you get Malorn from? I've never seen anything rimward of 
>Aldebaran.
>>R. Boleyn
>>
>
>Why, from DGPs Solomani and Aslan book. They give a star map that extends 
>one sector further rimward that the usualls seen maps of known space.
>
>K.C. Komosky
>umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
>
Ah, I see now. In this benighted place (New Zealand) we never got things
like DGP products.


R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:35:32 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Traveller Ship Economics - Making a buck!

It seems to me, and I'm desperate to change topics here, that the greater 
investment a High jump ship represents should be rewarded when using it as 
designed.

I may be being blatantly obvious but I feel that the rules are not clear on 
this point.

I propose that the income generated by one jump is related to the distance 
traveled in that Jump.  This means that to travel the same distance on any 
vessel always costs the same.

A jump 1 ship traveling between two planets that are j3 apart requires 3 
jump 1's and would cost a traveler Cr30,000.  If this same trip is made on 
a Jump 3 vessel then only one jump is required and the cost is still 
Cr30,000.  The same ships both traveling to a planet 1 hex away would 
charge Cr10,000.  All this would mean is that the extra capital required to 
build a J3 ship is rewarded when the ship is used as designed.

It also means that ships are designed for specific roles (as we would hope 
for) and that the proud owners of a J3 ship would be crazy (or players) to 
pop around doing J1 all the time.

It also gives those more expensive high jump ships a chance to pay 
themselves off because the earning capacity is higher per year (while ships 
repayments are also higher, of course).

These distance related charges would also apply to freight and all forms of 
passage but not to speculative cargo.

All coments welcome and apologies in advance if my microsoft mailer stuffs 
anyones stuff up.
The plan is that it won't and I am testing this before I send it.

Brody Dunn
bdunn@ihug.co.nz
brody@intersol.co.nz
bdunn@nznet.gen.nz

"I pay too many, too much"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:47:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Adventure Writing Contest

Hi,

I've gotten dozens of messages on this subject.

Tim has judged the contest, and has forwarded the results to IG.  It's up 
to IG to get that information out now.  I haven't been told anything 
more.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:54:07 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Empress Marva

Hi,
Does anyone know whom the Empress Marva Far Trader is named after?
I didn't know if she was an empress of the Imperium or something else.

If there is no canonical answer, I was going to suggest she is the main 
charater in a line of children's stories which were popular in 1000 when the
ship was first built. Like the Wizard of Oz series.  

I have come up with a version of the ship with Jump-4 engines, which was built
by Sol-Sec as a spy/courier ship inside of the Imperium.  It is called
the Princess Allianah class.  

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:32:21 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

At 06:26 PM 4/15/97 GMT, James Lindsay wrote:
>On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:43:58 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:
>
>> Science builds upon its predecessors, it does not eat them.
>
>In other words, the "Big 'Ol Book Of Science" only gets bigger.  We
>don't throw away chapters that were written decades ago because we
>learn something new about a particular subject, we simply create
>appendixes and amendments.

Welllll, not really.  Sure, Einsteinian physics didn't eat Newtonian
physics, but quantum mech did disassemble parts of the Einsteinian view.
Oxygen ate phlogiston; cognition ate behaviorism which ate hydraulic
Freudianism; plate tectonics subdued catastrophism... the list goes on.

Science as a method and a body of knowledge is great, but it's not nearly
so clean and pure as we would often like to believe.  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:33:47 +0100
From: David Scott <snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: MT task system

>From: Pablo Jaime Conill Querol <pconque@delta.cti.unav.es>
>         About the task system i do not undestand why to change the MT task
>system. Is is really good (i think), it works. Then, why we have to change
>it?. I am going to use it (except some one proposses a better task system).
>        Any comments?

I have to go along with Pablo on this one. When the Digest group brought
out the task system in early Digests I thought it was great. When it became
the MT system I thought WOW even better. It is simple to remember and easy
to use (much easier of course than the CT mess). However when TNE appeared
I bought it I love the background, but the task system sucks. I realise
this was done so that GDW had a unified system to support, but MT tasks are
still usable with that system.
T$ however has one of the worst task systems I've seen in RPGs. It is
possible to use MT with the system & background but overall it seems a
mess. Why fix something that didn't appear to be broken.

I'm about to start a new Traveller campaign with a new group of people and
I'm going to use the MT system. Just coz T$ is new doesn't mean it's what
everyone wants or works.

The strangest thing about T$ to me is the change from the old 1.5m deck
plans to 2m. Was this to satisfy the 25mm players, is 15mm dead? There is a
large selection of 15mm plans out there are people willing to throw all
that away


David

David Scott
Snail@dircon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:36 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Realism and "Literary" SF role-playing

On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:39:01 -0700 (MST), you wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:
> >=20
> > This doesn't answer the question regarding whether or not it is
> > possible to do what this player suggested; it only ignores the issue.
> > You're going to need an answer the next time the players attempt to
> > perform the same task.
>=20
> That's why they pay the GM's the big bucks...this is SOP for a GM's =
life.
> Unless you play with a bunch of dumb robots, you've got usually =
what...4
> to 7 bright, inquisitive minds grinding away at the clever puzzles you
> create for them.

I'm a little unclear here as to your train of thought.  Are you saying
that the GM "earns his pay" by coming up with credible answers, or by
continuing to dodge the subject with situations that change the
subject?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:33 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn

On Mon, 14 Apr 97 23:09:56 -0500, you wrote:

> Why make it so complicated?

I agree.

> Skill levels are useful during character generation, but we don't need =
to
> carry them over into game play.  Here's a more simple idea: Everytime a
> single point of experience is earned...

> (a) increase the Point and Asset total by 1

This makes more sense.  Why have a listing for...

1. Skill Name
2. Attribute Level
3. Skill Level
4. Experience Level (#3 multiplied by three)
5. Target Number (#2 + #4)

...when you can do away with #3 all together.  #3 is only necessary
for character generation, converting NPC skill levels in published
adventures, and determining character competence with regards to a
salary pay scale.

> (b) divide the Points by 3, rounded down for the current Skill Level.

=46or the few times you need a "Skill Level", the above step is
sufficient.  Considering the infrequency that you need to know this,
however, it only serves to complicate things or muddle up the
character sheet by adding another column.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:38 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: 2D starmaps

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:26:15 +0200, you wrote:

> David J. Golden wrote:
> >=20
> >         Another question is how you get a one-to-one mapping from 3D =
to 2D (i.e.
> > each point in realspace corresponds to exactly one point in =
jumpspace, and
> > vice-versa).
>=20
> Since both 2D and 3D space are infinite that shouldn't bee too much of =
a
> problem. The only problem is thinking in infinities instead of finite
> numbers.

Huh?

I think Dave was referring to "how do you depict such a map using a 2D
surface such as a piece of paper"?

As it currently stands, normal space appears two dimensional so that
you can take your little ruler and make quick, easy measurements
between systems.  If riding aboard a Jump-1 trader, you can simply
count the number of hexes to your destination to determine how long it
will take.

By converting the Traveller universe to 3D, the various star systems
will no longer be located exactly x parsecs apart in normal space.
You will end up with distances on a 2D map that are something other
than a multiple of "parsecs".  The hex map will have to be thrown out
the window.

What results then is a final product that looks completely different
than the original 2D map.  Linking sectors and subsectors together
when they are published, making sure that all the original jump-1
trade routes would link up properly, would make this a cartographer's
nightmare.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:35 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: IR Masking

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:08:34 +0200 (METDST), you wrote:

> James Lindsay writes:
> >[Me]:
> >>I'd like to point out that using a parallel dimension as a heat sink
> >>wouldn't violate the law of conservation of energy. The energy isn't
> >>destroyed, it's just move to another place. Yet if that would really
> >>allow for perpetuum mobiles (how?) then it wouldn't be any good for
> >>the Traveller universe.
> >=20
> > How?  Well, if a dimension exists that you can flood with your
> > unwanted heat energy an keep it there, by the same logic the reverse
> > should be possible by drawing energy out of another dimension.  The
> > occupants of that dimension might complain a little :)
>=20
> By the same logic? Sorry, that's not the way it works.

Sure it does.  It may not be the "official" way of determining
scientific fact, but it does get everybody thinking, nonetheless :)

> I propose a new
> feature in the game background to explain some desired effect. If you
> can demonstrate that it won't work, or that it would create more =
problems=20
> than it solves, fine.

Ok, how about this.  Ships require jump fields to keep the physics and
environment of jumpspace (defined as a dimension) away from the ship
and its crew.  Collapse this field and the ship precipitates violently
out into normal space at a molecular level over a path of several
billion kilometres.  Since this field is necessary according to canon,
you cannot produce a hole in which to dump heat from our universe
without breaching this "barrier" (such as the jump field) which is
designed to prevent the dangerous interactions between two dimensions.

> But you can't introduce _new_ features to invalidate
> my suggestion. I postulate that a dimension has been found that can be
> used as a heat sink. The reverse is not true.

The reverse is not true *ONLY* because you did not include it in your
original post.  I only included it to expand the thinking regarding
transporting energy from one dimension to another.  It is not
"untrue".

> No dimension has been found
> (either because it dosen't exist, or, well, because it hasen't been =
found
> yet) that will allow anyone to draw energy from it.

And no dimension has been found that allows you to do what you are
trying to do.

> The question is, how=20
> will such a heat sink allow the drawing of energy out of thin air?

I think Leonard already covered an example for this.

*I* have the problem regarding the definition of "thin air".  In my
opinion, you shouldn't be able to move matter from one dimension to
another.  Traveller does not do this either.  A ship in jump is
isolated from the other dimension and does not interact with it (canon
states that ships in jumpspace that lose their jump drives simply
materialize violently back into normal space in itty bitty pieces).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:32:08 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

Its the templars! dany nab it

> >I agree with Leonard in that certain well established laws (The 3 Laws o=
f
> >Thermo spring to mind) which are known to be true in all known
> >circumstances, should not be violated without a *lot* of thought to the
> >consequences.
>=20
> They seem to have problems when encountering really cool temps and/or
> really few particles but as termodynamics is a classical system the latte=
r
> doesn't apply.
> With the risk of being called a lot of nasty things again I'm wondering w=
hy
> schools do not teach simple termodynamics? Newtons laws are taught in bas=
ic
> school but few seem to know about termodynamics (even on this list).
> I smell a conspiracy here=8A
>=20
>=20
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
>=20
>=20
>=20


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN=09=09=09=09=09http://www.electric-rain.net/


It takes 50,000 nuts to put a car together,
but it takes only one nut to scatter them
all over the road.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:51:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

 
 
> with low fuel requirements and brief trip times.  T-plates or something
> like them are the simplest reasonable solution, sad to say.  I admire TNE
> for fighting the good fight and going to reaction drives, but T-plates are
> part of the Traveller 'feel', and will likely be ever with us.  It's one
> of those areas where GMs will on occasion, with smart players, have to
> just say 'no' to seemingly reasonable ideas.

It's funny, when I first bought CT in the late 70's (mighta been
early 80 :-/ I never in a million years would've described the
drives used as reactionless.  The lack of a clear statement of that
meant that I called them "fusion torches."

HEPlaR was a goofy attempt to make a nearby-spectator friendly
version, which I never liked much.  Besides which, HEPlaR has to
fuse the fuel to have the KE of the exhaust balance with the PE of
the fuel (which was actually described as something closer to
propellant).

> It *would* be interesting to work out the mechanics of a system where
> delta-v cost depended on present speed wrt the nearest massive object,
> though.  Maybe I'll take a stab at it sometime soon...

Interesting idea.  I prefer nasty, dirty fusion rockets :-)

They make sensor stuff much easier to game as well (if the drive is
on, you're spotted :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 16:55:58 -0500
From: "Marcus A. Teter" <uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

<<From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
you wrote:
{my stuff snipped}
I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point (say
within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have the same
Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the same
formation they went in. I also generally assume that when doing this the
ships all calculate the jump, and cross-check each other, thus giving a very
accurate jump.>>>
- ------------------------------
I had assumed the same.  But, if the uncertainty in position is an inherent
property of jump space, such a coordination might not be possible.
Furthermore, it might make large scale attacks on a defended world quite
different than is presented in the popular literature.  If it makes such an
attack impossible, then it would not be a candidate for a Rules Variant.

What does the list say?  Can an attack be carried out against a defended
world without the benefit of jumping into the system as a fleet at the same
time?  If so, could such an attack occur with standard Traveller ship types?
 
- --
TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter
Dept. of Physics
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59715

uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norris/Gay

Harold D. Hale Said, responding to Glenn M. Goffin who asked:

>>When did we establish that Norris was gay?
>
>   GDW never just came out and said it, but if you "read between the
>lines", his relationship with his trusted aide seemed to go well beyond
>employer-employee

This is stretching things a bit beyond what Marc intended, I think, but as it
has no effect on the game,  individual referees can do what they think makes
their campaign more interesting.

Marc always used to say that Traveller players were free to choose their
character's gender and gender preference. I think we got one letter in 15
years asking about the position of gays in Imperial society...maybe two.

Loren Wiseman
     GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:13:22 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

	DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD !!!!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:27:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: H2 Storage

At 09:44 am 04/15/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Some thoughts in response to:
>
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>
>QUOTE ON
><One good reason for storing straight LH instead of embedding it in
>fiber-tanks or straight water: MASS! 1 metric ton of LH may take up more
>volume than 1 metric ton of H in H20 form, but it masses less--since the
>mass ratio of hydrogen to oxygen in water is 1:8, to get 1t of LH you have
>QUOTE OFF
>
>I have to admit, I wasn't thinking in terms of fuel for maneuvering, but
>Jump Fuel and L-Hyd tank technology.

	So was I. Whether you're using thruster plates or fusion rockets, you
still have to push around the mass of jump fuel, jump fuel tanks, jump fuel
processing equipment (you gotta get the hydrogen outta the H20, and then do
SOMETHING with the O), etc. Again, it's not volumetric efficiency that
really matters, it's mass efficiency.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1200
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1201



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: Realism and "Literary" SF role-playing
Re: 2D starmaps
1889
RE: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn
Re: low tech...the truth
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
RE: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: The Necessity of 90s technology (Was TL12-15...)
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Hand to Hand Attacks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:21:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

Quoth Solomani:
> How was Aristotle, "not a scientists" for all intents and purposes?
> Because the definition didnt exist then?  I disagree whole heartedly.
> Aristotelian science was around for almost 2500 years until the time of
> galileo and his contemporaries and academic descendents.

You are changing definitions, either out of malice or ignorance.  We do
not bestow the title of "science" on just any description of the universe,
otherwise we would have to class myths ("Zeus throws thunderbolts when
he's angry") among proper scientific literature.  Science is a _method_
as much as a corpus of knowledge.
 
> He followed the Empirical method, so his a scientist.

He did _not_ follow the empirical method, as others have already pointed
out.  Have you ever read Aristotle?  His ideas on such topics as the
motion of flung objects (he believed they moved along straight lines up
and outwards until their initial "impetus" ran out, upon which they fell
straight down), rates of fall of objects of different masses (larger ones
fall faster, he claimed), biological features of assorted animals, could
all have been _tested_, the foundation of modern science -- but they
weren't.  Aristotle was not a scientist in the precise, modern definition
of the word.  Among historians, perhaps.  Among scientists (or historians
of science), no. 

> I disagree (again, this is a habit with me :)  But since you wont accept
> aristotle as an example of science being wrong, how about phlogiston, that
> was wrong, where was the new rule for that?  How about (his name escapes
> me) <blank>  just after galileo and copernicous, he said that the sun goes
> around the earth, but everything else goes around the sun.  That was just
> plain wrong.

I am, alas, not familiar enough with the history of science to explain the
history of the phlogiston theory.  Anyone else?  I do have a good friend
working on a doctorate in the history of science at Princeton if I have to
go infoquesting.  As for the whole Ptolemaic -> Copernican shift, much of
that was produced by ever-improving instruments.  Ptolemy's system was
"science" in that it tried to fit the universe to the data, rather than
vice versa, but again it was enshrined before the modern scientific
process of opposition, independent testing, and fact-checking.  Sure
enough, when modern science started to get underway, it rapidly fell under
the assault of independent checking and theorizing.

You don't seem to understand: people thought differently back then.  ("The
past is a different country.  They do things differently there.")  The
scientific method of thought, really, is only a few centuries old.
 
> True, i cant imagine gravity being disregarded tomorrow, but it wouldnt
> surprise me if it was changed or disregarded in the future.  Whos to say
> that when we reach the speed of light (or if) that something completely
> different happens.  

So you claim that, suddenly, because of some scientist's "Eureka!" in a
lab, we will all be slung off the Earth at high velocity because gravity
no longer exists?  You have a very strange conception of the universe.
Just how much scientific education have you had?  (Does it match your
grammatical education?)  Again... we may find new results in unfamiliar
situations (near the speed of light, etc. -- though we're already
researching that regime fairly thoroughly!), but familiar, everday,
observable effects in already-explored situations _will_continue_to_exist.
To get weird effects, you will have to create weird situations.
 
> Another example, the double helix genetic model that
> people are use to, anyone who does advanced studies into biology (spec.
> genetics) will tell you that multiple models exist for it, its just that
> the double helix is the easiest to understand and "works".

Are you a biologist?  A geneticist?  Could you provide me with references
for this assertion?  Certainly life in general could evolve using
different constructs than the double helix, but we are darned certain that
_our_ brand of life, here on Earth, uses the double helix model.  I've
worked in hospitals and research laboratories, and there are going to be
some _very_ surprised scientists out there if somehow our DNA is not built
that way.  Don't you think such a major element would have been already
hashed out by now?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:41:47 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

At 03:32 pm 04/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:26 PM 4/15/97 GMT, James Lindsay wrote:
>>On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:43:58 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:
>>
>>> Science builds upon its predecessors, it does not eat them.
>>
>>In other words, the "Big 'Ol Book Of Science" only gets bigger.  We
>>don't throw away chapters that were written decades ago because we
>>learn something new about a particular subject, we simply create
>>appendixes and amendments.
>
>Welllll, not really.  Sure, Einsteinian physics didn't eat Newtonian
>physics, but quantum mech did disassemble parts of the Einsteinian view.
>Oxygen ate phlogiston; cognition ate behaviorism which ate hydraulic
>Freudianism; plate tectonics subdued catastrophism... the list goes on.

	I guess my take on this whole argument is that while the EXPLANATIONS
change, the ability to predict gets better. Thus, Newtonian physics could
predict how things behave in certain areas; Einsteinian could predict
better, and could go outside those areas. But in the areas where Newtonian
physics made good predictions, THEY WERE STILL GOOD after Einstein came
along! Just because we had a better understanding of WHY things behaved a
certain way didn't change HOW they behaved. Sure, maybe at the 12th decimal
place, there's a difference between how Newton would predict the path of my
golf ball, and how Einstein would. The ball still hit my boss, regardless.
That's why I don't play golf ...

	So if you come up with a new "physics" for Traveller, you'd better make
sure it generates the same results in the settings we already know. That
golf ball better still hit the colonel.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:46:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Realism and "Literary" SF role-playing

In a message dated 97-04-14 16:10:37 EDT, you write:

<< > 
 > (3)  The device to control thing is damaged beyond repair and can't be
aimed
 > as they wanted and the result would be obvious to them if they research it
 > further that the current state of their ship will only create a fireball
that
 > would destroy whats left of the ship if they try to use it.   Back to the
 > storyline.  ;^)  (And you can write down an exp point for that person for
 > good imagination or whatever you score exp pts for)
 
 This doesn't answer the question regarding whether or not it is
 possible to do what this player suggested; it only ignores the issue.
 You're going to need an answer the next time the players attempt to
 perform the same task. >>

See post by Eris making it impossible to use in atmosphere.  There is usually
SOME way to explain it if you use your imagination.   ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:46:43 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 2D starmaps

At 10:39 pm 04/15/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:26:15 +0200, you wrote:
>
>> David J. Golden wrote:
>> > 
>> >         Another question is how you get a one-to-one mapping from 3D
to 2D (i.e.
>> > each point in realspace corresponds to exactly one point in jumpspace,
and
>> > vice-versa).
>> 
>> Since both 2D and 3D space are infinite that shouldn't bee too much of a
>> problem. The only problem is thinking in infinities instead of finite
>> numbers.
>
>Huh?
>
>I think Dave was referring to "how do you depict such a map using a 2D
>surface such as a piece of paper"?

	Not quite. I mean how do you decide the mapping between 2D and 3D space.
It is not mathematically possible for each point in realspace to correspond
to one and only one point in jumpspace. Yes, they're both infinite, but
they're different levels of infinity, and NOT equal.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:56:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: 1889

Eris Reddoch (et al.) said:

>> How do you feel about "Ether Propellers?"  I'm just going to *have* do
that
>> one of these days!  
>
>I have always *dreamed* of playing in a Space:1899 game!  The whole idea
>is just too lovely.

It was a blast working on it. I particularly enjoyed the fact that even I
(GDW's most math-challenged employee) was up to the rigors of the game's
"cannonball through the window" physics.

I'm just sorry my "City in the Middle of Africa founded by A Lost Roman
Legion(TM)" adventure was never published. Or the "Hollow Earth (tm)"
adventure. Or the series of adventures based on thwarting the schemes of the
Inscrutable, Insidious and Unscupulous Oriental Mastermindt (tm applied for).

Sometime, I must tell you of my Space: 1889 character, Edmund Blackadder, aka
"the Marshal Ney of Crime" and his henchman Baldric, aka "the Chester Alan
Arthur of Crime" 

Sigh...

Loren Wiseman
    GDw Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:35:29 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Holes in Traveller consistency

On Wednesday (In New Zealand Anyway) Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

Interesting idea.  I prefer nasty, dirty fusion rockets :-)

And I'd have to say Bang on with gumboots on :)

Point that sucker away from me radboy!

As a small note they do need to be cheaper is all!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:30:58 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

In a message dated 1997-04-15 08:23, Mike Sellers wrote:

>Aristotle was a great thinker, but he was not a scientist in modern terms.
>Pythagoras, Archimedes, or ... nuts, the fellow who figured the earth's
>circumference from shadows in Egypt... might be, but not Aristotle.  

Are you thinking of Eratosthenes (c.275-c.195 BC) who devised a world map 
and a system of chronology and measured the earth's circumference and 
tilt and the size and distance from earth of the sun and moon?

or perhaps Aristarchus of Samos (c.310-c.230 BC) who made crude estimates 
of the size of the sun and moon and advocated a Heliocentric universe 18 
centuries before Copernicus?

Sometimes I wonder what other amazing discoveries were made in the 
ancient world. I wish the library of Alexandria didn't burn...

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:06:55 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn

> This makes more sense.  Why have a listing for...
> 
> 1. Skill Name
> 2. Attribute Level
> 3. Skill Level
> 4. Experience Level (#3 multiplied by three)
> 5. Target Number (#2 + #4)

My character sheets have a listing for UPP--just like everyone 
else's.  And, my skills section looks like this:

Skill-Level                    Exp.   XP   Base Characteristic
- -----------------             -----   ----   ------------------------
Pistol-1                          3              Dex (10)



This give me the skill and level, the experience score, a place to 
put xp points for that skill, the base characteristic for that skill, 
and the target number for that skill given the character is not 
wounded.

All of this at a glance.  I don't know what you people are talking 
about--complicated?

Kenneth.

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:27:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: low tech...the truth

In a message dated 97-04-15 02:03:08 EDT, you write:

<< 
 "* Lippisch P13a:  This one takes the prize (any prize).  It was a
 ramjet-powered, sharply swept delta, with the cockpit built into the tail
 fin.  It was powered by coal gas generated from solid fuel, and had a
 nominal design speed of 1650 km/h. Yes, you read that right -- a
 coal-powered supersonic fighter.  A small rocket engine was provided for
 take-off.  Alas, it never flew.  The DM-1 glider, built along the same
 general lines and intended to validate the airframe design, was completed
 after the war and test-flown in the US; some results were published in
 _Lippisch P13a and Experimental DM-1_ by Hans-Peter Dabrowski (Schiffer
 Military History; ISBN 0-88740-479-0).  Aerodynamic testing in a
 wind-tunnel took place at Langley field, by what was then NACA, in 1946.
 Results were "disappointing", but led eventually to the successful delta
 wing concept. "
 
 	Talk about steampunk..a coal-fired supersonic fighter.
 
 
 Bruce Johnson
 University of Arizona
 College of Pharmacy
 Information Technology Group
  >>
This reminds me of "The Difference Engine" by Bruce Sterling and William
Gibson.  Babbages engine actually became like our computer system of today
and changed the face of the middle 19th century.  An interesting read for all
of you interested in the "steampunk"/Jules Verne  thingy.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:30:45 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

In a message dated 1997-04-15 04:01, Anders Backman wrote:

>>I agree with Leonard in that certain well established laws (The 3 Laws of
>>Thermo spring to mind) which are known to be true in all known
>>circumstances, should not be violated without a *lot* of thought to the
>>consequences.
>
>They seem to have problems when encountering really cool temps and/or
>really few particles but as termodynamics is a classical system the latter
>doesn't apply.
>With the risk of being called a lot of nasty things again I'm wondering =
why
>schools do not teach simple termodynamics? Newtons laws are taught in =
basic
>school but few seem to know about termodynamics (even on this list).
>I smell a conspiracy here=8A

I will try not to be offended by your remark, and call you nasty =
things.

I do know a little about thermodynamics, as I took a third year =
University Thermodynamics course not once, but twice. :-)

When I said the 3 Laws of Thermo where true in all known =
circumstances, perhaps I spoke hastily. I still do not recall being =
told that there are "exceptions" to them. You see, the Thermodynamics =
course I took was an Engineering course, and wasn't very theoretical =
in nature. Just a lot of refridgeration cycles and heat pumps and =
stuff like that...

<sarcasm>
If the 3 Laws are not true in *all* circumstances, I *apologize* for =
making myself look stupid and forgetting that in science there are NO =
absolutes.
</sarcasm>

Anders, did you have your cup of coffee this morning?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Glenn Hoppe =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ /--- =
MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Eschew =
Obfuscation =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:34:53 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

We could always use the random roll to determine the jump conditions at 
that time for that place.  This means that a fleet would all have the same 
roll if they jumped together but could have different rolls if the jumped 
an hour apart (for example).

This would still allow us to use the standard rules without major changes 
that affect all ship jumps such as spending extra time plotting jump to 
make them more of a mean duration (and so generally of a fixed length 
rather than at random) which I think is uncool because everyone would do 
this and it would mean better reliability.

- ----------
From: 	Marcus A. Teter[SMTP:uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu]
Sent: 	Wednesday, 16 April 1997 09:55
To: 	Traveller-digest
Subject: 	Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

<<From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
you wrote:
{my stuff snipped}
I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point (say
within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have the same
Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the same
formation they went in. I also generally assume that when doing this the
ships all calculate the jump, and cross-check each other, thus giving a 
very
accurate jump.>>>
- ------------------------------
I had assumed the same.  But, if the uncertainty in position is an inherent
property of jump space, such a coordination might not be possible.
Furthermore, it might make large scale attacks on a defended world quite
different than is presented in the popular literature.  If it makes such an
attack impossible, then it would not be a candidate for a Rules Variant.

What does the list say?  Can an attack be carried out against a defended
world without the benefit of jumping into the system as a fleet at the same
time?  If so, could such an attack occur with standard Traveller ship 
types?

- --
TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter
Dept. of Physics
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59715

uphhsmt@gemini.oscs.montana.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:30:54 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: The Necessity of 90s technology (Was TL12-15...)

In a message dated 1997-04-15 13:18, John R. Snead wrote:

>Gamers aren't morons, and we gain little by underestimating folks.  I'm an
>anthropologist who writes RPGs, not a physicist or an engineer, and
>something more than 90s + flash will not make me stop playing Traveller. 
>Look around, there are many options out there in SF literature between 90s
>+ flash and a Vingean post singularity culture. RuneQuest is a popular
>game, if has a very unique and non-modern fantasy world.  If gamers can
>comprehend Glorantha why not a less conservative Imperium? 
>
>Comments?

I think a lot of Science Fiction (and Traveller in particular) 
allegorizes the modern world.

viz:

USA/Russia               Imperium/Zhodani
Collapse of USSR         Rebellion Era
GenX angst               Virus Era
Worship of Technology
& Cultural Imperialism   Borg

and (to be even more controversial)

Utopian Communism/Rampant Capitalism    Federation/Ferrengi

In truth, as you say, much sci-fi puts more thought into technology and 
the impact on technology on society. I guess the focus of traveller 
hasn't been so much the *technology* as the *socio-political background*.

Look at the LBB's. They didn't have rules for how to shoot at a vehicle, 
space battles and combat was *very* abstracted. What was important was 
the cultures of the Imperium, the politics of feudalism, and the 
economics of space travel.

It wasn't until the second and third editions that details of gadgetry 
got more attention.

The thing is, Traveller carries a lot of baggage. The Traveller 
background is based on science fiction in the same vein as Asimov's 
Foundation, and other pre-infoage science fiction. It's difficult to 
reconcile that vision of the future with the prevailing one.

But we *know* from experience, both visions of the future will be wrong!

So I say, keep the Imperium and the Traveller universe as is. No-one's 
stopping anyone from using Traveller rules to model a more "modern" 
vision of what future society will be like.

Traveller isn't 90s tech + flash, it's 70s tech + 90s tweaks + flash. And 
I kinda like it that way!

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:30:50 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

In a message dated 1997-04-15 00:57, Solomani wrote:

>How was Aristotle, "not a scientists" for all intents and purposes?
>Because the definition didnt exist then?  I disagree whole heartedly.
>Aristotelian science was around for almost 2500 years until the time of
>galileo and his contemporaries and academic descendents.
>
>He followed the Empirical method, so his a scientist.

No Way. Aristotle was a philosopher. He most certainly did *not* follow 
the empirical method.

The scientific method wasn't prevelant until the 17th century. British 
empiricism was founded by John Locke in the _Essay Concerning Human 
Understanding_ in 1690.

>> No.  We only learn new rules for special cases.  Newton was not "wrong":
>> just imprecise.  We now have better rules for handling very small or very
>> fast objects... but Newton is as accurate as most folks need for everyday
>> ranges of speed and size.  As Leonard already said, Einstein's equations
>> simplify into Newton's for "normal" ranges of mass and speed.
>
>I disagree (again, this is a habit with me :)  But since you wont accept
>aristotle as an example of science being wrong, how about phlogiston, that
>was wrong, where was the new rule for that?

The Oxygen Theory of Combustion. See rant below.

>How about (his name escapes
>me) <blank>  just after galileo and copernicous, he said that the sun goes
>around the earth, but everything else goes around the sun.  That was just
>plain wrong.

It also wasn't science. It was theology. That person couldn't believe 
that the Earth *wasn't* the centre of the universe, so came up with a 
complicated model to account for the motions of the sun and planets that 
kept the Earth at the centre. 

You seem to see science in terms of black and white. It is either "right" 
or it turns out to be "wrong". It is impossible to model reality exacty. 
It is impossible to prove a model of reality to be "right".

What is possible, is to develop a model of reality, through mathematical 
formulae, which predicts reasonably well how reality works.

The phlogiston theory was a hypothesis regarding combustion which Johann 
Becher postulated that a colourless, odorless, weightless substance is 
present in all flammable material. When the material burns, the ash is 
the true material and the phlogiston is given off into the air. Lavoisier 
proposed the oxygen theory of combustion which became the new rule.

Just because there was a new rule and the phlogiston theory fell out of 
favour didn't mean that things stopped burning, and ash stopped being 
formed after flammable materials burned. The new theory happened to model 
the reality of combustion better, and explained oxygen's role in 
respiration to boot.

<more snippage>
>Please dont misunderstand me, im not flaming you or writing you off, its
>just that your average joe puts a little to much faith into science for
>little reason.

Too much faith into science for little reason? I will try not to read to 
much into that. I think I have reason to have faith in science, as right 
now I remain seated in my chair and I am not spinning off the earth into 
space.

I think people put too much faith in *technology*, but so far, science is 
doing a pretty good job of explaining most macroscopic (human sized) 
phenomena. The problem has been explaining things at the extremes of 
size, in the microscopic and cosmic scales.

So to nudge this topic more into Traveller, I appreciate it when very few 
basic scientific "truths" are violated to account for Traveller 
technology, and when they are (eg. Jump drives, anti-grav) I appreciate 
some thought put into a self-consistant pseudo-scientific model of how 
and why the technology does what it does.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:06:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Hand to Hand Attacks

T4 (pg. 55) gives us a number of melee attack forms.  
Among these are: 

Attack Form               Difficulty/Skill                   Dam 
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Unarmed Strike         Average/Brawling            1D
Tackle                       Difficult/Brawling              Spec
Grapple                     Difficult/Brawling              Spec
Armed Strike             Average/appr. Skill           by Weap
Fencing                     Average/Fencing              by Weap
Pure Defense            Special                             Spec



I noticed additional attack forms in the TNE main book, and, noting 
that they are easily converted to T4, I am listing them below.

Next game session, I plan to make these attack forms availble for my 
players.

I just did a quick conversion to T4 basing my decisions on the rules 
in the TNE book.  You may want to change some of the conversion 
choices that I've made below.  



1)  Block:
This is different from the Pure Defense choice above in that 
a character may combine a block with an offensive attack 
routine using the multiple action rule.

Whenever a character is successfully attacked by some form of melee 
attack, he may choose an attempt at blocking it.  If the attack is an 
armed attack, then the defender must use a weapon of some sort to 
block with.  (You cannot use your arm to block a sword blow.)

The task to attempt a block is:  Formidable test of Brawling

Success means that the attack is blocked, but the block action still 
counts against a character's End pool (if you use the optional 
pools).  Spectacular Success means that the block does not count 
against the character's End pool.  If the block is against an armed 
melee weapon, then use the appropriate skill of the weapon being used 
to block.  The Brawling skill may be used if an improvised weapon is 
used.



2)  Leaping Kick:
A leaping kick is an attempt to put more force behind a kick by 
throwing oneself feet-first at the enemy.  When figuring the End 
pool, this attack routine costs two points.

The task to attempt a leaping kick is:  Difficult test of Dexterity

Success means that the attacker has hit the enemy and has managed to 
land on his feet.  The target attacked takes double normal 
strike damage (1 D6 x 2).

Failure means that both the target and the attacker are knocked down. 
Damage equal to 1 D6 is inflicted on both of them.

A character who is not surprised may try to avoid a leaping kick.  If 
the attack is avoided, the attacker either lands on his feet or 
crashes to the ground based on his original attack throw.  The 
avoidance roll is considered an attack, unless SS is rolled, with 
regard to the End pool.

The task to avoid a leaping kick is:  Difficult test of Dexterity



3)  Kick:
The kick attack form is separated from the strike attack form on pg. 
55 of T4.  It's harder to do but also delivers more damage.  This 
attack routine counts as two points against a character's End pool.  
Damage from a kick is 1.5D.

The task to attempt a kick is:  Difficult test of Brawling.



4)  Strangle:
A strangle is handled like a grapple (see rules pg. 55, T4), with a 
few exceptions.  (A) The strangle attempt may be blocked by an 
Average test of Dexterity.  (B) The strangle attempt causes 1 point 
of damage to the victim each combat round which is applied solely to 
the victim's End score.  When the victim's End score reaches 0, he is 
either unconscious or dead at the attacker's discretion (Strangled 
characters will usually fall unconscious before they die--the 
attacker can, at that point, decide whether to kill the victim or 
not.  Alternatively, the GM can devise a check--a suggest roll 
against the victim's End--to see if the character is dead.)  (C) Use 
of a garotte will double the damage inflicted by a strangle attack to 
2 points per combat round.

If the initial block of the strangle is unsuccessful, the only way to 
save a character is if he is successful breaking away from the 
strangle attempt.  This is handled the same as breaking away from a 
grapple attempt--which is covered under grappling in the T4 rules.



5)  Throws:
A throw is a defensive move and can only be attempted by a character 
who is successfully attacked by an unarmed strike attack, a kick, a 
grapple, or a strangle.  

The character must first make a block task roll for the specific 
attack form against him.  This block sets up the throw and must be 
successful before the throw can be attempted.  If the block is not 
successful, the attack on the character is carried out normally, and 
the throw may not be attempted.

If the block is successful, the throw can be attempted, and this 
attempt cannot be avoided by the object of the throw.

The task to attempt a throw is:  Formidable test of Brawling

Success means that the oppenent is thrown to the ground and suffers 
1 D6 damage.  Failure means that the throw is unsuccessful, but the 
block remains successful.  

Since grapples cannot be blocked, a character must first break free 
before attempting the throw.  The block/throw combination attempt is 
considered one action, and when this is attempted, successful or not, 
one point in the character's End pool is used up.

Victims of a throw can attempt to limit the damage from the throw by 
rolling a task to controll their landing.

The task to control landing is:  Difficult test of Dexterity

If successful, damage from the throw is halved.  If, on the other 
hand, the task to attempt the throw was a spectacular success, no 
roll to control landing is allowed.  The control landing roll is not 
considered an action against the victim's End pool.



6)  Diving Blows:
A diving blow is an attempt to throw oneself at the enemy and knock 
him off his feet.  Blocking is not possible, but avoidance is.  
Unlike other melee attack forms, the diving blow always succeeds 
unless the target is successful with his avoidance roll.  A diving 
blow counts as two points against a character's End Pool.

If a character is surprised, the diving blow always hits without 
error.  If the object of the diving blow is not surprised, he may 
make a roll to avoid.

The task to attempt avoidance is:  Average test of Dexterity

If the blow is avoided, the attacker falls to the ground, having 
missed the target.  If the attack is not avoided, the diving blow 
automatically hits.

When a diving blow hits, compare two scores to see who is knocked 
down.  If 1 D6 + (2 x End) of the attacker is greater than Str + End 
of the defender, the defender is knocked down and suffers damage 
equal to the difference between the two values.  Otherwise, the 
attacker is knocked down and suffers damage equal to the difference 
between the two values.  Defenders who are surprised use only their 
End for comparison.



This is a pretty straight forward conversion from TNE to T4.  I've 
made some changes because of the hit point/damage systems in the two 
games are on different scales.  

If you have any comments, hit me with them.

Kenneth.

  



 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1201
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1202



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Empress Marva
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn
Re: low tech...the truth
Re: Heat sinks
Antimatter containment
Task systems Redux
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Task System Redux
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Norris/Gay
Re: Spectacular success/fail with KBv2.0
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: 2D starmaps
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: Task System Redux

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:45:06 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Empress Marva

In a message dated 1997-04-15 15:54, Lewis Roberts wrote:

>Hi,
>Does anyone know whom the Empress Marva Far Trader is named after?
>I didn't know if she was an empress of the Imperium or something else.

That's Empress Marava. Yes she was the 14th "Emperor of the Flag" of the 
Imperium.

Quoth Supplement 8: Library Data (A-M)

"Marava: Born 551, proclaimed empress after defeating Usuti in the Third 
Battle of Arakoine (620), killed in battle in 620"

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 18:21:20 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

On 04/14/97 at 03:31 PM,  Danny_M._Moody@mailhost.bridge.com (Danny M.
Moody) said:

> Not only that, but how 'low-tech' it is.  3000 yrs is a long time; long
> enough  to get rid of those messy wires and electrodes implanted in your
> head (yech!).

Don't be so parochial!  In 3000 years, there might be nothing *but* wires
and electrodes..<wink>..although I doubt things will go *that* direction.
;->  

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 18:03:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

On 04/14/97 at 11:12 PM,  Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> said:

> Maybe here is the solution to the killer lifeboat problem?  A bit of my
> rusty old calculus gives a ship's velocity v = (2Pt/m)^0.5, where t is
> the number of seconds of continuous thrust, m the mass in kg of the ship
> itself, and P the power being applied continuously to the thruster
> plates. (Obviously, this assumes 100% efficiency, which our
> photon-producing plates do not achieve.  Season to taste).

v = (2Pt/m)^0.5


Chepe, in what terms are you expressing v?  Meters per second?

P : Engine power in (in MW? KW? what?)

t : seconds of constant thrust

m : Ship's mass in Kg

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 18:18:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn

On 04/15/97 at 01:19 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> > Why make it so complicated?

> What's so complicated?  

> When a character goes up due to experience, his experience score is 
> raised one point (which raises his target number one point).

> After he gets three such raises, his skill level is increased by one.

Ken, we're saying the same thing.

I just don't see a need for maintaining a seperate column for the 1's and
2's between skill levels.  Personally, I'm not going to use skill levels at
all after character generation anyway.

> Am I missing something?

Maybe that we're saying the same thing.  I keep the skill level in my
example (take another look at it), for compatability with all those folks
that can't bare to part with them.  ;-> Personally, it's the number of
skill points that are important, and I'll refer to someone as having a
Pilot-10 or Medic-7, where the number refers directly to the skill points.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:02:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: low tech...the truth

In a message dated 97-04-15 02:03:08 EDT, you write:

<< 
 "* Lippisch P13a:  This one takes the prize (any prize).  It was a
 ramjet-powered, sharply swept delta, with the cockpit built into the tail
 fin.  It was powered by coal gas generated from solid fuel, and had a
 nominal design speed of 1650 km/h. Yes, you read that right -- a
 coal-powered supersonic fighter.  A small rocket engine was provided for
 take-off.  Alas, it never flew.  The DM-1 glider, built along the same
 general lines and intended to validate the airframe design, was completed
 after the war and test-flown in the US; some results were published in
 _Lippisch P13a and Experimental DM-1_ by Hans-Peter Dabrowski (Schiffer
 Military History; ISBN 0-88740-479-0).  Aerodynamic testing in a
 wind-tunnel took place at Langley field, by what was then NACA, in 1946.
 Results were "disappointing", but led eventually to the successful delta
 wing concept. "
 
 	Talk about steampunk..a coal-fired supersonic fighter.
 
 
 Bruce Johnson
 University of Arizona
 College of Pharmacy
 Information Technology Group
  >>
BTW thnaks Bruce, that was interesting!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:50:56 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Heat sinks

On 04/14/97 at 09:10 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> > Ah yes, but what if the only parallel universe(s) we can interact with have
> > the same 3k background as ours, having been formed by the "big-bang" at the
> > same time?

> Then it's gonna take a *long* time to cool your ship to close enough 3K
> to hide against the 3K background. Rate of heat flow goes down as the
> temp diff goes down.

Right, so even if you can access parallel universes they don't help you
with the cooling problem.  You don't think I *want* to endorse this method
do you? ;-> I'm not looking for perpetual motion machines either. 


Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:55:59 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Antimatter containment

On 04/14/97 at 11:09 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> > Maybe so, but God help the poor sods in an A-M equipped ship when the power
> > goes down...

> Not really. That's what *batteries* are for. And most designs are such
> that they won't "leak" in freefall anyway.

> Now if you get an interior hit in the antimatter storage, *that's* a
> problem. 

Just an idea...could we store anti-H2 molecules in a bucky-ball cage?  The
repulsion should keep the AM centered inside the carbon shell until it's
broken by heat or shock.  Depending on what level of sensitivity we come up
with, this could be a fairly safe method of storing and transporting
AM..."Pump 10 gallons of AM-BB's into my tank, I've got a run to Mars
tomorrow." ;->

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:26:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Task systems Redux

On 04/15/97 at 01:17 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>  As I don't plan on using the tasksystem (though good compared to T4 it
> is!) maybe I shouldn't meddle but why keep skill levels at all when
> attribute + xps is your target number? Because the char gen system has
> skills? Then convert each skill to 3 xps and be done with it.

That *was* my point.  The skill levels can be determined if somebody feels
a need to see them.  I think Ken is more tied to the old system than he's
willing to admit. ;-> 

Personally, I'm going to use my aptitude system...not the one Ken dedicated
to me...<g>..my own version for the PBEM I'll be starting this summer. 
I'll post how it works later, no I'm not going to be campaigning for it.
<g>  I plan to  evaluate how well it works after play testing for a while,
tweeking it (or dropping it entirely), and report back to the list.    

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:47:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

On 04/16/97 at 12:55 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> said:

> I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point
> (say within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have
> the same Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the
> same formation they went in. I also generally assume that when doing this
> the ships all calculate the jump, and cross-check each other, thus giving
> a very accurate jump.

This has only come up a few times in games I've run, but here's the method
I've used.

1.  All ships must be using Refined Fuel.

2.  All ships must have the same course and vector leading up to the jump.

3.  All ships must be making a jump equal to or less than their maximum
rated jump.

4.  All ships begin the jump-injection on a single signal.

5.  One Astrogator does the lock on and transmits the data to the other
ships, and they all jump together with as little variance in timing as
possible.

If all these conditions are met, then the ships emerge at the other end
within 7-2d6 minutes of ETA.  The "Time in Jump" (TIJ)..or ETA..is still
160+2d6 hours.  Ships emerge in the same formation as when they jumped. 
Entire fleets *can't* coordinate well enough to do this, but small
squadrons and divisions can.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:04:30 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> You are changing definitions, either out of malice or ignorance.  We do
> not bestow the title of "science" on just any description of the universe,
> otherwise we would have to class myths ("Zeus throws thunderbolts when
> he's angry") among proper scientific literature.  Science is a _method_
> as much as a corpus of knowledge.

bzzzt wrong. Im not a scientist, not by a long shot, but i am a student of
science and its social definitions, workings and impact.  For all intenst
and purposes Aristotle was a scientists, perhaps not by what we are a
familiar with, but he was nontheless the forefather of people like
Galileo, Newton and Eienstein.  

Your statement can be compared to saying something like "primitive man
isnt human"  no, thats wrong there human, they may not be Homo Sapien (or
whatever the term for modern man is), they may not look like men, they
may not act like men but there still men.


>  
> > He followed the Empirical method, so his a scientist.
> 
> He did _not_ follow the empirical method, as others have already pointed
> out.  Have you ever read Aristotle?  His ideas on such topics as the
> motion of flung objects (he believed they moved along straight lines up
> and outwards until their initial "impetus" ran out, upon which they fell
> straight down), rates of fall of objects of different masses (larger ones
> fall faster, he claimed), biological features of assorted animals, could
> all have been _tested_, the foundation of modern science -- but they
> weren't.  Aristotle was not a scientist in the precise, modern definition
> of the word.  Among historians, perhaps.  Among scientists (or historians
> of science), no. 
> 

Actually Aristotle wasnt a modern scientists, and yes i have read
Aristotle.  Your being whats termed, "whiggish".  Your looking at
Aristotle through modern paradigms, which is wrong.  In his time he was
effectively, what we would term, a scientist.  As were some of his
contemporaries.  

> > I disagree (again, this is a habit with me :)  But since you wont accept
> > aristotle as an example of science being wrong, how about phlogiston, that
> > was wrong, where was the new rule for that?  How about (his name escapes
> > me) <blank>  just after galileo and copernicous, he said that the sun goes
> > around the earth, but everything else goes around the sun.  That was just
> > plain wrong.
> 
> I am, alas, not familiar enough with the history of science to explain the
> history of the phlogiston theory.  Anyone else?  I do have a good friend
[snip]

Well, until you do know what is, how can you argue at all?

> You don't seem to understand: people thought differently back then.  ("The
> past is a different country.  They do things differently there.")  The
> scientific method of thought, really, is only a few centuries old.

I do understand, more than you can imagine.  Your quibbling over a modern
definition of a scientist, which you havent defined yet, so i will
a Scienctist, is nne versed in or devoted to science.

So whats Science?, Science is the systematic study of man and his
environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.

So, where does aristotle fail?  Just because he didnt use an electronic
microscope and didnt wear a white jacket?  He was limited to is own
primitive instruments and his own physical limitations but he formulated
theories on what he observed in the universe.  His a scientist in my
books, and his also considered a scientist but most scientific historians 
ive read.

>  
> > True, i cant imagine gravity being disregarded tomorrow, but it wouldnt
> > surprise me if it was changed or disregarded in the future.  Whos to say
> > that when we reach the speed of light (or if) that something completely
> > different happens.  
> 
> So you claim that, suddenly, because of some scientist's "Eureka!" in a
> lab, we will all be slung off the Earth at high velocity because gravity
> no longer exists?  You have a very strange conception of the universe.

You just cant read.  Where did i say what you just stated?

You also seem to hold the Anarchists method of discovery (Eureka) in
contempt.  This sort of discovery does happen though, and it has happened
in history - people just think of things, no extensive research no
nothing, it just comes to them.

> Just how much scientific education have you had?  (Does it match your
> grammatical education?)  Again... we may find new results in unfamiliar

Why such stabs at my education and character?  I havnt shown you any
disrespect.  What, am i getting a bit close to the truth am i?  Starting
to feel a sting are you?

Well, ive never had an email kill file before, but i think i'll make one
and add you to it "Mr. Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  GURPS fan, Amiga user,
Shakespearean scholar, actor and director."

> Are you a biologist?  A geneticist?  Could you provide me with references
> for this assertion?  Certainly life in general could evolve using
> different constructs than the double helix, but we are darned certain that
> _our_ brand of life, here on Earth, uses the double helix model.  I've
> worked in hospitals and research laboratories, and there are going to be
> some _very_ surprised scientists out there if somehow our DNA is not built
> that way.  Don't you think such a major element would have been already
> hashed out by now?

No. Not at all. Im not a geneticist, but we dont know everything and its
short sighted to believe for what momment that things dont and cant
change.  *sigh*



c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Old is always 15 years from now

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:58:45 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

On 04/15/97 at 06:13 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:


> 	DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD !!!!

Hee! Hee! While I have *no* love for TSR, I can't say I have a great deal
of respect for WOTC either.  <sigh>  Industry shakeout and contraction
isn't always a bad thing, but when the best known..and supposedly best
financed company in the industry gets bought out by a second line
player..that's not a good thing.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:51:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Task System Redux

On 04/15/97 at 10:39 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

> > (b) divide the Points by 3, rounded down for the current Skill Level.

> For the few times you need a "Skill Level", the above step is sufficient. 
> Considering the infrequency that you need to know this, however, it only
> serves to complicate things or muddle up the character sheet by adding
> another column.

I agree with you. Yeah, I'm the guy that suggested the Skill Level column,
but that was to placate the old die hards that *have* to have a skill
level. <g>  

Truth be told, I'm not even going to have traditional Skill Levels *during*
character generation. Each time a PC get's a specific skill the player will
figure the addition to the Skill Point total and just put that on the
character sheet. Of course, my system is a little more involved, but I'm
not ready to talk about that right now.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> 
> 	DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD !!!!

No.  Its just joined forces with another witch.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:01:58 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Norris/Gay

Loren writes:

>Marc always used to say that Traveller players were free to choose 
>their character's gender and gender preference.

   Sex and sexual orientation has always been a tricky topic in RPGs. 
Gotta watch out for those roving gangs of fundamentalists afterall. 
Still, *if* Norris were gay (and that was my conclusion) it makes him a
far more interesting character.  A short of Richard the Lionhearted
figure in space.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:25:57 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Spectacular success/fail with KBv2.0

>> One thing I suggest is that if a character rolls 3 or more sixes on a task,
>> but under the target number, the task is a regular failure but not a
>> spectacular failure. Without this rule highly skilled characters cannot
>> fail most tasks normally, only spectacularly. With this rule highly skilled
>> characters do better even in failure.
>
>I disagree.  Highly skilled characters should have a small chance of
>failure--after all, they are highy skilled and know what the heck
>they are doing.

I am not suggesting that highly skilled characters don't know what they are
doing. On the contrary, my suggestion will benefit highly skilled
characters.

Perhaps I did not explain it well. Consider the following two characters; a
skilled character A with attribute 8 and skill 3, and a superb character B
with attribute F and skill 6. A's target number is 17 and B's is 33. The
only way A and B can fail a 3-dice Average task is to roll 18; a special
failure. So A and B perform identically on average tasks. Both characters
also have exactly the same probablility of getting a spectacular failure on
all tasks. I don't like this; I think that B with a target number of 33
should perform better than A with a target number of 17. I think that B is
good enough to minimize what would be a catastrophe for an ordinary person.

My suggestion is: when you roll 3 or more sixes to first compare the total
against the target number. If the total is less than or equal to the target
number, the task is a normal failure and not a spectacular failure. The
task is a spectacular failure only if the roll is both 3 or more sixes AND
above the target number. Think of it this way; a task roll of 3 or more
sixes is automatic failure. If you roll automatic failure and above your
target number as well you get spectacular failure.

Look at how that affects the earlier example; on a roll of 18 with 3 dice,
A fails spectacularly but B fails only normally. In fact, B cannot
spectacularly fail an Average, Difficult, or even a Formidable roll. B can
spectacularly fail a Staggering task, but the chance of spectacular failure
is less than A's because B has to roll at least 5 sixes.

KBv2.0 already gives highly skilled characters a better chance to roll
spectacular success. I agree with this. What I am suggesting is to also
give then a lesser chance to roll spectacular failure.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:51:35 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
> 
> It's funny, when I first bought CT in the late 70's (mighta been
> early 80 :-/ I never in a million years would've described the
> drives used as reactionless.  The lack of a clear statement of that
> meant that I called them "fusion torches."

That's because the CT rules never really nailed down what maneuver drives
were; the only clues were nozzle-looking things at the aft end of (some) 
deckplans.  In my way-back-when CT campaign, I waffled...at first, I said
they were fusion rockets, then decided that I wanted to be able to land
ships without starting firestorms, and moved to reactionless thrusters.

> HEPlaR was a goofy attempt to make a nearby-spectator friendly
> version, which I never liked much.  Besides which, HEPlaR has to
> fuse the fuel to have the KE of the exhaust balance with the PE of
> the fuel (which was actually described as something closer to
> propellant).

And that's the other big reason for moving to thrusters.  HEPlaR is just
about at (or even a bit over) the theoretical maximum ISp you can derive
from fusion; even so, Travelleresque ships only get 60ish G-hours of
thrust out of HEPlaR.  This rather seriously breaks the canon/traditional
feel of space combat and in-system travel.  To get any higher performance,
you need a more energetic process (matter-antimatter annihilation, for
example, would buy about 15 times the performance per unit mass of fuel),
or a hand-wave reactionless drive.  As I and others have discussed, the
latter runs afoul of conservation laws.

> > It *would* be interesting to work out the mechanics of a system where
> > delta-v cost depended on present speed wrt the nearest massive object,
> > though.  Maybe I'll take a stab at it sometime soon...
> 
> Interesting idea.  I prefer nasty, dirty fusion rockets :-)

*cough, sniff*  Yes.  Yes, I'm quite sure you do.

:)

> They make sensor stuff much easier to game as well (if the drive is
> on, you're spotted :-)

Yeah, blasting glowing plasma out for a hundred km is a nice way to say
"Howdy!" to a whole system. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:50:54 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: 2D starmaps

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:26:15 +0200, you wrote:
> 
> > Since both 2D and 3D space are infinite that shouldn't bee too much of a
> > problem. The only problem is thinking in infinities instead of finite
> > numbers.
> 
> Huh?
>
> I think Dave was referring to "how do you depict such a map using a 2D
> surface such as a piece of paper"?

Oops... Misunderstanding... What I meant was that theoretically you
should be able to do a one-to-one mapping of 3D to 2D space, but don't
look to me for the answer to that question.

> As it currently stands, normal space appears two dimensional so that
> you can take your little ruler and make quick, easy measurements
> between systems.  If riding aboard a Jump-1 trader, you can simply
> count the number of hexes to your destination to determine how long it
> will take.
> 
> By converting the Traveller universe to 3D, the various star systems
> will no longer be located exactly x parsecs apart in normal space.
> You will end up with distances on a 2D map that are something other
> than a multiple of "parsecs".  The hex map will have to be thrown out
> the window.

They might still be x parsecs away in normal space (if you want to), but
as you said they won't be confined to hexes in the 2D map anymore.

> What results then is a final product that looks completely different
> than the original 2D map.  Linking sectors and subsectors together
> when they are published, making sure that all the original jump-1
> trade routes would link up properly, would make this a cartographer's
> nightmare.

The reason I don't want to go from 2D to 3D unless my players want it...
:) Unless ofcourse someone does the work for me?

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:27:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:30:45 -0600
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
> 
> I do know a little about thermodynamics, as I took a third year =
> University Thermodynamics course not once, but twice. :-)

My own degree (BS, appropriately enough) is in applied chemistry, during
the course of acquiring which I took Physical Chemistry, Thermodynamics,
and Industrial Chemistry.  Some of it has even survived the subsequent 12
years of near-total neglect. :)

> When I said the 3 Laws of Thermo where true in all known =
> circumstances, perhaps I spoke hastily. I still do not recall being =
> told that there are "exceptions" to them. You see, the Thermodynamics =
> course I took was an Engineering course, and wasn't very theoretical =
> in nature. Just a lot of refridgeration cycles and heat pumps and =
> stuff like that...

I still remember my delight when I truly understood that a refridgerator
*really is* a heat engine running backward. :)

The trick to the laws of thermodynamics is to understand that they are
*statistical* in nature, that is, based on probabilities, stabilized by
the Law of Large Numbers.  For systems of less than a few million
particles, they become less and less aplicable, as individual variancnes
in behavior among the particles begin to rise above the 'noise' level of
mass-average behavior.  Also, being statistical, the laws *can*, *very
theoretically*, fail on the macro scale.  There is no physical law
*preventing* that teak kettle full of water from freezing solid when you
put it on the stove.  However, and my p-chem prof actually *derived this*
for us (!), if the entire mass of the known universe were composed of
teapots on stoves, endlesly boiling, throughout the entire bang/crunch
cyle of 50 billion years, and there were a trillion other tea-kettle
universes doing the same, there'd be a 50/50 chance of *one* kettle
freezing on the stove.  Now *that* is what I call a memorable lecture.

So the laws of thermo aren't quite as 'strong' as the laws of (say) motion
- -- but to all intents and purposes, for macroscopic systems, they are damn
close. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:47:07 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Task System Redux

On Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:51:46 -0500, you wrote:

> Of course, my system is a little more involved, but I'm
> not ready to talk about that right now.

Ve haav vaaaaaayz ouf makink you talk....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1202
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1203



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn
Re: Traveller Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Realism and "Literary" SF roleplaying
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
Re: 1889
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
IISS Fast Rescue Boat
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
Re: Task System Redux
Re: Task System Redux
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:46:59 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:06:55 +0000, you wrote:

> All of this at a glance.  I don't know what you people are talking=20
> about--complicated?

It's not that it is *complicated*.  Only that it can be made *less
complicated* without having any real detrimental effects to the game.

Why go to the hassle of recalculating (read: erase and rewrite) the
Skill Level whenever the Experience Level ends up as a value divisible
by 3?  What is so important about Skill Level that it deserves its own
column-- and added character sheet maintenance?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:39:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Economics - Making a buck!

Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:35:32 +1200, Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
>It seems to me, and I'm desperate to change topics here, that the greater
>investment a High jump ship represents should be rewarded when using it as
>designed.

>I propose that the income generated by one jump is related to the distance
>traveled in that Jump.  This means that to travel the same distance on any
>vessel always costs the same.

This is a real problem.  Not only is it hard to understand why it would
work out this way, but it is inconsitent with the economics described
for the Imperium.  I also means that if you are shiping something
a long distance (more than one jump) it is impossible to know how
much it would cost (since if it goes by a bunch of short jumps
is will cost more than a few longer jumps).


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:47:15 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:13:22 -0600, you wrote:

> 	DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD !!!!

I heard about the takeover on the TBP mailing list the day it happened
and a few individuals were sorry to see TRS go under.  One posting was
based something like this (I'm paraphrasing here):

"TSR introduced many of us to the hobby of roleplaying.  Like it or
not, 9 out of 10 of us heard about RPGs by exposure to TSR's D&D line
of games.  The fantasy genre was easy to sell, the "hard science" of
Traveller was not.  If TSR didn't exist back then, there is no telling
what the RPG hobby would look like right now.  D&D sales made up a
great deal of the profits for many game stores, and without TSR, many
would not exist today.  TSR's drive to be the best in the industry
helped bring other companies like GDW, ICE, Chaosium, White Wolf,
HERO, etc. into the market.  Although Traveller never really competed
directly with the fantasy world of Greyhawk, many of us might never
had discovered Traveller if we hadn't made the trip to our local game
store to see what all the fuss was about (regarding D&D).

"Likewise, this is a major wake-up call to all other RPG companies.
If it can happen to a giant like TSR, it can happen to anyone-- in a
heartbeat!"

Just to set the record straight, I do not play D&D.  I don't like the
rule mechanics and I don't like "science".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:46:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Realism and "Literary" SF roleplaying

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:38:57 +0200 (METDST), you wrote:

> And you've overlooked at least three ways of solving the problem:
>=20
>  (3) Say 'Good idea. Unfortunately it has broken down and will take a =
long
>      time to repair. You're not even sure you can do it with the spare
>      parts you're carrying.'

This is similar to putting off a term paper or other major assignment
until the nigh before it is due.  The situation needs to be addressed
*eventually*.

>  (4) Say 'Good idea. I messed up. I had overlooked that solution. Would
>      you like to play Monopoly for the rest of the evening, or what =
about
>      saying that the thing is broken and will take a long time to =
repair?
>      An then play on?'

This is similar to trying to sweet talk your way into getting
additional time to do your assignment (ie: "My dog ate my homework" :)

>  (5) Say 'unfortunately that dingus can't be used in atmosphere (new
>      handwaving explanation).

This is similar to faking a note from the doctor to get out of gym
class.

> Number 5 is, of course, a dangerous solution, and number 3 might anger
> some players, who will think you're trying to hose them, but I've =
always
> had good results from number 4 (whenever I've messed up, which is not,
> thankfully, that often.

#3 works, but doesn't answer the players' question.  They will be
under the impression that they *could* do what they want to do when
they get the contraption running again.

#5 also works, but now the campaign begins to suffer under an
increasing number of handwaved answers.

I agree, #4 is probably the best choice out of all five.  It is even
better when your players take an interest in maintaining the order of
your game universe.  If the entire group takes a timeout and tries to
work on the problem together, the whole game will benefit from their
attempt (instead of sending everybody home and leaving the referee to
try and figure things out by him/herself).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:40 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:01:41 -0700
> From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
> Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation
> 
> Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:53:23 -0800, Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> [Stuff about Norris being gay.  I'll just comment that I agree that
> it is consistent with his being gay, but that I don't agree his
> being gay is the only clear answer...]

Yes its not the _only_ clear answer but it is the most clear answer.
 
> >Since Norris's heir and clone, Seldrian, shares his genes & most current
> >genetic evidence suggests (although does not prove) that homosexuality
> >is primarily genetic we can probably assume that she was also gay.
> 
> Um, no.  The evidence is of a correlation between gay behavior and
> certain genes.  It doesn't mean that gay behavior can't also be
> learned (and so means that you can't be sure that Norris has the
> gene) or that possetion of the gene means you will be gay.

Yes this is true my comments were somewhat overgeneralized.  
> 
> You can only say that there seems to be a higher chance
> that she will be gay, and even then you might only be
> raising it from a 2% chance to a 5% chance.

> Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

The actual chance that someone is gay is closer to 3-4 % and there
chance of being bisexual is also about 3-4%.  

As a quick way of determining an NPC's sexual orientation when it
matters (if a PC makes a pass at them for instance) roll 2d6: On a roll
of 2 the charecter is gay, on a 12 they are bi, on any other roll they
are straight.

Some of the recent (and nigh definitive) studies of sexual orientation
have looked at the sexual orientations of identical twins.  I've seen
articles on 4 or 5 of them done in the last few years, by both American
& British researchers, and covering both gay men and lesbians which
indicated that if one twin is gay the other has about a 50% chance of
being gay as well.  Some of these twins were reared apart and they still
had a higher chance of being gay (40% + IIRC). A clone is essentially
the same as an identical twin so the data should be similar (twins
may/will have more maternal mitochondrial DNA in common than a clone
raised in a different womb would but thats a minor point).

In addition we need to remember that different genes have different
rates of _expressivity_ and that the fact that some straight identified
people have the "gay gene" while some gay identified people do not may
reflect the expressivity of the gene & not merely its presence or
absence (expressivity is basically the chance that the gene will
activate).

This is a lot better chance than you suggest & what little canonical
evidence we have about Seldrian suggests that she was also
gay.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:32:40 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:04:30 +1000 (EST), you wrote:

[SNIP]

> bzzzt wrong. Im not a scientist, not by a long shot, but i am a student=
 of
> science and its social definitions, workings and impact.  For all =
intenst
> and purposes Aristotle was a scientists, perhaps not by what we are a
> familiar with, but he was nontheless the forefather of people like
> Galileo, Newton and Eienstein. =20

=46YI, "science" is defined as: knowledge of general facts, laws, and
relationships that is obtained through systematic observation and
experiment, especially as applied to the physical world and the
phenomena associated with it.

"Scientific method" is likewise described as: the principles and
procedures of scientific investigation, including (1) the recognition
and description of a particular problem, (2) the collection of data
related to this problem through observation and experimentation, (3)
the interpretation of the data and formation of a hypothesis to
describe the event, law, or relationship discovered, and (4) the
testing of the hypothesis by more observation and experimentation.

These are the definitions we all use.  Please inform us if you plan on
using a different definition *before* posting.

> Actually Aristotle wasnt a modern scientists, and yes i have read
> Aristotle.  Your being whats termed, "whiggish".  Your looking at
> Aristotle through modern paradigms, which is wrong.  In his time he was
> effectively, what we would term, a scientist.  As were some of his
> contemporaries. =20

Wrong.  We cannot define Aristotle effectively as a "scientist" since
the very definition was defined long after he was alive.

[SNIP]

> I do understand, more than you can imagine.  Your quibbling over a =
modern
> definition of a scientist, which you havent defined yet, so i will
> a Scienctist, is nne versed in or devoted to science.

It's A LOT more than that-- you have to define "science" (see above).

> So whats Science?, Science is the systematic study of man and his
> environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
> and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
> observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.

Correct.  But science further demands that we continue to test, poke,
and prod, until there is NO DOUBT left in the "theory".  Only then is
it considered "fact".  Aristotle did not have this thoroughness.

> So, where does aristotle fail?  Just because he didnt use an electronic
> microscope and didnt wear a white jacket?  He was limited to is own
> primitive instruments and his own physical limitations but he =
formulated
> theories on what he observed in the universe.  His a scientist in my
> books, and his also considered a scientist but most scientific =
historians=20
> ive read.

He failed because he didn't have a red-headed lab assistant named
"Beaker" :)

[SNIP]

> Why such stabs at my education and character?  I havnt shown you any
> disrespect.  What, am i getting a bit close to the truth am i?  =
Starting
> to feel a sting are you?
>=20
> Well, ive never had an email kill file before, but i think i'll make =
one
> and add you to it "Mr. Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  GURPS fan, Amiga =
user,
> Shakespearean scholar, actor and director."

How can you debate with people if all those who offend you are
immediately placed in your Kill File?


Michl, or Solomani, or whatever... /please/ look over your postings
before you hit the "SEND" button.  It will save us all a lot of grief.
The rest of us on the list cannot *debate* with you if we cannot
*understand* you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:46:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:05:23 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> Way, way, w-a-y back in the days of CT, Marc Miller & co. postulated =
the
> existence of decoy ships (q-ships) in an article they did in JTAS or
> _Challenge_.  These are ships that resemble normal merchant ships, =
until
> they meet with pirates.  Then -- *surprise!!!* -- they open up with all
> guns and blow Mr. Pirate away. =20
>=20
> In TNE, the Warship column of the Ship Table can result in a character
> receiving a "modified" free/far/fat trader/liner (more guns).  Wouldn't=
 it
> be more appropriate to let the characters get a q-ship, one that's
> *designed* with better maneuver drives, instead of a trader with just =
some
> extra weapons?   I know *I'd* prefer for my character to receive such a
> ship.  :-)

I hated the mustering out rules regarding ships in TNE.  It was just
too easy for a large group of people to own a multi-million credit
starship.  TNE goes one step further and automatically assumes that
all PCs have known each other for quite a while (why else would they
compile their "Ship DMs"?).  Yuck!

Q-ships where operated by the Allied governments during WWII to
counter enemy submarine attacks.  There would be little purpose of a
group of independent PCs to possess such a ship-- other than for
piracy.

Giving any character a q-ship raises the question "How do I pay for
it?"  Q-ships sacrifice cargo space for weapons and drives, space
necessary to pay for a ship that isn't fully paid for yet.  As you are
probably well aware of, nearly all trader designs have problems making
their monthly payments-- even under ideal circumstances.  A reduced
cargo capacity would spell doom.

All is not lost, however.  Perhaps a special branch of the Navy could
*lone* Q-ships to retired characters, much like the Scouts lone out
ships.  The Q-ship would probably function much like a subsidized
merchant, plying a specific route for a fixed period each year and
exchanging a sizable profit share for its monthly payments.  It could
still make part of its payments through trading, although most of its
payments would be paid by the company whose trade routes you are
protecting.  For those few weeks that you are "on vacation", you are
expected to defend other shipping (whom your bosses will contact
regarding payment for any services rendered during that time).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1889

> >
> >I have always *dreamed* of playing in a Space:1899 game!  The whole idea
> >is just too lovely.
> 
> It was a blast working on it. I particularly enjoyed the fact that even I
> (GDW's most math-challenged employee) was up to the rigors of the game's
> "cannonball through the window" physics.

  Best Roleplaying Game Ever, in my view - as demonstrated by the eight
issues of the fanzine "Transactions of the Royal Martian Geographical
Society" I wrote and edited.  Aside from the combat system (I never met
anyone who actually used it as written), it was clean, easy to use, and a
blast to play.  Too bad it was not as popular as other games, a
circumstance I blame on the lack of "really cool guns" - if the weapons
list had just gone into more detail, like Call of Cthulhu, lets say, I
think more power gamers would have liked it.  

> I'm just sorry my "City in the Middle of Africa founded by A Lost Roman
> Legion(TM)" adventure was never published. Or the "Hollow Earth (tm)"
> adventure. Or the series of adventures based on thwarting the schemes of the
> Inscrutable, Insidious and Unscupulous Oriental Mastermindt (tm applied for).

  Great minds think alike (sort of).  No lie, I actually ran a game that
combined all three of these ideas (sick, huh?).  The evil mastermind
trapped the players in the Hollow Earth (Hollow Mars, actually), where
they found all sorts of exotic races that someone (they guessed the
Vulcans) had collected over the years.  Including, of course, lizardmen,
moonmen, and the obligatory Lost Roman Legion.  The players eventually
triumphed, freeing the enslaved Cartheginians, though all but one of them
were trapped inside Mars forever.  They didn't mind, though - they found
True Love, or in the case of the inventor character, a really neat
collection of ancient artifacts to study.

  The adventure had its genesis in the observation that Martian gravity
was too high - in Space 1889 it's given as 90% of Earth's, though it
should be more like 40% (can't remember the correct figure offhand).  I
decided this was because there were gravity generators buried below the
planet, and that it was hollow inside - a really big spaceship, if you
will.  Now was it built by Martians, Vulcans, or somebody else?  I never
really decided - I just needed a place for the Roman Legion. 

  The one fellow to escape, the army sergeant, fell off a cliff into a
raging river, never to be seen again.  Well, not until the climax of the
Transactions campaign, when Baron Towster and his trusty manservant
had their final showdown with Colonel O'Reily, the Fenian mastermind.
Since this was the climax of a three-year campaign, I brought back all of
those characters who had been there at the begining (at least the ones who
were still alive).  The sergeant had been one of those characters, and
since the Hollow Mars adventure had not been fully official, I decided to
bring him back.  The other players found him in a Martian cave, where he
had been washed up by the river from underground.  He had survived by
eating mushrooms for months - needless to say the other characters never
believed his wild stories about his experiences underground.  I don't
think the player ever forgave me for the mushrooms - turned out he hated
them in real life.

> Sometime, I must tell you of my Space: 1889 character, Edmund Blackadder, aka
> "the Marshal Ney of Crime" and his henchman Baldric, aka "the Chester Alan
> Arthur of Crime" 

  Please do - sounds like fun.

> Sigh...

  Yeh, why is it that most of the games I like (aside from Traveller) turn
out to be commercially unsuccesful?  I found Magic: the Gathering to be
boring, and loved Space 1889 and 2300:AD.  Guess which game sold milions?
Good thing I never tried to run a game store.


Mark Clark
TRMGS Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:53:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

Quoth Solomani:
> Aristotle was a scientists, perhaps not by what we are a
> familiar with, but he was nontheless the forefather of people like
> Galileo, Newton and Eienstein.  

In the sense that he tried to explain the universe?  Then so are shamans
and priests.  You are trying to define "scientists" by function rather
than method, which is valid in a sociological sort of way, I suppose,
but hardly in a practical one.

> Your statement can be compared to saying something like "primitive man
> isnt human"  no, thats wrong there human, they may not be Homo Sapien (or
> whatever the term for modern man is), they may not look like men, they
> may not act like men but there still men.

But a scientist, or a Christian, or a libertarian, is determined by what
she or he _does_: very different from, say, an Australopithecine, or a
Caucasian, who is classified as such because of what he _is_.  It's the
old choice vs. heritage, nature vs. nurture quibble again.  I say
scientists are defined by what (and how) they do; you, apparently, claim
that it is only their function as Explainers of the Universe that makes
them important.  If I misunderstand, please clarify.
 
> Actually Aristotle wasnt a modern scientists, and yes i have read
> Aristotle.  Your being whats termed, "whiggish".  Your looking at
> Aristotle through modern paradigms, which is wrong.  In his time he was
> effectively, what we would term, a scientist.

I don't understand the term "whiggish," though I can guess at it.  If
being a nit-picker about proper spelling, grammar, and logic makes me
one, so be it.  :-)

But let's not get into cultural relativism here -- sure, again, in purely
anthropological terms we can view Aristotle as a "scientist" of sorts...
but what possible relevance does that have to this debate, which began by
discussing whether science could sustain the sort of radical changes you
would have it suffer for the sake of handwaved Traveller technology?  I
note, for example, that you still haven't responded to my "tree-sap"
disagreement with you from earlier.
 
> > I am, alas, not familiar enough with the history of science to explain the
> > history of the phlogiston theory.
> Well, until you do know what is, how can you argue at all?

<Blink, blink>  Excuse me, but given your previous obfuscatory style,
isn't this rather a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

> a Scienctist, is nne versed in or devoted to science.
> So whats Science?, Science is the systematic study of man and his
> environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
> and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
> observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.

"Man" has nothing to do with science, except as you render it an
anthropological conceit totally divorced from objective reality, which is
what far too many off-the-wall feminists and whatnot keep trying to do
nowadays.  (Viz. the recent assault on Newton's Principia as a "rape
manual.")

But I'll grant you much of the definition -- in which case, note that
you've just hoist yourself by your own petard.  Aristotle did not perform
his "science" via "reproducable observations and measurements," otherwise
he wouldn't have stuck us with his bone-headed ideas about the physics of
motion.  Therefore, even according to your own definition, he was not a
scientist.  Can we get off this tangent now?

> > > True, i cant imagine gravity being disregarded tomorrow, but it wouldnt
> > > surprise me if it was changed or disregarded in the future.
> > So you claim that, suddenly, because of some scientist's "Eureka!" in a
> > lab, we will all be slung off the Earth at high velocity because gravity
> > no longer exists?  You have a very strange conception of the universe.
> You just cant read.  Where did i say what you just stated?

See the top of the quoted section, re: "gravity being disregarded... in
the future."  That seems pretty obvious to me.  If it wasn't what you
meant, perhaps you might consider writing more clearly?
 
> You also seem to hold the Anarchists method of discovery (Eureka) in
> contempt.  This sort of discovery does happen though, and it has happened
> in history - people just think of things, no extensive research no
> nothing, it just comes to them.

Sure.  Kekule's discovery of the benzene ring, or Einstein's gedanken
experiments, are obvious examples.  But such discoveries usually come on
top of sufficient experimental work to justify them.  Kekule was an
experienced chemist whose subconscious was able to plow through the
amassed difficulties and help him out with a dream.  Einstein existed in a
world and a time where problems in physics had presented themselves which
he was able to solve purely theoretically -- but, note, based on already-
existing knowledge.
 
> > Just how much scientific education have you had?  (Does it match your
> > grammatical education?)
> Why such stabs at my education and character?

I apologize for the unwarranted attack.  I have found your scientific
assertions, and the spelling and grammar in which they are presented,
frustrating in the extreme.  Every time I or others present coherent
objections to your arguments, you rush to change the subject to yet
another ill-formed argument, thus floating further and further from the
point (what does Aristotle have to do with Traveller?)

Discussion lists like TML or others I am on often put me in mind of
civilized cocktail parties where people strive to present themselves and
their positions in the best light possible.  When someone wades in
swinging a post filled with ill-wrought sentences, bad grammar, and
ill-thought-out arguments, it feels rather like a slurring rag-clothed bum
rushing the Gentleman's Club.  (I exempt non-native speakers, of which we
have many on this forum -- but, last I checked, electric-rain.net was
hosted in a nominally English-speaking country, yet your posts are less
well-composed than theirs). 

If you kill-file me, so be it.  I know from private email that I do not
speak alone in disliking your posting style, argument tactics, and
apparent conception of the scientific method, but I regret that my own
over-emotional response to it has made me impolite.  Again, I apologize
for the over-heated and personal style to which I descended.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: IISS Fast Rescue Boat

  As part of the prep for my Beltwatch game, I decided to see just how
fast a design I could come up with to get help out there when needed.
Here's a first pass:

Rescue Boat
TL: 12
Size: 10 Ton Std (Steamlined Cylinder)
Acceleration: 11.1 G (empty), 10 G (9 metric tons cargo)
Armor: 3 all around
Power: 24 Mw (Fusion +), 100 hours fuel
Crew: 2 (grav comp, 10 G)
Cargo Space: 7.1 Ton Std
Com: Continental range, 0.1 Mw
Sensor: Continental range radar, 0.1 Mw
Standard Life Support, 1750m<3>


  The rescue boat is designed to take rescue personel to emergencies as
quickly as possible.  Stacked grav compensators allow compensation to 10
G, the crew must remain in their spacious 2m<3> couches while under
acceleration.  The life support system is oversized so that it can hook up
to a damaged ship and support it, or an inflatable airtight temporary
shelter similar to the Survival Tent (from Central Supply Catalog) can be
inflated and attached.  The additional cargo space can carry more fuel or
rescue equipment - due to no G compensation in this area, no passengers
are carried.  The design includes a roomy 3m<3> airlock with
decontamination capability.

  Rescue equipment normally carried includes:

2x	EVA-11 Suits, Anti-Infiltration, Anti-Corrosive, Heat-absorbing
	  Extenal sensors, Psi-Shielded
100x	Survival Bubbles
2x	Entry Cutter
2x	Iris Valve Opener
2x	Atmosphere tester
4x	Medical Scanner
10x	Paramedic Kit-11
1x	Portable airlock
1x	Survey Shield
1x	Large Survival tent (1500Kg)
100x	Wall Patches
2x	Mechanical Tool Kit
2x	Electronics Tool Kit


Design notes:  As other folks have said, it is a pain in the behind to
design small craft for high acceleration, since you have to itterate
between mass and volume.  The Fighter design competition will be tough - I
probably will pass, given what a pain in the behind this was.

  You could get slightly better performance (12G) with a 5T hull, but that
would leave only 28 cubic meters for gear - this design gives more
flexibility in cargo carrying, I think. 

  Since this is my first effort with the small craft design system, 
perhaps someone could eyeball the design and see if it is reasonable.
Comments are welcome.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:26:39 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:05:23 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
> 

> Q-ships where operated by the Allied governments during WWII to
> counter enemy submarine attacks.  There would be little purpose of a
> group of independent PCs to possess such a ship-- other than for
> piracy.
> 

Umm, Q-ships actually operated against enemy surface raiders ... but, yes, there is 
little reason for a group of PCs to own one except piracy (and Germany used Q-ships for 
commerce raiding eg the Kormoran).


> 
> All is not lost, however.  Perhaps a special branch of the Navy could
> *lone* Q-ships to retired characters, much like the Scouts lone out
> ships.  The Q-ship would probably function much like a subsidized
> merchant, plying a specific route for a fixed period each year and
> exchanging a sizable profit share for its monthly payments.  It could
> still make part of its payments through trading, although most of its
> payments would be paid by the company whose trade routes you are
> protecting.  For those few weeks that you are "on vacation", you are
> expected to defend other shipping (whom your bosses will contact
> regarding payment for any services rendered during that time).

Why ? Wouldnt it be simpler just to have the regular Navy staff the ship ? This way 
there is less risk of the crew deciding to join the wolves, rather than guard against 
them.

And as for arming a merchant ship, why not get a reasonably-well armed merchant ship 
with a bit of spare power, and put a crack naval crew and dirty great big naval battle 
computer in it ... being a High Guard holdout, I think you should be able to cram a Mod 
7 computer into, say, a 1000t freighter, as long as you avoided any energy-using 
weapons, and the nuclear warheads in the missiles (we *are* the Navy, after all) will 
shock the average pirate immensely ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:54:21 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Task System Redux

Opps, sorry about that last post pressed CTRL-Return by mistake...

And now I have decided not to reply the the message too... :(

Sigh... Seems like a bad day only gets worse... :(

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:52:08 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Task System Redux

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 04/15/97 at 10:39 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:
> 
> > > (b) divide the Points by 3, rounded down for the current Skill Level.
> 
> > For the few times you need a "Skill Level", the above step is sufficient.
> > Considering the infrequency that you need to know this, however, it only
> > serves to complicate things or muddle up the character sheet by adding
> > another column.
> 
> I agree with you. Yeah, I'm the guy that suggested the Skill Level column,
> but that was to placate the old die hards that *have* to have a skill
> level. <g>
> 
> Truth be told, I'm not even going to have traditional Skill Levels *during*
> character generation. Each time a PC get's a specific skill the player will
> figure the addition to the Skill Point total and just put that on the
> character sheet. Of course, my system is a little more involved, but I'm
> not ready to talk about that right now.
> 
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:53:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In a message dated 97-04-15 12:31:52 EDT, Anders writes:

> User interfaces don't always improve by TL ;)
>
No kidding. Remember when VCRs had buttons on the front of the case?
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:47:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In mail you write:

> Well, look at how much "easier" modern watches are to set than older ones
> and in 3000 years it will probably take an AI computer several years to do
> it. User interfaces don't always improve by TL ;)

Don't forget that modern watches have more functionality too. 

I got my first watch about 30 years ago. And it was a wonderful thing.
I still have it somewhere, it just needs some cleaning. But the
important fact was that this watch displayed the day of the month *and*
the day of the week in little windows. And it was a windup type watch. 

Setting it the first time took me half an hour. It took a minute or two
at the end of February to cycle it past the 29th, 30th, and 31st. 

Now what was that about user interfaces? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1203
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1204



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: NOVA
Re: IR masking
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Search and Rescue Boat
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (long)
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Norris' Preferences
Re: Why we discuss fighters
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Low Tech Space Fighters
Strange M0 scenario idea...
Re: Tech talk
Re: Computer technology (going off topic a bit)
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:09:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: NOVA

In mail you write:

> On 04/14/97 at 02:59 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> said:
>
>> Try reading Samuel R. Delaney's "Nova" sometime, for a feeling of what a
>> far future tech could be. We're NOT talking about no %$#@ 'ten years in
>> the future cyberpunk', we're talking 3000+ years!
>
> Hey!  I remember "Nova!"  I've got a hardback copy on the bookshelf in the
> back bedroom, read it 20 years ago. It was *good*, IIRC, I'll have to dust
> it off and reread it.

I thought it was ok. But in my opinion, it was the last thing he wrote
that was *readable*. 

For Traveller ideas, try tracking down "Babel-17", and "The Ballad of
Beta-2". They are more likely to be useful, though I can't promise that
you'll find anything that you want to indtroduce into your campaign.

Scary idea of the decade... introduce the Zhodani to someone who speaks
Babel-17.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:47:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IR masking

In mail you write:

>>Easy, by *definition* a heat sink is something *colder* than what you
>>have it attached to. One of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics sets
>>a max value for the energy you can extract from the temp difference
>>between a heat source and a heat sink, based on the temp difference. 
>> 
>>So, since there *is* a temp difference, and one that is essentially
>>fixed, you can extract energy from the flow of heat between them. Since
>>you were talking about a heat sink that can be used to cool the ship to
>>look like the background (3K) it has to be *less* than 3K. And that
>>means you can extract a *lot* of energy from the difference in temp
>>between 300K and <3K. 
>
> But you can't create any energy, can you? You have to produce the energy
> in the first place. If so, why not just define the power requirements of
> this heat sink device to roughly balance out to whatever "free" energy
> the difference would provide you with. 

If you do that, then then you can't use it to cool the ship either.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:13:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

In mail you write:

> Maybe here is the solution to the killer lifeboat problem?  A bit of my
> rusty old calculus gives a ship's velocity v = (2Pt/m)^0.5, where t is the
> number of seconds of continuous thrust, m the mass in kg of the ship
> itself, and P the power being applied continuously to the thruster plates.

But what's the limit of v as t approaches infinity. Near as I can tell,
it's infinity.

Assume a 100 ton ship (1e5 kg) with a 1 GW (1e9) power plant.

v=sqrt(2*1e9*t/1e5)
v=sqrt(2e4*t)
v=100*sqrt(2t)

Yep, it doesn't have a limit.

let's see how long to 1% c.

3e6=100*sqrt(2t)
3e4=sqrt(2t)
9e8=2t
4.5e8=t

A bit over 14 years. I'd say that's "safe"

But I bet transit times are a bitch.


Will your rusty calculus let you do a similar calculation for the "true
reactionless" drive. It violates conservation of momentum, but obeys
"Work equals force times distance". 

And while you are at it, a formula for distance versus time to go with
your current one for velocity would be nice.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:28:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

In mail you write:

>>Momentum is conserved, the two components just aren't connected.  That is
>>to say, your typical starship might mass some 1E9 grams, but the star (and
>>attendant gravity well) against which its thruster plates push masses on
>>the order of 1E33 grams, so it's kinda hard to notice its recoil....  :-)
>
> This turns out not to work, if you do the numbers - you can't conserve
> momentum and energy simultaneously with thrusters, even if they are magically
> connected to a planet.

No, it *works*, it just doesn't allow constant acceleration. Your
velocity keeps increasing, but the *rate* of increase drops pretty
fast. 

> (Energy turns out to be much more of a problem than
> momentum - in the solar-system-rest frame, most accelerating thruster craft
> are gaining kinetic energy much more rapidly than their power plant is
> generating energy.

Well, that's because you *assumed* that they could violate conservation
of energy. If you limit the KE increase to the power plant's output,
then you conserve both momentum and energy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:19:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In mail you write:

>>In addition to using this for hand computers, the headband or choker alone
>>could also be standard equipment for daily life (well decorated and
>>stylish for the rich) which would automatically interface with most common
>>devices. Think advanced. 
>
> Wearing your technology is the way to go.  All this will be donned
> with no more thought than the average person straps on a wristwatch,
> and will be as easy to handle.  someone (a while back) posted an idea
> for a 'computer cloth' that could be cut and sewn, that was imprinted
> with circuits and cpu's.  Might want to search the archives for that...

Better yet, dig up a copy of Marc Steigler's short story "The Gentle
Seduction". It's one of the few attempts to describe events leading up
to the Singularity (actually, it may describe some things *afterwards*,
but only vaguely).

You take a "pill" (bunch of nanobots) that *grows* a subcutaneous
headband. Only people that'll notice will be other folks with
headbands, and then only if they enhance their vision a bit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:14:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Search and Rescue Boat

In mail you write:

>>But just off the top of my head, you'd want sonething that can boost a
>>9-g or better, with a crew of 1-2, and is capable of reaching *at
>>least* the 100 diameter limit under max boost (ie accelerate half way,
>>decelerate half way). Extra range is a bonus. 2 crew rather than 1 is a
>>bonus. Ability to use standard fighter launching and docking facilities
>>is a bonus. And it should have at least a couple of tones of cargo
>>space, 10 would be excellent.
> [snip]
>
> Recall this design that I posted a while back?  Taking the basic hull and
> drive configuration, De-EMM'ing it, and ripping out the J-drive and weapons
> systems and using the space for sickbays, rescue equipment, lots of SAR and
> medical personnel, and the like and I think that you'd have something
> pretty effective in the role you ask for.  If I didn't have *^^*&%ing exams
> right now I'd do one up...
>
>>Famille Spofulam Yards Moonshine-class Rapid Insertion/Extraction Starship

When exams are over, you might want to consider re-tooling this as a
med-evac ship for the military. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:54:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (long)

In mail you write:

>         With regard to democracy, these individuals also seem to think that
> democracy is defined as "whatever the majority wants", and complains about
> recourses to the courts over discriminatory legislation as being
> undemocratic.

That's the point, that *is* the way democracy is defined. Which is why
I see red every time people call this a democracy. 

>         In order to tie this in to Traveller somehow, a lot of fun could be
> had messing with players' expectations of a "democratic" society... the
> possibilities are practically endless.  There's this song by the Clash
> called "Know your rights" which are kinda a-propos:
>
> "Know your rights, all three of'em!...  You have the right not to kill:
> murder is a crime!/Unless it was done by a policeman, or an aristocrat...
> You have the right to food money, so long as you don't mind/ a little
> investigation, humiliation, and if you cross your fingers/
> rehabilitation!...  You have the right to free speech, so long as you're
> not dumb enough to actually try it!"

There was a wonderful story I read. It'd be *perfect* as a Traveller
hi-law level society. Every community is allowed it's own laws,
strictly enforced. Everyone carries a pocket AI for legal advice. And
at any boundary where the law changes, there are transmitters (wireless
LAN type setup) so your AI can download the rules *before* you enter.

Think of the fun of hitting the players with that. 

"But I checked with the AI, it said drinking was legal!"

"Yes, but that was in the *city*, you should have had it set to warn
 you when you crossed the boundary into the county...."

"Where's that?"

"It's the street you crossed just before I arrested you...."

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:47:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In mail you write:

> Excellent ideas.  Also, for the ever-useful hand computer I would suggest
> electrodes which pick up nerve signals and muscle contractions and
> translate them into various commands.  The user of such a system would
> need some training, but perhaps no more than learning to type. 

I just saw a special on near future medicine. One item was an artifical
hand that works that way. Even has some (limited) feedback. The guy
wearing it pointed out that he can actually do things that folks with
real hands can't. *His* wrist can rotate continously in either
direction. He says it's a great hit with the trick or treaters on
Halloween.

> My only question is whether there is a similarly nifty way to do visual
> output? Audio output can be handled through a medium-sized earring with a
> bone conduction speaker (on the back of the earring where it touches the
> head. But I can see any) way to do visual output w/o screens or
> holofields. 

Visual output requires either a light source or direct nerve interfacing.

BTW, there are a couple of odd devices that a reliable source reports
can be used to feed you an audio signal via a contact *anywhere* on
your body. Best guess is that the induced signal in the nerves has some
characteristic that makes the brain shunt to signal to the audio centers.

> As a final idea, how about personal secretaries much like the AI credit
> card sized computer (named Velma?) in the dreadful show "Time Tracks". 
> Turn the full AI into merely a well designed expect system and you could
> have another nifty device for Traveller. 

Back when Heinlein's "Number of the Beast" came out, the Tandy Model
100 laptop was fairly new. the M100SIG on Compuserve got together and
came up with a couple of what we'd now call "shell" programs that
incorporated a crude "personality simulator". I've got source (in
*BASIC*) to the best of the lot somewhere. I plan on updating it
eventually and putting it on a PC. It's actually no brighter than
Eliza. Except that part of the responses are running programs for you. :-)

	"Deety, where's my mail?"
	"Ha! Who'd write to you... probably all spam."
	<and then your email program comes up>

Add multiple choices for responses, randomly selected, and you get the
*appearance* of intelligence.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:23:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Norris' Preferences

In mail you write:

> Who really cares?

Maybe someone has a player whose character wants to get a date with the
Emperor?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:10:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why we discuss fighters

In mail you write:

> Mused <marz@HotStar.net> writes
>
>> Everytime someone says, "that is obsolete", a use is usually found
>> for it or more likely it was found to fill a niche that hasn't yet
>> been filled by new stuff

> Wrong.

<snip>

> People said the longbow was obsolete in 1700. They were right.

But the crossbow lives on! The Army(?) has an "issue crossbow" for use
in certain types of sniper assignments.

> People said the dreadnaught battleship was obsolete in 1941. They were right.
>
> (In all these cases, obsolete doesn't mean "totally useless", but "mostly
> irrelevant to the main battle".)

You are arguing a point he didn't make. For example, battleships turn
out to be a nice way to deliver heavy bombarment to small countries
with seacoasts. And the armor is even a plus. So is the fact that
they've fitted cruise missile launchers on them...

Heck, even *cavalry* is useful. For guerillas...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:08:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In mail you write:

> The problems I'm having with all this "future technology" is that somehow
> EVERYTHING gets turned into a stagnant Vilani state for the next couple of
> thousand years, that somehow the pace of technological change slows to a
> crawl...why is everyone assuming that year Zero looks like 2010 with
> JumpDrives? or worse, 1997 with jumpdrives, fusion and antigravity (flying
> frogs excepted)?
>
> We have advanced what, two, three tech levels in this century alone in
> many areas, so why is the assumption made that the future looks so much
> like today, or that what we percieve as limits are in fact true limits?

Easy. A writer has the following choices if he *understands* the rate
of progress involved.

1. stick to *very* near future.
2. handwave that progress slows down
3. Try to figure out how to describe post-Singularity society (by the
   very *definition* of the Singularity we can't even *imagine* what it'll
   be like afterwards)

Remember, just *before* the Singularity, people will be able to do
*anything* we can currently imagine that is physically *possible*.  And
there's every indication that unless *something* intervenes, we'll be
there before 2100.

So Traveller doesn't really have a choice, do they?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:34:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In mail you write:

>>There's also a short discussion about how the invention of the neural
>>jacks vastly changed the concept of 'work' for most people.
>
> Yes, but I see neural jacks (as well as most other typical cybertech) as
> overly obvious and flashy solutions to problems.  If you can make an
> interface headband which works almost as well and it doesn't require the
> user to have brain surgery (even safe, easy, brain surgery) it will be a
> vastly more popular option.  Cyberpunk looks clunky, after thousands of
> years of use tech isn't going to look clunky, it will be easy to use,
> conveniently sized, and highly ergonomic. 

There's one *big* advantage to jacks. Namely, it's *much* easier to
control just who is running what. While passwords and secure comm
protocols are good, nothing beats *physical* security.

Consider the "fun" with a headband that controls things if you let your
mind wander or don't realize that you are in pickup range of the gizmo.
If you have to jack in, that means you *can't* control it until you are
jacked in, and you can unjack if something goes wrong (like bad ICE
heading for you).

This is why wireless keyboards didn't catch on. In fact, IBM had to
*retrofit* the PCjr with a wired keyboard because of what happened to
them in classrooms. One of the bigger goofs Big Blue ever made.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:11:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Low Tech Space Fighters

In mail you write:

>   The one thing to keep in mind with the Sanger, Dyna-Soar, and similar
> atmospheric manuevering proposals from the 1960s and before is that they
> relied on _manual_ piloting for re-entry.  Even with skilled pilots, this
> is a dicey proposition (though perhaps not strictly impossible).  I talked
> with the fellow who did a history of Dyna-Soar, who was an active-duty Air
> Force flight officer at the time (his thesis was delayed by flying in the
> Gulf War, one of the better reasons I've heard for turning in a paper
> late).  I remeber him telling me that one of the most scary parts of
> reading the program description was the part about how the pilots were
> expected to land from orbit without onboard computers and were cut off
> from ground guidance for a good portion of reentry due to the ionized gas
> envelope surounding the ship due to the heat of reentry.  The learning
> curve is pretty steep here - screw up the first time and you're toast.

Which is why the first few to survive will soon be training new pilots
in *two* seat craft. :-)

But yes, they're nuts by our standards. But ever take a look at the
kind of *junk* people were flying up until WWII? 

I suspect that a low TL spacefaring culture, properly handled, should
both scare the pants off our heroes, and make them respect it.

How'd you like to jump into a system and discover that it was WWII,
only with the Germans, Japanese *and* the US using nukes, and aerospace
fighters and bombers...

Or the cold war in space. Or...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:53:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Strange M0 scenario idea...

If they sent out the Sword Worlders, they must have at least *tried to
send out "sleeper ships" or "generation ships" to "nearer" locations.
If nothing else, *someone* would try it not long after the tech gets
good enough to give you a fighting chance. So a century or millenium
later, this ship arrives at it's destination... which has been
colonized for a *long* time.

Here's a filk song about one possible outcome.... Be warned! It's a downer.

            Space is Dark (words & music: Bill Roper)

Chorus:
    Space is dark and space is deep,
    And the price we've paid is far too steep.
    Though we've gained a hero's name,
    We're all cripples just the same,
    And the scars we bear will testify
    To the pain we've found beyond the sky.

We set out in our starship in twenty-forty-nine,
Sent to ply the galaxy, another earth to find.
They put us in our coffins and gently closed the lid.
And if I'd known then what I know now, I'd've wished we'd wake up dead.

And so we flew a thousand years through interstellar space.
Light years seperated us from the human race.
Then at last we slowed as we approached our target star,
And now we'd find the reason that we'd travelled so far.
CHORUS
As we awoke from frozen sleep, we each knew what to do.
We'd scan the sky about the star for a planet shining blue.
We'd pull into an orbit, and check her atmosphere,
And run a half a hundred tests to see if she proved fair.

We'd monitor the radio so that we could see
If there were any aliens who'd come here before we.
Then from our receiver a tiny voice we heard,
And it spoke to us in English and we understood each word.
CHORUS
Ten years we had been on our way when they found the hyperdrive,
And man spread to a thousand stars while we were half alive.
But still they could not stop our ship to save us from our fate.
And so we have arrived here but nine hundred years too late.

They told us we were heroes, pinned medals on our chests,
And they gave us a fine pension and sent us off to rest.
For we're anachronisms from another place and time,
And so they have retired us though we're all still in our prime.
CHORUS
And of the ten men in our crew, but two of us remain,
For trapped here in the future, we all have gone insane.
We knew when we set out that we'd be gone a thousand years,
But we never thought we'd end up as unwanted pensioneers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:16:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech talk

In mail you write:

> On 04/14/97 at 11:27 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>> Thruster plates are a different matter. They are hard to justify, and
>> open up *way* too many cans of worms. While physics does have a few
>> loopholes that would allow something *like* thrusters, they'd have to
>> work rather differently. 
>
> So, tell us how we pull off reactionless STL...and don't blow
> Conservation^3?

First you take a chunk of negative mass matter (negamatter). Since it
has negative mass, pushing on it makes it move closer, pulling on it
makes it move away. This is *not* antimatter.

If you place it near an equal mass of normal matter, they'll sit there,
until the slightest motion along the line running thru them occurs. At
which point, they take off across the universe, constantly
accelerating! 

It works like this. The normal matter exerts a gravitational force upon
the negative matterand vice versa: GMm/r^2. Since the signs of M and m
are *different, the result is *negative, so instead of being the useual
*attractive* force, you get a repulsion. That makes the normal matter
move away from the negative matter. But because the negative matter has
negative mass, negative times negative equals positive. So it moves
*towards* the normal matter! And thus they wind up chasing each other
at ever increasing velocities.

Note that this *doesn't* violate any conservation laws, because due to
the negative mass, the kinetic energy and momentum of the negamatter is
equal and opposite to that of the normal matter. Thus the "system" has
total momentum and KE of *zero*.

By charging the negamatter and use of electric and magnetic fields you
can control this movement. 

So you just stick this inside a ship and scoot off at as much
acceleration as you can stand. It's a *bit* trickier to deal with when
stuck inside a ship this way, but the principle is the same.

Just don't try to *touch* the negamatter. Negamatter plus normal matter
results in *nothing*. As in they cancel each other out. No muss, no
fuss, just *gone*. (Of course making actual contact is difficult. :-)

Negamatter is also useful for things like stabilizing wormholes. And if
you can create it, you can create it and normal matter in equal amounts
out of empty space. Which may be "free energy".

Without negamatter you can still do *weird* things if you have the
ability to create and manipulate matter at neutron star densities. But
that's for a different post.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:20:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology (going off topic a bit)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> >>And supposedly, the computers on the Shuttle are still using ferrite core
>> >>memory.  Supposedly each of the computers is less powerful than a 386.
>> >>Anyone know for certain?
>> >
>> > Even scarier, they were made by Apple!
>> 
>> That'd be a real neat trick, considering that Apple didn't *exist* when
>> they were built. We are talking *early* 70s tech here folks!
>
> The shuttle first launched in 1981. The prototype, Enterprise, flew
> in 1977, if memory serves. The computer technology for Columbia, given
> these dates, should have been late 1970's because NASA's contractors
> would have improved upon Enterprise.

Nope. NASA doesn't work that way. While some improvements were made in
the airframe, everything else was *frozen* arounf 1970-73. And was
designed with *older* technology, because of the *required* safety
factors. They wanted stuff that had a track record.

The gear on the Shuttles *has* to be the same. That's because they do a
*complete* teardown after every flight and *rebuild*, replacing parts
that aren't perfect. This means that quite often parts from a Shuttle
that has just been torn down will wind up in a Shuttle that's just had
a part rejected. That way they don't have to wait for the spare to be
*made* (they can't afford a spare parts inventory on their budget). In
fact, I've heard that it's almost *common, to have only three sets of a
fair number of parts, and not unheard of to get down to *two* sets. 

It's a miracle the Shuttles fly at all given the thing Congress has
done to the project over the years.

As for Apple computers and the Shuttle, A modified Apple II was part of
an experiment on a flight in the 80s. It was certified as safe to fly
(as in it wouldn't cause problems for the Shuttle). The TRS-80 Model
100 laptop was also certified *as is* for use on the Shuttle. This is
an old 8-bit CPU machine. I own a couple. :-)

Space rated CPUs and other computer parts tend to be *old* technology.
For one thing, modern sub-micron chip layouts *guarantee* a flunk on
the radiation immunity tests. It's too easy for a passing cosmic ray to
flip the state of a bit in a register or memory location.

Remember, all the chip manufacturers use radiation detectors to screen
the raw materials for the IC housing that goes around the chip. This
was after someone had to throw away an entire run of RAM chips vbecause
the ceramic was a little more radioactive than normal (*everything* is
somewhat radioactive!). Being so close to the chip, the tiny bit of
extra radioactivity was enough to cause frequent memory errors.

A few Amateur Radio satellites failed badly by trying to use 16-bit
CPUs and architecture. I've heard of a few attempts to "shield" things
by essentially burying them in lead!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:04:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15

In mail you write:

>>Thruster plates are a different matter. They are hard to justify, and
>>open up *way* too many cans of worms. While physics does have a few
>>loopholes that would allow something *like* thrusters, they'd have to
>>work rather differently. 
>
> I had not realized just how much of a problem they were.  I had assumed
> that things would work alright if you assumed that they were a near perfect
> converter of electrical to kinetic energy.  (Yes, there are some serious
> entropy problems.  I have not decided yet how much this bothers me.) 

If you do *that*, without having them push on something, then you lose
conservation of momentum. Ok, we'll grant that. You also get a
*different* problem than the "pushes on the sun" case. 

The acceleration is a force. And the force makes the ship move.
Therefore, we have the standard equation W=fd (work equals force times
distance). Work is just another name for Energy. But this says that
your energy consumption depends on the *distance* you move. It also
makes high velocities *terribly* expensive!


> Unfortunately for our heroes, to go to 100 diameters from earth at 1g takes
> about a day and a half (1.6e5 s -> 1.5 days), and leaves the vessel moving
> at 1.6e6 m/s.  The energy in the ship is roughly 1.3e12j/kg, and so would
> have needed a power input of roughly 8MW/kg over the intervening day and a
> half.

100 diameters is 100*8000 km = 8e5 km = 8e8 m.
   D=.5AT^2
 8e8=.5*10*T^2
16e8=10*T^2
16e7=T^2
T=12649 sec = 211 minutes = 3.5 hr. 

And the end velocity is 126,491 m/s. Call it 1.3e5. We get 8e9 j/kg
for 8 GW/kg.

Now consider the "true reactionless" drive I mention above. For 1 g,
the force is 10 newtons per kg. Over a distance of 8e8 meters that
gives a total energy budget of 8e9 Gj per kg for the trip. But it needs
1.3e6 per kg during the last second!

> This is not good, and I am not sure just how to react.

My reaction is that I need to try to get my writing ability improved to
the point where I can publish a story using "real" reactionless drives.
Probably with the stereotypical "backyard inmventor" who doesn't listen
to the experts. So he builds them. And then finds out how *badly* they
work.

>>CG is not impossible. Though again it'd work somewhat differently based
>>on what we know. But unlike thruster plates, the difference *isn't*
>>enough to cause major problems (they'd counteract a fixed amount of
>>pull, not a fixed *percentage* of pull)
>
> I had assumed they altered the gravitational potential, causing the ship to
> just fall to where it was wanted.

Gravitational *potential* is the amount of energy it takes to escape
from the field. It depends on *mass* and how far away it is. It's equal
to escape velocity.

Gravitational *force* is different. You can get get the same *force* at
wildly differing potentials. The gravity at Saturn's cloudtops is about
1 g. But the gravitational *potential* is huge. 

So:
	Potential    = sqrt(2GM/r)    (actually escape velocity)
	Acceleration = GM/r^2

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1204
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1205



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Vagar heat
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
Re: What is science? (mild rant)
Re: Fighters BB Killing Weapons
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (long)
Re: Realism and "Literary" SF role-playing
re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Anti-H2 in C60
2D <-> 3D mapping
Re:Ship dammage to PC dammage
Re: Missiles+Fighters
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: A purchaser's plea!
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1202
WotC getting T$R
Steampunk
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:38:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

In mail you write:

> How was Aristotle, "not a scientists" for all intents and purposes?
> Because the definition didnt exist then?  I disagree whole heartedly.
> Aristotelian science was around for almost 2500 years until the time of
> galileo and his contemporaries and academic descendents.
>
> He followed the Empirical method, so his a scientist.

Sorry, but science consists of three things.

1. make observations or experiment
2. come up with an explanation for the observations or experimental results.
3. either experiment (if possible/practical) or make more observations.
   Either way, you test your explanation to see if it fits further
   observation/experiments. In short, look for things that can
   *disprove* your explanation.

Aristotle *sometimes* made observations. He often relied on hearsay
rather than observing for himself. And he *never* experimented. Also,
he *never* looked for anything that might *disprove* his theories.
Heck, he proposed them in the first place because they fit his
philosphy.

>> No.  We only learn new rules for special cases.  Newton was not "wrong":
>> just imprecise.  We now have better rules for handling very small or very
>> fast objects... but Newton is as accurate as most folks need for everyday
>> ranges of speed and size.  As Leonard already said, Einstein's equations
>> simplify into Newton's for "normal" ranges of mass and speed.
>
> I disagree (again, this is a habit with me :)  But since you wont accept
> aristotle as an example of science being wrong, how about phlogiston, that
> was wrong, where was the new rule for that?  How about (his name escapes
> me) <blank>  just after galileo and copernicous, he said that the sun goes
> around the earth, but everything else goes around the sun.  That was just
> plain wrong.

Phlogiston was part of the transition from alchemy to Chemistry.
Proving that it was *wrong* is what *made* chemistry a science. Until
then it wasn't. They didn't do quantitative observations.

You have to realize that not all science *became* sciences at the same
time. Physics was first. Or maybe Astronomy (Kepler's laws). Chemistry
was next. Then maybe biology. You'll find that there is some debate as
to whether pyshology and sociology are "really" sciences even now. They
can't predict worth a damn, so that tends to say that they aren't. 

"The measure of the rigor of a science is its ability to predict"

If it can't make reliable predictions, it isn't science.

>> > science can be wrong.  Actually it can be really wrong.
>> 
>> Science can be wrong about special cases.  But no-one is going to prove
>> tomorrow that gravity doesn't exist and doesn't pull things "down"-wards.
>> Or that changing magnetic fields don't produce electrical fields, etc.
>> Science builds upon its predecessors, it does not eat them.
>
> True, i cant imagine gravity being disregarded tomorrow, but it wouldnt
> surprise me if it was changed or disregarded in the future.  Whos to say
> that when we reach the speed of light (or if) that something completely
> different happens.  

But that doesn't change what happens under "normal" conditions. So
therefore gravity can't be disregarded. Anything you discover to the
contrary will be under circumstances we have yet to encounter. But the
old rules will still apply under the circumstances we *have*
encountered, and the new rules will "be" (simplify to) the old rules
under the old conditions.

> Another example, the double helix genetic model that
> people are use to, anyone who does advanced studies into biology (spec.
> genetics) will tell you that multiple models exist for it, its just that
> the double helix is the easiest to understand and "works".

So? You are talking about a *model*, not the laws of chemistry.

> Ive even heard heated debate between physcists about the existence of the
> electron (or proton, cant remember).  If scientists argue over premises
> that we take for granted, then what makes you think that science cant be 
> "wrong" about a field of things?  

Maybe the fact that if you understood their arguments, you'd find that
they are *based* on the very things you want to say are "wrong".

> Please dont misunderstand me, im not flaming you or writing you off, its
> just that your average joe puts a little to much faith into science for
> little reason.

Most don't know what it *is*. They think it's akin to magic. <sigh>

BTW, the conservation laws are among the very *last* things that are
likely to be found wrong. You see, it turns out that they are just a
different way of stating that certain properties of the universe don't
change.

Conservation of mass turns out to be the same as saying that natural
laws don't depend on *location* in the universe.

Conservation of energy turns out to say the same thing, except with
regards to *time*.

And there are similar things for conservation of momentum, charge, etc.
My books are in storage, or I'd post the others.

So we *can* violate conservation of energy in our game universe. But
that means that the laws of nature in that universe should change over
time. Not a situation *I* want to deal with. Though I *have* used it to
explain to a techy player why things change in a *fantasy* game. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:16:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

In a message dated 97-04-15 23:58:55 EDT,Dave Golden writes:

>	DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD !!!!
Stop! You slay me with mirth....
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:11:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vagar heat

In a message dated 97-04-15 17:55:23 EDT, Andrew Boulton writes:

> Also do Vargr have specific periods when they are in heat
>or are they like humans more or less year round fertile and willing? >>
Depends, do they still have litters, or did the ancients curb their fertility
and extend their lifespan?
If they still have litters, then they probably still have specific times of
fertility. This allows a female with a litter time to care for the young
until the children can be on  their own, without being bothered by the males.
If the life span has been extended to match a human span, they may still have
"heats", but they will be less frequent. An extended life span would also
mean that a litter would be smaller, possibly being only a single birth.
Wether or not a Vagar female would have sex outside of her fertile period is
her own business....
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:25:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

>The actual chance that someone is gay is closer to 3-4 % and there
>chance of being bisexual is also about 3-4%.  
>
3-4%, Did sombody check the closets?
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:38:32 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: What is science? (mild rant)

In TML digest #1202, Solomani & Joseph Lockett squabbled:

Solomani writes:

> So whats Science?, Science is the systematic study of man and his
> environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be
> made , and the general laws which can be formulated from
> reproducable observatiosn and measurements of events within teh
> universe.

This summarises as: science involves producing models which describe 
the behaviour of the real world.  The test of scientific accuracy is 
how well the predictions of a model compare to systematic and 
repeated experiment or inferences from it.

As has been pointed out, while Aristotle produced theories concerning 
the physical world, he appears to have taken very little notice of 
whether they predicted physical behaviour accurately or not.  Their 
physical accuracy was secondary to their philosophical "truth".  This 
has more in common with Xeno's paradox than modern science.  The 
philosophical underpinnings of modern science may be Aristotle's -- 
he wanted a consistent framework for everything -- but the important 
element of adapting the model is absent.

It is not wiggish (or even whiggish) to dismiss Aristoltle as a 
*modern* scientist when we are discussing modern or super-modern 
science.

The distinction people are failing to make is between observation and 
interpretation.  Observation: things burn.  Models: (i) the fire god 
is at work, (ii) phlogiston, (iii) oxygen combustion, (iv) reactive 
collision between O2 molecules and the material, resulting in a whole 
host of secondary reactions in which HO...CO complexes are important.
The models/interpretations develop additional degrees of complexity 
to incorporate other scientifically-determined facts, like the 
existence of oxygen, for instance.  Each is consistent with an 
ever-broader series of observations and the models which explain 
them.

The point is that if we know a thing happens in the real world, then 
*under the same circumstances* in a SF world, it will happen the same 
way.

> Why such stabs at my education and character?  I havnt shown you any
> disrespect.  What, am i getting a bit close to the truth am i? 
> Starting to feel a sting are you?

He's probably averse to misspelled, badly typed arguments.  It really 
does prejudice people against the content of the argument... it's 
particularly visible on TML since AFAIK all the other regular 
contributors write very accurately.  (Special praise for those with 
mainland European email addresses -- I find your English is always
extremely good.)

As for arguing about DNA being a double-helix (or thereabouts, and 
yes I'm aware of research into base-pair substitutions etc.), this is 
not a convenient model.  Watson and Crick perfomed X-ray 
crystallographic measurements on DNA, which gave the relative 
positions of all the atoms.  (It's inaccurate for hydrogen, but 
that's not relevant.)  The geometry of the atomic arrangements was 
loosely that of a double helix.  In some circumstances DNA may lose 
this structure briefly (to replicate?).  In general, it's a double 
helix.

This rant brought to you by a scientist who doesn't do experiments, 
but still compares his work to experimental data.


Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:11:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fighters BB Killing Weapons

At 23:09 14/04/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>>>For example, if we come up with good enough storage designs, that 1000
>>>g missile can be built using an antimatter rocket engine. And it'll be
>>>*nasty*. 
>>
>> Maybe so, but God help the poor sods in an A-M equipped ship when the power
>> goes down...
>
>Not really. That's what *batteries* are for. And most designs are such
>that they won't "leak" in freefall anyway.
>
>Now if you get an interior hit in the antimatter storage, *that's* a
>problem. 

I think you're right, but there would be a risk that the shot that did the
damage produced some strange acceleration from atmosphere outgassing, etc.
Now that'd make life really exciting. And you couldn't accelerate until the
storage fields were back on-line, so you'd be toast.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:11:16 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (long)

At 22:41 14/04/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>But they did a lot of nasty things while still being a democracy! So
>have other countries. And the famed democracy of the ancient Greeks was
>primarily used to exile people that the rest of the citizens didn't
>like. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
Actually the 'democracy' of Classical Athens was really just an
exceptionally open Oligarchy. No votes for women, certainly none for slaves.
Citizenship required that all your grandparents were citizens.

I suspect that the first country that was anywhere near being a true was
France after the revolution. If you disallow it on the basis of no women
voters (which means that somewhat under 50% of the population gets to vote),
then New Zealand is the first (but it's not a republic - yet).
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:11:08 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Realism and "Literary" SF role-playing

At 00:39 15/04/97 -0700, Craig Berry wrote:
>
>Sound great!  I know this is off-topic for the TML, but one of my favorite
>pieces of color from 2300 AD is (and I don't recall if this was ever
>officially pointed out) the visual effect of a ship pulling alongside you
>using stutterwarp at >c.  Suddenly, out of nowhere, the ship is just
>*there*...then, very rapidly, a flickering series of images of the ship
>recedes along the line of travel the ship just traversed, vanishing
>quickly into the distance.  Something gloriously surreal about that.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>       "Every man and every woman is a star."
>
It's mentioned in a Challenge (don't know which one, though).
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:11:20 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

At 10:30 15/04/97 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>
>Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> writes
>
>>Quoth Rupert Boleyn:
>>> If the law of Conservation of Momentum isn't broken in T4 then how do
>>> thrusters work? I thought that FF&S did away with them for this very reason.
>
>>Momentum is conserved, the two components just aren't connected.  That is
>>to say, your typical starship might mass some 1E9 grams, but the star (and
>>attendant gravity well) against which its thruster plates push masses on
>>the order of 1E33 grams, so it's kinda hard to notice its recoil....  :-)
>
>This turns out not to work, if you do the numbers - you can't conserve
>momentum and energy simultaneously with thrusters, even if they are magically
>connected to a planet. (Energy turns out to be much more of a problem than
>momentum - in the solar-system-rest frame, most accelerating thruster craft
>are gaining kinetic energy much more rapidly than their power plant is
>generating energy. That's why thrusters lead to 0.1 c death-lifeboats - 
>thruster-powered ships get kinetic energy for free. Some day I should post my
>Thruster Perpetual Motion Machine.
>
>Bruce

And to think that there was that huge stink over HEPlaRs' fuel/energy
efficiency.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:11:43 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

At 21:47 15/04/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 04/16/97 at 12:55 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> said:
>
>> I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point
>> (say within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have
>> the same Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the
>> same formation they went in. I also generally assume that when doing this
>> the ships all calculate the jump, and cross-check each other, thus giving
>> a very accurate jump.
>
>This has only come up a few times in games I've run, but here's the method
>I've used.
>
>1.  All ships must be using Refined Fuel.
>
>2.  All ships must have the same course and vector leading up to the jump.
>
>3.  All ships must be making a jump equal to or less than their maximum
>rated jump.
>
>4.  All ships begin the jump-injection on a single signal.
>
>5.  One Astrogator does the lock on and transmits the data to the other
>ships, and they all jump together with as little variance in timing as
>possible.
>
>If all these conditions are met, then the ships emerge at the other end
>within 7-2d6 minutes of ETA.  The "Time in Jump" (TIJ)..or ETA..is still
>160+2d6 hours.  Ships emerge in the same formation as when they jumped. 
>Entire fleets *can't* coordinate well enough to do this, but small
>squadrons and divisions can.
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
That's basically what I had in mind, but bear in mind that with quality
atomic clocks (or use a quasar) even a big fleet could jump in sync.

The reason I required all the ships to calculate the jump and cross
reference was to get the 'slow calculation' accuracy in minimal time,
through paralellel processing.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:16:43 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Anti-H2 in C60

I don't hold high hopes for your antimatter-in-Buckyball storage system.
The positrons (anti-electrons) from the anti-H2 will overlap with the
electrons from the C60.  That will get messy soon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:14:51 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: 2D <-> 3D mapping

Your assertion that there is a greater infinity of points in a 3D space
than a 2D space is incorrect.  The number of points in a line is the
same as the number of points in a plane is the same as the number of
points in a solid is the same as the number of irrational numbers.

Here is an example of one such mapping.  Take a 2-D plane, with
coordinates X and Y.  Let x and y be decimal digits of X and Y (we're
working in base ten here).  Form the irrational number:

I = 0.xyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxy...

made by interchanging digits from X and Y.  Remember, X and Y can be
irrational, so they go on forever.  However, I is irrational too, so
it goes on forever as well.

Now, move to 3D space.  Let X, Y and Z be coordinates in a solid.
x, y and z are digits of the above, as before.  Now read I as:

I = 0.xyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyz...

This gives you values of X, Y and Z.  Thus, we have a unique mapping
between every 2D point and every 3D point.  It's certainly not
a mapping that you'd want to use for Traveller hyperspace, but it
demonstrates the point.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:55:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re:Ship dammage to PC dammage

<QUOTE ON>
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 --
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:11:37 -0700
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Ship damage in Emperor's Arsenal

Several of the large TL 13-15 Plasma Cannons list a ship damage figure
(i.e. 11-0-0-0).  Anyone know what the conversion is between dice of
damage to PC's and ship damage?

Specifically, I'd like to know how a small ship's laser will affect a guy in
Augmented Battledress.
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 ----
<QUOTE OFF>

I think the answer lies in our "Rosetta Stone", that being in the form of 
the SSDS USD conversion chart.  The Dammage from a small civy laser is a USD 
of 1, using the chart the laser has a dammage rate of 20 or more, I would 
say that the ship laser would cut trough the B-Dress and vape the poor 
person within.

This would comply with the 'common sense' rule.  If the thing can knock out 
weapons, sensors, and punch holes in the fuel tanks, it should be able to 
vape a Jarhead in full Aug. BD.

So the EA has TL13-15 Plasma Cannons eh?  Here i was trying to make one with 
old FF&S for a ship spinal mount at TL-12.  I have GOT to get this book! :)

Commander X at the silly office place.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:16:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Missiles+Fighters

>The wave will follow the inverse square law. So range matters. I don't
>know what the *current* sensitivity of gravity wave detectors is. But a
>quick way of evaluting signal strength is to figure out how much the
>gravitational acceleration at the sensor *changes*. For a ship jumping
>in or out, the formula is A=GM/R^2. A is the acceleration, M is the
>mass of the ship, and R is the distance to the point it is
>appearing/disappearing.

The sensitivity of them is pretty weak and under debate as to wether they
work at all. The problem with building good ones is to have them at rest,
keep them cool and don't subject them to vibrations: (put them in zero G
far from a planets gravity ie orbit around sun far out to keep equilibrium
temp low and keep them uncrewed with little or no moving parts. They're
designed to detect cosmic gravity waves that occur when big stuff fall into
black holes, neutron stars ie large masses accelerating a lot and
incredible ranges. I feel pretty shure that if todays devices work at all
they'd easily detect an incoming or outgoing starship(jumping). One problem
is that they're directional (one magnetically suspended cylinder coated
with piezoelectric size measurer I think) but one can envision spherical
ones with far less sensitivity but omnidirectional.

One cool adventure possibility is that in order to render such a device
useless simply go there with your ship, out the airlock and give the thing
a good kick with your spaceboots. The vibrations would either permanently
damage the thing or render it useless a couple of days.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:58:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

<Leaping to the table where the deal is being signed>

"Gary Gygax, thou art avenged!"


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:58:33 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

At 10:39 PM 4/15/97 -0700, Craig wrote:

>That's because the CT rules never really nailed down what maneuver drives
>were; the only clues were nozzle-looking things at the aft end of (some) 
>deckplans.  In my way-back-when CT campaign, I waffled...at first, I said
>they were fusion rockets, then decided that I wanted to be able to land
>ships without starting firestorms, and moved to reactionless thrusters.

Actually, he switched after I powered up my type A Free Trader *inside* the
hanger...  Suddenly, I couldn't toast things anymore....

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:00:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: A purchaser's plea!

- -> > I would hope thar IG starts to adopt a SJG-like playtesting scheme, 
- -> > that includes sending pre-production data and texts out to a number 
- -> > of playtesters who can examine and critize the product BEFORE it is 
- -> > printed (I would volunteer ;-)!!! 
- -> 
- -> We've been using playtesters since the changeover (remember, M0 and FS 
- -> were made when the old management was in charge; they were just printed 
- -> afteward).  Pocket Empires had seven or so playtesters.  Psionic 
- -> Institutes has several playtesters (no, we don't need any more at this 
- -> time[G]).  Greg Porter has always maintained good relations with the 
- -> GDW-Beta folks, and runs a lot of stuff past them, too.
Well, that's at least one relief!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1202

> From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
> Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
> 
> I do understand, more than you can imagine.  Your quibbling over a modern
> definition of a scientist, which you havent defined yet, so i will
> a Scienctist, is nne versed in or devoted to science.
> 
> So whats Science?, Science is the systematic study of man and his
> environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
> and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
> observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.
> 
> So, where does aristotle fail?  Just because he didnt use an electronic
> microscope and didnt wear a white jacket?  He was limited to is own
> primitive instruments and his own physical limitations but he formulated
> theories on what he observed in the universe.  His a scientist in my
> books, and his also considered a scientist but most scientific historians 
> ive read.

I don't really want to jump into a flame war, but I just can't stand it.

Look, by your own definition "Science... can be formulated from reproducable
observations and measurements...". Aristotle fails in that HE DIDN'T MAKE
MEASUREMENTS OR OBSERVATIONS! He conducted a lot of thought experiments.
He said stuff like "Men are superior to women because they have more teeth".
He never counted a single tooth though!!! He just figured that's the reason
that men were superior. This is, at best, philosophy. 

Anyways, Arisotole is not a scientist, or at least, he is not a "studier of
science" by your own definition. 

Now, true, at the time, he was as close as you could get to a modern scientist,
in that he attempted to formulate reasons for how the world worked, but he 
did not use anything close to the scientific method. A lot of Greeks
of that period were "pretty close" to being scientists, but often got
science and philosophy (and geometry) confused. (eg. "men are better
than women because they can trisect angles" ;) )

A lot of those Greeks made decent engineers though... drinking, womanizing
(er, manizing ?), slapping up a few bridges and getting their science all
wrong.

ObTrav: "You're in a starport bar and this bearded guy in a toga walks in..."

Ethan "Putting BS back in B.A.Sc" Henry
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:15:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: WotC getting T$R

I've always pictured T$R as pseudo-Ferengi...

T$R: "Mine!  All mine!  That's mine, too!  No!  You can't have it!  It's
     mine!!!"

..and now along comes WotC...

WotC: "Resistance is futile!  You will be assimalated!"

:-)

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:26:27 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Steampunk

>This reminds me of "The Difference Engine" by Bruce Sterling and William
>Gibson.  Babbages engine actually became like our computer system of today
>and changed the face of the middle 19th century.  An interesting read for all
>of you interested in the "steampunk"/Jules Verne  thingy.

A good read.  Criton's "The Great Train Robbery" is a better source for the
slang of the period.  Particularly the criminal slang.

The difference Engine was interesting in how it showed technology 'steaming
ahead' in some areas, but lagging behind in others.  The medical sciences
were on target for the period for example.  


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:44:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

Shadow writes

>Bruce wrote
>> (Energy turns out to be much more of a problem than
>> momentum - in the solar-system-rest frame, most accelerating thruster craft
>> are gaining kinetic energy much more rapidly than their power plant is
>> generating energy.

>Well, that's because you *assumed* that they could violate conservation
>of energy. If you limit the KE increase to the power plant's output,
>then you conserve both momentum and energy. 

Well, I was trying to discuss classic Traveller thruster plates...

The problem with the variation you (and others) suggested, in which 
acceleration goes down as velocity increases (to maintain
mv dv/dt = P) is that it only conserves energy in one reference frame.
Transform to a different frame - for example, one at rest initially with 
respect to the (moving) starship before it begins accelerating again - and
you're no longer conserving energy. I suppose you could just toss away
frame invariance and have a privledged frame that thruster plates conserve
energy with respect to...although I have a lingering feeling that that doesn't
work either.

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1205
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1206



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Life is Hard in Traveller
APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (5 of 5)
APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (3 of 5)
APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (2 of 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:40:39 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Life is Hard in Traveller

>From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>

(I said MT task system was an integral part of it and I wanted to use EA, etc)

>Conversions are possible.  Not having EA yet, I can't say how, but I don't
>see any unsolvable problems here.

        Yes... it's just that is not very comfortable to make the
conversions for every new product... I prefer the MT task system & overall
rules, but I do not want to spend a weekend figuring out conversion
everytime IG releases a new product I like. Anyway, if somebody makes up
conversions, I hope he posts it to the list... ;-)

I said:
>>        The same can be said about Character Generation. It seems that T4
>>characters end with significatively more skills than MT characters, so,
>>using the MT task system, they will be making Formidable tasks on a routine

>Untrue actually.  The extra skills don't really matter that much (actually
>I think T4 Character generation + MT Task system is better than either MT
>or (especially) T4 alone.  You can get no more than +8 from skills and
>stats on an MT task. Also, I limit folks to a maximum skill of 6.  Skill
(Snip example)
>So in MT, the extreme expert succeeds on Formidable tasks half the time,
>while in T4 they succeed at everything up to Impossible tasks 3/4 of the
>time.  It looks to me like the MT task system + T4 char gen works much
>better than T4 and is not too easy, what problems do you see?

        I just haven't stopped to make extensive comparisons. I see your
point, and you are right. Moreover, I am happy because you are right. I will
be even more happy if I were able to see the overall picture... some tables
of compared probabilities. Somebody has made an extensive study? If the MT
task system is really good for T4 characters, somebody should tell IG !
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:56:03 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (5 of 5)

Erlir Class Patrol Cruiser (Type PC) 
(QSDS 1.5, The Big Hull List & SSDS)
Chris Cox <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>

Tons: 600dton (Needle S)  Volume: 8400 m3       Cost: 884.8MCr (669.3MCr)
Crew:  23                 Hi/Md P: 2            Low P: 0
Cargo: 14.6dton           Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL: 12

Size: 8                          2   Jump (60dton/Pc Fuel)
                                 4   Maneuver (T-plate, 24000 T/Thr)
Lsr trt 4x(+4) 1/6-5-3-2         8   Power Plant (2000 + 200, 200 MW)
Msl barb 2                     126.4 Fuel (S 240 R 3)
MFD 2x(+4) (8 ctrld)             4   Meson Screen (6 MW)
                                 2   Sandcasters (60 cans)
1 Sickbay 8dton                  2   Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
                               A16 P5 J16 Sensors (EMM 8.4MW)
                                20   Armor  19 Structure
                                96.8 Length (m)

Crew: 23 (2 elec 4 engr 2 mnvr 6 gun 5 scrn 3 cmd 1 medic )

Notes: The ship has 20 small staterooms and 5 large staterooms to
accommodate the ship's crew and two additional passengers.  While at full
acceleration, 4Gs, the ship's crew can operate a full efficiency as long as
they are strapped into their work stations.  However, in order for damage
control operations to take place the ship can only use a maximum of 3Gs of
acceleration.  The ship's 4 laser batteries with five lasers each can easily
be configured to operate as 2 batteries with 10 lasers each and would have a
rating of (+4) 1/9-9-5-3.  There is only enough fuel for the power plant to
run at full power for 3 months.
 
The Erlir Class Patrol Cruiser is built by the Ansha Starship Cooperative on
Ansha.  Ansha has long been in a state of cold war with the nearby world of
Gadirur.  When the Imperial expansion came Ansha quickly become a member of
the Imperium.  Ansha benefited from its membership in the Imperium by
gaining allied against Gadirur while the Imperium gained a means of keeping
Gadirur, which had been hostile to Imperium advances, in check.  The Erlir
Class Patrol Cruiser is the first ship to be built by the Ansha Starship
Cooperative that is fully compatible with Imperial Naval Service standards. 
Despite full comparability with INS standards, the Erlir class is distinctly
different from typical Imperial vessels in appearance.  Like all ship built
on Ansha the Erlir has a very organic shape.  Even more striking than the
shape are the wild color schemes that are exhibited on Ansha ships.  The
abstract color schemes are painted on the ships by artist priests, who while
having to follow certain guidelines still maintain much freedom in how a
ship ends up looking.

Design notes:  The Erlir is pretty much a typical Patrol Cruiser.  The
design favors features over cost.  The design was done with the assistance
of Craig Barry's QSDS spread sheet and includes a hull from Guy Garrnett's
Big Hull List and EMM from SSDS.  If the ship acceleration was base on its
mass it would only have an acceleration of 2Gs and personally this is the
way I would go.  The length for the ship was roughly calculated from
drawings of the ship.  And a thanks to Dr. Mark Clark for posting his design
to the TML.  After seeing his design I decided to spilt the 2 batteries of
10 lasers into 4 batteries of 5.

Please feel free to come and take look at the Erlir online at:
(http://users.aol.com/ogerdude/patcru.htm)
Be warned though, this page is under sever construction (damn taxes and
work) but will feature a picture of what the ship looks like.  No deckplans
yet but these should be added in a week or two.

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

FSY Bludgeon-class Patrol Cruiser (SSDS Beta .pdf)
Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

Tons: 700 Std (Needle SL)   Volume: 9,800 m^3              Cost: 798.7 MCr
Crew: 28                    High/Mid Pass: 0               Low: 0
Cargo: 5 Std                Controls: Hi Auto (no Bridge)  TL: 12

08 Size                                  03 Jump Drive (210 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                         06 Maneuver (T-plates, 1050 Mw)
01x 3600mj NPAW Spinal (+4) 2/8-8-8-5    05 Power Plant (1x 1750 Mw)
05x 251mj H lasers     (+4) 1/6-5-3-2    210 Fuel (no Scoop, no Refine)
                                         00 Meson Screen (0 Mw)
                                         04 Sandcasters (240 Cans)
                                         00 Nuclear Damper
                                         A10 P4 J10 Sensors (0 Stealth/Cloak)
                                         40 Armor, 20 Structure

Crew Detail: 4 Command, 4 Sensors, 15 Gunners, 4 Engineer, 1 Maintenance

Press release:

Famille Spofulam is please to announce its entry for the Third ISBA THUDDD
competition. The Bludgeon-class Patrol Cruiser is designed around the
philosophy that when patrolling the lawless frontiers of the evergrowing
Imperium, rife with pirates, smugglers, insurgents, and other criminal scum,
a big stick is required.  In this case, the big stick comes in the form of a
3600 Megajoule Spinal mount NPA gun, which allows the Bludgeon to strike
hard at ranges of up to 80 light seconds, well out of the effective range of
most of its expected adversaries.  Its secondary battery consists of five
MFD-coordinated 251 Megajoule heavy lasers, which in themselves are a
formidable threat to enemies of law and order.  Four sandcasters provide
defensive armament to supplement the Bludgeon's heavy armour.

All of this firepower is of little use if it cannot be brought to bear,
which is why the Bludgeon is propelled by a 6G Thruster-plate maneuver
drive, and has a 3-parsec jump drive.  Power is supplied by a 1,750 Mw
Zhunastu Fusion Systems reactor, capable of running the maneuver drive at
its maximum output while powering all weapons systems at double their
nominal ratings.  Likewise, in order to detect threats to public order, the
Bludgeon boasts of a full military sensor and electronics suite. 

The Bludgeon is a specialized law enforcement vessel.  While capable of
limited rescue work, it is designed first and foremost to keep the peace, as
a convoy escort, an anti-piracy or anti-smuggling patrol vessel, or in times
of conflict as part of a fleet or as an SDB.  Indeed, the presence of a
Bludgeon in-system should serve as a blood-curdlingly menacing psychological
deterrent (which can be augumented by custom colour schemes at purchasers'
request) to law-breakers.

The 28-person crew is accomodated in 21 bunks, with senior personnel sharing
3 small staterooms and the captain housed in a single small stateroom.
While spartan, this arrangement was deemed neccessary in order to house the
Bludgeon's heavy weapons, power and drive systems in a relatively small 700
ton needle hull.  5 tons of cargo space are provided, and crew comfort is
provided for with a 4 ton lounge.

The price tag for a Bludgeon is 798.7 Mcr.  While steep, it reflects the
Bludgeon's excellence as a patrol vessel.  The old Solomani adage "for want
of a nail, the battle was lost" should be remembered here: the vital
interests of freedom of trade and travel throughout the Imperium deserve the
best protection available; the Bludgeon.

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

GSbAG 'Montcalm' Patrol Crusier (SSDS)
Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>

Tons: 600 Std (Needle SL)  Volume: 8400 m^3                Cost: 761 MCr
Crew: 56                   High/Mid Pass: 4                Low: 0
Cargo: 10 Std              Controls: Std. Military/Bridge  TL: 12

 8 Size Rating                        2 Jump Rating (60 Std/Pc)
                                      2 Maneuver (Thrusters, 300MW, No CG)
 4x Heavy Laser (+5) 1/4-2-0-0        5 Power Plant (Fusion, 1,000+500MW)
 4x Light Laser (+5) 1/3-0-0-0      136 Std Fuel (Scoop 54, Refine 8.3)
 2x Heavy Missle (+4) 10/10           0 Meson Screen
  w/ 20 extra missles each            2 Sandcasters
                                      2 Nuclear Damper
                                      A 10 P 4 J 10 Sensors (EMM)
                                      60 Armor  19 Structure

Crew Detail: 7 Command, 2 Maneuver, 3 Sensors, 38 Gunners, 
             4 Engineers, 1 Medical, 4 Maintenance + 1 spare bunk

Features: Sick Bay

Description:

GSbAG is pleased to unveil its latest in piracy suppression and  system
patrol craft. The 'Montcalm' patrol cruiser sports the latest in holo-linked
dyanmic fire control systems and enhanced fusion plants while maintaining
the classic GSbAG jump and thruster systems that have  been honed to
perfection over millenia. A total of 20 laser turrets 
and 4 heavy missle turrets can take on even the most determined threats to
safe commerce without fear. The addition of GSbAG's latest in nuclear damper
technology, in conjunction with high-refraction, low-dispersion sandcasters,
means that battles will often be taken without even damaging the hull ID
markings. The 'Montcalm' sets the standard for system patrol in the new
Imperium.

In addition to standard crew accomodations, the 'Montcalm' has enough
command crew cabins to support up to 4 extra command staff and has 10 tons
of customizable storage space, suitable for mission equipment or for
supplies on extended patrols. A sick bay is provided to further extend the
range and increase the mission flexibility of the 'Montcalm'.

Design notes:

I designed two versions of this ship - the second had only 3 heavy and 3
light laser batteries, but put _all_ of the crew in G-tanks and pulled 4Gs.
It cost 780 MCr. It required 7 fewer gunners as well, leaving 8 empty bunks
for ship's troops. In each case the hull was built for 6Gs. This other
version of the ship would be good in that it could certainly outrun almost
any pirates, but suffers in that it's a bit less well armed.

All the lasers have their power usage increased by 10x to bring them  up to
ROF 100.

The cabin breakdown is 4 large staterooms, 10 small staterooms and  50 bunks.

I think it meets the specs of being well armed, both offensively and
defensively, it meets the jump & manuver requirements and it's not
excessively expensive, for a 600 Std ship.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:42 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (3 of 5)

The Torden class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS and FF&S for hull design) 
Bertling Construction Company
Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

Tons: 600 Std (Needle A)  Volume : 8400 cub.m.                Cost: 556MCr 
Crew: 22 Troops: 4        High pass.: 2    
Cargo : 3                 Controls: Stand. Military (Bridge)  TL12
 
8 Size Rating                       2 Jump Rating (60 Std/Pc fuel)
                                    4G Maneuver (HEPlaR, 1260Mw) 
2x Laser Battery (+4) 1/3-3-2-0     6.33 Power Plant (9x200Mw+2x50Mw)
2x Laser Battery (+4) 1/2-2-0-0   132 Fuel Rating (S 120, R 10)
2x Missile Barb. (+4) 5/5           3 Meson Screen (3Mw)
                                    2 Sandcasters (30 cans)
2x10Std Docking Ring              10A 4P 10J Sensor Rating  
1x20Std Docking Ring               50 Armor  16 Structure
Sickbay

Crew Detail: 4xCommand, 3xEngineering, 2xElectronics,
             2xManeuver, 8xGunnery, 1xScreens, 1xStewards,
             1xMedical, 3xSmall Craft Pilots, 4xTroops

The Torden Patrol Cruiser is Bertlings design for the third THUDDD-contest.
It is a ship buildt with a specially designed 600 displacement tons large
needle airframe hull. A high quality High Energy Plasma Reaction engine
insures a reliable 4G acceleration for the 20G-hours of fuel it has in its
tanks. Using the fuel available in the jump-tanks increases its duration to
about the double. A fuel purification plant is also installed to make the
Torden a more independent ship. Fuel scoops capable of taking aboard 120
tons of fuel each hour are also included. 

Nine 200Mw and two 50Mw powerplants produce the power available for the
Torden, for a total of 1900Mw of power. But even then the Torden has a
shortage of 3.31Mw. But this should not be a problem as there seldom is the
need for running all systems at ones. The Torden has 3 months worth of fuel
available in the power plant fuel tanks. More fuel can easily be transferred
from the other tanks. 

The Torden is equiped with a large array of offensiv weaponry. Four high
quality Laser Tech produced laser batteries gives the Torden the punch it
needs in a firefight. Two missile barbettes each holding 5 missiles insures
that most treats will be handeled in an efficent way. But it is its defensiv
capabilities that makes the Torden the state of the art patrol cruiser. Two
sandcasters and a meson screen gives a high defensive capability towards
laser batteries and meson guns. And to top this of the superdense special
designed hull insures that the Torden will maintain its integrety until most
treats can be dealt with.  

The Torden also incorperates the latest in electronic equipment. The sensor
and communication packages fills the standards we here at Bertling feel
military starships must have. And the controls fills the QSDS-standard for
military ships. 

The Torden also has three docking rings, two 10 dtons and one 20 dton. This
allows for a multitude of different ships to be carried increasing the
mutlipurpose function of the Torden.  

The Torden needs a crew of 22 to function at it peak performance. This
includes a steward and a medic. All crew members have bunks, except for the
command crew, steward and medic which all are supplied with small
staterooms. There is also installed eight extra bunks for troops and small
craft crew. 

Three large staterooms are available. One is the crews common room and
messhall. The two others are to accomodate visitors, military VIPs or
inspection offisers. 

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

New Victoria Guardian-class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
 
Tons: 400 Std (Ndl AF){1}  Volume: 5600 m^3             Cost: 357.9 {*}
Crew: 29                   High/Mid Pass: 2             Low: 0
Cargo: 4 Std               Controls: MilStd (Bridge)    TL: 12
 
08 Size                               02 Jump Drive (40 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                      04 Maneuver (Thruster, 406 Mw) {2}
02x MilLaser Batt (+4) 1/04-04-03-02  05 Power Plant (5 * 200 Mw)
02x Missile Turret (+4) 04/04         85 Fuel (Scoop 160, Refine 5) {3}
 w/ 16 Missiles                       00 Meson Screen 
                                      02 Sandcasters (60 Cans)
01x SL Grapple (20 DspT armed gig)    00 Nuclear Damper
                                      A10 P4 J10 Sensors 
                                      20 Armor, 16 Structure
 
Crew Detail: 4 Command, 2 Sensors, 7 Gunnery, 3 Engineering, 2 Maneuver
             1 Steward/Medic, 2 Small Craft, 8 Troops.
                                             
Notes:  {1} Actually a 380/400 Ndl AF hull.
        {2} G-compensation limits routine acceleration to 3Gs.
        {3} Only six months power-plant fuel carried.
        {*} Price breakdown: 
            Vessel                      MCr 343.9 (458.5 before discount)    
            20 DspT armed gig           MCr  31.5
            Total:                      MCr 375.4
  
New Victoria Naval Architects, LIC, is proud to present its new
Guardian-class patrol cruiser. Designed to meet the combined Imperial Navy /
Imperial Ministry of Commerce requirement for a light combatant craft
suitable for scouting, escort, and anti-piracy 
duties, NVNA believes that the Guardian-class spells the death of piracy in
the Imperium. Its heavy armament - six high-powered laser turrets organised
into two batteries, plus twin missile turrets - is more than capable of
dealing with any pirate vessel encountered, while twin sandcasters and an
armoured hull provide a more-than- adequete defence. And in the event of
multiple targets, the Guardian can take advantage of it's superior fire
control facilities and 4G acceleration to stand off and pummel the enemy
from long or even extreme range. 

The Guardian's electronics suite matches its armament in quality and
capabilities; it is equipped with an advanced communications suite with
multiple tightbeam communicators to allow it to function effectively in
small anti-piracy squadrons or as part of a larger fleet, and the controls
are radiation hardened for survivability. The sensors are the same
ISDP-standard military package used in NVNA's acclaimed Condottieri-class
mercenary cruiser, and ought to be superior to those of most pirate vessels.

The crew are provided with four large and seventeen small staterooms - size
depending upon rank, as according to standard Imperial Navy regulations -
with an extra pair of large staterooms provided for the transport of VIPs,
intelligence personnel or other passangers. In the event that no passangers
are carried, these rooms can be utilised as extra recreational space for the
eight ship's troops, who are provided with bunks. Adjacent to the ship's
magazine is four tons of cargo space, which can be used as a ship's locker,
for the transport of essential cargoes, or as extra missile storage. The
ship is also equipped with a two-bed sick-bay for dealing with wounded.

The Guardian is equipped with fuel scoops, providing wilderness refueling
capability, and its ISDP purification plant is capable of refining a full
load of fuel in seventeen hours. Finally, a streamlined external grapple and
two small staterooms are provided to allow the use of standard 20 dspT small
craft. Currently it is envisioned that the Guardian will be equipped with a
20 dspT armed gig as a utility vehicle, though tests are being conducted as
to the feasability of carrying a pair of light fighters for extra firepower.
In the latter case one of the VIP staterooms will be used to quarter the
necessary small-craft maintenance personnel.
 
20 dspT Armed Gig (FF&S - but see notes)
             
GENERAL DATA
Displacement: 20 tons           Hull Armour: 30
Length: 20 meters               Volume: 280 m^3
Price: MCr 31.54                Target Size: VS
Configuration: Wedge SL         Tech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 431.07/389
                                              
ENGINEERING DATA
Power Plant: 68 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 month duration (0.85 MW surplus power)
G-rating: 3G (Thruster plates; 1400 tonnes thrust); contra-grav lifters.
G-Turns: infinite (well, until the power runs out)
Maint: 16
 
ELECTRONICS
Computer: 2 * TL-12 Mod St Computers (0.4 MW each)
Commo: 30000 km radio (1 hex; 1 MW), 1000AU maser (infinite; 0.6 MW)
Avionics: TL-10+ Avionics, TL-12 TF Avionics
Sensors: Passive EMS fixed array 60000 km (2 hexes; 0.06 MW)
         Active EMS 60000 km (2 hexes; 12.5 MW)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking Package (0.28 MW)
Controls: Flight deck with 2 workstations
 
ARMAMENT
Offensive: 1 * TL-12 civilian laser (1/1-0-0-0 ; 13.3 MW), 6 SL external
grapples for missiles.
 
ACCOMODATIONS
Life Support: Extended (0.056 MW), Gravitic Compensators (1.4 MW)
Crew: 2 (1 * maneuver/sensors, 1 * gunner/engineering)
Crew Accomodations: None, other than workstations.
Passenger Accomodations: 10 * cramped seat.
Cargo: 27 m^3
Air Locks: 1
 
NOTES:
        A small scouting/utility vessel for use with the Guardian. Passenger
seats are provided for boarding actions, and can be removed, adding an extra
25 m^3 of cargo space. Designed using FF&S, with thruster costs and laser
taken from QSDS tables. 
 
DESIGN SEQUENCE (Guardian):
 
                        Crew    Volume  Cost    Surface Power
Hull - Needle AF-12            <375.1>   20.7  <1996.0>  68.9       
Jump-2                   0.4     12.0    50.4     56.0         Eng
Fuel-2                           80.0   
Thrusters: 4G            1.0     29.0   101.5     82.0  406.0  Eng
Fusion Plant [5*200]     1.0     35.5   100.0         <1000.0> Eng
Fuel tankage                      5.0                          6 months    
Bridge w/ 18 W/S                 18.0
6 Lg SRooms                      24.0     0.6
17 Sm SRooms                     34.0     0.68 
8 bunks                           8.0     0.04
Magazine (16 missiles)            8.0    
Cargo                             4.0
20 dspT SL grapple                6.0     0.2    576.0
20 dspT small craft              20.0               
Controls: StdMil-12               3.4    18.2      0.3    2.5
Sensors: SmlMil-12       0.8      1.2    62.5     44.6   85.2  Sen 
Commo: Adv-12            0.8      0.0     2.0    203.0   21.5  Sen
Missile Turret           1.0      3.0     0.1     10.0    0.2  Gun
Missile Turret           1.0      3.0     0.1     10.0    0.2  Gun
MFD-12                   1.0      2.3    25.6      2.1    3.1  Gun
Laser Battery (3*)       1.0     26.3    34.6     62.1  203.1  Gun 
Laser Battery (3*)       1.0     26.3    34.6     62.1  203.1  Gun 
Sandcaster               1.0      3.0     0.8     10.0    1.0  Gun (30)
Sandcaster               1.0      3.0     0.8     10.0    1.0  Gun (30)
Sickbay (2 bed)                   8.0     5.0             0.8
Fuel Purif: 5 dspT / hr          12.0     0.1             2.5
 
                                375.0   458.5           999.1
                                        343.9
                                     
Crew:                   
Engineering             2.4     3
Electronics             1.6     2
Maneuver                2.0     2
Gunnery                 7.0     7
Troops                  8.0     8 
Small craft             2.0     2
Commmand                3.0     4
Hi Pass                 2.0     2
Medic                   0.1  }                          
Steward                 0.5  }  1
 
Total                          29 + 2 pass; 18 W/S 

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:33 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (2 of 5)

Surefire Class Patrol Cruiser						
Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Naval Architects, Inc., Sylea.
Martin F C Pickett <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>

**Important notes** 

This vessel can be constructed at any shipyard that is fully certified to
QSDS1.5 (BTOH).  Although auxiliary craft hangers or launch facilities may
be provided, no auxiliary craft are included in the cost of this vessel
unless explicitly stated below. RGNA accepts no liability for any loss or
injury caused by or related to construction, repair, normal operation or any
other usage of any vessel design aquired directly or indirectly from RGNA or
any associate.

**End of notes**

RGNA proudly presents the Surefire class Patrol Cruiser.  A starship
designed with loving care to meet the most exacting of requirements, the
Surefire class is the ideal vessel for peacetime smuggling/anti-piracy
patrols and inspections, and wartime light commerce raiding, escort and
screening duties.

Surefire Class Patrol Cruiser						

Tons: 400 Std (Box S)   Volume 5600 m^3	          Cost 338.7 Mcr	
Crew: 21                High/Mid Pass: 3          Low: 0	
Cargo: 1.4 Std          Controls: Mil (Bridge)    TL: 12	

8 Size    	                  2 Jump Drive (40 Std/Pc Fuel)
2G Maneuver (Thruster, 210 Mw)
3x Laser(+4) 1/4-4-3-2            5 Power Plant (1x 1000, 1x 50Mw)
1x Missile(+4) 10/4              91.2 Fuel (Scoop 160/hr, Refine 10/hr)
 w/ 10 Missiles                   2 Sandcasters (60 Cans)
                                  2 Nuclear Damper (30 Mw)
1x 10t Minimal Hanger(Launch)   A10 P4 J10 Sensors 
                                 20 Armour, 16 Structure

Crew Detail:    3 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 8 Gunners,	
                2 Aux Craft Crew, 3 Command, 1 Medical	

Notes: 
There are 21 small and 3 large staterooms provided. In normal operation the
command crew will occupy the 3 large staterooms leaving 3 small empty.  Up
to 3 passengers may be carried in either the small or large staterooms, or 6
if double occupancy of the large staterooms is required.

No steward has been included in the standard crew roster as per the crew
requirements rule in QSDS: "Ships that carry high passengers, or have a
total crew larger than 25, must have at least one steward." I have taken
this to mean that the Surefire (21 crew 0 pass.) does not need a steward.
When carrying additional personnel, 1 will need to be a steward if the
reamining 2 are treated as passengers.

Design notes: 

The specification calls for stand-alone operation against groups of
pirate/raiding vessels and the ability to work in conjunction with larger
fleet actions.  I have assumed that the most likely opponents will be
civillian vessels of similar tonnage or light scouts/fighters.  The 3
long-range laser batteries have been chosen to provide a stand-off
capability, with sandcasters and nuclear dampers to provide point-defense.
Given the nature of opponents, a meson screen did not seem to be indicated.
The advanced comms and mil-spec sensors should support coordinated fleet
actions.  Wilderness refuelling is by way of scoops and the purification
plant, and a hanger for a launch or possibly a light fighter is provided.

If I had been able to find my copy of SSDS, I might have designed a custom
hull with more armour, but the one chosen from the Big Table of Hulls (TL
12) will have to do.

My original design was based on the 600 Box S hull, and carried 4x7-6-4-3
laser batteries, a 12 ton hold for confiscated goods and a 10 bunk brig for
prisoners, but cost an extra 200Mcr.  The QSDS worksheets are available at

http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceemfcp/tml/thudd04.xls
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceemfcp/tml/thudd04.txt
(600t Excel 5.0 Win/ASCII)

http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceemfcp/tml/thudd04a.xls
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceemfcp/tml/thudd04a.txt
(400t Excel 5.0 Win/ASCII)

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

X-TEK PC-1 "Drakken" Class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS1.5, SSDS/FF&S for Hull and
Masking)

Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>

Tons: 400Td. (Wedge SL)	 Volume: 5600m^3             Cost: 404.6Mcr
Crew: 15                 Lg SR:5  Sm SR:10           Low: Emrg (4)
Cargo: 20Td              Controls: Dyn Link(Bridge)  TL-12
     +5Td Missile Storage
     2xSize Sickbay (4 Beds)	

Size Factor: 8                      02 J-Drive(40Td/Pc Fuel)
                                    06 M-Drive(TPlates, 602Mw)
01xMissile Barbette (+4) 5/10       05 Power (01x1000Mw)
02xMil Twin Lsr Bat (+4) 1/3-2-0-0  02 Sandcasters (30 cans each)
                                   A10 P4 J10
                                    Armour 40 Structure 16

Crew Detail: 3 Engineer, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 5 Gunner, 2 Command, 1 Medic
Total: 15
							
Notes: The hull was designed by X-TEK specificaly for this vessle.  The USL
400Td Wedge from QSDS was altered to a Strealined config to provide
atmospheric entry and wilderness refueling.  The only apparent difference is
the cost of the streamlining, as the CG Lifters, GravComps, Life Support,
Armour and Internal  Structure were unchanged from the original.  This hull
also has EM Masking ability.  This mission specif hull was not given the 25%
QSDS discount, and this has been calcualted in the cost of the ship.

Hull: 400Td Wedge SL 6gmax   358.5 Useable Td.  107.7Mw  18.4Mcr  1993.0m^2
55m long

Designed to be a Lighning Fast Patrol/Interceptor Craft used mainly for
Anti-Piracy missions.  The "Drakken" can detect a ship at a distance, fire
missiles to "softern up" the target, and then leap from its lair at lighning
speed for the kill.  Its EM Masking ability makes it easy to hide in the
shadow of a gas giant, a frequent pirate hiding spot ,virtualy undetected.
The Drakken is also well armed and armoured for frequent combat activity.
The Medical officer and sick bay are available to patch up wounded
crewmates.  In crisis, the Med Officer can place up to 4 wounded in the
emergency low berths.  We hope that this will rarely happen on this ship,
but we at X-TEK believe in being prepared.

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Fiadhaine Enterprises Presents:

Geanna Class  Patrol Cruiser ( SSDS )
	Designed by: Brian A. Howard <bruadh@southwest.net>
					
					
Tons: 500std (AF Wedge)  Volume: 7,000 m3                Cost: 486.350 MCr
Crew: 23/28              Pass. High/Medium: 0/4          Pass. Low: 0 	
Cargo: 0.0 std           Controls: Mil Std (Bridge/Fib)  TL 12

8 Size Rating                      2 Jump Drive ( 50 std/pc fuel )	
                                   3 Maneuver ( Thruster, 375 Mw )	
2xLaser Emitters (+0) 1/2-0-0-0    3 Power Plant Rating (1x500Mw, 2x100Mw)
                                 107 Fuel ( /Scoop:2.5 /Refine:2.1)
                                   3 Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
                                   2 Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
                                   0 Meson Screen
                                   0 Black Globe
2xMissile Cells (+4) 5/8         A10 P4 J10 Sensors ( /EMM )
  w/35 Guided DetLsr 1d6/2 6G12   30 Armor, 14 Structure	
									
1xSick Bay ( 8 std )					
1xMinimal Hangar ( 20 std craft )				
4xGrapples ( 10 std craft )	
									
Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 9 gun, 4 eng, 5 crf, 1 stw, 1 med	
					
notes:
In the final years of the Sylean Federation, Zhunastu Shipbuilding LIC
produced a patrol cruiser which carried four standard light fighters
according to a plan conceived by Grand Duke Cleon Zhunastu (later Cleon I).
The intention was to overwhelm a pirate with many 'hard' bogies. The Fenian
follows the same strategy. The main offensive punch is the complement of
light fighters carried in external grapples and a large battery of missiles.
The mother ship is intended to stay safely at a distance; therefore, her
laser weaponry is short range but high ROF for missile defence. A standard
20T launch is carried in a minimal hanger for boarding actions. Four small
staterooms are allotted for inspectors or marines when the mission demands them.

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Generica Starships Model 45212 - Patrol Cruiser (QSDS)
Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

Tons: 500 Std (Slab S)                               Cost: 513.66 MCr
Crew: 25                High/Mid Pass: 2/0           Low: 0
Cargo: 2 STD            Controls: Military (Bridge)  TL: 12

08 Size                         02 Jump Drive (100 Std/20%)
                                04 Manuever (Thrust Plate)
4x Laser (+4)1/4-4-3-2        1750 Power Plant (1x1000, 1x750)
2x Missile (+4)                118.7 Fuel (Scoop 200, Refine 3)
                                04 Meson Screen
                                04 Sandcasters (30 Cans)
                                00 Nuclear Damper
10T Minimal Hanger             A16 P5 J16
                                20 Armor, 16 Structure

Crew Detail:	4 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Manuever, 9 Gunners
		1 Screens, 2 Aux Craft, 3 Command, 1 Steward
		1 Medical


Generica Starships offers the Type 45212 as a modestly-priced solution to
the demand for a anti-piracy and light fleet auxilery cruiser from both
Imperial and megacorporation officials.  Designed to be simple to construct
from standard components and easy to maintain, the Type 45212 can be
delivered in quantity in short order.

The design of the Type 45212 is based on an in-house threat analysis. The
majority of pirate vessals are either commercial starships or converted
commercial hulls with additional weaponry.  As a result, weaponry and
especially sensor equipment of pirates tends to be marginal by military
standards.  Thus, a combination of long range sensors and long range
weaponry allows the Type 45212 to engage and destroy threats at long range
with minimal danger to crew and equipment.

In fleet actions, the Type 4512 will be used as communication and sensor
support for small craft, as well as picket and courier duty.   This ship is
not intended for line-of-battle service, and it's relatively high
acceleration capability allows it to disengage from superior forces when
necessary.  Long range weapons, as well as a low-power meson screen, allow
the Type 45212 to operate in a useful way on the fringes of fleet engagements.  

The Type 45212 combines a mix of weaponry in an inexpensive package capable
of both fleet and independant operations.  Defense is a combination of
laser, sandcaster, and meson screens, as well as the potential to carry
small patrol craft to support the mission.  Offense consists of both
missiles (controled by a central fire director) and long-range lasers that
allow the Type 45212 to stand off and engage the enemy.  

Equiped with both a sick bay and fuel purification systems, the Type 45212
is capable of extended independant operations.  With a steamlined hull, it
can refuel rapidly by itself, and is not dependant on auxilery craft.  All
crew members are housed in roomy small staterooms rather than bunks to
provide additional comfort on long patrols.  The three command crew
(Captain, Gunnery Officer, and Chief Engineer) have large staterooms of
their own.  To accomadate additional command personell, two large sterooms
are provided.  By doubling up on crew space, up to 22 additional persons can
be accomadated.

Hanger space for two 5T fighters is provided, along with space for their
pilots.  Since current fighter doctrine is under review, no craft are
included in the bid.  If small fighters are not required under the final
operations orders, this space can be allocated to additional storage,
yeilding 20 tons extra space, or can be used for additional sandcasters or
missile turrets.  However, since it is our understanding that the Imperial
navy intends to retain fighters in the anti-piracy role, our design is
drafted with such craft in mind.

Generica Shipyards used only Sylea Industry Norm (SIN) components in this
design.  As a result, total cost reflects a substantial discount. Volume
production can commence immediatly, with large deliveries as needed.

Design Notes:

This design was a compromise, middle-of-the-road sort of thing, with a mix
of weaponry.  I originally wanted to put in a 100T TL-12 PA-Gun, but it did
not fit, darn it, at least not without compromising the other systems, since
the gun sucks so much power.  With a 600T hull it might just work, but the
QSDS 600T hull is only M2 and 10 points of armor.  I went for some
long-range lasers instead, to give the ship some punch to deal with small
opponents.  

I considered some smaller designs, but they seem less effective to me, since
there are fixed sizes for many of the components (sensors, fuel
purification, meson screen) and that robs space in a smaller hull.

If you decide small craft are not needed, there is room for a few more
things - I sized the power to leave about an extra 50 MW, so one could add
more missiles or sandcasters. 

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1206
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1207



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APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (1 of 5)
APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (4 of 5)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1203

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:23 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (1 of 5)

Here are the entries for the April THUDDD competition.  The Official Ballot
will follow.

The ship designed was a standard patrol cruiser.  Here is a review of the
design parameters:

# Must be capeable of standing alone against groups of pirate/raiding vessels.

# Must be able to work in conjunction with larger fleet actions.

# Must be capeable of wilderness refueling (Either directly or small craft)

# Must be cost effective (not necessarily cheap or inexpensive).

# Must be under 600 disp tons.  This requirement has been placed on the
designs in order to facilitate rapid construction of this vessel to help
assist in quenching piracy in the rapidly expanding imperium.  (ie. smaller
vessels can be built faster.)

# Required Minimums:
      Jump:  2                     Maneuver:  2
     Cargo:  Minimal          Carried Craft:  As Needed
   Offense:  Above Average          Defense:  Superior
      Crew:  Must have full medical facility.
             Must provide quarters for additional command personnell.  
                   (For inspections, and transport)

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Kommodo, Monitor Class Class Patrol Cruiser  (SSDS)
Designed by: Long Yards, John Long <jlong@wilmington.net>	

Tons: 600std (SL Wedge)  Volume: 8,400 m3         Cost: 824.933MCr (742.440
MCr)	
Crew: 17/19 (HighAuto)   Pass. High/Medium: 6/0         Pass. Low: 0(24 Emerg.)	
Cargo: 20.0std           Controls: Mil.Std (Bridge/Fib) Tech Level: 12	
						
8 Size Rating                      3  Jump Drive (60 std/pc fuel)	
                                   3  Maneuver (Thruster, 450 Mw)	
                                   3  Power Plant Rating (2x500Mw)	
1xLaser Battery (+4) 1/5-4-2-1    71 Fuel (Scoop:2.5/Refine:0.7)	
                                   2	 Sandcaster (30 cans)	
                                   1	 Nuclear Damper (15Mw)	
                                   3	 Meson Screen (2 Mw)	
                                   0	 Black Globe	
1xMissile Cell (+4) 10/12        A10 P4 J10  Sensors (EMM)	
 w/10 Guided DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12  40 Armor,  19  Structure
						
2xSick Bays (8 std ea.)				
1xMinimal Hangar (30 std craft)				
Crew Details: 2 cmd, 2 mvr, 2 elc, 4 gun, 1 scr, 2 eng, 0 mtn, 2 crf, 0 trp,
0 sci, 2 stw, 0 brk, 2 med
						
Notes:				
The Monitor Class Patrol Cruiser is designer to provide its owners with a
patrol/anti-pirate craft that can also be used in larger "Fleet Actions" if
necessary.  Designed on the 600 ton hull, it mounts a 3 parsec jump drive
with 3g acceleration provided by state of the art thruster plates.  It also
mounts a 1g contra grav drive giving it a total of 4g for those close
planetary occasions when speed/maneuverability are needed.

Offensivly it mounts 4 heavy laser turrets and 2 heavy missle turrets to
provide the necessary punch/deterrance needed for the patrol/anti-pirate duties.

Defensivly it mounts a factor 3 Meson screen and a 15mw lvl 1 nuclear
damper. It also mounts 2 sandcaster turrets for anti laser defense, and is
equipped with EMM 

In addition it carries a fully equipped sick bay with 16 beds, and 24
emergency low berths if necessary, a 30 ton subcraft ,of the purchasers
choosing(not included in the above price), in the enclosed hanger.  I has 10
small staterooms and 12 large staterooms for crew comfort on those long
patols, and if needed it can carry 6 extra "inspectors/officers" making it a
small command vessel if needed.

Finally the Monitor Class is equipped with fuel scoops and purification
plant to handle wilderness refueling.

While some may consider the Monitor class a bit pricey,  Long Yards
Maintains that we produce only the highest quality starships for the credit
and we back our ships with a lifetime Single purchaser warranty, that is if
you buy the ship from us and something fails (normal use/wear and tear
excluded) we will fix  and or replace the component or the ship if necessary
for no cost to the original purchaser.

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser (SSDS)
Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>

Tons: 300std (AF Disc)  Volume: 4,200m^3         Cost: 476.133MCr (428.520MCr)
Crew: 11/21 (HighAuto)  Pass. High/Med: 0/0      Passengers Low: 0 
Cargo: 0.0std           Controls: Mil Std (/Fib) Tech Level: 12

8 Size Rating                          2 Jump Drive (30std/pc fuel)
                                       6 Maneuver Drive (Thruster, 450Mw)
1xLaser Battery (+4) 1/4-3-2-1         4 Power Plant Rating (2x100Mw, 6x75Mw)
1xMissile Launcher (+4) 3/4           63 Fuel (/Scoop:5/Refine:1.3)
- --w/21 Guided DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12      1 Sandcasters (30 cans)
                                     A10 P4 J10 Sensors
2xExtra small staterooms (2std ea.)   50 Armor, 19 Structure
2xMission Bays (6std ea., see below)
1xSickbay (8std)
11xCrew G-Tanks (.14std ea.)
12xPassenger G-Tanks (.14std ea.)


Crew Details: 2 Command, 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 3 Gunnery, 1
Engineering, 8 Troops, 1 Steward, 1 Medical

Notes: The Akishu Irirkhan patrol cruiser is designed for anti-piracy,
commerce raiding, and system defense roles. However, the design is flexible
enough that the ship can serve in fleet roles as well. It has several
features that set it apart from other designs:

- - Small size. While some may not consider size a selling point, a smaller
ship can be built faster and is a smaller target.

- - Speed. The Akishu can sustain 6Gs of thrust, significantly faster than
most corsairs and smugglers. In fleet roles, the Akishu can be used as a
high-speed armed transport or scout vessel.

- - High survivability. The Akishu Irirkhan design concentrates on
survivability. A heavy armor belt provides more protection than many front
line ships, even though the Akishu's primary foes are primarily other
patrol-class ships and pirate vessels. The hull is braced for over 12Gs of
acceleration, which along with the airframe design allows for high speed
atmospheric maneuvering ( useful for gas giant high guard situations ) and
tight turning as well as providing the ability to absorb a great deal of
damage. The crewmembers and passengers (up to two) are provided G-Tanks,
which along with grav-dampers provide over 5Gs of compensation. This gives
the crewmembers a performance edge over other crews.

- - Staying power. The Akishu provides magazine space for 7 salvos of missile
fire - significantly more than most other designs.  

- - Stealth performance. In order to increase survivability and allow for
ambush tactics, the Akishu is armed with an advanced stealth suite. Wide
area jammers, EMM radiators, EMS absorbing composites and stealth-design
gives the Akishu an extremely low detection profile.

- - Crew comfort. Like most patrol cruiser designs, the Akishu is hard-pressed
for space. However, the Akishu uses automation systems to reduce crew
levels, allowing individual small staterooms for the crew, ships troops, and
two additional personnel. The design does not require "hot-bunking", which
can be a source of tension on long missions. In addition, the design
provides a two-bed sickbay and large common area.

- - Multi-mission capability. The Akishu has two six ton multi-mission bays
that are designed to allow quick upgrades and mission options. While these
upgrades cannot be performed in the field (they are not modules, like a
cutter), they can be installed in a couple of days at any class A, B, or C
starport that has the appropriate materials on hand. When empty, the bays
can be used as cargo space ( 6 tons each ) or additional space for
personnel, as each bay has six fold-down bunks. If needed, the ship's troops
can move into the bunks, freeing up eight staterooms. Or, the bays can be
used as brigs, as the bays can have security locks placed upon their doors.
The primary power plant provides 10Mw ( 14Mw when the fuel purification
system is offline ) of surplus power for the use of mission modules. Other
options include (but are not limited to ):

* Jump capsule launchers. In this mode, the Akishu can be used as a covert
commando vessel, able to inject up to eight commandos into hostile areas.
Each bay can hold a launcher and 4 capsules. ( Each launcher takes 1Mw,
.05MCr ).

* Additional missile launcher. This modification requires both bays, and
provides a launcher ( (+4) 3/4 ), MFD, workstation/G-Tank, and 12 missiles,
enough for 5 salvos. ( 3.25Mw, 25.68MCr )

* Additional lasers. This modification adds a large laser in a bay and ties
it into the primary laser battery MFD. If one additional laser is installed
(using one bay), the USP rating of the laser battery increases to 1/5-4-2-1.
If both bays have lasers installed, the USP becomes 1/6-5-3-2. No additional
power is required in either case, as the primary power system has enough
surplus power when the fuel purification system is offline. (Each laser
takes 6.9Mw, 2.43MCr). This is a common option in systems with heavy pirate
activity, as the additional firepower gives even the largest corsair a
reason to pause.

* Point defense modification A. In wartime, the Akishu can be converted into
a anti-fighter/anti-missile screening craft for larger vessels by installing
2 MFDs and 2 workstation/G-Tanks into a single bay. The primary laser
battery is then broken up into its three separate weapons, turning the
1x1/4-3-2-1 battery into 3x1/2-1-0-0 batteries. ( 6.2Mw, 51.2MCr ). 

* Point defense modification B. If point defense capability is desired, but
it is undesirable to break up the primary battery, a single heavy laser can
be installed in one bay and a MFD and workstation/G-Tank can be placed in
the other, providing a 1x1/2-1-0-0 battery to supplement the primary
battery. (10Mw, 28.03MCr).

* Additional Sandcasters. Each bay can have an additional sandcaster mounted
it. The setup includes sand dispenser, MFD, and workstation/G-Tank. (Each
sandcaster takes 4Mw, 26.4MCr ). 

* Nuclear damper. A USP factor 1 nuclear damper projector can be installed in
one bay, turning the Akishu into a anti-nuclear picket. This option requires
both bays - one bay holds the projector while the other carries a
workstation/G-Tank,MFD, and auxillary 25Mw power system with fuel. (0Mw,
30.15MCr ).

* Sensor platform. To turn the ship into a sensor picket, an additional
sensor suite can be installed in one of the bays. The modification includes
a densiometer, neutrino sensor, power plant, workstation/G-Tank, and
powerful computers, useful for long-range detection and intelligence
analysis. ( 9Mw, 10MCr ).

* Vehicle bays. The Akishu carries no small craft or vehicles - but any
vehicle up to five displacement tons can be placed in a bay (the lost space
is for bracing ).

* Additional quarters. Although the base design provides two extra
staterooms, it may be desirable to install additional quarters. Each bay can
have either three small staterooms or one extra-large stateroom. The
extra-large stateroom option can be used if the craft is going to be
transporting a noble ( displacing the ships troops with the noble's
retinue). Note that the bays have six fold down bunks in each - so that the
ships troops can be displaced into the bays (assuming they are empty)
freeing eight staterooms and still having four bunks. This can be useful in
rescue operations - by filling the bunks and forcing double occupancy
(difficult and crowded, but possible ) the Akishu can carry 58 people - the
crew of 21 (including troops) plus 37 other, more than enough to rescue the
entire complement of most trading vessels under 600tons. It should be noted
that no G-Tanks are provided for these additional quarters, so extra
personnel will be uncomfortable under high-G situations.

* Other options are certainly possible - as long as the system can be broken
into five ton units (the bays are not connected, so larger systems cannot be
installed. If more than 14Mw of power are required, additional power plants
or creative power management will be necessary. It should be noted that it
is not possible to use the modules to provide Jump 3 capability without
other, significant modifications to the ship's design. One authorized
modification dispenses with the bays, the ships troops, the extra two
staterooms, and one of the missile salvos to provide space for an additional
30 tons of fuel and a drive upgrade to jump 3. Note that this modification
is not modular - it can only be performed at class A starports and takes
several months in dry-dock to perform. Ships can be build to this
specification ( termed the Far type ) if desired.

Several features of the design have caused some controversy in military circles:

- - The design uses a high degree of automation, contrary to most standards of
military starship design. While it can be argued that the interlinked
systems are more vulnerable to battle damage, the presence of computer
assisted systems and low-maintenance drive units reduces the crew by three
(two engineers and a command crewmember). There is a significant savings in
space (fewer staterooms and workstations) and a slight increase in crew
efficiency by using the automated system. The designers felt that the
Akishu's superior defensive capabilities make the vulnerability of the
automated systems acceptable.

- - The starship has a strategic range of only two parsecs, unlike the three
parsec range available at the current technology level. An analysis of space
savings ( primarily due to fuel ) versus deployment strategies prompted the
design choice. As a great number of systems are reachable by jump two, and
several fleet elements ( such as the Military Frontier Cruiser ) only have
jump two capability, the choice seems acceptable. If ranges greater than two
parsecs are required, the Akishu's small size makes transport easy.

- - The power plant has fuel for six months only, rather than one year. This
was done to provide even more space, as it was felt that six months was more
than sufficient (patrol missions rarely last that long). If a full year
supply is needed, the power plant can draw upon jump fuel, or a disposable
tank can be installed in a mission bay.

- - The design was constructed using the SSDS protocol, rather than the more
economical QSDS stock-system protocol. This was done simply because certain
design features were unavailable in stock systems. The ship's armor,
acceleration bracing, stealth performance, sensor capabilities, and
automation systems were all deemed crucial to the design, and thus SSDS
protocols were used. While ships designed with the QSDS protocols will
certainly be more inexpensive, it is believed that no SSDS design with the
same displacement can out-perform the Akishu. If the the admiralty would
authorize SSDS protocol approved fuel purification plants with smaller
displacements, the Akishu design could be further refined. 

Overall, although several features of the design have drawn criticism, the
Akishu Irirkhan is a solid, advanced design that can meet any adversary. By
comparing the design to it's primary target, the corsair, an analysis shows
that the Akishu can out-maneuver the corsair and has superior long range
performance and defenses. By keeping the corsair at a distance (easy to do
with the Akishu's maneuverability), the Akishu can virtually guarantee victory.

An exterior image and deckplans of this design can be found on Andy's
Traveller Website, at document:

http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/andy/trav/commun/ships/akishu.htm



    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:50 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD ENTRIES (4 of 5)

Ship/Class Name & Type: "Tlaxcala" class Patrol Cruiser         (QSDS 1.5)
Ce Acatl's April THUDDD entry - please confirm receipt
Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

Tons:   500 Std (Slab S)        Volume:   7000 m3       Cost:   519.8 MCr
Crew:   24                      Hi/Md P:  2             Low P:  0
Cargo:  4 Std                   Controls: Fib/Bridge    TL:     12

Size:   8                              2 Jump (50 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                       4 Maneuver (T-plate, 20000 T/Thr)
Lsr trt 2 x (+4) 1/2-0-0-0           8.6 Power Plant (2000 + 2x75 MW)
Lsr bay 1 x (+4) 1/6-6-6-5           123 Fuel (S 200 R 5)
Msl trt 1                              0 Meson Screen
Msl brb 0                              2 Sandcasters (60 cans)
MFD     1 x (+4) (4 ctrld)             0 Nuclear Damper
Msn gn  0                     A10 P4 J10 Sensors (0 Stealth/Cloak)
PA gun  0                             20 Armor        16 Structure
                                      66 Length (m)

Crew    24 ( 1 elec 4 engr 2 mnvr 4 gun 2 scrn 2 craft 4 troops
             3 cmd 1 stwd 1 medic )

Facilities: 1 sickbay (2 beds)
            1 missile armory (3 Std)

Min Hgr 1 x 20 Std craft
        (or any combination totaling 20 Std)

***
Ce Acatl Corporation is very pleased to submit its entry for the third ISBA
THUDDD Competition:  the CP-5R "Tlaxcala" class Patrol Cruiser.  Tlaxcala
(tlahsh-CAH-lah) was a region of prestellar Terra noted for its proud
warrior tradition; we have attempted to live up to this reputation with our
vessel, a worthy addition to any navy or corporate security force.

A patrol cruiser must be capable of fulfilling a wide variety of operational
roles.  Chief among these are: 

* Commerce escort, customs, and anti-piracy duty
* Search and rescue
* Coordination with larger fleets in system defense and interdiction

The Tlaxcala performs admirably in each of these roles.  In battle, this
vessel is both deadly and tough.  Its primary armament is a devastating 1.3
gigawatt Thompson-Simmons bay laser, capable of crippling (or destroying
outright) most pirate vessels at multi-lightsecond ranges.  As short range
backup offensive and point-defense weaponry, two independent 30 megawatt T-S
turret lasers provide that added measure of confidence any ship captain
going into combat desires.  Twin Dohetti sandcasters and tough hull armor
let the Tlaxcala shrug off any fire from the bad guys.  Finally, an industry
standard missile turret designed expressly for this vessel, linked to an
ample missile armory, gives the Tlaxcala the added punch to deal with larger
targets...and a fully integrated master fire director makes sure those
punches land *hard*.  Finally, the standard crew complement includes four
ship's troops, to be employed as escorts during customs inspections, as
boarders, or as security aboard prize vessels.

None of this does any good if you can't find the enemy, of course -- and
that's why the Tlaxcala mounts an advanced active/passive sensor suite
(conforming to Imperial Navy standards) to help you flush even the
stealthiest quarry from cover.  This capability is an important asset in
search and rescue operations as well, as is the military-grade long-range
redundant commo suite -- critical for coordinating with larger fleets.  If a
ship is in the system...lying in wait for helpless freighters, or drifting
with a blown powerplant and a malfunctioning radio...you'll find it in time
with the Tlaxcala.

And get there in time, too.  With a CAC J2 drive, and 4G maneuver
capability, this ship has the legs to get you to the action fast enough to
make a difference.  Fuel scoops and an on-board purifier let you operate
away from civilization indefinitely, for those long
patrols.

The Tlaxcala comes equipped with a two-bed state-of-the-art sickbay, to
handle both routine medical situations while on prolonged duty and
combat-related injuries.  To stabilize more seriously traumatized patients
for transport to a hospital, a 4-person emergency low berth is also provided.

A minimal 20-Std hangar is provided, but no small craft are shipped with the
vessel.  We suggest a 20-Std fast pinnace, two 10-Std launches or fighters,
or four 5-Std fighters.  Our sales department will be happy to discuss the
options with you, and can provide assistance in arranging a coordinated
purchase plan that suits your needs.

With all three command crew in large staterooms, and the 21 other crew in
single-occupancy small staterooms, one large and one small stateroom remain
unoccupied.  These can be used by visiting personnel, as additional storage
space, or as briefing rooms.  More rooms can easily be freed up by imposing
double occupancy on some or all of the crew.

Finally, the price of the Tlaxcala is attractively low -- both in terms of
initial purchase price, and cost of ownership.  Ce Acatl Corporation is
committed to full compliance with Imperial and ISBA standards in ship design
and construction, and to the use of off-the-shelf standard components
wherever practical.  This standardization benefits our customers in two
ways: Low vessel unit cost, and easy acquisition of replacement parts.
Additionally, the craft can be operated and maintained by any
Imperially-certified crew without special training.

The Ce Acatl "Tlaxcala" -- fast, versatile, powerful, inexpensive.  Don't
launch your next patrol with anything less! 
***

Designer's Notes

The most unusual design element is the bay laser, a bit out of proportion on
this size of ship.  The whole vessel ends up looking like a mount for this
weapon; one might even think of it as a baby spinal mount.  My reasoning was
that for a patrol vessel, having an extremely powerful main weapon would
help end fights quickly, and at long range -- both highly useful.  Just the
deterrant value of a 1.3 GW laser on a vessel this size can't be discounted. 

The power and reach of the bay laser helps compensate for the 4G maneuver
rating.  Ideally, a patrol cruiser should be fast enough to chase down any
opponent -- but 6G designs left too little room for the other components I
wanted, and also would have involved going beyond "pure" QSDS.  In the end,
I decided that 4G plus the ability to hit targets at very long range gave
the same operational capability -- if your target tries to run away, you can
keep pounding him for quite a while as he flees at 2G max relative
separation acceleration. 

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Crimson class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
Submitted By:   Aurelian Industries, via Steven Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com

Tons: 600Std (AF Slab)   Volume: 8400 m3         Cost: 692.119125MCr
Crew: 27                 High/Med Pass: 0/8      Low: 0
Cargo: 1 Std             Controls: Mil(Fib)(B)   TL: 12

08 Size                             2 Jump Drive (120 Std/Pc Fuel)
2x 136Mj Lsr Batt (+4) 1/3-3-2-0    5 Maneuver (5G T-Plates,756MW)
1x 1336Mj Lsr Bay (+4) 1/6-6-6-5   10 Power Plant (1x 3000Mw)
1x MslBarb(+4) 4/5+               152 Std Fuel (Refine 5/hour, Scoops)
                                    4 Meson Screen
                                    3 Sandcasters (90)
                                    3 Nuclear Damper
                                  A16 P5 J16 Sensors
                                   20 Armour, 19 Structure

Crew Detail - 5 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 4 Gunnery,
              7 Screens, 4 Command, 2 Stewards, 1 Medical

Notes
The Crimson class is Aurelian Industries latest offering to the Imperial
Navy.  Following in the tradition of its "big brother," the DE-7
Gilaadin-class Destroyer Escort, the Crimson class continues the tradition
of partnership between Aurelian Industries and the Imperial Navy. 

Designed to provide the maximum in independence, the Crimson relies on
proven laser technology to give maximum firepower with a minimum of starport
support.  The powerful INSW-23XL Bay Laser serves as the "mailed fist" of
the Crimson, giving the vessel firepower equivalent to many smaller ships of
the line found in the hinterlands of space.  Supported by two synchronized
batteries of high-powered military lasers, the Crimson also boasts a missile
barbette and master fire director.  To further support the independent
operations concept of the Crimson, the ship is also equipped with a 5-ton
missile locker adjacent to the missile barbette. 

With a fully loaded barbette and missile locker, the Crimson can employ
missiles in numerous engagements before requiring resupply. 

But the Crimson is not just weapons; it is also a home to nearly 30 Imperial
Navy officers and men.  Because of this, Aurelian Industries has spared no
effort or expense toward providing an impressive defensive array for this
vessel.  The first element of this array is speed; the Crimson is rated at
5G; nearly as fast as the agile gunboats and fighters of the Imperial Navy.
In addition, the Crimson is sheathed in the latest Imperial Meson Screen
technology, and defended by three point-defense sandcasters and nuclear
dampers.  Should these defenses prove insifficient, the crew of the Crimson
is also defended by the ship's armor and enhanced structure, which allows
the vessel to maneuver at the peak of its powerful drive capacity and still
absorb punishment.

The independent operations concept that drives the weapons and defenses of
the Crimson also drive other aspects of the design.  The ship is built on an
airframe hull, and is fully capable of all intra- and extra- atmospheric
operations.  With the Crimson's fuel sccops and purifiers, the ship can fill
its tanks and fly almost immediately, and be ready to jump in just over a
day.  The ship also has a small cargo area available for carrying additional
rations or supplies, for longer-range voyages.

However, the Crimson does not have to work alone.  With its fully-integrated
bridge and advanced communications array, the ship can operate with any sort
of task force or fleet assembled by the Imperium or its allies.  The Crimson
is equipped with the finest Medium Military sensors, allowing it to guard
the flanks of a larger fleet, or detect foes while acting independently.
Operating in conjunction with a squadron of other Crimson-class vessels, the
ship can coordinate the search of an entire planetary system.  To aid in
this, four additional staterooms are provided to accomodate a squadron
commander and his staff, or a squad of Imperial Marines for boarding
actions.  With only minor modifications, the four spare rooms can also be
converted into larger rooms for transporting VIPs, or converted into
additional storage or recreational facilities for the crew on a long patrol.
The ship has 20 staterooms; 12 are used by the ship's enlisted crew in
double-capacity, and four are used by the ships officers in single-capacity.

Design Details
Spaceship Name: Crimson Class Patrol Cruiser
Tech Level: 12
Displacement: 600
                            Volume  SurfArea     Power     Price
600Std AF Slab A:20 6G      -562.4   -3068.0     103.4     31.8000
J2 Jump Drive and fuel       138.0      84.0       0.0     75.6000
5G T-Plates                   54.0     152.0     756.0    189.0000
Std Mil Avionics               3.4        .3       2.5     18.2000
Med Mil Sensors                4.5     262.0     201.2     92.9000
Advanced Commo                21.5     203.0      21.5      2.0000
Missile Barbette & MFD         8.3      22.1       3.3     25.7000
2x 136Mj Laser Battery        28.6      84.2     272.8     63.2000
TL12 Laser Bay                50.0      91.6    1336.4     98.1000
Missile Locker                 5.0       0.0       0.0      0.0000
3x Sandcasters                 9.0      30.0       3.0      2.4000
Meson Screen (PV4)             8.6      60.0       6.0     12.0000
3x Nuclear Dampers            16.0      60.0      45.0      6.0000
1x Sickbay                     8.0       0.0       0.8      5.0000
Fuel Purifier (5/hour)        12.0       0.0       2.5      0.1000
1x 3000MW Fusion & fuel      139.2       0.0   -3000.0    300.0000
17x Workstations               8.5       0.0       0.0      0.0255
Bridge & Bridge Workstations   6.0       0.0       0.0      0.0000
20x Small Staterooms          40.0       0.0       0.1      0.0000
TOTALS                       - 1.8   -2018.8    -245.5    922.8255
                                          After Discount  692.1191

DESIGNERS NOTES
Per the April THUDDD announcement, the following requirements had to be met:

1. Must be capeable of standing alone against groups of pirate/raiding vessels.
2. Must be able to work in conjunction with larger fleet actions. 
3. Must be capeable of wilderness refueling (Either directly or small craft)
4. Must be cost effective (not necessarily cheap or inexpensive).
5. Required Minimums/Maximums:
       Size:  600 tons maximum
       Jump:  2 minimum        Maneuver:  2 minimum
      Cargo:  Minimal          Carried Craft:  As Needed
    Offense:  Above Average          Defense:  Superior
       Crew:  Must have full medical facility.
              Must provide quarters for additional command personnell.
                   (For inspections, and transport)

Requirement 1 is met by the VERY powerful main gun (the 50-ton laser bay),
supported by two smaller laser batteries and a missile launcher.  The
missile launcher is even provided additional tonnage for more missiles. 

Requirement 2 is met by the ship's "standard" Jump 2 rating, and well above
standard 5G rating.  In addition, while the Crimson class has a weapon good
enough to attack small capital ships, it is equipped with very good sensors,
allowing it to be used as a picket ship on the fringes of the fleet,
supporting the larger Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts.  The ship also
carries the best commounications available for a ship of this size, allowing
it to remain in contact with the rest of the fleet.

Requirement 3 is met via the fuel scoops and fuel purifier.  The Crimson
class has an airframe hull, allowing it to refuel from a Gas Giant, or land
on a world with available water supplies for refueling there. 

Requirement 4 is very subjective, but I feel it is also met.  At just under
700 MCr, the Crimson class is not "cheap."  However, it is tasked with a
mission far more extensive than that of the "Classic" Traveller Patrol
Cruiser.  That vessel was equipped to handle customs/patrol work and light
anti-piracy duties.  It would never have been able to meet Requirement 1,
and its meeting Requirement 2 would be questionable (in my opinion).  In
reality, the craft described in these requirements is closer to a Destroyer
Escort from "Classic" Traveller.  For 700 MCr, the Imperium is getting a
vessel that can be used independently or in small groups for commerce/patrol
work, or even for heavy anti-piracy actions.  Most pirate vessels will skimp
on defenses in favor of space for loot/prisoners, or in favor of room for
boarding troops.  Their offensive weapons will be better, but it would be
doubtful that your "average" pirate would be carrying a 50-ton Laser Bay.
Those pirates large enough or successful enough to carry such armament would
be the targets of a naval task force with several Destroyers, at least, not
one or two Patrol Cruisers.  The Patrol Cruiser would need the firepower to
knock out a light opponent or discourage a medium opponent, and the defenses
and speed to survive and run away from a heavy opponent.  The Crimson class
can fulfill all of these needs, and by that token is Cost Effective.

Requirement 5 is also met.  The Crimson class is 600 tons, Jump 2, 5G, has
heavy firepower and good defenses, and has a sickbay.  There are additional
rooms for carried troops or inspectors, and since the ship has an Airframe
hull no carried craft are needed.  The minimal cargo capacity is enough to
provide additional rations for an extended patrol, and the missile locker
allows the ship to replenish the missles in its Missile Barbette when required.

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

transRift Engineering Corporation
Archangel Class Patrol Cruiser
J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>

USP
patrol curiser
Tons: 600 Std (AF Needle)  Volume: 8400 m^3             Cost: 613.4 (552.0)
MCr        
Crew: 27                   High/Med Pass: 5/0           Low: 0        
Cargo: 0 Std               Controls: Military (Bridge)  TL: 12        

                                     2 Jump Drive (60 Std/Pc Fuel)        
08 Size                              4 Maneuver (2G Thruster Plates,300MW;
2G High
                                               Efficiency
ContraGravity,79.992MW)
1x 251Mj Heavy Laser (+4) 1/6-5-3-2  2.5 Power Plant (3x250Mw)     
1x 251Mj Heavy Laser (+4) 1/6-5-3-2  127 Fuel (Scoop 127, Refine 33)        
1x 251Mj Heavy Laser (+4) 1/6-5-3-2  0 Meson Screen        
                                     8 Sandcasters (240)        
                                     0 Nuclear Damper        
                                     A10 P4 J10 Sensors  (-3 Masking)

                                     40 Armour 16 Structure        
 
Crew Detail:
3 Maintenance, 2 Eng - Power Plant, 7 Eng - Drives, 3 Electronics, 2
Maneuvering,
5 Gunnery - Other, 3 Command, 1 Steward, and 1 Medic.

The Archangel-class Patrol Cruiser continues trans-Rift Engineering
Corporation family of military starship designs based on it cost effective
600-Std needle airframe hull. The Archangel's armor (40) and internal
structure (4Gs) have been strengthened over previous designs to support a
wide range of independent and fleet support roles. Weaponry is based on
proven laser turret technology which provides a highly effective short range
destructive power combined with long range capabilities not available with
newer, less developed technologies. Especially noteworthy is tREC's
innovative incorporation of reconfigurable laser batteries allowing crews to
redistribute the fifteen laser turrets between the three MFDs to meet
individual mission requirements. In addition to the nominal configuration of
three equal batteries each with a USP of (+4) 1/6-5-3-2, other
configurations are possible providing increased striking power such as: 1x
(+4) 1/10-9-6-3 and 2x (+4) 1/2-1-0-0; up to 1x (+4) 1/10-9-7-4 with two
unused MFDs in reserve. The reconfiguring of the turret-MFD connections in
the central Interconnect Compartment [Engineering Shop] and associated
reprogramming of the MFDs can be accomplished within a few hours.

The Archangel is designed for a wide range of environments and rolls. The
Archangel is equipped with a full military electronics suite and
electro-magnetic masking. Its jump-2 and deep space 2-G capability allow
operations within standard fleet capabilities. The increased 4-G capability
near planetary bodies permits the Archangel to perform effectively both
against or in support of a system defense operations, or independently in an
interdiction or anti-piracy roll. The Archangel's sandcasters provide ample
protection against expected threats especially when the Archangel
capitalizes on its mid to long range combat advantages.

With the large sick bay (with a full time medic), emergency berths, and five
large staterooms for transient personnel, the Archangel is equipped for a
variety of long range, independent operations. While some cultures may
consider the bunks for the crew to be somewhat Spartan, these accommodations
have long been considered the norm by the majority of humanity. For example,
crews of underwater vehicles on the Solimani homeworld routinely undertook
extended voyages lasting several months with less spacious accommodations.  

tREC gratefully acknowledges the assistance and expertise of the renowned
naval architect, James Dempsey, as provided through his Java-based starship
design software, SSDSCalc 1.01.  
 
Notes
TL 12 Airframe Needle hull with 6 airlocks. Jump Fuel held allows for 2
parsecs travel. 2G Thruster Plates and 2G High Efficiency ContraGravity.
Stndrd military-level auto Dynamic Controls. Installed inertial compensators
will compensate for up to 3Gs accelleration (4Gs in a workstation) and 3Gs
(4Gs) evade. 2 Sick Bays. 1 Electronics Shop (MFD interconnect room). The
fuel scoops can gather 100% of the total fuel held each hour. The fuel
purification plant will refine 2800m^3 of fuel per 6 hours. 3 250MW TL12
Fission Plant power plants with 1 year's fuel. 7 Large Staterooms. 8 Small
Staterooms. 17 Bunks. 
  
Design Details
Spaceship Name: patrol curiser
Tech Level: 12
Displacement: 600
 
Component:                Mass     Volume    Surf Area  Power    Price
600t AF Needle A:120 4G  4465.2    -8084.4   -3373.2      0.006    5.00885
2 parsec Jump Drive       756        252        84        0       75.6
2G Thruster Plates        600        300        60      300       75
251Mj Heavy Laser (x5)    729.55     445.6      83       37.95    37.75
251Mj Heavy Laser (x5)    729.55     445.6      83       37.95    37.75
251Mj Heavy Laser (x5)    729.55     445.6      83       37.95    37.75
TL 12 Sandcaster Trt (x4) 231.0      193.6      43        7.1     28.8
TL 12 Sandcaster Trt (x4) 231.0      193.6      43        7.1     28.8
Std auto Dynamic Cntrls     0.882      8.82      0        0.63     0.945
TL 12 Military             55.4       37.9     288      106.8     74.91
Standard Life Sup          67.2       67.2       0        1.68     4.2
Artificial Gravity        168         84         0       42        4.2
Large Stateroom (x7)       28        392         0        0.007    0.7
Small Stateroom (x8)       16        224         0        0.004    0.32
Bunk (x17)                  8.5      238         0        0        0.085
Emer Lwr Brth (x2)          4         56         0        0.004    0.2
Sick Bay (x2)             100        224         0        1.6     10
Electronics Shop           40         84         0        0.6      1
Electro-Magnetic Masking   84        168        84        8.4     42
Fuel Scoops (x100)          0          0       846.3      0        0.0634725
Fuel Purif Plant (x2800) 2240       1120         0       16.8      0.448
2G High Eff CG            159.996    240       240       79.992   24
250MW TL12 Fisn Plt(x3)  1500        375         0     -750       75
Fuel                      124       1742         0        0        0
Total                   18961.6       -6.78  -1435.9    -63.43   613.36
 
Num Low psngrs: 0
Num Middle psngrs: 0
Num High psngrs: 5
 
Num Maintenance crew: 3
Num Eng - Power Plant crew: 2
Num Eng - Drives crew: 7
Num Electronics crew: 3
Num Maneuvering crew: 2
Num Gunnery - Other crew: 5
Num Command crew: 3
Num Stewards crew: 1
Num Medical crew: 1
Total crew: 27


    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:12:59 +0100 (BST)
From: David John Yeardly <djy@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1203

On the subject of space 1899 ect ( and yes I know this is off topic)

Sounds like you have been watching too much BBC1

There was a series of comidies called "Blackadder Goes forth" From
Blackadder 1 to ? (Time wise from Queen Elizibeth the 1st to WW1)

Edmund Blackadder was played by Rowen Atkinson
Baldrick was played by Tony Robinson

Various other well Known comic actorse stared in it but I cant remember
off hand who ( I am reading this at work and my copies are at home)

I beleve all the episodes are out on video curtisey of Aunti.

David
..--- -...- .- -.. ..--- ---.. .-.-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1207
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1208



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

APRIL THUDDD BALLOT
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
Re: Norris Sexual Orientation
Re: 1889
Re: Tech Talk
Prostitution: (was: Re: Norris)
[Official Question] Re: IISS Fast Rescue Boat
Re: 1889
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
Re: Antimatter containment
Re: Low Tech Space Fighters
Re: Why we discuss fighters
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Conservation
What is science?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:18:27 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT

OK, here is the Ballot.

But first, a few notes about the designs.

The average hull size was just over 500 Std DT.
The Average Maneuver was juat over 4G.
The average price was just over 550 MCr.

On the following Ballot, rate each ship on the criteria listed, with a 1
thru 10 (1-Oh yeah!! Most awesome!/10-Stupid idea!)  I will add up all the
numbers and the lowest wins.  I am accepting votes until April 27th then I
will tally them and Announce the winner. :)


**************************************************
* OFFICIAL THUDDD BALLOT    APRIL
**************************************************
*
* Kommodo, Monitor Class Class Patrol Cruiser  (SSDS)
* Designed by: Long Yards, John Long <jlong@wilmington.net>	
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser (SSDS)
* Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* Surefire Class Patrol Cruiser						
* Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Naval Architects, Inc., Sylea.
* Martin F C Pickett <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* X-TEK PC-1 "Drakken" Class Patrol Cruiser
* (QSDS1.5, SSDS/FF&S for Hull and Masking)
* Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* Fiadhaine Enterprises Presents:
* Geanna Class  Patrol Cruiser ( SSDS )
*	Designed by: Brian A. Howard <bruadh@southwest.net>
*					
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
* 
* Generica Starships Model 45212 - Patrol Cruiser (QSDS)
* Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* The Torden class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS and FF&S for hull design) 
* Bertling Construction Company
* Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* New Victoria Guardian-class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
* Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
* 
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* Ship/Class Name & Type: "Tlaxcala" class Patrol Cruiser
* Ce Acatl's April THUDDD entry - please confirm receipt
* Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* Crimson class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
* Submitted By:   Aurelian Industries, via
* Steven Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* transRift Engineering Corporation
* Archangel Class Patrol Cruiser
* J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* Erlir Class Patrol Cruiser (Type PC) 
* (QSDS 1.5, The Big Hull List & SSDS)
* Chris Cox <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* FSY Bludgeon-class Patrol Cruiser (SSDS Beta .pdf)
* Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************
*
* GSbAG 'Montcalm' Patrol Crusier (SSDS)
* Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
**************************************************

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:50:44 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

I think you ALL are on the wrong track, arguing about whether Norris was
gay or merely devoted to his people or whatever.  I'm disappointed that no
one seems to have thought this through carefully.

The *obvious* answer is that "he" is actually a female-to-male
crossdresser.  Think about it.  This is conclusively proved by the fact
that his cloned heir is (also) a woman -- there was no Y sex chromosome
present in the original.  I rest my case.

<tongue half-removed from cheek>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:48:59 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Norris Sexual Orientation

At 04:43 PM 4/14/97 -0700, John wrote:

>Damn... I feel like a perv.

Funny, that's what I said last year during the San Francisco
Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender Pride Parade as I marched with Queer
Deadheads as one of the few straight people in the march!

Never fails though.. eight guys hit on me....


>"Disco still sucks!!!"

Except for the Village People who are too much fun.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:48:44 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 1889

At 08:56 PM 4/15/97 -0400, Loren wrote:


>Sometime, I must tell you of my Space: 1889 character, Edmund Blackadder, aka
>"the Marshal Ney of Crime" and his henchman Baldric, aka "the Chester Alan
>Arthur of Crime" 

Brings to mind Quartermaster Sergeant-Major Alexander Smithers, Queen's
Dragoons, who was the epitome of an iron spined British NCO.  The man didn't
speak, he barked.  He trembled in outrage at the mere presence of forgien
troops.  And his uniform was always immaculate.

QSM Smithers was designed as the manservant to Major Pith-Downry, a
completely useless upper-class twit.  Together, we explored Her Majesty's
possessions, always ending up in one dnagerous situation after another.

I only played him for a short time, but he remains one of my all time favor
ite PCs.

Hmmm... Milieu:1889, anyone?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:38:17 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Tech Talk

>> So, tell us how we pull off reactionless STL...and don't blow
>> Conservation^3?
>
>First you take a chunk of negative mass matter (negamatter). Since it
>has negative mass, pushing on it makes it move closer, pulling on it
>makes it move away. This is *not* antimatter.

[rest of solution deleted]

Am I correct in assuming that negametter is what is sometimes called 
exotic matter, i.e. matter with negative energy? (E=mc^2 would imply 
so...)

If so, negamatter can also be used to create a real, 
honest-to-goodness FTL drive -- it's used to warp spacetime such that 
the ship travels locally STL, but FTL w.r.t. the rest of the 
universe.

Stepping back into Traveller for a moment, given that FTL drives 
don't work in that manner, I don't think we can allow thruster 
technology based on it either.

My thrusters operate on a principle related to the interaction of 
real 4-space and the jump spaces.  High realspace velocity 
strengthens the interaction.  (I'm sure it ought to he high 
acceleration or high rate of energy fluctuation, preferably the 
latter, but I haven't thought it through yet.)

Does that mean you can use jump technology to attain near-c 
velocities? Oh, yes, indeed.  But before you rush out and fit 
modified jump drives to small rocks, I ought to point out that for 
quantum mechanical reasons, there's an infinitesimal chance of 
actually hitting anything from 100 diameters.

Conservation of canon and conservation of playability are more or 
less obeyed.

Nick

Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:48:55 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Prostitution: (was: Re: Norris)

At 02:49 PM 4/14/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:

>Another question: What about prostitution in Traveller. The generic
>startown seems full of brothels etc but do the other races also pay for
>sexual services? Also do Vargr have specific periods when they are in heat
>or are they like humans more or less year round fertile and willing?

Well, since hooking is the oldest form of capitalism (I got what you want,
you got what I want, let's trade!), I think that it will outlive the 4th
Imperium.

As for acceptance, that depends on the culture.  Law can't always be a
guide, as some states that would seem to be quite restrictive by Traveller
standards have legalized prostitution. (Germany comes to mind.. fairly
difficult to own a firearm, very bureaucratic, but oh, the women..) On
lower-law worlds, the girls might live in slavery, possibly kidnapped, or
even sold by destitute parents.  High tech worlds might do better with "VR"
type fantasy suites that you custom build (wanna bang Empress Marava on her
Flag Bridge?  50Cr!)

Aliens would handle things differently.. if the Vargr do have mating
seasons, odds are they won't be interested unless around a female in heat.
The female herself would probably lose all interest during her down time,
although she would still be functional.  There is probably a sub-type of
Vargr folk tale about the cunning female who fools her owner into believing
he is sterile by faking heat, and then not getting pregnant!

The Aslan...  hmmm.. I don't know, the typical Aslan male has just always
seemed so.. clueless.  I imagine the females were the ones with the club
upsides the head during the Aslan Paleloithic.  The Droyne make sex
mechanical, almost a ritual.  

A K'Kree brothel, now *there's* a thought.  Given K'Kree thought patterns,
and the cultural standard of acceptance and complacancy, I shouldn't be
suprised if their sex wasn't a bit k'kinky.

Sorry.

Back to the point.. you'll probably find working girls (and boys) at most
every port.  The quality, and range of services will vary wildly.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:25:22 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: [Official Question] Re: IISS Fast Rescue Boat

Mark Clark wrote:
> 
>   As part of the prep for my Beltwatch game, I decided to see just how
> fast a design I could come up with to get help out there when needed.
> Here's a first pass:
> 
> Rescue Boat
> TL: 12
> Size: 10 Ton Std (Steamlined Cylinder)
> Acceleration: 11.1 G (empty), 10 G (9 metric tons cargo)
> Armor: 3 all around
> Power: 24 Mw (Fusion +), 100 hours fuel
> Crew: 2 (grav comp, 10 G)
> Cargo Space: 7.1 Ton Std
> Com: Continental range, 0.1 Mw
> Sensor: Continental range radar, 0.1 Mw
> Standard Life Support, 1750m<3>

I like your design, it's given me some ideas for the Rescue boat I am
designing. But is 3 armour all the way around enough for interplanetary
travel?

Back in Feb. wildstar posted an armour conversion table which listed
QSDS Armour value 0 as being equivalent to a T4 Armour value of 13.

CSC stated that an armour of 3 is required for the front and 2 for other
sides in order to get a sub-orbital "certification".

Question: Is 13 the minimum armour required for inteplanetary travel
when using the VDS? If not (i'm guessing it is, or perhaps rounded to
10) then what is the minimum?

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1889

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Sometime, I must tell you of my Space: 1889 character, Edmund Blackadder, aka
> "the Marshal Ney of Crime" and his henchman Baldric, aka "the Chester Alan
> Arthur of Crime" 
> 


SNORK!!! Dagn Nab Id! dere goes the coffee through by dose
agaid!!!

For all those who are interested there is a really nice Blackadder site on
the web:

http://www.louisville.edu/~atjewe01/blackadder.html

closely followed by his Red Dwarf page:

http://www.louisville.edu/~atjewe01/reddwarf.html

Complete scripts and more! (my mac at home starts up in the morning with
the complete Red Dwarf end theme...)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:09:39 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:40 -0800, Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>>[Stuff about Norris being gay.  I'll just comment that I agree that
>> it is consistent with his being gay, but that I don't agree his
>> being gay is the only clear answer...]
>
>Yes its not the _only_ clear answer but it is the most clear answer.

I guess I would drop out "the most" and replace it with "a".   <shrug>

>> You can only say that there seems to be a higher chance
>> that she will be gay, and even then you might only be
>> raising it from a 2% chance to a 5% chance.

>The actual chance that someone is gay is closer to 3-4 % and there
>chance of being bisexual is also about 3-4%.

Well, this number is in dispute.  The latest, most objective
survey I saw was down arond 2% but the number might be up
around 4 or 5%.

[Regarding twins of gay people.]
>Some of these twins were reared apart and they still
>had a higher chance of being gay (40% + IIRC).

This is consistent.  The odds might be 40% that a clone would
be gay.  They might be significantly less (twin studies are
useful but have limitiations).  There just really isn't enough
known to say for sure.

>This is a lot better chance than you suggest & what little canonical
>evidence we have about Seldrian suggests that she was also
>gay.

My point was to show how low the chance could be (to point out
at you were jumping to conclusions about the clone).  The odds
might 40%.  They also might be 5%.  The fact that the clone is
female also throws a curve ball in all this.  (ie it has _some_
difference in its genetic makeup).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:24:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Antimatter containment

> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:55:59 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> Subject: Antimatter containment
> 
> Just an idea...could we store anti-H2 molecules in a bucky-ball cage?  The
> repulsion should keep the AM centered inside the carbon shell until it's
> broken by heat or shock.  Depending on what level of sensitivity we come up
> with, this could be a fairly safe method of storing and transporting
> AM..."Pump 10 gallons of AM-BB's into my tank, I've got a run to Mars
> tomorrow." ;->

Unfortunately, this probably won't work.  Positrons in the AM will
*attract* electrons in the BB shell, and being closer to one another this
attraction will tend to be greater than the mutual repulsion of
positrons/protons and electrons/antiprotons.  Think Van der Waals forces,
but in reverse, so to speak.  VdW forces create a potential minimum at
some atomic separation, which creates an effective weak 'bond' between two
atoms, but holds them at a slight seperation.  Anti-VdW would then be a
shallow potential *maximum*, easy to slide over, and once inside the
maximum separation the two atoms would slide into contact with one
another, *boom*.  Even at relatively low temperatures, thermal vibrations
would be easily enough to get over this energy curb.

Even if this analysis is wrong for some reason, AM-BBs would be like
super-nitroglycerin in terms of handling.  Any shock strong enough to
break static confinement on even *one* BB would create a tiny M/AM
explosion in that BB, which would create enough shock to set off all the
surrounding BBs, and so on until the whole tank goes up.  Not the sort of
stuff I want on *my* ship!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:45:23 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Low Tech Space Fighters

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) writes:
>How'd you like to jump into a system and discover that it was WWII,
>only with the Germans, Japanese *and* the US using nukes, and aerospace
>fighters and bombers...
>Or the cold war in space. Or...
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

  S.M. Sterling touched on this with the 3rd book in his Draka series, 
"The Stone Dogs."  In system cold war between the two major powers 
that came out of a different WWII.

  That book has a good example of non-grav tech, in system space combat.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:40:40 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Why we discuss fighters

>> People said the dreadnaught battleship was obsolete in 1941. They were
right.
>> (In all these cases, obsolete doesn't mean "totally useless", but "mostly
>> irrelevant to the main battle".)
>You are arguing a point he didn't make. For example, battleships turn
>out to be a nice way to deliver heavy bombarment to small countries
>with seacoasts. And the armor is even a plus. So is the fact that
>they've fitted cruise missile launchers on them...

  Actually given the US Navy's new mission of projecting force inland, the
Battleship is an excellent platform.  It's cheaper to fire the 16" guns
than it is to fire an equivalent number of missles.  The heavy armor on a
Battleship will shrug off anti-ship missles that would cripple a newer
missle boat.
The Battleship also has the room to carry a large number of longer ranged
cruise missles.

>Heck, even *cavalry* is useful. For guerillas.
   Do you mean "horse cavalry" here?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:56:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> 
> This is why wireless keyboards didn't catch on. In fact, IBM had to
> *retrofit* the PCjr with a wired keyboard because of what happened to
> them in classrooms. One of the bigger goofs Big Blue ever made.


Well, not quite the only reason. The PC-jr. wireless keyboard failed for a
number of reasons, the biggest of which was it wasn't an IBM standard
keyboard! (IBM was famous for screwing THAT one up, though!) The other
reason was that it was a toy-like chiclet awful thing that was impossible
to type on. The biggest problem was that IBM was scared of cannibalizing
their 'business' computer sales by introducing an as-powerful 'home'
computer, so the dumbed down the PC-jr. a LOT, making it appear like a
worthless toy, and the sales of the thing played that out.

	A wireless keyboard is a decent idea that has failed consistently
for lack of decent implementations, plus the fact that most people don't
have a problem with a cord attaching to their computer. Now that most PC
manufacturers have FINALLY gotten away from the 'anaconda coils o'death'
keyboard cable that will pull a computer toward you if stretched too far
and to simple straight cables that are %@$@#! LONG enough, the hassle of a
keyboard cable is much lessened.

	And on the voice control front, all I can think of is John
Dvorak's comment on voice controlled PC's...whatta opprtunity for a
disgruntled worker to go postal, running through the cubicles screaming
"DELETE YES DELETE YES DELETE YES"

Bruce Johnson 
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:31:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Conservation

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:44:19 -0700
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

> The problem with the variation you (and others) suggested, in which 
> acceleration goes down as velocity increases (to maintain
> mv dv/dt = P) is that it only conserves energy in one reference frame.
> Transform to a different frame - for example, one at rest initially with 
> respect to the (moving) starship before it begins accelerating again - and
> you're no longer conserving energy. I suppose you could just toss away
> frame invariance and have a privledged frame that thruster plates conserve
> energy with respect to...although I have a lingering feeling that that doesn't
> work either.

   Very true.  It /is/ possible to design a thruster plate which conserves
   both energy and momentum in all reference frames, but they require
   about 1000 times the power input of the canonical thruster plates.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:30:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: What is science?

   Hi.

>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:30:50 -0600
>From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
>Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

>>How was Aristotle, "not a scientists" for all intents and purposes?
>>Because the definition didnt exist then?  I disagree whole heartedly.
>>Aristotelian science was around for almost 2500 years until the time of
>>galileo and his contemporaries and academic descendents.

>>He followed the Empirical method, so his a scientist.

> No Way. Aristotle was a philosopher. He most certainly did *not* follow 
> the empirical method.

   Aristotle's theories were scientific insofar as they followed the
   empirical method; they were speculative insofar as they did not. 
   Due to the technical limitations of his day, Aristotle must have
   found experimentalism a difficult discipline; he seems to have
   indulged in speculation rather more often than respectable scientists
   do today.  His most important contributions come from the inspiration
   he gave to proto-scientists like Albert the Great, Roger Bacon, and
   William of Occam, who rediscovered him after the dark ages.  They
   were all great promoters of experiment and observation, and they
   attributed to Aristotle a similar viewpoint.  In some sense,
   Aristotle can be seen as one of the founders of modern science.

>>How about (his name escapes
>>me) <blank>  just after galileo and copernicous, he said that the sun goes
>>around the earth, but everything else goes around the sun.  That was just
>>plain wrong.

>It also wasn't science. It was theology. That person couldn't believe 
>that the Earth *wasn't* the centre of the universe, so came up with a 
>complicated model to account for the motions of the sun and planets that 
>kept the Earth at the centre. 

   It was science insofar as it accurately predicted the motion of
   planets and the times for eclipses.  You see, none of the early
   heliocentric theories predicted planetary motions as accurately as
   the established geocentric theories.  The big advantage of early
   heliocentric theories was that they did a better job of predicting
   eclipses.  They also predicted the parallax motion of stars.  The
   fact that we couldn't see any such parallax motion was a big blow to
   heliocentrism.

   Interestingly enough, many of the early heliocentric theories of the
   middle ages were at least partly inspired by dualistic theology.  The
   earth, you see, was too vile and corrupt and sinful to be the center
   of the universe.  Only the sun was pure and noble enough for that
   honor.  

   The fact that bizarre sun-worshipping cults believed in heliocentrism
   may have done more to hurt the theory than the lack of apparant
   parallax motion.  Any scientist who proposed heliocentrism had his
   reputation associated with these strange (and occasionally violent)
   cults.  (Just imagine how embarrasing it would be to discover a
   flying saucer behind comet Hale-Bopp!  If you went forward with your
   discovery, you might get branded as a crackpot follower of "Doh" and
   his gang.  Unless you got some /really/ solid evidence, you'd
   probably be tempted to just say nothing and get on with securing your
   tenure! 8^)

>You seem to see science in terms of black and white. It is either "right" 
>or it turns out to be "wrong". It is impossible to model reality exacty. 
>It is impossible to prove a model of reality to be "right".

   Very true.  Which is why early geocentrism could be scientific, even
   though it turned out to be completely wrong.

   What has this got to do with Traveller?  Not much, I admit.  But
   there will be cases in future history of science being impeded by
   interference from technical and economic limitations and by
   political considerations.  There will also be cases where it turns out
   that 1990's science was completely wrong in its interpretations, if
   somewhat right in its predictions.  There's a lot of potential for
   fun here!

   -Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1208
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1209



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer technology at TL12-15
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?
April THUDDD; whoops....
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: 1889
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1208
Re: Destroyer+Cruiser+BattleShip+DreadNaught(longish)
Re: The Imperial Yacht
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: IISS Rast Rescue Boat
Re: Norris Preferences
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Racism,  Sexism and the Third Imperium
Re: Conservation
Re: [T97#1198] Computer by the Meter
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
High Guard query

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:52:37 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15

>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:04:19 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>>>Thruster plates are a different matter. They are hard to justify, and
>>>open up *way* too many cans of worms. While physics does have a few
>>>loopholes that would allow something *like* thrusters, they'd have to
>>>work rather differently. 
>>
>> I had not realized just how much of a problem they were.  I had assumed
>> that things would work alright if you assumed that they were a near perfect
>> converter of electrical to kinetic energy.  (Yes, there are some serious
>> entropy problems.  I have not decided yet how much this bothers me.) 
>
>If you do *that*, without having them push on something, then you lose
>conservation of momentum. Ok, we'll grant that. You also get a
>*different* problem than the "pushes on the sun" case.

Yes, I had decided to accept that.  I figured breaking energy conservation
would lead to bad effects that players would notice sooner than breaking
momentum conservation.

>The acceleration is a force. And the force makes the ship move.
>Therefore, we have the standard equation W=fd (work equals force times
>distance).

[this works, but 1/2mv^2 is also a fine definition of energy in an inertial
non relativistic frame.]

>> Unfortunately for our heroes, to go to 100 diameters from earth at 1g takes
>> about a day and a half (1.6e5 s -> 1.5 days), and leaves the vessel moving
>> at 1.6e6 m/s.  The energy in the ship is roughly 1.3e12j/kg, and so would
>> have needed a power input of roughly 8MW/kg over the intervening day and a
>> half.
>
>100 diameters is 100*8000 km = 8e5 km = 8e8 m.

I think we have a data disagreement.  My pocket ref says the earth is 3958
miles in radius = 7916 miles in diameter = 12740 km, so 100 diameters is
1274000 km = 1.3e6km = 1.3e9m.

My calculation above was off by a factor of ten, though - you would end up
a whole heck of a lot farther out than 100 diameters.  1.2e11m is a long
way - the sun is only what, 1.5e11 m away.

>   D=.5AT^2
- ->
>T=12649 sec = 211 minutes = 3.5 hr. 
>And the end velocity is 126,491 m/s. Call it 1.3e5. We get 8e9 j/kg
>for 8 GW/kg.

1.3e9=5t^2 => t = 16124 s = 268 min = 4.5 hr.
v = at = 1.6e5 m/s, so E = 1.3e10 j/kg

I disagree on the power needed, though.

1.3e10j/1.6e4s => 8e5j/kg = 0.8MW/kg.  This is closer to traveller canon
than my original estimate, but still very high.

Why is there a four order of magnitude difference in the energy we get?
One seems to come from our difference in the distance we are going, but I
think the rest is coming from an error in one of our calculations.  After
the blooper I made that started this, I am not sanguine about whose it is.
 
>Now consider the "true reactionless" drive I mention above.

It might be better to call it a constant force drive.  This is certainly
what current canon seems to want, and differentiates it from one that is in
some way energy limited, and thus not constant thrust.

> For 1 g,
>the force is 10 newtons per kg. Over a distance of 8e8 meters that
>gives a total energy budget of 8e9 Gj per kg for the trip. But it needs
>1.3e6 per kg during the last second!

For 1.3e9m at 10N, I get 1.3e10 j expended per kg.  This matches your
number, save for the G prefix.  Typo?

I am glad that we produced similar results from similar starting points.
Traveller drives need to be sucking down a whole lot more power, or else we
just assume they avoid energy conservation as well.

>> This is not good, and I am not sure just how to react.
>
>My reaction is that I need to try to get my writing ability improved to
>the point where I can publish a story using "real" reactionless drives.
>Probably with the stereotypical "backyard inmventor" who doesn't listen
>to the experts. So he builds them. And then finds out how *badly* they
>work.

Kind of like the story about the chap who discovered hyperspace, but found
it had a lightspeed limit lower than here.

[CG produces thrust]
>> I had assumed they altered the gravitational potential, causing the ship to
>> just fall to where it was wanted.
>
>Gravitational *potential* is the amount of energy it takes to escape
>from the field. It depends on *mass* and how far away it is.

Yep.  Gravitational potential energy is the energy it takes to remove a
test particle to infinity, and is equal to -GMm/r.  The minus sign vanishes
in most calculations, as you are subtracting the current potential from the
zero point at infinity.

You can get the force by differentiating the potential, and conversely, get
the potential by integrating the force.

>It's equal to escape velocity.

In the terminology I was taught too many years ago, they are not equal,
just closely related.  Escape velocity is the velocity such that kinetic
energy equals the potential.  Since you gave the correct escape velocity
below, I am sure you know this, but I wanted to get the terms straight.

0.5mv^2 = deltaE = Pinfinity-Phere = 0 - (-GmM/r) -> 0.5mv^2 = GMm/r
v^2 = 2GM/r

v = sqrt(2GM/r)

>Gravitational *force* is different. You can get get the same *force* at
>wildly differing potentials. The gravity at Saturn's cloudtops is about
>1 g. But the gravitational *potential* is huge. 

Yep.

>So:
>	Potential    = sqrt(2GM/r)    (actually escape velocity)
>	Acceleration = GM/r^2

Or, as I would have said it with the terminology I was taught:

Escape velocity = sqrt(2GM/r)
Potential = -GMm/r
Force = GMm/r^2  (The same thing you got, but with the test mass still in.
F=ma produces your acceleratiom above.)

- -----

Just for future reference, I decide to see what higher acceleration gave us:

Assume 2G instead

1.3e9=10t^2 => t = 11401 s = 190 min = 3.1 hr.
v = at = 2.3e5 m/s, so E = 2.6e10 j/kg
2.6e10j/1.1e4s => 2.3e6j/kg = 2.3MW/kg.

The general case:

D=5gt^2, where g is the number of gees, thus t=sqr(D/5g).

v=5gt = 5 g sqr(D/5g) = sqr(5 g D),

thus E = 0.5mv^2 = 0.5 m 5 g D = 2.5 m g D

And so P = E/t = 2.5 m g D / sqr(D / 5 g) = 2.5 sqr(5) m g^1.5 sqr(D) 

In other words, however broken the system is at low accelerations, it gets
worse at high ones.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:02:30 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:26:39 -0700, you wrote:

> James Lindsay wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:05:23 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
> 
> > Q-ships where operated by the Allied governments during WWII to
> > counter enemy submarine attacks.  There would be little purpose of a
> > group of independent PCs to possess such a ship-- other than for
> > piracy.
> 
> Umm, Q-ships actually operated against enemy surface raiders ... but, yes, there is 
> little reason for a group of PCs to own one except piracy (and Germany used Q-ships for 
> commerce raiding eg the Kormoran).

They were also useful against enemy submarines baited into surfacing
so that they can engage the convoy with their deck guns.

> > All is not lost, however.  Perhaps a special branch of the Navy could
> > *lone* Q-ships to retired characters, much like the Scouts lone out
> > ships.  The Q-ship would probably function much like a subsidized
> > merchant, plying a specific route for a fixed period each year and
> > exchanging a sizable profit share for its monthly payments.  It could
> > still make part of its payments through trading, although most of its
> > payments would be paid by the company whose trade routes you are
> > protecting.  For those few weeks that you are "on vacation", you are
> > expected to defend other shipping (whom your bosses will contact
> > regarding payment for any services rendered during that time).
> 
> Why ? Wouldnt it be simpler just to have the regular Navy staff the ship ? This way 
> there is less risk of the crew deciding to join the wolves, rather than guard against 
> them.

It was just an idea, and one that obviously needs more work.  I was
just hypothesizing as to how a PC could acquire a MCr170+ ship through
mustering out.  But on a similar scale, WHY would the scout service
loan out ships to retired scouts when they could be using them
themselves?  I believe this was done so that groups of PCs could have
an alternative to possessing a merchant trader with 30 years of
payments still to be made (you gotta get those PCs from one system to
another, and booking passage on another ship isn't everyone's idea of
gaming in an SF universe :)

> And as for arming a merchant ship, why not get a reasonably-well armed merchant ship 
> with a bit of spare power, and put a crack naval crew and dirty great big naval battle 
> computer in it ... being a High Guard holdout, I think you should be able to cram a Mod 
> 7 computer into, say, a 1000t freighter, as long as you avoided any energy-using 
> weapons, and the nuclear warheads in the missiles (we *are* the Navy, after all) will 
> shock the average pirate immensely ...

You are talking in High Guard terms.  Things have changed a bit since
then :)

While your example is perfectly valid, it doesn't fall into the class
of ship that could be received during mustering out (which is what the
original poster wanted-- to give his PCs the chance of acquiring a
Q-Ship).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:21:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?

Responding to the new delightful thread on Space 1889:

I loved that game, I still have it.  Play it occasionaly.  I love the 
'inventions' its amazing what one can do with TL-4.  Nicholai Tesla eat your 
heart out!

Here's a little interesing thing to thow into that setting, how about the 
same universe, 50 years in the future?  Called Space:1939?  Its a cross 
between Space:1889 and Indiana Jones, complete with Space Natzis to shoot 
at!  Imagine being dogged down by Space U-Boats,  Trying to keep Hitler from 
gaining wierd ancient alien technologies.  You thought the Arc of the 
Covenant was rough?  Wait till you've seen the Ancient Martian Pyramid 
Keepers Rod (which by the way is a FGMP-15!).

Heh, heh....then theres that silly Einstien equation....nuclear power 
anyone?

Thoughts? Comments?...(The Commander gets on his fire resistant 
suit)...uh..Flames?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:35:42 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: April THUDDD; whoops....

	It would seem that Hengabar is going to have to confiscate the
design bureau's pogo sticks again..: my THUDDD design is 100td over the
max, is incapable of wilderness refuelling, and does not provide medical
facilities for the crew.  Given that I neglected to read the design
requirements before designing it, I'm amazed that it actually meets some of
them (the ones about combat effectiveness and fleet ops).  I plead extreme
hurriedness; I'm in exams, and had a very brief timeframe in which to bash
it out.  I originally hadn't even planned on doing a submission... I just
seized the opportunity after I finished a paper.

	So, apologies, and everyone please note these shortcomings when
judging it.

	In passing, I'm really pleased by the way the THUDDD concept seems
to be holding up; three rounds in and we're still getting lots of
submissions; like 14 this time around.  I'm almost beginning to think that
they deserve publication; maybe the winners from each competition could be
assembled into a JTAS article or something?


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:55:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

Quoth Douglas N Sinclair:
> Your assertion that there is a greater infinity of points in a 3D space
> than a 2D space is incorrect.  The number of points in a line is the
> same as the number of points in a plane is the same as the number of
> points in a solid is the same as the number of irrational numbers.

Actually, mind-bendingly enough, there _are_ different sizes of
infinities.  The infinity of points existing between, say, 1 and 2,
is smaller than the infinity of points existing between, for example,
4 and 6.  No, I don't understand it completely.  Ask my dad the
doctorate-holder....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:10:43 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: 1889

At 08:56 PM 4/15/97 -0400, Loren wrote:


>Sometime, I must tell you of my Space: 1889 character, Edmund Blackadder, aka
>"the Marshal Ney of Crime" and his henchman Baldric, aka "the Chester Alan
>Arthur of Crime" 

Mine (NPC) was Arthur "Boots" Wellsley, the Wellington of Crime. 
Great minds think alike.

(Boy, that was a wonderful game...who ended up with the rights, anyway?)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:13:22 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1208

>   Very true.  It /is/ possible to design a thruster plate which conserves
>   both energy and momentum in all reference frames, but they require
>   about 1000 times the power input of the canonical thruster plates.

Could you give me a clue as to how? I'm baffled as to how that might work
(except for photon drives, of course...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:46:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Destroyer+Cruiser+BattleShip+DreadNaught(longish)

In a message dated 97-04-15 02:02:01 EDT, Solomani write:

<< In traveller, or failing that, in teh real world,  what distingushs a
 destroyer from a cruiser, is it just the roll it was built for or the
 tonnage or both?  If its tonnage what are the ranges for each class?
 Thanks! >>

Historically, ship designation resulted from the type of mission invoved.
 The modern cruiser was once the "frigate" designed for independent
operations on the high seas.  It possessed exceptional endurance combined
with sufficient firepower to defeat most opponents, or barring that, speed
with which to outrun them.  This required a large, streamlined hull with
considerable displacement(6.500dt - 15,000dt).  

The destroyer, as we now know it, was designed to defeat the ever-popular
torpedo boat that was developed prior to WWI.  The United Kingdom decided
that it required a FAST, well equipped escort vessel that would be able to
interdict any TB's, loved by the French and Germans, well before they were
able to lauch a devestating torpedo salvo.  Typical weights(WWII) were
(1,250dt - 3,000dt(Shimakaze class WWII DD)).  Modern destroyers provide the
same escort role although the TB is replaced by the Submarine and Airpower.

Battleships developed from the old concept of "the Ship of the Line".  During
the centuries preceeding the industrial revolution,  sea battles were fought
with set-piece tactics that generally resulted in the better equipped side
reigning victorious.  Thus "Battleships" were developed along the same idea;
 they were designed to be able to stand in the line(the toughest opponents)
and to be able to defeat any lesser ship one-on-one.  The modern Battleship
was a decendant of the HMS Dreadnought.  The first major battleship designed
with a uniform battery of heavy cannons(12 12", if memory serves).  The full
name was actually "Fear God and Dread Nought";  this ship was the harold of
all future battleships up to the supreme Yamato(9 46.0cm cannons) which
massed a whopping 70,000dt and had armor reaching 60 cm's in the turrets.
 Typical WWII range 35,000dt(treaty of Washington 1935) - 70,000dt.

"If you can't dazzle them with style, riddle them with bullets" Fred the
Bandit
Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 21:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Yacht

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970411162355.24629A-100000@internet.oit.edu>

<<   I was watching the BBC cable channel the other night (tv is fun
whenyou're in a different country), and I watched a special of the British
royal yacht Britannia.  Rather interesting - the ship is Royal Navy, but
operated not as a warship but to support the diplomacy of the English
government.  The film was great - a visit to South Africa by the Queen,
with a reception for government officials and a later tour of the yacht by
business people. >>

I remember that, it was a good programme. Even the machinery down in the 
engine room is spotless! I think Britannia is due to be decommissioned 
later this year :-(

IIRC Strephon's 'yacht' was mentioned in TD#9(?) - ISTR it was about 200kt 
and had a BatRon as escort...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 21:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

In-Reply-To: <335309E8.5814@siscom.net>

<<    It would appear that GDW has been avenged.  It also appears that
TSR's name will be fading away.  I'd like to say they'll be missed--I
would be lying.  While TSR did give the world many hours of
entertainment (including a few here and there for me), they also engaged
in business practices (especially early on) that were of a questionable
nature.  While these tactics served to secure TSR's market position,
they also made the RPG industry less robust, keep prices at a premium,
and ultimately help to lead to TSR's own apparent demise.  The next few
days and months should prove interesting. >>

While I agree with everything you said, I'm a little worried that the 
oldest, biggest, and best-known RPG company has been bought by a company 
that dumped all their RPGs in favour of CCGs...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: IISS Rast Rescue Boat

  You caught me - I used the armor listed in CSC as the minimum for the
design since it mentioned sub-orbital certification.  I just assumed that
there were more things to run into in planetary orbit than in deep space,
so the low armor was enough (combined with the radar to keep out of the
way of big chunks).  Plus, it's a high risk, glamorous job flying these
things - it has to be a bit dangerous!

  Seriously, it would not take much to upgrade the armor - it is a fairly
small fraction of the total ship weight.  An overall armor of 12 would
only add about 1.9 meteric tons to mass and take up essentially no more
volume.

  What would be hard is getting it to go any faster - the thrusters make
up 45 metric tons of the 81 tons total mass, plus 10 more tons for the
power plant.  That's 10 tons even - part of the reason the ship is sized
the way it is cause I got to an even power plant and thruster number.
Aside from the hull structure (19.5 tons), the rest of the contents are
piddly in terms of weight. 

  Just for fun, I looked at what you get if you doubled the size of the
thrusters and power plant - yes, it will fit in the hull - only takes
about 29 cubic meters more (stronger hull, more fuel, as well as power and
thrusters).  It increases the price from about 9MCr to about 15MCr, and
that buys you a 13.3 G unloaded, 13 G with 2.6 metric tons of cargo.  Of
course, that means the crew has to lie there at 3G for the entire boost
period - not much fun.  I didn't look at what increased G comp would be,
but would probably limit performance to more like 12 G due to increased
weight.

  Note that I used 2 crewpersons - I did this for the same reason the
equipment list included at least two of just about everything.  Redundancy
helps in emergencies.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:28:57 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Norris Preferences

>Who really cares?

Well.... that could certainly be said of any of things that we examine 
about Traveller down to the bare bones.

Apparently, the people discussing it care.


- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:32:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

Quoth Douglas E. Berry:
> <Leaping to the table where the deal is being signed>
> 
> "Gary Gygax, thou art avenged!"

AHA!  He's a Templar of Elemental Evil!  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:42:54 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Racism,  Sexism and the Third Imperium

All this talk of Norris' sexual orientation made me consider this:

In the Third Imperium is there racism, sexism, anti-gay, anti-anythings 
still left?  Of course, we know about anti-Vargr sentiment, and that the 
Solomani hate anything not Solomani, but is there the same sorts of 
problems we have today?

I know in DGP's Solomani/Aslan the reference is made to the Dootchen 
Estates in the Magyar sector.  The Dootchen Estates were formed by 
apartheidists (sp?) from South Africa who had colonized these worlds.  Is 
this common in the Imperium as well or is all racism now centered towards 
other races, androids, and the cloned?

Further, do we have the sort of prejudices still rampant in the Imperium 
as we do today?  Sex, age,sexual orientation ( obviously not if Norris 
was openly gay, but the fact that we've had this conversation suggests 
that Norris was not exactly forthcoming on this ), different races within 
the races, religious predjudices, and so forth.  Is this still common? or 
has all the hatreds been shifted toward other races ?

I know that in my campaigns, the Imperium tends not to have these 
predjudices while the Solomani still hold many of them.  As my campaigns 
are mostly in the Sol Rim and Magyar, this is important.

I'd be interested in your comments.
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Conservation

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:44:19 -0700
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> 
> The problem with the variation you (and others) suggested, in which 
> acceleration goes down as velocity increases (to maintain
> mv dv/dt = P) is that it only conserves energy in one reference frame.
> Transform to a different frame - for example, one at rest initially with 
> respect to the (moving) starship before it begins accelerating again - and
> you're no longer conserving energy. I suppose you could just toss away
> frame invariance and have a privledged frame that thruster plates conserve
> energy with respect to...although I have a lingering feeling that that doesn't
> work either.

Not sure I believe your assertion, so let's try some figures.  For
simplicty, let's have a 1 kg 'ship' pushing against a 10 kg 'planet' to
accelerate, with an initial separation velocity of 1 m/s.  For this
initial situation, we have:

Planet's rest frame:
  2 KE = 1 kg * (1 m/s)^2 = 1 J

Ship's rest frame:
  2 KE = 10 kg * (1 m/s)^2 = 10 J

Now, let's have our ship accelerate to 10 m/s relative to its old rest
frame.  By momentum conservation, the planet must then add velocity in the
opposite direction of 1 m/s.  So we now have:

Planet's *original* rest frame:
  2 KE = 1 kg * (11 m/s)^2 + 10 kg * (1 m/s)^2 = 131 J

Ship's *original* rest frame:

  2 KE = 1 kg * (10 m/s)^2 + 10 kg * (2 m/s)^2 = 140 J

Well, whaddya know.  Back to the drawing boards we go.  Can any real
physicists explain what's going on here?  I'd rather expected the
KE-conservation trick to be frame invariant.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 18:04:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1198] Computer by the Meter

pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
writes...

T::> Just a short comment - I was the one who posted about a
 ::>"computer that could be cut, etc".  The article SHOULD be posted on
 ::>Freelance Traveller with some minor updates whenever Jeff Zeitlin
 ::>comes out of his hibernation....

 It's no longer a question of hibernation (although I must
 admit to having GAFIAted for a while); it's a question of
 _real_ time. I'm cleaning it up now, and expect to have it
 ready to post this weekend or next.

 I _would_ ask you for one favor, though - if it's not too much
 trouble, could you _also_ do a version of this article that's
 styled more like one of the old "Ship's Locker" articles from
 the original JTAS?  Or an "Emperor's Arsenal" entry?  This is
 just my personal bias showing; I tend to find "sales brochures"
 rub my fur a little backward - possibly because it's virtually
 impossible to avoid them in the Rotten Apple.  Some expansion
 on the laser knife would also be useful.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  And God said: E = (mv^2)/2 - Ze^2/r, and there was light!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:13:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> It was just an idea, and one that obviously needs more work.  I was
> just hypothesizing as to how a PC could acquire a MCr170+ ship through
> mustering out.  But on a similar scale, WHY would the scout service
> loan out ships to retired scouts when they could be using them
> themselves?  

Because scouts never really retire...notice the restrictions regarding
getting your ships overhauled at scout bases, where you're debriefed.
Also, with huge numbers of dispersed scout/COURIERS floating around, I'll
bet thet the Imperium is very well covered should a fire erupt on the
frontier; there's lots of them to press into service, without having to
maintain a huge ongoing payroll. When the IISS buys scout/couriers on the
scale that they do, I'll bet they come a LOT cheaper than even QSDS ships.

Letting scouts retire with a ship is a perfect way of keeping a huge fleet
ready to mobilize anywhere they're needed.

That's also why I have always loved to play a scout character...you can
quite easily end up with a ship to use.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:52:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: High Guard query

I've been in the throws of setting up a Trillion Credit squadron Campaign,
which has gone and provoked some questions in my mind about the High Guard
manuever. Now I'm using the old book 5 rules with TCS, but any responses
related to different rules systems would be appreciated!

The intruder deploys at the GG, and the fleet forms up to perform refuel.
Now, I assume that the line of battle (LoB) deploys as the High Guard, and
the refueling ships form the reserve....

But then a squadron of SDBs engages the reserve from the depths of the GG
and attacks. Now - (here are the questions) - I assume that the refueling
reserve is now the LoB and the High Guard is effectively the reserve? I try
and expalin what I mean in an ASCII section through the atmosphere below:

Classic 'High Guard':

- --LOB (Intruder)-- (High Guard)
++++++++ Atmosphere of GG
Reserve (Intruder) (Refueling)

Question...

Version 1..
- --Reserve? (Intruder)-- (High Guard)
++++++++ Atmosphere of GG
LOB (Intruder) (Refueling)
SDBs (Native)

If a screening force of escorts is deployed to give the refueling ships a
lower level defense (maybe some fighters ;-) or Fleet Escorts) do we now
have two LoBs (a High and a Low Guard?).

Version 2.

- --LOB (Intruder)-- (High Guard)
++++++++ Atmosphere of GG
Reserve (Intruder) (Refueling)
LOB (Intruder) (Low Guard)
SDBs (Native)

Finally...
And what happens if the High Guard is then attacked by a second defending
force.

Version 3.

- --LOB (Native) -- Task force
- --LOB (Intruder)-- (High Guard)
++++++++ Atmosphere of GG
Reserve (Intruder) (Refueling)
LOB (Intruder) (Low Guard)
SDBs (Native)

Thanks in advance!



But

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1209
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1210



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Prostitution: (was: Re: Norris)
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: 1889
Re: Task systems Redux
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Infinity [NOISE]
Hovercraft are cheap again!
Conservation
[Sorry] and a question.
Conservation
Re: Antimatter containment
Where's Phil & Dixie (was Norris' sexual Orientation, et al.)
Where's Phil & Dixie (was Norris' sexual Orientation, et al.)
RE: Q-Ships
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Gays in the Imperium
Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: Antimatter containment
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:01:17 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Prostitution: (was: Re: Norris)

My wife, who is far kinkier than I, has just pointed out a story along these
lines that might be useful to the Ref interested in a more mature adventure.

The story is titled "Command Protocol", by R.L. Perkins.  Found in _S/M
Futures: Erotica on the Edge_ (Cecilia Tan, editor) from Circlet Press.

circlet-info@apocalypse.org,  http://www.apocalypse.org/circlet/home.html

The story concerns a Free Trader captain who has just paid off his ship
after many years.  As part of a new contract, a corp sends him a
professional girl to entertain him.  The Captain is so entranced, that he
ends up putting his ship back into hock to buy out her contract.

For the squeamish, most of the S/M-type stuff happens off-stage.

This might a good way to put PCs back on the road just when they thought
they were clear..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:14:03 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

> Just to set the record straight, I do not play D&D.  I don't like the
> rule mechanics and I don't like "science".

Just for the record, I do play D&D, and I think it is an incredible 
game--one of my favorites.

Kenneth.

> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:14:03 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: 1889

Hmmm, 1889...

I was always interested in it--I loved those old Jules Verne and 
H.G.Wells movies.

I've meet other gamers who either was interested in it too or even 
bought it, but never played.

But, I never bought it.

Strange that something can be so interesting to so many gamers (from 
the many I've meet), but never be played or bought.

Maybe this is why it was discontinued.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:14:02 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Task systems Redux

  I think Ken is more tied to the old system than he's
> willing to admit. ;-> 

Naw, I'll admit it.  I wanted KBv2.0 to make only the minimum 
changes necessary to fix the things that needed fixing.

I wasn't trying to re-invent the wheel.  I'm a firm believer in only 
toying with things that absolutely need it.

KBv2.0 should fit seemlessly into the overall T4 game.  I'm not 
trying to change things for the sake of changing them--I'm trying to 
fix things and make them better.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:15:32 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> > environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
> > and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
> > observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.
> 
> Correct.  But science further demands that we continue to test, poke,
> and prod, until there is NO DOUBT left in the "theory".  Only then is
> it considered "fact".  Aristotle did not have this thoroughness.

Which is impossible, so your definition fails.  How can you determine for
sure (100%) that something is right?  An example I am a scientists in the
18th century, I live in England, I count every Swan I can find, every Swan
I see is white, therefore I propose all Swans are white.  Other scientists
agree so we make a law, "all swans are white".  We then discover
Australia, I decide to visit Australia, and I'm shocked to find there are
black Swans.  Law broken.

You can never ever have "NO DOUBT".  Nothing is for sure.  You can get
something to a workable point, but thats it.  Thats my only beef, everyone
who has responded so far except for one other poster thinks science cant
be "wrong", its infalliable.  Well, surprise surprise it CAN be wrong.
That above example about the swans is a real life one.

As I said thats my only real beef.  Not even the Aristotle argument really
matters as different schools will consider him a "scientists" while others
wont, BUT science can be, and has been wrong.  No human endeavour is 100%
right, the closest thing I can think of is maths, and thats about it.


> > So, where does aristotle fail?  Just because he didnt use an electronic
> > microscope and didnt wear a white jacket?  He was limited to is own
> > primitive instruments and his own physical limitations but he formulated
> > theories on what he observed in the universe.  His a scientist in my
> > books, and his also considered a scientist but most scientific historians 
> > ive read.
> 
> He failed because he didn't have a red-headed lab assistant named
> "Beaker" :)

hehehe, I think he did, his name was Beakerstotle ... correct me if I'am
wrong :)

> [SNIP]
> 
> > Why such stabs at my education and character?  I havnt shown you any
> > disrespect.  What, am i getting a bit close to the truth am i?  Starting
> > to feel a sting are you?
> > 
> > Well, ive never had an email kill file before, but i think i'll make one
> > and add you to it "Mr. Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  GURPS fan, Amiga user,
> > Shakespearean scholar, actor and director."
> 
> How can you debate with people if all those who offend you are
> immediately placed in your Kill File?

I dont do that, I just dont like being attacked for no reason, nor do I
like "Shakespearen scholars" writing me off when they seemingly dont know
what there talking about.  It's just that conceited self-rightousness gets
me.

> Michl, or Solomani, or whatever... /please/ look over your postings
> before you hit the "SEND" button.  It will save us all a lot of grief.
> The rest of us on the list cannot *debate* with you if we cannot
> *understand* you.

If by understand you mean my grammar, I am sorry if that has prevented you
from understanding me.  I normally do not consider Emails of such import
that I make an effort to correct/check myself.




Creativity can sometimes be a curse.
Ask Dr. Frankenstein.
- -The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:26:06 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

At 09:24 PM 4/16/97 BST-1, Andrew Boulton wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <335309E8.5814@siscom.net>
>
><<    It would appear that GDW has been avenged.  It also appears that
>TSR's name will be fading away.  I'd like to say they'll be missed--I
>would be lying.  While TSR did give the world many hours of
>entertainment (including a few here and there for me), they also engaged
>in business practices (especially early on) that were of a questionable
>nature.  While these tactics served to secure TSR's market position,
>they also made the RPG industry less robust, keep prices at a premium,
>and ultimately help to lead to TSR's own apparent demise.  The next few
>days and months should prove interesting. >>
>
>While I agree with everything you said, I'm a little worried that the 
>oldest, biggest, and best-known RPG company has been bought by a company 
>that dumped all their RPGs in favour of CCGs...

Why, because they showed good business sense in doing so?  You can afford
to be a role-playing purist only until you start also running a business;
then such purism is an un-affordable luxury.  

BTW, I wonder why IG hasn't done or licensed a Traveller CCG...


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:06:13 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Infinity [NOISE]

There are three infinities that I know of geometrical examples for.
Aleph null (or aleph zero) is the number of rational numbers.  Geometrically,
it's the number of any infinity of discrete things.  Aleph one is the
number of irrational numbers.  Geometrically it is the number of points
in a line, surface, solid or whatever.  Aleph two is the next higher
infinity.  It is the number of possible curves that can be drawn.  Higher
infinities exist, but I don't think they have simple explanations.

As I understand it, all examples of a particular infinity are equal.  So,
there are as many points between 1 and 2 as there are between 4 and 6.
Are there any mathematicians on the list?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:12:19 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Hovercraft are cheap again!

Fooling around with CSC, I've found out that hovercraft are once more
practical alternatives to CG vehicles for NOE applications.  Under MT,
they just couldn't compete.  Now that they're not forced to provide 1-g
thrust civilian hovercraft are similar to civilian cars.

As a test, I designed a TL 8 civilian hovercraft that I see as being
a rural pickup truck.  It is open topped, has 6 seats and 1.7 cubic
meters of cargo space.  Power is provided by a 100 KW improved internal
combustion plant as turbines are too expensive.  The total cost is
only 8802 Cr!  This is within the reach of most of my player's budgets,
which is good as they seem to blow up one vehicle per gaming session.

I'm quite happy about this, since I've always liked hovercraft.  For
TL 9-10 I think they give better atmosphere than clean, silent airrafts.
I also like the idea of 1+g ducted fan craft, though they require very large
engines.  I don't think the acceleration formulae in CSC are quite right,
but that's another matter.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:13:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Conservation

   Hi.

   Preliminaries:
   p = momentum in kg m / s
   E = energy in joules
   c = speed of light = 3.00 * 10^8 m/s
   P = power in watts
   F = thrust in newtons
   r = rate at which reaction fuel is spent in kg/s

   Bruce wrote:

> Could you give me a clue as to how? I'm baffled as to how that might work
> (except for photon drives, of course...)

   You've got the right idea: photon drives.  Basically, you postulate
   some reaction field mediated by massless particles (say neutrinos or
   gravitons or bosons from some even weaker force) and your
   energy-momentum relation becomes p = E/c.  So your relationship
   between power and thrust becomes P = Fc.  If you use reaction fuel,
   your relationship becomes

   	P = sqrt((Fc)^2 + (rc^2)^2) - rc^2.

   Note that when r=0, P=Fc, as above. In the non-relativistic
   approximation:

   	P = F^2 / (2r).

   Note that without relativistic fields, some reaction fuel r is always
   required to get a thrust.  You can use the values of F and P given by
   the ship-design system of your choice and calculate r; for every
   incarnation of Trav so far, you'll find that r is very high, most
   starships can carry only a few minutes worth of reaction fuel if you
   require this reality check.

   These equations assume 100% efficiency in the conversion of power
   into thrust.  If you have some efficiency e<1, then replace P by eP
   in the above equations. Other than the neglect of efficiency, these
   equations should hold true for any type of drive, regardless of
   whether its power comes from some outside power plant, or is
   generated internally by the combustion of some rocket fuel.  Note
   that if you burn rocket fuel, there will be some relation between the
   amount of fuel you burn and the power you get out, governed by some
   "fuel constant" k, which will vary with fuel type:

   	P = kr.

   This leads to 

   	P = F * sqrt(k/2)

   and

   	r = F / sqrt(2k).

   This "fuel constant" k is somehow related to the "ISP" used by
   engineers.  I'm no engineer, just a lowly scientist, so I can't give
   you the exact definition of ISP offhand.

   Hope this helps.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:00:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: [Sorry] and a question.

Well it seems my poor grammer and spelling as well as my "die hard"
arguing style has upset a lot of the members of this list, if I have upset
you because of this, I'm sorry.  I did not realise that I had, nor was it
my intention to do so.

- --------------

Now my question, and I promise I will not abuse, heckel, attack or
dismember anyone who answers, how is hyperspace and "Jumping" explained in
Traveller? or is it just hand waved.

Is it something to do with time manipulation?  I only ask because a jump
takes 1 week no matter the Jump rating (If I remember correctly).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:41:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Conservation

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

> Well, whaddya know.  Back to the drawing boards we go.  Can any real
> physicists explain what's going on here?  I'd rather expected the
> KE-conservation trick to be frame invariant.

   Energy is /conserved/ in every reference frame, but it is not the
   /same/ in every reference frame.  In one reference frame, an isolated
   system may have 10 Joules of energy at some point in time; that means
   it will have 10 J of energy at any point in time, assuming it stays
   isolated.  In another reference frame, this same system will have 20J
   of energy; this 20J will be conserved at every point of time,
   provided you don't change your reference frame. IF YOU CHANGE YOUR
   REFERENCE FRAME IN THE MIDDLE OF ANY PHYSICS PROBLEM, NO CONSERVATION
   LAWS APPLY.  This little proviso in Newton's laws is often forgotten
   by quite advanced students (and faculty), and leads to the infamous
   "Twin" paradox, among many others.

   These same concerns apply to momentum as well as energy.

   In your post, you mention "Kinetic Energy" conservation; you probably
   meant to say "Energy" conservation.  Just in case you didn't, let me
   emphasize that kinetic energy is not conserved. Here on earth KE
   tends to be converted to heat energy by way of frictional forces;
   this is why Newtonian physics took so long to develop, historically. 
   In the future, we'll have nuclear energy being converted to kinetic
   energy by way of the ship's drives.  /Total/ energy is conserved,
   /kinetic/ energy is not.

   Gee, this physics lesson was actually solicited.  That doesn't happen
   very often!  Thanks!

   -Rob, a research physicist who's been out of the classroom way too long.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:06:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Antimatter containment

At 10:24 16/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:55:59 -0500
>> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>> Subject: Antimatter containment
>> 
>> Just an idea...could we store anti-H2 molecules in a bucky-ball cage?  The
>> repulsion should keep the AM centered inside the carbon shell until it's
>> broken by heat or shock.  Depending on what level of sensitivity we come up
>> with, this could be a fairly safe method of storing and transporting
>> AM..."Pump 10 gallons of AM-BB's into my tank, I've got a run to Mars
>> tomorrow." ;->
>
>Unfortunately, this probably won't work.  Positrons in the AM will
>*attract* electrons in the BB shell, and being closer to one another this
>attraction will tend to be greater than the mutual repulsion of
>positrons/protons and electrons/antiprotons.  Think Van der Waals forces,
>but in reverse, so to speak.  VdW forces create a potential minimum at
>some atomic separation, which creates an effective weak 'bond' between two
>atoms, but holds them at a slight seperation.  Anti-VdW would then be a
>shallow potential *maximum*, easy to slide over, and once inside the
>maximum separation the two atoms would slide into contact with one
>another, *boom*.  Even at relatively low temperatures, thermal vibrations
>would be easily enough to get over this energy curb.
>
>Even if this analysis is wrong for some reason, AM-BBs would be like
>super-nitroglycerin in terms of handling.  Any shock strong enough to
>break static confinement on even *one* BB would create a tiny M/AM
>explosion in that BB, which would create enough shock to set off all the
>surrounding BBs, and so on until the whole tank goes up.  Not the sort of
>stuff I want on *my* ship!
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>       "Every man and every woman is a star."
>
>
Then of course there's the risk for military apps. A fuel hit wouldn't be a
nuisance - it'd be a death sentence. In fact, come to think of it, a near
miss by an atomic missile or a PAWS could well irradiate the AM suffiently
to set some off - and then you're history.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:15:37 -0400
From: Steven K Pritchard <spritch@cinternet.net>
Subject: Where's Phil & Dixie (was Norris' sexual Orientation, et al.)

Y'know, the comments about TSR's demise and Norris' sexual orientation
makes me wonder if Phil Foglio is lurking in the wings...
Hi Guys!  This Month, we FINALLY do Sex in Traveller!

Steve Pritchard
http://www.cinternet.net/~mpritch

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.  Inside of a dog, it's too
dark to read."
						--Groucho Marx

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:15:37 -0400
From: Steven K Pritchard <spritch@cinternet.net>
Subject: Where's Phil & Dixie (was Norris' sexual Orientation, et al.)

Y'know, the comments about TSR's demise and Norris' sexual orientation
makes me wonder if Phil Foglio is lurking in the wings...
Hi Guys!  This Month, we FINALLY do Sex in Traveller!

Steve Pritchard
http://www.cinternet.net/~mpritch

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.  Inside of a dog, it's too
dark to read."
						--Groucho Marx

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 97 22:14:00 EDT
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RE: Q-Ships

	I think a while back the History Channel had on 'Our Century' durring one
of the WW1 shows that the Q-Ships came about by the Brits in Late 1915 - Early
1916 due to the German U-Boats who would surface, use their deck guns ((early
88mm's, none the less...) and they were more accurate than torpedos launched
underwater), and wreck Brit maritime traffic.  The Brittish took a load of old
naval guns, mounted them on converted fast freighters, made then look
'happless', and set them out. They showed old footage of sailors pulling back
wooden crates, flipping up the guns, then firing on targets. Can you see the
horror in a U-boat's skipper's eyes stareing down a few Brit 4.5" guns on a
'happless' freighter? I guess it was successful.
	Oh, I also learned that early U-boat skippers would surface, then, launch
their torpedoes. God, how we have progressed....

	"It's all part of Our Century", E. Herman

	Jeff Norton
	
	Life IS a minefield...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:18:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

In a message dated 97-04-15 06:12:27 EDT, you write:

<< This ode is a pretty clear indication of Norris's love for Dilgaadin.
 
 A life long bachelor with no close relationships with women who rejects
 them because they could not be a close as he was with another man.  I
 don't see any doubt that Norris is gay.
 
 Since Norris's heir and clone, Seldrian, shares his genes & most current
 genetic evidence suggests (although does not prove) that homosexuality
 is primarily genetic we can probably assume that she was also gay.  This
 might be part of the reason why her marriage to Avery Alledon (Emporer
 Strephons son) failed and their only child was conceived in vitro,
 although the facts that Avery was 20 years younger and that the marriage
 was a political one are other factors.
 
 Arrival Vengence suggests, in the chapter on Strephon, that the Emporer
 Strephon knew of Norris's homosexuality.  Certain of his comments to the
 players about Norris need for a heir and how his clone was a good
 solution to the problem suggest he knew the traditional method was out
 for Norris.
 
  >>
What an absolute crock!!  It is not obvious to me at all.  Every hear of
brotherly love?  Or perhaps he love him like a father.  Love does not
conotate sexual preference.  An I don't know where you are getting your
information, but saying that that sexual preference is genetic is laughable.
 Nuff' said.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:18:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

I think we are missing part of the point with tech level advances.  If tech
keeps advancing like it has in the past 100 years we will be TL 100 or
something goofy in 3000 years.  Obviuosly this isn't practicle or even
probable.  The things that make TL advances possible is the abiblity for
people to be prosperous enough with enough time and money to research new
advances.  Necessity also plays a big part.  

As mankind moves into the far reaches, life will be too focused on survival
initially to be making leaps in TLs.  Small colonies will not have the
ability to reproduce all technologies from their home planets as they don't
have room for every specialty and every device.  They take the things they
really need to survive and thrive.  TL advances are going to be sporatic and
uneven in particular areas.  As these colonies develop they will probably not
have enough regular contact to share tech advances and so each develops into
their own distinctive worlds with some shared tech.  

Then with the postulation of a "Dark Nite" or breakdown of lines of
communication and supply and possible breakdown or setback of societies for
whatever reason, sets back the TL again and they start over again (perhaps
from a fairly high TL).  

The discussion I have seen on here seems to assume an even paced development
evenly distributed across the galaxy.  The cool thing about Traveller is that
you can develop "Pocket Empires" with just about any TL and setting you can
imagine.

Just had to get that off my chest.  ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:40:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

I had a game a long time ago (Star Force) that used 3D mapping.  It had
systems on the plane as white, below the plane as red and above the plane as
blue.  The systems had a plus or minus number associated with them that
showed how far above or below the plan it was.  Their was a formula for
determining distances. Quite simple.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Gays in the Imperium

All this talk of 3-5% of the population being gay is fine for cultures
just like our own.  There are lots of worlds in the Imperium which may be
quite different.  Look at classical Greece and Rome, most men were
expected to be homosexual (and many women were too).  Similarly, in the
19th century navy and merchant marine male homosexuality was quite common. 

Take a look at books about homosexuality in history (there are many) or 
works like Bujold's _Ethan of Athos_ which describes an all male, all gay,
planet which reproduces through artificial wombs.

I'd expect rates of homosexuality to vary from 1-2% to 70%+ depending on 
the particular culture and planet.  Humans are pretty darn flexible wrt 
most behavior if there is enough cultural pressure.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:31:35 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?

>Here's a little interesing thing to thow into that setting, how about the
>same universe, 50 years in the future?  Called Space:1939?  Its a cross
>between Space:1889 and Indiana Jones, complete with Space Natzis to shoot
>at!  Imagine being dogged down by Space U-Boats,  Trying to keep Hitler from
>gaining wierd ancient alien technologies.  You thought the Arc of the
>Covenant was rough?  Wait till you've seen the Ancient Martian Pyramid
>Keepers Rod (which by the way is a FGMP-15!).

Actually I LOVE the idea!  I'm one of those strange people that enjoy this
kind of SF.  Might have something to do with reading to much "Tom Swift,
Jr." when I was young.

How about Traveller: 1950 where it's like they thought 1950 would be like
back in the 40's?  Complete with "Wagon-Wheel" space stations.  A few years
ago the Smithsonian did an exibite that would have made execellent source
material for such a thing.

The main problem I see is this might be hard to find players for.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:17:15 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

At 03:04 pm 04/16/97 +1000, you wrote:
>So whats Science?, Science is the systematic study of man and his
>environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
>and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
>observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.
>
>So, where does aristotle fail?  

	You don't know? You yourself just told everybody where he fails. He fails
precisely by YOUR definition, quoted above. As soon as you mentioned
SYSTEMATIC STUDY and REPRODUCEABLE OBSERVATIONS AND MEASUREMENTS.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:04:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Antimatter containment

At 09:55 pm 04/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 04/14/97 at 11:09 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>> > Maybe so, but God help the poor sods in an A-M equipped ship when the
power
>> > goes down...
>
>> Not really. That's what *batteries* are for. And most designs are such
>> that they won't "leak" in freefall anyway.
>
>> Now if you get an interior hit in the antimatter storage, *that's* a
>> problem. 
>
>Just an idea...could we store anti-H2 molecules in a bucky-ball cage?  The
>repulsion should keep the AM centered inside the carbon shell until it's
>broken by heat or shock.  Depending on what level of sensitivity we come up
>with, this could be a fairly safe method of storing and transporting
>AM..."Pump 10 gallons of AM-BB's into my tank, I've got a run to Mars
>tomorrow." ;->

	I remember reading an article several years ago about the theoretical
possibility of storing antimatter in the interstices of a crystalline
matrix. I don't recall how the author proposed getting the antiatoms IN or
OUT of the storage crystal, but once there, it was supposedly quite secure.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:23:49 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

At 08:14 am 04/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Your assertion that there is a greater infinity of points in a 3D space
>than a 2D space is incorrect.  The number of points in a line is the
>same as the number of points in a plane is the same as the number of
>points in a solid is the same as the number of irrational numbers.
>
>Here is an example of one such mapping.  Take a 2-D plane, with
>coordinates X and Y.  Let x and y be decimal digits of X and Y (we're
>working in base ten here).  Form the irrational number:
>
>I = 0.xyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxy...
>
>made by interchanging digits from X and Y.  Remember, X and Y can be
>irrational, so they go on forever.  However, I is irrational too, so
>it goes on forever as well.
>
>Now, move to 3D space.  Let X, Y and Z be coordinates in a solid.
>x, y and z are digits of the above, as before.  Now read I as:
>
>I = 0.xyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyz...

	Hmmm ... on second thought, I've got some serious doubts/questions about
this. How do you start the mapping? I.e. what becomes the first "x" after
the decimal in I, and what becomes the first "y?" Is it simply the first
digit in X and Y? Then what's the difference between (100,200), which maps
to (0.120000, or 0.12), and (1,2), which maps to (0.12)? And hence it's NOT
a one-to-one mapping. There are an infinite number of 2D points mapping to
the same 1D point, which again shows that 2D is a higher-order infinity
than 1D. Likewise 3D and 2D.

	And it would seem to me that a "true" mapping would be independent of the
base or method of REPRESENTING the numbers, which is simply our way of
describing the "concept" for example, of "10." Using decimal (1dec,2dec)
maps to (0.12dec). In binary (1dec,2dec) is (1b, 10b), and maps to
(0.1010b), which is NOT equal to (0.12dec), it's equal to (0.625dec).

	While I'm not a mathematician, I tend to doubt any mapping which depends
on the way the numbers are represented. Just because GFl'qrk comes from a
12-fingered race, if he/she/it tries to map the same point from 3D into 2D,
he/she/it should get the same 2D point that I do, even though he's
REPRESENTING the point using base-12, and I'm representing it using base-10.

	Remember, you need a unique mapping. A non-unique mapping is child's play
to come up with. Any 2D projection is a non-unique mapping of 3D. But
unless  I've missed something, this is definitely NOT a unique mapping.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1210
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1211



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications))
Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Jump Drives and Hyperspace (Re: [Sorry] and a question.)
Re: Tech talk
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Norris/Gay
Re: Gays in the Imperium
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
Missoury Archive Question
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: Infinity [NOISE]
Re: Norris' Sexual Orientation
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: Racism, Sexism and the Third Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:37:49 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications))

I have some major problems with the way that Tech Levels are presented 
anyway.
I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
because theyt are so close.
We (in our little playing group) have always assumed that TL really relates 
to manufacturing and support technology.
After all nothing stops a TL15 mechanic from setting up shop on a TL1 world 
(Spare parts will cost a packet however) just to support all that cool tech 
stuff that they cannot make on planet.
After all, except (perhaps) for some specific industrial secrets (such as 
Fusion Plus), most technology has already been discovered for each tech 
level so knowledge is not a factor but capability is.  Maybe some low tech 
level planets have teaching universities fully on par with those on higher 
tech planets - they cannot however do the researchy stuff.

Thoughts anyone ???

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:'@`]``$````!``````````,`#33]-P``\7CI
`
end

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Vessel Names?

Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:46:07 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

Andrew Boulton writes:

>While I agree with everything you said, I'm a little worried that the 
>oldest, biggest, and best-known RPG company has been bought by a company 
>that dumped all their RPGs in favour of CCGs...

   Wizards of the Coast went through some growing pains, that's all. 
They needed to regain their focus, and now they are in a position to
start expanding again (let's face it, their RPGs didn't sell very
well).  I won't comment on the total irony involved in their move on
TSR, but I will say that TSR has shown all the signs of being cash
starved the past year or so (sort of like a certain RPG/military
simulation company that used to produce a game called Traveller was
toward the end).  WotC has money apparently sitting around in boxes all
over their offices, so combining the two is only natural from a business
point of view.

   WotC is gambling that the RPG market will maintain its current size
or better yet, will grow.  There are many other things they could have
invested all that money in, many of them having a better payoff in the
short term certainly.  Here is another bit of irony--the company that
many people believe caused the decline of RPGs starting a few years ago
is now getting back into them in a major way.  Is a revival at hand?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:32:15 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Jump Drives and Hyperspace (Re: [Sorry] and a question.)

Solomani wrote:
> 
> Now my question, and I promise I will not abuse, heckel, attack or
> dismember anyone who answers, how is hyperspace and "Jumping" explained in
> Traveller? or is it just hand waved.
> 
> Is it something to do with time manipulation?  I only ask because a jump
> takes 1 week no matter the Jump rating (If I remember correctly).

>From the discussions on this list, I cobbled together an entry or
two for my Library Manual. They are attached. Comments are welcome!


Hyperspace

The basic concept of interstellar travel: that of an alternate space.
Theoretically, hyperspaces are alternate spaces, each only dimly 
understood from the standpoint of our own universe. Jump is defined as 
the movement of matter from one point in space (called normal space) to
another point in normal space by travelling through an alternate space 
(called hyperspace).

The benefit of jump is that the time required is relatively invariant 
- - about one week. If the distance traveled is greater than can be 
covered in one week in normal space, then a gain has been made. 
Hyperspace makes possible enormous gains.

Entering jump is possible anywhere but perturbations due to gravity 
make it safest to begin a jump at least 100 diameters out from a large 
massive body such as a world or star. Ships are naturally precipitated 
out of hyperspace before they get too deep into a gravity field.

Normal jumps take 168 hours (plus or minus 10 percent) to complete,
regardless of the distance traveled.

Sometimes a jump goes wrong. Catastrophic failures (called misjumps) 
can destroy the ship and its crew. Other failures can destroy a drive 
or send a ship in the wrong direction. Some misjumps reduce a jump-6 
to a mere jump-1 or convert a jump-1 into jump-10 or higher.

Jump Drive
The combination of equipment required to insert a starship into 
hyperspace and project a jump field. This consists of four components: 
A high-yield fusion power plant which energizes the second component, 
an energy sink array (usually constructed of Zuchai Crystals); when 
the jump point is reached this energy is transferred to a jump grid 
(usually of lanthanum) on the ships' hull under the control of a
jump governor. The jump governor is a computer controlled device 
which energizes the grid in a sequence determined by the jump to be 
undertaken.

The charging of the jump grid creates a particle field which allows a
starship to enter hyperspace. It is this field which encloses a 
normal-space "bubble" containing the ship. As long as the field is up 
the ship remains in hyperspace.

The field is generated by the jump grid. Once the grid reaction is
initiated, it cannot be stopped. It must be allowed to run its course.
It takes some time for the reaction to end; this time is 168 hours +/- 
10%.Once the reaction is completed, the particle field is no longer 
being replenished, and hence the ship naturally "precipitates" out of 
hyperspace.

Lanthanum is used in the production of the jump grid because its 
properties are such that it is the most efficient at "cooling". Other 
rare earth elements can be substituted at the expense of longer times 
for jump.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 23:57:54 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Tech talk

On 04/15/97 at 11:16 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> First you take a chunk of negative mass matter (negamatter). Since it has
> negative mass, pushing on it makes it move closer, pulling on it makes it
> move away. This is *not* antimatter.

Ah, yes!  Another Forward thinking idea. ;-> I remember reading about this
in Analog a *long* time ago.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:28:30 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:13:22 -0600
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

>	DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD !!!!

"I'm melting, I'm melting"

Speaking personally I've always had a soft spot for TSR (a bog just
outside Christchurch actually). But isn't this rather like Uncle Mo's
Chocolate shop buying out Nestles?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:28:26 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Norris/Gay

>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Norris/Gay

>Harold D. Hale Said, responding to Glenn M. Goffin who asked:

>>>When did we establish that Norris was gay?

>>   GDW never just came out and said it, but if you "read between the
>>lines", his relationship with his trusted aide seemed to go well beyond
>>employer-employee

>This is stretching things a bit beyond what Marc intended, I think, but as it
>has no effect on the game,  individual referees can do what they think makes
>their campaign more interesting.

>Marc always used to say that Traveller players were free to choose their
>character's gender and gender preference. I think we got one letter in 15
>years asking about the position of gays in Imperial society...maybe two.

Okay, this begs the question, just what is the position of gays in Imperial
Society? Is it a big thing or only asked when figuring out whether to make
up one bed or two for guests?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:31:58 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

John R. Snead writes: 

>All this talk of 3-5% of the population being gay is fine for cultures
>just like our own.  There are lots of worlds in the Imperium which may
>be quite different.  Look at classical Greece and Rome, most men were
>expected to be homosexual (and many women were too).  Similarly, in the
>19th century navy and merchant marine male homosexuality was quite >common.

   Well actually you have to differentiate between being homosexual (or
bisexual) and committing a homosexual act.  Many people who are not gay
experiment sexually, particularly when they are young.  

   In the case of the ancient Greeks, it was not uncommon for an older
man (30s-40s) to take on a young man (late teens) in a mentor role and
for that relationship to become sexual.  The Spartans were known for
their strict segregation of the sexes (husbands and wives did not
routinely live together), and that homosexual relationships were very
common, though Spartan warriors took wives just as other Greeks.  As for
the Romans, the activities of the upper classes are well documented,
though perhaps at times exaggerated (particularly Caligula's orgies). 
Homosexuality was not a particularly big deal in pagan Rome, but as the
Empire became a Christian one, attitudes changed.
 
   As for 19th century sailors, being without female companionship for
months at a time in close quarters tends to make the guy in the next
bunk start to look pretty good (particularly when you haven't taken a
vow of celibacy).  This also explains to a degree the amount of
homosexual activity in prisons.

   I would say an average for a truly gay population would be around 2
percent, though the percentage engaging in homosexual acts could range
from 0 to 100 percent depending on the culture, government, law levels,
etc.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:41:32 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:14:03 +0000, you wrote:

> > Just to set the record straight, I do not play D&D.  I don't like the
> > rule mechanics and I don't like "science".
> 
> Just for the record, I do play D&D, and I think it is an incredible 
> game--one of my favorites.

I just didn't want to come across as if AD&D was the bestest RPG in
the universe.  I guess I should have emailed you my posting so that
you could have taken the credit :P

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:41:34 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:40:55 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> I had a game a long time ago (Star Force) that used 3D mapping.  It had
> systems on the plane as white, below the plane as red and above the plane as
> blue.  The systems had a plus or minus number associated with them that
> showed how far above or below the plan it was.  Their was a formula for
> determining distances. Quite simple.

Simpler than looking at a sector map of the Spinward Marches and
simply counting hexes?  What if you wanted to determine a long passage
with multiple stops?  Now be honest...

I'm not saying that a 3D map would be complicated.  Just *more*
complicated than a standard 2D map like we have used in Traveller for
years.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:41:30 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:13:28 -0700 (MST), you wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> > It was just an idea, and one that obviously needs more work.  I was
> > just hypothesizing as to how a PC could acquire a MCr170+ ship through
> > mustering out.  But on a similar scale, WHY would the scout service
> > loan out ships to retired scouts when they could be using them
> > themselves?  
> 
> Because scouts never really retire...notice the restrictions regarding
> getting your ships overhauled at scout bases, where you're debriefed.

Ok.  By Traveller's own admission, "retired" scout characters can gain
the possession of a Scout/Courier during mustering out.  Literally,
NO, they do not retire.  I was basing my statement on the former usage
of the word :P

> Also, with huge numbers of dispersed scout/COURIERS floating around, I'll
> bet thet the Imperium is very well covered should a fire erupt on the
> frontier; there's lots of them to press into service, without having to
> maintain a huge ongoing payroll. When the IISS buys scout/couriers on the
> scale that they do, I'll bet they come a LOT cheaper than even QSDS ships.

This doesn't say much for the proposal Ian mentioned, that no Navy
would "lend" out Q-ships to "retired" personnel due to the fear that
they could be used against them of for criminal activity.

> That's also why I have always loved to play a scout character...you can
> quite easily end up with a ship to use.

Me too.  None of that, "Can't make my payments, gotta swipe the ship,
gotta make sure my fellow PCs never find out that their ass is grass
too once they catch up with me(us)" :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:50:33 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Missoury Archive Question

I'm looking for sector data, so i went on Missoury Archives and I found in
the GENERAL directory 3 subdirectories :

OldSectors
SectorsNSC or SectorsDGP (I don't remember)
Sectors

1- Can anyone tell me the difference?


And in the HIWG directory there are

1117/1200 Data (in specific sector directories) in separate files
DOD_ILL
DOD_NSC

2- Do anyone know the differences of those files?


So : 
3- Which file do I have to use till I want the most official data from
Pre-collapse and New Era data


Thanks for the help
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:52:02 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

>Quoth Douglas N Sinclair:
> Your assertion that there is a greater infinity of points in a 3D space
> than a 2D space is incorrect.  The number of points in a line is the
> same as the number of points in a plane is the same as the number of
> points in a solid is the same as the number of irrational numbers.
>
>Quoth Joseph "Chepe" Lockett:
>Actually, mind-bendingly enough, there _are_ different sizes of
>infinities.  The infinity of points existing between, say, 1 and 2,
>is smaller than the infinity of points existing between, for example,
>4 and 6.  No, I don't understand it completely.  Ask my dad the
>doctorate-holder....  :-)

(Professional mode on)

        Douglas is right, when we speak just of cardinals. The cardinal of R
to the n (the set of real numbers to the n: R**2 is the plane, R**3 is the
space) is always c, or aleph-1, the continuum cardinal. And yes, Joseph,
it's not intuitive, but the infinity of points in (1,2) is c, and the
infinity of points between (4,6) is also c. These two sets are bijective,
and the bijection is b(x)=2x+2. All the theory of transfinite numbers, which
happens to fall under my algebra specialty ;-), started back with good ol'
Kantor... who ended his days in a psychiatric institution. So, don't bother
too much with these questions. They're dangerous.
        Nevertheless, on the issue of 2D<->3D conversions, I think one
should be interested in more than bijections. The cardinal of the set is not
the only important thing, because R**3 and R**2 have a structure, and it
matters a lot for mapping purposes. R**n is a linear metric space endowed
with, e.g., the euclidean distance. And, as linear space, R**n has a
DIMENSION of n (and this is totally different from the cardinal concept).
And two linear spaces of different dimension CANNOT be isomorphic, i.e.
there is no possible bijection between R**2 and R**3 which maintains the
"structure". In other words, a *general* 2D<->3D conversion has,
necessarily, to be a real mess...

(Professional mode off)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:12:29 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Infinity [NOISE]

>From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>

>There are three infinities that I know of geometrical examples for.
>Aleph null (or aleph zero) is the number of rational numbers.  Geometrically,
>it's the number of any infinity of discrete things.  Aleph one is the
>number of irrational numbers.  Geometrically it is the number of points
>in a line, surface, solid or whatever.  Aleph two is the next higher
>infinity.  It is the number of possible curves that can be drawn.  Higher
>infinities exist, but I don't think they have simple explanations.

        Right... but the *fact* that there are no other infinities between
aleph-0 and aleph-1 is actually a hypothesis (the continuum hypothesis), so
things are even more complicated than that.

>As I understand it, all examples of a particular infinity are equal.  So,
>there are as many points between 1 and 2 as there are between 4 and 6.
>Are there any mathematicians on the list?

        I asked recently the same question. From the answers I got, yes, a
grand total of TWO mathematicians by degrees (Scott Ellsworth and me),
although three more people wished to be counted as half-mathematicians...

        Traveller reference: Well, I've never discussed this because it
would need too much explanation to a non-mathematician to be interesting,
but, as Douglas and Joseph have raised the issue (so I can say 'it was not
me' <g>)...

        An introduction to Yet Another Jumspace Theory
        ==============================================

        The structure of the set of transfinite numbers reflects the
physical reality. There is a bijection between the set of transfinite
numbers and the set of physical spaces. Aleph-0 is associated to real space,
while Aleph-n (for n>=1) corresponds to Jumpspace-n. Basically, the
corresponding cardinal measures the possible "meta-quantum situations" that
a particle can be in, in the corresponding space. A "meta-quantum situation"
is a complete specification of energy level, probability distribution over
location, and all other necessary physical characteristics.
        The lanthanum grid has the effect of exponentially increasing the
variance of meta-quantum situations in the particles of a body. In the
limit, the body cannot be contained in its space and so "jumps" into the
appropriate one.
        The set of transfinite numbers is discrete only if the continuum
hypothesis is accepted. The discovery of jumpspace requires a deep
understanding of the transfinite number theory. Those races who do not
incorporate as an assumption the continuum hypothesis have failed to
discover the jump-drive.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:18:27 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Norris' Sexual Orientation

Have to say I'm not entirely convinced he was gay, but I don't see 
his sexuality ever being an issue for PCs.  Not unless there was some 
political move to "out" him, and I don't think that would happen.  
(Not sure it's culturally possible, for a start.)

I would suspect the irreplacability of the psionic seneschal is due 
to the unavailability of eligible *psionic* women; since eligiblity 
mean ex-Imperial noble in all probabiliy, where anti-psionic 
prejudice was probably strongest, chances are there weren't any.

Re Strephon approving of Norris' female clone in Arrival Vengeance, I 
always thought he approved i) that Norris had an heir, and ii) hadn't 
made Strephon's mistake of identical (i.e. male) clones.  Since the 
issue of Strephon being a clone was live at the time, I never thought 
of it otherwise.

And being CT/MT only (and now some T4), psionic sensechals are beyond 
my ken.  I'd always assumed that Deneb would change to be less 
anti-psi under the influence of the Zhodani.  An influence exerted 
partly by *not* attacking.  Hmmmm.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:28:35 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

        (Answering to Douglas)

>	Hmmm ... on second thought, I've got some serious doubts/questionsabout
>this. How do you start the mapping? I.e. what becomes the first "x" after
>the decimal in I, and what becomes the first "y?" Is it simply the first
>digit in X and Y? Then what's the difference between (100,200), which maps
>to (0.120000, or 0.12), and (1,2), which maps to (0.12)? And hence it's NOT
>a one-to-one mapping. There are an infinite number of 2D points mapping to
>the same 1D point, which again shows that 2D is a higher-order infinity
>than 1D. Likewise 3D and 2D.

        Douglas example was made, IIRC, only for irrational numbers. Your
counterexample uses rational ones. You can delete all rational numbers from
R and still have the same cardinal, so they are irrelevant. Never mind, even
if a given example is not a bijection, that does not prove anything as you
seem to believe. It does not 'show' anything. Equivalence of cardinals means
existence of bijections, not that every map is a bijection. The fact that
the cartesian product of sets of a given transfinite cardinal has exactly
the same cardinal is in any undergarduate algebra textbook. But refer to my
previous post: dimension is not the same than cardinal.

>	And it would seem to me that a "true" mapping would be independentofthe
>base or method of REPRESENTING the numbers, which is simply our way of
(Snip)
>Remember, you need a unique mapping. A non-unique mapping is child's play
>to come up with. Any 2D projection is a non-unique mapping of 3D. But
>unless  I've missed something, this is definitely NOT a unique mapping.

        The set ob bijections between R**2 and R**3 is... infinite. And it's
not clear which infinity <g>. These maps are non-unique. Sorry, any
conversion would be a convention, depending on the way numbers are
represented, or any other arbitrary criterion. No way around this. No
"canonical" mappings.

        To summarize:

        1) 2D-space can be made bijective to 3D-space. No problem. It's proved.
        2) There is no 'canonical' way to do this bijection. Infinity of
possibilities.
        3) There is no bijection respecting the linear structure
(isomorphism). Any conversion has to be a mess.

        The only way around it, of course, for game purposes, is to add a
dimension to you 2D space by noting some number or colour which refers to
the third dimension. But the you are using a 3D-space...
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:18:00 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Racism, Sexism and the Third Imperium

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:42:54 -0700
> From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
> Subject: Racism,  Sexism and the Third Imperium
> 
> All this talk of Norris' sexual orientation made me consider this:
> 
> In the Third Imperium is there racism, sexism, anti-gay,              > anti-anythings still left?  Of course, we know about anti-Vargr       >sentiment, and that the Solomani hate anything not Solomani, but is    >there the same sorts of problems we have today?

When you say "In the Third Imperium" do you mean opinions held by people
and governments on planets within the Third Imperium or do you mean
opinions held by the Imperial government itself ?  These are not the
same question.  

I think that the short version of the answer is that many planets do
have some predjudices, some planets are very predjudiced, and some
planets are unpredjudiced.  The people from these planets tend to hold
similar opinions but if & when they enter Imperial Military service they
will probably be tought that these differences are unimportant.

> I know in DGP's Solomani/Aslan the reference is made to the Dootchen
> Estates in the Magyar sector.  The Dootchen Estates were formed by
> apartheidists (sp?) from South Africa who had colonized these worlds. > Is this common in the Imperium as well or is all racism now centered  > towards other races, androids, and the cloned?

Most, but not all.  Remember that non Solomani all come from a small
gene pools and thus tend to be more racially homogeneous than
earthlings, or even than earthlings from the same country.  I think that
_cultural_ predjudice will be the most common type, but that this will
have some implicit racial (human sub race) predjudice as well.  For
instance the First Imperium was clearly predjudiced against non Vilani
and the Second Imperium was clearly predjudiced against non Solomani. 
Arguably the Third Imperium has some predjudices against those who are
not Vilani, Solomani, or Sylean.

South African style racism will probably be the most uncommon type of
racism out there however.  Most members of the Third Imperium are from a
blend of Solomani and Vilani stock.  Vilani are rather dark skinned, and
most Solomani are not caucausian either. Therefore most Imperials
_are_not_white_ (although this would be more apparent if more art from
CT & MT was color rather than black & white.  Since most people in the
Imperium will be dark skinned they are unlikely to have South African
views.
> 
> Further, do we have the sort of prejudices still rampant in the       > Imperium as we do today?  Sex, age,sexual orientation (obviously not  > if Norris was openly gay, but the fact that we've had this            > conversation suggests that Norris was not exactly forthcoming on this > ), different races within the races, religious predjudices, and so    > forth.  Is this still common?

As above I suspect planets discriminate but the Imperium does not.

> or has all the hatreds been shifted toward other races ?

Well I think that hatred of some races (I won't name any names but these
massive herbivores inhabit an area known as the 2000 Worlds...) is in
fact a good idea that should be encouraged.  But in general I would
suggest that "discrimination" against non humans is really not the same
thing as interhuman discrimination.  The current racist ideas about
human subspecies are based on perceived differences that are far smaller
and more subtle than those between different species so I think that far
more people will discriminate against other species.  The most common
type of anti alien discrimination will probably be _True_ however and
will thus be valid.

The alien races in Traveller do have noticable traits and it is not an
unreasonable pattern of behavior to engage in what is called statistical
racism towards them.  (Statstical racism is behavior that treats the
individual as a part of the group he/she in in.  For example when an
employer is reluctant to hire a female employee because of his belief
that she may quit her job if & when she become pregnant (thereby wasting
the money spent training her) he is acting based on the quite accurate
data which indicate that the number of pregnant women who quit their
jobs is significantly larger than the number of pregnant _men_ who do
so.) It seems to me to be perfectly valid to treat aliens in this
mannner.  I think that anyone who is going to deal with a Vargr needs to
understand Vargr psychology but the level of popular understanding of
Vargr psychology will not necessarily be much above that of racist (but
somewhat true) slogans such as "You can't ever trust a Vargr because
they will betray you." or "Vargr workers are more trouble than they are
worth because they are always so pushy towrds you."

Cannonically the Third Imperium shows discriminatory behavior towards
non humans, especially nonhuman minor races, and against human minor
races.  It could easily be the case that some of this discrimination
against human minor races is due to dislike of some of there practices.

For example in my Third Imperium the Darmine human race have an both a
very high incidence of bisexuality and homosexuality and a polytheistic
religion one of whose primary (and annoying) tenants is the
numerological belief that anything that happens in fours is significant.
When I played a Darmine charecter (Baron Captain Trier dehah Tarlineal
Imperial Navy flight branch) the other players and the NPC's seemed to
accept his flagrantly promiscuous bisexuality as an eccentricity but
were driven nearly crazy when he would say things like "Of course
something important was going to happen on this planet because this is
the 4th planet we went to after leaving Capitol/Core in this Jump 4
Yacht, that I was the 4th crewperson hired for, on a journey across 4
sectors.  Somehow the party found this smugness a little hard to take as
we were calming down from our encounter with at an Ancients site :) 
Their intolerance of his numerological crazyness was cultural
discrimination against him but it was entirely justified.

>I know that in my campaigns, the Imperium tends not to have these
> predjudices while the Solomani still hold many of them.  As my        > campaigns are mostly in the Sol Rim and Magyar, this is important.

The Solomani clearly discriminate against non Solomani but I do not
think that they usually have very much subspewcies (racial) predjudice,
the beliefs of the Dootchen Estates do not illustrate Solomani racism in
general but rather they illustrate the weakness in/ freedom allowed by
(pick one) the Solomani Confederation.  

> I'd be interested in your comments.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1211
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1212



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: 2D starmaps
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Tech Talk
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: [Sorry] and a question.
Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications))
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Infinity [NOISE]
Re: [Sorry] and a question.
Re: Gays in the Imperium
Life is hard in Traveller (and 2)
Yes, I am a [NOISY] mathematician
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Traveller 1950?  Hey, that's my idea!
Laser USPs & THUDDD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:24:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

In mail you write:

> I had assumed the same.  But, if the uncertainty in position is an inherent
> property of jump space, such a coordination might not be possible.

One thing. I've been *looking* for a statement that gives "uncertainty
in position". I've found several dealing with uncertainty in *time of
emergence*, but *nothing* about position.

So if *anyone* has references that give a *positional* uncertainty in
emergence, I'd like to hear about them.

BTW, given a "typical" orbital velocity of 30 km/sec, a one hour
difference in time of emergence means that the planet has moved 108,000
km or about 3.6 light seconds. 

So part of any "uncertainty" is going to be the uncertainty in the
position of the destination with respect to the starting point. It's
not easy to determine the relative positions of planets in different
stellar systems!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:24:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 2D starmaps

In mail you write:

> Oops... Misunderstanding... What I meant was that theoretically you
> should be able to do a one-to-one mapping of 3D to 2D space, but don't
> look to me for the answer to that question.

Probably by a variant on the trick used to map 2d space to a 1d line.

To do the 2d to 1d mapping, you just take the co-ordinates(X.xxxxx,
Y.yyyyy) and convert them to XY.xyxyxyxy.... This *does* give a unique
mapping. But it's not a *useful* mapping. 

Hmmmm. For 3d to 1d, it'd be (X.xxx...,Y.yyy..., Z.zzz...) -> XYZ.xyzxyz...

So use that as an intermediate and you get something like:
    XX.xxx..., YY.yyy..., ZZ.zzz...
    XYZXYZ.xyzxyzxyz....
    XZY.xzyxz..., YXZ.yxzyx...

Or a "simpler" way is just take the "odd" digits of the X, Y, and Z
co-ords and turn them into the digits of the X co-ord, and the "even"
digits into the Y co-ord.

It *works*, especially with a hex map or squares. But the results are
hardly intuitive, or conducive to visualizing things. And distance on
the 2D map has only the vaguest relation to distance on the 3d one.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:38:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In mail you write:

> Well, not quite the only reason. The PC-jr. wireless keyboard failed for a
> number of reasons, the biggest of which was it wasn't an IBM standard
> keyboard! (IBM was famous for screwing THAT one up, though!) The other
> reason was that it was a toy-like chiclet awful thing that was impossible
> to type on. The biggest problem was that IBM was scared of cannibalizing
> their 'business' computer sales by introducing an as-powerful 'home'
> computer, so the dumbed down the PC-jr. a LOT, making it appear like a
> worthless toy, and the sales of the thing played that out.

Well, Tandy made a good living off of the Tandy 1000 line, which was
specificly designed as a PCjr compatible. My 1000 TL/3 has almost
completed the transition to fully PC compatible, yet it'll still accept
the PCjr's "good" points (the enhanced graphics, and the sound). In
fact it has *improved* on them. I get 640x200x16 graphics on a CGA
monitor, and very good sound I/O (I can play most types of WAV and AU
files, as well as create sound files).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:59:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

In mail you write:

>> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:51:35 -0600 (MDT)
>> From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
>> 
>> It's funny, when I first bought CT in the late 70's (mighta been
>> early 80 :-/ I never in a million years would've described the
>> drives used as reactionless.  The lack of a clear statement of that
>> meant that I called them "fusion torches."
>
> That's because the CT rules never really nailed down what maneuver drives
> were; the only clues were nozzle-looking things at the aft end of (some) 
> deckplans.  In my way-back-when CT campaign, I waffled...at first, I said
> they were fusion rockets, then decided that I wanted to be able to land
> ships without starting firestorms, and moved to reactionless thrusters.

Except that the exhausts are *incredibly* narrow. And with their
exhaust velocity, they tend to drill holes into soil and rock rather
than splash. 

I also figured that there was a reason Type D(?) ports were "a patch of
bare rock".

>> HEPlaR was a goofy attempt to make a nearby-spectator friendly
>> version, which I never liked much.  Besides which, HEPlaR has to
>> fuse the fuel to have the KE of the exhaust balance with the PE of
>> the fuel (which was actually described as something closer to
>> propellant).

It doesn't *matter* how you get it, whether fusion or "high energy
plasma". The exhaust velocity (and thus temperature) is gonna be very,
very high. 

But do note that small rocket engines are used to drill thru hard rock
right now! 

> And that's the other big reason for moving to thrusters.  HEPlaR is just
> about at (or even a bit over) the theoretical maximum ISp you can derive
> from fusion; even so, Travelleresque ships only get 60ish G-hours of
> thrust out of HEPlaR. 

Huh? What's the Isp given for HEPlar? My (old) references gave fusion
rockets a theoretical Isp of 600,000.

Isp = thrust (in "mass" units) divided by fuel flow rate (mass per sec).
I=t/(m/s)
6e5=1e5/(m/s)
6=1/(m/s)
6*m/s=1
m/s=1/6

That means that you can get 100 tons of thrust (1e5 "kilos" or 1e6
newtons) with a fuel flow of 1/6th *kilogram* per second. 60 G-hours
for a 100 ton ship would be all of 10 *kilos* of fuel. You get 720
hours (30 days) with 120 kilos.

This also shows why landing isn't a problem. The exhaust is *hot*, but
there's so *little* of it, that it cools quickly. So things that are
"in the way" get blasted to hell, but stuff a few meters away is hardly
touched.

> This rather seriously breaks the canon/traditional
> feel of space combat and in-system travel.  To get any higher performance,
> you need a more energetic process (matter-antimatter annihilation, for
> example, would buy about 15 times the performance per unit mass of fuel),
> or a hand-wave reactionless drive.  As I and others have discussed, the
> latter runs afoul of conservation laws.

But take a good look at what *real* fuel flow rates get you. Getting
the performance to match isn't all that hard.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:42:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

In mail you write:

> On 04/14/97 at 11:12 PM,  Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> said:
>> v = (2Pt/m)^0.5

> Chepe, in what terms are you expressing v?  Meters per second?
>
> P : Engine power in (in MW? KW? what?)
>
> t : seconds of constant thrust
>
> m : Ship's mass in Kg

Given the derivation, any consistent set of units. MKS, cgs, etc. 


	MKS		cgs
V = meters/second	cm/sec
P = watts		ergs/sec
T = seconds		sec
M = kilograms		grams

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:46:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech Talk

In mail you write:

>>> So, tell us how we pull off reactionless STL...and don't blow
>>> Conservation^3?
>>
>>First you take a chunk of negative mass matter (negamatter). Since it
>>has negative mass, pushing on it makes it move closer, pulling on it
>>makes it move away. This is *not* antimatter.
>
> [rest of solution deleted]
>
> Am I correct in assuming that negametter is what is sometimes called 
> exotic matter, i.e. matter with negative energy? (E=mc^2 would imply 
> so...)

Negamatter is a *form* of exotic matter. Not all things identified as
"exotic matter" will be negamatter, but all negamatter is exotic.

> If so, negamatter can also be used to create a real, 
> honest-to-goodness FTL drive -- it's used to warp spacetime such that 
> the ship travels locally STL, but FTL w.r.t. the rest of the 
> universe.

The Alcubierre warp drive requires more than "just" exotic matter. They
"destroy" spacetime in front of the ship and create it behind it. 

> Stepping back into Traveller for a moment, given that FTL drives 
> don't work in that manner, I don't think we can allow thruster 
> technology based on it either.

Sure we can. Alcubierre drives are up around Grandfather's tech level. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:47:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

In mail you write:

>>Bruce wrote
>>> (Energy turns out to be much more of a problem than
>>> momentum - in the solar-system-rest frame, most accelerating thruster 
>>> craft
>>> are gaining kinetic energy much more rapidly than their power plant is
>>> generating energy.
>
>>Well, that's because you *assumed* that they could violate conservation
>>of energy. If you limit the KE increase to the power plant's output,
>>then you conserve both momentum and energy. 
>
> Well, I was trying to discuss classic Traveller thruster plates...
>
> The problem with the variation you (and others) suggested, in which 
> acceleration goes down as velocity increases (to maintain
> mv dv/dt = P) is that it only conserves energy in one reference frame.

I suggest that you try it. But don't forget that you have to measure
the KE and momentum of both the ship *and* whatever it is pushing on.
When you do that, it *is* frame invariant. That's because it *is*
actually pushing on something.

I *think* that my "true reactionless" drive violates conservation of
momentum in all frames, but conserves energy in all frames (it's
required to obey W=FD in it's own frame, and I think that transforms ok
into other frames)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:29:45 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

At 03:56 PM 4/17/97 +1000, you wrote:
>
>Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
>names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
>have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.

giskharshaza
isiishurka
ansasish
karar
urgi

They are in Vilani after all...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:29:39 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [Sorry] and a question.

At 01:00 PM 4/17/97 +1000, you wrote:

>Now my question, and I promise I will not abuse, heckel, attack or
>dismember anyone who answers, how is hyperspace and "Jumping" explained in
>Traveller? or is it just hand waved.
>
>Is it something to do with time manipulation?  I only ask because a jump
>takes 1 week no matter the Jump rating (If I remember correctly).

The jump drive operates by opening a hole into a type of "hyperspace",
called jump space strangely enough.  There are 36 known "levels" of jump
space, although only the first six are able to be used reliably.  

A ship's jump drive is a large fusion plant, designed to burn a great amount
of fuel in a very short period to provide the burst of power needed to tear
open the hole in normal space.  There is some debate as to how much jump
fuel is actually used as fuel, and how much is used as coolant, but that
seems to be more a matter of style.

Starships have either inner jump coils (Classic Traveller) or a hull grid
(Mega Traveller+) made of lanthanum.  (I prefer the hull grid theory.)  The
lanthanum is vital to opening the jump hole, and is quite valuable as a result.

The mechanics of astrogation are glossed over in the rules... there is a was
to set your course, but we aren't really told what it is.  Most starports
sell or provide pre-set jump coordinates for neighboring systems.

Each jump number indicates what level of j-space it can enter.  A Jump-2
ship can enter jumpspace that will allow it to travel 2ly in approx 168
hours (+/- 10%).  The largest jump possible, at TL15, is six.  The only way
to jump further is through an uncontrolled mis-jump, which can take you up
to 36ly away from your starting point!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:29:42 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications))

At 04:37 PM 4/17/97 +1200, you wrote:
>
>I have some major problems with the way that Tech Levels are presented 
>anyway.
>I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
>Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
>because theyt are so close.
>We (in our little playing group) have always assumed that TL really relates 
>to manufacturing and support technology.

I see TL as being the level that the world could maintain if cut off from
interstellar contact.  A world may import higher TL gear, but it's the
ability to manufacture and repair that counts.

Don't be too sure about technology trickling down from high tech worlds..
Here on Earth there are still areas operating at TL2-3, while we chat away
on our TL8 computer networks.  Cultural attitudes, legal restrictions, lack
of resources, all these can lead to a world lagging behind in TL.

>After all nothing stops a TL15 mechanic from setting up shop on a TL1 world 
>(Spare parts will cost a packet however) just to support all that cool tech 
>stuff that they cannot make on planet.

True, but who are his customers?  Odds are, he's going to be near the
starport, and most of his work will be done for visiting spacers.  It'd be
much like setting up a computer repair shop in the highlands of Papua-New
Guinea, the customers you get will be grateful to find you, but it may be
*years* between them.

>After all, except (perhaps) for some specific industrial secrets (such as 
>Fusion Plus), most technology has already been discovered for each tech 
>level so knowledge is not a factor but capability is.  Maybe some low tech 
>level planets have teaching universities fully on par with those on higher 
>tech planets - they cannot however do the researchy stuff.

Vilani settled/influenced worlds, with their attitude towards the ownership
of technology, are not going to be that quick to advance; it's simply
against what they know is right.

Rather than universities, the big agent of change in the Imperium is going
to be the Navy and Marines.  Imagine a farm kid from a TL4 world joins the
Marines.  He sees and learns to use equpment that is one step removed from
magic, and sees how easy life is with these tools.  After four years, he
returns home, and starts improving things on the family farm using
techniques he learned in the INMF.  Enough of these vets, and you'll see a
slow, steady rise in TL.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:54:22 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

At 05:28 PM 4/17/97 +1200, Andrew wrote:

>Speaking personally I've always had a soft spot for TSR (a bog just
>outside Christchurch actually). But isn't this rather like Uncle Mo's
>Chocolate shop buying out Nestles?

More like a Columbian Cocaine Cartel buying out Nestles.  WotC is a
monster.. there are over a BILLION magic cards in print, along with
Netrunner, BattleTech, and their other projects, they are one of the players
in the industry.

I'm hoping that they give AD&D the shot in the arm it needs, both in writing
and looks.

What I really want is for WotC to buy out Palladium.. anybody remember the
whole Primal Order flap?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:54:19 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

At 10:18 PM 4/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>What an absolute crock!!  It is not obvious to me at all.  Every hear of
>brotherly love?  Or perhaps he love him like a father.  Love does not
>conotate sexual preference.  An I don't know where you are getting your
>information, but saying that that sexual preference is genetic is laughable.

As a bisexual man, who has known since I was 12, might I suggest that I
might know a little bit more about the subject?  There is plenty of evidence
that sexual orientation is geneticaly linked.  Studies of twins, for
example, show that in about 40% of the cases where on twin is gay, the other
will be also.  
There is no one factor that causes someone to beccome gay or bisexual, but
NOBODY chooses to be this way.  Never mind the fact that you wouldn't be
getting the right signals from a same sex partner, but why would anyone want
to be part of a minority that is deomnized on a daily basis.

> Nuff' said.

Too much said.

Sorry about the rant, and I didn't really mean to out myself on the TML, but
I've spent the last 10 years fighting exactly these misconceptions.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:57:31 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Infinity [NOISE]

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote something very interesting :

>        An introduction to Yet Another Jumspace Theory


>        The structure of the set of transfinite numbers reflects the
>physical reality. There is a bijection between the set of transfinite
>numbers and the set of physical spaces. Aleph-0 is associated to real space,
>while Aleph-n (for n>=1) corresponds to Jumpspace-n. Basically, the
>corresponding cardinal measures the possible "meta-quantum situations" that
>a particle can be in, in the corresponding space. A "meta-quantum situation"
>is a complete specification of energy level, probability distribution over
>location, and all other necessary physical characteristics.

So if I have correctly understood your theory, in real space (Aleph 0) the
particles can be in distinct energy level (as we know). And in Jspace 1
(Aleph 1) those particles can assume any level (As Aleph 1 is the number of
irrationnal numbers? Is it what you thought or am I to restricitve. If I'm
correct, the matter/energy should have different properties?


>        The lanthanum grid has the effect of exponentially increasing the
>variance of meta-quantum situations in the particles of a body. In the
>limit, the body cannot be contained in its space and so "jumps" into the
>appropriate one.

The regular view on the grid is that it protects the ship from the J-space
(IMHO again). In this case the inside of the ship is cannot be protected
from the effect. If it would be it couln't "Jump".


>        The set of transfinite numbers is discrete only if the continuum
>hypothesis is accepted. The discovery of jumpspace requires a deep
>understanding of the transfinite number theory. Those races who do not
>incorporate as an assumption the continuum hypothesis have failed to
>discover the jump-drive.

Interseting consequence...


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:17:04 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: [Sorry] and a question.

Solomani wrote:
> 
> Well it seems my poor grammer and spelling as well as my "die hard"
> arguing style has upset a lot of the members of this list, if I have upset
> you because of this, I'm sorry.  I did not realise that I had, nor was it
> my intention to do so.
> 
> --------------
Didn`t upset me,we racially pure Terrans have to stick together*grin*

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:16:00 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
> I'd expect rates of homosexuality to vary from 1-2% to 70%+ depending on
> the particular culture and planet.  Humans are pretty darn flexible wrt
> most behavior if there is enough cultural pressure.
> 
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
- ---Look at Joe Haldeman`s Forever War,by the end of it Humanity is
Homosexual to keep the birth rate down(if I remember correctly,I haven`t
read it in a while).Speaking of 3-5% of the population being Homosexual
reminds me of a survey I heard of,according to it 90% of women have
bi-sexual leanings(it didn`t mention men).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 11:18:19 +0200
From: Pablo Jaime Conill Querol <pconque@delta.cti.unav.es>
Subject: Life is hard in Traveller (and 2)

About tha games convertions i thought is not too much dificult to made. The
question is why did not the IG include something for use the MT Task System
and the T4 rules in the Deluxe Edition. I call everybody interested in
develop any conversions and send them to the list. I am developing mines.

And afterall rebember what Carlos used to say to us we we play MT (a lot of
years ago): Life is Hard in Megatraveller.
We will read.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Pablo Jaime -PJ- Conill Querol
C/ Monasterio de Iratxe, 49, 1=BAB
31011    Pamplona  SPAIN
e-mail: pconque@cti.unav.es

"When all your wishes are granted
 many of your dreams will be destroyed".
                           M.M.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:05:32 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Yes, I am a [NOISY] mathematician

>Are there any mathematicians on the list?
My BA is in mathematics from Trinity College Dublin.
Yes, there is more than one infinity, as described by the other
mathematicians on the list. Just lending my support to my comrades in
arms...

Another more interesting (relevant?) topic, has to do with another branch
of Mathematics that deals with random walks. In this there is a discrete
difference between 2D and 3D space.

If you have a 2D integral plane. Mark one spot as "the ship" and another as
the starting position for "The Drunken Sailor". Each move the drunken
sailor takes a step in one of four random directions. You can prove that,
given an infinate (aleph-0) amount of time, the sailor is garunteed to
eventually reach the ship.

If you have a 3D integral plane. And do it the same. You can prove that,
given an infinate (aleph-0) amount of time, the sailor is not garunteed to
eventually reach the ship.

There is no obvious or intuitive reason why.

Bad news for Voyager fans I guess :-)

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 11:28:55 +0200
From: Pablo Jaime Conill Querol <pconque@delta.cti.unav.es>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

        I beguin to play role with D&D, like lots of folks, that TSR in now
property of the people of WoTC F**Ks me a lot, because these people
introduced the cards in Spain, and for the people that plays role that was
really bad. In the RPG Conventions in Spain the only thig you can see in
people playing cards. The people now did not play role, they play cards,
because it need less time, is more visual, etc . Well the people is now
beguinig to play role again, the fever of the cards is decreasing, but not
too much.
The thing is that if TSR look a lot for the money, WoTC ONLY look for the
money. And i think is a bad problem. I am f***ed by this thing. Some of my
favourite days playing role have become playing AD&D.

We will read.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Pablo Jaime -PJ- Conill Querol
C/ Monasterio de Iratxe, 49, 1=BAB
31011    Pamplona  SPAIN
e-mail: pconque@cti.unav.es

"When all your wishes are granted
 many of your dreams will be destroyed".
                           M.M.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:12 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller 1950?  Hey, that's my idea!

Zane M. Healey wrote:

>
>Actually I LOVE the idea!  I'm one of those strange people that enjoy this
>kind of SF.  Might have something to do with reading to much "Tom Swift,
>Jr." when I was young.
>
>How about Traveller: 1950 where it's like they thought 1950 would be like
>back in the 40's?  Complete with "Wagon-Wheel" space stations.  A few years
>ago the Smithsonian did an exibite that would have made execellent source
>material for such a thing.
>
>The main problem I see is this might be hard to find players for.
>
>			Zane


	Hey... that's my idea!  I'm already working (or was before school
got in the way) on a timeline, and was planning on bashing out some designs
once I got out of school.  I'm planning on throwing in a really heavy Cold
War paranoia spin on it.

	I do have some preliminary timeline work done, up until the early
'50's.  If anyone wants to see them I can email/post them...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:27:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Laser USPs & THUDDD

OK,

In the April THUDDD some people used the TL 12 Heavy laser turret
from SSDS and came up with USPs of 1/6-5-3-2!!

By my calculations and according to the rules in SSDS, it should
come out to 1/2-1-0-0 for a single turret... what am I doing
wrong??
 (or, what are they doing wrong?)

Help!

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1212
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1213



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Norris' sexual orientation
re: Conservation
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1210
Starship Displacement Tonnage
Milieu:1889
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
even further off-topic Re: Gays in the Imperium
Re: All Tech Levels
RE: Norris' sexual orientation 
"Pacific" class MER boat
Ultimate Vehicle Design Workbook (a bit long)
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: High Guard/CT refueling tactics
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
sex (and why not)
Re: Norris Sexual Orientation
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:33:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

Quoth Douglas E. Berry:
> Sorry about the rant, and I didn't really mean to out myself on the TML, but
> I've spent the last 10 years fighting exactly these misconceptions.

Bully for you, Douglas!  After my loud and public tangle with "Solomani"
on what science is and whether it works, I thought I'd stay quiet on this
one...  but I'm glad to see others carrying forth the banner.

Wouldn't you think science-fiction readers and RPGers, if anyone, would be
more receptive to, if not joyous about, the differences within humanity?
I guess we have a ways to go until the 57th century....

- -- not part of "the family" myself, but in more than enough theatrical
   circles to know and respect folk for themselves and their actions,
   especially here in Texas (a hostile climate if ever there was one!),
   and if this isn't a long "sincerely" I've never seen one,

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:17:12 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Conservation

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote

>   Energy is /conserved/ in every reference frame, but it is not the
>   /same/ in every reference frame.

The point was - if you look at the equations - thurster plates don't conserve
energy in every reference frame...which is a big clue that they're
impossible.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:21:00 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1210

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> writes
>   You've got the right idea: photon drives.
The problem with that is that the efficiency is terrible; to accelerate a
100-DT starship at 1 G would require 3x10^15 watts, which is a bit much 
even for Traveller power plants. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:39:38 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Starship Displacement Tonnage

Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com wrote concerning displacement tonnages.

With his comments considered, are we creating Traveller starships with
unrealistic displacement tonnages?

Lets look at some ratios.

CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)

Ratio of dT  0.32

CT Merc Cruiser  800dt	WWII  CR   6500 - 15K dT  (11K dT  median)

Ratio of dT  0.12

CT BB/BR  50K dt?	WWII  BB  35K - 70K dT  (53K dT median)

Ratio of dT  0.94

Do we create a BB/BR closer to the CT Escort or Merc Cruiser ratios or should
the CE/MC be larger?

Personally, I like designing smaller ships and would recommend that a Traveller
BB/BR not be larger than 5000 dT which would be a ratio of 0.10.   This works
within the QSDS/SSDS lists I have seen on the web.  

Also, I assumed that Scottwas using metric tonnes of displacement.  Correct
me if I'm wrong.

Comments

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:31:45 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Milieu:1889

I was actually putting a campain idea to paper concerning a planet lost
during the Long Night.  The highest TL is 4, and maintained by an empire
based on the British Empire at it's hayday.  Big revolvers, bolt action
rifles, Zeppelins,  Lancers, and tea time.  Being a Solmani settled world,
the primary human population is decended from Indian Subcontinent.  The TL
2-3 kingdoms in wilds are made up of the pale skinned barbarians.

A fun place for Milieu:0 Scouts to land...


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"For the quickest descent into the ethical quagmire, the Clinton 
 administration has set a new indoor record." 
         (Howard Kurtz column, The Washington Post, 3/26/95)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:58:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Solomani wrote:

> 
> Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
> names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> 
This is based on nothing but pure conjecture, but perhaps the more 
beaurucratic and culturally stagnant didn't even name their star ships.

When you think about it, our habit of naming ships has no real practical 
purpose, and is pretty arbitrary. I mean, why name ships, but not cars or 
buildings (for the most part)?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:03:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

Quoth Leonard Erickson:
> >> v = (2Pt/m)^0.5
> 
> > Chepe, in what terms are you expressing v?  Meters per second?
> 
> Given the derivation, any consistent set of units. MKS, cgs, etc. 
> 
> 	MKS		cgs
> V = meters/second	cm/sec
> P = watts		ergs/sec
> T = seconds		sec
> M = kilograms		grams

Thanks, Leonard -- I hadn't gotten back to this yet.  Yeah, since I didn't
use any physical constants whatsoever in the derivation, you can use any
units you like as long as the dimensional analysis works out.  (Furlongs
per fortnight, anyone?)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:44:17 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:14:03 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> > > Just to set the record straight, I do not play D&D.  I don't like the
> > > rule mechanics and I don't like "science".
> > 
> > Just for the record, I do play D&D, and I think it is an incredible 
> > game--one of my favorites.
> 
> I just didn't want to come across as if AD&D was the bestest RPG in
> the universe.  I guess I should have emailed you my posting so that
> you could have taken the credit :P


Naw--just jump on the wagon.  It seems many on this list like to dog 
TSR.  I find that strange when D&D is the most successful RPG in 
history.

To tell you the truth, I never knew about a problem with them until I 
heard it here.  

D&D is near and dear to my heart.  Traveller is too, but I've got to 
tell you--I've never had the abundance of rules problems with D&D 
products that I have with IG.

To date, I'd say that TSR turns out more consistent, well designed 
products that have high production values than some of the expensive, 
bug ridden, overvalued stuff that I've bought from IG.

I've always felt that most of the Traveller products, for any 
edition,were not up to the standards of the stuff I purchased from 
TSR.  It wasn't until IG came along with T4 (and, with all my gripes, 
I thank God for that), that I felt I was getting ripped off buying a 
product.

There were very few times that I felt that way when I bought a D&D 
supplement.  With the 8 items that I've bought from IG so far, I feel 
that way about most of 'em.

These T4 things are just damn expensive.  I wouldn't mind the cost so 
much (although it should definitely be turned down because others 
aren't as tolerant as I am) if I felt that these were just fantastic 
products.  So far, I am only really excited about one--the EA, and 
although I do like it a great deal, the book is still pretty small 
for the close to 25 bucks I paid for it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

> > In the April THUDDD some people used the TL 12 Heavy laser turret
> > from SSDS and came up with USPs of 1/6-5-3-2!!
> > 
> > By my calculations and according to the rules in SSDS, it should
> > come out to 1/2-1-0-0 for a single turret... what am I doing
> > wrong??
> >  (or, what are they doing wrong?)
> 
> 	I think people combined multiple heavy turrets into a battery, 
> but I didn't look at the designs that closely so I could be wrong.

This got me to thinking... when creating a battery of turrets do you:

a) combine damage values from all the turrets and then produce a USP

or 

b) convert a single turret to USP values and then add the turrets
together?

basically, the way I read it is that if your individual turrets
have USPs like 1-1-0-0, they're never going to have anything
but 0's for the long/extreme ranges (or whatever they're called).

SSDS is a bit foggy on this point.. no, upon checking SSDS says
to do (b). Did some people do (a) ?

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:16:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

	hmmm. Well I must say that the discussion over whether Duke 
Norris is gay or not has actually been quite interesting. I like that the 
TNE writers put in these kind of ambiguities in the text (and now I'm 
really eager to finally read the Regency Sourcebook that some of you are 
getting your information from, since my mail-order 
copy is waiting for me at the post office! along with Lords of Thunder!) :-)

	but, i have to say (and I DON'T mean to insult anyone, and I 
certainly don't want to been seen to be telling anyone how to run their 
Traveller campaigns, because I'm not)...

	...in the Third Imperium I run when refereeing, homosexuality is an 
immoral sexual perversion that was eliminated thousands of years ago and 
has no place in a civilized 57th century society. Or it will be if the 
issue ever comes up (and it hasn't in over ten years of me running 
Traveller in one form or another).

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
(p.s. I'm certainly not telling anyone how to run their lives, sexually or 
otherwise. But don't tell me what I can or can't believe is immoral).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:49:44 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: even further off-topic Re: Gays in the Imperium

At 02:31 AM 4/17/97 -0400, Harold D. Hale wrote:
>John R. Snead writes: 
>   In the case of the ancient Greeks, it was not uncommon for an older
>man (30s-40s) to take on a young man (late teens) in a mentor role and
>for that relationship to become sexual.  The Spartans were known for
>their strict segregation of the sexes (husbands and wives did not
>routinely live together), and that homosexual relationships were very
>common, though Spartan warriors took wives just as other Greeks.  As for
>the Romans, the activities of the upper classes are well documented,
>though perhaps at times exaggerated (particularly Caligula's orgies). 
>Homosexuality was not a particularly big deal in pagan Rome, but as the
>Empire became a Christian one, attitudes changed.

As for the ancient Greeks, particularly the Stoics who are most commonly
the ones thought of with the man/boy relationship, I understand that a
great deal of the common belief about their cultural homosexuality is
overblown.  Just as homosexuality in other cultures used to be totally
ignored, recently it has been exaggerated.  I'm not a scholar of ancient
Greece, but from talking with people who are, it seems likely that their
incidence of homosexual behavior was not much different from our own (2-3%,
not 3-5% or 5-10%), and that it was tolerated in some sectors, but not as
openly as people have been made to believe.  I also learned (sorry for
being graphic) that the punishment for anal sex in at least some
parts/times of ancient Greece was to have a very large turnip shoved inside
you and pulled roughly out.  Often this killed the accused person.  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:11:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

Brody Dunn wrote....
"....I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
because theyt are so close...."

This was a point I brought up a couple of months ago and we hashed out here
on the TML. Marc Miller stepped in himself and said that it was up to the GM
to come up with a creative idea to explain what was going on. If we strictly
followed a pragmatic TL distribution it would not be as interesting as a
random distribution of TL. 

Ultimately, it's up to you what you want to do in your universe.

Well, at least to this heretic it is.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:18:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Subject: RE: Norris' sexual orientation 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11: 16:27 CDT
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:18:43 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@strauss2.udel.edu>

: 	...in the Third Imperium I run when refereeing, homosexuality is an 
: immoral sexual perversion that was eliminated thousands of years ago and 
: has no place in a civilized 57th century society. Or it will be if the 
: issue ever comes up (and it hasn't in over ten years of me running 
: Traveller in one form or another).

Personally, I like the Heavy Gear approach where they realized that
times are changin'.  Hey, 100 years ago, if you were black you were a
slave.  And up until 70 years ago, being a woman got you nothing.  I
think it's safe to say that in 100 years being gay will just be another
accepted fact of life.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:48:07 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: "Pacific" class MER boat

"Pacific" class Medical Emergency Rescue (MER) Boat

Mission: Small, high acceleration craft intended primarily for in-system
Medical Emergency Rescue and evacuation operations. Its modular
construction insures usefulness in a variety of missions. Some missions
require several of these vehicles with differing modules.

Form: 10 ton disp hull. One 2 ton mission module. Cylinder Streamlined
configuration, structurecomp structure material, Superdense armour.

Cost: MCr 15.71 loaded, including std. Emergency Low Berth Module.

Power: TL 12 Fusion+ 61.2 MW output, 300 hr endurance.

Performance: Thrusters. Accel. nearly 9.9 G fully loaded. Stacked grav
compensation 9 G's in 4 m3 cockpit/bridge area. Hull rated for 11 G. Can
achieve over 11 G when unloaded and module removed.

Comm:    1x TL12 far orbit Small Vehicle Maser
         1x TL12 orbital Radio
Sensors: 1x TL12 continental Radar

Crew: 2. Room for up to 4 in cockpit (cramped).
Passengers: 0 (but see SWIMs below)
Standard Life support for up to 1750 m3 (for attached rescue)

Options: 2x Emgcy Wall Patch-10, roadgrid, 1 Airlock w/ decontamination
showers, fire suppression.

Standard SWappable Internal Modules (SWIM's):

Emergency Low Berth SWIM     Mass: 14 t  Pwr: 2 kW    Cost: kCr 150

Cargo SWIM                   Mass: 5 t (empty)        Cost: kCr  90

Passenger SWIM (evac)        Mass: 10 t  Pwr: 2.4 MW  Cost: kCr 260
    (includes 6G-rated stacked comp. and seating for 24 persons)

"Hull Cracker" SWIM          Mass: 20 t? Pwr: 2 MW?   Cost: MCr 1.5??
    (this module uses plasma torches or somesuch to penetrate the hull,
I have no idea what the figures should be. Pure speculation. Ideas?)

Class Names: Pacific class MER boats are named for oceans and seas.
Typical names are Medeterranean, Atlantic, Ural, Gamiish, and Bob, named
for the Sea of Bob on a certain waterworld in the Solomani Rim. ;->

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:44:00 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Ultimate Vehicle Design Workbook (a bit long)

Greetings All!

I'm excited about how my Vehicle design workbook is coming along, so I
want to share it with TML'ers and solicit feedback. My workbook, which I
call the Traveller Vehicle Factory, is *more* than just a spreadsheet,
it includes Visual Basic macros and super-spiffy dialogs for
unparallelled design efficiency.

It requires a minimum of MS Excel version 5.0, I would also like to know
if it works as well on later verisons. Theoretically, it should work on
both PC and Mac platforms, but as I only have Mac version 4.0, I haven't
been able to check it on my home computer.

The Traveller Vehicle Factory hasn't yet been linked to my website; I'm
planning a massive overhaul of my site this weekend. However, the
pre-release zipped version is accessible via this URL:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/vfactory.zip

Use your favourite unzipping utility to expand it. (eg. winzip for PC or
unstuffit for Mac)

If you're still unconvinced, here's the Intro sheet from the workbook:

- ----begin quoted material----

Welcome to the Traveller Vehicle Factory!
v1.0a1 by Glenn Hoppe (jumpspace@geocities.com)

What It Is: Hopefully you'll find this workbook to be the easiest and
fastest way to design vehicles using Traveller Vehicle Design System
rules. The full rules for vehicle design can be found in the T4 Central
Supply Catalog.

Why Alpha? I'm calling this spreadsheet an "Alpha" release, not because
I consider it buggy, but because it is feature incomplete. (Or
alternatively, complete with undesired "features") I'm releasing it now
to solicit feedback, contructive criticism and hopefully praise and
encouragement, so that I can make this the best dang-gum tool to design
vehicles this side of Sylea.

Quick Start: Click on the Design tab below to bring up the Design
worksheet. There are grey buttons in Columns B & C which bring up
marvellous dialogs allowing you to enter vehicle component values
quickly and easily. As an added bonus, spreadsheet results are
(nearly)instantly updated once any part of the dialog is changed, so you
can experiment with values quickly and easily without ever having to hit
the "enter" key. Dialogs include way-cool drop-down menus, so all you
should have to type are the numbers.

I've used Excel's outlining capabilities to allow one to "zoom in" on
the individual component calculations, or "zoom out" to get the big
picture, and see all the subtotals at a glance. If you get confused,
just press that small "3" top left side of the sheet to see the whole
picture.

Some "Quirks" include:
  - The cancel button in vehicle component dialogs does not actually
cancel (yet). Be careful! Anything you change in the dialog takes effect
immediately, and your old value cannot be retrieved.
  - If a change is made "manually" in the pink areas of the design
spreadsheet, vehicle component dialogs do not update to show that these
changes were made (yet).
  - A lot of the dialog macros have the pink data positions "hard
coded". Use extreme caution when inserting cells, rows, columns, etc.
(Just don't do it. I'm considering resurrecting a more flexible design
from an old FF&S spreadsheet I made ages ago...)

Some other things that aren't yet done, and future ideas:
  - So far, there are design dialogs for the following components: Hull,
Power Plants, Propulsion, Communications, and Sensors. Other data needs
to be manually entered in pink areas of the spreadsheet.
  - Alternate dialogs: For example, a dialog that allows you to directly
enter armour values for each facing instead of armour thicknesses would
be cool.
  - Weapons! I haven't yet made a weaponry dialog.
  - Turrets: still working on that.
  - Modular components: You can specify that the hull is modular, so the
requisite structural costs are added, but specific components cannot be
made into a "module". I just enter the +10% volume and +50% cost in the
"Other" section of the sheet.
  - Vehicle database: My insidious plan to permanently keep vehicle
designs within the spreadsheet itself.
  - Summary/Export Functions: Have obvious value. Soon, yes, very soon.
  - Toolbars and/or menus: Once everything else is done, 
  - A multitude of other things I can't think of off the top of my head.

Shoulders of Giants...yadda yadda... The design of this workbook was
inspired by one I downloaded, which did not contain the contact info for
whoever created it. I hope that person doesn't mind that I filched his
data. I didn't see the point of starting from scratch, retyping all the
tables and re-inventing the wheel. If that person is reading this, drop
me a line, and I'll give credit where credit is due.

Hey this is way cool! Where's your QSDS design workbook!?!?
Patience, O Traveller. I want to get this one nice 'n shiny before
working on that (which I anticipate will actually be easier). Besides,
with wildstar working on QSDS v.2.0, why don't I wait for that?

The Fine Print(tm):
Traveller is a registered trademark of Imperium Games. Parts of this
workbook are copyright 1997 by Imperium Games. All Rights Reserved. This
workbook is to be distributed unmodified and free of charge. I shall not
be held responsible should this workbook cause loss of property, money,
time or sanity or any other quantifiable or qualifiable resource. Caveat
Emptor. E Plurbius Unum. Veni Vedi Vici. Si hoc legere scis nimium
eruditionis habes.

Current versions of this workbook and other Traveller stuff can be found
on the web:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:42:08 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:11:08 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> Brody Dunn wrote....
> "....I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
> Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
> because theyt are so close...."
> 
> This was a point I brought up a couple of months ago and we hashed out here
> on the TML. Marc Miller stepped in himself and said that it was up to the GM
> to come up with a creative idea to explain what was going on. If we strictly
> followed a pragmatic TL distribution it would not be as interesting as a
> random distribution of TL. 

This is one topic I'd like to see hashed out it a future IG release.
I'm not asking for answers, just a nice list of examples (possibly put
forward by referees on TML).

Another topic that sometimes comes up is extremely high-population
planets that shouldn't be able to exist under certain circumstances
(low tech-vacuum worlds, low land-to-hydrosphere ratio, etc.).  Again,
I am not looking for hard answers, just a list of good examples.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:05:24 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: High Guard/CT refueling tactics

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote concerning
High Guard Refueling Tactics.

During our playing sessions, the PCs developed a squadron tactic to
defend against low lying or dirt side SDBs and star side SDBs.  Yes,
these became known as Low Guard (a corollary to HG) and 
High Guard in the CT parlance.  IB the US Army uses the term 
"over watch" in regards to tactical tank movements and 
"bounding overwatch" in regards to infantry tactics.

This is what happens when you play with pilots, navigators coneheads 
and combat planners.

I think you've solved  the possible scenarios from a refueling aspect.

Sources of High Guard activity:   L4/L5 points (Greek and Trojan Belts),
nearby moons, nearby asteroid belts, and nearby planets in occlusion.

Sources of Low Guard activity:  dirt side oceans, mountains, ice caps of
standard planets.  Low lying SDBs within gas giants --  but I have always
had trouble with this one since I felt that the SBD/starship sensors would
be blinded by ion storms.

Comments

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:11:59 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

Carlos:

AAAAGGGGHHHH!

I concede that I only play with statistics and
higher levels of mathematical theory drive me mad!

AAAAGGGGHHHH!

And I thought I was having trouble when the risk
analysis professor gave us just ones and zeroes
for the theoretical parts of class!

AAAAGGGGHHHH!

Now I know why I'm a biologist - safety engineer!

AAAAGGGGHHHH!

(:-@

Eric                         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:15:06 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: sex (and why not)

> 
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:16:00 +0100
> From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
> Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium
> 
> John R. Snead wrote:
> > 
> > I'd expect rates of homosexuality to vary from 1-2% to 70%+ depending on
> > the particular culture and planet.  Humans are pretty darn flexible wrt
> > most behavior if there is enough cultural pressure.
> > 
> > -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
> - ---Look at Joe Haldeman`s Forever War,by the end of it Humanity is
> Homosexual to keep the birth rate down(if I remember correctly,I haven`t
> read it in a while).Speaking of 3-5% of the population being Homosexual
> reminds me of a survey I heard of,according to it 90% of women have
> bi-sexual leanings(it didn`t mention men).
Now I'm just guessing but this would be a study by Male doctors, no?

mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 20:08 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Norris Sexual Orientation

In-Reply-To: <3352C108.24B9@catt.com>

<< You never hear much from me until we start talking sex.

Damn... I feel like a perv. >>

I'll get you one.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 20:08 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

In-Reply-To: <33515431.15A4@hotstar.net>

<< Norris was not gay. The man was asexual in the extreme. His life was 
his people. 
The basis for this was his lack of a sex life detailed in TNE. >>

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 20:09 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9704141104.A18033-0100000@netcom9>

<< My only question is whether there is a similarly nifty way to do visual
output? Audio output can be handled through a medium-sized earring with a
bone conduction speaker (on the back of the earring where it touches the
head. But I can see any) way to do visual output w/o screens or
holofields. >>

RGB lasers projecting it directly onto the retina.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:31:28 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

Ethan Henry wrote:

>
>In the April THUDDD some people used the TL 12 Heavy laser turret
>from SSDS and came up with USPs of 1/6-5-3-2!!
>
>By my calculations and according to the rules in SSDS, it should
>come out to 1/2-1-0-0 for a single turret... what am I doing
>wrong??
> (or, what are they doing wrong?)

	Well, I was in a hurry, so I based my SSDS 251 Mj laser USP rating
on J_Lambert's in the tREC, entry, which was done in James Dempsey's
SSDS-Calc...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1213
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1214



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Question: Dampers vs. Sandcasters
Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD
Re: Gays in the Imperium
Isp values?
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: Racism,  Sexism and the Third Imperium
[none]
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
1889 drives
Re: Gays in the Imperium
Re: The low-tech 6th millennium
[T97#1200] Q-Ships
Strange Tech Combos
Re: Racism and Sexism
Ringworld, the Movie
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
And now for something completely different...
RE: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 20:08 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

In-Reply-To: <199704141657.LAA29151@bermuda.io.com>

<< > The computer hears the speech you're listening to, same as you.

But what if I'm a professional listening to a lecture on, say, new
technology, ways of doings things, new theories, what have you, the sort
of thing likely to spark lots of independent ideas in my own head?  Unless
we're postulating telephathic computers, it's _not_ going to pick up on
those, and I will darn well want to strike while the iron is hot and get
those ideas down in some sort of permanent form for later review.  I don't
want to have to say them, lest I distract others (or allow them to steal
my concepts!), and, again, I don't want to use my own respiratory tract
lest I interfere with my own listening.  So how do I note down my
inspirations? >>

You have an electronic notepad, say A5 size, maybe 5mm thick. Might fold 
up smaller. As the lecturer talks, it hears the speech and displays it in 
real time. You want to add notes? Simply write them in the margin, same as 
people have done for 100s of years.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Question: Dampers vs. Sandcasters

  Pardon me for showing yet again my ignorance of military-ship style
combat (my games all centered on trade and the players were lucky if their
ship even _had_ a turret, let alone a laser to put in it), but I was
wondering if anyone could elighten me as to the comparitive advantages and
disadvantages of sandcasters versus laser turrets.  In the most recent
THUDDD, some designs have one, some the other, some both.  Any insight
from the boom-boom boys and girls out there?  I want to be as fair as i
can when I vote.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:38:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

> > a) combine damage values from all the turrets and then produce a USP
> > or 
> > b) convert a single turret to USP values and then add the turrets
> > together?
> > 
> > SSDS is a bit foggy on this point.. no, upon checking SSDS says
> > to do (b). Did some people do (a) ?
> 
> 	You're _supposed_ to do (a)!  I haven't read SSDS lately but I 
> remember that when we were writing it that that was the intention.  If 
> you like, email Wildstar & Dave Golden on this -- they're the authorities.

Oh! Geez. Well, OK, that makes more sense, but, just to check,
the copy of SSDS I have says:

Once the weapon is converted to USD values, multiply the USD values by the 
number of weapons in the battery. Add a Rate of Fire modifier as follows: 
If the weapon has a Rate of Fire less than 100, no modifier. For
ROF of 100, +1; for ROF of 200, +2; for ROF of 400, +3; for ROF of 800, +4. 
Note that the ROF bonus cannot be greater than the battery's current damage 
rating (i.e. a weapon that converts to 2-0-0-0, with a ROF of 800,
only gets a +2 bonus at short range and no bonus beyond that: 4-0-0-0).

which is, I suppose, wrong. Grumph.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:42:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Harold D. Hale wrote:

> John R. Snead writes: 
> 
> >All this talk of 3-5% of the population being gay is fine for cultures
> >just like our own.  There are lots of worlds in the Imperium which may
> >be quite different.  Look at classical Greece and Rome, most men were
> >expected to be homosexual (and many women were too).  Similarly, in the
> >19th century navy and merchant marine male homosexuality was quite >common.
> 
>    Well actually you have to differentiate between being homosexual (or
> bisexual) and committing a homosexual act.  Many people who are not gay
> experiment sexually, particularly when they are young.  
> 
>    In the case of the ancient Greeks, it was not uncommon for an older
> man (30s-40s) to take on a young man (late teens) in a mentor role and
> for that relationship to become sexual.  The Spartans were known for
> their strict segregation of the sexes (husbands and wives did not
> routinely live together), and that homosexual relationships were very
> common, though Spartan warriors took wives just as other Greeks.  As for
> the Romans, the activities of the upper classes are well documented,
> though perhaps at times exaggerated (particularly Caligula's orgies). 
> Homosexuality was not a particularly big deal in pagan Rome, but as the
> Empire became a Christian one, attitudes changed.
>  
>    As for 19th century sailors, being without female companionship for
> months at a time in close quarters tends to make the guy in the next
> bunk start to look pretty good (particularly when you haven't taken a
> vow of celibacy).  This also explains to a degree the amount of
> homosexual activity in prisons.
> 
>    I would say an average for a truly gay population would be around 2
> percent, though the percentage engaging in homosexual acts could range
> from 0 to 100 percent depending on the culture, government, law levels,
> etc.

Well, Actually, you have to differentiate between being heterosexual (or
bisexual) and committing an heterosexual act (or, in the case of 20th
century western culture, putting on a heterosexual act).  Many people who
are not 'het' experiment sexually, particularly when they are young.

Seriously, there is a large hidden gay population in the United States
(as an example).  Many folks who grew up in a time and place (like now,
here) where a particular behavior was viewed as unacceptable,
contemptable, disgusting and/or immoral found ways of hiding that behavior
from others.

We in this country have failed to make the facts sexual orientation
acceptable in the culture at large in general as evidenced by the Defense
of Marriage Act.

In The Imperium each world will have its own prejudices which may be
similar or opposite or just different from our own.  Encounters in the
cosmopolitan spaceports, however, might be with same sex partners or
opposite sex partners, or perhaps non-humans (or humans!) with a
completely different sexuality alltogether!  It is clear, however, that
local culture will make a judgement about what is acceptable sexually.

My wife and I once attended a March on Washington for Homosexual rights,
it was a context where we both felt rather uncomfortable expressing our
heterosexuality in public, so we "closeted" that part of ourselves. A very
interesting experiment, glad I don't have to live like that.

Pete

 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:50:04 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Isp values?

I once ran across a list of Isp values for current real tech, as well as
some theoretical tech, such as fusion rockets and photon drives, but
neglected to bookmark it.

Anyone know here such a list might reside?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:40:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Russell <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Eric Holmes wrote:

> Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com wrote concerning displacement tonnages.
> 
> With his comments considered, are we creating Traveller starships with
> unrealistic displacement tonnages?
> 
> Lets look at some ratios.
> 
> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)

In WWII, the displacement was measured by water, not Lhyd.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:36:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Russell <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Racism,  Sexism and the Third Imperium

> In the Third Imperium is there racism, sexism, anti-gay, anti-anythings 
> still left?  Of course, we know about anti-Vargr sentiment, and that the 
> Solomani hate anything not Solomani, but is there the same sorts of 
> problems we have today?
> 
Simple rule, if someone has a reason to hate, whether or not the reason is
valid, and if they are stupid enough to not see through their own
hollowness, then they will hate.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:10:35 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: [none]

>Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:12:29 +0200
>From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
>Subject: Re: Infinity [NOISE]

>>From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>

>>As I understand it, all examples of a particular infinity are equal.  So,
>>there are as many points between 1 and 2 as there are between 4 and 6.
>>Are there any mathematicians on the list?
>
>        I asked recently the same question. From the answers I got, yes, a
>grand total of TWO mathematicians by degrees (Scott Ellsworth and me),
>although three more people wished to be counted as half-mathematicians...

Though this was heading towards the area of mathematics I never studied.  I
was more a computational physicist, who ended up doing graduate work in
numerical analysis and thence Industrial Engineering.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:44:15 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

After this comes a plea for greater care in proposing nonsense tech.

>Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:15:32 +1000 (EST)
>From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
>On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:
>> > environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
>> > and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
>> > observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.
>> 
>> Correct.  But science further demands that we continue to test, poke,
>> and prod, until there is NO DOUBT left in the "theory".  Only then is
>> it considered "fact".  Aristotle did not have this thoroughness.
>
>Which is impossible, so your definition fails.  How can you determine for
>sure (100%) that something is right?

Experiment - something is treated as "right" to the extent that it does not
break existing data, and that it makes useful predictions about new data.
A key part of this is that data is considered important.  To the extent
that the process allows experimentation to even theoretically judge the
results of the theory, it is science, and allows the scientific method.

This is why Aristotle was taught about as an important precursor to the
modern scientist in my history of science class, but the instructor made a
point about him not being a scientist in the present sense.  Aristotle
believed that observation was inferior to insight, and thus that the answer
which was theoretically superior was the better answer.  I was not terribly
fond of his philosophy, but that is an area where there is little
observational data, and so whether they are correct or not is not really a
matter for scientific inquiry at this time.

When you can measure ethics, then we might see a scientific theory of it.

[England - white swans.  Australia - black swans.]
>Law broken.

Nope.  Law refined to cover a larger domain.  If you were doing science,
you would have included on some level where the observations took place.
You might not have stated all such preconditions explicitly in the original
discussion, but anyone looking would realize where the observations
happened.  Further, what is an unstated assumption is cultural, but the
existence of it and its ability to be challenged by new data is part of
what is presently called the scientific method.

The stated theory becomes "all English swans are white."

>You can never ever have "NO DOUBT".  Nothing is for sure.  You can get
>something to a workable point, but thats it.  Thats my only beef, everyone
>who has responded so far except for one other poster thinks science cant
>be "wrong", its infalliable.  Well, surprise surprise it CAN be wrong.
>That above example about the swans is a real life one.

I believe that might be a straw man argument. Finding a black swan in
Australia does not suddenly add any to the previous area of observation in
England, which is what your original argument implied.  This is a sign that
the problem domain was expanded overmuch.

"Science" can not be wrong as long as the data has been carefully
evaluated, but a given theory can give incorrect results.  (I am assuming a
reality-driven world view.  If your metaphysics says that the world is an
illusion, then you may bow out of the discussion of science now.  I have my
own personal metaphysics, but metaphysics is a domain where physics need
not apply.)

A scientific theory that is giving bad predictions can be based on bad
data, which is caught by good data.  It can be applied to domains where it
does not apply, which will produce bad results, but the concept is not
"wrong", and you should really use the previous data in formulating a new
theory which simplifies to something like the old theory when observing
previous domains.

Even if you think you are in such a domain, you had best be careful before
ruling out science as "wrong."

For example, we know fairly well how light is focused.  No possible
technology is going to come along and change that without having wide
reaching effects.  If you want to propose one, go ahead.  Traveller did
with gravitic focusing.  It means that traveller sensors become much more
interesting, and one has to ask whether gravitic focusing can be detected,
and how this impacts other sensors.

Active sensors become much more feasible at long range if you can
arbitrarily drop a factor of r out of a bunch of equations.

So, you are left with believing that what we now know is correct to the
extent of our instruments, and thus proposing any new ideas along with at
least an implicit statement about what kind of data might have shown the
error of our current theory.  If you want to add antigravity, think about
why we have not seen evidence of it so far, and make that part of the
statement.  

>> [SNIP]
>> 
>> > Why such stabs at my education and character?  I havnt shown you any
>> > disrespect.  What, am i getting a bit close to the truth am i?  Starting
>> > to feel a sting are you?

>> > Well, ive never had an email kill file before, but i think i'll make one
>> > and add you to it "Mr. Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  GURPS fan, Amiga user,
>> > Shakespearean scholar, actor and director."
>> 
>> How can you debate with people if all those who offend you are
>> immediately placed in your Kill File?
>
>I dont do that, I just dont like being attacked for no reason, nor do I
>like "Shakespearen scholars" writing me off when they seemingly dont know
>what there talking about.  It's just that conceited self-rightousness gets
>me.

T'aint for no reason.  Your posts do often use nonstandard definitions.  A
few of these are expected, and will be picked up from context.  Enough of
them, and you get a large number of flames, and a bunch of waste heat
because people do not know what you are talking about.  The solution is
simple - figure out what it is about the posts that generate high heat, and
decide either to alter that, or live with the results.

As long as you are going to make stabs about Shakespearean scholars,
combined with an aggressive high heat argumentation style, you are going to
get contempt.  About half of my senior year physics class was in a
production of Macbeth at HMC, and a number of them considered themselves
Shakespearean scholars of a kind.

>> Michl, or Solomani, or whatever... /please/ look over your postings
>> before you hit the "SEND" button.  It will save us all a lot of grief.
>> The rest of us on the list cannot *debate* with you if we cannot
>> *understand* you.
>
>If by understand you mean my grammar, I am sorry if that has prevented you
>from understanding me.  I normally do not consider Emails of such import
>that I make an effort to correct/check myself.

Do it.  You are taking up our time to read what you say.  If it is worth
taking our time to read, then it is worth taking your time to read it over
and perhaps spell check it.  Read it two or three times, and perhaps even
read it again an hour after you write it before sending it.  You might be
surprised at how much better the text becomes after the second draft.

This does not mean that spelling flames are a great idea, merely that it is
worth spending a few moments so that disagreements are going to be over
what you meant, not what you said.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:50:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: 1889 drives

Some persons have been talking about a SPACE:1889 game.  It is very
fascinating and the ideas have been just great.  I have read a little about
the game in Challenge magazines, but don't have it.  If one of the people on
the list that knows about the game could help me out a bit, I'd appreciate it. 

If you could tell me a few things about the game, like:

- -what propells space craft??  How do they startravel, as opposed to space
travel??
and
- -What is the scope of the game??  where does it take place? on just Mars and
earth?

anything else would be just great.

thanks in advance,

Jeff Brawley
brawleyj@uwstout.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

>All this talk of 3-5% of the population being gay is fine for cultures
>just like our own.  There are lots of worlds in the Imperium which may 
>be quite different.  Look at classical Greece and Rome, most men were
>expected to be homosexual (and many women were too). 

I would say bisexual, not homosexual or else there would have been no 
more of them. 

 Similarly, in the
19th century navy and merchant marine male homosexuality was quite 
common.

I'd say this has more to do with being at sea more than on land.  There 
were, of course, no women on those ships.  This was much like a prison 
situation and more a way to escape your raging hormones than being 
homosexual.  

>Take a look at books about homosexuality in history (there are many) or
>works like Bujold's _Ethan of Athos_ which describes an all male, all 
>gay,planet which reproduces through artificial wombs.

An interesting point.  I've had a lesbian couple in my game which had 
children in the same fashion.  With the many worlds of the Imperium ( and 
no doubt the Solomani as well ) there has to be a world somewhere where 
this is the fashion.  Could lead to some interesting problems for 
homophobic PC's to be on a planet which demands homosexuality of them 
much as many of our societies have demanded heterosexuality.

- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:13:03 +0100
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The low-tech 6th millennium

California?????
What the hell does that place look like?
I have got my Regina, Rhylanor, et alia off to a tee....but
California......
that's beyond my limits....


Del Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

- ----------
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
<snip> 
> So, yes, it's absurd that the Third Imperium looks so
much like California
> ca. 1997.  But there's no real choice in the matter.
> 
>
- ------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
>  --*--    Home Page:
http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild:
http://www.hwg.org/   
>        "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 17:12:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: [T97#1200] Q-Ships

  I happen to like the Q-Ship concept, but as far as naming
  goes, I handle it slightly differently:

  When naming a _class_ of Q-ships, one uses the Q-name of the
  class followed by (parenthesized) the name of the simulated
  class, and the same type code as the simulated class prefixed
  by "Q". So, a Q-Ship emulating the Empress Marava class A2 Far
  Trader, with a real class name of "Vice Squad" would be

  Vice Squad (Empress Marava) class Anti-Piracy Enforcer (QA2).

  Individual ships in the class would carry two names, one for
  the actual class and one for the simulated class.  While
  "running deep" (i.e., in simulation mode, to lure a pirate),
  they run the simulated class ID; when they "go live", they
  switch to the Q ID - so the Vice Squad would run deep as the
  Empress Marava, but would run the Vice Squad ID when it went
  live.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 17:12:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Strange Tech Combos

  I do weird things sometimes.  Like read SF and Fantasy.  My
  current reading project is "Thieves' World", and that follows
  hard on the heels of "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!".  They
  got me thinking:

  Just what is startown like on various worlds - especially the
  pre-starflight-tech worlds?  What kind of unusual combinations
  of tech will one encounter (for example - in "Tunnel", one
  will find nuclear-powered railroad engines (on certain crack
  luxury trains, like the Flying Cornishman), but "Babbage
  (misspelled as "Brabbage") Engines" are still experimental -
  and thoroughly mechaniwockle, not electronic.  Cunard runs a
  brand new transatlantic aircraft that is reminiscent of its
  oceangoing steamships in terms of luxury (staterooms and
  salons, not just seats) - fueled by coal dust - but there are
  nuclear powered submarines.  The final cut between two
  sections of the Tunnel is made by laser - and the upper class
  travels through the streets of London in carriages with
  carriage drivers (as though they were horse drawn, though it's
  not clear whether they are or not))?  What kind of people will
  you encounter?  Is startown more like New York or Sanctuary?
  Or does it depend on how heavy the traffic is?

  Discussion?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Walt Disney is in suspended animation.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:23:25 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Racism and Sexism

>When you say "In the Third Imperium" do you mean opinions held by people
>and governments on planets within the Third Imperium or do you mean
>opinions held by the Imperial government itself ?  These are not the
>same question.

>I think that the short version of the answer is that many planets do
>have some predjudices, some planets are very predjudiced, and some
>planets are unpredjudiced.  The people from these planets tend to hold
>similar opinions but if & when they enter Imperial Military service they
>will probably be tought that these differences are unimportant.

Actually, I was looking for opinions on both, but I appreciate your pointing this out.
I'd agree that diffierent cultures would view things differently, but how does the 
Imperial military feel about homosexuality or bisexuality?  Indeed, do they, as you put 
forth, care about it?  

>South African style racism will probably be the most uncommon type of
>racism out there however.  Most members of the Third Imperium are from a
>blend of Solomani and Vilani stock.  Vilani are rather dark skinned, and
>most Solomani are not caucausian either. Therefore most Imperials
>_are_not_white_ (although this would be more apparent if more art from
>CT & MT was color rather than black & white.  Since most people in the
>Imperium will be dark skinned they are unlikely to have South African
>views.

Understood.  Is it however different for the Solomani of "pure bred stock" ( for lack 
of a better term )?  Indeed is there such a thing.  Solomani/Aslan seems to hint that 
there are such things ( the Dootchen Estates ( South African Whites ), the Grand United 
States of Quesada ( Hispanics ), the New Slavic Solidarity, etc. ). Is this purely a 
cultural choice or do these Solomani states consist of peoples that are more true to 
their backgrounds?


>Well I think that hatred of some races (I won't name any names but these
>massive herbivores inhabit an area known as the 2000 Worlds...) is in
>fact a good idea that should be encouraged.  
>  The most common
>type of anti alien discrimination will probably be _True_ however and
>will thus be valid.
> I think that anyone who is going to deal with a Vargr needs to
>understand Vargr psychology but the level of popular understanding of
>Vargr psychology will not necessarily be much above that of racist (but
>somewhat true) slogans such as "You can't ever trust a Vargr because
>they will betray you." or "Vargr workers are more trouble than they are
>worth because they are always so pushy towrds you."

However, how many other racist comments could the average human come up with against the 
K'kree or the Vargr involved?  Are people making off-color jokes about the Vargr in the 
Imperium?  It would seem a culturally Imperial Vargr in the Imperium would face an 
uphill struggle against just the sort of racism we're discussing.

>For example in my Third Imperium the Darmine human race have an both a
>very high incidence of bisexuality and homosexuality and a polytheistic
>religion one of whose primary (and annoying) tenants is the
>numerological belief that anything that happens in fours is significant.

This sounds wonderful :)  Is there anything written up on this race?  I'd love to see 
something on it.


- - 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:28:06 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Ringworld, the Movie

Hot on the heels of the soon-to-be Starship Troopers disaster, yet
another of my favorite novels is about to be mutilated by Hollywood!
Have a look at this, hot off the Reuters newsline:

HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - "Ringworld," the best-selling trilogy written and
created by sci-fi master Larry Niven, is being developed as a feature film
by Quincy
Jones' production company.

QDE Entertainment, which the producer/composer runs with David Salzman,
bought the rights for undisclosed terms. They next will look for a writer
and director to
adapt and develop the project.

"Ringworld" is the story of a small group of both alien and human
adventurers who are hired to explore an artifact discovered deep in outer
space. The artifact is a
great ring, the size of the Earth's orbit around the sun, with an inner
surface more than 300 million times the size of earth. The adventurers set
out to discover what
kind of being could have built the outerworld.

"'Ringworld' has all the elements for an incredible action-packed feature
experience, great characters, a riveting story, and tremendous science
fiction action," said
Joel Simon, president of QDE Motion Pictures.

Plans are to establish a licensing and merchandising program for the
project and its characters. The characters also appear in other Niven
books. The "Ringworld"
trilogy has more than 7 million copies in print.

Reuters/Variety

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:51:09 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

 
> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)

"Real" traveller destroyers are 1000-10,000 dtons.

> CT Merc Cruiser  800dt	WWII  CR   6500 - 15K dT  (11K dT  median)

Cruisers are 20,000-100,000 dtons in CT.  The classes below 1000
tons in all published traveller stuff is goofy compared to things
like Sup. 9 from CT.
 
> CT BB/BR  50K dt?	WWII  BB  35K - 70K dT  (53K dT median)
 
A BB in CT is over 100,000 dtons.  Small ones might be 200,000
dtons, while serious opes are 500,000 or 700,000 dtons.
 
> Do we create a BB/BR closer to the CT Escort or Merc Cruiser ratios or should
> the CE/MC be larger?

Anything below 1000 tons is a "boat" in modern terms.  At most
something like a coast guard cutter.
 
> Also, I assumed that Scottwas using metric tonnes of displacement.  Correct
> me if I'm wrong.
 
Dunno, but the values I posted above are CT and later traveller ;-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:58:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: And now for something completely different...

No gay 8G fighters dropping relatavistic Aristotlean hamsters on the TL-3 
Patrol cruisers, but....

My redesigned web pages are up (ta-da) and will be added to in the future
on a more, uhh, timely basis (ie: my section on Traveller no longer says
anything about GDW recently going under, and this unknown company IG that
has taken over ;-) 

Traveller stuff is at:

<http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/traveller.html>

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:43:12 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

On Thursday, April 17, 1997 1:09 PM, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9704141104.A18033-0100000@netcom9>
> 
> << My only question is whether there is a similarly nifty way to do visual
> output? Audio output can be handled through a medium-sized earring with a
> bone conduction speaker (on the back of the earring where it touches the
> head. But I can see any) way to do visual output w/o screens or
> holofields. >>
> 
> RGB lasers projecting it directly onto the retina.
> 
>     ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
> Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/

This is currently under development at the University of Washington's
Human Interface Technology Lab (HITL).  Check it out!
http://www.hitl.washington.edu

Jeffrey

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1214
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 17 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1215



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1889 drives
Re: All Tech Levels
CSC vs Emperor's Arsenal
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD
Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Negative matter, was RE: Tech Talk
Re: sex (and why not)
sex (and why not)
Re: Gays in the Imperium
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: Gays in the Imperium
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
RE: All Tech Levels
RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage
RE: All Tech Levels
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:53:18 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 1889 drives

At 03:50 PM 4/17/97 -0600, you wrote:

>If you could tell me a few things about the game, like:
>
>-what propells space craft??  How do they startravel, as opposed to space
>travel??

Her Majesty's Vessels travel the Ether by Means of a Fascinating Engine, A
collection of Steam Boilers that in turn power the Ether Propellers.

As yet, no one has Endeavoured to Reach forth to the Neighbouring Stars.

>-What is the scope of the game??  where does it take place? on just Mars and
>earth?

A wide Variety of Actions and Plots may be followed by the Intrepid
Adventurer on Mars, Venus, Earth, and even the fair Moon, rumored home of
the Mysterious Selenites.

God Save The Queen!

Captain D.E. Berry,
Master, HMS Crown Royal
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:39:06 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:11:08 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
> 
> > Brody Dunn wrote....
> > "....I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
> > Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
> > because theyt are so close...."


I don't see the problem with having high tech systems next to low 
tech systems.

I mean, we're talking about solar systems here, and a parsec is a 
long way away even given the technology and drives in Traveller.

Communicators can't reach that far on any practical level, and in a 
lot of cases, the next parsec might as well be on the other side of 
the Imperium.

We see this type of dichotomy in a lot of real life areas on 
even much smaller scales.

Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different 
tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same 
contintent.

States here in the US are like that too.  Texas is pretty prosperous, 
as states go, but it borders two of the poorest states in the 
country--Louisiana and Arkansas.

Or, how about cities that are close to each other.  Take Houston and 
Galveston, for instance, or Houston and Baytown--we're talking two 
different worlds.

I bet that you can even pick out a section in your city that is like 
this.

Here in Houston, one of the richest parts is River Oaks.  That's 
one of the places where the money is here in town.  If you saw Terms 
of Endearment, or the recent sequel, The Evening Star, you'll see 
some of it.

But if you go four blocks away from River Oaks, you'll run into one 
of the oldest and poorest sections of Houston--the Fifth Ward.

If you keep looking, you can continue to see more examples like 
this, and, citing this,  I don't think it is strange at all to have 
a very high TL star system right next door to a very low TL star 
system.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:14:14 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: CSC vs Emperor's Arsenal

Looking at the weapons in Emperor's Arseal and CSC, I find that
the two do not match up.  Do the two books just use different 
sets of weapons, or is one wrong?  Can somebody with 3G3 figure
this out?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:54:50 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 03:56 PM 4/17/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
> >names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> >have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> 
> giskharshaza
> isiishurka
> ansasish
> karar
> urgi
> 
> They are in Vilani after all...

Thats what I was after, did you just grab a Vilani dictionary?  I do not
have access to one.  Thanks.


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Profanity is the device that makes ignorance audible.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 97 09:44:22 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Subject: Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

- --smxr-97041809415814129
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Ethan Henry said:
     
> This got me to thinking... when creating a battery of turrets do you:
> a) combine damage values from all the turrets and then produce a USP 
> or 
> b) convert a single turret to USP values and then add the turrets together?
     
>basically, the way I read it is that if your individual turrets 
>have USPs like 1-1-0-0, they're never going to have anything
>but 0's for the long/extreme ranges (or whatever they're called).
     
>SSDS is a bit foggy on this point.. no, upon checking SSDS says 
>to do (b). Did some people do (a) ?
     
        You are right, SSDS does say (b), however it is wrong. Wildstar, in 
one of his Traveller Answers corrected it, saying that method (a) should be 
used. He also added in some corrections for the rate of fire modifiers for 
lasers etc.
     
        This is on my SSDS errata page 
[http://www.spirit.net.au/_jamesd/Trav/SSDS/Eratta.html with a tilde before the 
jamesd], however, the new ROF modifiers (-1 for ROF 10) isn't there. SSDSCalc 
also calculates weapon ratings using the corrected method, so Roderick's laser 
array is correct.
     
Bye,
James Dempsey
jamesd@spirit.com.au (home)
james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au (work)

- --smxr-97041809415814129
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit


- --smxr-97041809415814129--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:04:30 -0400
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

In computing the USPs for my laser batteries, I followed the clarified SSDS
procedure provided by James Dempsey at his web site:
1) Multiply the listed weapon damage by the number of weapons [in the
battery]
2) Convert the damage value to a USP rating
3) Add in any rate of fire bonus, remembering not to add in more than the
existing value

For an SSDS TL12 251 Mj laser, the damages at the four ranges is: 40, 33,
17, and 8. (For the ROF of 10 there are no bonuses.)
A single laser turret would have a USP of   /2-1-0-0 .
A battery with ten of these lasers would have damage values of: 400, 330,
170, and 80. (Still no ROF bonuses.)
The battery would have a USP of  /9-8-5-3 .

Adding the damage values of the lasers makes sense. Adding the USPs (which
are logarithmic), overrates the short range effects and minimizes the long
range effects.

Hope this helps or at least explains what I did. It makes more sense than
the Starships instructions.

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:23:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Solomani wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
> > names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> > have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> > 
> This is based on nothing but pure conjecture, but perhaps the more 
> beaurucratic and culturally stagnant didn't even name their star ships.

This is a good point, and it did occur to me, but I thought it would be
boring.  Not having the honour of living during the first Imperium I could
only compare the Vilani to the Solomani and assumed that at some point in
there history when they were a little more dynamic that they did name
there sea ships and continued this tradition into space.

Also, if we take your assumption, then why did they name there worlds?
With such a vast Empire why didnt they just use numbers/letters like
LV4226?  Im basing this on the names in the upper part of the Solomani Rim
which (some) are definetly not of Terran Origin.

Comments?

> 
> When you think about it, our habit of naming ships has no real practical 
> purpose, and is pretty arbitrary. I mean, why name ships, but not cars or 
> buildings (for the most part)?
> 
> K.C. Komosky
> umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
> 
> 


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Profanity is the device that makes ignorance audible.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:22:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

In a message dated 97-04-17 14:34:45 EDT, you write:

<< There is no one factor that causes someone to beccome gay or bisexual, but
 NOBODY chooses to be this way.  Never mind the fact that you wouldn't be
 getting the right signals from a same sex partner, but why would anyone want
 to be part of a minority that is deomnized on a daily basis.
  >>
I agree, I never said that I was for or against homosexual lifestyle. I
wouldn't bother me a bit if he was gay or bi, but because a person didn't
marry and had strong feelings toward another person of the same sex is
automatically assumed to be gay bothers me.   It also bothers me that someone
would say that because one's father or mother is gay that it is a damn good
chance that the child will turn out to be gay.  How many of those gay twins
had gay parents?  Bet you won't find a significant correlation there.  Fact
is nobody knows why certain people turn out to be gay.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:19:14 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: Negative matter, was RE: Tech Talk

On Wednesday, April 16, 1997 8:38 AM, Nick
Munn[SMTP:N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk] wrote:
> >> So, tell us how we pull off reactionless STL...and don't blow
> >> Conservation^3?
> >
> >First you take a chunk of negative mass matter (negamatter). Since it
> >has negative mass, pushing on it makes it move closer, pulling on it
> >makes it move away. This is *not* antimatter.
> 
> [rest of solution deleted]
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that negametter is what is sometimes called 
> exotic matter, i.e. matter with negative energy? (E=mc^2 would imply 
> so...)
> 
> If so, negamatter can also be used to create a real, 
> honest-to-goodness FTL drive -- it's used to warp spacetime such that 
> the ship travels locally STL, but FTL w.r.t. the rest of the 
> universe.
> 
> Conservation of canon and conservation of playability are more or 
> less obeyed.
> 
> Nick
> 
> Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

Interesting side note.  Recently I attended Norwescon 20 (the Pacific
Northwest SciFi convention) and the Science guest of honor was Dr.
Robert Forward (Larry Niven was GoH -- *drool*).  Dr. Forward ran a
panel on "Current Physics" that I attended.  Among the many topics that
were discussed was the fact that there are *no* laws of physics that
preclude the existance of negative matter. 

And then there are these giant 'voids' in space.  Places where there are
few to no galaxies.  All of the bright matter in the universe (stars,
galaxies, clouds of hydrogen) are strung out along the edge of these
voids.  Now of course the mutual gravitational attraction of matter
could explain this peculiar pattern of clumping, however...

What if, along with all of the bright and dark positive matter, an equal
amount of negative matter.  Negative matter exerts a gravitational
repulsion on everything around it--pushing away the bright positive
matter and ends up clumping together, but not shining because it repels
even itself.  So, the voids between the clusters of galaxies are filled
with clouds of negative matter.

Wierd, eh?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:25:39 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: sex (and why not)

mark.wilkin wrote:
> > - ---Look at Joe Haldeman`s Forever War,by the end of it Humanity is
> > Homosexual to keep the birth rate down(if I remember correctly,I haven`t
> > read it in a while).Speaking of 3-5% of the population being Homosexual
> > reminds me of a survey I heard of,according to it 90% of women have
> > bi-sexual leanings(it didn`t mention men).
> Now I'm just guessing but this would be a study by Male doctors, no?
> 
> mark wilkin
- ----Actually,I don`t know,it appeared in some magazine(GQ/For
Men/FHM,one of that type).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:11:46 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: sex (and why not)

mark.wilkin writes:

>> Speaking of 3-5% of the population being Homosexual
>> reminds me of a survey I heard of,according to it 90% of women have
>> bi-sexual leanings(it didn`t mention men).
>
>Now I'm just guessing but this would be a study by Male doctors, no?

   The survey probably said something to the effect that 90% of women
had fantasized about being with another woman.  This is not the same
thing as having bisexual leanings.  Many people fantasize about killing
their boss, but that doesn't make them prone to commit murder.

   I liked Sharon Stone's comment when asked if she were bisexual: "it
ain't got no zing if it ain't got that schwing."

   This also bring up another side discussion of "martial aid devices"
at TL 15, but I'll save that for later....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:30:30 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

Joining me even further off-topic, Mike Sellers writes: 

>As for the ancient Greeks, particularly the Stoics who are most commonly
>the ones thought of with the man/boy relationship, I understand that a
>great deal of the common belief about their cultural homosexuality is
>overblown.

   So to speak....<G>

   Actually the overall Greek view of homosexual relationships was much
more tolerant than in the Judeo-Christian era.  In retrospect it might
appear that homosexual behavior was common place everywhere which it
certainly was not.  Indeed, for every two or three cities that tolerated
it, there was probably one using turnips as a form of punishment
(ouch!).  Generalizing about the Greek city-states is dangerous given
their diversity, but this is one of those areas where reputation is
based on more than myth.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:29:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

At 04:40 pm 04/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Eric Holmes wrote:
>
>> Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com wrote concerning displacement tonnages.
>> 
>> With his comments considered, are we creating Traveller starships with
>> unrealistic displacement tonnages?
>> 
>> Lets look at some ratios.
>> 
>> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)
>
>In WWII, the displacement was measured by water, not Lhyd.

	Also, why are we trying to shoehorn Traveller ship classifications into
the SIZES generally exhibited during a single period on Earth by WET NAVY
vessels, when those vessels themselves were classified based more on
FUNCTION than on size?

	I'd rather define what the PURPOSE of a battleship is, then let its size
be a result of that. If you decide that a battleship is simply a 5,000Td
warship, I'll build a 50,000Td warship and kick its exhaust ports ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:27:04 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

At 02:42 PM 4/17/97 -0500, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:
>Seriously, there is a large hidden gay population in the United States
>(as an example).  

By the same logic, you could just as authoritatively say that we have a
large hidden population of space aliens in the United States.  Despite
continued anecdotal claims like this, the last couple of methodologically
sound surveys have confirmed the 2-3% number (by comparison, about 12% is
black, and about 15% regularly uses the Internet).  

>We in this country have failed to make the facts sexual orientation
>acceptable in the culture at large in general as evidenced by the Defense
>of Marriage Act.

Well, the _facts_ of sexual orientation are at best very poorly understood
by anyone from developmental neurologists to psychologists or sociologists.
 Various groups have deeply held _opinions_ but those may or may not be the
same as facts.  

>In The Imperium each world will have its own prejudices which may be
>similar or opposite or just different from our own.  

Whew, back on topic at last!  I think someone already brought up "The
Forever War."  A crew of hets going to a homosex or no-sex planet might
make for interesting role playing. :)

And then there is the Puppeteer notion of sex...


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:21:01 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

To Quote Isaac Asimov:

Oh give me a clone
My very own Clone
with its Y chromosone changed to X
and me and my clone
my very own clone
will talk of nothing but sex

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:54:11 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Tech Levels

>Brody Dunn wrote....
>>"....I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
>>Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
>>because theyt are so close...."

>Ultimately, it's up to you what you want to do in your universe.

It almost always is :)

>Well, at least to this heretic it is.

And to us all.... Hahahahahahah ahah ha ha ha HahaHa

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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:00:12 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage

Christopher Russel Wrote

>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Eric Holmes wrote:

>> Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com wrote concerning displacement tonnages.
>> With his comments considered, are we creating Traveller starships with
>> unrealistic displacement tonnages?
>> Lets look at some ratios.
>> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)
>
>In WWII, the displacement was measured by water, not Lhyd.

Which would measure the mass in tonnes (on earth anyway - would different 
world have different water displacements?)
Whereas the Displacement in liquid Hydrogen is purely a volume based 
measurement.  After all a ship must have some of itself above the water 
line or it becomes a submarine :)
I would expect a Close escort to actually mass in the region of 4000 tonnes 
(4,000,000 kg)



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:52:17 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Tech Levels

Kenneth Beardon brought up some good points about strange TL combinations 
of worlds next to each other.

Such as

>I don't see the problem with having high tech systems next to low
>tech systems.

and I agree completely.  I must also add that comment was what I was 
looking for.

Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different
tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same
contintent.

But anything you can get in the states you can get in mexico - and you can 
probably have it serviced there as well.
However, could mexico manufacture all the stuff the US can make. hmmmmmm 
maybe, maybe not.

If you keep looking, you can continue to see more examples like
this, and, citing this,  I don't think it is strange at all to have
a very high TL star system right next door to a very low TL star
system.

I agree the random factor makes for much more interesting environments to 
game in.  But, I also think that the Tech Level is presented incorrectly in 
the game.  It is mostly used as a what-is-available-here sort of measure. 
 I feel it should really be a what-can-be-made-here sort of thing and that 
some guidelines for bleed through of technology should be developed.

For example although Sorel has a TL1 rating the nearness of a TL15 POP10 
world such as glisten would tend to mean that most prosperous Soreleans 
would have high tech gizmo's (Glisten would almost have to be a net 
exporter).  Whereas a more distant, higher TL world mayy not have the 
degree of gizmoisation simply because of distance.


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3`%)%.B ``````P`--/TW``![_DN\
`
end

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:19:50 -0400
From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

- --------------78C5B1F1768ACEFB89FDAFF7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.

I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
peoples time.

sturm

Harold D. Hale wrote:

> Joining me even further off-topic, Mike Sellers writes:
>
> >As for the ancient Greeks, particularly the Stoics who are most
> commonly
> >the ones thought of with the man/boy relationship, I understand
> that a
> >great deal of the common belief about their cultural homosexuality
> is
> >overblown.
>
>    So to speak....<G>
>
>    Actually the overall Greek view of homosexual relationships was
> much
> more tolerant than in the Judeo-Christian era.  In retrospect it
> might
> appear that homosexual behavior was common place everywhere which it
>
> certainly was not.  Indeed, for every two or three cities that
> tolerated
> it, there was probably one using turnips as a form of punishment
> (ouch!).  Generalizing about the Greek city-states is dangerous
> given
> their diversity, but this is one of those areas where reputation is
> based on more than myth.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harold



- --------------78C5B1F1768ACEFB89FDAFF7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><BODY>
I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER, stuff
like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics, reviews of
Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.&nbsp; I don't really
care&nbsp; much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium, and I'd
wager most Traveller players don't care much either.
<BR>
<BR>I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend anyone,
but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear about a little
sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting peoples time.
<BR>
<BR>sturm
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Harold D. Hale wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Joining me even further off-topic, Mike Sellers writes:
<BR>
<BR><I>&gt;As for the ancient Greeks, particularly the Stoics who are most commonly</I>
<BR><I>&gt;the ones thought of with the man/boy relationship, I understand that
a</I>
<BR><I>&gt;great deal of the common belief about their cultural homosexuality
is</I>
<BR><I>&gt;overblown.</I>
<BR>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; So to speak....&lt;G&gt;
<BR>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Actually the overall Greek view of homosexual relationships
was much
<BR>more tolerant than in the Judeo-Christian era.&nbsp; In retrospect it might
<BR>appear that homosexual behavior was common place everywhere which it
<BR>certainly was not.&nbsp; Indeed, for every two or three cities that tolerated
<BR>it, there was probably one using turnips as a form of punishment
<BR>(ouch!).&nbsp; Generalizing about the Greek city-states is dangerous given
<BR>their diversity, but this is one of those areas where reputation is
<BR>based on more than myth.
<BR>
<BR>Regards,
<BR>
<BR>Harold
</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;

</BODY>
</HTML>

- --------------78C5B1F1768ACEFB89FDAFF7--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1215
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1216



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Official SSDS Question--Ship's Lasers
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
A Ship Laser Question for anybody that cares
Re: Gays in the Imperium
RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))
Sorry
RE: All Tech Levels
RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))
RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage
RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage
RE: All Tech Levels
RE: All Tech Levels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:40:58 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage

David J Golden wrote

Also, why are we trying to shoehorn Traveller ship classifications into
the SIZES generally exhibited during a single period on Earth by WET NAVY
vessels, when those vessels themselves were classified based more on
FUNCTION than on size?

Sadly due to the design style of Ships in Traveller it is not possible to 
have a real Cruiser because range is almost always restricted to one 
Maximum Jump :(


I'd rather define what the PURPOSE of a battleship is, then let its size
be a result of that. If you decide that a battleship is simply a 5,000Td
warship, I'll build a 50,000Td warship and kick its exhaust ports ...

How about someting like this (and hopefully I will not restart the Fighters 
thread - Sheeeesh...)

Fighters - Very Small (< 100tons) - very fast, incapable of Jump - area 
denial, supression, fleet security and missile launchers

System Defense Boats - Of any size but generally small (100-1000 tons) - 
fast, incapable of jump - area denial, patrol, defense, stealth and hiding 
to attack those pesky refueling vessels

Corvettes - Small patrol vessels - maybe jump capable (Workhorse of the 
fleet sort of thing) used for duties ranging from Fighter to System Defence 
Boats to Destroyer Roles and many others besides.

Destroyers - medium (1000 - 10,000t) - quite fast but designed to harrass 
enemy shipping, area denial, and operate solo (or in packs ) with out a 
fleet also perform escort duties

Frigates - Medium (100-10,000t) - like a detroyer by more suited to a fleet 
based role - such as anti fighter, antomissile, Aegis type operations

Cruisers - Any ship can be a cruiser(if they have extra range or duration)

Cruiser - the ship class (rather than the type) - Large ( 10000-100000t), 
well armoured - well armed - good range - Ship of the line stuff - carries 
all kinds of good stuff (drop troops - fighters etc... in large enough 
quanities to be useful)

Battlecruiser - (100000- 200000t) Armed or armoured like a battleship but 
lighter and faster with better range otherwise like a cruiser.

Battleship - The big baby(100000-400000t) - Very heavily Armoured and Armed 
- - adequate range and speed - Not many of these in your fleet.

Battlestar (Space opera helped here) - A _VERY_ big Battleship (400000t +)

Other ship types include the Tender, carriers, assualt landers etc.., but 
most of these are essentially non combatants and tend to be the size 
required (or allowed - pesky polititians)

Remember that a fleet that is not designed for War will Lose, but a fleet 
that is not designed for Peace will never be built.

Any Comments ( Point Defences enabled - Control set to auto - Wepaons are 
free )



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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:26:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Official SSDS Question--Ship's Lasers

I've been tinkering around with the Mayday combat system.  I'm 
examining the possibility of shortening the time and distance scales.

One of the things I don't like about the Traveller space combat 
systems is that the combat turns are too long.  You only get one shot 
at an enemy per battery in 10 minutes?

That seems a little long to me.

My question is this--

If I shorten the time/distance scales, how long does it take a ship's 
laser to recharge before it can fire again.

Is this instantaneous?  6 seconds?  10 minutes?  What?

Also, what about max range.  I can figure range for lasers based on 
Mayday, Baisic CT rules, and Brilliant Lances, but this comes out to 
about 2.5 to 3 million kilometers.  Can this be right?

Or, is it that range for starship lasers is not what limits you--its 
the sensor range?  

Sensor range always works out shorter than a laser's max range.

Without sensors, can you even fire at a target?  Do you have to have 
a sensor lock in order to fire?

I noticed in Mayday that there is a rule for manual control--so that 
you can use your lasers without the computer.  Does this imply that a 
sensor lock is not needed to fire at a target?

My ultimate goal here is to do one of two things--

1)  Either shorten the distance and time scales for space combat so 
that a ship fires more often given the time scale, but only gets one 
fire attempt per battery per combat round

2) Or the ship uses the printed time and distance scales, but the 
ships are allowed to fire at each other more often.

This is really an offical question, but I'd like input from any 
others who wish to give it.

For my game, I'm breaking new ground here.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:03:33 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> >> 
> >> Lets look at some ratios.
> >> 
> >> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)
> >
> >In WWII, the displacement was measured by water, not Lhyd.
> 
> 	Also, why are we trying to shoehorn Traveller ship classifications into
> the SIZES generally exhibited during a single period on Earth by WET NAVY
> vessels, when those vessels themselves were classified based more on
> FUNCTION than on size?
> 
> 	I'd rather define what the PURPOSE of a battleship is, then let its size
> be a result of that. If you decide that a battleship is simply a 5,000Td
> warship, I'll build a 50,000Td warship and kick its exhaust ports ...

Perhaps because we are creatures of habit and tradition and that we would
probably carry the same ideas for a wet navy to a space navy.  

I hope I am not "pontificating" to much for you Dave  :->

Michael,

"It's easy to tell when a politician is lying. Watch his lips.  If they 
move, he's lying."
  - Charles Lyall

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:28:32 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: A Ship Laser Question for anybody that cares

This is really an offical question, but I'd like input from any 
others who wish to give it.


I've been tinkering around with the Mayday combat system.  I'm 
examining the possibility of shortening the time and distance scales.

One of the things I don't like about the Traveller space combat 
systems is that the combat turns are too long.  You only get one shot 
at an enemy per battery in 10 minutes?

That seems a little long to me.

My question is this--

If I shorten the time/distance scales, how long does it take a ship's 
laser to recharge before it can fire again.

Is this instantaneous?  6 seconds?  10 minutes?  What?

Also, what about max range.  I can figure range for lasers based on 
Mayday, Baisic CT rules, and Brilliant Lances, but this comes out to 
about 2.5 to 3 million kilometers.  Can this be right?

Or, is it that range for starship lasers is not what limits you--its 
the sensor range?  

Sensor range always works out shorter than a laser's max range.

Without sensors, can you even fire at a target?  Do you have to have 
a sensor lock in order to fire?

I noticed in Mayday that there is a rule for manual control--so that 
you can use your lasers without the computer.  Does this imply that a 
sensor lock is not needed to fire at a target?

My ultimate goal here is to do one of two things--

1)  Either shorten the distance and time scales for space combat so 
that a ship fires more often given the time scale, but only gets one 
fire attempt per battery per combat round

2) Or the ship uses the printed time and distance scales, but the 
ships are allowed to fire at each other more often.



For my game, I'm breaking new ground here.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium

	Howdy!

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, John R. Snead wrote:

> All this talk of 3-5% of the population being gay is fine for cultures
> just like our own.  There are lots of worlds in the Imperium which may be
> quite different.  Look at classical Greece and Rome, most men were
> expected to be homosexual (and many women were too).  Similarly, in the
> 19th century navy and merchant marine male homosexuality was quite common. 

	In Classical Rome, men were not "expected" to be gay.  In
Classical Greece, it was more common and unofficially condoned.  People
were still killed in ancient Greece for being gay.

	There are many societies (some tribes in New Zealand, and several
S. Pacific Islands) were male homosexuality is not only expected, it is
encouraged.  This extends to hunting groups and male
socializations. Marriage and children are also expected.

	A lot more has been written about
male homosexuality in anthropological literature due to limitations of the
past as well as the fact that most anthropologists were male until
recently (and thus participant observation into female spheres is
difficult).  Also, there is a stigma on publications dealing exclusively
with these topics.


> I'd expect rates of homosexuality to vary from 1-2% to 70%+ depending on 
> the particular culture and planet.  Humans are pretty darn flexible wrt 
> most behavior if there is enough cultural pressure.

	You bet.

	(How the heck did this topic start up?)

	Later!

	Ken

- --
Kenneth J. Winland, M.A.
University of Toronto
Department of Anthropology

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:15:03 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))

Douglas E Berry wrote

At 04:37 PM 4/17/97 +1200, you wrote:
>
>I have some major problems with the way that Tech Levels are presented
>anyway.
>I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and
>Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level
>because theyt are so close.
>We (in our little playing group) have always assumed that TL really 
relates
>to manufacturing and support technology.

I see TL as being the level that the world could maintain if cut off from
interstellar contact.  A world may import higher TL gear, but it's the
ability to manufacture and repair that counts.

Exactly.  We see TL as being that which the world is capable of utilizing 
on it own.  Other High tech Items or facilities may be present but these 
rely solely on external support and as such cost exorbitent sums (all in 
Imperial Credits of Course).

Don't be too sure about technology trickling down from high tech worlds..
Here on Earth there are still areas operating at TL2-3, while we chat away
on our TL8 computer networks.  Cultural attitudes, legal restrictions, lack
of resources, all these can lead to a world lagging behind in TL.

Worlds would lag behind and they do as shown on any map of the imperium 
showing Tech Level.  However, all worlds would have some Tech from all 
levels. The ratio for each Tech Level would be related to the distance from 
the source world of that technology.

>After all, except (perhaps) for some specific industrial secrets (such as
>Fusion Plus), most technology has already been discovered for each tech
>level so knowledge is not a factor but capability is.  Maybe some low tech 
>level planets have teaching universities fully on par with those on higher 
>tech planets - they cannot however do the researchy stuff.

Vilani settled/influenced worlds, with their attitude towards the ownership
of technology, are not going to be that quick to advance; it's simply
against what they know is right.

While some cultural aspects to technology exchange may hinder advances I 
would hope that in most cases the science behind the technology is easily 
available.  The concept I'm trying here is that most Science is readily 
accessible and that  if you had enough money and resources you could just 
start a TL15 society on an empty world and baring any calamity it could be 
self sufficient.  This is implied in the World Builders Handbook which 
details Colony design and stuff.  This would mean that any world could 
quite readily change to any tech level given the resources.  These are most 
likely beyond the reach of all worlds - but also implies that many difering 
tech levels could exist of the same world - I would supect that the single 
UWP is becoming a millstone around the neck of world designers and that 
very few worlds are made up of single world spanning government (but as the 
average population is in the Hundreds of Thousands perhaps they are WSG). 
 Hmm I'm a bit off track here but I hope you can see my point.

Rather than universities, the big agent of change in the Imperium is going
to be the Navy and Marines.  Imagine a farm kid from a TL4 world joins the
Marines.  He sees and learns to use equpment that is one step removed from
magic, and sees how easy life is with these tools.  After four years, he
returns home, and starts improving things on the family farm using
techniques he learned in the INMF.  Enough of these vets, and you'll see a
slow, steady rise in TL.

hmmmmm - Could you go home again after all that exposure to the real 
Imperium.  Why not settle on a nice world?  But then again why not return 
home?

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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:27:28 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Sorry

I simply can't believe how crappy this mailer can be.

I unreservedly apologise to anyone inconvenienced by my 5 recent posts - I 
can only claim that my previous few posts functioned perfectly and I had 
assumed that these would also.

However, I undertake to never send a post to the list without test posting 
it to myself first to ensure that it is correctly not formatted.

Once again I can only say sorry - It WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN!!

Brody Dunn
Flame me at brody@intersol.co.nz
or bdunn@ihug.co.nz
or bdunn@nznet.gen.nz

"I pay too many, too much"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:40:00 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: All Tech Levels

>begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
>M>)\^(@P"`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <`

	Could some kind soul PLEASE repost the instructions for keeping this
garbage off the mailing list? I've misplaced my copy, otherwise I'd do the
honors.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:39:05 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))

Head Hung in Shame I send this again (see apology earlier)

Douglas E Berry wrote

>At 04:37 PM 4/17/97 +1200, you wrote:
>>
>>We (in our little playing group) have always assumed that TL really 
relates
>>to manufacturing and support technology.

>I see TL as being the level that the world could maintain if cut off from
>interstellar contact.  A world may import higher TL gear, but it's the
>ability to manufacture and repair that counts.

Exactly.  We see TL as being that which the world is capable of utilizing 
on it own.  Other High tech Items or facilities may be present but these 
rely solely on external support and as such cost exorbitent sums (all in 
Imperial Credits of Course).

>Don't be too sure about technology trickling down from high tech worlds..
>Here on Earth there are still areas operating at TL2-3, while we chat away
>on our TL8 computer networks.  Cultural attitudes, legal restrictions, 
lack
>of resources, all these can lead to a world lagging behind in TL.

Worlds would lag behind and they do as shown on any map of the imperium 
showing Tech Level.  However, all worlds would have some Tech from all 
levels. The ratio for each Tech Level would be related to the distance from 
the source world of that technology.

>>After all, except (perhaps) for some specific industrial secrets... 
...most technology
>>has already been discovered... ...knowledge is not a factor but 
capability is

>Vilani settled/influenced worlds, with their attitude towards the 
ownership
>of technology, are not going to be that quick to advance; it's simply
>against what they know is right.

While some cultural aspects to technology exchange may hinder advances I 
would hope that in most cases the science behind the technology is easily 
available.  The concept I'm trying here is that most Science is readily 
accessible and that  if you had enough money and resources you could just 
start a TL15 society on an empty world and baring any calamity it could be 
self sufficient.  This is implied in the World Builders Handbook which 
details Colony design and stuff.  This would mean that any world could 
quite readily change to any tech level given the resources.  These are most 
likely beyond the reach of all worlds - but also implies that many difering 
tech levels could exist of the same world - I would supect that the single 
UWP is becoming a millstone around the neck of world designers and that 
very few worlds are made up of single world spanning government (but as the 
average population is in the Hundreds of Thousands perhaps they are WSG). 
 Hmm I'm a bit off track here but I hope you can see my point.

>Imagine a farm kid from a TL4 world joins the Marines.....After four 
years, he
>returns home, and starts improving things on the family farm using
>techniques he learned in the INMF.  Enough of these vets, and you'll see a
>slow, steady rise in TL.

hmmmmm - Could you go home again after all that exposure to the real 
Imperium.  Why not settle on a nice world?  But then again why not return 
home?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:39:54 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage

Head Hung in Shame I send this again (see apology earlier)

Christopher Russel Wrote

>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Eric Holmes wrote:

>> Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com wrote concerning displacement tonnages.
>> With his comments considered, are we creating Traveller starships with
>> unrealistic displacement tonnages?
>> Lets look at some ratios.
>> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)
>
>In WWII, the displacement was measured by water, not Lhyd.

Which would measure the mass in tonnes (on earth anyway - would different 
world have different water displacements?)
Whereas the Displacement in liquid Hydrogen is purely a volume based 
measurement.  After all a ship must have some of itself above the water 
line or it becomes a submarine :)
I would expect a Close escort to actually mass in the region of 4000 tonnes 
(4,000,000 kg)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:39:34 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage

Head Hung in Shame I send this again (see apology earlier)

David J Golden wrote

>Also, why are we trying to shoehorn Traveller ship classifications into
>the SIZES generally exhibited during a single period on Earth by WET NAVY
>vessels, when those vessels themselves were classified based more on
>FUNCTION than on size?

Sadly due to the design style of Ships in Traveller it is not possible to 
have a real Cruiser because range is almost always restricted to one 
Maximum Jump :(


>I'd rather define what the PURPOSE of a battleship is, then let its size
>be a result of that. If you decide that a battleship is simply a 5,000Td
>warship, I'll build a 50,000Td warship and kick its exhaust ports ...

How about someting like this (and hopefully I will not restart the Fighters 
thread - Sheeeesh...)

Fighters - Very Small (< 100tons) - very fast, incapable of Jump - area 
denial, supression, fleet security and missile launchers

System Defense Boats - Of any size but generally small (100-1000 tons) - 
fast, incapable of jump - area denial, patrol, defense, stealth and hiding 
to attack those pesky refueling vessels

Corvettes - Small patrol vessels - maybe jump capable (Workhorse of the 
fleet sort of thing) used for duties ranging from Fighter to System Defence 
Boats to Destroyer Roles and many others besides.

Destroyers - medium (1000 - 10,000t) - quite fast but designed to harrass 
enemy shipping, area denial, and operate solo (or in packs ) with out a 
fleet also perform escort duties

Frigates - Medium (100-10,000t) - like a detroyer by more suited to a fleet 
based role - such as anti fighter, antomissile, Aegis type operations

Cruisers - Any ship can be a cruiser(if they have extra range or duration)

Cruiser - the ship class (rather than the type) - Large ( 10000-100000t), 
well armoured - well armed - good range - Ship of the line stuff - carries 
all kinds of good stuff (drop troops - fighters etc... in large enough 
quanities to be useful)

Battlecruiser - (100000- 200000t) Armed or armoured like a battleship but 
lighter and faster with better range otherwise like a cruiser.

Battleship - The big baby(100000-400000t) - Very heavily Armoured and Armed 
- - adequate range and speed - Not many of these in your fleet.

Battlestar (Space opera helped here) - A _VERY_ big Battleship (400000t +)

Other ship types include the Tender, carriers, assualt landers etc.., but 
most of these are essentially non combatants and tend to be the size 
required (or allowed - pesky polititians)

Remember that a fleet that is not designed for War will Lose, but a fleet 
that is not designed for Peace will never be built.

Any Comments ( Point Defences enabled - Control set to auto - Wepaons are 
free )

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:40:15 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Tech Levels

Head Hung in Shame I send this again (see apology earlier) 

>Brody Dunn wrote....
>>"....I mean TL 15 and TL 1 worlds right next to each other (like Glisten and 
>>Sorel).  There would have to be some major bleed through of Tech Level 
>>because theyt are so close...."

>Ultimately, it's up to you what you want to do in your universe.

It almost always is :)

>Well, at least to this heretic it is.

And to us all.... Hahahahahahah ahah ha ha ha HahaHa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:40:35 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Tech Levels

Head Hung in Shame I send this again (see apology earlier)

Kenneth Beardon brought up some good points about strange TL combinations 
of worlds next to each other.

Such as

>I don't see the problem with having high tech systems next to low
>tech systems.

and I agree completely.  I must also add that comment was what I was 
looking for.

Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different
tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same
contintent.

But anything you can get in the states you can get in mexico - and you can 
probably have it serviced there as well.
However, could mexico manufacture all the stuff the US can make. hmmmmmm 
maybe, maybe not.

If you keep looking, you can continue to see more examples like
this, and, citing this,  I don't think it is strange at all to have
a very high TL star system right next door to a very low TL star
system.

I agree the random factor makes for much more interesting environments to 
game in.  But, I also think that the Tech Level is presented incorrectly in 
the game.  It is mostly used as a what-is-available-here sort of measure. 
 I feel it should really be a what-can-be-made-here sort of thing and that 
some guidelines for bleed through of technology should be developed.

For example although Sorel has a TL1 rating the nearness of a TL15 POP10 
world such as glisten would tend to mean that most prosperous Soreleans 
would have high tech gizmo's (Glisten would almost have to be a net 
exporter).  Whereas a more distant, higher TL world mayy not have the 
degree of gizmoisation simply because of distance.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1216
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1217



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re Travller Digest #1215
1889
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
Re: Traveller 1950? Hey, that's my idea!
Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12
Re: Life is Hard in Traveller
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's Lasers
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: "Pacific" class MER boat
Re: Racism and Sexism
Re: Question: Sandcasters vs. Dampers
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: Question: Dampers vs. Sandcasters
Re: 1889 drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:47:04 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Re Travller Digest #1215

TO ANYONE WHO LOST A DIGEST BECAUSE OFF MY HIDEOUS POSTS

PLEASE EMAIL ME AT

brody@intersol.co.nz

AND I WILL SEND YOU A CLEAN COPY WITHOUT ALL THE EXTRA STUFF IN IT.

And again my apologies and I will try to make sure it never happens again.  I must look like such a boob!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 07:04:31 +0200
From: marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
Subject: 1889

If you are interested in 1889 themes, and don't already know the Forgotten
Futures stuff, check out the following url:

http://www.tierzucht.uni-kiel.de/~sma/forgottenfutures/

__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:53:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

	Howdy!

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, sturm wrote:

> I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
> stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
> reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
> don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
> and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.

	Traveller has a rich background, which lends itself for discussion
concerning politics, social issues, xenology, and technology accross
several thousand years and thousands of systems/cultures.  The topic of
sexuality is interesting, and certainly should generate *some* discussion
as this would be an important social facet of both human and alien
cultures.

	It is nice to see other topics addressed rather than grav tanks,
gauss weapons, product reviews, fushion rifles, and the other bland tech
toys. 

> 
> I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
> anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
> about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
> peoples time.

	If you are uncomfortable with a topic or feel bored by it, don't
read it and skip it.  This list should be able to accomodate both the
gadget freaks and the culture nuts.  I, for one, would love to see a
discussion on ethnomedical beliefs and practices among some of the races.
Now THAT would bore some people...

	For me, the Traveller appeal was its background, which draws from
a lot of "classic" SF sources, and lends itself to richer development.  I
don't play Star Wars or other space opera-like games for that reason
(although they do make fun one-offs).

	I would also love to see a discussion on the best/worst of the old
Traveller supps. and magazines.  There was some really great source
material out there 12+ years ago.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:18:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller 1950? Hey, that's my idea!

In a message dated 97-04-17 14:50:35 EDT, you write:

<< 
 	I do have some preliminary timeline work done, up until the early
 '50's.  If anyone wants to see them I can email/post them...
 
 R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
  >>
Post it!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:12:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12

In a message dated 97-04-17 05:19:48 EDT, you write:

<< After all nothing stops a TL15 mechanic from setting up shop on a TL1
world 
 (Spare parts will cost a packet however) just to support all that cool tech 
 stuff that they cannot make on planet.
 After all, except (perhaps) for some specific industrial secrets (such as 
 Fusion Plus), most technology has already been discovered for each tech 
 level so knowledge is not a factor but capability is.  Maybe some low tech 
 level planets have teaching universities fully on par with those on higher 
 tech planets - they cannot however do the researchy stuff.
 
 Thoughts anyone ???
  >>
Maybe they have a Prime Directive sorta thing, maybe there is some sort of
field that makes anything magnet act goofy and unusable.  Just a few ideas...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:22:29 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Life is Hard in Traveller

>        This list has seen Marc's efforts for presenting a new system, and
>Kenneth's counter-attack. I agree that maybe KBv2.0 is a good system, but,
>for some non-rational reason, It's not really appealing for me. I want Skill
>level to be the relevant number, not Experience=3xSkill level. But, still, I
>do not want to add Skill+Attribute as in the T4 system, that puts too much
>weight on attributes. The MT task system solved it fairly well. In fact,
>maybe we could just come up with some minor modification of the MT system to
>use with T4 characters...

If you were around for the Great Task System thread about a month ago you
would have seen a lot of different task systems proposed. I actually tried
out several of them; most were so broken they were obviously proposed
completely off the cuff and with no playtesting whatsoever. Frankly, I feel
the published T4 system falls into that category as well...

However, there were two systems that did work well in playtest, and were
fairly simple to implement. One was KBv1.1 (which eventually became
KBv2.0), and the other was one based on MegaTraveller. In that system (the
author of which I forget) you rolled 2 dice against a target number
specified by the task difficulty (I can't remember the exact numbers, it
was something like easy = 4+, average = 7+, difficult = 10+, and so on).
Skills and "attribute modifiers" were DMs, where an attribute modifier was
from a table. I can't remember the table exactly, but an attribute of 1
giving a modifier of -2, 2 to 5 giving -1, 6 to 8 giving 0, and so on seems
familiar.

While this system gave good results, I did not like it as much as KBv1.1
(and I like KBv2.0 much more than KBv1.1). I didn't understand where the
target numbers came from, it had this annoying and arbitrary table you had
to look attributes up with, and it meant that attributes of 6 and 8 had the
same effect on tasks. On the plus side, "DM" always meant "dice modifier"
with this system, positive DMs were always good, and you always rolled 2
dice.

You can give this system a try, but I gave up on it. KBv2.0 survived a
pretty ruthless evolutionary battle between task systems because, in my
experience, it was the best one.

- --
RIchard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:22:55 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

At 03:03 pm 04/18/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>Perhaps because we are creatures of habit and tradition and that we would
>probably carry the same ideas for a wet navy to a space navy.  

	Yes, but even wet navies redefine their ships based on purpose, without
being too straitjacketed by habit and tradition. Look at the evolution of
the battleship over the first half of the century, the birth of
"battlecruisers," "destroyers," etc...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:20:40 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

At 11:19 pm 04/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>   much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium, and I'd wager most
>Traveller players don't care much either. 

	Perhaps not, but others do.

>I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend anyone,
>but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear about a little
>sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting peoples time. 

	Part of a science fiction ROLE PLAYING game is the interaction among
people, which is affected by the society. So discussions about how people
behave in a society are indeed relevant to the game. If you don't want to
waste your time, don't bother reading.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:19:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's Lasers

At 09:26 pm 04/17/97 +0000, you wrote:
>If I shorten the time/distance scales, how long does it take a ship's 
>laser to recharge before it can fire again.

	The rate of fire is the number of shots the weapons can fire in a single
30minute combat round. You can figure out the recharge time from there ...

>Also, what about max range.  I can figure range for lasers based on 
>Mayday, Baisic CT rules, and Brilliant Lances, but this comes out to 
>about 2.5 to 3 million kilometers.  Can this be right?

	Take the BL range in hexes, multiply by 30,000 kilometers.

>Or, is it that range for starship lasers is not what limits you--its 
>the sensor range?  

	In BL, you can't fire at targets further away than (IIRC) 44 hexes, or
1.32 million kilometers.

>I noticed in Mayday that there is a rule for manual control--so that 
>you can use your lasers without the computer.  Does this imply that a 
>sensor lock is not needed to fire at a target?

	Mayday may imply that, but I wouldn't allow it. You can't even SEE the
target.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:26:11 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:19:50 -0400
> From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
> Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
>
> I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
> stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
> reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
> don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
> and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.
> 
> I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
> anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
> about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
> peoples time.
> 
> sturm

If you don't like it then don't read those posts.

I am not offended that you're not interested, but I am mildly perturbed
that you want us to stop talking about it (and I think this thread was
starting to die down a bit anyway).

I understand what you are saying but I happen to think that these posts
are more ineresting than the nigh unending argument going on a week or
to ago about fighters & the posts tend to be a _lot_ shorter too.

I'm also somewhat confused by your comment that you are interested in
Imperial politics but don't wan't to hear about the position of gays in
the Imperium.  Gays in the Imperium _is_ a policial discussion (as well
as a social one) and we got into this discussion by commenting on the
underlying subtexual evidence, in cannonical Traveller material, that
Archduke Norris seemed to be gay. The fact that the ruler of an area
(the Regency) choose not to marry (& thus enter into a political
alliance) is about the most political question there is.

May I respectfully suggest that those of you who are unwilling to accept
the evidence that Norris was gay be willing to consider the possibility
that there are those of us out there who know a _lot_ more on this
subject than you do and are more likely to notice this sort of thing. 
Norris set off my gaydar before I even knew what the term meant.

To me Traveller has always been about an optimistic future and one of
the things that made it optimistic was the Third Imperiums lack of
discrimination. When I bought my 3 little black books in 1978 at the age
of 12 one of the first things I noticed was a message of toleration of
diversity "Nowhere in these rules is a specific requirement established
that any charecter (player or non-player) be of a specific gender or
race.  Any charecter is potentially of any race or of either sex " -
Classic Traveller 1st Ed Book 1 pg 8

I think that this toleration must extend to sexual orientation.  While I
am revulsed by the Third Imperiums toleration of the brutality & murder
found on many of its extreme law level worlds I revel in the toleration
it offers.  

Peter Newman - yet another bisexual on the Traveller mailing list :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:32:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

 
> How about someting like this (and hopefully I will not restart the Fighters 
> thread - Sheeeesh...)

Sorry... :-)
 
> Fighters - Very Small (< 100tons) - very fast, incapable of Jump - area 
> denial, supression, fleet security and missile launchers

"very fast"  Again, ditch this notation as it makes no sense at all.

Better: 

Fighters - Very Small, lightly armored, no jump, missions as you suggest.
 
> System Defense Boats - Of any size but generally small (100-1000 tons) - 
> fast, incapable of jump - area denial, patrol, defense, stealth and hiding 
> to attack those pesky refueling vessels

Again, fast is a non-term.  Other than that, add "better armor" to
fighters above, and keep the missions.

> Destroyers - medium (1000 - 10,000t) - quite fast but designed to harrass 
> enemy shipping, area denial, and operate solo (or in packs ) with out a 
> fleet also perform escort duties

Once again, in traveller "fast could only mean "high jump number" or
something.  Otherwise OK.

> Frigates - Medium (100-10,000t) - like a detroyer by more suited to a fleet 
> based role - such as anti fighter, antomissile, Aegis type operations

Hmmm.  US usage has frigates under destroyers, though they flip them
on the other side of the pond as I remember :-)
 
> Cruisers - Any ship can be a cruiser(if they have extra range or duration)
 
Traveller has historically described a Cruiser this way:

Capable of meeting ships of the line, but will always lose to a BB
(more or less).

> Cruiser - the ship class (rather than the type) - Large ( 10000-100000t), 
> well armoured - well armed - good range - Ship of the line stuff - carries 
> all kinds of good stuff (drop troops - fighters etc... in large enough 
> quanities to be useful)

Yeah.

> Battlecruiser - (100000- 200000t) Armed or armoured like a battleship but 
> lighter and faster with better range otherwise like a cruiser.

See above harping about "fast." :-)
 
That WinMail glop is gonna make somebody mad, i bet :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:32:58 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

I would like to see Traveller with a 3D map.  It would really
make the setting seem that much more "real".  However, could
a 3D map be made that was consitent with all the history?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:55:45 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> 
> Actually, mind-bendingly enough, there _are_ different sizes of
> infinities.  The infinity of points existing between, say, 1 and 2,
> is smaller than the infinity of points existing between, for example,
> 4 and 6.  No, I don't understand it completely.  Ask my dad the
> doctorate-holder....  :-)

There are different "levels" of infinity, but the two examples you give
are at the same level, called Aleph-1.  Aleph-0 is the infinity of
integers, Aleph-1 the infinity of real numbers, and Aleph-2 the
infinity of curves in N-space for finite N > 1.

To show that two infinities are the same 'size' you need to show that a
one-to-one mapping can be established between them; conversely, showing
such a mapping can't be established proves you have different-sized
infinities.

For example, in your case let the set of real numbers (and hence points)
in the interval [4, 6].  Now, we'll represent this as 4 + 2n for some
unique real number n in the interval [0,1].  Now, map this to 1 + n in the
smaller interval [1,2].  For every point in [4,6], we've now specified how
to map to a unique point in [1,2], and we can reverse this to map the
opposite way.  Having established a one-to-one mapping, we may conclude
that both infinities are the same 'size' or 'level.'

Showing that the infinity of reals is "bigger" than the infinity of
integers takes a bit more work...I can show the trick if anyone cares.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 01:32:42 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

On 04/17/97 at 09:39 AM,  Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov> said:

> Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com wrote concerning displacement tonnages.

I guess I missed the original post.

> With his comments considered, are we creating Traveller starships with
> unrealistic displacement tonnages?

> Lets look at some ratios.

Just be careful to use the same kind of *tons* in your comparisons. The
Traveller dt is 14 cubic meters.  OTOH, the tonnage of earthly sea-ships is
measured in several different ways.  The US standard ship ton is 100cubic
feet, approximately 1/5th of a Traveller dt, and the numbers you're quoting
below look like standard ship tons.

> CT Close Escort  400dT	WWII  CE  1250 - 3000 dT   (2200dT median)

    400dt * 5 = 2,000 ship tons  (approximately the same)
    
> CT Merc Cruiser  800dt	WWII  CR   6500 - 15K dT  (11K dT  median)

    800dt * 5 = 4,000 ship tons (a light cruiser)

    2,000dt * 5 = 10,000 ship tons (a reasonablly sized cruiser)

> CT BB/BR  50K dt?	WWII  BB  35K - 70K dT  (53K dT median)

    Here's where Traveller goes to ships *much* larger than your
    historic model.

    50,000dt * 5 = 250,000 ship tons!  (much larger!)
    
    and BB's in Traveller often exceed 100kdt!  
    
> Do we create a BB/BR closer to the CT Escort or Merc Cruiser ratios or
> should the CE/MC be larger?

Frankly, I'd prefer bringing the BC's, BB's, and BR's down a couple of
notches rather than pushing the smaller ships up.

> Personally, I like designing smaller ships and would recommend that a
> Traveller BB/BR not be larger than 5000 dT 

5000dt is a little light for the biggest ships, but there's a large gap
between 2kdt and 50kdt.  Here are some suggested volumes for several
classes of Civilian and Military ships that I wrote up a while back.  These
are the guidelines I use when designing hulls for my campaign's.  I've used
them twice in the past and will again for the game I'm preparing for this
summer.

Some Civilian Ship Classes (approximations)

    Class               Cubic Meters     Traveller Tons
    ====================================================
    Courier             1,000 - 2,000       70 - 140
    Yacht               2,000 - 4,000       140 - 300
    Small Merchant      3,000 - 9,000       200 - 650
    Liner/Med Merchant  8,000 - 70,000      600 - 5,000
    Large Merchant      60,000 - 700,000    4,000 - 50,000
    
Some Military Ship Classes (approximations)

    Class               Cubic Meters            Traveller Tons
    ==========================================================
    Missile/Gunboat     1,000 - 2,000           70 - 140
    Scout               1,000 - 3,000           70 - 200
    Corvette            3,000 - 9,000           200 - 650
    Frigate/Escort      8,000 - 20,000          600 - 1,500
    Destroyer           15,000 - 40,000         1,100 - 3,000
    Cruiser             30,000 - 200,000        2,000 - 14,000
    Battleship          200,000 - 700,000       14,000 - 50,000
    Battlerider/Carrier 400,000 - 1,000,000     28,000 - 70,000
    Dreadnaught         700,000 - 1,400,000     50,000 - 100,000
    SuperDreadnaught    1,000,000 - 2,000,000   70,000 - 140,000
            
I'd expect volumes for the bigger ships to be on the low end of the scale
for Milieu 0.  I also wouldn't expect very many Dreadnaughts or
SuperDreadnaughts to be in anybody's navy.  <G> In one game I had the PC's
as naval officers aboard a Frigate (~800dt) on detached duty performing
anti-piracy, diplomatic, and exploratory missions. In another, I have one
set of PC's on a Scout, another on a Small Merchant, and they will both
eventually end up trying to
salvage/repair an armed Medium Merchant that's on the bottom of a lake.  To
make matters worse the planet where the lake is located is deeply within
*enemy* space, so they've got to get in undetected, repair the ship, and
and get it back over the border without getting killed or restarting the
recently ended war.


Eris             
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:52:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Pacific" class MER boat

  Nice design . I liked the replacable module, and the accesories.  As for
the Hull Cracker, I'm not sure one needs that, given the Iris opener and
cutting torches in CSC, though I'd be open to arguements.

  One question about the low berth module - is that G-compensated?  Even
if the person is in a suspended state, I'd think they still need the
protection.  I couldn't tell if that was included in your design.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:54:06 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Racism and Sexism

> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:23:25 -0700
> From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
> Subject: Re: Racism and Sexism
> 
> >When you say "In the Third Imperium" do you mean opinions held by people
> >and governments on planets within the Third Imperium or do you mean
> >opinions held by the Imperial government itself ?  These are not the
> >same question.
> 
> >I think that the short version of the answer is that many planets do
> >have some predjudices, some planets are very predjudiced, and some
> >planets are unpredjudiced.  The people from these planets tend to hold
> >similar opinions but if & when they enter Imperial Military service they
> >will probably be tought that these differences are unimportant.
> 
> Actually, I was looking for opinions on both, but I appreciate your pointing this out.
> I'd agree that diffierent cultures would view things differently, but how does the
> Imperial military feel about homosexuality or bisexuality?  Indeed, do they, as you put
> forth, care about it?

Why should they care about it.  Given the cultural diversity of the
Third Imperium they probably gave up on worrying about such things a
long time ago as an impossible goal.  I would suspect thet the Imperial
military will have fairly rigid codes against PDA's or fraternization
but beyond that they won't care what you do off duty.
> 
> >South African style racism will probably be the most uncommon type of
> >racism out there however.  Most members of the Third Imperium are from a
> >blend of Solomani and Vilani stock.  Vilani are rather dark skinned, and
> >most Solomani are not caucausian either. Therefore most Imperials
> >_are_not_white_ (although this would be more apparent if more art from
> >CT & MT was color rather than black & white).  Since most people in the
> >Imperium will be dark skinned they are unlikely to have South African
> >views.
> 
> Understood.  Is it however different for the Solomani of "pure bred stock" ( for lack
> of a better term )?  Indeed is there such a thing.  Solomani/Aslan seems to hint that
> there are such things ( the Dootchen Estates ( South African Whites ), the Grand United
> States of Quesada ( Hispanics ), the New Slavic Solidarity, etc. ). Is this purely a
> cultural choice or do these Solomani states consist of peoples that are more true to
> their backgrounds?

I have always assumed that the in the Second Empire the former Vilani
planets were ruled by a racially diverse lot as the Solomani were spread
fairly thinly as military governors.  On planets much closer to Earth
(ie the Solomani sphere) the  Solomani populations were much larger and
more racially homogeneous and that races were preserved here but were
not preserved on previuosly Vilani planets.
> 
> >Well I think that hatred of some races (I won't name any names but these
> >massive herbivores inhabit an area known as the 2000 Worlds...) is in
> >fact a good idea that should be encouraged.
> >  The most common
> >type of anti alien discrimination will probably be _True_ however and
> >will thus be valid.
> > I think that anyone who is going to deal with a Vargr needs to
> >understand Vargr psychology but the level of popular understanding of
> >Vargr psychology will not necessarily be much above that of racist (but
> >somewhat true) slogans such as "You can't ever trust a Vargr because
> >they will betray you." or "Vargr workers are more trouble than they are
> >worth because they are always so pushy towrds you."
> 
> However, how many other racist comments could the average human come up with against the
> K'kree or the Vargr involved?  Are people making off-color jokes about the Vargr in the
> Imperium? 

Yes they are.  In Eepithets For The Fifth Frontier War (JTAS #9 pg 27,
1981) Marc Miller wrote "Imperial references to the Vargr concentrate on
their perceived speech patterns, and include snarl, gral, and barkers. 
The most offensive epithet is a refeerence to Vargr origins in the
canines of Terra: doggie."

> It would seem a culturally Imperial Vargr in the Imperium would face an
> uphill struggle against just the sort of racism we're discussing.

Yes but I think that its clearly not impossible or we would not have
seen Archduke Bzzrk (sp ?).
> 
> >For example in my Third Imperium the Darmine human race have an both a
> >very high incidence of bisexuality and homosexuality and a polytheistic
> >religion one of whose primary (and annoying) tenants is the
> >numerological belief that anything that happens in fours is significant.
> 
> This sounds wonderful :)  Is there anything written up on this race?  I'd love to see
> something on it.

No the canonical references to the Darmine are very few.  I have
essentially made up a background for the Darmine based on my playing of
a charecter who was 1/2 Darmine and was culturally Darmine.  I have
never written it up a a _racial_ description but I may do so sometime.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:02:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question: Sandcasters vs. Dampers

  That should be "sandcasters vs. nuclear dampers" not sandcasters vs.
laser turrets - hope the heading made that clear.  That's what I get for
posting late at night after a party.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:02:07 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

My rule of thumb for ship classes is that if it has a spinal mount and 
armour, it is a battleship, if it has a spinal mount it is a cruiser, if 
it has bay weaponary it is a destroyer and if it doesnt it is a corvette.

Non-jump capable ships of the line are called riders, non-jump capable 
destroyers and corvettes are called System Defense Boats and vessels 
below 100t are called fighters if armed and cutters if unarmed.

Of course, these are all CT definititions ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:05:11 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Question: Dampers vs. Sandcasters

Mark Clark wrote:
> 
>   Pardon me for showing yet again my ignorance of military-ship style
> combat (my games all centered on trade and the players were lucky if their
> ship even _had_ a turret, let alone a laser to put in it), but I was
> wondering if anyone could elighten me as to the comparitive advantages and
> disadvantages of sandcasters versus laser turrets.  

Without going into "flavours" of rules, sancasters are purely defensive, 
but have the advantage of not needing power (thus allowing smaller, 
cheaper engines or more power for other things) while lasers can be used 
offensivly as well as defensivly.

Sandcasters are also quite a bit cheaper, although my experience of 
designing warships in High Guard has the engines as the big cost, and 
weaponary as the cheap bit.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 02:02:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: 1889 drives

On 04/17/97 at 03:50 PM,  Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU> said:

> Some persons have been talking about a SPACE:1889 game.  It is very
> fascinating and the ideas have been just great.  I have read a little
> about the game in Challenge magazines, but don't have it.  If one of the
> people on the list that knows about the game could help me out a bit, I'd
> appreciate it. 

I'm not an expert, but I'll give it a shot.

> If you could tell me a few things about the game, like:

> -what propells space craft??  

Etheral propellers.  Space 1889, postulates that classic aether actually
exists and above the atmosphere can be be interacted with using propellers. 
The energy to turn the screws comes from solar-boilers, and these are
effective out to just beyond the asteroids, not quite to Jupiter.  Of
course, inventers can discover "atom power" and extend the ship range out
to the outer planets, if you let them.

> How do they startravel, as opposed to space travel??

In standard 1889 you don't.

> and What is the scope of the game??  where does it take place? on just Mars
> and earth?

Pretty much, yes.  Include the jungles and swamps of Venus, the caves of
the moon and you've got the scope of the game.

The only other technological addition I recall is "liftwood."  A martian
wood that has a natural contra-gravity component..can only be grown on some
parts of mars.  

If you want to extend it to an interstellar scope, just add Jump Drive from
Traveller (or postulate that possible velocities exceed c once you get
beyond X distance from the sun) , and some sort of high-power lowish-tech
power source...I'd choose water powered "cold fusion" for this game's feel.

Now, the various nations of earth can expand across the local stellar
neighborhood, and your players can explore along with the expansion.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1217
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1218



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Conservation
Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn
Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))
Re: Strange Tech Combos
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re Travller Digest #1215 and #1216
Re: Milieu:1889
Genetics (Was Re: Gays in the Imperium)
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Jumpspace Aleph Theory (was Re: Infinity)
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?
Re: Where's Phil & Dixie (was Norris' sexual Orientation, et al.)
Re: Moon question
MT Task system? (Was: Re: Life is Hard in Traveller)
Re: Norris/Gay

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Conservation

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:41:32 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> Subject: Conservation
> 
> > From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> 
> > Well, whaddya know.  Back to the drawing boards we go.  Can any real
> > physicists explain what's going on here?  I'd rather expected the
> > KE-conservation trick to be frame invariant.
> 
>    Energy is /conserved/ in every reference frame, but it is not the
>    /same/ in every reference frame.  In one reference frame, an isolated
>    system may have 10 Joules of energy at some point in time; that means
>    it will have 10 J of energy at any point in time, assuming it stays
>    isolated.  In another reference frame, this same system will have 20J
>    of energy; this 20J will be conserved at every point of time,
>    provided you don't change your reference frame. IF YOU CHANGE YOUR
>    REFERENCE FRAME IN THE MIDDLE OF ANY PHYSICS PROBLEM, NO CONSERVATION
>    LAWS APPLY.  This little proviso in Newton's laws is often forgotten
>    by quite advanced students (and faculty), and leads to the infamous
>    "Twin" paradox, among many others.

OK, understood so far, which is why I was careful to stick with the
"ships's original rest frame" and "planet's original rest frame" in my
calculations.

>    In your post, you mention "Kinetic Energy" conservation; you probably
>    meant to say "Energy" conservation.  Just in case you didn't, let me
>    emphasize that kinetic energy is not conserved.

*sigh* Something about doing all those calculations blew verbal clarity
right out of my head.  Yes, that's what I meant, so far as I can tell. :)

>    Gee, this physics lesson was actually solicited.  That doesn't happen
>    very often!  Thanks!

Most welcome, and thank you as well.  Now, if I might presume upon your
further indulgence...

(a) In a classical rocket, the vessel tosses mass out the back, and thus
moves forward thanks to momentum conservation. 

(b) In a thruster-propelled ship using the "push on the star" dodge, the
vessel shoves a large mass backward, and thus moves forward thanks to
momentum conservation. 

I thought I understood, but it's clear I don't:  Why does (b) violate
energy conservation, but not (a)?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:09:45 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn

>...why keep skill levels at all when
>attribute + xps is your target number? Because the char gen system
>has skills? Then convert each skill to 3 xps and be done with it.

Skill levels are used as DMs in several tasks (Like JoAT and Brawling). I
prefer writing the skill levels down over having to recalculate them every
time you use them.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:13:44 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))

Brody Dunn wrote:

> >Imagine a farm kid from a TL4 world joins the Marines.....After four
> years, he
> >returns home, and starts improving things on the family farm using
> >techniques he learned in the INMF.  Enough of these vets, and you'll see a
> >slow, steady rise in TL.
> 
> hmmmmm - Could you go home again after all that exposure to the real
> Imperium.  Why not settle on a nice world?  But then again why not return
> home?

Missed that first post... Another senario with that same farm kid. After
his 4 years in the INMF he comes home and become a spokesman for the
local anti-tech movement, utilizing his military background to train and
help the militant anti-tech people... :)

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:11:40 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:39:06 +0000, you wrote:

> I don't see the problem with having high tech systems next to low 
> tech systems.
> 
> I mean, we're talking about solar systems here, and a parsec is a 
> long way away even given the technology and drives in Traveller.

A parsec away is *nothing*, considering that any starship has a
minimum of jump-1.  Any free trader can stop by, and according to the
Traveller universe, there are A LOT of them.

> We see this type of dichotomy in a lot of real life areas on 
> even much smaller scales.
> 
> Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different 
> tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same 
> contintent.

I wouldn't say that US and Mexico are "vastly" different in regards to
tech levels (2, maybe 3 points away at best).  Just because they don't
launch their own satellites or have a nuclear capability doesn't make
them low tech.  They simply have better places to spend their limited
resources.  They are definitely a poorer country, and this does
contribute in some part to the country's perceived "tech level".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:11:38 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:19:50 -0400, you wrote:

> I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
> stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
> reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
> don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
> and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.
> 
> I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
> anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
> about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
> peoples time.

You do not subscribe to a mailing list just so that you can listen to
people discuss things that *you* what, you subscribe to a mailing list
so that you can listen to people discuss what *they* want.  If you
wish to begin a discussion about grav tanks or fusion rifles, start
one.  Do not try and tell others to cease discussing something that
you are NOT interested in just so that they can initiate a subject
that you ARE interested in.

Like it or not, The Norris issue /is/ Traveller related, and Traveller
issues are what this list exists for.  If you don't want to read it,
either skip the articles, set up a kill file to filter it out, or come
back in a week or two when the subject will most likely be exhausted.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:11:37 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:15:32 +1000 (EST), you wrote:

> An example I am a scientists in the
> 18th century, I live in England, I count every Swan I can find, every Swan
> I see is white, therefore I propose all Swans are white.  Other scientists
> agree so we make a law, "all swans are white".  We then discover
> Australia, I decide to visit Australia, and I'm shocked to find there are
> black Swans.  Law broken.

Nope.  Your initial conclusion just wasn't specific enough.  If you
only searched one domain (ie: England), then your claim should have
read "all swans in *England* are white", or more precisely "all *Mute
Swans* (cygnus olor) in *England* are white".

Of course, if you happened to come across a Mute Swan in England that
is green with three eyes, you would be foolish (and incorrect) to
immediately disregard your claim.  Instead, science asks us to study
the green three-eyed Mute Swan more carefully to find out /why/ it
does not fit into your claim.  Perhaps it is a different species, or
maybe it has something to do with the nuclear powerplant that
travelled back from the future that is now located up stream :P

In either case, your original scientific claim is not *wrong*, it just
wasn't tightly defined enough.  Perhaps it should have read "all Mute
Swans (cygnus olor) in England *that do not live near a nuclear
powerplant that travelled back from the future* are white".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:31:00 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(communications))

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:15:03 +1200, you wrote:

> I see TL as being the level that the world could maintain if cut off from
> interstellar contact.  A world may import higher TL gear, but it's the
> ability to manufacture and repair that counts.

This is NOT a good definition if you've played in the TNE Virus Era.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:30:58 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Strange Tech Combos

On Thu, 17 Apr 97 17:12:00 -0500, you wrote:

[SOME GOOD STUFF SNIPPED]

> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.=
com
> ---
>  =FE OLXWin 1.00b =FE Walt Disney is in suspended animation.

I'm not really interested in anything you have to say, Jeff.  I just
like reading your .sig's.  Keep on posting :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:45:12 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:13:28 -0700 (MST), you wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:
> >
> > > It was just an idea, and one that obviously needs more work.  I was
> > > just hypothesizing as to how a PC could acquire a MCr170+ ship through
> > > mustering out.  But on a similar scale, WHY would the scout service
> > > loan out ships to retired scouts when they could be using them
> > > themselves?
> >
> > Also, with huge numbers of dispersed scout/COURIERS floating around, I'll
> > bet thet the Imperium is very well covered should a fire erupt on the
> > frontier; there's lots of them to press into service, without having to
> > maintain a huge ongoing payroll. When the IISS buys scout/couriers on the
> > scale that they do, I'll bet they come a LOT cheaper than even QSDS ships.
> 
> This doesn't say much for the proposal Ian mentioned, that no Navy
> would "lend" out Q-ships to "retired" personnel due to the fear that
> they could be used against them of for criminal activity.
> 

I think we are both right ... the Imperium doesnt mind all these 100t Scout/Couriers 
floating around, because they are pretty useless for piracy and so on - it just cant 
mount enough guns to be a threat to your average lightly-armed freighter.

On the other hand, a Q-ship would be a *lethal* pirate, and depending on it's armament 
it could be a threat to Naval Escorts of one type or another as well.

I think it is a "balance of risk" thing ... also, on the theme of Q-ships, why not refit 
the cargo bay into a fighter bay ... blow the doors off, and out fly a couple of Navy 
fighters ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:52:10 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

> Your assertion that there is a greater infinity of points in a 3D space
> than a 2D space is incorrect.  The number of points in a line is the
> same as the number of points in a plane is the same as the number of
> points in a solid is the same as the number of irrational numbers.
> 
> Here is an example of one such mapping.  Take a 2-D plane, with
> coordinates X and Y.  Let x and y be decimal digits of X and Y (we're
> working in base ten here).  Form the irrational number:
> 
> I = 0.xyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxy...
> 
> made by interchanging digits from X and Y.  Remember, X and Y can be
> irrational, so they go on forever.  However, I is irrational too, so
> it goes on forever as well.
> 

Actually, this mapping does not map all points on line uniquely to plane.

Remember, some real numbers do have do presentations. 0.999... (forever
nines) = 1.000... (forever zeroes). So every real number which ends in an
endless string of nines can be represented as a number ending in an
endless string of zeroes.

Proof? 

x = 0.999999....
10x = 9.99999...
10x - x = 9.000.... = 9x -> x = 1.0000....

Result : one point in 2-space is mapped onto two points in 3-space.
(0.1999999.. (2d) -> 0.19999.., 0.9999... (3d) and
 0.2000000.. (2d) -> 0.20000.., 0.0000... (3d) )
There are mappings which circumvent this problem, but alas, my teacher in
Helsinki University of Technology did not remember any of them when he
tried to map line onto plane.. B-)

Mikko Parviainen
mvparvia@cc.hut.fi

My opinions are not my employee's opinions.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:03:54 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Re Travller Digest #1215 and #1216

TO ANYONE WHO LOST A DIGEST BECAUSE OFF MY HIDEOUS POSTS

PLEASE EMAIL ME AT

brody@intersol.co.nz

AND I WILL SEND YOU A CLEAN COPY WITHOUT ALL THE EXTRA STUFF IN IT.

And again my apologies and I will try to make sure it never happens again.  I must look like such a boob!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:29:55 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> I was actually putting a campain idea to paper concerning a planet lost
> during the Long Night.  The highest TL is 4, and maintained by an empire
> based on the British Empire at it's hayday.  Big revolvers, bolt action
> rifles, Zeppelins,  Lancers, and tea time.  Being a Solmani settled world,
> the primary human population is decended from Indian Subcontinent.  The TL
> 2-3 kingdoms in wilds are made up of the pale skinned barbarians.
> 
> A fun place for Milieu:0 Scouts to land...
> 
Given the uproar with the Science debate (which I am partly resposable
:-(  ), I was thinking of designing steam or desil powered spaceships
(with wooden hulls).

Premise 1 to justify this : Metal poor world, what metals have to be
allocated to power generation and ship frames.

Premise 2: Wooden hulls over a mettal frame, with a rubber coating to
keep air in. (It has the armour value of a wet sponge, but there is a
tree in Australia called "Ironbark" which is very tough [axes bounce off
it]. if this culture has acccess to this type of wood, it would have
good strength [but still no real armour])

Premise 3 : Vacuume tube computers! (or babbage engines, I tend to go to
vacuume tubes, because they have more computing power than an old Model
1bis :-)

Lets see what happens.

Darryl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Genetics (Was Re: Gays in the Imperium)

Sorry for one last post on the topic, but some of the ideas expressed here
sound just plain silly.  Folks have written about studies "proving" 
homosexuality is genetic.  These studies involve looking at the sexual
preference of individuals who have gay identical twins raised apart from
them. 

What's the sample size here, 10, maybe 20?  How many folks like that can
there be?  With a small enough (like under a hundred or maybe even under
several hundred) sample size any data you find is totally *meaningless*. 

It may be genetic (something I seriously doubt, humans are not hard-wired
like birds, we have lots of flexibility in our behavior) but studies like
this aren't a useful to answer the question. 

Bad statistics (and I've seen a whole lot of these by social scientists
who should know better) and a belief that *everything* *must* be genetic
have produced a whole lot of dubious findings about human behavior in the
past few decades.  Genetics is vastly over-rated wrt human behavior.
Distrust sociobiologists, and watch their sample sizes, they sure don't. 

Sorry for the rant-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

- -Bi, Non-homophobic, Anthropologist

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:59:02 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

> 
> One of the things I don't like about the Traveller space combat 
> systems is that the combat turns are too long.  You only get one shot 
> at an enemy per battery in 10 minutes?
> That seems a little long to me.

> If I shorten the time/distance scales, how long does it take a ship's 
> laser to recharge before it can fire again.
> 
> Is this instantaneous?  6 seconds?  10 minutes?  What?
> 

The laser batteries do not fire just one shot during those 10 minutes.
Due to extremely long distances and the (relatively) small size of the
target one "shot" from a battery is in reality many shots spread around a
wide area, like a buck shot from a shotgun. 

Firing at Traveller space combat ranges is always a guessing game.
Consider, for example firing at a ship 4 light-seconds away (and thats
four hexes). First, the light (or any electromagnetic radiation) leaves
the enemy ship. Four seconds later, you detect this light and, thanks to
your TL27 fluid-optibiological computer, fire your lasers 0.02 picoseconds
later. The laser beams travel at the speed of light to the enemy vessel,
but this takes another four seconds. 
Let's say that the enemy vessel has speed of 5. This means it travels five
light-seconds in ten minutes. That is, ten thousand kilometers in the
eight seconds from seeing the ship somewhere and getting lasers back to
it. The enemy ship is not likely to be kilometers long (this is not Star
Wars) so it moves quite fast relative to its size.

So it is very hard to hit even if the range is so short. This is why the
lasers fire multiple shots.

(I think this was explained in FF&S)

Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

WARNING: Do NOT look into laser with remaining eyeball.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:51:56 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Jumpspace Aleph Theory (was Re: Infinity)

From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>

>So if I have correctly understood your theory, in real space (Aleph 0) the
>particles can be in distinct energy level (as we know). And in Jspace 1
>(Aleph 1) those particles can assume any level (As Aleph 1 is the number of
>irrationnal numbers? Is it what you thought or am I to restricitve. If I'm
>correct, the matter/energy should have different properties?

	Yes... and, think about the following: In normal space, what we see can
usually be approximated by "continuum" situations... we think the matter is
sort of continuous, although each body is formed by a finite (although
large) number of atoms. So, the shape of normal (aleph-0) space resembles
something like aleph-1. What would Jspace-1 seem? Probably, something that
could be described as Aleph-2... the cardinal of the set curves... you see
some sort of mess with curving rays all around... and your mind cannot
really cope with it, you are an aleph-0 creature. If you view Jspace-n,
n>=2, you just cannot
understand the difference with Jspace-2.
	(Btw, just understanding all the implications of Jumpspace theory/
/transfinite numbers may be enough to go insane... it's said that a Solomani
mathematician called Kantor went insane when discovering the theory, centuries
before the discovery of Jspace...)

>>        The lanthanum grid has the effect of exponentially increasing the
>>variance of meta-quantum situations in the particles of a body. In the
>>limit, the body cannot be contained in its space and so "jumps" into the
>>appropriate one.

>The regular view on the grid is that it protects the ship from the J-space
>(IMHO again). In this case the inside of the ship is cannot be protected
>from the effect. If it would be it couln't "Jump".

	Ooops.. true. I did speak too fast. Change the above paragraph to:

	When starting jump, the lanthanum grid exponentially increases the
variance of meta-quantum situations in its particles (the particles of the
grid). In the limit, the grid cannot be contained in its space and so
"jumps" into the appropriate one, along with a bubble of normal space
containing the ship.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:02:27 -0400
From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

>> I'm also somewhat confused by your comment that you are interested in

>> Imperial politics but don't wan't to hear about the position of gays
in
>> the Imperium.  Gays in the Imperium _is_ a policial discussion (as
well
>> as a social one) and we got into this discussion by commenting on the

>> underlying subtexual evidence, in cannonical Traveller material, that

>> Archduke Norris seemed to be gay. The fact that the ruler of an area
>> (the Regency) choose not to marry (& thus enter into a political
>> alliance) is about the most political question there is.

I would respectfully disagree.  In my campaign I never really considered
the position of Gays in the Imperium, it just never that important to
me.  But I must also admit I was not the kind of GM who emphasized
heterosexual encounters either.  Before it was mentioned on this mailing
list, I never even gave a thought that Norris was gay, when I was
reading about Norris I was always more interested in what his relations
with the Zhodani or Aslan were like.  Or his performance in the 5th
Frontier War.  That was the stuff I played Traveller for.

>> May I respectfully suggest that those of you who are unwilling to
accept
>> the evidence that Norris was gay be willing to consider the
possibility
>> that there are those of us out there who know a _lot_ more on this
>> subject than you do and are more likely to notice this sort of thing.

>> Norris set off my gaydar before I even knew what the term meant.

And what Tech level can one acquire Gaydar at?

>> To me Traveller has always been about an optimistic future and one of

>> the things that made it optimistic was the Third Imperiums lack of
>> discrimination. When I bought my 3 little black books in 1978 at the
age
>> of 12 one of the first things I noticed was a message of toleration
of
>> diversity "Nowhere in these rules is a specific requirement
established
>> that any charecter (player or non-player) be of a specific gender or
>> race.  Any charecter is potentially of any race or of either sex " -
>> Classic Traveller 1st Ed Book 1 pg 8

Traveller is different things to different people, I guess that's the
real beauty of the game, I'll shut up now.

sturm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:02:27 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

>From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>

>AAAAGGGGHHHH!
>I concede that I only play with statistics and
>higher levels of mathematical theory drive me mad!

        He he he... if you are being driven mad, that could mean you are
starting to *understand* how the universe(s) really work... believe us, we
will explain you a Real Maddening Jumpspace Theory... as maddening as the
jumpspace itself.

From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
>Are there any mathematicians on the list?

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
>        I asked recently the same question. From the answers I got, yes, a
>grand total of TWO mathematicians by degrees (Scott Ellsworth and me),
>although three more people wished to be counted as half-mathematicians...

From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>Though this was heading towards the area of mathematics I never studied.

From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>My BA is in mathematics from Trinity College Dublin.

	OK, so there are at least two graduated mathematicians on the list, and a
lot more people that are "almost mathematicians"... forget the count.
	Now, let's talk about the Mathematician Career in Traveller... obviously,
we're not covered in the Scholar Career. But, first, let's discuss the
Mathematics Skill in Traveller: it could be used as a "wild-card" in
Science-related tasks, abstract research, etc.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:47:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?

In mail you write:

> How about Traveller: 1950 where it's like they thought 1950 would be like
> back in the 40's?  Complete with "Wagon-Wheel" space stations.  A few years
> ago the Smithsonian did an exibite that would have made execellent source
> material for such a thing.
>
> The main problem I see is this might be hard to find players for.

Just have it be a system that's being re-contacted in Milieu 0. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:00:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Where's Phil & Dixie (was Norris' sexual Orientation, et al.)

In mail you write:

> Y'know, the comments about TSR's demise and Norris' sexual orientation
> makes me wonder if Phil Foglio is lurking in the wings...
> Hi Guys!  This Month, we FINALLY do Sex in Traveller!

Go to your local comic shop and ask for copies of Phil Foglio's
XXXenophile. There's a reason it's got all those X's. And several of
the stories have been SF.

I recall the one about a freak mishap that destroys a ship, forcing the
crew into a lifepod. The pod is opaque from the inside, but transparent
from the outside (ie you can see in, but they can't see out). They
figure it'll be several weeks before they get picked up. And they
decide to have fun while waiting....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:23:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Moon question

This looks like an interesting idea for ATM 0 worlds!

[re-mailed to you from rec.arts.sf.science]

[the original seemed to come from jorj@wsii.com]

 In _The Millennial Project_ by Marshall T. Savage, the weight/
 pressure/filtering trio was handled by using a double-walled
 shallow dome (almost flat) across craters, with 2.5 meters of
 water between the two membranes, with the outer membrane also
 gold-foil coated.  The water filters radiation, its weight
 balances out pressure forces leaving little strain on the dome
 material, and it can be circulated to help keep temperatures
 constant across the dome.  Most dwellings are built into the
 crater walls or are underground, as well, so that for the part
 of the day you're not "outside" you have additional shielding.
- -=-
 Jorj.Strumolo@chowda.com * Fido 1:323/140 * jorj@wsii.com
                   
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:52:32 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: MT Task system? (Was: Re: Life is Hard in Traveller)

>From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)

>If you were around for the Great Task System thread about a month ago you
(Snip)
>However, there were two systems that did work well in playtest, and were
>fairly simple to implement. One was KBv1.1 (which eventually became
>KBv2.0), and the other was one based on MegaTraveller. In that system (the
>author of which I forget) you rolled 2 dice against a target number

>You can give this system a try, but I gave up on it. KBv2.0 survived a
>pretty ruthless evolutionary battle between task systems because, in my
>experience, it was the best one.

        I agree that KBv2.0 is an excellent system... but my *personal*
tastes are against rolling more than 3 dice and having two-digit numbers
measuring characters experience... It seems I missed this system based on
MT. Could someone forward it to me, please?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:28:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Norris/Gay

In mail you write:

> Okay, this begs the question, just what is the position of gays in Imperial
> Society? Is it a big thing or only asked when figuring out whether to make
> up one bed or two for guests?

I think it's more of a "every ref has to handle it himself". 

I can see a wide range of possibilities. 

0. only licensed, different sex relationships are legal (some places
   are like this right now)
1. same sex relationships are *very* illegal as well as socially
   unacceptable. (lots of places in the world right now)
2. same sex relationships are illegal, but winked at (British upper
   class :-)
3. same sex relationships are legal, but frowned on (current state in
   even the most liberal parts of the world)
4. sex of partners is irrelevant (the hoped for state)
5. different sex relationships are legal but frowned on, except for
   reproduction (Ancient Greece)
6. different sex relationships are illegal, but winked at.
7. different sex relationships are illegal.
8. Only one sex is *allowed* (Bujold's "Ethan of Athos")

You know, flesh this out a bit, and it'd make a good subsection under
law level!

You land on a level 8 world and only the women are allowed off the
ship. Or maybe only the men. The Vargr don't count under the local
laws. :-)

If anyone is *really* interested, it might be fun to work out some of
these "law-level breakdowns IG is afraid to tell you about"
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1218
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1219



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Antimatter containment
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1208
Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)
Re: [Sorry] and a question.
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
FW: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)
Journal 26 & Citizens
Re: What is science?
Re: 1889
Vilani names
Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at 
Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Journal 26 & Citizens
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: [Sorry] and a question.
Re: Gays, gimme a break
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:15:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Antimatter containment

In mail you write:

>         I remember reading an article several years ago about the theoretical
> possibility of storing antimatter in the interstices of a crystalline
> matrix. I don't recall how the author proposed getting the antiatoms IN or
> OUT of the storage crystal, but once there, it was supposedly quite secure.

Part of the trick is that you aren't storing anti-atoms, just
anti-protons. So the "electron cloud" in the crystal helps.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:05:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

In mail you write:

> I had a game a long time ago (Star Force) that used 3D mapping.  It had
> systems on the plane as white, below the plane as red and above the plane as
> blue.  The systems had a plus or minus number associated with them that
> showed how far above or below the plan it was.  Their was a formula for
> determining distances. Quite simple.

I've got that. Trouble is, try determining which systems are within
distance X of where you are. You know that they are all within X hexes,
but not all systems within X hexes are within X distance. So you have
to check all of them. <yech>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:08:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1208

In mail you write:

>>   Very true.  It /is/ possible to design a thruster plate which conserves
>>   both energy and momentum in all reference frames, but they require
>>   about 1000 times the power input of the canonical thruster plates.
>
> Could you give me a clue as to how? I'm baffled as to how that might work
> (except for photon drives, of course...)

Consider, if the thruster has to push against a planet or star, then
both the momentum and energy will balance, and should do so in all
frames. But power required goes up exponentially (literally) with
velocity, making them fairly useless except for specialized uses.

Remember, pushing on a star or planet gives an equal but opposite
reaction. It's just wasteful to keep accelerating the same mass. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:23:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Q-ships (decoy ships)

In mail you write:

>> It was just an idea, and one that obviously needs more work.  I was
>> just hypothesizing as to how a PC could acquire a MCr170+ ship through
>> mustering out.  But on a similar scale, WHY would the scout service
>> loan out ships to retired scouts when they could be using them
>> themselves?  
>
> Because scouts never really retire...notice the restrictions regarding
> getting your ships overhauled at scout bases, where you're debriefed.
> Also, with huge numbers of dispersed scout/COURIERS floating around, I'll
> bet thet the Imperium is very well covered should a fire erupt on the
> frontier; there's lots of them to press into service, without having to
> maintain a huge ongoing payroll. When the IISS buys scout/couriers on the
> scale that they do, I'll bet they come a LOT cheaper than even QSDS ships.

Also, consider that all these retired scouts provide excellent "cover"
for intel ops by scouts who are *not* actually retired, but instead are
working undercover. If they get into trouble, the IISS has "plausible
deniability". After all, consider what your players have done with
their ships. Could intel agents get into any worse trouble?

> Letting scouts retire with a ship is a perfect way of keeping a huge fleet
> ready to mobilize anywhere they're needed.

And to have *lots* of "free" intel, as well as cover for all *sorts* of
tricks. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:08:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Sorry] and a question.

In mail you write:

> Now my question, and I promise I will not abuse, heckel, attack or
> dismember anyone who answers, how is hyperspace and "Jumping" explained in
> Traveller? or is it just hand waved.

It started out as strictly handwaved. Then they started adding details.
I'll try to add details more or less in the order the game did.

You engage your jump drive, it eats a lot of fuel, very fast, and you
wind up in another space called jumpspace. A week later you pop out,
hopefully where you intended to. There's a maximum "jump" possible,
which depends on your drive.

They later decided that higher jump numbers required different
jumpspaces. And that the time of a jump varied.

Somewhere along the line they came up with the "jump bubble", a bubble
of normal space that is kept around the ship while it is in jump, to
protect it from jumpspace. Contacting the edge of the bubble is not
good for you. Supposedly, anything that hits the edge of the bubble
gets precipitated into normal space, one atom at a time. 

There are other variations dealing with things like the jump grid
"glowing" before jump entry and after jump exit. Not everyone agrees
about this "jump flash".

On the list we've argued about possible details and explanations. Some
things *have* to happen simply to avoid messy physics problems, thus
the gravity wave at jump entry and exit. Others are attempts to explain
things like the "one week" duration in a way that "feels right". Best
bet on that one seems to be that the jump drive "charges" the jump grid
with some sort of energy, and you emerge from jumpspace when the charge
drops to a specific level. 

But jump drive is still mostly handwaving, and *I* would like to get a
bit more in the way of *details* about *what* it does, *how* can wait.
But there's *nothing* that says how accurately you can jump. That is,
how close in *space* you can come to where you aim. We do have figures
for time variance, and for misjump. <sigh>

ps. I try not to make typos, but they happen, often embarassingly. But
it *really* helps if you make sure that your sentences are coherent. If
they are, we can figure out the typos. But if the sentence structure is
gone, we can't figure out the typos *or* the sentence. Ok?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:50:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

In mail you write:

> At 08:14 am 04/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Your assertion that there is a greater infinity of points in a 3D space
>>than a 2D space is incorrect.  The number of points in a line is the
>>same as the number of points in a plane is the same as the number of
>>points in a solid is the same as the number of irrational numbers.
>>
>>Here is an example of one such mapping.  Take a 2-D plane, with
>>coordinates X and Y.  Let x and y be decimal digits of X and Y (we're
>>working in base ten here).  Form the irrational number:
>>
>>I = 0.xyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxy...
>>
>>made by interchanging digits from X and Y.  Remember, X and Y can be
>>irrational, so they go on forever.  However, I is irrational too, so
>>it goes on forever as well.
>>
>>Now, move to 3D space.  Let X, Y and Z be coordinates in a solid.
>>x, y and z are digits of the above, as before.  Now read I as:
>>
>>I = 0.xyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyz...
>
>     Hmmm ... on second thought, I've got some serious doubts/questions about
> this. How do you start the mapping? I.e. what becomes the first "x" after
> the decimal in I, and what becomes the first "y?" Is it simply the first
> digit in X and Y? Then what's the difference between (100,200), which maps
> to (0.120000, or 0.12), and (1,2), which maps to (0.12)? And hence it's NOT
> a one-to-one mapping. There are an infinite number of 2D points mapping to
> the same 1D point, which again shows that 2D is a higher-order infinity
> than 1D. Likewise 3D and 2D.

(100,200) maps to 120000. (1,2) maps to 12.

>    And it would seem to me that a "true" mapping would be independent of the
> base or method of REPRESENTING the numbers, which is simply our way of
> describing the "concept" for example, of "10." Using decimal (1dec,2dec)
> maps to (0.12dec). In binary (1dec,2dec) is (1b, 10b), and maps to
> (0.1010b), which is NOT equal to (0.12dec), it's equal to (0.625dec).

You can use *any* base. And the fact that the numbers stretch to
infinity is irrelevant. When "matching" infinities, all you need is a
*rule* that produces one-to-one mapping. It doesn't matter that it
would take an infinite amount of time.

>     While I'm not a mathematician, I tend to doubt any mapping which depends
> on the way the numbers are represented. Just because GFl'qrk comes from a
> 12-fingered race, if he/she/it tries to map the same point from 3D into 2D,
> he/she/it should get the same 2D point that I do, even though he's
> REPRESENTING the point using base-12, and I'm representing it using base-10.

No, he *doesn't* have to map it to the *same* point. He just has to map
to a *unique* point. The fact that they are different just shows that
there's more than one way to map 2D to 1D.

Currently these are the known infinities:

Aleph-null: the infinity of the whole numbers, also of the rational numbers
 Aleph-one: the infinity of the points in a line (or the irrational numbers,
            or the points in a plane, or in 3d space or 4d space, etc)
         C: the number of different curves that can be drawn on a plane

C *may* be Aleph-two, but all that is known is that it is bigger than
aleph-one, until they can prove that there isn't an infinity bigger
than aleph-one, but smaller than C.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:16:45 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: FW: Starship Displacement Tonnage

Merrick Says

>> Fighters - Very Small (< 100tons) - very fast, incapable of Jump - area
>> denial, supression, fleet security and missile launchers

>"very fast"  Again, ditch this notation as it makes no sense at all.

Now what I mean by fast and very fast varies by role.  So really I guess it 
makes no sense.  I am fully aware of the limitations and operations of 
thrust based acceleration and it's relationship to velocity.

But what I mean by Fast is that for Spaceships they have a large 
acceleration rating - i.e. they can change velocity rapidily and so would 
be more likely to streak by slower accelerating ships and be better able to 
react and "Dodge" about in relation an arbitrary reference such as it's 
target.

For Starships by fast I mean able to jump to it's destination rapidly. 
 This is in relation to travelling large numbers of parsecs quite quickly. 
 i.e. J3,4,5 and 6.  A jump ship can be said to be fast if it is able to 
travel many parsecs quickly.  It also has the effect of being better able 
to travel in a straight line as it were because it does not have to use 
mains.

Hope this clarifies much of what I saif earlier.


>That WinMail glop is gonna make somebody mad, i bet :-)

You better believe it - and it was entirely accidental :(

Brody Dunn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:30:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What is Science? (was Re: Realism vs. Play Value)

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:
>
>> > environment, based on the deductions and inferences which can be made ,
>> > and the general laws which can be formulated from reproducable
>> > observatiosn and measurements of events within teh universe.
>> 
>> Correct.  But science further demands that we continue to test, poke,
>> and prod, until there is NO DOUBT left in the "theory".  Only then is
>> it considered "fact".  Aristotle did not have this thoroughness.
>
> Which is impossible, so your definition fails.  How can you determine for
> sure (100%) that something is right? 

What makes you think that science is about being *sure*?

> An example I am a scientists in the
> 18th century, I live in England, I count every Swan I can find, every Swan
> I see is white, therefore I propose all Swans are white.  Other scientists
> agree so we make a law, "all swans are white".  We then discover
> Australia, I decide to visit Australia, and I'm shocked to find there are
> black Swans.  Law broken.

No. Law revised to "All English swans are white. Australian Swans may
be black."

See? The old law still applies in the areas where it had been tested.
It only fails in *other* areas. So it turns out to be a "special case"
of a more general law.

> You can never ever have "NO DOUBT".  Nothing is for sure.  You can get
> something to a workable point, but thats it.  Thats my only beef, everyone
> who has responded so far except for one other poster thinks science cant
> be "wrong", its infalliable.  Well, surprise surprise it CAN be wrong.
> That above example about the swans is a real life one.

We never said that science "can't be wrong". In fact, the whole
*thrust* of science is about trying to *dis*prove proposed theories. 

What we *are* saying is that IN THE AREAS WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN TESTED
theories are *not* going to be disproven. Just like your swans example,
discovery of black swans in Australia *doesn't* change the fact that
swans in England are white. The "laws" get *expanded*, not thrown out.

> As I said thats my only real beef.  Not even the Aristotle argument really
> matters as different schools will consider him a "scientists" while others
> wont, BUT science can be, and has been wrong.  No human endeavour is 100%
> right, the closest thing I can think of is maths, and thats about it.

Science is "wrong" all the time. But it is wrong in certain *specific*
ways. Namely, the new discoveries *don't* invalidate the old
observations. Occasionally, in cases where its hard to observe things,
we find that there were mistakes in observations. But nobody is going
to find that gravity quits working under "normal" conditions. They may
find that the way it works under unusual conditions is different, but
that the difference is in the 6th decimal place under normal conditions.

Science is *not* a static process of "this is the way it is". It's a
dynamic process of "To the best of or knowledge, and under the
circumstances we've tested, the universe works this way".

What we object to is *not* that our knowledge may turn out to be
incomplete. That goes with the territory. It's your idea that new
discoveries will substantially change the rules as they apply under
conditions where we've already run tests. *That* is bullshit.

> I dont do that, I just dont like being attacked for no reason, nor do I
> like "Shakespearen scholars" writing me off when they seemingly dont know
> what there talking about.  It's just that conceited self-rightousness gets
> me.

Excuse me, but *you* are the one coming across as self-righteous. And
you were "attacked" because you were doing a damn good job of avoiding
the issue every time someone called you on something. And that you are
quite willing to say we are wrong but when we point out possible (or
actual) errors in your statements, you aren't willing to discuss that,
instead you try a different angle of attack. If you are willing to
*discuss* things, then maybe you'll get better results.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:07:27 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Journal 26 & Citizens

Journal 26 was due in March; does anyone know when it will be released?

Has anyone registered with Citizens Of The Imperium (or tried to)?
I've tried but nothing has happened.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:04:47 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: What is science?

>UK schools teach thermodynamics in 6th form physics (ages 16-18), but
>not many people study physics -- TMLers excepted, before the email
>floods in.  Colleges and universities teach chemical thermodynamics
>in the first undergraduate year (or 2nd year HND).
 I'm not talking about teaching about it for physicists, it should be
taught to everybody in basic school, not how to perform calculations but
how it works just as basic newtonian physics is taught to every child (at
least in Sweden).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:51:49 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 1889

>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:48:44 -0700
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: 1889

>At 08:56 PM 4/15/97 -0400, Loren wrote:

>>Sometime, I must tell you of my Space: 1889 character, Edmund Blackadder, aka
>>"the Marshal Ney of Crime" and his henchman Baldric, aka "the Chester Alan
>>Arthur of Crime" 

>Brings to mind Quartermaster Sergeant-Major Alexander Smithers, Queen's
>Dragoons, who was the epitome of an iron spined British NCO.  The man didn't
>speak, he barked.  He trembled in outrage at the mere presence of forgien
>troops.  And his uniform was always immaculate.

The most useful command for any British junior officer is of course
"Carry on Sergeant Major"

>QSM Smithers was designed as the manservant to Major Pith-Downry, a
>completely useless upper-class twit.  Together, we explored Her Majesty's
>possessions, always ending up in one dnagerous situation after another.

>I only played him for a short time, but he remains one of my all time favor
>ite PCs.

>Hmmm... Milieu:1889, anyone?

>- --
>+-------------------------------------------------+
>|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
>|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
>|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
>|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
>|*************************************************|
>|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
>|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
>|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
>+-------------------------------------------------+

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:05:39 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Vilani names

As a followon to the "do Vilani name ships?" thread, in my campaign
they name bits of land, but not oceans.  The thinking is that since
the water moves around, how can you ever point to the same bit of
ocean twice?  I came up with this after looking at the maps of Enaaka
in the Deneb sector.  The continents have Vilani names, but the oceans
are all named in Anglic.

It is also interesting that in the 3rd Imperium, X-boats are not named
but numbered.  Maybe the Vilani are similar to the Idirians in
_Consider Phlebas_, with their "Hand of God 489" or whatever it was.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at 

In a message dated 97-04-18 02:25:38 EDT, you write:

<< While some cultural aspects to technology exchange may hinder advances I 
 would hope that in most cases the science behind the technology is easily 
 available.  The concept I'm trying here is that most Science is readily 
 accessible and that  if you had enough money and resources you could just 
 start a TL15 society on an empty world and baring any calamity it could be 
 self sufficient.  This is implied in the World Builders Handbook which 
 details Colony design and stuff.  This would mean that any world could 
 quite readily change to any tech level given the resources.  These are most 
 likely beyond the reach of all worlds - but also implies that many difering 
 tech levels could exist of the same world - I would supect that the single 
 UWP is becoming a millstone around the neck of world designers and that 
 very few worlds are made up of single world spanning government (but as the 
 average population is in the Hundreds of Thousands perhaps they are WSG). 
  Hmm I'm a bit off track here but I hope you can see my point.
  >>
I don't have a problem with homogenous society simply because the worlds are
"Settled" except for the few origin worlds.  

There is the balkanized government type and that will account for messed up
TL, law, politics etc.  Balkanized worlds could result from a colonized world
factionalizing or a planet of origin like earth today.  I think the codes are
fine but you have to flesh out the details.  There is more than one way to
describe the codes in most cases.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:32:28 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

At 09:50 pm 04/17/97 PST, you wrote:
>(100,200) maps to 120000. (1,2) maps to 12.

	Um, actually, his mapping goes into decimals only, i.e. the mapped point I
is 0.something.

>>    And it would seem to me that a "true" mapping would be independent of
the
>> base or method of REPRESENTING the numbers, which is simply our way of
>> describing the "concept" for example, of "10." Using decimal (1dec,2dec)
>> maps to (0.12dec). In binary (1dec,2dec) is (1b, 10b), and maps to
>> (0.1010b), which is NOT equal to (0.12dec), it's equal to (0.625dec).
>
>You can use *any* base. And the fact that the numbers stretch to
>infinity is irrelevant. When "matching" infinities, all you need is a
>*rule* that produces one-to-one mapping. It doesn't matter that it
>would take an infinite amount of time.

	I wasn't worried about the infinite amount of time. I was worried that the
EXACT same point maps into DIFFERENT points depending on the numeric base
you use.

>>     While I'm not a mathematician, I tend to doubt any mapping which
depends
>> on the way the numbers are represented. Just because GFl'qrk comes from a
>> 12-fingered race, if he/she/it tries to map the same point from 3D into 2D,
>> he/she/it should get the same 2D point that I do, even though he's
>> REPRESENTING the point using base-12, and I'm representing it using
base-10.
>
>No, he *doesn't* have to map it to the *same* point. He just has to map
>to a *unique* point. The fact that they are different just shows that
>there's more than one way to map 2D to 1D.

	I've got trouble swallowing this. A point on the plane has its own unique
identity, regardless of the coordinate system and numeric base I use to
refer to it. Likewise,a point on the line has its own unique identity. So
if point A maps to point B, it should do so regardless of numeric base.

	Otherwise, using the example of jumpspace which started this whole
discussion off, if I go from a point in R3 to a point in J2, and QW'rkl,
the 12-tentacled being, performs EXACTLY the same calculations in base-12,
he'll go from the SAME point in R3 to a completely different point in J2!
So if I don't like where I go in J2, I should try doing my math in base-12?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:34:17 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

Yo Folks,
    Lets put things in a little perspective here: TSR is owned by _one
woman_. It is not a public company, there is no board of managers or
collective body of ownership. So, the _decision_ to sell was made by _one_
person. It is not like they are declaring bankruptcy or anything.
  _One_ person can have many reasons for selling. From what I've heard from
people (designers) who have worked with them in the past year there has
been a great degree of dissatisfaction amongst the employees with the
managing director. (She is also the grand daughter of whoever invented Buck
Rogers and owns that trademark as well. That's why you occasionally see TSR
try to spit out a Buck Rogers game.)
  _I_ suspect that the trademark wasn't being as profitable as she would
have liked, she got tired of bitching employees, and when WotC offered her
a lump sum, she took it and said good riddance.
  One could see this as a good thing. With a caring management you might
have smoother internal operations. Bringing out a new Campaign Setting for
AD&D set in the Magic Universe could revitalise both the RPG market and the
CCG market.
  I tend to be more cynical. I fear the instability in transition. As
others have put it here, the sales of AD&D have kept Role Playing games on
the shelves in many shops. If TSR blips at all in their output then that
cuts significantly into the profits of shops (I won't even discuss what it
does to speciality shops!) forcing them to reduce the shelfspace they
devote to RPGs. And, gee, if they reduce the shelf space then it isn't AD&D
that is going to be falling off the ends, the lesser production will still
sell as well. It is going to be the marginals that go.
  Like Traveller.
  Face it: we're a marginal game. There has been no publicity blitz for The
New and Improved Traveller. There is no buzz in the marketplace. No new
gamers are buying the product. Just us old dinosaurs. If IG can keep its
margins low then it can exist selling a mainly mail-order product. But it
will never be able to afford the advertising necessary to grow the product
base.
  So don't laugh to heartily at this motion.
            Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:05:30 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Journal 26 & Citizens

Alan M. Nuss wrote:
> 
> Has anyone registered with Citizens Of The Imperium (or tried to)?
> I've tried but nothing has happened.
> 
> Alan
- ----I am allegedly registered with Citizens of the Imperium,but I`ve
heard nothing.Any one know how you get your money back?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

In a message dated 97-04-17 14:16:31 EDT, Eric Homes wrote:

<< 
 Also, I assumed that Scottwas using metric tonnes of displacement.  Correct
 me if I'm wrong. >>

You are quite right!  Metric tons of displacement.  My hierarchy of Capital
ships follows(in Traveller dt(H2)):

Super Dreadnought(1000Kt);  Dreadnought(700Kt); Heavy Battleship(400Kt);
Battleship(300Kt); Heavy Carrier(250Kt); Battlecruiser(150Kt); Fleet
Carrier(100Kt); Heavy Cruiser(75Kt); Armored Cruiser(50Kt); Strike
Carrier(50Kt); Strike Cruiser (40Kt); Light Cruiser(25Kt); Light
Carrier(25Kt); Heavy Destroyer(15Kt);  War Destroyer(10Kt);  Line
Destroyer(7500t);  Destroyer Escort(3000t);  Corvette(1500t).

I leave canon Traveller ships as they are.  The posted information is only
for military ships of Mileu 1100.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:07:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sorry] and a question.

In a message dated 97-04-18 09:13:58 EDT, you write:

<< But jump drive is still mostly handwaving, and *I* would like to get a
 bit more in the way of *details* about *what* it does, *how* can wait.
 But there's *nothing* that says how accurately you can jump. That is,
 how close in *space* you can come to where you aim. We do have figures
 for time variance, and for misjump. <sigh> >>
 

For another viewpoint on Jumpspace read Melissa Scott's "Roads of Heaven"
Trilogy.  She also has a book out called "Trouble and Her Friends"  for a
good concept on computer development.  Another computer development twist by
same author in "Night Sky Mine"  where things in the net become alive and
mutate into other living creatures.  Its very interesting stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:05:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break

sturm wrote:

>I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
>stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
>reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
>don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
>and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.
>
>I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
>anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
>about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
>peoples time.
>
>sturm

Uh-oh, the class far right winger has spoken.

Anything that's relevant to providing color to a campaign is relevant,
sturm. I started a thread a week or two ago about the color of the
atmosphere on very-thin tainted planets. A somewhat obscure subject, but
one that could inspire additional detail in individual refs' adventures. I
don't think that anyone should try to "police" what constitutes a
discussion subject on this list.

While personally, I don't spend a whole lot of time on issues of sexuality
in my campaign, it is evident from the high volume of discussion on this
topic that quite a few people on this board find the topic interesting.

So if you don't like it, just gloss over them and move on instead of trying
to rain on others' parade.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml



- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
Knowledge Products                       cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:28:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

In a message dated 97-04-18 04:57:53 EDT, eris@pen.net(Eris Reddoch) wrote:

<< 
 Frankly, I'd prefer bringing the BC's, BB's, and BR's down a couple of
 notches rather than pushing the smaller ships up.
  >>
While, I agree that the idea of 1,000Kdt Super Dreadnoughts seems a bit much
in a role-playing session, consider the size of the 3I.  This empire spans
almost 11,000 star systems.  The Navy is the strong right arm of a decadent
society.  The citizens will want to see something impressive for their tax
dollars(and you can sure bet that a 1km long 1Mdt "Lord Imperial" class SDN
will make a helluva an impact contrasted with 200 5,000dt "battleships" or
even a few 100,000dt battleships).  There was a post for a 1Mdt DN
"Galaxia"(?) Class in the Missouri Archives that had so much armour(TNE terms
- - 5,600(?)) that only an equivalently sized ship could give it a run for the
money.  The Third Imperium was so wealthy that it could fund entire fleets of
such vessels at well below the standards set up in "World Tamers Handbook". 

We can't confuse capital ships with normal Traveller vessels.  The sight of a
simple 7,500dt Destroyer(J-4, 6Gs) or even a 1,500dt Corvette(J-2, 6Gs) ought
to throw the fear of God into the most foolhardy of Travellers.  Military
vessels are not standard plot foils.  They are kept on manuevers or at their
Depots(maintenance would be an immense task, fueling entire subsector
economies).  Travellers should at most encounter the Corvette which is
responsible for escorting larger commercial vessels, "Hercules" bulk
carriers(5,000dt).

Fire away!!

"If you can't dazzle them with style, riddle them with bullets"
Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1219
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1220



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: conservations
Re: CSC vs Emperor's Arsenal
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(co
RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(co
Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn
Re: MT Task system? (Was: Re: Life is Hard in Traveller)
WinMail must die & exploding whales.
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: All Tech Levels
RE: All Tech Levels
Traveller: 1965 timeline...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:31:02 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: conservations

you wrote

Most welcome, and thank you as well.  Now, if I might presume upon your
further indulgence...

(a) In a classical rocket, the vessel tosses mass out the back, and thus
moves forward thanks to momentum conservation. 

(b) In a thruster-propelled ship using the "push on the star" dodge, the
vessel shoves a large mass backward, and thus moves forward thanks to
momentum conservation. 

I thought I understood, but it's clear I don't:  Why does (b) violate
energy conservation, but not (a)?

- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Because - in a frame in which the starship is travelling rapidly and accelerating
(like the star rest frame) the fuel is actually *losing* energy; the fuel
comes out the back of the starship, as it were, and ends up moving more slowly
than the starship initially was - hence the fuel has lost kinetic energy
the ship has gained some, and the total (plus the energy liberated by
whatever heated the fuel) balances out.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:00:16 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CSC vs Emperor's Arsenal

At 07:14 PM 4/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Looking at the weapons in Emperor's Arseal and CSC, I find that
>the two do not match up.  Do the two books just use different 
>sets of weapons, or is one wrong?  Can somebody with 3G3 figure
>this out?
>
What specifically seems to be wrong?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:00:23 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

At 10:54 AM 4/18/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 03:56 PM 4/17/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
>> >names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
>> >have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
>> 
>> giskharshaza
>> isiishurka
>> ansasish
>> karar
>> urgi
>> 
>> They are in Vilani after all...
>
>Thats what I was after, did you just grab a Vilani dictionary?  I do not
>have access to one.  Thanks.

There is a program that generates random words for Traveller languages.  It
has Vilani, Vargr, Zhodani, Droyne, and Aslan; and can generate up to six
syllables.

I'm not sure where to get it, I found it as part of the Traveller suite a
few months back.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:12:31 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

>	OK, so there are at least two graduated mathematicians on the list, and a
>lot more people that are "almost mathematicians"... forget the count.

	This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out
there we could tap into. Say somebody has a very specific question--they'd
be more likely to ask it if they knew there was somebody "qualified" to
answer it... Is there any interest in having people post a brief
description of their real-world background or experience that might be useful?

I'll kick it off, just to break the ice. I've a degree in aerospace
engineering, I've managed ballistic missile and ballistic missile defense
research and analysis projects, and I'm currently working as an engineer
supporting the operations of the Air Force's most advanced (and complex)
communications satellite, Milstar.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(co

> Missed that first post... Another senario with that same farm kid. After
> his 4 years in the INMF he comes home and become a spokesman for the
> local anti-tech movement, utilizing his military background to train and
> help the militant anti-tech people... :)

Then he turns gay and gives uncle Norris a buzz, right!  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at TL12-15(co

> >>We (in our little playing group) have always assumed that TL really 
> relates
> >>to manufacturing and support technology.
> 
> >I see TL as being the level that the world could maintain if cut off from
> >interstellar contact.  A world may import higher TL gear, but it's the
> >ability to manufacture and repair that counts.

Good point.  I always eye TL with a nod towards this thinking too.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:45 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Brilliant Idea From Nick Munn

> >...why keep skill levels at all when
> >attribute + xps is your target number? Because the char gen system
> >has skills? Then convert each skill to 3 xps and be done with it.
> 
> Skill levels are used as DMs in several tasks (Like JoAT and Brawling). I
> prefer writing the skill levels down over having to recalculate them every
> time you use them.

I was looking for the words, but I just couldn't find them.

Good job, Richard.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:42 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: MT Task system? (Was: Re: Life is Hard in Traveller)

>         I agree that KBv2.0 is an excellent system... but my *personal*
> tastes are against rolling more than 3 dice and having two-digit numbers
> measuring characters experience... It seems I missed this system based on
> MT. Could someone forward it to me, please?

I think you are referring to Glenn Grant's D66 system.  Glenn does 
good work, and I even use his hit location chart.  You can find 
Glenn's system on Jeff Zeitlen's Freelance Traveller page, and you 
can get there from the IG jump site.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:27:55 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: WinMail must die & exploding whales.

Brody Dunn wrote:

>
>I simply can't believe how crappy this mailer can be.


	Just one word:  MICROSOFT.


>
>I unreservedly apologise to anyone inconvenienced by my 5 recent posts - I
>can only claim that my previous few posts functioned perfectly and I had
>assumed that these would also.
[snip]

	Coolness...  don't sweat it.  It seems to happen every few weeks.
The only solution, I think, is dropping a large rock on Redmond, WA...

	Ond on a totally un-traveller-related tangent, downloaded the
"infamous exploding whale" QuickTime movie last night.  Took over 2 hours,
but it was well worth it...  Highly recommended to all of you.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:43 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

> The laser batteries do not fire just one shot during those 10 minutes.
> Due to extremely long distances and the (relatively) small size of the
> target one "shot" from a battery is in reality many shots spread around a
> wide area, like a buck shot from a shotgun.

Gotcha.  So, when playing Traveller Starship combat, it's really more 
of an abstract system--kinda like the D&D 1 minute combat round or 
the 8 hour turns that a lot of war games have.

Hmm.  I wonder if it is worth the work to scale down the Starship 
combat rules so that you could have 6 second combat rounds (or, I'd 
settle for 1 minute combat rounds) so that you could focus on the 
roleplaying inside the character's ship.

(Scratching chin)  I wonder....

> (I think this was explained in FF&S)

Got it, but never used it.


> WARNING: Do NOT look into laser with remaining eyeball.

THAT'S why I never used it!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: A New Question (Starship Combat)

Believe it or not, in the 14 years that I've been playing Traveller, 
I've never done a space battle using the space combat rules.

Most of the action that I've seen in Traveller either happened planet 
side or inside a ship.  When a fight did come up, I usually winged it 
with a focus to what was happening inside the ship--the focus was on 
role playing.

With my current campaign, I'm looking at using more ship fights 
(heck, we've got the Fifth Frontier War coming up!), and I'm curious 
which set of starship combat rules do people like.

There are so many.

The CT basic system from the Little Black Books, Starter Traveller, 
and the Traveller Book.

The Book 5 High Guard system.

Mayday.

The MT system from the Referee's Manual.

Basic system in TNE main book.

Brilliant Lances.

Battle Rider.

And...

The hard to follow system in T4's Book 1.



The question is:

Which starship combat system is your favorite?

I'm curious, and I want to hear what the distiguished, learned 
members of this list perfer in way of their starship combats.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

> A parsec away is *nothing*, considering that any starship has a
> minimum of jump-1.  Any free trader can stop by, and according to the
> Traveller universe, there are A LOT of them.

I wouldn't consider a 14 day (one jump there;  one jump 
back) communication time lag *nothing*--I don't care how many ships 
you have making the jump.

This isn't Star Trek, and there is no subspace.


> I wouldn't say that US and Mexico are "vastly" different in regards to
> tech levels (2, maybe 3 points away at best).  Just because they don't
> launch their own satellites or have a nuclear capability doesn't make
> them low tech. 

Have you been across the border lately?  I have.  Just over the Rio 
in Acuna, they've got people living in tin shacks with dirt floors.

These aren't Mexico's homeless--its some of their citizens.  Ever 
wonder why there are so many revolutionary uprisings?  Ever bought a 
Mexican car?  Ever wonder why all of those people are so determined 
to find their ways over here?

True, in Traveller terms, the tech levels are not that vast in scale 
difference--but, I think you missed the point.

The point was that it is not that unrealistic to have a very high 
tech level star system next to a very low tech level system.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: All Tech Levels

> I agree the random factor makes for much more interesting environments to 
> game in.  But, I also think that the Tech Level is presented incorrectly in 
> the game.  It is mostly used as a what-is-available-here sort of measure. 
>  I feel it should really be a what-can-be-made-here sort of thing and that 
> some guidelines for bleed through of technology should be developed.

I think that this is where GM creativity comes in.

For instance, my characters are on Pysadi--TL 4.  Yet, the planet has 
a Class C starport and a tainted atmosphere.

It is clear that some technology over TL 4 exists, and it is my job, 
as GM, to decide what things are greater than TL 4.

I think that TL 4 should be used as a general rule for the planet.  
When you see some area that the planet definitely needs a higher TL 
for, change it.  In this case, it is the technology of sealed 
buildings and air recirculation.



In thinking about the TL with regard to a whole planet, that should 
be taken as an average, general measure.

I know the tech level categories are very broad, but (I'll use 
my best Bogart impression here) there is no way that one TL code can 
cover all the areas of technology on all of the planets in the whole 
universe.

A GM has got to make some creative choices--that's what he's there 
for.

One thing that I like to use as a guide is that wonderful product, 
DGP's World Builder's Handbook.

Whenever I think the PCs are going to stay on a planet for any length 
of time (or buy equipment there), I always use the book's technology 
rules to give me a guide.

For those of you who are not familiar with this book, you should get 
it.  I use it all the time.  Find it second hand somewhere or through 
a game shop that sells out of print Traveller stuff.

Using Pysadi's primary TL of 4, the book allows me to generate 
specific tech levels for several different areas of interest.

As a GM, I can then use these new TL codes (which are based on the 
planet's overall TL code) as a guide when the characters are looking 
for a specific piece of equipment.

Some people talk about the "bleed" that should occur when a 
planet is next to another high tech planet.  I think that these new 
specific TL codes reflect this quite nicely.

Let's look at what I've come up with for Pysadi for an example.

Pysadi,  Overall TL 4

Energy TL 4
Computers/Robotics TL 4
Communications TL 4
Water Transport TL 4
Air Transport TL 3
Heavy Military TL 0
Medical TL 4
Environment TL 5     (note that sealed environments become available 
                                  at TL 5)
Land Transport TL 4
Space Transport TL 4
Personal Military TL 2
Novelty TL C


Given that Pysadi is alone, by it self out in the scatters of the 
Aramis subsector, I am happy with the results--they are pretty 
homogeneous (hey!  this is not the sex thread!).

I did fudge one roll when I developed Pysaid--but it was only one 
roll, and it was necessary.  That was for Environment TL.  I actually 
rolled a 4 (after modification for other factors), but I knew it had 
to be at least a 5 to allow for the sealed environments needed for 
the population to keep out the tainted atmosphere.

But, the rest were all legit and based on the factors given Pysadi's 
location, etc.  As far as the fudge goes...I'm the GM, and I need to 
make those creative decisions every once in a while.

I really like how the military TLs came out--I view Pysadi as 
ruled by this religous cult with strengent laws and a tight hand on 
the public.  Guns are definitely not allowed, and a black market has 
not flourished.

Remembering the "bleed" from having a high tech planet near by, check 
out the Novelty TL of C above.

Whoosh.  Right over the top of the other TL 4 stuff.

I take it that these "novelties" float into the Pysadian culture from 
Aramis--a TL 11 planet two parsecs away.

I'm being pretty strict with this novelty category though.  The 
Pysadians are not xenophobic, but they do stick together more than 
most cultures.  They keep a watchful eye on strangers.

And you can see this with how they placed their starport.  It's not 
right smack-dab in the middle of a city.  It's about two klicks away, 
out by itself.

That way, they keep a distance from the "non-believers".  Travellers 
who want to visit Sadi, Pysadi's closest city to the starport (and 
capitiol), can take the train for a nominal fee.



With all of this emphasis on Traveller rules with regard to TLs, I'd 
say that we might be forgetting the most important part of world 
creation...

...the GM's imagination.

Kenneth.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:33:23 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

VolantZep@aol.com wrote:

>
>In a message dated 97-04-17 14:50:35 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> 	I do have some preliminary timeline work done, up until the early
> '50's.  If anyone wants to see them I can email/post them...
>
> R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>  >>
>Post it!

	OK... here it is.  It is not complete, and in a very rough form.
Some of the character references are to a few Vampire campaigns my group
ran during the 20's-40's a few years back.  Questions, comments, flames all
welcome.  I'd seriously welcome input...


>Timeline
>
>
>-	31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
>Silesia.  In our world, his father, the Baron immediately strangles the
>deformed, hunchbacked child with his bare hands.  However, here the Baron,
>due to a different quantum event outcome occurring in his cerebral cortex,
>instead decided to go shooting that afternoon; after he returned home
>drunk, he merely had the child banished to the attic instead.  He
>eventually relents, and provides for extensive private tutoring for the
>boy, who proves to be a supergenius.  Somewhat mollified, the baron
>ascribes this to all his Aryan virtue being concentrated in his head, and
>returns to his brandy.
>
>-	15 November 1916: Michael Lawrence Adams catches mononucleosis, and
>flunks out of ROTC at Princeton.  After recovering, he will go on to do a
>Master's degree in Eugenics before returning to work in his father's bank.
>
>-	5 January 1917: Valery Zhukov, due to a different quantum event
>outcome occurring in his cerebral cortex, decides to listen into a
>Communist fellow soldier's impromptu lecture on the principles of Marxism.
>Immediately converted, he becomes a ringleader in a troop mutiny, and
>therefore does not get captured by the Germans.
>
>-	5th of July, 1924: Michael Lawrence Adams and Johann Mueller meet
>at an Eugenics Society meeting in New York.  Impressed with one another's
>ideas, they remain in contact.
>
>-	8th August 1925: Francis James White beats up Ernest Hemingway in a
>barroom brawl on the Left Bank.  F. Scott Fitzgerald then cracks him over
>the head with a whiskey bottle.  Recovering together in jail, the three
>strike up a fast friendship, becoming what would later be termed "the
>literary triumvirate of the century".
>
>-	15 December 1926: the wheelchair-bound, deformed, one-eyed, and
>hunchbacked Sigfried von Gotterdammerung earns his second PhD at
>Heidleburg.  His first was on an abstract topic in nuclear physics; his
>second on rocketry.
>
>-	19 May 1926: Adams and Mueller, touring the Continent together,
>make extensive contacts with the Nazi and Fascist movements in Germany and
>Italy.  They return to New York, and begin setting up a shadowy network of
>fifth columnists.
>
>-	17 December 1929: Now a Colonel of the Red Army, Valery Zhukov,
>after reading the collected works of Tsiolkovsky, convinces the Politburo
>to begin funding rocketry research.
>
>-	5 April 1934: Sigfried von Gotterdammerung, a member of the Nazi
>party from almost the beginning, meets with der Fuehrer.  The conversation
>turns to the possibilities for world domination inherent in nucleic bombs
>mounted on intercontinental rockets...
>
>- 	10 April 1937: Lt. Robert A. Heinlein is transferred to Pearl
>Harbour; in the clement Hawaiian weather he does not contract tuberculosis.
>
>- 	6 June 1936: Adams, acting on instructions from Berlin, begins
>funding Robert Goddard's rocketry research.
>
>-	9 March 1939: Adams and Mueller, acting on instructions from
>Berlin, kidnap Robert Goddard and have him transported to Peenemunde.
>
>-	10 December 1942: Flt. Lt. Eamon Dunhill, the "Angel of Dunkirk",
>makes Squadron Leader after his 38th kill.
>
>- 	15 December 1942: Adams and Mueller, acting on instructions from
>Berlin, kidnap Albert Einstein and smuggle him onto a U-Boat waiting off
>Long Island Sound.  Mueller is killed in a shootout with shore patrol, but
>Adams escapes on the U-Boat.
>
>-	8 November 1943: the first V-1 falls on London.
>
>-	8 January 1944: The first V-2 falls on London.  The earlier and
>intense V-weapon bombardment is sufficient to delay D-Day by well over a
>year.
>
>-	January 1944: "Natter" and "Komet" rocket interceptors seriously
>interfere with the USAF's daylight bombing campaign.  Me-262 jet fighters
>also add to the USAF's death toll; the daylight bombing campaign is
>abandoned and the night bombing campaign intensified.
>
>-	10 February 1944: Rocket General Valery Zhukov is killed when the
>first test of the Nevsky-1 (a shorter-range Soviet attempt at a V-2) blows
>up on the launch pad.  He is posthumously declared a Hero of the Soviet
>Union.
>
>-	1944: the Allies concentrate their war efforts on air defense from
>the V-1.  It is only when the Supermarine Spiteful supplants the Tempest V
>in late 1944 that the British have a fighter capable of dealing with the
>robot bombs.  The Germans continue fortifying Europe and building
>V-weapons.  However, the advanced Soviet shoulder-launched anti-tank
>rockets and rocket artillery in general forces them back on the Eastern
>front.  The night-time strategic bombing is also taking its toll.
>
>-	25 March 1945: A daring OSS raid on Peenemunde, led by Glenn
>Carleton and Forrest Frost (from Mi6) succeeds in killing Sigfried von
>Gotterdammerung and Adams and rescuing Albert Einstein.  Bombing raids
>against Peenemunde intensify thereafter.
>
>-	6 April 1945: Scientists at Peenemunde successfully test the first
>V-8; a two-stage missile with intercontinental range.  Production is
>intensified; three are eventually produced before the dwindling supply of
>titanium halts production.
>
>-	6 October 1945: D-Day; although the casualties are immense due to
>Rommell's having over a year longer to improve the defenses, the landings
>succeed.  Francis James White, now a war correspondent for the New York
>Times, lands with the troops; his narration becomes a classic.
>
>-	10 June 1945: Wing Commander Eamon Dunhill, on a routine fighter
>sweep, shoots down the Ju-52 carrying Hermann Goering back to Berlin.  The
>same day, scientists at Peenemunde complete the Nibellung-1, the first
>German atomic device.
>
>-	12 June 1945: Hitler, in a rage over Goering's death, orders the
>prototype Nibellung-1 to be mounted on on a V-8 and launched at New York,
>basing his decision on erroneous reports that Dunhill's Spiteful was
>actually an American P-51.
>
>-	18 June 1945: Nevsky-2 bombardment of Nazi Germany begins; although
>sporadic, it proves effective.  Soviet top brass become enamoured of the
>ballistic missile concept.  Statues of the posthumously promoted Grand
>Marshall Zhukov will eventually be erected all over the USSR.
>
>-	25 June 1945: A V-8 bearing the Nibellung-1 destroys Yonkers.
>
>-	27 June 1945: Einstein, returned to Alamagordo, and bearing
>valuable information from the Nibellung-1 project at Peenemunde, leads the
>Manhattan Project to a successful test detonation at Trinity.  Bomb
>production is intensified.
>
>-	28 June 1945: Operation Vengeance, a massive bomber raid against
>Peenemunde using the entire resources of Bomber Command and the Eighth Air
>Force, is launched.  Over the course of three days, Peenemunde is almost
>completely levelled, save for the underground labs where the Nibellung-2
>and 3 are being constructed, and two V-8 silos.
>
>-	November 1945: B-29's of the Tenth Air Force move to bases in North
>Africa.
>
>-	Dec 31 1945: D-Day Japan.  The Japanese campaign proves to be one
>of the most brutal in history; the Japanese, despite their near-starvation
>and total desitution due to the American blockade and bombardment,
>nevertheless manage to inflict nearly one million casualties over the 5
>months it takes General MacArthur to complete his conquest of the Land of
>the Rising Sun.
>
>-	6 April 1945: A V-8 carrying the Nibellung-2 disintegrates over
>Boston; radioactive debris is scattered over the city; the effects of this
>will be felt for years in terms of increased cancer and mutation rates.
>
>-	8 May 1946: With the Allied invasion stalled against the heavy
>German defences, having failed to break out of Normandy, the Tenth Air
>Force launches Operation Sunday Punch: Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden, Bremen,
>Bonn, Cologne, Frankfurt, Kiel, and the Eagle's Nest, Hitler's mountain
>hideaway, are destroyed by Fat Man nuclear bombs.  Adolf Hitler is thought
>to have died in the fireball that obliterated Berlin.
>
>-	9 May 1946: The last V-8, bearing the Nibellung-3, detonates 6
>miles north of Moscow.  The same day, the Tenth Air Force continues
>nuclear bombing operations against industrial and military targets in
>Germany.  The effect upon German military and civilian morale is immense.
>
>-	10 May 1946: Operation Sunday Punch continues; much of Germany lies
>in radioactive ruins.
>
>-	11 May 1946: the power struggle between what remains of the Nazi
>top brass ends with Admiral Canaris suing for peace.  The Soviets continue
>their westward drive for three more days against little resistance,
>seizing territory roughly equivalent to what in our World became East
>Germany.  The Americans immediately turn their nuclear bombers on Japan,
>wiping out the last few pockets of resistance in the mountains.
>
>-	21 May 1946: Allied forces complete their occupation of what German
>soil does not already lie under the Soviet yoke; the first encounters are
>friendly, but orders from both sides soon put a friend to the
>fraternization.  Historians generally take this date as the end of the
>Second War and the beginning of the Cold War.
>
>-	1946-1947: the Second War ended with all of Germany's major cities
>so many heaps of radioactive rubble; Japan lay largely in ruins, although
>it had not suffered so much from wrath of the atom.  The Allies were not
>themselves without their wounds to lick; the United States, the USSR, and
>Great Britain had all suffered from the German V-weapons.  As the
>combatants laid down their arms, one thing was blindingly obvious; that a
>new age had begun...  no nation was safe, and no borders were inviolable.
>Science had unleashed primaeval forces of destruction, that, like evil
>genies, could never be returned to their bottles.  Thanks to the vision of
>Valery Zhukov, the Soviets had a significant lead in rocket technology;
>thanks to the Manhattan Project, the Americans had the Bomb.  However, the
>Nazi V-weapon and Nibellung weapons were clearly superior to anything
>either side had.  KGB, the OSS, and Mi6 began desperately scouring the
>shattered wreckage of dozens of Nazi installations in search of anything
>that would gain their nations an edge.  Documents, prototypes, and
>scientists were their prey.  Relations between Communist Russia and the
>West began to sour...  Scientists on both sides madly work at closing the
>technological gaps.
>
>-	?? July 1947: alien spacecraft crashlands near Roswell, New Mexico.
>The wreckage is retrieved almost immediately by the US military, and
>stored in Area 51.  The cream of the US scientific establishment is
>drafted and set to work at reverse engineering its advanced technology and
>dissecting its crew.  However, the KGB quickly begins to infiltrate the
>project and soon have access to its data.
>
>-	1 May 1948: the Zhukov-1, Soviet Russia's first satellite is
>launched on a Nevsky-3; the Commies are first out of the gate in the Space
>Race.  It burns up on re-entry a month later, but the impact is not
>lessened thereby.
>
>-	10 December 1948: now Air Marshal, Sir Eamon Dunhill becomes the
>senior military member newly formed Royal Space Agency, led by
>distinguished radar scientist Arthur C. Clarke.  The RSA, under Dunhill's
>influence, begins to follow a spaceplane, rather than booster,
>orientation.  The foresighted Clarke and the dashing former fighter pilot
>form an unlikely close friendship.
>
>-	15 December 1948: First U.S. satellite launch ends catastrophically
>as the launch vehicle's attitude controls fail.  The "MacArthur" rocket,
>basically a less sophisticated copy of a V-8, was stripped of its remote
>destruct package in order to enable it to reach orbit.  It crashes upon a
>camp of migrant workers, killing 13 people.
>
>-	1 May 1949: The Communists' first attempt at a manned orbital
>launch is a catastrophic failure; the Lenin-1 booster explodes on the
>launch pad.  Its pilot is posthumously and secretly named a Hero of the
>Soviet Union, and a fragment of his tibia and three of his teeth (the only
>remnants found) are given a secret burial in the Kremlin walls.
>
>-	4 July 1949: The USA's second attempt at a satellite launch
>succeeds.  A MacArthur II booster places a sphere the size of a basketball
>in LEO.  It broadcasts the Stars and Stripes Forever for 24 hours, until
>its batteries run down.
>
>-	5th July 1949: Enthusiasm over the first American satellite launch
>is dampened when news of a successful Soviet manned orbital launch breaks.
>Ivan Kruspov orbits the Earth 25 times, 15 orbits more than intended.
>Mission control finally manages to get his retro-rockets to fire, but not
>before he suffers some brain damage from anoxia.  His subsequent public
>appearances are somewhat abbreviated so as not to reveal his embarassing
>drooling problem.
>
>-	August 1949: Reverse engineering of the Roswell Craft's emergency
>backup attitude control system provides US scientists with the theory
>needed to make several important breakthroughs in fuel pump design and
>rocket nozzle theory.  The data reaches Moscow about a week later.
>
>-	5 June 1950: President Charles de Gaulle forms les Forces Spatiales
>Fran=E7aises and l'Agence Spatiale Fran=E7ais.  The RSA and the ASF begin
>collaborating closely.
>
>-	4th July 1950: Major Chuck Yeager becomes the first American in
>space; his suborbital launch in a Mercury capsule perched on top of a
>MacArthur IV booster is a total success.
>
>-	5th July 1950: Enthusiam over Major Yaeger's flight is dampened
>when news of a successful Soviet nuclear test detonation breaks.  The
>Commies now have the Bomb...
>
>-	6 December 1950: the Firedrake I, a delta-winged British
>rocketplane, is launched from beneath a specially modified Lancaster
>bomber at Woomera Testing Grounds in Australia.  It breaks Mach 2, and
>sets a new altitude record of 75,000 feet.  Sir Eamon Dunhill proves
>unexpectedly to be at the controls, and lands it successfully despite
>partial failure of its hydraulic system and loss of some of its control
>surfaces due to unexpected supersonic shockwave effects.  Discovery of the
>original pilot, trussed like a chicken in a broom closet, causes a minor
>scandal.  However, Dunhill's popularity saves his career.
>
>-	31 December 1950: Major Yaeger becomes the second American in
>space, and the first in orbit.  His Mercury capsule, perched on top of a
>MacArthur V booster incorporating Roswell-derived technology, makes 10
>orbits before re-entry.  He is awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour.
>
>-	6 January 1951: the USSR begins construction of the Zhukov-X, a
>heavy lift booster incorporating Roswell-derived engines.
>
>-	1951: both sides continue with their manned orbital launch programmes.
>
>-	15 March 1951: Mi6 obtains a complete set of Roswell data files and
>US and Soviet implementation blueprints through a mole in the KGB.
>Deciding not to compromise their source, they neglect to inform the
>Americans.  Construction of the Firedrake II is accellerated; it is to
>serve as an aerodynamics testbed for the Roswell-engined Firedrake III.
>
>-	6 June 1951: Firedrake II's first flight reaches Mach 3.2 and sets
>new altitude record.  The Firedrake program continues to experiment with
>hypersonic aerodynamics.  Meanwhile, a pair of Roswell-technology engines
>undergo their first test firing.  The British, having an edge in jet
>engine construction at the time, use their somewhat more advanced
>knowledge of materials, manage to achieve the most effective
>implementation of Roswell technology to date.
>
>-	10 June 1951: The British, in 1950, acquired a dozen obsolete
>MacArthur IV boosters and a manufacturing license; the first four shots,
>out of Woomera, carry a variety of experiments designed to discover a
>material capable of multiple-re-entry use.  However, these prove fruitless.
>


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1220
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1221



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (long)
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
BARD Pages
Re: WinMail must die & exploding whales.
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Ringworld, the Movie
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1219
A little humor for Friday
a plea
Sex in Traveller
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: What is science?
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: 1889 drives
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Jumpspace Aleph Theory (was Re: Infinity)
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
RE: Gays, gimme a break
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 19:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

In-Reply-To: <199704162336.SAA20210@weck.brokersys.com>

<< Just for the record, I do play D&D, and I think it is an incredible 
game--one of my favorites. >>

Oh dear, my opinion of you just dropped several notches...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 19:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (long)

In-Reply-To: <l03020900af795ca3ddf9@[198.168.189.72]>

<< Well, I wouldn't be so hard on the US's system; it does work more
or less <grin> and has been doing so for longer than any other democracy 
in the world today. >>

Ignoring the fact that it isn't really a true democracy (*are* there 
any?), how about the fact that it abolished slavery and gave women the 
vote *after* the British? And that in some areas segregation was only 
abolished 30 years ago? And I won't even mention Senator Joe Macarthy...

Not an anti-US flame, just pointing out that 'the land of the free' has 
at least as many faults as most other countries.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 19:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

In-Reply-To: <v03007804af79801f9f84@[128.102.198.138]>

<< >Since Norris's heir and clone, Seldrian, shares his genes & most 
current
>genetic evidence suggests (although does not prove) that homosexuality
>is primarily genetic we can probably assume that she was also gay.

Um, no.  The evidence is of a correlation between gay behavior and
certain genes.  It doesn't mean that gay behavior can't also be
learned (and so means that you can't be sure that Norris has the
gene) or that possetion of the gener means you will be gay.

You can only say that there seems to be a higher chance
that she will be gay, and even then you might only be
raising it from a 2% chance to a 5% chance. >>

Bearing in mind Norris's clone is female, how would it affect her? Would 
she be gay from her point of view (ie attracted to women) or his (ie 
attracted to men - in other words, straight)?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:17:40 -0500
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

>At 10:54 AM 4/18/97 +1000, you wrote:
>>On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>>> At 03:56 PM 4/17/97 +1000, you wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
>>> >names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
>>> >have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> giskharshaza
>>> isiishurka
>>> ansasish
>>> karar
>>> urgi
>>>
>>> They are in Vilani after all...
>>
>>Thats what I was after, did you just grab a Vilani dictionary?  I do not
>>have access to one.  Thanks.
>
>There is a program that generates random words for Traveller languages.  It
>has Vilani, Vargr, Zhodani, Droyne, and Aslan; and can generate up to six
>syllables.

I've one on the Web that you can use if you have that access...

http://www.missouri.edu/virtual/wordgen

which is linked from

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:54:33 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:32:41 -0600 (MDT)
>From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>

>> ***** - Very Small...
>
>"very fast"  Again, ditch this notation as it makes no sense at all.

Actually, it does, but not in the sense I _think_ the original author meant.

Any battle rider is going to either be faster or nastier than a jump
capable ship in real space.  Therefore, if your naval doctrine has put
faster drives on the battle riders, any ship that is capable of keeping up
with them is going to be referred to as fast, because it can catch a jump
ship.

If your doctrine has gone for better weaponry, then the word "fast" means
little, but your battle riders are going to pulverize any comparable
tonnage and cost ship they meet.

This leaves out the idea of jump speed as a measure of speed.  Since I
figured that ships all tend top have the same strategic speed, and that
this changes slowly, all military ships in the Imperial navy are jump 3,
with J2 hulls lurking about.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 12:52:05 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: BARD Pages

Hi Everyone,

The BARD Pages, a web page dedicated to the Reformation Coalition, have
moved.  The new address is linked from my web page. (URL at bottom.)
There are over 100 pages of Starships, Charcters, Groups, Equipment and
other things.  While most of the pages are dedicated to the RC, and use
TNE rules, there are ships that use T4 design systems. (and even one
using Megatraveller Rules!) Also many of the Characters and
organizations are useable in any era.  

You will also find a few Spinward Marches files on my Traveller page,
but these aren't part of the BARD pages.  

If you have a reference to the BARD pages please change the URL.

Thanks,

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does a cow wear a bell?
A:Because its horns don't work.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:33:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ryan Dooley <ryan@coe.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: WinMail must die & exploding whales.

> 
> 	Ond on a totally un-traveller-related tangent, downloaded the
> "infamous exploding whale" QuickTime movie last night.  Took over 2 hours,
> but it was well worth it...  Highly recommended to all of you.
> 

I do have a local copy here :)

	ftp://babylon.coe.missouri.edu/pub/users/ryan/Whale/whale.qt

- --ryan

+ Ryan Dooley                       * ryan@coe.missouri.edu           +
+ Network / Systems Administrator   * voice: (573) 882-2162           +
+ University of Missouri - Columbia * College of Education            +
+ Key fingerprint =  E3 34 CA AA 07 4B 9E 26  55 BE C4 95 51 7F C1 31 +

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:41:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> The question is:
> 
> Which starship combat system is your favorite?
> 

The Role-Playing Ship Combat System off of the net.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:43:44 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Ringworld, the Movie

At 02:28 PM 4/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Hot on the heels of the soon-to-be Starship Troopers disaster, yet
>another of my favorite novels is about to be mutilated by Hollywood!
>Have a look at this, hot off the Reuters newsline:
>
>HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - "Ringworld," the best-selling trilogy written and
>created by sci-fi master Larry Niven, is being developed as a feature film
>by Quincy
>Jones' production company.

Pleeaaassseeee let them do it right!

>"'Ringworld' has all the elements for an incredible action-packed feature
>experience, great characters, a riveting story, and tremendous science
>fiction action," said
>Joel Simon, president of QDE Motion Pictures.

"Action-packed" in Hollywood usual translates to "lots of gunfire and
explosions."

But there are some sequences in RW that I've always wanted to see filmed..
the flight through the Eye Storm, the riot when Louis and Co first meet the
Ring's inhabitants, Louis' first night with 'Prill  :)

>Plans are to establish a licensing and merchandising program for the
>project and its characters.

Finagle, take me now!  What are we looking at?  Nessus (in)action toys at
Taco Bell? (Push the button and he collapses into a quivering ball) Plush
Speaker-to-Animals under the Christmas tree?  "Tasp" perfume?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:59:12 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1219

>Consider, if the thruster has to push against a planet or star, then
>both the momentum and energy will balance, and should do so in all
>frames.

Oops - I dropeed a minus sign when I worked this out in my head. You're
quite right; conservation applies in all frames. 

>But power required goes up exponentially (literally) with velocity

Actually, it's linear with velocity: 
power required = (mass of ship)*(acceleration)*(velocity relative to planet)

Still, not very efficient.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:43:52 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: A little humor for Friday

Considering the heated exchanges of the past few weeks, it thought this
would be appropriate.. Enjoy!

>Q:  How many  mailing list subscribers does it take
>     to change a light bulb?
>
>A:  1,023:
>         1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail
>           list that the light bulb has been changed
>        14 to share similar experiences of changing light
>           bulbs and how the light bulb could have been
>           changed differently.
>        42 will point out that light bulbs are manufactured by
>           the parent companies of pharmaceutical manufacturers.
>         7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
>        27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about
>           changing light bulbs.
>        53 to flame the spell checkers
>       156 to write to the list administrator complaining about
>           the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness
>           to this mail list.
>        41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
>       101 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and
>           to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
>       203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar,
>           alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing
>           light bulbs be stopped.
>       111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we
>           are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts
>           **are** relevant to this mail list.
>       306 to debate which method of changing light
>           bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs,
>           what brand of light bulbs work best for this
>           technique, and what brands are faulty.
>        27 to post URLs where one can see examples of
>           different light bulbs
>        14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and
>           to post corrected URLs.
>         3 to post about links they found from the URLs that
>           are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs
>           relevant to this list.
>        33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote
>           them including all headers and footers, and then
>           add "Me Too."
>        12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing
>           because they cannot handle the light bulb
>           controversy.
>        19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
>         4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
>         1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
>        47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion
>           was meant for, leave it here.
>       101 will vote for alt.lite.bulb.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 97 15:33:56 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: a plea

Can anyone clue me in as to the contact person for this list? all attempts to
disconnect from the digest while I'm away next week have been met with failure.
Ideas?

thanks in advance!

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Sex in Traveller

     I've restrained from entering into this discussion so far, but I feel
the need to remark that this has been a surprisingly interesting thread
which has brought up some good ideas while staying pretty much clear of
political minefields.  I'd rather follow ten of these threads than one of
the 2D<->3D mapping threads.
     I remember when I first got the T4 rulebook and read Marc Miller's
quality control standards I was concerned about the one forbidding
"sexually oriented" material since, as this thread has shown (IMO, at
least) tastefully and creatively handled "sexually oriented" material can
provide a lot of interesting background color, as well as plot devices and
rp opportunities, without necessarily dwelling in the gutter.
     As I said then, I don't think that "Gender Roles in the Far Future"
should become the overarching theme of the game or anything, but I do feel
that there's a lot of interesting ideas to be mined and incorporated here,
and that the end result will make for a richer, more interesting, and more
versatile gaming background than the "neuter technicians in space"
feel that I sometimes see the game move uncomfortably near to.

Keep up the good and interesting work,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:20:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:
 
> I wouldn't say that US and Mexico are "vastly" different in regards to
> tech levels (2, maybe 3 points away at best).  Just because they don't
> launch their own satellites or have a nuclear capability doesn't make
> them low tech.  They simply have better places to spend their limited
> resources.  They are definitely a poorer country, and this does
> contribute in some part to the country's perceived "tech level".

	Bingo! I think that that is the essential reason you'll have low
tech vs high tech worlds next to each other. Mexico can (and actually
does)  produce much that the US can...look at your TV, microwave or GM
vehicle sometime...a lot of them are made in the 'maliqadora' plants along
the border, or at least components of them are. But the crucial thing
limiting technology in Mexico is money, pure and simple. To get an idea of
that compare the lives of the rich to the poor. The upper classes in
Mexico live comparable lives to anyone of similar economic class in the
US. Let me amend that, people of _any_ class in Mexico live pretty much as
the comparable class in the US, it's just that their lower socioeconomic
classes go lower and are so much larger that those in the US. 

	The largely agrarian recent history of Mexico has exacerbated
that...far more people people live under subsistence farming conditions
than in the much more industrialized US. In many ways, the situation in
Mexico resembles the difference between the Industrial North and Agrarian
South in the US, hell, well into this century. Many of the same conditions
applied as well: grinding poverty, malnutrition, an exodus of workers
north (does ANY of this sound remotely familiar???) This is what built the
industrial revolution in cities like Detroit and Chicago.

	Additionally, Mexico has largely restricted foreign investment,
until recently, they had a bone-headed 'nativist' economic policy, as well
as a misplaced belief (in the 70's and 80's) that the oil money would flow
forever.

	All in all, I think that this will be the case in the 'classic'
Imperium;  the TL-3 planet next door to the TL-C planet will be so due to
poverty, poor economic policy, or similar reasons.  Remember Tech level
refers to the Tech Level COMMONLY available on the planet. The wealthy
will live at the prevailing regional TL;  they'll just pay more for the
oil changes on their air/raft. 

	In Milieu 0 things could well be different, though, you could have
truly stone age worlds next to starfaring worlds. The Long Night
constrained trade for so long that even at 1 parsec away, the poor worlds
weren't worth trading with. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:46:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is science?

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> >UK schools teach thermodynamics in 6th form physics (ages 16-18), but
> >not many people study physics -- TMLers excepted, before the email
> >floods in.  Colleges and universities teach chemical thermodynamics
> >in the first undergraduate year (or 2nd year HND).
>  I'm not talking about teaching about it for physicists, it should be
> taught to everybody in basic school, not how to perform calculations but
> how it works just as basic newtonian physics is taught to every child (at
> least in Sweden).


My favorite version, which seems to be the easiest to teach goes like:

First Law of Thermodynamics Poker: You can't win.
Second Law of Thermodynamics Poker: You can't break even.
Third Law of Thermodynamics Poker: You can't get out of the game.

I think I stole this from either Larry Niven or Robert Heinlein.

From my education, we were taught basic newtonian physics in 8th grade
science class (roller skates on a plane, that sort of thing) and
thermodynamics (under the guise of how refrigerators work) later, in high
school, I think.

Don't know how it's done now, as it's been a hell of a long time since I
was in 8th grade :-/ and I'm NOT going into any flamefest of the merits of
any country's educational system.

But I have taught non-sci/tech people the rough outlines of thermodynamic
using the three laws above pretty easily. Once you 'get' it, it's fairly
easy to generalize.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:59:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

In a message dated 97-04-18 07:33:09 EDT, you write:

<< Premise 3 : Vacuume tube computers! (or babbage engines, I tend to go to
 vacuume tubes, because they have more computing power than an old Model
 1bis :-)
 
 Lets see what happens.
 
 Darryl
  >>
Vaccuum tubes?!?!  Now wait just a minute here, yer talkin about some serious
technology now!  ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:59:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: 1889 drives

In a message dated 97-04-18 07:34:37 EDT, you write:

<<  you want to extend it to an interstellar scope, just add Jump Drive from
 Traveller (or postulate that possible velocities exceed c once you get
 beyond X distance from the sun) , and some sort of high-power lowish-tech
 power source...I'd choose water powered "cold fusion" for this game's feel.
 
 Now, the various nations of earth can expand across the local stellar
 neighborhood, and your players can explore along with the expansion.
 
 
 Eris
 --  >>

How about they discover an alien Gateway?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:56:33 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:00:23 -0700, you wrote:

> There is a program that generates random words for Traveller languages.  It
> has Vilani, Vargr, Zhodani, Droyne, and Aslan; and can generate up to six
> syllables.
> 
> I'm not sure where to get it, I found it as part of the Traveller suite a
> few months back.

I've got a copy kicking around.  It's about 300KB and for Windows
only, I'm afraid.  If anyone needs it I can send out a copy via
private email.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:03:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Aleph Theory (was Re: Infinity)

In a message dated 97-04-18 07:35:30 EDT, you write:

<< From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
 
 >So if I have correctly understood your theory, in real space (Aleph 0) the
 >particles can be in distinct energy level (as we know). And in Jspace 1
 >(Aleph 1) those particles can assume any level (As Aleph 1 is the number of
 >irrationnal numbers? Is it what you thought or am I to restricitve. If I'm
 >correct, the matter/energy should have different properties?
 
 	Yes... and, think about the following: In normal space, what we see can
 usually be approximated by "continuum" situations... we think the matter is
 sort of continuous, although each body is formed by a finite (although
 large) number of atoms. So, the shape of normal (aleph-0) space resembles
 something like aleph-1. What would Jspace-1 seem? Probably, something that
 could be described as Aleph-2... the cardinal of the set curves... you see
 some sort of mess with curving rays all around... and your mind cannot
 really cope with it, you are an aleph-0 creature. If you view Jspace-n,
 n>=2, you just cannot
 understand the difference with Jspace-2.
 	(Btw, just understanding all the implications of Jumpspace theory/
 /transfinite numbers may be enough to go insane... it's said that a Solomani
 mathematician called Kantor went insane when discovering the theory,
centuries
 before the discovery of Jspace...)
 
 >>        The lanthanum grid has the effect of exponentially increasing the
 >>variance of meta-quantum situations in the particles of a body. In the
 >>limit, the body cannot be contained in its space and so "jumps" into the
 >>appropriate one.
 
 >The regular view on the grid is that it protects the ship from the J-space
 >(IMHO again). In this case the inside of the ship is cannot be protected
 >from the effect. If it would be it couln't "Jump".
 
 	Ooops.. true. I did speak too fast. Change the above paragraph to:
 
 	When starting jump, the lanthanum grid exponentially increases the
 variance of meta-quantum situations in its particles (the particles of the
 grid). In the limit, the grid cannot be contained in its space and so
 "jumps" into the appropriate one, along with a bubble of normal space
 containing the ship.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
 Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
 Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
 03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >>

Can't remember which book it was now but I remember that the author described
Jumpspace as totally disorienting to most people to the point that if you
weren't tranqualized there was a good chance you would come out insane.  Only
special people could manage to be in Jumpspace untranked without going mad
and they became the Navigators in Jumpspace.  I might be combining a couple
of stories here though. But it is one take on Jumpspace.  The tranqualizer
did not completely put people under just induced a near sleep state where
they could still manage to eat and potty.  But no sit down meals, just tube
meals.  Its been along time since I read it, anyone else remember anything
along these lines?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:56:03 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

> In-Reply-To: <199704162336.SAA20210@weck.brokersys.com>
> 
> << Just for the record, I do play D&D, and I think it is an incredible 
> game--one of my favorites. >>
> 
> Oh dear, my opinion of you just dropped several notches...

Well, I guess there's no hope with you then, Andrew, because I didn't 
think I was standing that high on your list in the first place!  :->

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:20:30 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break

>>I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
>>stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
>>reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
>>don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
>>and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.
>>
>>I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
>>anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
>>about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
>>peoples time.
>>
>>sturm
>
>Uh-oh, the class far right winger has spoken.


	Hey, I thought I was the class right-winger :-(  How did sturm get that 
honour?

	But as much as I personally disapprove of homosexuality (and I won't bring 
up gay marriage or adoption), the topic of gays in the imperium certainly 
is relevant. And I just got the Regency Sourcebook in the mail yesterday 
(note: interesting read, but no wonder GDW went out of business printing 
books that looked that ugly) and Norris's being gay is DEFINITELY in the 
subtext.

But this topic, pretty much like any other on this or any other mailing 
list, is starting to drift pretty badly (i.e. I could care less for the 
discussion of the percentage of gays in todays society, or the discussion 
of homosexuality in ancient greece). Please stop these threads.

K.C. Komosky
past president, U of Manitoba Reform Party of Canada Youth
(see, I told you I was right wing!)
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:27:01 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 07:33 AM 4/18/97 -0400, Rod wrote:

>>-	4th July 1950: Major Chuck Yeager becomes the first American in
>>space; his suborbital launch in a Mercury capsule perched on top of a
>>MacArthur IV booster is a total success.

>>-	31 December 1950: Major Yaeger becomes the second American in
>>space, and the first in orbit.  His Mercury capsule, perched on top of a
>>MacArthur V booster incorporating Roswell-derived technology, makes 10
>>orbits before re-entry.  He is awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour.

One point:  The Medal of Honor is awarded for Valor above and beyond the
call of duty while in combat. (The word "Congressional" has never been part
of the awards name, although Congress does vote on awarding the Medal.)

Maj. Yaeger would probably have recieve a Distinguished Service Medal
(highest non-combat award), along with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Also, were there *two* Maj. Yaegers?  I ask because of the phrasing above.

All in all, very interesting.. I hope to see more soon.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1221
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1222



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Biography  (was Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: Ringworld, the Movie
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: All Tech Levels
[T97#1209] THUDDD winners...
Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD
CSC and Emperor's Arsenal
Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 
re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: a plea
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Vilani names
Re: 1889 drives
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Racism and Sexism
Re: the agy thread...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:49:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Biography  (was Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

> 	This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out
> there we could tap into. Say somebody has a very specific question--they'd
> be more likely to ask it if they knew there was somebody "qualified" to
> answer it... Is there any interest in having people post a brief
> description of their real-world background or experience that might be useful?
> 
> I'll kick it off, just to break the ice. I've a degree in aerospace
> engineering, I've managed ballistic missile and ballistic missile defense
> research and analysis projects, and I'm currently working as an engineer
> supporting the operations of the Air Force's most advanced (and complex)
> communications satellite, Milstar.

Damn!  You're living Traveller!

I'm afraid that that my background is not as exciting nor as 
relevant to Traveller, but here goes anyway.

I graduated with honors from the University of Houston with a BBA in 
Marketing.  From there, I negotiated contracts with hospitals in the 
nations's largest medical center here in Houston for a medical sales 
company.  Since, I have started my own resume writing company, and I 
have been in business for a year and a half now.

Aside from that, one of my biggest interests (besides role playing) 
is in filmmaking.  I've done a short film in school and a couple of 
videos.  I've had one of my videos shown on the local PBS station, 
and I recently finished a business video for Famous Amos cookies.  My 
current project is a music sales video for a local country band.  I'm 
busy writing a script that I intend to film on a very low budget, and 
my dream is to become a writer/director.

Like I said, there's not a lot that relates to Traveller there, but 
at least by doing this, we might get to know each other a little 
better.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:46:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

In a message dated 97-04-18 16:21:19 EDT, you write:

<< This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out
 there we could tap into. Say somebody has a very specific question--they'd
 be more likely to ask it if they knew there was somebody "qualified" to
 answer it... Is there any interest in having people post a brief
 description of their real-world background or experience that might be
useful?
 
 I'll kick it off, just to break the ice. I've a degree in aerospace
 engineering, I've managed ballistic missile and ballistic missile defense
 research and analysis projects, and I'm currently working as an engineer
 supporting the operations of the Air Force's most advanced (and complex)
 communications satellite, Milstar.
 -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   >>

I'm game, I have a degree in Economics from the USAF Academy so its broad
engineering based.  I have been flying KC-135s for the last 11 years, so I
have forgotten most of the Econ by now and although I had an extensive math
background, started out to major in Engineering Sciences, don't expect much
from me there either.  I am well read on the SF front and started playing
Traveller in 1980.  I am a CT kinda guy, but have the Deluxe T4 on order and
am keeping my fingers crossed.  

- --Todd Moody               no web page or cool quotes ;-<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:46:00 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Ringworld, the Movie

At 11:43 AM 4/18/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 02:28 PM 4/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hot on the heels of the soon-to-be Starship Troopers disaster, yet
>>another of my favorite novels is about to be mutilated by Hollywood!
>>Have a look at this, hot off the Reuters newsline:
>>
>>HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - "Ringworld," the best-selling trilogy written and
>>created by sci-fi master Larry Niven, is being developed as a feature film
>>by Quincy
>>Jones' production company.
>
>Pleeaaassseeee let them do it right!

If they do, you can be sure we'll see a sequel that combines Niven's known
space universe with Dune's universe.  You guessed it: "Ringworm!"

Okay, it's an old joke, but I get to trot it out soooo rarely.  I'll be
quiet now.


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:55:34 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:12:31 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:

> 	This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out
> there we could tap into. Say somebody has a very specific question--they'd
> be more likely to ask it if they knew there was somebody "qualified" to
> answer it... Is there any interest in having people post a brief
> description of their real-world background or experience that might be useful?
> 
> I'll kick it off, just to break the ice. I've a degree in aerospace
> engineering, I've managed ballistic missile and ballistic missile defense
> research and analysis projects, and I'm currently working as an engineer
> supporting the operations of the Air Force's most advanced (and complex)
> communications satellite, Milstar.

> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

[vision of Coca-Cola spewing out of my nose]

I'm game, although I doubt my resume is anywhere near as impressive.
I guess we'll just have to bring out the rulers later on and measure
;)

Here goes... (gulp)

I have nearly ten years of automotive repair experience under my belt,
and at one point even considered returning to school to acquire an
engineering degree so I could teach those bozos at GM how to *really*
design a vehicle.  I also race autocross, which requires me to know a
lot about custom vehicle design (as well as how vehicles interact with
a road surface).  I actually managed to get all four wheels on my '90
Sprint Turbo off of the ground at one event *without* the use of any
"ramp-like" device (what a ride *that* was).  I also drove the first
Corvette ZR-1 imported into Canada through a McDonald's Drive Thru
(oooh... ahhh...) :P

I also have thousands of hours of exposure to PBS, the Knowledge
Network, the Learning Channel, the Discovery Channel, and Bill Nye.  I
believe this brings me up to Dave's EDU rating :)

Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:55:32 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:18:38 +0000, you wrote:

> > A parsec away is *nothing*, considering that any starship has a
> > minimum of jump-1.  Any free trader can stop by, and according to the
> > Traveller universe, there are A LOT of them.
> 
> I wouldn't consider a 14 day (one jump there;  one jump 
> back) communication time lag *nothing*--I don't care how many ships 
> you have making the jump.

Jump time is irrelevant since trader captains deal with this every
time his ship moves from system to system.

The key here is whether or not the two systems have any way of
benefiting each other.  If a merchant has a load of TL15 cargo that he
knows he can sell to the TL1 world, or knows that the TL1 world has
something to offer the neighbouring TL15 world, *he will make the
trip*.

> > I wouldn't say that US and Mexico are "vastly" different in regards to
> > tech levels (2, maybe 3 points away at best).  Just because they don't
> > launch their own satellites or have a nuclear capability doesn't make
> > them low tech. 
> 
> Have you been across the border lately?  I have.  Just over the Rio 
> in Acuna, they've got people living in tin shacks with dirt floors.

One town does not represent an entire country.  If I made that opinion
about downtown LA...
 
> These aren't Mexico's homeless--its some of their citizens.  Ever 
> wonder why there are so many revolutionary uprisings?  Ever bought a 
> Mexican car?  Ever wonder why all of those people are so determined 
> to find their ways over here?

This is all irrelevant.  A poor country is not necessarily a lower
tech country.  While it may be true most of the time, it is not
"fact".

> The point was that it is not that unrealistic to have a very high 
> tech level star system next to a very low tech level system.

I never disagreed here.  It was just that you backed up your claim by
referring to two adjoining countries whose dominant difference is
based more on *national wealth* than *technology*.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:05:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: [T97#1209] THUDDD winners...

  Rod Elliot (I hope he doesn't get bent by being called this)
  suggested something along the lines of maybe the THUDDD
  winners being in JTAS "or something".  If each month's winner
  is willing to write an appropriate article around the design,
  Freelance Traveller will be happy to open up a new section
  "Stellar Showroom", wherein the THUDDD winners can be "placed
  on display" for the world to see.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:15:36 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Laser USPs & THUDDD

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> 
> OK,
> 
> In the April THUDDD some people used the TL 12 Heavy laser turret
> from SSDS and came up with USPs of 1/6-5-3-2!!
> 
> By my calculations and according to the rules in SSDS, it should
> come out to 1/2-1-0-0 for a single turret... what am I doing
> wrong??
>  (or, what are they doing wrong?)
> 
> Help!
> 
> Ethan
> -- 
> ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry
> 

I also had a problem with this battery as it consumes one-tenth
of the power of the same (damage-wise) battery in QSDS. There
is clearly a discompatibility between QSDS and SSDS here.

Tommy Grav

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:24:46 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: CSC and Emperor's Arsenal

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.  The weapons table on page 59
of CSC contains weapons that are different from those listed in the
Emperor's Arsenal.

For example:
250 Kg Bomb-5
	CSC gives a damage of 55 explosive, EA has 53 explosive.

Light Autocannon-8
	CSC gives a damage of 9 and a mass of 200 Kg.
	EA gives a damage of 10 (7 exp) and a mass of 270 Kg.

In fact, I cannot find a single weapon that matches exactly between
CSC and EA.  There is also one important difference.  CSC has vehicle
 plasma weapons starting at TL 11, while they are TL 12 under EA.

So, could somebody with a copy of 3G3 find out what a 250 Kg bomb-5
/should/ have in terms of damage, and decide which of these is right.
I'm inclined to think that the values in CSC were tentative, and have
now been superceded by EA.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:27:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 

All right....

Ex-biochemist now doing systems and database administration. I've played
RPG's for a heck of a long time...

I know a LOT about stuff like cytochrome P450 and n-acetyl transferase
mediated metabolism of aromatic amines and polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons, and frankly cannot for the life of me see how that will EVER
be relevant to a discussion on this list, but I'm sure, given the list,
it'll come up someday... 

Man...I wonder how many of us are going to end up: "Well I got a degree in
X and promptly got a job doing something completely different, and now 
I'm on a different continent doing something even more different..." 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:38:29 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

>        This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out
>there we could tap into. Say somebody has a very specific question--they'd
>be more likely to ask it if they knew there was somebody "qualified" to
>answer it... Is there any interest in having people post a brief
>description of their real-world background or experience that might be useful?

I'm a (recently-graduated) PhD astronomer. My current astronomy interests
are extrasolar planets and brown dwarfs, and high-resolution imaging of solar
system objects (Io and Titan in particular.) So I can deal with (some)
astronomy questions...

More relevantly to the perpetual arguments on gdw-beta, I also do quite a bit
of work on astronomical instrumentation - originally infrared cameras, and
now adaptive optics (correcting the blurring due to the earth's atmosphere)
with laser guide stars (using a laser to make an artificial reference source
100km up to use for this correction), so I know a fair amount about sensors,
detection, and lasers. I'm actually currently working at Lawrence Livermore
National Laboratory, but I keep my Traveller mail here at UCLA due to a feeling
that LLNL electronic censors might get slightly befuddled by discussions of
nuclear x-ray lasers and hypervelocity kinetic kill missiles...

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov
bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:04:13 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: a plea

At 03:33 pm 04/18/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Can anyone clue me in as to the contact person for this list? all attempts to
>disconnect from the digest while I'm away next week have been met with
failure.
>Ideas?

	rwm@mpgn.com monitors the list; however, the list is controlled by the
majordomo robot at majordomo@mpgn.com. Try sending a message with the line
"HELP" to the robot.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:47:36 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

At 11:18 am 04/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> The laser batteries do not fire just one shot during those 10 minutes.
>> Due to extremely long distances and the (relatively) small size of the
>> target one "shot" from a battery is in reality many shots spread around a
>> wide area, like a buck shot from a shotgun.
>
>Gotcha.  So, when playing Traveller Starship combat, it's really more 
>of an abstract system--kinda like the D&D 1 minute combat round or 
>the 8 hour turns that a lot of war games have.
>
>Hmm.  I wonder if it is worth the work to scale down the Starship 
>combat rules so that you could have 6 second combat rounds (or, I'd 
>settle for 1 minute combat rounds) so that you could focus on the 
>roleplaying inside the character's ship.

	I'd think you'd better be prepared to play boredom fairly well. Space
combat is slow and tedious.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:45:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

At 11:18 am 04/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Believe it or not, in the 14 years that I've been playing Traveller, 
>I've never done a space battle using the space combat rules.
>
>Most of the action that I've seen in Traveller either happened planet 
>side or inside a ship.  When a fight did come up, I usually winged it 
>with a focus to what was happening inside the ship--the focus was on 
>role playing.
>
>With my current campaign, I'm looking at using more ship fights 
>(heck, we've got the Fifth Frontier War coming up!), and I'm curious 
>which set of starship combat rules do people like.

	I'll preface this by saying that I'm (a) a gearhead, (b) an engineer, and
(c) was on the "science" side of the recent Sturm und Drang between realism
and playability. I've also only played ship combat a few times as part of a
campaign.

>The CT basic system from the Little Black Books, Starter Traveller, 
>and the Traveller Book.

	A bit unwieldy--the only time I ever used it, we got a great big plywood
board out of a friend's basement, and used thumbtacks to represent the ships.

>The Book 5 High Guard system.

	Never could get into it. "Line" and "Reserve" just never made sense to me
in a 3D environment.

>Mayday.

	Just recently got it. Big plus--it's got a realistic movement system.

>The MT system from the Referee's Manual.

	HG revisited. Blech.

>Basic system in TNE main book.

	Never even finished reading through it. Seems to be BL without the movement.

>Brilliant Lances.

	*Loved* it. The detail level is high, which is good and bad. Good, because
your players' skills will directly impact the results--gunner, pilot,
engineer, etc. You can tell them exactly what got hit, where, how badly.

	Bad, because setup can take a while, filling out the form. I
shortcircuited this by typing all the ship control panels into Word. Put
them into a sheetprotector, and use overhead markers.

	The first few times you play, parts will go slow. I'd recommend a
"standalone" combat one night, just to get used to the rules.

	Ditch the complicated (and failed) attempt at a realistic movement system,
and grab Mayday! movement.

>Battle Rider.

	Haven't played it; seems more a fleet-action oriented system. I ran out
and bought this one when I heard rumors GDW was in trouble, just to try and
help. I also try to put out house fires with bodily fluids ...

>And...
>
>The hard to follow system in T4's Book 1.

	Execrable.
>
>
>The question is:
>
>Which starship combat system is your favorite?
>
>I'm curious, and I want to hear what the distiguished, learned 
>members of this list perfer in way of their starship combats.

	Well, I don't know what they like, but these are my opinions...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:05:56 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

> I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
> stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
> reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
> don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
> and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.

Actually, as a person with a history degree and only the most minute 
interest in most of the things above ( with the exception of Imperial 
politics ), I'm very interested in the make-up of the society of the 
Imperium at large.

Maybe I am the only one that cares about this, but as it IS an ongoing 
discussion, I'd say someone cares about it.
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:04:40 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani names

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:05:39 -0400
> From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
> Subject: Vilani names
> 
> As a follow on to the "do Vilani name ships?" thread, in my campaign
> they name bits of land, but not oceans.  The thinking is that since
> the water moves around, how can you ever point to the same bit of
> ocean twice?  I came up with this after looking at the maps of Enaaka
> in the Deneb sector.  The continents have Vilani names, but the oceans
> are all named in Anglic.

If you look at the map of Vland itself (Vilani & Vargr inside front
cover) you will see that the Vilani do name their oceans and seas.
They have names like Irup Khligash Ar, Uunkida Gar, Arzemiir, Kigunar
Iruplan Ar, Dir Gar, Padusdaam Sakugar Ki, and Eshka Ar.  This tends to
suggest to me that the Villani word for sea or ocean is Ar and  Gar is a
variant form.

Interestingly the seas and oceans on Lair, the Vargrs second home world,
are not named, but the bodies of water on  Terra and Kusyu are (Solomani
and Aslan).  Maybe it is the Vargr who don't always name bodies of
water.
 
> It is also interesting that in the 3rd Imperium, X-boats are not named
> but numbered.  Maybe the Vilani are similar to the Idirians in
> _Consider Phlebas_, with their "Hand of God 489" or whatever it was.

I had always assumed that a deliberate choice not to name the XBoats was
made by a committee who figured out how many names they would need to
come up with and decided that it was more trouble than it was worth. Or
if you want to continue the tradition of Illuminated Traveller the
secret controllers of the Imperium did not want the details of the flow
of information in the Imperium (which could be followed by tracing
XBoats) to be known.  After all it is easier to change a number than a
name...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 1889 drives

> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:50:24 -0600 (CST)
> From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
> 
[wrt Space: 1889]
> If you could tell me a few things about the game, like:
> 
> - -what propells space craft??  How do they startravel, as opposed to space
> travel??

Ether propellers.  In Space: 1889, the Luminiferous Ether (a medium in
which light propagates, much as sound waves propagate in air) is real,
just as 19th century science (in general) believed.  An ether propeller is
a rotating, electrically charged gizmo at the back of a spacecraft; the
particular pattern of charging used allows it to push against the ether
just as a normal propeller pushes against air or water.  The technology
was invented by Thomas Edison, by the way, who built a prototype and flew
it to Mars with Jack Armstrong and a third person whom I can't recall
offhand. 

Space: 1889 never covered interstellar travel (to my knowledge), but
there'd certainly be nothing stopping you from trying...with the gosh-wow
science feel in the game, handwaving into existence a dangerous prototype
ether 'speedboat' fast enough to reach Proxima Centauri in a few months
wouldn't be out of place.

> - -What is the scope of the game??  where does it take place? on just Mars and
> earth?

No, it takes place throughout the Solar System -- as the solar system was
imagined prior to the mid-20th century.  Mars has canals and ancient
feuding races, Venus is a steaming jungle planet with dinosaurs and
lizardmen, Mercury is a one-face world with a slim habitable zone along
the twilight line, Luna has an evil underground civilization, and so
forth. 

My favorite description is that it's set in the solar system, the way the
solar system *should* be. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:07:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

Fri, 18 Apr 97 19:11 BST-1, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)

>Bearing in mind Norris's clone is female, how would it affect her? Would
>she be gay from her point of view (ie attracted to women) or his (ie
>attracted to men - in other words, straight)?

If you want to assume that Norris was gay because of his genetics,
and that anyone with those genes is gay (quite a bit of assuming
but all things that are not proven or disproven by current evidence,
though that last part is a bit of a jump), then you have to
decide a few things...
1) Is the gene present on the Y chromosome?  If so the clone
isn't gay.
2) Otherwise, It could go either way.  One might think that
a gene "wired" you to be attracked to a fixed gender (as
opposed a gender based on what you already are) would be
simpler (and hence more likely).  OTOH, attraction is
clearly set up to be relative to your gender.  OTOOH
(on the "other other" hand :-), it may be that the
attraction is absolute but for some people the gene
for attraction to the men turns itself on regardless
of whether you are male or not.

The bottom line is that there simply isn't any data
to make this kind of determination....

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:23:03 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

> Before it was mentioned on this mailing
>list, I never even gave a thought that Norris was gay, when I was
>reading about Norris I was always more interested in what his relations
>with the Zhodani or Aslan were like.  

Yes, but dont you think considering the highly gender-oriented Aslan way 
of dealing with things, that the fact that Norris could be gay would have 
a high effect on those relations?   I would say it was a distinct 
possibility.  Indeed, I'd be willing to wager that an Aslan would be the 
biggest homophobe you knew.  Consider how that would effect relations 
with them and you'll perhaps see how this affects the political structure 
of the Marches and the Domain of Deneb as a whole.

John
- -- 

"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:17:06 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Racism and Sexism

>> It would seem a culturally Imperial Vargr in the Imperium would face 
>an
>> uphill struggle against just the sort of racism we're discussing.

>Yes but I think that its clearly not impossible or we would not have
>seen Archduke Bzzrk (sp ?).

So... I guess the question now is would the average person on the average 
world care if Norris had come right out and said " Hey, I'm a 
homosexual."  The fact that we are having this discussion implies that 
yes they would care, else it would be clearer.

Further, how do the Darrians, Sword Wolders, Zhos and Aslan feel about 
this?  In a text written by a TMLer several years back called " 
Traveller's Little Talk for When You're Old Enough ", it was stated that 
the Aslan found male homosexuality to be highly dishonorable.  I feel 
that fits in with accepted canon concerning the Aslan.  Is this perhaps 
why he kept closeted?

Just a thought.

>No the canonical references to the Darmine are very few.  I have
>essentially made up a background for the Darmine based on my playing of
>a charecter who was 1/2 Darmine and was culturally Darmine.  I have
>never written it up a a _racial_ description but I may do so sometime.

I look forward to seeing this if you do write it up.

John

- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:48:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: the agy thread...

Someone (I don't know as I stupidly deleted the message) said something to
the effect of:

"What about the Aslan? Wouldn't they be the biggest homophobes around?"

STOP. Stop right there! The Aslan are ALIENS, not people in fuzz suits,
not talking lions, not Klingon stand-ins in the Traveller Universe, but
ALIENS!!!

Why...these are _Humans_ they're dealing with after all! Why would an
Aslan CARE about what some of these furless tree apes with no concept of
honor did in their bedrooms to each other. Besides, who could tell? It's
not like they're easy to tell apart!!

And the managing female Aslan sighs, and tries to figure out how to get
the trade negotiations back on track.

We term Aslan 'male' and 'female' for convenience sake, because of the
roles they seem to take on in their societies (and their biology IIRC,
Aslan females bear the young)

What their sexual roles are are probably waaaay beyond our comprehension,
as ours are to them.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1222
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1223



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller 1965 timeline
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: Antimatter containment
Who are We (was Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Those pesky Skill Levels
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
[Fwd: FWD>>  Listserv Humor]
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Die Mods and KBv2.0
Gun damage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:07:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller 1965 timeline

Great stuff, lets see more of it...

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:10:14 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

On 04/18/97 at 12:59 PM,  "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
said:

> Consider, for example firing at a ship 4 light-seconds away (and thats
> four hexes).

Whoa!  I agreed with a lot of what you said, but not this!  

C is about 300,000km/s, and we've pretty much been using 30,000km hexes, so
there are 10 hexes in ONE light second.  Four light seconds is 1,200,000km
or *40* hexes!  To me that's long range, with a low probability of getting
a hit.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:12:38 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Antimatter containment

On 04/17/97 at 10:15 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> >    I remember reading an article several years ago about the theoretical
> > possibility of storing antimatter in the interstices of a crystalline
> > matrix. I don't recall how the author proposed getting the antiatoms IN or
> > OUT of the storage crystal, but once there, it was supposedly quite secure.

> Part of the trick is that you aren't storing anti-atoms, just
> anti-protons. So the "electron cloud" in the crystal helps.

Ah, ha! I *thought* I'd seen something like this somewhere.  Maybe we could
still drop by the local A/M filling station and fill'er up. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:41:30 -0700
From: Danny_M._Moody@mailhost.bridge.com (Danny M. Moody)
Subject: Who are We (was Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

>I also drove the first
>Corvette ZR-1 imported into Canada through a McDonald's Drive Thru
>(oooh... ahhh...) :P

Now that *is* impressive.  ZR-1s are so neat...

>I also have thousands of hours of exposure to PBS, the Knowledge
>Network, the Learning Channel, the Discovery Channel, and Bill Nye.  I
>believe this brings me up to Dave's EDU rating :)
>
>Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

Sure, what the heck:

[Dating Game music in background]

        Three years out of college, with a degree in computer science, minoring 
in physics (emphasis on astrophysics).  Took me six years to get my degree 
because of two misguided years in aerospace engineering.

        Have worked on medical databases and co-wrote the first live 
perioperative charting system to go on line (hospital in Cedar Rapids, Iowa), 
and am now a system analyst with a world-wide brokerage firm.  On of my programs
(Bridge Workstation) is also going to be in a move coming out soon (_The Game_ 
starring Michael Douglas and Sean Penn).

        Not *too* bad for this 26 year old...

        Extensive readings in medieval, Roman, and (US) Revolutionary history.  
Beginning swordsman and armourer (though I do *great* mail).  I also am 
completely addicted to TLC (Totalitarian Leaders Channel), TDC (The Dictator's 
Channel), A&E (Adolph and Eichman Channel), etc, etc: just about the only TV I 
watch (besides Babylon 5 and Joe Bob Briggs Drive-In)  Traveller player/GM since
1980.

        As for my greatest achievement, I was lucky enough to marry a wonderful 
woman with degrees in history and political science, and MPA, and ABD on her 
Ph.D.

        -Vanya

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 16:49:23 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Those pesky Skill Levels

On 04/18/97 at 12:09 AM,  rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough) said:

> >...why keep skill levels at all when
> >attribute + xps is your target number? Because the char gen system >has
> skills? Then convert each skill to 3 xps and be done with it.

> Skill levels are used as DMs in several tasks (Like JoAT and Brawling). I
> prefer writing the skill levels down over having to recalculate them
> every time you use them.

Calculate and write down the ones you need (like JoAT and Brawling), and
ignore the rest.  I can see a reason for a reduced JOAT effect, not sure I
see one for Brawling.  Just how many other skills use Attribute +
Skill-points/3,d rather than Attribute + Skill-points?

Eris

ps. Ken and Richard, please consider this *good-natured* banter, not
mean-spirited attacks! As you probably know, I'm over in a different part
of the field when it comes to the task system...same basic field, mind you,
just way, *way* out in left with my Aptitudes. ;-> -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:03:01 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

On 04/18/97 at 06:29 PM,  Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au> said:

> Given the uproar with the Science debate (which I am partly resposable
> :-(  ), I was thinking of designing steam or desil powered spaceships
> (with wooden hulls).

Sounds like Space 1799, or maybe Space 1849! ;->  

> Premise 1 to justify this : Metal poor world, what metals have to be
> allocated to power generation and ship frames.

Doesn't *have* to be metal poor world.  You could go the "1889" route of
postulating something like needing a "liftwood" hull to give your craft the
ability to lift above the atmosphere.  Or just run the base Tech level at 3
or 4, and make *certain* technologies *much* easier to discover. ;->

> Premise 2: Wooden hulls over a mettal frame, with a rubber coating to
> keep air in. (It has the armour value of a wet sponge, but there is a
> tree in Australia called "Ironbark" which is very tough [axes bounce off
> it]. if this culture has acccess to this type of wood, it would have good
> strength [but still no real armour])

Remember, the old wooden ships often had metal plate on their
bottoms, and along their waterlines.  You might have metal armor bolted on
selected parts of your ships.

> Premise 3 : Vacuume tube computers! (or babbage engines, I tend to go to
> vacuume tubes, because they have more computing power than an old Model
> 1bis :-)

I use vacuum tube technology in my games too.  (You can have quantum effect
transisters OR anti-gravity..and the space drives that come with it, but
not both.  ;-> Space faring cultures opt for
anti-gravity.)

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:21:09 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

On 04/18/97 at 11:18 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> Hmm.  I wonder if it is worth the work to scale down the Starship  combat
> rules so that you could have 6 second combat rounds (or, I'd  settle for
> 1 minute combat rounds) so that you could focus on the  roleplaying
> inside the character's ship.

I'm trying..fitfully, but trying!  One minute turns anyway, ;-> and
precisely for the purpose of PBEM roleplaying.  James Garriss and Bob
Sanders are working on something like this, too.   Joe Walsh's RPSCS
started off headed in that direction, but got detoured to 30 minute turns
somewhere along the way. 

> (Scratching chin)  I wonder....

Yeah, I do too...<wink>

Things to wonder about..if you go to 1 minute turns:

1.  And keep 30,000km hexes as the basic scale, then you've got to
drastically increase ship velocities, to travel even *1* hex in 1
minute requires a velocity of 1.8 million kph, or make movement
rates something like 1 hex per 6 turns.

2.  And keep velocities about where they are now, then you've got to
drastically decrease the basic 30,000km range scale...and all the
effects that will have on weapons!

3.  And keep the current weapon ranges, then everyone will stay at
such long ranges that you will fire and fire and fire, hitting every
30 or 40 turns.

4.  And have an exciting chance of hitting the other ship, then you
will need to drasticly reduce the ranges of the weapons.  This force
combatants to close to ranges where the chances of a hit grow high
enough to be fun.

    4a.  And then you might have to reduce the damage value of the
    weapons, or increase the armor value of the ships.
    
    4b.  And you certainly will have to change the published weapons
    to reflect the shorter ranges, etc.
    
See, I've been wondering too!    


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:05:14 -0700
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: [Fwd: FWD>>  Listserv Humor]

I recently received the message below and thought in LIGHT of the lists
latest discussions I'd post it.

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

> *******************************************************************
> Q:  How many list subscribers does it take to change a light
> bulb?
> 
> A:  1,331
> 
> 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that
> they did it.
> 
> 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and
> how the
> light bulb could have been changed differently.
> 
> 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
> 
> 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about
> changing light
> bulbs.
> 
> 53 to flame the spell checkers
> 
> 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the
> light
> bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.
> 
> 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
> 
> 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to
> please take
> this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
> 
> 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar,
> alt.spelling and
> alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.
> 
> 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are
> all use
> light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this
> mail
> list.
> 
> 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is
> superior, where
> to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work
> best for
> this technique, and what brands are faulty.
> 
> 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different
> light bulbs
> 
> 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to
> post
> corrected URLs.
> 
> 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are
> relevant to
> this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.
> 
> 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them
> including all
> headers and footers, and then add "Me Too."
> 
> 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because
> they cannot
> handle the light bulb controversey.
> 
> 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
> 
> 5 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
> 
> 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
> 
> 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant
> for,
> leave it here.
> 
> 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb.
> 
> 1 to point out that the correct number should be 1,332.
> 
> 1 to wonder if the person asking that makes it 1,333.
> 
> 6 to say the inability to deal with numbers shows the sorry
> state of
> education under the Republican/Democratic regimes.
> 
> 7 to argue on the educational budgets under
> Democrats/Republicans
> 
> 3 to blame Hillary Clinton.
> 
> 18 to flame the others.
> 
> 1 new subscriber to ask what the original question was and
> could someone
> bring him/her up to date?
> 
> 1 list owner to intervene.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:39:06 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> 
> I don't see the problem with having high tech systems next to low 
> tech systems.
> 
> I mean, we're talking about solar systems here, and a parsec is a 
> long way away even given the technology and drives in Traveller.

A parsec is a week and 8,000 credits, less if you feel lucky.  Much less
if you're freight rather than a sophont.  That's not very far.

> Communicators can't reach that far on any practical level, and in a 
> lot of cases, the next parsec might as well be on the other side of 
> the Imperium.

I'd call ship/xboat electronic messaging and package delivery over a
one-week delay pretty practical communication.  The US held together
rather well at a time when parts of the country were at least *three*
weeks away from Washington even via special mounted courier, and more like
two months via scheduled postal runs.

> We see this type of dichotomy in a lot of real life areas on 
> even much smaller scales.

Not really.

> Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different 
> tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same 
> contintent.

"Vastly different?"  The US is borderline TL 8, perhaps higher in computer
technology and the like.  Mexico is unarguably borderline TL 7, more
probably a solid mid-7; they produce cars, electronics, and other
high-tech gadgetry *for export to the US*, as well as sale to their own
citizens, and a full infrastructure of power, roads, and so forth to
support and use these tools exists.  Mexico and the US are at the very
most one TL apart, and I think about half a TL is a better description.

The lowest-tech *countries* (not isolated tribes) on the planet are
currently low TL 6.  Even those few isolated tribes of lower TL are
rapidly disappearing as they assimilate into higher-tech societies
surrounding them.

> States here in the US are like that too.  Texas is pretty prosperous, 
> as states go, but it borders two of the poorest states in the 
> country--Louisiana and Arkansas.

Poor, yes, but you'll find TL 7 manufacturing and repair facilities in
abundance in both states, and a smattering of TL 8 around New Orleans.  TL
does not necessarily correlate perfectly to affluence, though in general
it's a good rule of thumb. 

> Or, how about cities that are close to each other.  Take Houston and 
> Galveston, for instance, or Houston and Baytown--we're talking two 
> different worlds.

Culturally, perhaps, economically, quite likely, technologically -- no
way.  Culture, affluence, and technology are independent variables.

> I bet that you can even pick out a section in your city that is like 
> this.

The poorest part of my city (Los Angeles) is the region due south of
downtown.  Part of the reason housing is so cheap there is that Vernon is
smack dab in the middle of it.  Vernon is a tiny city with a population of
about 70; it's jammed with heavy industry that locates there for the
massive tax advantages, and because there's a major rail yard there.  A
good chunk of the high-TL-7 chemical synthesis going on in LA is happening
precisely in the very poorest part of the city.

Conversely, Beverly Hills is one of the richest parts of the city...but
move it into isolation, and the people would have virtually *no*
locally-produced technology.  Nothing gets manufactured, and very little
repaired, inside Bev Hills itself; virtually everything is imported for
sale, or sent elsewhere for repairs.  Bev Hills thrown on its own
resources would be TL 4-5, tops.

> If you keep looking, you can continue to see more examples like 
> this, and, citing this,  I don't think it is strange at all to have 
> a very high TL star system right next door to a very low TL star 
> system.

My point is that technology spreads differently from, and much better
than, wealth.  In LA, the rich people have shiny new TL 7.9 sports cars,
and the poor people have clunky old TL 7.1 junkers...big difference in
style, comfort, reliability, and so forth, but basically similar
technology.  Even those without cars ride TL 7.5 buses and TL 7.8
light-rail trains.  Tech seeps into *all* the cracks.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:29:37 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

 
> The CT basic system from the Little Black Books, Starter Traveller, 
> and the Traveller Book.
 
I've played this, and it was fun, but Mayday was much easier (and I
*know* you have Mayday ;-)

> The Book 5 High Guard system.

HG is good for fleet actions, and as a quick way to generate results
for roleplaying---it leaves a lot in the dark though, and myself,
and others I've played with like to drive ships around more than
totally abstract ranges.
 
> Mayday.
 
Pretty good.  You can always use HG for fire and damage resolution.
I would be inclined to not use agility as a DM on HG fire in this
case unless the ship is evading.  What you'd do is require ships to
use part of their m-drive capability for evasion (if they have any
left after maneuver).  Use that for the Agility DM, but don't allow
it to exceed their agility rating.

> The MT system from the Referee's Manual.
 
Never really used it much, but you could tack the tasks onto Mayday
and use them...

> Brilliant Lances.

Time consuming to set up, but once you have everything together
(Dave Golden has some great ship forms on his site (er, or did
anyway)) to play.  I have some fixes/additions to the system to add
detail, but frankly I'm swinging in the other direction these days
:-)

> Battle Rider.
 
Battle Rider isn't bad at all once you fix some basic problems
(which were fairly major).  I have those fixes, and they are also on
some web sites.  It has a MAyday-like movement system, and is good
for fleet actions, though the damage system is all in terms of
critical hits, so players ships will get toasted pretty quickly
unless they are crew on a ship of the line.

> The hard to follow system in T4's Book 1.
 
Broken beyond repair, IMHO.  

You might try the Role Playing Space Combat System on Wildstar's
page---it's pretty good for player dominated games (all personal
task based---I give the computers more credit than an 1970s
calculator, so I have a little trouble with it ;-)  <===note smile
(no flame intended!)
 
> Which starship combat system is your favorite?
 
I like Mayday/HG bash pretty well, and I'm working on a BR/BL/T4
bash that is about like MD/HG.  The problem with MD/HG is that it
doesn't use the new design system results.

I also like more sensor ops in there, unfortunately, the more I
think About it, the harder it is *not* to be detected.  BR handles
this pretty  well since you stay detected once Locked up, which
makes a lot of sense.

You could use BR or MD with any fire/dmage resolution system,
however, and that would be my suggestion.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:32:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

 
> >"very fast"  Again, ditch this notation as it makes no sense at all.
> 
> Any battle rider is going to either be faster or nastier than a jump

Unlikely.  Ships of the line in traveller are almost always built to
maximum Mdrive that g-comp can support.  The point of batteriders
was that they could use the space for jdrive and fuel for
weapons/armor.

> capable ship in real space.  Therefore, if your naval doctrine has put
> faster drives on the battle riders, any ship that is capable of keeping up
> with them is going to be referred to as fast, because it can catch a jump
> ship.
 
Nah, mdrive is cheap, and the best defense for any ship since
evasion works against all weapons.

Also, I hate calling high acceleration "fast."

> If your doctrine has gone for better weaponry, then the word "fast" means
> little, but your battle riders are going to pulverize any comparable
> tonnage and cost ship they meet.

True, but it still ain't "fast." :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:41:45 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

At 02:38 pm 04/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>detection, and lasers. I'm actually currently working at Lawrence Livermore
>National Laboratory, but I keep my Traveller mail here at UCLA due to a
feeling
>that LLNL electronic censors might get slightly befuddled by discussions of
>nuclear x-ray lasers and hypervelocity kinetic kill missiles...

	Now you know why I don't get Traveller mail at my place of work! ("Excuse
me, captain. Could you please explain this email about knocking down
spacecraft?") At one point I sent out an email to somebody in New Zealand.
A full month later, they received the message ... minus body, just the
headers. And since the security folks weren't smart enough to put the
server's sent mail log on a non-accessible drive, I figure about 1/3 of my
off-base mail gets rerouted to the SP shop for review before getting out.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:37:33 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

At 05:23 pm 04/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Before it was mentioned on this mailing
>>list, I never even gave a thought that Norris was gay, when I was
>>reading about Norris I was always more interested in what his relations
>>with the Zhodani or Aslan were like.  
>
>Yes, but dont you think considering the highly gender-oriented Aslan way 
>of dealing with things, that the fact that Norris could be gay would have 
>a high effect on those relations?

	Wow! This just raises a really big question in my mind--I don't really
care either way about whether Norris pitches or catches... but what about
sexual orientation in other Traveller species? Especially one like the
Aslan, which has gender-specific behavioural patterns that seem to be at
least in part biologically driven? And how does sexual orientation affect
those?

	No big question about Vargr...anybody who's owned a dog knows they'll
mount just about anything that holds still (what do you do when a pit bull
starts humping your leg? Fake an orgasm!).

	Sorry <G>
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:13:36 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Die Mods and KBv2.0

Looking at die modifiers and KBv2.0:



I've received two private posts from two different people this 
week who had questions about KBv2.0.  

These two posts contained something that surprised me, and since two 
people have written me asking questions about the same topic, I 
thought that I'd post an answer here in case there are any others out 
there using KBv2.0 having the same question.

The question revolves around die modifiers when using KBv2.0.

Do you need to alter the DMs in any way when you use my alternate 
task system?  

Answer:  No.

Does a +1 DM, when you are using KBv2.0, give you as much benefit as 
it does when using the official T4 task system?

Answer:  Yes.



One of the questions I got revolved around the optional tactical pool 
that you can find on page 60 of Book 1, and it makes for a good 
example--so I'll use it here.

This person's questions was:  Does a +1 in KBv2.0 benefit you as much 
as it does in T4, and what can you do to the tactical pool so that 
you can recieve the same amount of benefit in KBv2.0?

Again, the answer is yes, a +1 DM (or any DM) will give you the 
same benefit no matter which of the two task systems you are using, 
so, you don't have to do anything to the tactical pool  Use it just 
like it is written in the book.

KBv2.0 was designed to fit as seamlessly as possible with the 
existing T4 rules.  If you had to go around changeing all the 
modifiers, the system wouldn't be an easy fit with the official T4 
game mechanics, and frankly, I wouldn't be advocating the system.



Comparison of DMs between KBv2.0 and T4:

Comparing KBv2.0 and T4 is like comparing apples and oranges because 
of the different philosophy taken towards the impact of skills on the 
success chance of a task.  In KBv2.0, the emphasis is ballanced 
between skills and attributes.  In T4, the emphasis is on attributes 
with tweaking done by a character's skill level.

But, you can still compare the two systems, and you might be 
surprised at how close they are.

Our example character is Sonep.  Sonep's going to attempt a Difficult 
task.                       Sonep         Skill-3, Attribute-7

In T4, Sonep has a target number of 10.
In KBv2.0, Sonep has a target number of 16.

A Difficult task in T4 is a  2.5 D proposition.
A Difficult task in KBv2.0 is a 4 D proposition.

The probability of rolling the T4 task is 71.3%.
The probability of rolling the KBv2.0 task is 76.08%.



Now, let's say that Sonep gets a +1 DM from his friendly gamemaster.



Sonep's target number in T4 becomes 11.
Sonep's target number in KBv2.0 becomes 17.

The probability of rolling the T4 task becomes 82.4%.
The probability of rolling the KBv2.0 task becomes 84.1%.


As you can see, the changes because of the DM are relative--they're 
not exact because of the nature of 6 sided dice, but they're pretty 
damn close.

If you have any questions, contact me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:03:14 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Gun damage

Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with
hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->

 / Per

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1223
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 18 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1224



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: CSC and Emperor's Arsenal
Re: Vilani names
Re: Missoury Archive Question
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Jumpdrive
Re: [Sorry] and a question.
Re: My resume
Re: Gun damage
Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: 1889 drives
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Biography  (was Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: Ringworld, the Movie
Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 
Who we are
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: Those pesky Skill Levels
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:12:12 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> I've got a copy kicking around.  It's about 300KB and for Windows
> only, I'm afraid.  If anyone needs it I can send out a copy via
> private email.

I'd really like to take a look at it.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:11:36 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

> I never disagreed here.  It was just that you backed up your claim by
> referring to two adjoining countries whose dominant difference is
> based more on *national wealth* than *technology*.


What kind of computer does Mexico produce? 

 What kind of high tech jet military fighter aircraft does Mexico 
produce? 

 What kind of space program does Mexico have?   

What technological advances has Mexico made recently?

Get the picture?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:23:46 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

James Lindsay wrote:

< Lots of stuff removed >

> Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

Well, I suppose I could do that, though there isn't much to tell. I'm
still in college, more exactly I'm at the end of my third year working
on a Master of Science Degree in Computer Science. (lot of science in
that degree! :) ) I'm specializing in algorithmics and software
development. After I'm finished with this degree I might try and go for
a PhD, but I haven't really descided yet. Not much more to tell...
Anybody else?

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:11:35 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: CSC and Emperor's Arsenal

> I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.  The weapons table on page 59
> of CSC contains weapons that are different from those listed in the
> Emperor's Arsenal.
> 
> For example:
> 250 Kg Bomb-5
> 	CSC gives a damage of 55 explosive, EA has 53 explosive.

> So, could somebody with a copy of 3G3 find out what a 250 Kg bomb-5
> /should/ have in terms of damage, and decide which of these is right.


Uhh, one of these bombs you cite was manufactured on Aramis and the 
other on Junidy?  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:11:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani names

> If you look at the map of Vland itself (Vilani & Vargr inside front
> cover) you will see that the Vilani do name their oceans and seas.
> They have names like Irup Khligash Ar, Uunkida Gar, Arzemiir, Kigunar
> Iruplan Ar, Dir Gar, Padusdaam Sakugar Ki, and Eshka Ar.  This tends to
> suggest to me that the Villani word for sea or ocean is Ar and  Gar is a
> variant form.
> 
> Interestingly the seas and oceans on Lair, the Vargrs second home world,
> are not named, but the bodies of water on  Terra and Kusyu are (Solomani
> and Aslan).  Maybe it is the Vargr who don't always name bodies of
> water.

No, they name them alright.  It's just that the name changes so fast 
that it is not worth printing it!  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:43:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missoury Archive Question

In a message dated 97-04-17 11:42:33 EDT, you write:

<< I'm looking for sector data, so i went on Missoury Archives and I found in
 the GENERAL directory 3 subdirectories :
  >>
What is the address of these archives?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:43:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

A question comes to mind. Are we assuming that there is some sort of database
that tracks all the orbits of all known solarsystems on every ship?  That
would be necessary for the calculations you are refering to prior to jump.
 If there is no such database merely rough data on each system on orbit
distances, then you would have to plot planetary positions after Jump and all
you need is to get in system, perhaps below the orbital plane.  Just food for
thought.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jumpdrive

In a message dated 97-04-12 11:47:17 EDT, you write:

<< The solar power shouldn't be too much problem either,
 it just takes too long time to charge. What group of players would want
 a ship which would have to wait perhaps several days to charge up the
 jumpdrive.
 
  / Per >>
Was cleaning out my filing cabinet and came across this....
This might make an excellent backup Jump system for emergencies.  It takes
several weeks to recharge but will save their hides.  Kinda like that crappy
tiny spare tire that you get now when you buy a new car instead of a real
tire.  Its designed for one-time use long enough to get to a service station
for repairs.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:43:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sorry] and a question.

In a message dated 97-04-17 14:05:35 EDT, you write:

<< 
 >Now my question, and I promise I will not abuse, heckel, attack or
 >dismember anyone who answers, how is hyperspace and "Jumping" explained in
 >Traveller? or is it just hand waved.
 >
 >Is it something to do with time manipulation?  I only ask because a jump
 >takes 1 week no matter the Jump rating (If I remember correctly).
 
 The jump drive operates by opening a hole into a type of "hyperspace",
 called jump space strangely enough.  There are 36 known "levels" of jump
 space, although only the first six are able to be used reliably.  
 
 A ship's jump drive is a large fusion plant, designed to burn a great amount
 of fuel in a very short period to provide the burst of power needed to tear
 open the hole in normal space.  There is some debate as to how much jump
 fuel is actually used as fuel, and how much is used as coolant, but that
 seems to be more a matter of style.
 
 Starships have either inner jump coils (Classic Traveller) or a hull grid
 (Mega Traveller+) made of lanthanum.  (I prefer the hull grid theory.)  The
 lanthanum is vital to opening the jump hole, and is quite valuable as a
result.
 
 The mechanics of astrogation are glossed over in the rules... there is a was
 to set your course, but we aren't really told what it is.  Most starports
 sell or provide pre-set jump coordinates for neighboring systems.
 
 Each jump number indicates what level of j-space it can enter.  A Jump-2
 ship can enter jumpspace that will allow it to travel 2ly in approx 168
 hours (+/- 10%).  The largest jump possible, at TL15, is six.  The only way
 to jump further is through an uncontrolled mis-jump, which can take you up
 to 36ly away from your starting point!
 
 --
 +-------------------------------------------------+
 |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   | >>

I once had it explained to me this way:
Picture a piece of paper that represents part of space.  Label one point as
the departure point and another point on the the far side as point of
destination. To get from one point to another the Jump drive can somehow fold
space.  Picture folding the paper and putting the point of departure and
point of destination together.  Viola'. You Jump from one point to the other
without crossing the realspace in between.  The week time frame is much
handwaving.  (as is the whole theory for that matter)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:51:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: My resume

 
Ok, I'm jumping on the bandwagon, just cuz I can't wait to actually
GET my %&^% Master's degree :) :)
 
	I've got a comp.sci. degree (nothing fascinating here) and
I'm soon to get my Master's degree - thesis is on neural networks, so
I'm reasonably knowledgeable on that, genetic algorithms, AI
general...
 
	I also worked on the ADATS/LLADS system here in Canada (it's
basically a troop transport with 8 laser-guided missiles on top to
shoot at airplanes and other tanks - fun stuff :). 
 
	Hm, I also have a minor partnership in a game store here in
Quebec... That pretty much covers it all as far as Traveller goes.
 
Oh, speaking of AI - I went to the library today to check out that
article on Eurisko and AI systems that play Traveller starship
battles...  Strangely enough, vol. 21 was the ONLY volume missing
from the whole collection...  I suspect a rival ship engineer of
counterespionnage. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:55:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

 
> Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
> a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
> knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with

That never bothered me, I hate systems that aren't deadly enough :-)

> hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->

Wow, through and through with the arm traumatically amputated.  He
goes quickly into shock, and bleeds to death without fast medical
attention.  Tying off his arm will at least keep him from bleeding
to death, but that is a nasty wound.

The trick is that the combat system should kill people easily, but
not easily within the confines of combat rounds which are very short
intervals.  Deadly systems tend to get the end results the same as
they would be with no medical care, but exaggerate things in typical
5 second intervals (IMHO).

I imagine it takes several minutes for most gunshot casualties to
die even if mortally wounded, though they might be unable to fight
fairly quickly.

Another thing to look at is the scumbag factor---rate NPCs and PCs
by how nice they are, nice guys die fast, the scumbags tend to be
indestructable :-)  Damara maintains that niceness is a "poor
prognostic indicator" from her hectic intern experience. Hmmm, maybe
she'll get home soon *sigh*  :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:03:59 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

Okay -- I've posted twice, maybe three times on the list, but I figure
SOMEONE's gotta show the humanities/social-science gearhead flag.

My undergrad work at U. Washington was in Sanskrit & Tibetan philology and
anthropology; grad schoool at U. Michigan in ethnology.  I'm out of school
now, working in biomedical research administration (don't ask how, let
alone *why*, please) -- but am scrambling to get back into grad school for
another go -- 17th-18th century Chinese history (Manchu language policy and
social history).  I suppose my fields of alleged expertise are linguistics,
history (East Asian), archeology, and ethnology, for purposes of the TML.
I'd enjoy seeing more discussion of the Traveller universe along these
lines, too.

As far as Traveller goes, I'm a CT 100% from way back, but haven't played
or even kept up with the timeline development since about 1989 or
thereabouts.  This Rebellion and Virus thing has been a real shock for me.
I'm interested in doing background sorts of things for Traveller, but not
playing at this point -- a pocket empire or two, maybe.

For the record:  1) I like the *idea* of fighters in Traveller, but don't
see how they're widely useful in any practical way, and would rather revise
canon slightly than rewrite the game rules.  2)  No opinion on Norris'
orientation, nor any great interest in it -- now, his clone, though...

Kenji Schwarz
46-XX chromosome semigearhead

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:22:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Man...I wonder how many of us are going to end up: "Well I got a degree in
> X and promptly got a job doing something completely different, and now 
> I'm on a different continent doing something even more different..." 

Well, I'm almost in that category.  I got a degree in Human Resource 
Management from CSU Hayward, promptly moved from CA to IL, then got a job 
at a holding company, where I've worked for the last 4.5 years.  There, 
I do HR stuff, but since it's a small office I also do general office 
management - everything from delivering mail, to getting temps in, to 
supervising some of the secretaries and the receptionist - plus I head 
up the purchasing department on a corporate-wide basis (which 
essentially seems to mean that I get to tell people who know way more 
than I do about purchasing what they can and cannot buy, and from whom 
they can buy it).  And in my free time, I try to keep the information 
flowing from IG to TMLers, and sometimes help Stu & Suz Dollar write 
stuff for Traveller. And if you think this post has poor punctuation, 
spelling, and grammar, you should see some of my stuff that Suz has had 
to edit.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:42:28 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

I've been using WW II warship tonnages, and taking 1 ton as being 1
Traveller disp. ton. This gaive BB's in the 40,000 - 70,000 ton range (I use
full load, as it doesn't change in defoinition between navies too much).

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:42:25 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Starship Displacement Tonnage

At 15:40 18/04/97 +1200, you wrote:
>
>Destroyers - medium (1000 - 10,000t) - quite fast but designed to harrass 
>enemy shipping, area denial, and operate solo (or in packs ) with out a 
>fleet also perform escort duties
>
>Frigates - Medium (100-10,000t) - like a detroyer by more suited to a fleet 
>based role - such as anti fighter, antomissile, Aegis type operations
>
If you're basing this on WW II or modern navies these two should probably be
the other way around. WW II Frigates were made for convoy escort, not fleet
duties.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:42:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 1889 drives

At 15:50 17/04/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Some persons have been talking about a SPACE:1889 game.  It is very
>fascinating and the ideas have been just great.  I have read a little about
>the game in Challenge magazines, but don't have it.  If one of the people on
>the list that knows about the game could help me out a bit, I'd appreciate it. 
>
>If you could tell me a few things about the game, like:
>
>-what propells space craft??  How do they startravel, as opposed to space
>travel??
>and
>-What is the scope of the game??  where does it take place? on just Mars and
>earth?
>
>anything else would be just great.
>
>thanks in advance,
>
>Jeff Brawley
>brawleyj@uwstout.edu
>
There is no star travel in 1889.
Space travel is by Ether Propellers, powered by steam generated by solar
power. This means that travel beyond the asteroid belt is nearly
immpossible, as the battery technology isn't up to it yet.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:39:58 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

Doug Berry wrote:

>At 07:33 AM 4/18/97 -0400, Rod wrote:
>
>>>-	4th July 1950: Major Chuck Yeager becomes the first American in
>>>space; his suborbital launch in a Mercury capsule perched on top of a
>>>MacArthur IV booster is a total success.
>
>>>-	31 December 1950: Major Yaeger becomes the second American in
>>>space, and the first in orbit.  His Mercury capsule, perched on top of a
>>>MacArthur V booster incorporating Roswell-derived technology, makes 10
>>>orbits before re-entry.  He is awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour.
>
>One point:  The Medal of Honor is awarded for Valor above and beyond the
>call of duty while in combat. (The word "Congressional" has never been part
>of the awards name, although Congress does vote on awarding the Medal.)
>

	Roger..


>Maj. Yaeger would probably have recieve a Distinguished Service Medal
>(highest non-combat award), along with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
>
>Also, were there *two* Maj. Yaegers?  I ask because of the phrasing above.
>


	Nope... Chuck was #1 and #2.  Apologies for the rough state of the
text.

>All in all, very interesting.. I hope to see more soon.

	Expect some early May.  Right now I'm in exams.


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:39:35 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Biography  (was Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

Dave Golden wrote:
[snip]
>
>I'll kick it off, just to break the ice. I've a degree in aerospace
>engineering, I've managed ballistic missile and ballistic missile defense
>research and analysis projects, and I'm currently working as an engineer
>supporting the operations of the Air Force's most advanced (and complex)
>communications satellite, Milstar.

	DEC (junior college) in Social Science, BA Anthropology at McGill,
am almost done (4 more exams, 2 papers) a dual BCL/LLB program at McGill
Law.  I've specialized mostly in corporate/commercial and Qu=E9bec civil law=
=2E


	High point on my resum=E9 is two years spent as head research
assistant on the Review of the Hong Kong Companies Ordinance (a
corporate-law reform project); I spent last summer and last Xmas over there
working on it. This September I start bar school and a new job at McMaster
Meighen, Canada's oldest law firm <smug, newly hired grin>.

	Other interests include astronomy, sailing, SF, fencing, and
lovebirds.  I watch very little TV, and am a diehard Mac fan.

	I've been living with the same significant other for the past 9
years, have two birds, three cats, and have just moved into our first house
and am looking forwards to summer Sunday afternoons throwing some steaks on
the BBQ after mowing the lawn.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Ringworld, the Movie

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:43:44 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> >HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - "Ringworld," the best-selling trilogy written and
> >created by sci-fi master Larry Niven, is being developed as a feature film
> >by Quincy Jones' production company.
> 
> Pleeaaassseeee let them do it right!

Sigh...what are the odds?  This'll be another wailing and gnashing session
for me, I fear. :(

> >"'Ringworld' has all the elements for an incredible action-packed feature
> >experience, great characters, a riveting story, and tremendous science
> >fiction action," said
> >Joel Simon, president of QDE Motion Pictures.
> 
> "Action-packed" in Hollywood usual translates to "lots of gunfire and
> explosions."

With people dodging the former and outrunning the latter. :)

> But there are some sequences in RW that I've always wanted to see filmed..
> the flight through the Eye Storm, the riot when Louis and Co first meet the
> Ring's inhabitants, Louis' first night with 'Prill  :)

Yeah, 'specially that last one... :)  Other bits that'd be cool: the pass
through the Rosette at 1% of c (or whatever it was), and grav building
falling through the hole in the top of Fist of God, dragging the ship
behind -- I defy them to film *that* and convey any sense of what's
happening... 

> >Plans are to establish a licensing and merchandising program for the
> >project and its characters.
> 
> Finagle, take me now!  What are we looking at?  Nessus (in)action toys at
> Taco Bell? (Push the button and he collapses into a quivering ball) Plush
> Speaker-to-Animals under the Christmas tree?  "Tasp" perfume?

ROTFL!  You forgot a Teela Brown-themed California Lottery game, though.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:57:16 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 

At 02:27 PM 4/18/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>All right....
>
>Ex-biochemist now doing systems and database administration. I've played
>RPG's for a heck of a long time...
>
>I know a LOT about stuff like cytochrome P450 and n-acetyl transferase
>mediated metabolism of aromatic amines and polycyclic aromatic
>hydrocarbons, and frankly cannot for the life of me see how that will EVER
>be relevant to a discussion on this list, but I'm sure, given the list,
>it'll come up someday... 

You just made it relevant. :)  And the sad part is, I understood most of
what you said there!  I have a degree in cognitive science (psych, comp
sci, neurology, and AI mixed with bits of anthropology, sociology, art,
chem, and such) and am working as a game designer.  I've been a programmer
and UI consultant for most of my career.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 22:07:33 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Who we are

I guess, I could best be discribed as a "professional student" that
graduated into an "absent-minded Professor." <g> My title is Associate
Professor of Computer Science, and I teach at Pensacola Junior College.
What this really means is I teach basic computer concepts, business
applications, and introductory programming classes to freshmen and
sophmores. In addition to the Computer Science, I also have advanced
degrees in Business and Educational Design, and a bachlors in
Interdisiplinary Social Science...that's the professional student part. ;->

I began playing wargames in the early days of Avalon Hill and SPI, and
began designing them shortly thereafter..never tried to publish anything,
just did it for myself and the players around me.  I've played the campaign
version of 1914 and "borrowed" a gymnasium to play out the entire Jutland
scenerio. If I'd kept at it, I guess I'd be what is known in the hobby as a
Grognard. (sp) However, I haven't wargamed now in years.

My friends and I started roleplaying (though we didn't call it that) years
before Dungeons & Dragons came out, but I remember the excitement when I
found that little white box in the back of the game store.  I was aware
that TSR was moving to AD&D, but I never bought into it.  Loving science
fiction, I jumped on Traveller like a "duck on a junebug" when it first
came out in 77, and I have most of the CT material, but I never got into
MegaTraveller. The main boxed set wasn't good enough to pull me away from
the home-brew I'd worked up over the years, and the politics of the
rebellion didn't interest my players. Frankly, I got a lot more use and
enjoyment out of FGU's Aftermath..that system was too hard to play, but it
had some great ideas.  I enjoyed the Tw2k, Space 1899 and Traveller 2300
things, but didn't do too much with them.  I stumbled across TNE and was
impressed enough to buy it, and then buy the Deluxe Set that included FFS.
Now there's T4, and I'm *still* busy working on a home-brew system. <g> 

My face-to-face gaming has petered out over years, but my play by email has
taken off.  Today, I'm involved in 9 PBEM games as player and GM, and I
spend way too much time on them.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:11:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

Quoth James Lindsay:
> Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

Sure.  :-)  I'm a U.S. Navy brat who grew up around the U.S. (Hawaii, San
Diego CA, Washington DC), now residing here in Houston TX.  In college I
spent three years as a Space Physics / Classics major (making me either a
classical physicist, or a physical... nah....).  I found, though, that I
preferred talking about, writing about, and explaining physics over doing
it, so in mid-junior year I leapt over to an English major.  That and
entirely too much theatre kept me in college for six years total.

Recently I've held an assortment of teaching jobs (from fourth to eighth
graders) and technical writing / computer consulting positions.  It's sort
of random, but it lets me do theatre in the evenings (I recently finished
a well-recieved collegiate production of Shakespeare's THE WINTER'S TALE,
finally directing in my tenth consecutive year with that festival).

As far as Traveller-relevant expertise goes....  I still know my physics
okay, though not so well as some on the list.  I'm happy to proofread your
Latin next time you want to print up some Rule of Man Commorative coins....
I stay fairly well-read on the history of the late Roman Republic and
other eras when I can get to them, and try to stay abreast of ongoing
scientific research in a variety of fields.  I own every GDW- and DGP-
produced product (aside from a couple boardgames and JTAS 2 & 4) for CT,
MT, and TNE, plus several from the licensees, and I have an English
major's memory for material and detail, so I enjoy playing canon-cop when
I'm not blithely breaking it myself.  :-)

I prefer historical/cultural/technological threads, and tend to stay out
of rules-discussions, though, since I play GURPS. I think that alone may
make me as much a heretic as Eris Reddoch....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:09:08 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

> 	No big question about Vargr...anybody who's owned a dog knows they'll
> mount just about anything that holds still (what do you do when a pit bull
> starts humping your leg? Fake an orgasm!).

Yeah, it's a good thing that mud doesn't move!

LOL!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:09:05 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

> See, I've been wondering too!    

You've actually been doing more than that--you've thought it out well 
enough that I'm convinced that I don't want to open that bag of worms 
anymore.

I'll just wait and see what you, James, and Bob come up with.

For now, I guess if I want exciting, blow by blow space combat, I'll 
just have to play Star Wars.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:09:06 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Those pesky Skill Levels

> ps. Ken and Richard, please consider this *good-natured* banter, not
> mean-spirited attacks! As you probably know, I'm over in a different part
> of the field when it comes to the task system...same basic field, mind you,
> just way, *way* out in left with my Aptitudes. ;-> -- 

Always, Eris.  Just for the record, you are one of the people that I 
really respect.

Even if you are a heritic.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:09:07 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

> 2.  And keep velocities about where they are now, then you've got to
> drastically decrease the basic 30,000km range scale...and all the
> effects that will have on weapons!

If I were going to do it (and I'm not any more), this is the only 
viable option that I can see--given the current rules.

> 4.  And have an exciting chance of hitting the other ship, then you
> will need to drasticly reduce the ranges of the weapons.  This force
> combatants to close to ranges where the chances of a hit grow high
> enough to be fun.

Although, it would be nice if IG came out with an official version of 
space combat so that we can do this.

I'd like a choice in starship combat.  Maybe one general system (but 
better than the crappy system in Book 1), a system for large scale 
combat with capitol ships and fleets, and a system on a short time 
scale, say 1 minute (or even 6 seconds), so that we could have a blow 
by blow combat system.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1224
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1225



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gun damage
Who are the TMLers?
Re: Missoury Archive Question
Re: Biography
Racism/Heterosexism/Speciesism in Traveller 
Re: a plea
Re: Gays, gimme a break
Re: the agy thread...
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: [Sorry] and a question.
Re: Milieu:1889
Jumpdrive (Long)
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: All Tech Levels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:09:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

> Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
> a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
> knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with
> hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->

Per,

I can call you Per, can't I?  :)

Here's how I've battled these problems.

First off, I've altered the critical hit rule (the one that says the 
first hit in Traveller is taken randomly against a character's 
stats).  

I only allow this when a spectacular success is rolled.  Otherwise, 
you're popping off character's right and left.  And, my players seem 
to like getting that killing blow in (and very often it is) when they 
roll SS on their to hit throws.

Second off, as far as hit location goes, I use the excellent chart 
developed by Glenn Grant.  You should try it.  He did a good job.

If you want it, contact Glenn or e-mail me, and I'll send it to you.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:33:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Who are the TMLers?

Jumping into the fun "who we are" thread...

My BS is in Applied Chemistry, from Harvey Mudd College (a tiny
engineering and science school in Claremont, California).  At least one
other person on the list went there, so they seem to be doing something
right, :)  Most of the way through my chem degree program, though, I
discovered that my real love was for programming, not chemistry -- but it
was far too late to hop majors.  So I stuck out the chem program, as part
of which I did my senior research project on wiring up all the lab
instruments to an old LSI-11 that they had gathering dust in a back room.
Suddenly, they could do data plots without sharpening a pencil. :)

After college, I hired on at General Dyanics -- this was 1985, the Cold
War was going full-force, and anybody with something vaguely like an
engineering degree could get a good job with a defense contractor.  At GD,
I did a bunch of cool things, like writing a process-control program for
the plant's HVAC system, and an expert system to diagnose problems in the
Phalanx close-in ship defense system.

Later, I moved to Rockwell, where I got heavily involved in various things
too secret to talk about, but involving acoustics and undersea warfare.
*That* was the most fun I've ever had while getting paid for it. :)

A few years back, I moved to my current job with a civilian softwar
company -- the bottom having fallen out of the killin-godless-Commies
market.  These days I write server components in a system that monitors
and automatically troubleshoots large distributed computer networks.  It's
intriguing work, but I do miss playing _Red October_ games...

All this time, my chem degree has gone entirely unused, save for
pronouncing cleaning-fluid ingredient names...and answering TML questions.
Guess there *is* a purpose to everything!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:03:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Missoury Archive Question

VolantZep@aol.com said:
> In a message dated 97-04-17 11:42:33 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I'm looking for sector data, so i went on Missoury Archives and I found in
>  the GENERAL directory 3 subdirectories :
>   >>
> What is the address of these archives?

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archives/

It's named the missouri archives because back in 1992 it was an FTP site
that I maintained from my workstation. I since had to give that up as it
became more and more popular and ended up transfering all the data into
the Web and created some web pages for Traveller. 

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:14:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Biography

Got my degree in Chemical Engineering. Career hasn't gone the way I would
have liked. Now I'm the Web Master for Oxford Health Plans. It pays the
bills.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:12:55 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Racism/Heterosexism/Speciesism in Traveller 

The thread has been dying down, probably with good reason, but I can't
resist chucking in my "thoughts" -- I'll try to keep it Traveller-relevant,
though.

With regard to sexual/racial/etc. tolerance in the Imperial
Navy/Army/Marines/Scouts, it seems to me that one question to be answered
first off is whether these organizations use segregated units to avoid the
problems inherent in recruiting from c. 11,000 (?) systems and keeping
everyone working together efficiently and so forth.  From what I remember
reading, the Imperial Army sounded like it did incorporate wholesale
brigades drawn from member worlds -- so presumably within a given unit, the
members would all be from a reasonably similiar cultural background.  With
the Navy, Marines, and Scouts, I sort of imagined a much more mixed and
heterogeneous composition of crews and work-units.  In this case, perhaps
one of the criteria in screening prospective recruits would be how well
they can adapt to the standards of the general "Imperial interstellar
culture" (e.g., no psionics, aristocratic rule, racial equality, religious
tolerance, sexual/gender equality (?), etc.)

(In general, I have always assumed a big difference between "Imperial
civilization," a sort of cultural cement holding together the interstellar
military, political, and economic fabric, and the thousands of local
cultures of the member worlds and regions making up the Imperium.)

Someone (forget who, sorry) pointed out that Archduke Norris' decision not
to marry had significant political implications, given a tradition of
marriages as political alliances.  *If* one takes the point of view that
he's gay, this might suggest that the Imperium at least doesn't recognize
homosexual marriage -- otherwise, why couldn't he have married some
important *male* fellow-aristocrat?  Thin evidence, yeah, but so it goes
for all the rest of the Norris thread, too.

David Golden and "Shade" mentioned sexual orientation and so forth among
non-human sophonts... now there's a topic!  It does make a lot of sense to
me that the Aslan would be very down on male homosexuality as an
*orientation*, given how any given instance of it could screw up the social
fabric for so many individuals -- whether this says anything about their
attitude towards *behaviour*, or to female homosexuality, is anyone's
guess.  One could easily set up the female corporations, particularly the
non-clan aligned ones, as some sort of Aslan lesbian separatist subculture.
Given the way that Aslan assign gender to humans in terms only of their
own "male" vs "female" social roles, without reference to a human's
biological sex, they probably see humans as totally sexually
indiscriminate.

With the Vargr, it's occurred to me that if they act much like their canine
forebears, and given what we're told about their 'pack mentality', they
might display a lot of dominance/submission behaviour that could look
sexual in nature to human observers, but which might not be regarded as
such by the Vargr themselves.

How about the other major species?  Droyne reproduction I see as
dispassionate, instictive, and insectile; probably the Hiver don't "get"
the idea of sex at all (but are probably horrifically curious about it).


>"Shade" wrote:
>>>Take a look at books about homosexuality in history (there are many) or
>>>works like Bujold's _Ethan of Athos_ which describes an all male, all
>>>gay,planet which reproduces through artificial wombs.
>>
>>An interesting point.  I've had a lesbian couple in my game which had
>>children in the same fashion.
>
>With an artificial womb???  Excessively peculiar... <G>

John Snead wrote, w.r.t. genetic basis of homosexuality:

>Bad statistics (and I've seen a whole lot of these by social scientists
>who should know better) and a belief that *everything* *must* be genetic
>have produced a whole lot of dubious findings about human behavior in the
>past few decades.  Genetics is vastly over-rated wrt human behavior.

Er, just to stand up for the social scientists -- all the studies I've seen
on genetic conditioning of homosexuality have been by medical scientists,
not social scientists of any persuasion.  So to speak.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:42:27 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: a plea

I would suggest using a search engine and type in "Traveller Mailing List"

That's how I unsubscribed while on vacation

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:40:17 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break

Chris Griffen wrote:
> 
> sturm wrote:
> 
> >I subscribe to this mailing list so I can read stuff about TRAVELLER,
> >stuff like Powered Battle Armor, fusion rifles, Imperial politics,
> >reviews of Traveller items, Traveller news, grav tanks and such.  I
> >don't really care  much one way or the other about Gays in the Imperium,
> >and I'd wager most Traveller players don't care much either.
> >
> >I am not posting this to be argumentative nor do I wish to offend
> >anyone, but I subscribe to this mailing list because I want to hear
> >about a little sci-fi role-playing game named Traveller, stop wasting
> >peoples time.

> Uh-oh, the class far right winger has spoken.
Spoken like a true lefty "so open minded their brain falls out."

> So if you don't like it, just gloss over them and move on instead of trying
> to rain on others' parade.
What, people who don't like a thread are to shut up?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:37:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: the agy thread...

	Howdy!

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> "What about the Aslan? Wouldn't they be the biggest homophobes around?"
> 
> STOP. Stop right there! The Aslan are ALIENS, not people in fuzz suits,
> not talking lions, not Klingon stand-ins in the Traveller Universe, but
> ALIENS!!!

	Yes, but Aliens with social and cultural structures that are not
too removed from our own (based on what has been published over the last
20 years).  Alien, you bet.  Incomprehensible, no way.

 > 
> Why...these are _Humans_ they're dealing with after all! Why would an
> Aslan CARE about what some of these furless tree apes with no concept of
> honor did in their bedrooms to each other. Besides, who could tell? It's
> not like they're easy to tell apart!!

	If a race subscribes to some darwinistic/sociobiological
worldview, homosexuality could be viewed as disfunctional.  Such
individuals may be looked on differently by Aliens, and depending on the
severity of the view, this could seriously colour their perceptions.  It
is bad enough to be a furless ape, but to be a *deviant* furless ape....


> What their sexual roles are are probably waaaay beyond our comprehension,
> as ours are to them.

	They are different, but not wholly "alien" (beyond comprehension).
It may make no difference to the Aslan (I only remember bits over the
years), but it *could* depending on their worldview (something the aliens
would fall into).


	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:30:31 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

At 05:29 pm 04/18/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Time consuming to set up, but once you have everything together
>(Dave Golden has some great ship forms on his site (er, or did
>anyway)) to play.  I have some fixes/additions to the system to add

	Hrunh? They should still be there; I loaded those to the new site fairly
early. At least, they're in my local copy of the site... did somebody swipe
them?

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:50:25 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

At 02:42 pm 04/19/97 +1200, you wrote:
>I've been using WW II warship tonnages, and taking 1 ton as being 1
>Traveller disp. ton. This gaive BB's in the 40,000 - 70,000 ton range (I use
>full load, as it doesn't change in defoinition between navies too much).

	Problem is, the two are significantly different. In fact, there are even
different definitions of wet-displacement tons.	But usually they
approximate to the volume of one ton (metric, short, long, Imperial, you
take your pick) of water, while a Traveller disp ton is one ton of liquid
hydrogen. There's a factor of 14 there--1 (metric) ton of water is 1 m^3,
while 1 (metric) ton of LH2 is 14 m^3.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:38:00 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

At 08:43 pm 04/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>A question comes to mind. Are we assuming that there is some sort of database
>that tracks all the orbits of all known solarsystems on every ship?  That
>would be necessary for the calculations you are refering to prior to jump.
> If there is no such database merely rough data on each system on orbit
>distances, then you would have to plot planetary positions after Jump and all

	There's no need for a really detailed database. First-order orbital
calculations require only six numbers to completely describe an orbit. That
ain't very much. Furthermore, I don't need to store all known solar systems
on my trusty smuggl// detached scout. Just the ones nearby. And I can
always get updates at each starport along the way.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:35:32 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [Sorry] and a question.

At 08:43 pm 04/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I once had it explained to me this way:
>Picture a piece of paper that represents part of space.  Label one point as
>the departure point and another point on the the far side as point of
>destination. To get from one point to another the Jump drive can somehow fold
>space.  Picture folding the paper and putting the point of departure and
>point of destination together.  Viola'. You Jump from one point to the other
>without crossing the realspace in between.  The week time frame is much
>handwaving.  (as is the whole theory for that matter)

	Another explanation I heard: Picture realspace as the surface of the
earth. Takes a while to travel along the surface. Now drill a tunnel
straight from point A to point B, and drop in. Quicker.

	And, this is the real kicker, apparently somebody fiddling around with
chord tunnels found out that, in Real Life (modelled theoretically), if you
travel through such a tunnel by falling under gravity, it takes the same
length of time no matter HOW far apart the endpoints are. If it's a
straightline tunnel between any two surface points, in a vacuum, you get
from one end to the other in the same time whether A and B are 1,000 miles
or 4,000 miles apart.

	Sounds like "Jump always takes 1 week," doesn't it.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:24:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:03:01 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> 
> On 04/18/97 at 06:29 PM,  Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au> said:
> 
> > Given the uproar with the Science debate (which I am partly resposable
> > :-(  ), I was thinking of designing steam or desil powered spaceships
> > (with wooden hulls).
> 
> Sounds like Space 1799, or maybe Space 1849! ;->  

1799 they'd be (solar) wind powered. :)

> > Premise 1 to justify this : Metal poor world, what metals have to be
> > allocated to power generation and ship frames.
> 
> Doesn't *have* to be metal poor world.  You could go the "1889" route of
> postulating something like needing a "liftwood" hull to give your craft the
> ability to lift above the atmosphere.  Or just run the base Tech level at 3
> or 4, and make *certain* technologies *much* easier to discover. ;->

Many many years ago (early 80s, perhaps?), somebody wrote two or three
stories for Analog in a universe like this.  We made first contact with
extraterrestrial intelligence when a wooden spacecraft came sliding down
over Los Angeles, landed in the quad at UCLA, and disgorged a few dozen
short furry humanoid warriors armed with pole-axes and arquebusses,
intent on conquering the world.  The LAPD Riot Squad successfully
contained this alien invasion within an hour or so.

It turned out that the (linked) secrets of gravitic propulsion and FTL
travel were so mind-bogglingly simple, so utterly *obvious*, that nearly
every intelligent species stumbled across them somewhere around the late
bronze age.  Only humanity and one other species had been so cursed by
Murphy that they managed to miss out.

Anyone remember titles or author for these, and whether they've been
collected somewhere?  I've always just loved the idea...and it would make
for a truly strange game!

> > Premise 2: Wooden hulls over a mettal frame, with a rubber coating to
> > keep air in. (It has the armour value of a wet sponge, but there is a
> > tree in Australia called "Ironbark" which is very tough [axes bounce off
> > it]. if this culture has acccess to this type of wood, it would have good
> > strength [but still no real armour])
> 
> Remember, the old wooden ships often had metal plate on their
> bottoms, and along their waterlines.  You might have metal armor bolted on
> selected parts of your ships.

The vacuum and high temperature variations of space would tend to cook
volatiles out of the wood at a really horrifying pace, leaving it warped,
brittle, and quite possibly not air-tight. You'd want to re-tar the hull
every time you made port, keep *lots* of emergency sealant aboard, and
discard hulls after about 3 years (tops) of use in space. 

> > Premise 3 : Vacuume tube computers! (or babbage engines, I tend to go to
> > vacuume tubes, because they have more computing power than an old Model
> > 1bis :-)
> 
> I use vacuum tube technology in my games too.  (You can have quantum effect
> transisters OR anti-gravity..and the space drives that come with it, but
> not both.  ;-> Space faring cultures opt for
> anti-gravity.)

What's the handwaving behind having only one of the two?  Or is it just
fiat?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 00:40:45 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Jumpdrive (Long)

Seeing as everyone is presenting their versions of how jumpdrives work, I
thought I'd throw my 2 credits into the pot.

Jumpdrive components

    1.  Jump Field Projector Coil - Mounted on the bow of a ship, the
        coil projects a field that surrounds the ship from bow to
        stern.
            
    2.  Field Collector Ring - Mounting around the stern of a ship,
        the ring pinches closed the field projected by the bow coil.

    3.  Gravitational Sensors - Mounting at the bow of the ship, the
        sensors detect distant gravitation sources through the
        projected gravity lens.  The quality of the ship's sensors
        is the primary limit of a ship's "jump range."
        
    4.  Gravitational Pulse Generator - Mounted at the center of the
        coil, the pulse generator fires a pulse of anti-gravitons
        through the gravity lens linking the ship with a distant
        gravity source.  This forms a "forward probability wave"
        that the ship will ride on.
        
    5.  Lanthium Jump Grid - Embedded in the hull of the ship, the
        lanthium grid maintains a bubble of coherent space around
        and within the ship protecting it from dissipation during the
        jump period.
        
    6.  Jump Fuel - This is a quantity of matter injected through
        the jump coil after the jump field has formed.  This
        injection matter must be of sufficient mass (~10% of the
        ship's volume in H2) to form a gravitational lens at the bow
        of the ship with a diameter larger than the ship's width and
        height. 
        
Jumpdrive Process

    1.  The Lanthium grid is energized.  The grid must remain under
        power until the ship returns to normal space in roughly one
        week.  The grid requires approximately 30 seconds to come up
        to full strength, and is characterized by a glowing pattern
        projected on the surface of the hull armor.

    2.  Energy is fed to the bow coil from the main power plant
        causing the jump field to form around the ship.  The field
        requires < 10e-12 seconds to form, and must be closed at the
        ship's stern by the ring collector or it will immediately
        collapse.  From inside and outside the field, the ship seems
        be within a shimmering translucent eggshell.
        
    3.  The ship's location within the field, outside the lanthium
        grid, becomes indeterminate with equal probability at all
        points.  If the grid fails the ship will be reduced to a sea
        of quarks in an energy sea filling the space within the
        jumpfield.
        
  If no other action is taken, the jump field will collapse within
  10e-6 seconds, and the ship will emerge at it's former location.
        
    5.  Jump fuel is rapidly pumped through the coil into the jump
        field retarding the collapse of the jump field, and
        providing the energy required for jump.  To enable a ship to
        successfully "jump" the quantity of mass must equal no less
        than 8% of the ship's volume in H2, and depending on its
        elemental makeup could require as much as 15%.  This appears
        as shifting colors and patterns from within the ship with
        the colors and patterns coming from the elemental makeup of
        the injected mass.  From the outside, the ship appears to be
        a multi-colored shimmering bubble.  The geometry of the coil
        causes the matter to collect more densely at the bow forming
        a gravitational lens in front of the ship.  After 30 seconds
        of injection this lens becomes clear to gravitational
        sensors.  The lens will remain intact for the duration of
        the matter injection, and that can be extended for up to 2
        minutes, then it will lose coherence and dissolve as the
        injection matter begins to be destroyed by the jump field.
        At this point, if not before, the ship loses all
        communication with the outside and seemingly winks out of
        existence.  It will take approximately one week for this
        quantity of mass to be dissipated, and allow the ship to
        wink back into existence.

    6.  During the time the gravitational lens is coherent the
        passive gravitational sensors can pick up *stellar* sized
        gravity targets at multi-parsec ranges through the lens.
        The gravity sources are projected into the astrogation tank
        where the astrogator quickly matches them against charted
        positions, locates the appropriate target and locks the
        pulse generator on that target.  The quality (Tech Level) of
        the sensors determines the range at which gravity sources
        can be imaged, an hence locked onto.
        
    7.  The Astrogator uses the Pulse Generator to fire a stream of
        anti-gravitons at the selected target, being careful to
        ensure the gravitational lens has grown broad enough to
        allow the ship to pass though.  Firing the anti-gravitons
        the jump field is instantaneously linked from the ship to
        the target and the entire field's location immediately
        becomes indeterminate as it seems to be sucked through the
        lens.  At this point, the ship and the field surrounding it
        don't appear to exist anywhere in this universe, one theory
        is that the ship exists in a separate dimension called jump
        space, but that is only a theory, in truth we simply don't
        know where the ship is.  From the outside, the shimmering
        eggshell simply winks out of existence.  From the inside,
        the gravitational lens collapses back around the ship and
        the walls of the jump field turn into a mindbending and
        indescribable hell in the wink of an eye.  If viewports
        haven't already been closed and dogged, they will be now!
        
    8.  After approximately one week the injected matter has
        dissipated to the point where it can no longer maintain the
        walls of the jump field and the ship winks back into
        existence in normal space.  If the grav pulse hit its target
        the ship will have ridden a "forward probability wave" and
        emerge at the "hyperlimit" of that gravity source, this is
        approximately 150 diameters from the center of a gravity
        source.  If the grav pulse was fired wildly or missed it's
        target the ship will still "ride the wave", but will emerge
        *elsewhere*, misjumps of this nature could put a ship anywhere
        within 36 parsecs of the originating system.  If the grav
        pulse was not fired, there will be no "forward probability
        wave" to ride and the ship will emerge at the exact location
        from which it jumped.
        
Jump Limitations

  Coils may be energized creating jump fields anywhere, but there
  are a number of limitations.

    1.  Within an atmosphere a jump field will attempt to surround
        the entire volume of the atmosphere, causing it to collapse
        immediately with no effect other than the loss of the energy
        pumped into the coil as heat.  This has a decidedly bad
        effect on the jump coil.
        
    2.  Jump fields may be formed within 100 diameters of a planet
        or stellar gravity source, but the view through the lens
        will be obscured by the nearby gravity source and the
        Astrogator will be unable to locate a target for the grav
        pulse.  Firing the pulse will result in an unpredictable
        result, the ship may emerge in a week at the local stellar
        "hyperlimit", but it also may emerge *elsewhere*.
        
    3.  Between 100 and 150 diameters of a planet or stellar gravity
        source there will be improving views through the lens
        reaching maximum clarity at about 150 diameters.  Beyond 150
        there is no improvement.  
        
  Lesser quantities and unrefined Jump Fuel can be injected through
  the coils, but there are problems with this.
  
    1.  Smaller quantities of jump fuel will cause the lens to be
        too narrow, and if the ship can't fit through the lens it
        will leave the parts that don't fit behind where they are
        destroyed.  If the part left behind includes the lanthium
        grid, the entire ship dissolves into a sea of quarks.
        
    2.  Engineers tune the coil to maximize the formation of the
        lens by analyzing the elemental properties of the jump fuel
        before it is injected.  Pure mono-hydrogen is the easiest to
        deal with and is preferred.  Less pure fuel can be used
        successfully, if the Engineer can accurately record it's
        component elements and produce a well-controlled injection
        plan.  This becomes increasingly hard as fuel becomes less
        pure.  Unrefined jump fuel, ie containing a mix of elements,
        is dangerous, and un-controlled injection of unrefined fuel
        is deadly.
        

Whew!  That was a long post.  If you made it this far you must be
interested.  ;-> I know this isn't *everybodies* jump drive, but it is the
one I plan to use.  If you have questions, or see obvious holes please let
me know.
        
Eris        
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 00:54:28 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

On 04/18/97 at 10:11 PM,  Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> said:

> I prefer historical/cultural/technological threads, and tend to stay out
> of rules-discussions, though, since I play GURPS. I think that alone may
> make me as much a heretic as Eris Reddoch....

Hee! Hee!  See if you still can say that after reading my missive on
Jumpdrives. 

Eris,
    the *true* heretic! <wink>

ps. I have only played/GMed GURPS twice, but I mine it (and it's multitude
of books) for rules, skills, ideas, inspirations, and just for a enjoyable
read. Say, I'll bet *all* of us read rulebooks for fun!  Now why can't
*any* of us RTFM when it comes to 'puters? ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:24:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:11:36 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> 
> > I never disagreed here.  It was just that you backed up your claim by
> > referring to two adjoining countries whose dominant difference is
> > based more on *national wealth* than *technology*.
> 
> What kind of computer does Mexico produce? 

Dell and Gateway-2000, that I know of.  I'm sure there are many others.

>  What kind of high tech jet military fighter aircraft does Mexico 
> produce? 

Having not been a party to the Cold War, and having a friendly superpower
next door, Mexico had little incentive to pursue high-tech weaponry.

>  What kind of space program does Mexico have?   

None, other than leased bandwidth on others' birds.  Of course, there are
plenty of high-tech countries that haven't much of a space program, either
- -- Australia, Taiwan, South Africa...  Space travel is just an optional
piece of the big technology picture. 

> What technological advances has Mexico made recently?

That I know of:

- - Advancements in offshore oil drilling technology allowing cheaper and
less environmentally threatening access to petroleum under the Gulf of
Mexico.

- - Development of highly efficient and redundant power generation and
distribution infrastructure, using new ideas in power-net management.

- - Improvements in manufacturing process technology at maquiladora plants
in the northern part of the country.

> Get the picture?

Yes, I'm forming a very clear picture...that you have an odd idea of
Mexico. ;)

  Regards,
    Craig, the old-wave pre-rebellion-era-prefering bi Libertarian
      chemist-gearhead who's into history, sociology, and blowing
      things up *real* good. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1225
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1226



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: Gun damage
My life-story (so far)
Re: "Pacific" class MER boat
Re: Sorry
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: Jumpdrive
Re: Gun damage
Re: Biography
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Gays in the Imperium (was lots of things)
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Vilani names
Newbie hello.
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Missile launchers
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
Re: Racism, Sexism and the Third Imperium
Re: Norris' sexual orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:43:07 -0400 (EDT)
> From: VolantZep@aol.com
> 
> A question comes to mind. Are we assuming that there is some sort of database
> that tracks all the orbits of all known solarsystems on every ship?  That
> would be necessary for the calculations you are refering to prior to jump.

I think it's well-nigh certain that such a "universal ephemeris" program
would be available on every starship in the Imperium.  You just need to
store six numbers for every body, plus some reference info about what
system it's in and so forth, to get a workable model that'll be good for
years to decades into the future.  I'll bet the database for a sector-wide
UE, good down to individual planetary satellites and large asteroids (say,
about a million individual objects), plus the program itself (relatively
tiny), would be well under a gigabyte...small enough, in other words, to
fit onto a current desktop machine with room to spare. 

Speaking of positional uncertainty in jumps, I've always thought that
there should be some, but not enough to cause huge problems.  The first
instinct is to borrow +-10% from the interval, but missing by 0.2
parsecs on a 2-parsec trip puts you a bit far from your landing point. :)
My next though was to relate it into the trip time, and lightspeed.

A jump takes 7ish days.  7 days at c is around 1200 AU.  Assume jump
uncertainty spreads at c from around your target point, using the same
+-10%, and you get a 120 AU range -- still too big.  But I can't help
feeling that c and the time uncertainty *do* play into this.  Anybody want
to pick this up?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:43:55 -0400
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

>This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out 
>there we could tap into. 

I wonder sometimes if I'm bringing too much of  my work home. My background
is space surveillance -- using groundbased visible and infrared sensors,
and even lasers to "detect, track, and  identify" (to quote the mission
statement) objects in space, first in the Air Force (Capt. USAFR ret.) and
now as a contractor (it pays better). My speciality is signature analysis,
recognizing and monitoring the status of satellites too far away to image
from the variations in their total brightness. I've acquired some expertise
in orbital mechanics, sensors, and computer programing. Along the way, I
picked up a couple of master's degrees and a PhD in astronomy. My primary
astronomy interest is asteroids and recently have been working on Earth
approaching asteroids (the old TML "dropping rocks" problem). 

I have a suggestion. Rather than the short descriptions we have been
providing, why don't we prepare short Traveller-style bios (ala Capt.
Alexander Jamison). The IG tests for determing UPPs were published here a
few months ago. We could all become NPCs in each other's games. Who knows,
someone might be interested in collecting the bios into a NPC booklet. I
think we're at least as interesting as some I've seen.  Look for my bio at
my "Misjump" web site in a few weeks.

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:55:18 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Gun damage

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:55:58 -0600 (MDT), you wrote:

> > hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> > Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->
> 
> Wow, through and through with the arm traumatically amputated.  He
> goes quickly into shock, and bleeds to death without fast medical
> attention.  Tying off his arm will at least keep him from bleeding
> to death, but that is a nasty wound.

Just out of curiousity, what type of ballistic weapon would be
required to "blow your right limb off"?  How much kinetic energy are
we talking about?  I really need to know the answer to this one :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: My life-story (so far)

     I just got through reading today's TML backlog, including a whole
bunch of people describing their life stories (or at least their
professional stories) and it just looked like too much fun to be left out
of.

     I'm currently 22 years old, and am a English major at Pomona College
(a tiny but well-respected Liberal Arts school located about 6 blocks from
Harvey Mudd College in Claremont, California), but as of May 18th I will
be a graduate in search of work, which I hope to find in the LA area,
possibly in some way connected to the film industry.
    I was born and raised in Evansville, Indiana, a small city that has a
disproportionately large gaming population (among others, Jean Rabe
(editor of JTAS) is from Evansville, Kevin Knight (editor of Traveller
Chronicle) is from Henderson, KY-- right across the Ohio River, Guy
McLimore(sp?) and Greg Pohelin (authors of the FASA Star Trek and Dr Who
rpgs) are locals, and I could probably go on further).  I began gaming
(with Basic D&D, of course) when I was in 3rd grade with a friend who's
brother played, and over the next couple of years I gradually acquired the
same gaming circle that, with a few changes around the edges, has remained
intact ever since.
    I first got interested in Traveller when MT was released, on the
recommendation of some of the older members of the gaming club I was a
member of at the time, and although it took me literally years to get the
hang of the rules, I loved the background and sci-fi feel, and it wasn't
long before I was hounding cons and used book-stores trying to buy up as
much CT stuff as possible (note: 10 years later, still looking for JTAS 1,
3-5, Mayday, Adv 8, Alien Module 5, Alien Realms, Atlas..., and a lot of
licensee stuff-- otherwise I've got it all!)  I didn't like the rules or
the background of TNE, but I had loyalty to the trademark and Dave, Frank,
and Loren always seemed so enthusiastic about it at GenCon, that I bought
most of the books anyway, though I almost never played.
    For the past few years, especially now that we only get together on
shared breaks from school (none of my gaming-group friends go to school
with me) we've been pretty much exclusively playing "RuneQuest" (which I'm
sure makes me an oddity-- my two favorite games had passed their peak
of popularity before I had ever even heard of rpgs), but we have had a
couple of pretty successful one-off attempts at T4 and I have hopes to do
a little more of the same this summer.   After that, I'm not sure what
will happen, but I have hopes that I can find some folks willing to play
Traveller when I finally get myself settled.

Thanks for listening,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 01:59:12 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: "Pacific" class MER boat

On 1997-04-18 00:52 thus spake Mark Clark:

>  One question about the low berth module - is that G-compensated?  Even
>if the person is in a suspended state, I'd think they still need the
>protection.  I couldn't tell if that was included in your design.

No, it isn't. I figured that once the patients were in the low berth, 
there'd be no reason to speed anymore...

Now that you mention it, though, there should be *some* compensation. I 
guess I should add a standard 3G compensator for the module.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 01:59:16 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Sorry

On 1997-04-17 22:27 thus spake Brody Dunn:

>I unreservedly apologise to anyone inconvenienced by my 5 recent posts - I 
>can only claim that my previous few posts functioned perfectly and I had 
>assumed that these would also.
>
>However, I undertake to never send a post to the list without test posting 
>it to myself first to ensure that it is correctly not formatted.
>
>Once again I can only say sorry - It WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN!!

Don't sweat it.

I've become considerably more tolerant since I wrote a little applescript 
that squashed the winmail files automatically for me.

Interested Mac users can email me and I'll send a copy.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 03:01:10 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

On 04/18/97 at 10:24 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

> > > :-(  ), I was thinking of designing steam or desil powered spaceships
> > > (with wooden hulls).
 
> > Sounds like Space 1799, or maybe Space 1849! ;->  

> 1799 they'd be (solar) wind powered. :)

And don't you think, I'd just love to do that too! ;->  I just can't quite
bring myself to handwave it. 


> Many many years ago (early 80s, perhaps?), somebody wrote two or three
> stories for Analog in a universe like this.  We made first contact with
> extraterrestrial intelligence when a wooden spacecraft came sliding down
> over Los Angeles, landed in the quad at UCLA, and disgorged a few dozen
> short furry humanoid warriors armed with pole-axes and arquebusses,
> intent on conquering the world.  The LAPD Riot Squad successfully
> contained this alien invasion within an hour or so.

> It turned out that the (linked) secrets of gravitic propulsion and FTL
> travel were so mind-bogglingly simple, so utterly *obvious*, that nearly
> every intelligent species stumbled across them somewhere around the late
> bronze age.  Only humanity and one other species had been so cursed by
> Murphy that they managed to miss out.

> Anyone remember titles or author for these, and whether they've been
> collected somewhere?  I've always just loved the idea...and it would make
> for a truly strange game!

Oooo! Oooo! I do! Harry Turtledove...but before he was Harry Turtledove,
don't ask me what his alias was though.

About 6 months ago I went through my Analog collection searching for the
these darn stories...I found *one*, "The Road Less Travelled", but I think
there were a couple more set in the same universe.

An interesting idea from the story was that discovering a technology set
that gave a culture cheap, easy anti-grav and FTL stunted their development
at TL1, 2, and 3, so they never developed the technologies and basic theory
that lead to all the advances we humans developed by the late 20th century
when we were invaded by guys with muskets and wooden ships.  "The Road Less
Travelled" takes place several hundred years later after humans cut a
swatch through the galactic arm, break up into small pocket empires and go
into a dark age.  A small government with some of the "old" technology
sends a scout out to investigate missing ships where he discovers the
Vargr..well, canine-ish beings that are about as advanced as humans were
when we captured the FTL technology, and *much* more aggressive and
organized than the assorted human empires.  He escapes from them and
accidentally succeeds in destroying the squadron they send in pursuit. His
bosses are happy that these new players will think we humans are tough
enough to take out a squadron with a single ship, but worried that we won't
be prepared for these guys when they finally do come. So, while our scout
tries to sneak off the base they are preparing to order him to go back
and....<g>  Hey! I remember it pretty good!

> > > Premise 3 : Vacuume tube computers! (or babbage engines, I tend to go to
> > > vacuume tubes, because they have more computing power than an old Model
> > > 1bis :-)
 
> > I use vacuum tube technology in my games too.  (You can have quantum effect
> > transisters OR anti-gravity..and the space drives that come with it, but
> > not both.  ;-> Space faring cultures opt for
> > anti-gravity.)

> What's the handwaving behind having only one of the two?  Or is it just
> fiat?

Quantum tunneling. <g> Transister and MOS technology depend on quantum
tunneling for much of their effectiveness.  I postulate that gravity
control works at the quantum level by altering the vacuum fluctuations and
thereby altering gravitational and inertial forces.  This kind of tinkering
with the ZPF produces the side-effect of raising the resistance to quantum
tunneling in nearby microelectronic devices. This increases heating and
lowers the MTBF for these devices.  So, in practice MOS and CMOS devices
work, but burn out within a few days of going online.  Discrete transisters
last for a few weeks. Vacuum tubes turn out to be more reliable and
cheaper.  The over all effect is larger, slower, more expensive
electronics.  It doesn't mean no computers or display terminals. It does
mean no cyberwear. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:29:47 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

>It *would* be interesting to work out the mechanics of a system where
>delta-v cost depended on present speed wrt the nearest massive object,
>though.  Maybe I'll take a stab at it sometime soon...

Do it. It'll solve the near c rock problem as well.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:22:11 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Jumpdrive

VolantZep@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-04-12 11:47:17 EDT, you write:
> 
> << The solar power shouldn't be too much problem either,
>  it just takes too long time to charge. What group of players would want
>  a ship which would have to wait perhaps several days to charge up the
>  jumpdrive.
> 
>   / Per >>
> Was cleaning out my filing cabinet and came across this....
> This might make an excellent backup Jump system for emergencies.  It takes
> several weeks to recharge but will save their hides.  Kinda like that crappy
> tiny spare tire that you get now when you buy a new car instead of a real
> tire.  Its designed for one-time use long enough to get to a service station
> for repairs.

What I've been thinking of is, how much power does it really take? I
haven't found anything in the books about it, so I suppose it's GM's
choice, but I don't like making a basic part of the shipconstruction a
GM choice...

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:36:51 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
> > a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
> > knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with
> 
> That never bothered me, I hate systems that aren't deadly enough :-)
> 
> > hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> > Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->
> 
> Wow, through and through with the arm traumatically amputated.  He
> goes quickly into shock, and bleeds to death without fast medical
> attention.  Tying off his arm will at least keep him from bleeding
> to death, but that is a nasty wound.

Sure is, the thing is that T4 doesn't support hitlocations which is the
most important thing I want, so that damage that ripped the arm of would
be evenly distributed all over the body. Or if we take another example:
A right handed PC gets shot (not very badly) in the right arm. This
would probably mean that the PC could not fire his weapon due to the
pain, but using the standard system you can work just perfectly (if the
damage is placed correctly) until you drop down unconcious.

> The trick is that the combat system should kill people easily, but
> not easily within the confines of combat rounds which are very short
> intervals.  Deadly systems tend to get the end results the same as
> they would be with no medical care, but exaggerate things in typical
> 5 second intervals (IMHO).

They sure do.

> I imagine it takes several minutes for most gunshot casualties to
> die even if mortally wounded, though they might be unable to fight
> fairly quickly.
>
> Another thing to look at is the scumbag factor---rate NPCs and PCs
> by how nice they are, nice guys die fast, the scumbags tend to be
> indestructable :-)  Damara maintains that niceness is a "poor
> prognostic indicator" from her hectic intern experience. Hmmm, maybe
> she'll get home soon *sigh*  :-)

Hmm... Perhaps I should insert the Feng Shui damage rules... That would
give some interesting results...

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:23:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Biography

Hmm...

35, MA and then ABD (all but dissertation) in Anthropology (urban anthro 
with a focus on East and Southeast Asia.  Before that MA in Technology 
and Human affairs (focus on technology and internation development) BA in 
math, and history with minors in physics and classics (I was in college 
until I was 31).

Since then, temp work, fixing mechanical clocks and most recently (and
most successfully) writing RPG supplements (Ars Magica, and Nephilim, with
hopefully some Traveller books soon). 

Other than that, I've gamed since 1980 and played Traveller on and off 
since 1983, and I'm a Wiccan high priest (3rd degree).   


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:57:25 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

- -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
How you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german" 
names will always remain a riddle to me.
 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:17:27 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Gays in the Imperium (was lots of things)

Some thoughts about this in no apparent order

Evidence that Norris is/was gay:
      He didn't marry
      He had a very close relationship (indeterminant nature) with another man
By any standards very slim, but I'll work with the proposition; though it could
just as easily indicate a slighlty misogynistic confirmed batchelor or a
myriad of
other possibilities.

Now in an interview, Norris questioned on why he hadn't married gave a rather
non commital response. If one assumes that Norris was gay, this would
indicate that
open homosexuality isn't acceptable in the Imperium in 1100. However since
Emperor Strephon suggested that he clone himself to produce an heir, indicating
that the Emperor was aware that he was gay (assuming of course that he was) and
that he accepted this as not being a problem. So from this **very** slim
evidence
I would propose that homosexuality in the 3rd Imperium was recognised and
accepted in private, just so long as the people in question remained
discrete about it.
Sort of like the US militaries currrent "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Well
it gives some
good roleplaying possibilities anyway; the Imperium's run by middle of the road
liberals, could explain why it fell apart so quickly :*>

      <Andrew mounts his soapbox>
And to those people (gay, straight, bi or otherwise) who regard this issue
as being
something deadly serious. Please lighten up, it's just a game, half the fun
is in creating
and working with different socialogical situations. When you get beaten up
for walking
hand in hand with your boy/girlfriend in the real world, that's serious. You
know
you really don't need heros to feel secure; nor do you need to make the private
affairs of others into a menace to society. I play traveller to escape the
real world
nd to have fun with different worlds, and I really think it rather silly to
catergorise
people by just one aspect of their personality (I blame that on new math and
all those
damn sets personally :*> ).
     <Andrew gets off the soapbox and hunts out his asbestos underware>

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:24:48 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

- -> > I never disagreed here.  It was just that you backed up your claim by
- -> > referring to two adjoining countries whose dominant difference is
- -> > based more on *national wealth* than *technology*.
- -> 
- -> 
- -> What kind of computer does Mexico produce? 
- -> 
- ->  What kind of high tech jet military fighter aircraft does Mexico 
- -> produce? 
- -> 
- ->  What kind of space program does Mexico have?   
- -> 
- -> What technological advances has Mexico made recently?
- -> 
- -> Get the picture?
- -> Kenneth.
Kenneth, that's the typical american outlook / worldview  again. Just 
because another country can't afford finanially to build expensive 
technologies doesn't mean they can't! They are not of a different 
Tech Level, but rather financially underequipped to afford the higher 
level. Why would they NEED to build a high tech jet military fighter? 
Feed the people first, raise their standard of living, create jobs. 
Then you can thinkl about upgrading your airforce (however, even 
then, it would be a waste of money!). They don't need a space 
program. It's ridiculous to think that every country on the planert 
needs its own little space program! The current situation is 
horrifying. Why can't the spacefaring countries (US, Europe, Japan 
and Russia maybe) create a unified space organization funded by all. 
It would be much more cost effecrtive than the national programms 
today. 
Just because a country can't afford as many research labs to make 
technological breakthroughs as it's big neighbor does, that doesn't 
mean that it's on a different technological level entirely. Give them 
the financial possibility and they will have the same capacity!

Get the picture?  













Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:33:41 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> Many many years ago (early 80s, perhaps?), somebody wrote two or three
> stories for Analog in a universe like this.  We made first contact with
> extraterrestrial intelligence when a wooden spacecraft came sliding down
> over Los Angeles, landed in the quad at UCLA, and disgorged a few dozen
> short furry humanoid warriors armed with pole-axes and arquebusses,
> intent on conquering the world.  The LAPD Riot Squad successfully
> contained this alien invasion within an hour or so.
> 
> It turned out that the (linked) secrets of gravitic propulsion and FTL
> travel were so mind-bogglingly simple, so utterly *obvious*, that nearly
> every intelligent species stumbled across them somewhere around the late
> bronze age.  Only humanity and one other species had been so cursed by
> Murphy that they managed to miss out.
> 
> Anyone remember titles or author for these, and whether they've been
> collected somewhere?  I've always just loved the idea...and it would make
> for a truly strange game!
- ---I can`t remember the author or title either but the first one was
printed in one of Jerry Pournelle`s There Will Be War anthology series.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:19:15 +0300
From: "Hakan Koseoglu" <hkose@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr>
Subject: Re: Vilani names

Hi there...

> It is also interesting that in the 3rd Imperium, X-boats are not
named
> but numbered.  Maybe the Vilani are similar to the Idirians in
> _Consider Phlebas_, with their "Hand of God 489" or whatever it was.

Just I hope nobody have ships named as Culture names! :-)
Look at ships now we have. How many "Invincible" are/were out there? Or
Starship/Battleship/Carrier "Enterprise"? :) Numbering them are quite
OK in this view!

                                                 Hakan Koseoglu

- - hkose@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr
- - HiTNeT - 8:103/111 | Fidonet - 2:430/312 - That's All Folks!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:24:02 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Newbie hello.

Hello all. This is my first post to the list, and so thought I had better
just introduce myself. My name is Dave Crowhurst, but normally sign off my
messages using 'gentloser'. I have been roleplaying for about 15 years on
and off, starting with D&D then AD&D, Cyberpunk, SLA Industries. T4 is the
first Traveller product I have ever owned, but I am very impressed with it
so far (though there are a lot of annoying typos/ommisions that will no
doubt be ironed out for the 2nd printing).=20
I'm 25 years old, live in Winchester which is a city in Hampshire in the
south of England. I'll be using my own version of the Imperium background
for my games, just see how it develops I think. So far I have T4 books 1 and=
 3.=20

enough for now,

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:23:59 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

>Yo Folks,

Hello all, this is my first post to this list and i'll do a better intro for
myself at a later date. Still I wanted to reply to this post...

>  One could see this as a good thing. With a caring management you might
>have smoother internal operations. Bringing out a new Campaign Setting for
>AD&D set in the Magic Universe could revitalise both the RPG market and the
>CCG market.

But can WoTC be trusted with *any* RPG's these days. They had a range of
products which were not making profits. They sold them/gave them away so
that they could concentrate on CCG's. At the time PA at WoTC said that he
felt 'wotc cannot offer rpg lines the development they deserve' or words to
that effect. Why has this suddenly changed?
Now i'm hoping that wotc will just trim off some of the surplus t$r lines
and take AD&D back to its roots, but then again maybe they will just strip
the assets and sell a range of new CCG's. Only time will tell.

>sell as well. It is going to be the marginals that go.
>  Like Traveller.
>  Face it: we're a marginal game. There has been no publicity blitz for The
>New and Improved Traveller. There is no buzz in the marketplace. No new
>gamers are buying the product. Just us old dinosaurs. If IG can keep its

Well that is not exactly true. I have never had any of the previous
Traveller products, but T4 grabbed my attention enough to buy it. I think
that the time is right for a good quality SF game to come onto the market,
what is the competition out there? There is no reason why T4 cannot become a
real alternative to D&D as the first rpg kids buy, and also appeal to
older/mature rpg'ers.

>            Jo

regards
Dave C.
aka gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:37:54 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@southwest.net>
Subject: Missile launchers

To the SSDS/QSDS Answer team,

Having played around a bit with SSDS I noticed light missile turrets carry
three missiles, but in QSDS these same launcher systems only have a salvo
of two. FS&S, the grandparent document also limited light turrets to two
missiles. Was this an oversight by the people who designed SSDS or was the
launcher system redesigned to hold three? If so, what was the methodology
of this turret configuration? 
Brian A. Howard

If you hear the sound of a Babel fish, run. 
For a Vogon constuctor fleet cannot be far behind.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

>The *obvious* answer is that "he" is actually a female-to-male<snip>
Brilliant piece of lateral thinking Kenji, but is he "just" a crossdresser,
or a pre-op?
dsf
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:36:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Racism, Sexism and the Third Imperium

IMHO-The Imperium would be free from racism sexism, and all the other "isms"
just like the Northeast coast of the U.S. Really, honest. No racism here.....
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:43:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

To Douglas Berry,
No one stands alone-perhaps WE should count off in the same manner as the
Women in Traveller-
TWO!
Neveron-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1226
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1227



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Mexican Technology
Re: Missile launchers
Norris-as-transsexual (was: Norris's sexual orientation)
The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up
Re:Who are we
Re: Yes, I am a [NOISY] mathematician
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1219
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: conservations
Re: Strange Tech Combos
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Gun damage
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Newbie hello.
Re: My life-story (so far)
Re: Alien Sexual Orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:10:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Mexican Technology

>>  What kind of space program does Mexico have?
>
>None, other than leased bandwidth on others' birds.

They have at least one satellite, called Morelos.   They didn't launch it, but
they built it.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:20:55 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Missile launchers

At 05:37 am 04/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>To the SSDS/QSDS Answer team,
>
>Having played around a bit with SSDS I noticed light missile turrets carry
>three missiles, but in QSDS these same launcher systems only have a salvo
>of two. FS&S, the grandparent document also limited light turrets to two
>missiles. Was this an oversight by the people who designed SSDS or was the
>launcher system redesigned to hold three? If so, what was the methodology
>of this turret configuration? 

	Errr .... that seems to be an erratum. All the other numbers for the light
turrets match exactly with the FF&S values, so ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:23:08 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Norris-as-transsexual (was: Norris's sexual orientation)

Neveron wrote:

>>The *obvious* answer is that "he" is actually a female-to-male<snip>
>Brilliant piece of lateral thinking Kenji, but is he "just" a crossdresser,
>or a pre-op?

Hm, with TL15+ medicine available to him, even his *surgeons* would never
know...

Ahem.  My suggestion was, obviously, flippant, but the appeal of it is
growing on me.  As a solutions to the question of Norris' sexual identity
go, it's certainly likely to confuse the Aslan even *more*, as well as
irritate players who aren't interested in the topic.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:32:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

Since we've recently been dealing with questions of 
Norris and his aide, Vargr in heat, and other fun stuff,
let's open the floor to other reproducively-related subjects:


Non-biological Aslan
   Aslan define themselves by culture, not by species. Anyone
who abides by Aslan culture is part of "the people," whatever
their DNA says (and in some cases, it isn't even DNA). One 
obvious example are the Solomani humans who became Clan Zodia.
Less well known are other human and alien Minor Races within
Aslan space that have adopted Aslan culture.

One of the marks of Traveller Aliens(tm) is the Pushmepullyou
of "culture is separate from biology, but is often strongly
informed by biology." In the Aslans' case, the proper
roles of females and males is influenced by their 3:1
female:male birth ratio. So what happens when humans
(with a 1:1 ratio) adopt Aslan culture on a large scale,
like Clan Zodia. (Individuals could make individual
sacrifices, but large groups would have to find ways
of institutionalizing those sacrifices so that it can
continue to function, even exist, as a coherent unit.)
Human clans are stuck with extra sons.

What about inter-clan marraiges? Allied Aslan clans
may inter-marry to strenghten bonds, so what happens
when one clan is not biologically aslan? Do political
marraiges still take place? And does the Aslans'
intricate codes of behavior include mandates about
marital "duties" for husbands and wives? <wince>.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:32:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up

There's a line in one of the Traveller Digest's 'In
Defense of...' articles (the '...Lucan' one) that 
states in effect that every imaginable sexual practice --
including abstinence -- is considered immoral SOMWHERE
within the vast expanses of the Imperium.

OK, most of us won't be delving into the sexual politics
of the Imperium too deeply in our campaigns. The closest
I came is in one of the short scenarios in The Traveller 
Adventure, the one where the young lady from a poor 
mining family entered into a surrogate-mother contract
(the fine print of which also required her to act as
a concubine) and she bargains with the PC's to help here 
get out of it (big reminder: the Imperium is about commerce, 
not individual rights). Aside from that, there was just 
all those times my players failed their Carousing rolls
after nights in Seedy Space-Ranger Bars and woke up in
ambiguous but very embarrasing situations... .

However, some of the strong feelings people have
expressed in the 'gay' threads is directly applicable
to much more common Traveller situations:

Negative attitudes and stereotypes that exist in the
real world about gays very closely parallel Imperial
attitudes towards Psionics: that it's a perverted aberration
that violates the natural sanctity of one's own mind!
They want to hump your BRAIN! AND YOUR KIDS' BRAIN!

Seriously, most of the time PC's (or at least mine) treated 
psionics lightly, as if having psions around (or being one)
was just another tool, like having a big honking FGMP-15.
The FGMP can be controlled easily by Law Level, but
psi was more ambiguous, and too often fell through the
cracks. If you're using psionics in your game, make the
players feel that prejudice, feel like the gay guy at
a Jimmy Swaggert revival(or just afterward, in a dark
corner of the parking lot)[or in more intense cases, like
a jew at a Nuremburg rally]. Make them understand that
they're playing with fire to have anything to do with
psionics. It adds loads more tension to ANY scenario
with a psionics connection.

This applies in ANY milieu. While it's most applicable to
the Classic (and therefore post-Supressions) Imperium,
a certain paranoia about uncertain, unseeable powers
will exist earlier (M:0, M:200, etc.) which the
Supressions tap into to be so (overly-)successful. 
Likewise a lingering prejudice based on strongly
internalized values in a post-Imperial (TNE) setting.

Separate, but related to this, is the prospect of 
segregation in the Imperial armed forces.  Some
segregation exists in the case of non-humans for
sheer, biologically-driven logistical purposes.
Since it is not a role of the Imperial military
to act as an assimilating, homogenizing influence,
there will be cases where local prejudices (against
women, against men, against aliens, against gays, 
against people who bathe regularly, against people who
don't bathe regularly, against certain hair lengths,
against people who think premarital sex is immoral,
against people who think post-pubescent abstinence is 
perverted, etc. ad nauseum) are enough to impede unit 
efficiencey if they're all tossed together, but not 
enough to justify excluding them from Imperial service.

Might the command structure wink at segregating units
along some general social lines? Might there be all-male
or all-female units for people who just can't accept
orders from the other sex? Or maybe sex-segregated
units are the norm, but there are certain mixed units
for people from worlds where, socially, that is important
for any number of reasons. Unofficial segregation based
on local prejudices might have added to the "regional
loyalty" problems in the Rebellion Era.

Whatever the reason, your players might just encounter elements
of the 33214th Imperial Marines, The Amazons, composed 100%
of human females for whatever reason the GM sees fit. ;)


JB

TCGM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:57:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re:Who are we

 
	Ok, now let's guess who's gay by reading between the lines of
those "who are we" postings!
 
	<snickers>
 
	<ducks relativistic rocks>

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:48:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Yes, I am a [NOISY] mathematician

In mail you write:

> Another more interesting (relevant?) topic, has to do with another branch
> of Mathematics that deals with random walks. In this there is a discrete
> difference between 2D and 3D space.
>
> If you have a 2D integral plane. Mark one spot as "the ship" and another as
> the starting position for "The Drunken Sailor". Each move the drunken
> sailor takes a step in one of four random directions. You can prove that,
> given an infinate (aleph-0) amount of time, the sailor is garunteed to
> eventually reach the ship.
>
> If you have a 3D integral plane. And do it the same. You can prove that,
> given an infinate (aleph-0) amount of time, the sailor is not garunteed to
> eventually reach the ship.

Silly question. Will the 3d sailor return to his starting point?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:51:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1219

In mail you write:

>>Consider, if the thruster has to push against a planet or star, then
>>both the momentum and energy will balance, and should do so in all
>>frames.
>
> Oops - I dropeed a minus sign when I worked this out in my head. You're
> quite right; conservation applies in all frames. 
>
>>But power required goes up exponentially (literally) with velocity
>
> Actually, it's linear with velocity: 
> power required = (mass of ship)*(acceleration)*(velocity relative to planet)
>
> Still, not very efficient.

I just thought of a couple of interesting side effects of the "pusher" drive.

1. you'll sometimes want to change which body you are pushing on.
2. The last ditch defense against boarding is to push on the ship
   that's trying to close. But if you use two ship's boats, they can't
   push on both at once. And in any case, if they have more Gs than
   you, they can "reverse push" (pull) on you harder than you can push
   them away. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:09:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:39:06 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> I don't see the problem with having high tech systems next to low 
>> tech systems.
>> 
>> I mean, we're talking about solar systems here, and a parsec is a 
>> long way away even given the technology and drives in Traveller.
>
> A parsec away is *nothing*, considering that any starship has a
> minimum of jump-1.  Any free trader can stop by, and according to the
> Traveller universe, there are A LOT of them.

But *why* would he stop by? What's in it for him? And it takes a *lot*
of work to do anything beyond the "sell trinkets to the natives" stage.

>> Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different 
>> tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same 
>> contintent.
>
> I wouldn't say that US and Mexico are "vastly" different in regards to
> tech levels (2, maybe 3 points away at best).  Just because they don't
> launch their own satellites or have a nuclear capability doesn't make
> them low tech.  They simply have better places to spend their limited
> resources.  They are definitely a poorer country, and this does
> contribute in some part to the country's perceived "tech level".

Outside the cities, most of Mexico is about TL1, if not TL0. Little
changed since the conquest.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:34:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:12:31 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:
>
>>       This brings a question to my mind--what other expertise do we have out
>> there we could tap into. Say somebody has a very specific question--they'd
>> be more likely to ask it if they knew there was somebody "qualified" to
>> answer it... Is there any interest in having people post a brief
>> description of their real-world background or experience that might be 
> useful?

Well, I don't have a degree. I ran out of money before I could finish
my AA in Computer Programming/Computer Operations. I've got around 25
years programming experience ranging from FORTRAN and RPG II, to Pascal
and several assemblers.

I've been a voracious reader of science and science fiction. I was
correcting the teachers as far back as 6th grade. :-)

I also have some metal and woodworking experience (very oudated) and
remember enough electronics to get myself in trouble. I've worked for a
company that produced silicon wafers and picked up a lot of different
things there. I also used to fly model rockets, and I've been involved
with the Society for Creative Anachronism on and off for about 25 years
(so I do have some idea what low tech societies can do, as well as *how*).

Oh yeah, I used to be an amateur chemist. I collected info on how to
make things that go "boom".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:41:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: conservations

In mail you write:

>
> you wrote
>
> Most welcome, and thank you as well.  Now, if I might presume upon your
> further indulgence...
>
> (a) In a classical rocket, the vessel tosses mass out the back, and thus
> moves forward thanks to momentum conservation. 
>
> (b) In a thruster-propelled ship using the "push on the star" dodge, the
> vessel shoves a large mass backward, and thus moves forward thanks to
> momentum conservation. 
>
> I thought I understood, but it's clear I don't:  Why does (b) violate
> energy conservation, but not (a)?
>
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Because - in a frame in which the starship is travelling rapidly and 
> accelerating
> (like the star rest frame) the fuel is actually *losing* energy; the fuel
> comes out the back of the starship, as it were, and ends up moving more 
> slowly
> than the starship initially was - hence the fuel has lost kinetic energy
> the ship has gained some, and the total (plus the energy liberated by
> whatever heated the fuel) balances out.

Bruce,

Better refigure your argument. Remember, both KE and momentum are
*vector* quantities. The ship pushing on the star gives the star an
equal KE and momentum, but in the opposite direction. Total is *zero*.

The ship pushing on it's exhaust works the same way, *except* that it
only pushes on a given "piece" of exhaust once. 

Either way things balance, but the multiple pushes greatly decreases
the *efficiency* of the "push on the star" drive.

We went through this (with equations and calculations) about two weeks
back in rec.arts.sf.science.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:54:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Strange Tech Combos

In mail you write:

>   Just what is startown like on various worlds - especially the
>   pre-starflight-tech worlds?

Read Andre Nortons SF. She has "startowns" on various tech worlds and
handles them fairly well.

>   nuclear powered submarines.  The final cut between two
>   sections of the Tunnel is made by laser - and the upper class
>   travels through the streets of London in carriages with
>   carriage drivers (as though they were horse drawn, though it's
>   not clear whether they are or not))? 

I read "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" when it was serialized in
Analog. The accompanying illos had a sort of small steam engine hitched
to the carriages, and controlled by reins!

>   you encounter?  Is startown more like New York or Sanctuary?
>   Or does it depend on how heavy the traffic is?

Some will be like New York. The ones on *really* low tech worlds will
be more like Sanctuary *outside* the "fence". Inside, there will be
high tech, but only as needed.

You might check out a few of the Darkover books for a another example
of a port on a "low tech"<grin> world.

Heck, Darkover would be a lovely trick to pull on your players. An
"obviously medieval" world, with this silly law known as "The Compact"
which forbids the use of any weapon that works beyond arms reach. The
Terrans thought it was "quaint". Right up until they learned the *hard
way* why the law existed. Seems that Darkover has a high tecnology
after all. Psi based. And when someone unearths one of the old,
outlawed weapons, there's hell to pay. But on the bright side, after
that the Terrans are *more* than willing to help enforce the Compact. :-)

Oh, the weapon? Think of it as a psi-based PGMP sized to roast
*cities*. The Darkovans had *damned* good reasons for outlawing much
of their own technology. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:20:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

In mail you write:

>>-      15 December 1942: Adams and Mueller, acting on instructions from
>>Berlin, kidnap Albert Einstein and smuggle him onto a U-Boat waiting off
>>Long Island Sound.  Mueller is killed in a shootout with shore patrol, but
>>Adams escapes on the U-Boat.

No point kidnapping Einstein. He's not *that* useful for nuclear work
(our program made very little use of him), and he's no good for the
rocket program.

You have the one thing needed to "fix" the German nuclear program.
Someone (von Gotterdmmerung) who gets the theory right, and who
(hopefully) *won't* make the error in reducing the data from an
experiment that led the Germans in *our* world to believe that nuclear
*bombs* were impossible. Likewise, I don't think that you *really* need
Goddard, as von Braun and company were pretty good, and you have von
Gotterdammerung to help them.

>>-      8 November 1943: the first V-1 falls on London.
>>
>>-      8 January 1944: The first V-2 falls on London.  The earlier and
>>intense V-weapon bombardment is sufficient to delay D-Day by well over a
>>year.

And it will help if the V2 is fitted with a proximity detonator rather
than an impact one. That change alone would double the damage. 

>>-      27 June 1945: Einstein, returned to Alamagordo, and bearing
>>valuable information from the Nibellung-1 project at Peenemunde, leads the
>>Manhattan Project to a successful test detonation at Trinity.  Bomb
>>production is intensified.

By that time in *our* time line they were almost ready for a test, and
the lack of Einstein wouldn't have slowed things. Data from the Yonkers
bomb will only help.

>>-      10 December 1948: now Air Marshal, Sir Eamon Dunhill becomes the
>>senior military member newly formed Royal Space Agency, led by
>>distinguished radar scientist Arthur C. Clarke.  The RSA, under Dunhill's
>>influence, begins to follow a spaceplane, rather than booster,
>>orientation.  The foresighted Clarke and the dashing former fighter pilot
>>form an unlikely close friendship.

In our world Clarke was merely a *technician*.

In the later stages, you grossly neglect rocket *planes*. We got into
those after the war, and eventually got to the X-15, at which point the
Air Force was *ordered* to let NASA and the Apollo program do things.

In your timeline the successful Komet and Natter, plus some of the
other things the Germans would have come up with would ensure that the
US was following both the "manned missile" *and* the "fly into orbit"
paths. 

And given Yeager's position, he'd be flying an uprated X-15 or DynaSoar
type vehicle. I'd expect the army to be going for the "missile" path,
the Air Force to be going for the rocketplanes, and the Navy to be
messing with both.

In our timeline the Navy launched several Viking rockets (US design
based on the V2) from ships. And if Heinlein was in anything
*approaching* his "preferred" posting, he'd be attached to the Navy's
space effort. Probably arguing for rocket planes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:56:56 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

Dave,

I wasn't saying that they weren't there, I meant that I haven't gone
and looked for them in a while, so I wasn't sure (this is about ship
forms, BTW :-).

Sorry for the confusion,
			Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:15:18 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

 
> Just out of curiousity, what type of ballistic weapon would be
> required to "blow your right limb off"?  How much kinetic energy are
> we talking about?  I really need to know the answer to this one :)
 
Hmm, actually, it would take quite a lot.  Damara just told me that
she worked on a woman who almosy had an arm blown off by a slug from
a shotgun.  I don't know whether it was a 00 buchshot  slug, or a
true full-bore slug.  She said the arm was hanging on by
"hamburger."

Unfortunately it continued through her arms and got her head, she
didn't make it.

Off hand, I'd say that it would have to hit a bone, and it should be
a big bullet since it's gonna be a through and through hit on
something like an arm
- --merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:14:38 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

Volker Greimann wrote:

>
>- -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
>How you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german"
>names will always remain a riddle to me.
>

	Well, IIRC, "gotterdammerung" is German for "apocalypse", "von"
indicates landed gentry, and Siegfried was the hero of the Ring Cycle, no?
I chose it for the sort of over-the-top cheezy propagandistic B-movie
villain ring it had; I thought it sounded exactly like what a Nazi mad
scientist out of some bad 1950's American pulp-SF novel would be named.

	So basically, the answer to your riddle is that this Canadian came
up with this particular wierd "german" name deliberately, with satirical
intent :).


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:29:52 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

At 11:24 PM 4/18/97 -0700, Craig Berry wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:11:36 +0000
>> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>> 
>> > I never disagreed here.  It was just that you backed up your claim by
>> > referring to two adjoining countries whose dominant difference is
>> > based more on *national wealth* than *technology*.
>> 
>> What kind of computer does Mexico produce? 
>
>Dell and Gateway-2000, that I know of.  I'm sure there are many others.

Come again?  I'm not aware of any state-of-the-art silicon fabs in Mexico,
and I'm pretty certain Gateway still assembles all their computers in their
big plant in South (North?) Dakota.  There might be a board assembly plants
in Mexico, but that's the "middleware" of computer hardware manufacture.  

>> Get the picture?
>
>Yes, I'm forming a very clear picture...that you have an odd idea of
>Mexico. ;)

I might say the same of you...

In Trav terms, how much of a planet's TL has to do with the best tech it's
imported or created, vs the living conditions (mortality, literacy,
disease, life expectancy, roads, communications, etc.) for the bulk of its
people?  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:36:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Newbie hello.

- -> Hello all. This is my first post to the list, and so thought I had better
- -> just introduce myself. My name is Dave Crowhurst, but normally sign off my
- -> messages using 'gentloser'. I have been roleplaying for about 15 years on
- -> and off, starting with D&D then AD&D, Cyberpunk, SLA Industries. T4 is the
- -> first Traveller product I have ever owned, but I am very impressed with it
Hooooray! Finally there's PROOF that not only old farts like the rest 
of us buy T4! Gentloser, welcome!

- -> so far (though there are a lot of annoying typos/ommisions that will no
- -> doubt be ironed out for the 2nd printing). 
- -> I'm 25 years old, live in Winchester which is a city in Hampshire in the
- -> south of England. I'll be using my own version of the Imperium background
- -> for my games, just see how it develops I think. So far I have T4 books 1 and 3. 
Be sure to mail us about your progress. It'll be nice to see a 
newbie's perspective on the beloved T-background :-).Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:29:59 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: My life-story (so far)

At 12:13 AM 4/19/97 -0700, Trent Smith wrote:
>     I'm currently 22 years old, and am a English major at Pomona College
>(a tiny but well-respected Liberal Arts school located about 6 blocks from
>Harvey Mudd College in Claremont, California), 

Hmmm.  I went to Pitzer for a year, back in 1979.  Had a _great_ time, but
decided I'd best go elsewhere if I wanted an actual scholastic education.
Nothing against the school, but most of the psychobiology majors were way
into... psychobiology. If you get my drift. :)

Any other Claremont folks here, by chance?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:13:13 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Sexual Orientation

> Wow! This just raises a really big question in my mind--I don't really
>care either way about whether Norris pitches or catches... but what 
>about
>sexual orientation in other Traveller species? Especially one like the
>Aslan, which has gender-specific behavioural patterns that seem to be at
>least in part biologically driven? And how does sexual orientation 
>affect those?

Ok.... after weeks of making reference to this material I finally went 
and dug it up ( Just a note to the wise: When your girlfriend breaks up 
and moves out on you and she volunteers to clean your apt before she 
goes.... SAY NO! ).  It was written by Mark Metlay and was made 
available on this mailing list on Mar 10, 1993. ( Does that get me any 
longevity awards? ) I made a hard copy of it and thats all I have 
available. Its an eight page essay on Vargr and Aslan sexual practices, 
anatomy, and so forth.

And I quote from the Aslan section " Homosexuality is essentially 
nonexistent between males, for a number of reasons, chief among them the 
lack of appropriate nerve endings in the rectum and a lack of necessary 
odor cues.  On the other hand, homosexual relations between females are 
extremely common, perhaps more common than heterosexual relations in the 
light of the 4:1 female to male ratio in the Aslan."  Later it goes on to 
note that the male Aslan found male homosexuality to be a dishonorable 
act.
	However, I suppose with enough of a tolerance skill and a belief 
that the human barbarians are liable to do anything could make up for all 
that.  Any opinions?

John



- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1227
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 19 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1228



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Gun damage
Imperium Games catalog.
Re: Gays, gimme a break
Re: Gun damage
[none]
Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Alien Sexual Orientation
Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Milieu:1889
Wooden Ships and Fuzzy Men
Democratic societies in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:22:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:

>>It *would* be interesting to work out the mechanics of a system where
>>delta-v cost depended on present speed wrt the nearest massive object,
>>though.  Maybe I'll take a stab at it sometime soon...

>Do it. It'll solve the near c rock problem as well.

Yes, I'd be very interested in seeing the figure on just how much energy
is needed for a ship of X mass and Y velocity.  So long as you can reach
speeds of over a hundred kps in system travel times aren't that bad. 

So, just how large a power plant would be needed to take a 1000 ton (mass
not displacement) scout ship to 100 or 200 kps?  If its not *too* much
above 50-100 MW we're in business.  I'd do it myself, but my physics days
ended 15 years ago. 

I see no reason why Thrusters need to be useful for gaining relativistic
speeds (and several reasons why they shouldn't). 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:54 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 12:57 PM 4/19/97 MET, you wrote:
>-> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
>How you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german" 
>names will always remain a riddle to me.

Bad movies about WWII mostly....

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:48 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

At 06:55 AM 4/19/97 GMT, you wrote:

>Just out of curiousity, what type of ballistic weapon would be
>required to "blow your right limb off"?  How much kinetic energy are
>we talking about?  I really need to know the answer to this one :)

The IMI Desert Eagle .50 has a muzzle energy of about 1800J.  This will take
off an arm if the bone is hit directly.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Imperium Games catalog.

Got a nice surprise in today s-mail.. a catalog from IG.  It lists products
through December, and has a nice letter from Courtney.

Included with the catalog is a coupon for getting the discount on the T4
deluxe edition, which is a nice touch for those of us who are
credit-impaired and have to send money orders for everything.

Now the bad news:

"Erratta from the previous book will be fixed..."
 ^^^^^^^

They misspelled it.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:46 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break

At 12:40 AM 4/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Chris Griffen wrote:

>> So if you don't like it, just gloss over them and move on instead of trying
>> to rain on others' parade.
>What, people who don't like a thread are to shut up?
>

Pretty much.  I didn't complain about the endless task system
discussion/rant/chest-beating, I just deleted the messages I wasn't
interested in, and went on.  Same thing when we got into detailed discussion
of Age of Sail tactics.. I wasn't interested, so I skipped it.

Sorry if you feel this is off-topic, but some people clearly find the
discussion of how Imperial society reacts to such issues as homosexuality
relavent.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:50 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

At 06:55 PM 4/18/97 -0600, Merrick wrote:

>I imagine it takes several minutes for most gunshot casualties to
>die even if mortally wounded, though they might be unable to fight
>fairly quickly.

They tend to come in two categories: dead before you hit the ground, and
lingering for days.

The problem with modeling gunshot damage for a RPG is that so much of what
happens depends on the mental state of the victim.  A trained soldier
running on an andreniline rush, might not notice the shrapnel wounds in his
arm, while a robbery victim might die from being hit in the ass by a .22
pistol round.

To model this in T4, I've changed the "vitals hit" from being a deliberate
attempt to any hit that exceeds the target number by 5 or 9.  A character at
short range is going to have a better chance of putting one into the vitals
(reflected by the higher target number), than a PC 100m away.

I'm still working on my wounding rules, but here is a quick and dirty look
at how wounds get worse over time.

Superficial Wounds: PC will lose an additional point of damage every 30
minutes until treated.

Minor Wounds: PC loses 1pt/15 minutes until treated.  When conscious, the PC
must make an Average Endurance task to perform any strenous act, or pass out.

Serious Wounds: PC loses 1/5 minutes until treated.  Even if PC regains
wakes up, s/he will be unable to more than talk, and will require a Formid:
Int task to remember a particular piece of information.

Treatment in this case is a sucessful First Aid task, starting with Easy for
Superficial, and going up one difficulty level for each wound level thereafter.

>Another thing to look at is the scumbag factor---rate NPCs and PCs
>by how nice they are, nice guys die fast, the scumbags tend to be
>indestructable :-)  Damara maintains that niceness is a "poor
>prognostic indicator" from her hectic intern experience. Hmmm, maybe
>she'll get home soon *sigh*  :-)

<grin>  We used to joke about the "Infantry Survival Index", a mythical Army
guide to how long each grunt will survive WWIII.. It had entries like "SM is
from a farm: -5 days.  SM has blonde girlfriend waiting for him: -10 days.
SM's wife just gave birth to son: death in next 10 minutes..."

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:35:21 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: [none]

>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:55:34 GMT
>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

>Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

Sure, why not.

I have a degree in physics, with concentrations in computational methods
and economics from Harvey Mudd College.  After that, I went to Claremont
Graduate School for a math degree, which was focussed on PDEs, numerical
analysis, and mathematical modelling.  I paid for the above by writing a
Macintosh Finite Element analysis program on mac/vax for one of the
professors.

I spent a year after that doing image processing, OCR, and chaos analysis
for a few people, and then went to Berkeley for an operations
research/industrial engineering degree.

Since them, I have done some contract work on digital mapping, and for the
last four years have been writing Windows (gack) and Mac (hee hee) software
in C++ for an econometric and forecasting software company in Irvine.

Anyone associated with software developers in Irvine, give me a call :)
(Sorry, am jobhunting, and I fear I slipped into resume mode.)

I have some exposure to the martial arts, but was never terribly good at
it, and am slowly starting to become a decent guitarist.  Oh, I and two
friends wrote a novel based on our RuneQuest game.  Like every one of those
I have heard of, it is better off forogtten, or at least not read.  Was
fun, though.

How's that for someone who likes to change fields?

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:49:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

WOW, John!  Great ideas on the Zodian "Aslan" -- makes me want to run a
campaign there!  (I hate "me-too" posts, but this article was just too
perceptive not to praise).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 12:15:08 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 04/19/97 at 12:57 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

> -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West How
> you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german"  names
> will always remain a riddle to me.

Don't blame *this* one on Americans!  First, I'm pretty sure that RDR is
Canadian (and we don't take responsibility for *anything* they do), and
second when we do make up German names we just follow Wanger's lead...<g>
OTOH, I will admit Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is a *little* over the
top, but pretty appropriate given the history. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 13:56:03 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 04/19/97 at 05:20 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> >>-      15 December 1942: Adams and Mueller, acting on instructions from
> >>Berlin, kidnap Albert Einstein and smuggle him onto a U-Boat waiting
> off >>Long Island Sound.  Mueller is killed in a shootout with shore
> patrol, but >>Adams escapes on the U-Boat.

> No point kidnapping Einstein. He's not *that* useful for nuclear work
> (our program made very little use of him), and he's no good for the
> rocket program.

You are right about that, in hind-sight, but there are two possible reasons
the Nazis might try to grab Einstein:  1) They *think* he would be useful
to their nuclear program, and 2) They think he would be useful to *our*
nuclear program.  I believe they would want to deny him to the Allied side
more than anything, and that being the case they would have assassinated
him, not kidnapped him.  So, I propose..

Goddard was assassinated not kidnapped, but this alerted the FBI that
American scientists might be a target for Nazi agents.  The attempt
,several weeks later, to kill Einstein came on a street outside Columbia
University while he was talking with Leo Slizard and Robert Oppenhiemer. 
Slizard and Oppenhiemer threw themselves in front of Einstein and were
killed, Einstein was only wounded.  Both assassins were killed by Secret
Service agents assigned to protect Einstein.

Einstein did not provide much practical help to the American
Manhattan Project, but the loss of Leo Slizard was strongly felt. Finding a
replacement with his organizational skills delayed the project by several
months.

> In the later stages, you grossly neglect rocket *planes*. We got into
> those after the war, and eventually got to the X-15, at which point the
> Air Force was *ordered* to let NASA and the Apollo program do things.

> In your timeline the successful Komet and Natter, plus some of the other
> things the Germans would have come up with would ensure that the US was
> following both the "manned missile" *and* the "fly into orbit" paths. 

I strongly agree here as well.  The "fly into orbit" track almost made it
in OUR timeline, and with the boost RDR is giving things I think they would
have made it before the missile crowd was able to, politically, squeeze
them out.

> And given Yeager's position, he'd be flying an uprated X-15 or DynaSoar
> type vehicle. I'd expect the army to be going for the "missile" path, the
> Air Force to be going for the rocketplanes, and the Navy to be messing
> with both.

How about Edwards as the first American in space?  Then he dies when his
Bell X-16's right skid fails on landing..so they can still name Edwards
Airforce Base after him...only now it's called Edwards SpaceForce Base. 
<G> Yeager is the second American in space, and the first to orbit.

The rocketplane program is considered "boy's and their toys", by the
artillery officers that run the main missile program, because the the
little planes can't get any kind of payload into orbit.  The Russians
basically agree and continue pursuing their artillery rocket program.

> In our timeline the Navy launched several Viking rockets (US design based
> on the V2) from ships. And if Heinlein was in anything *approaching* his
> "preferred" posting, he'd be attached to the Navy's space effort.
> Probably arguing for rocket planes.

I wonder about that...the Navy might have gone for sea-based launch, and
that would have had to be missile, I'd think.

This would give us in the early 50's groups pursuing:

Missile based systems

    USSR    - in the lead with first satellite in orbit
    
    US Army - concentrating on artillery applications
    
    US Navy - working on sea-launch/landing applications

    France  - behind everybody, but doggedly chugging along

Rocketplane based systems

    USAF - the X-plane program is putting single pilots into orbit, and
           beginning to move into the Dynasoar program.

    RAF - pursuing a piggy-backed rocketplane approach, and hard
          at work on hypersonic materials and engine research
          leading eventually to duel-mode engine HOTOL systems.

Cmdr.  Heinlein, given the rest of RDR's timeline, *should* be posted to
Area 51 as Naval Liaison Officer, and later as the coordinator for Project
Green (let's let RDR decide just *what* Project Green is <G>).  Einstein is
also there trying to make sense of the principals behind the wreak's
partially reconstructed main drive, he's being assisted by a brilliant
young Feyemann (who gives up smoking and doesn't die young of cancer).

And one more thing...let's get HOWARD HUGHES involved!  ;-> Maybe HH went
the "high and fast" route rather than the "big and slow" Spruce Goose
route.  Sure he *eventually* nutted out, but in the late 40's early 50's he
still could have been an innovative force.  Maybe leading a private
industry effort to produce anti-podal delivery systems for cargo and
passengers.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:13 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Alien Sexual Orientation

Shade wrote:

>And I quote from the Aslan section " Homosexuality is essentially
>nonexistent between males, for a number of reasons, chief among them the
>lack of appropriate nerve endings in the rectum and a lack of necessary
>odor cues.  On the other hand, homosexual relations between females are
>extremely common, perhaps more common than heterosexual relations in the
>light of the 4:1 female to male ratio in the Aslan."  Later it goes on to
>note that the male Aslan found male homosexuality to be a dishonorable
>act.
>        However, I suppose with enough of a tolerance skill and a belief
>that the human barbarians are liable to do anything could make up for all
>that.  Any opinions?

Seems like even a little "Tolerance" skill, or even just exposure to human
society, could lead Aslan to shrug their shoulders disapprovingly and
dismissively when it comes to human sexual relations.  What they'd perceive
as 'dishonorable' practices would be totally rampant and random.  Consider
a human married couple, a man and a woman -- one a ship's gunner, say, and
the other a military officer in a command position.  What!  Flagrant male
homosexuality!  And they think it's *normal*!  They even call it a *legal
marriage*!  Etc.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:00 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

John Bogan wrote:

[snip]

>In the Aslans' case, the proper
>roles of females and males is influenced by their 3:1
>female:male birth ratio. So what happens when humans
>(with a 1:1 ratio) adopt Aslan culture on a large scale,
>like Clan Zodia. (Individuals could make individual
>sacrifices, but large groups would have to find ways
>of institutionalizing those sacrifices so that it can
>continue to function, even exist, as a coherent unit.)
>Human clans are stuck with extra sons.

Interesting!  Perhaps there's a disproportionately large number of human
ihatei roaming around the fringes of Aslan territory, then.  Also, if the
human clans adopted polygyny as well, there could be a real shortage of
marriage partners even for first-born sons.

Kinda far out here, but:  maybe these biologically human Aslan drew on
their Solomani ancestors' genetic engineering expertise to skew their own
birth pattern to a 3:1 F:M ratio?  Not sure how it could be done, though --
any of the biologist-types on the list care to comment?

>What about inter-clan marraiges? Allied Aslan clans
>may inter-marry to strenghten bonds, so what happens
>when one clan is not biologically aslan? Do political
>marraiges still take place? And does the Aslans'
>intricate codes of behavior include mandates about
>marital "duties" for husbands and wives? <wince>.

Wow.  Never thought of this one.

Once, years ago, I GMed a Traveller game that included a vaguely homophobic
and generally sheltered, naive player, who really wanted his character to
be a dewclaw-popping Aslan warrior-stud.  I convinced him to play a
biologically human Aslan warrior-stud instead; he came up with a really
good ihatei "assassin" warrior.  The game started in Aslan space, and the
guy played his character *wonderfully* -- totally in character; a great
interpretation of Aslan psychology, and not the Klingonesque crap that
seems to be the standard.  So when the party moved into Imperial territory
and the wretched barbarians insisted on calling this character "she," the
player was only upset for a half hour or so after catching on to what the
deal was <G>.  It was a situation I could personally relate to, too...  by
the end of the adventure, he was a little *too* into it, if anything.  If
the player hadn't been quite so naive, I would have expected certain
mis-use of his strap-on (dewclaw!) to occur ;)

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:06 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up

John Bogan wrote:

>Negative attitudes and stereotypes that exist in the
>real world about gays very closely parallel Imperial
>attitudes towards Psionics: that it's a perverted aberration
>that violates the natural sanctity of one's own mind!
>They want to hump your BRAIN! AND YOUR KIDS' BRAIN!
>
>Seriously, most of the time PC's (or at least mine) treated
>psionics lightly, as if having psions around (or being one)
>was just another tool, like having a big honking FGMP-15.
>The FGMP can be controlled easily by Law Level, but
>psi was more ambiguous, and too often fell through the
>cracks. If you're using psionics in your game, make the
>players feel that prejudice, feel like the gay guy at
>a Jimmy Swaggert revival(or just afterward, in a dark
>corner of the parking lot)[or in more intense cases, like
>a jew at a Nuremburg rally]. Make them understand that
>they're playing with fire to have anything to do with
>psionics. It adds loads more tension to ANY scenario
>with a psionics connection.

This is a really great comparison, I think -- and the anti-psionic
sentiment in the Imperium is, from what little I've seen and read of
Traveller campaigns, woefully watered-down.  Traveller seems to me to
attract a lot of "munchkins" rather than "serious role-players," and the
former need to have their psi powers, and flex them...  GMs need to oppress
the hell out of their players, damn it!

>Separate, but related to this, is the prospect of
>segregation in the Imperial armed forces.  Some
>segregation exists in the case of non-humans for
>sheer, biologically-driven logistical purposes.
>Since it is not a role of the Imperial military
>to act as an assimilating, homogenizing influence,
>there will be cases where local prejudices (against
>women, against men, against aliens, against gays,
>against people who bathe regularly, against people who
>don't bathe regularly, against certain hair lengths,
>against people who think premarital sex is immoral,
>against people who think post-pubescent abstinence is
>perverted, etc. ad nauseum) are enough to impede unit
>efficiencey if they're all tossed together, but not
>enough to justify excluding them from Imperial service.
>
>Might the command structure wink at segregating units
>along some general social lines?

This raises the question of where the members of the command structure are
drawn from, and where/how they acquire their own policy or attitude towards
these issues.  Seems to me that the upper tier of Imperial society has got
to share some commonly core of socio-cultural ethics, which is generally
"liberal" as we understand it now -- equal treatment of different species
for example -- but excluding some things (psionics, obviously, and also
homosexual marriage, probably.)

If the higher-ups lacked a *pro-actively* tolerant or inclusive approach,
the services might well only recruit those individuals who (regardless of
their own cultural background) were at least 'liberal' enough to function
smoothly with other random citizens of the Imperium that they might be
thrown together with in a unit.  So in a sense, the Imperial military
services *do* have acting as an assimilating/homogenizing force as one of
their goals.  At the very least, they need to produce senior officers who
are able to work with diverse, perhaps segregated, units under their
command.

[snip]
>Unofficial segregation based
>on local prejudices might have added to the "regional
>loyalty" problems in the Rebellion Era.

Yeah!  Makes good sense.

>Whatever the reason, your players might just encounter elements
>of the 33214th Imperial Marines, The Amazons, composed 100%
>of human females for whatever reason the GM sees fit. ;)

An extinct CT campaign I was once in featured a gang -- er, platoon -- of
Zhodani teleport-commandos who were all identical clones of a certain
Vilani noblewoman who, it had been noticed, had extremely high raw
psi-potential.  Her clones, however, were like...  well, Beavis AND
Butthead trapped in Arnold Schwartzenegger's body.  'Twasn't pretty.  A
manifold of upset to the Imperials <G>.

(Please excuse me if I'm not being very coherent; I'm taking massive doses
of antihistamines for the hay fever and feel like my head is a jump bubble
on the verge of collapsing.)

Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:19:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

Quoth Craig Berry:
> Speaking of positional uncertainty in jumps, I've always thought that
> there should be some, but not enough to cause huge problems.

I've always agreed with Leonard Erickson's (?) earlier proposition, that
the positional uncertainty has to do with the temporal uncertainty only so
far as the planets move around while you're stuck in jump.  Presumably you
"aim" so that, if your jump takes the median time, you'll be in just the
right spot.  If you're "early," you either have to wait for your
destination world to "catch up" in its orbit ot take the time getting
there yourself.  If you're "late," you have to go chasing after your
destination.

Note that this solution encourages trade depots and such in the outer
system (as discussed extensively in the THUDDD merchant thread), because
their orbital velocities, and hence positional "uncertainties" relative to
incoming jump craft, will be lower.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:47:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

The stories under discussion are, I believe, by Harry Turtledove -- but he
was using the pseudonym "Eric G. Iverson" at the time.  Perhaps because
his real name sounded even more like a pseudonym?  :-)

A quick check through my Analog archives turns up the following:

"Herbig-Haro" in the Oct. 1984 Analog -- this is the one with the scout
finding the new advanced species that someone else mentioned.

The index for 1985 (you can always find a year's index in the January
issue for the following year -- one of the best features of Analog,
without which I could never navigate my early-'70's to present collection)
lists Iverson, Eric G., with the notation "see Harry Turtledove," so I
guess he retook his own name fairly early (about midway through that
year, it runs out).  In that year we see:

"Bluff," Feb 1985 -- NOT one of the FTL -> low-tech stories, but an old
favorite of mine nonetheless, about the influence a simple poker game has
on the entire culture and mental life of a Sumerian-level people.

"The R Strain," Jun 1985 -- also not immediately relevant, but yet another
old favorite (I'd forgotten how _good_ Turtledove's short stories were!).
Can a geneered pig that chews a cud be kosher?

"Vilest Beast," Sep 1985 -- yeesh, am I straying from the topic?  This is
the first of "Iverson"/Turtledove's tales of European conquest and discovery
in a New World inhabited not by Amerinds, but by australopithecine-like
(but tailed) descendants of New World apes.  Gives a whole new spin to
Darwin, and to others.  The whole span was collected a few years back in a
paperback published as "A Different Flesh."

"The Road Not Taken," Nov. 1985.  And here's the story of the initial
first contact, splendidly told.

I'd best stop now, before I further delay this letter by reading even more
(ah, the virtues of interruptible email....).  Suffice to say, before went
whole-sale into his (excellent) alternate-history route, Turtledove also
wrote excellent "conventional" science-fiction, splendidly adaptable for
many a Traveller situation.


- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:46:58 -0700 (MST)
From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
Subject: Wooden Ships and Fuzzy Men

The story was written by Harry Turtledove, one of my favorite authors.  It 
was reprinted in a collection of his short stories, which I think was titles 
Departures.  UNfortunately, I've loaned it out and so I cannot remember the 
title.  The cover art featured a woman in a skin-tight suit leaning on a 
computer, and wound up being used as the cover of a Shadowrun game book 
about a year ago.

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> asks:
QUOTE ON-----------------------------------------------------
Many many years ago (early 80s, perhaps?), somebody wrote two or three
stories for Analog in a universe like this.  We made first contact with
extraterrestrial intelligence when a wooden spacecraft came sliding down
over Los Angeles, landed in the quad at UCLA, and disgorged a few dozen
short furry humanoid warriors armed with pole-axes and arquebusses,
intent on conquering the world.  The LAPD Riot Squad successfully
contained this alien invasion within an hour or so.

It turned out that the (linked) secrets of gravitic propulsion and FTL
travel were so mind-bogglingly simple, so utterly *obvious*, that nearly
every intelligent species stumbled across them somewhere around the late
bronze age.  Only humanity and one other species had been so cursed by
Murphy that they managed to miss out.

Anyone remember titles or author for these, and whether they've been
collected somewhere?  I've always just loved the idea...and it would make
for a truly strange game!
QUOTE OFF ------------------------------------------------
Steven T. Charlton
scharlto@rtd.com 
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:16:42 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Democratic societies in Traveller

>        In order to tie this in to Traveller somehow, a lot of fun could be
>had messing with players' expectations of a "democratic" society...

Agreed. And in messing with their expectations of a "feudal" Imperium. I
plan on introducing a democratic space alliance as an adversary to the
Imperium in my campaign. Most players have been so indoctrinated by
politics and Star Wars into believing democracies must be good and space
empires evil that they will probably side with the alliance even after it
holds a referendum and democratically decides that foreigners are inferior
and must be exterminated.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1228
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1229



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

A New Question (Starship Combat)
Fleet operations
Re:  Navigation (was Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties)
Re: Imperium Games catalog.
Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Re:  Navigation (was Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties)
Re: Gun damage
Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 
Re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Asteroid Mining and stuff
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Names
Re: Who we are
Re: Gun damage
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1219
A TML Call to Duty

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:16:52 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: A New Question (Starship Combat)

>Which starship combat system is your favorite?

Starship combat hasn't played a big role in my campaigns. In my high school
campaign I used Mayday. I still like its vector movement and simple rules.
One of my players likes Brilliant Lances, though he complains it is "too
simplistic"! He wants 3D vector movement.

In my current campaign I use the Role Playing Space Combat System by Joe
Walsh et al. For me, it is ideal because it emphasizes the actions of
characters and has decent sensor rules. The one thing I dislike about it is
that it uses a hex map. I have abandoned using hex maps for combat because
they make the game slow and wargamer-ish. Also, you cannot realistically
simulate space combat on a 2D map, it leads to absurd concepts like a
"battle line" in space.

The space combat system in T4 is too abstract and the sensor rules are
pitiful. It doesn't use a hex map though, which is good in my opinion.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:16:46 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Fleet operations

>I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point (say
>within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have the same
>Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the same
>formation they went in.

I had always assumed the exact opposite; that a fleet that jumps at the
same time arrives separately at the destination spread out over several
hours.

This effect infuenced space combat significantly in my old campaign. Large
ships and battle riders were far more effective in fleet operations since
your firepower would all arrive together. Attacking fleets would arrive at
a "rally point", usually a gas giant, instead of the final target. The
attackers would wait for enough of their fleet to arrive before moving to
the target under maneuver drive.

This effect also had dramatic story potential. Sensor buoys or scout ships
were often stationed in deep space to watch for enemy ships and alert their
base. These ships had high thrust, so they could escape if the first
arriving ship couldn't immediately take them out. Attackers were often left
with the dilemma of whether to attack early with a reduced force or wait
for the entire fleet and risk the defenders discovering them.

We can have it both ways by declaring that the preparation time/destination
coordination effect was not invented until late in the Third Imperium. This
means that in Milieu 0 large battle riders were dominant, while in later
eras smaller battleships were useful.

This brings up one complaint I have with Milieu 0; it is too similar to
Milieu 1100. Surely something should change in a society over 1000 years,
yet the social, political, economic, and even technological infrastructure
is identical over the entire Third Imperium's lifespan.

I think IG is missing the boat on this issue; homogenizing all the milieus
is going to stereotype Traveller as the "Third Imperium game" and make the
various milieus compete with each other for players. Already several TML
posters have described Milieu 0 as watered down and said milieu 1100 is the
only interesting one. They will be correct if the only difference between
milieus is the Imperium's average tech level.

I think the Third Imperium is big enough to have completely different game
environments over its long history. If all the milieus were substantially
different, each could be oriented toward a particular style of play or
science fiction theme and would be interesting and playable even after
later milieus came out. One milieu could be an age of heavy iron and fusion
beams, another could have nanotech and intelligent computers. Psionic
talents could be used everyday in one era, and be harshly outlawed in
another. Huge battleships could have the military edge in one era, while
small fighters rule in another.

All this could be done simply by limiting the range of technologies
available in each milieu. For example, if thruster plates were TL 14 or so,
they would not be available in the early stage of the Third Imperium, and
Milieu 0 would be a significantly different environment than Milieu 1100.
Once starships are able to synchronize their jump arrival time, large
fleets of smaller ships become feasible. If some weapon able to destroy a
ship regardless of its size is invented, small fighters would become rulers
of the spaceways. Instead of referees trying to bend the rules to suit the
style of game they want to play, they could just choose a milieu that most
matches their style.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:01:24 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:  Navigation (was Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties)

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:38:00 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
> 
> At 08:43 pm 04/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >A question comes to mind. Are we assuming that there is some sort of database
> >that tracks all the orbits of all known solarsystems on every ship? 

Yes I am, see below.

> > That
> >would be necessary for the calculations you are refering to prior to jump.
> > If there is no such database merely rough data on each system on orbit
> >distances, then you would have to plot planetary positions after Jump and all
> 
>         There's no need for a really detailed database. First-order orbital
> calculations require only six numbers to completely describe an orbit. That
> ain't very much.

Exactly so we can store this information on lots of planets.

> Furthermore, I don't need to store all known solar systems
> on my trusty smuggl// detached scout. Just the ones nearby. And I can
> always get updates at each starport along the way.

You may not need to know planet positions for all systems on _your_ ship
but some people will need to know this information. Military or
government jump couriers should have the data on every planet because
they don't know where they will be ordered to go.

I played in a campaign where we travelled from Capitol/Core to
Regina/Spinward Marches the hard way going directly across the Great
Rift using a J6 + J3 patrol cuiser variant designed (under TNE & MT) to
be capable of making a jump 6 & then a Jump 3 using fuel from the
collapsable fuel tank.  This ship would sometimes jump to deep space,
pump fuel into the main tank & jump again.  This ship was following a
predetermined route set at Capitol & could have just been using
planetary data acquired there but what if they had misjumped.  It seems
to me that this ship needed to know the positions of every planet (not
just mainworlds because it used wilderness gas giant refueling once or
twice). 

I think that every Imperial ship has the ability to store planetary
orbital data for every other Imperial planet in Milleau 1100.

This data would probably be taken from Second Survey data and would
probably say something like this orbit has a diameter of 150 million km,
an inclination to the ecliptic of 1 degree, an eccentricity of 0.1 %,
list semi minor & semi major axis data, give planetary mass & length of
its year.  It would also include a fixed position for the planet at a
given time (say 001 of whatever year the survey ended) and you could use
this data to calculate the position of the planet at the time you were
hoping  to come out of jump.  It would also include the data on the
relative motion of the system as a whole (relative to the galaxy) so you
could include this in.

If each planets data could be cut down to 200 bits or so & each system
has less than 50 objects, each system would take less than 10k of space.
If the Imperial data base included data on 15,000 worlds or so (every
member and most non member worlds within a sector of its borders) the
total database would only take up 150 megs of data storage space, which
is nothing to the Imperium.  Whenever you accessed this navigational
data the ships transponder would record what you were looking at.

This information could also be printed on paper, using microprint, as a
set of 2 2000 page books, each page containing data on 4 star systems in
about 2 point type, (total weight 10 kg in a box w/ a magnifying glass)
very similar to the compact edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.

If the Imperium provides this information for all its systems except the
red zones they could discourage your going to red zones.  You would have
to survey the system ahead of time, steal the data, jump in to a semi
random location (leaving the Interdiction fleet more time to track you
down & vaporize/ arrest you), or be in a Scout or military vessel which
would have the restricted Red Zone data on its computer (This idea would
open up a lot of cool adventures for Scout ships - the smugglers hire
you to go to the Red Zone because their merchant ships do not have the
chart data needed to make it easy to get there.)  The data access system
would be secretly hooked up to the ships transponder.  That way when you
went in for annual maintenance your own transponder would rat you out to
the Imperium & they could arrest you fro going to the Red Zone (if they
were smart they would wait a bit so you could not figure out how you had
been discovered).

Naturally a black market in the military versions of the paper verrsion
of the data would develop, leading to more interesting adventure
ideas...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:44:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games catalog.

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Now the bad news:
> 
> "Erratta from the previous book will be fixed..."
>  ^^^^^^^
> 
> They misspelled it.

Heheh.  Brings to mind the Sierra OnLine advertisement from 'way back.  
It was an advertisement for a spelling checker, but the advertisement 
itself had spelling errors in it. :)

SNAFU, Murphy's Law, Finagle's Law, whatever...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:43:45 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

In the Imperium, three things are going to fuel trade with lo-tech worlds in the 
Imperium ... art, novelties and Imperial pensions.

Art is obvious ... if a world gets a reputation for producing stuff liked by rich 
markets, you are going to get a veritable industry spring up - people making, buying and 
selling fakes, forgeries, schlock and the occasional piece that a collector is going to 
pay tens of millions for ... the locals know this, and will probably be able to demand 
large amounts of hard currency in exchange for their priceless cultural heritage.

As a source of plot hooks, the art trade is great for all those Scout/Couriers ... you 
can put a lot of paintings or statutary in a 4t cargo hold, and it could be a good idea 
to find an art expert to verify you are buying the real thing ... or to buy the buyer's 
expert so they are convinced they are buying the real stuff heh heh heh.

Novelties are a bit different, but the fact that useless everyday stuff on a lo-tech 
world could be considered a chic objet d'art on a rich world ... for example, TL2 swords 
sell for about $300 here in Australia to collectors and medievalists. Ummm, D Starport, 
TL8, thats, what ICr100 ? Source world will have them for about umm ICr2. They weigh 
about 4 kilos each ... call it 200 per ton. One TL2 speculative cargo with a proven 
market, cost call it ICr1000 per ton, selling at a TL8 world for ICr10 000 per ton after 
bulk discounts (and believe me, you show to Pennsic with *good* US$100 swords, you will 
be able to sell them by the ton). Handmade persian rugs are another good example of a 
TL2-3 industrial product selling well to a TL8 market. Food products as well ... I am 
sure there is a market for home-made bread, and if you like "geniune hand-made 
peasant rye bread with extra grit, made by genuine peasants" and are prepared to pay Cr6 
for a 1 kilo loaf, that will pay for shipping it 3 parsecs and a mindblowing tenth of a 
credit for the peasant making it (it's double-baked rye bread ... it will keep for 3 
weeks). Heck, decorative bricks for herb gardens ... the possibilities are endless.

Finally, Imperial pensions. Lo-tech poor worlds are going to export a lot of people to 
the Imperial Navy and Marines. Many of them are going to enlist for the long term, 
beause Imperial Pensions are paid in Imperial credits, and Imperial Credits are worth a 
lot on a low-tech world. Thus the lo-tech world gets a source of hard currency to buy 
imported goods, creating a market for imports.

OK ... enough on Imperial Economics ... unless people say they are interested enough to 
hear my views on quantifying Imperial trade :)


Ian Whitchurch

PS This list appears to be full of perverts and SCA people ... just like home really :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:42:14 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re:  Navigation (was Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties)

At 03:01 am 04/20/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> Furthermore, I don't need to store all known solar systems
>> on my trusty smuggl// detached scout. Just the ones nearby. And I can
>> always get updates at each starport along the way.
>	
>You may not need to know planet positions for all systems on _your_ ship
>but some people will need to know this information. Military or
>government jump couriers should have the data on every planet because
>they don't know where they will be ordered to go.

	In general, this is true. But there's absolutely no need for a military
ship operating in the Spinward Marches to have detailed ephemerides for
Core Sector. First of all, they're probably likely to be out of date, and
hence worth no more than a 6-element ephemeride, by the time you get there.
And there'll be plenty of places to stop on the way to get updated
information.

>pump fuel into the main tank & jump again.  This ship was following a
>predetermined route set at Capitol & could have just been using
>planetary data acquired there but what if they had misjumped.  It seems
>to me that this ship needed to know the positions of every planet (not
>just mainworlds because it used wilderness gas giant refueling once or
>twice). 

	I'd assume even the "summary" ephemerides contain all the major bodies in
a system. But like I said, ephemerides are time-sensitive. The older they
get, the less accurate they are. The question is, how accurate do they need
to be? A simple 6-element orbit doesn't account for the myriad of
perturbation effects in a real system; it's based on the two-body
approximation. And even more accurate methods can't model ALL the
perturbations in a system.

	Besides, most people, even military ships, don't NEED detailed (but
quickly stale) information on every single system in the Imperium. Jump
couriers probably work on a fixed route, and a military deployment across
the Imperium would be such a major event that you'd either get updates
along the way, or assuming a full-scale war, you'd use scouts anyway.

	Most ships need at the MOST detailed information on every system within 36
parsecs of their intended destinations (in case of misjump).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:40:14 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Gun damage

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:49:48 -0700, you wrote:

> At 06:55 AM 4/19/97 GMT, you wrote:
> 
> >Just out of curiousity, what type of ballistic weapon would be
> >required to "blow your right limb off"?  How much kinetic energy are
> >we talking about?  I really need to know the answer to this one :)
> 
> The IMI Desert Eagle .50 has a muzzle energy of about 1800J.  This will take
> off an arm if the bone is hit directly.

Hmmm.  I respect the power of this weapon, but I just figured it might
take a bit more to utterly sever a limb.  I guess it depends on the
musculature of the target as well.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:59:36 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 

>
I add my background to this;

I have a BS in History, minor in Computer Science (wonder how that
combination could get rolled in the character gen process); spent the last
22 years in Data Processing (pays better than history), mostly with IBM
based systems, micro, mini & mainframe. Currently Senior Systems Programmer
on a VSE/ESA system for a marketing research firm. With the last few
iterations of IBM's mainframe operating systems adding multiple Virtual,
Data and Hiper (yes, that is the correct spelling) spaces; I feel right at
home with Traveller's jump space.

The interest in history that initially selected by first college major is
still with me, Ancient & Medieval mostly, which explains my fascination with
C & S as will as A D & D. I also enjoy Asimov, Heilein & Clarke, the 30s,
40s and 50s type of SF, which explains my inclination to Traveller.

Who's next?

Garry



 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 01:18:40 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:43:55 -0400, you wrote:

> I have a suggestion. Rather than the short descriptions we have been
> providing, why don't we prepare short Traveller-style bios (ala Capt.
> Alexander Jamison). The IG tests for determing UPPs were published here a
> few months ago. We could all become NPCs in each other's games. Who knows,
> someone might be interested in collecting the bios into a NPC booklet. I
> think we're at least as interesting as some I've seen.  Look for my bio at
> my "Misjump" web site in a few weeks.

Already working on it!  I might have missed one or two submitted
"bios", but I've managed to keep all the others.  After a week or so I
plan on compiling them into a single list and reposting it.  This will
then give people a chance to restructure their submitted info, while
at the same time possibly providing UPPs, skills, etc.  Perhaps I'll
call it "Citizens of TML" :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 01:18:41 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:09:03 PST, you wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > A parsec away is *nothing*, considering that any starship has a
> > minimum of jump-1.  Any free trader can stop by, and according to the
> > Traveller universe, there are A LOT of them.
> 
> But *why* would he stop by? What's in it for him? And it takes a *lot*
> of work to do anything beyond the "sell trinkets to the natives" stage.

I only speculated that they *could* drop by.  How much they have to
offer for export would determine *why* someone might drop by.

TL1 systems can still be highly productive agricultural producers.
They might also possess vast reservoirs of timber, minerals,
Lanthanum, etc.  TL1 worlds can be classified as "rich" under the
right circumstances.

> >> Take the US and Mexico, for instance--two countries, vastly different 
> >> tech levels, and they sit right next to each other on the same 
> >> contintent.
> >
> > I wouldn't say that US and Mexico are "vastly" different in regards to
> > tech levels (2, maybe 3 points away at best).  Just because they don't
> > launch their own satellites or have a nuclear capability doesn't make
> > them low tech.  They simply have better places to spend their limited
> > resources.  They are definitely a poorer country, and this does
> > contribute in some part to the country's perceived "tech level".
> 
> Outside the cities, most of Mexico is about TL1, if not TL0. Little
> changed since the conquest.

If you are saying that the rural areas of Mexico are TL1 or TL0
because they cannot *produce* technology above this, the same can be
said for many areas of most other countries (see Craig's post
regarding the TL of Beverly Hills).

If you are saying so based on the fact that few pieces of high tech
exist in these areas, this is more a basis of whether or not the
citizens can *afford* such technology.

Based on my original posting, I figured Mexico's overall TL to be
around 5 or 6.  Now, after reading Craig and Volker's posts, I feel
comfortable raising it to TL7.  Just because a country (or world)
doesn't produce high-tech fighter planes, doesn't mean that it
*can't*.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:37:09 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

Eris wrote:

[snippage]
>
>And one more thing...let's get HOWARD HUGHES involved!  ;-> Maybe HH went
>the "high and fast" route rather than the "big and slow" Spruce Goose
>route.  Sure he *eventually* nutted out, but in the late 40's early 50's he
>still could have been an innovative force.  Maybe leading a private
>industry effort to produce anti-podal delivery systems for cargo and
>passengers.


	Brilliant!  Of course!  And let's not forget those funky backpack
rockets from the Disney film...

Leonard: Noted your points re: Einstein.  FIY, Adams and Mueller are old
PC's from my group, doing the odd cameo in the timeline (as were Zhukov,
Dunhill, White, Carlton, and Frost).  Believe me, kidnapping scientists for
the Nazis is exactly the sort of mischief they would have gotten up to had
they met as per the timeline... it was more of an in-group joke than
anything else.

	Thanks for the input, all.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:36:43 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Asteroid Mining and stuff

I am thinking about starting a campaign with the long-term aim of setting up an 
asteroid-mining colony. Anybody got any suggestions about costs of setting up such a 
colony, and the way the Imperium could or would support such a venture ?

One of the things I am thinking of is that the Imperial Navy would like such colonies to 
exist (apart from anything else, uninhabited systems are havens for pirates et al), but 
is unable to officially do anything to assist. On the other hand, INI slush funds exist, 
and if they have a planetary navy (the fact that it is one lightly armed Far Trader need 
not be mentioned in the official reports), then the IN could institute an officer 
training exchange program ... like maybe we lend them a chap with Instructuion-3, Vacc 
Suit-2 and Pilot-2.

A related but important issue is the cost of constructing a starport ... anybody got any 
rules of thumb on the cost of building class E, D and C starports (I dont wanna think 
about the cost of class B and A starports).

Also, as far as trade goes, the cost of fuel is ridiculous ... given fuel refining units 
are cheap, and hydrogen is free and available in most systems, fuel should cost about 
Cr200 per ton, tops. And why the hell do staterooms cost Cr2000 a fortnight for 
maintainence when you pay a gunner Cr1000 a month? OK, the maintainence cost of 0.1% of 
ship cost is ridiculous as well (IMO should be 1% per year, going up by 1% per ten years 
of age of the ship).  Has anyone burned down the costs half of the economics system and 
re-designed it so it works ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:19:00 -0400
From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

- --------------6CC74B4F783A589DDB0DEE5B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

sturm

Mused wrote:

> > So if you don't like it, just gloss over them and move on instead
> of trying
> > to rain on others' parade.
> What, people who don't like a thread are to shut up?



- --------------6CC74B4F783A589DDB0DEE5B
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><BODY>
If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?&nbsp; or how about alcoholism
in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
<BR>
<BR>or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating one,
or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet there's
alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)
<BR>
<BR>sturm
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Mused wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><I>&gt; So if you don't like it, just gloss over them
and move on instead of trying</I>
<BR><I>&gt; to rain on others' parade.</I>
<BR>What, people who don't like a thread are to shut up?
</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;

</BODY>
</HTML>

- --------------6CC74B4F783A589DDB0DEE5B--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:35:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Names

Volkmar G said:

>- -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
>How you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german" 
>names will always remain a riddle to me.

I don't know about anyone else, but I also fall back on the standard
reference on the topic: 

_Germanic-Sounding Names for RPGs,_ by Gustav Heimlich, Freiherr von
Handschuheim, B&D publishing, GMBH.

Loren Wiseman

     GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:09:05 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Who we are

Well, since we seem to be providing capsule biographies:

I served 4 years in the Canadian Forces (as a Finance Clerk), have a BA in 
Anthropology, have spent far too much time as a security guard and now work as an 
admin assistant at Nelvana (distributor and maker of fine animation, Tintin, Babar and 
Care Bears to name a few)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:12:06 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:55:58 -0600 (MDT), you wrote:
> 
> > > hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> > > Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->
> >
> > Wow, through and through with the arm traumatically amputated.  He
> > goes quickly into shock, and bleeds to death without fast medical
> > attention.  Tying off his arm will at least keep him from bleeding
> > to death, but that is a nasty wound.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, what type of ballistic weapon would be
> required to "blow your right limb off"?  How much kinetic energy are
> we talking about?  I really need to know the answer to this one :)

Typical. Realistic combat usually means far too deadly. Combat is not as dangerous as 
some games would make it out to be. Face it, if combat was as deadly as the "realistic" 
systems portrayed it, then casualty rates in war would be in the area of 75%, rather than 
the 5% it is now

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:51:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

 
As a long-time lurker, all I can say is that pretty much _anything_ that might be encountered in a Traveller campaign is of potential interest.
 
(This is a roundabout way of saying that if you don't find something of interest, then DON'T READ IT).
 
That having been said, some general conclusions:
 
*  If you have a world with as many societies and cultures as Earth, then the multiplicy of worlds in the Imperium are likely to be even more diverse than just Terra.  Even given the "diaspora" character of cheap FTL, etc.
 
*  The "what is the Imperial stance on homosexuality?" is a meaningless noise.  Frankly, given the range of societies, and the fact that _communication_ goes only as fast as travel, the "Imperial culture" is likely to be similar to that of the old British Empire, doubled and redoubled...what goes on in the colonies is different than back in England, and what people think in the Midlands is different than what they think in the East End, or in the City.
 
*  From a purely _economic_ perspective, worrying about the behavior of one group of consenting adults on a moral basis is sand in the gears of the economy.  The question really ought to be, "How can I still make a profit?"
 
*  Lastly, what humans do with each other is likely to be considered FAR less interesting/worth worrying about after we encounter aliens.  As one friend of mine put it, "Hey, I can easily see the relationship between science fiction and alternate sexuality.  Once you imagine having sex with an alien, having sex with someone of your own gender seems pretty normal and tame, in comparison!"
 
Just another subsector heard from....
 
Victor Raymond

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:21:13 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

sturm wrote:
> If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
> the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?=A0 or how about
> alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
>=20
> or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
> one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
> there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

Lets see...many behavious once seen as unacceptable in society are now to=
uted as=20
"alternative"
Why not a long thread on the status of child molesting as an acceptable a=
lternate=20
behaviour, or bestiality?
You'll have to excuse my sarcasm, but I believe that maybe, just maybe, h=
umaniti will=20
learn to stop thinking with and about its genitalia and where it longs to=
 put them and=20
rather why everyone is largely unhappy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:19:26 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1219

At 05:51 19/04/97 PST, Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
>I just thought of a couple of interesting side effects of the "pusher" drive.
>
>1. you'll sometimes want to change which body you are pushing on.
>2. The last ditch defense against boarding is to push on the ship
>   that's trying to close. But if you use two ship's boats, they can't
>   push on both at once. And in any case, if they have more Gs than
>   you, they can "reverse push" (pull) on you harder than you can push
>   them away. :-)
>
That means the Repulser has been invented how many TL's early? And with near
infinite range, to boot.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:12:59 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: A TML Call to Duty

It's been a while since the members of this list banded together for 
the common good of the game.  The last time was several months ago 
when I uncovered the problems with the T4 task system.  I sent out a 
call for help, and people responded.

New members to this list wouldn't believe what occurred.  We worked 
together with one common goal:  fix the task system.  People were 
posting probability tables.  Game mechanics and ideas were bandied 
about.  Joe Walsh dubbed me task system coordinator.  And the result 
was KBv1.1, Glenn Grant's D66 system, Eris Reddoch's aptitude 
system, and a few others.

We all worked together, and it was nothing like the recent KBv2.0 vs 
T4v2 debate.  It was a time that many of us think fondly of.  We did 
something that actually improved the game, and we made our point 
clear enough that Marc Miller agreed and changed the existing T4 task 
system for the revised edition of Traveller.

Well, it's time to band together again.  TMLers, take heed!  Respond 
to your call to duty!



The subject this time is the BSCS--the Basic Ship Combat System that 
starts on page 117 of Book 1.  The goal this time is not to fix it, 
but to diagnose it.

I've been shopping for a ship combat system for my game, and, always 
wanting to look at the official rules first, I started with the BSCS. 
 
Many have said that it is broken, but few have said why.  Although 
I've played Traveller for over a decade, I haven't played starship 
combat in depth.  To my "almost virgin" eyes, this thing was hard to 
read and follow.

With the upcoming release of T4-revised pending, I worry that the 
BSCS will go unchanged.  It needs to be fixed.  If I'm having trouble 
following it, then I can only imagine what a new Traveller player 
will think.

This brings me to the goal of this exercise:

                  Diagnose the BSCS



Let's tell IG what is wrong with BSCS and let them know what we would 
like to see in its place.  I'm not talking about coming up with our 
own system, and I'm not talking about misdirected negativity.

What I am talking about is constructive criticism of the BSCS.  That 
means, we state what is wrong with it AND we state what it would take 
to make us happy.

So, as a TML member, what would you like to see as the BSCS?

I'm sending this post to Marc Miller and Imperium Games.  You may 
want to send your thoughts there as well.

Let's make this revised edition perfect.

Long Live Traveller!

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1229
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1230



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  A TML Call to Duty
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Who We Are
"The Fifth Element"
Re: Who we are
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Newbie hello.
Metlay's Aslan paper

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:12:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re:  A TML Call to Duty

I'll lead off this diagnosis of the BSCS, and first off, I'd like to 
state that IG should consider basing BSCS on another game system.



First Thoughts:

It's no secret that the BSCS is a reguritation of High Guard revised 
for T4.  HG is more attuned to large fleet actions and capitol ships. 
 I think the BSCS should focus on player ships.  Since most player 
ships are small, 200-400 ton merchant vessels, I think that the T4 
basic system should be based on the original starship combat system 
(from Little Black Book-2, Starter Traveller, and the Traveller Book) 
or Mayday.

Actually, both of these systems are pretty close, except that 
the LLB-2 and TB systems used unweildy distance measuring 
rules--a mm on the game board represents 100 km, and vector changes 
required protractors to figure the degree of the turn.

GDW got it right when they used the same system in Starter Traveller 
sans the awkward measurment rules.  All of a sudden, a hex (or a 
range band, as it was called in the rules) was equal to 10,000 km.  
Although the scale was somewhat different, GDW incorporated the 
game-friendly movement rules from Mayday with the starship combat 
rules from LLB-2 and TB.

It was a good combination, and this is the type of system I'd like to 
see in the T4-revised book.



Diagnosing the Current BSCS:

If the decision is made to stay with the current combat system in T4, 
there are still some changes I'd like to see.  I'll take these 
systematically in the order they appear in the book.



Page 105:  Software.
I've got to admit, I was ecstatic to see the inclusion of the old 
computer rules from LLB-2, ST, and TB in T4.  I really like the 
tactical and strategic decisions that a player has to make with 
regard to his software.  Which programs is he going to need in future 
turns?  How will his decisions now help or hinder him in his next 
moves?  Should he use Evade, Predict, or Gunner?

The problem with the computer rules in the existing T4 rule book is 
that it is unclear how they are used.  There is no mention of them in 
the BSCS chapter, but, rather, you see a table in the Spacecraft 
chapter.

We don't know how they are used in combat (especially since this 
rule was taken from the LLB-2, ST, and TB combat systems while the 
BSCS is based on HG--a system which does not use this type of 
computer rules).  There is no description in the text describing what 
each program does, and they have deleted some of the programs that 
used to be available in LLB-2 et. al.

Further, there is no mention of how many programs can be included in 
a ship's computer (this used to be called space) nor is their mention 
of how many of these programs can be used at one time--based on the 
ship's computer (this used to be called capacity).

Given the current presentation of these rules in Book 1, it is easy 
for a player to assume that he can have as many of these programs 
running at one time as he wishes, and that doesn't seem right to 
me.

On page 90, it states that computer models purchases include a basic 
software package of commonly used programs, but no where in the text 
does it describe what these common programs are.  I think that a list 
should be included stateing what programs are common for different 
types of ships, or this should ge included in the description part of 
the various ship examples given in Book 1 (starting on page 100).

I'd like to see the computer rules revised (and maybe updated for the 
90's) for T4.  I really like the fact that they are included, but, as 
is, they are close to unusable.



Page 117:  BSCS Introduction section.
It states in the introduction that a map is required using range 
bands, squares, or hexes, but then later in the section, it states 
that the ranges used in starship combat do not measure actual 
distances.  

I understand this from HG, but that part about squares and hexes 
throws me off.  I can see using a range band chart to keep track of 
what arbitrary ranges the different space craft involved in the fight 
are at, but I can't see how a hex grid could be used for this.  Hex 
maps are used to plot representative distances--not the arbitrary 
distances used in BSCS.

For clarity, I suggest removing the reference to squares and hexs, 
and just leave in the range band part.

A paragraph should be added explaining this "conceptual" distance 
system.  Most game players expect to see a hex map and 
counters--where the hexes correspond to actual distances--when they 
play a space combat game.  This conceptual range system helps put the 
focus on role playing, but it is hard for players to comprehend at 
first.  

I suggest an example of play included in the BSCS chapter where it is 
noted that the GM will keep track of ranges using a range band chart, 
but there is no actual need for the players to actually view this.  
They focus on what's going on with their ship and can ask questions 
like, "Where's that Vargr corsair now?", and the GM can respond 
(looking at his range band chart), "It just moved into close range, 
and it's firing!"

There's another thing I'd like to see changed with the BSCS.  The 
conceptual ranges used are nice, but they should be included as an 
optional rule.  I'd also like to see a range system used that uses 
exact ranges.  This way, players can plot out movement on a hex board 
with couters in the traditional manner.  This is the way I like to 
play starship fights, and I'm sure that many others feel that way 
too.

It shouldn't be too hard to included both types of systems in BSCS.  
Leave in the conceptual system for those who like it, but also add 
exact ranges for the others.  I'd base BSCS combat on the exact range 
system, but throw in the conceptual range system as an alternative 
way to play.

One last note on ranges.  If it is decided that an exact range system 
be used, some thought should be given to the Master Range table 
included on the T4 GM Screen.  It seems that most recent Traveller 
space combat systems are based on hexes representing distance of 
30,000 km (and that's completely fine with me--I can see the logic in 
basing the distance of a hex on a portion of the distance of a light 
second), but maybe the ranges used on the Master Range table should 
be considered for consistency (actually, I guess the 30,000 km 
starship ranges should be added to the Master Range table).



Page 117:  General Notes on BSCS.
One thing that I'd like to see is more character involvement in the 
combat system.  As in Brilliant Lances, I like the task throws based 
on a character's skills.  Take the sensor task throws for example.  
It would be nice if a character's sensor skill impacted the outcome 
of this task.



Page 117:  Step 2:  Initiative.
I like a certain randomness in initiative throws.  It would be nice 
to see a 1 D6 throw as part of determinig initiaive.

Also, I don't think that Leadership is a good skill pick to modify 
initiative.  Ship's Tactics should be added to the skill list, and if 
not, regular Tactics skill should be used instead of Leadership.



Page 117:  Step 4:  Break Off.
There's some energy point information left over from HG.  The 
reference to energy points should either be taken out or explained 
somewhere in the chapter.



Page 117:  Step 5:  Sensor Action.
This paragraph is confusing and should be written more clearly.  I do 
like the inclusion of sensors in the BSCS, and I like the easy to 
follow to understand rules for sensor scans and locks.

There should be some explanation about passive scans and active 
scans, and questions like "Are the passive scanners considered to be 
running all the time?" should be answered.  When the players are 
trotting along in space and an enemy ship approaches at extreme 
range, are the players automatically notified by a passive scan?  Do 
they have to make a skill roll?  How is a GM supposed to handle this 
if there is a chance that the character's aren't aware of the 
threatening ship?



Page 117:  Additional Thoughts.
Finally, there are other issues that I'd like to see addressed in the 
BSCS.  For instance, how does gravity effect movement (I know that 
this is really not an issue with the conceptual range system)?

Additionally, there should be a section in the BSCS chapter that 
discusses decompression, atmospheric braking, abandoning ship, damage 
control, and repair parts.

If the present system is used, some large starships should be 
included in the example spacecraft section starting on page 100 to 
let players see some capital ship designs that use meson guns, 
meson screens, and black globes.  The BSCS 
rules cover these, but there are no ready made ships to use in 
combat.

How about boarding actions?  There should be a paragraph or two that 
discusses how a ship can be boarded and what an attacking ships needs 
to do to set troops off on another.

If the BSCS is to cover large fights between capitol ships, then 
Fleet tactics should be added to the skill list and included in the 
rules.

What about surprise?  Isn't it possible to surprise another ship?  
This should be discussed.  Likewise, there should be some discussion 
about where a ship can hide in space--behind a planet, in the EM 
poles, and other areas that can make  a ship blind to sensors.

If the computer rules are to be used (as I discussed above), then a 
computer reprogramming phase should be included in the combat steps.  
How much time does it take to load one of those things anyway?

Crew casualties--there should be some notes on this when a specific 
area of the ship containing crew members is hit.

Finally, as with all of the systems in T4, an eye towards keeping the 
BSCS compatible with any larger, more detailed rules system should be 
considered.  When a complete, detailed T4 starship combat system 
comes out (and, I can't wait for this), the ships used in BSCS should 
be compatible with the more detailed system.

Long Live Traveller!

Kenneth.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:43:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

At 02:43 20/04/97 -0700, Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>In the Imperium, three things are going to fuel trade with lo-tech worlds
in the 
>Imperium ... art, novelties and Imperial pensions.

The never ending Dumarest books by E.C. Tubb give a very good picture of the
sort of goods that a Free Trader would trade in. I rather liked the
atmosphere, too - very Traveller-esque.

>Ian Whitchurch
>
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:43:15 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Who We Are

OK,
 I've half a B.Sc. major: Genetics, minor: Physics (gave up on it in 1990)
and half a B.A. in Classics and History (mainly medieval, which I'm still
working at, off and on).

 The rest of my working life has been spent in various menial jobs, and
being unemployed. I also spent six years in the New Zealand Army's
Territorial Forces (Weekend Warriors), four as a Grunt, and two in Military
Intelligence. For those of you who consider the latter an oxymoron, here's
an alternative definition (given to me by an Int. School instructor):

Militery Intelligence
   ...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based on
vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed activities
pursued by persons of diverse motivation, doubful reliability, and
questionable mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

My hobbies are RPG's (of course) mainly TNE and C&S III, and not T4 (I don't
like the rules, but the background seems ok, barring fusion+), and reading
lots of Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I've been doing the reading for about 18 years
now, and Roleplaying for 13. My first Sci-fi RPG was Space Opera, and I
didn't have any Traveller stuff until about 1990.
 
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 01:03:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: "The Fifth Element"

     Someone a couple days back mentioned having seen the theatrical
trailer for the movie "The Fifth Element," and commented on the
interesting visuals in it.  I just saw this for the first time yesterday
(before "Chasing Amy," which is a very good movie IF you think you'd be
interested in it-- definitely not for the prudish) and agree that it has a
very interesting Far Future (possibly even somewhat Chris Foss-ish?) look
to it-- lots of brightly colored grav vehicles swooping around huge
cityscapes and such; much more busy and flashy than "Blade Runner," from
the looks of it.  The preview didn't give a whole lot of info as to the
actual plot of the movie, and I certainly can't judge whether or not it
will actually be any good, but if the preview's anything to go by, it will
at least be interesting to look at.

Later,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:47:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Who we are

>> Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

Well, okay. Not that I have any _technical_ skills applicable to Traveller...

I've got a BA in Creative Writing from Concordia University, here in
Montreal. I'm a science fiction writer, editor, reviewer and illustrator.
My first and only academic publication credit is "Transcendence Through
Detournement in William Gibson's Neuromancer", Science Fiction Studies #50
(March 1990).

Some of my short fiction: "Memetic Drift", Interzone magazine #34,March
1990 - North American reprint in _Northern Stars_ (Tor 1995); "Suburban
Industrial", Interzone magazine #41, Nov. 1990; and "Storm Surge",
Interzone magazine #46, April 1991. (A few years ago I sold the German
translation rights to "Storm Surge" to Heine Verlag, for an anthology of
world sf edited by Wolfgang Jeschke, but I have yet to hear if it was
published. I don't suppose any of our list members in Germany would have
seen it over there?)

I used to co-edit and contribute to a small-press comics 'zine called _Mind
Theatre_, and I published three issues of _Edge Detector_, a speculative
fiction magazine (featuring work by Paul DiFilippo, Rudy Rucker, Peter
Lamborn Wilson, Hakim Bey and Charles Platt).

David Hartwell and I co-edited _Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian
Science Fiction_ (Tor hardcover, 1995), which included work by William
Gibson, Charles de Lint, Spider Robinson, Robert J. Sawyer, Donald
Kingsbury, Judith Merril, Robert Charles Wilson, and many others. (American
TMLers are encouraged to look for it in their local remainder shops
[belated plug]) We are currently at work on a new volume of Canadian SF and
Fantasy, tentatively titled _Northern Suns_.

I've reviewed sf books for the Montreal Gazette, SF Eye, The New York
Review of Science Fiction, and other periodicals. My infamous "Memetic
Lexicon" article on memes and memetic concepts can be found on the "Church
of Virus" Website:
<http://maxwell.lucifer.com/virus/hb_index.html>. It originally appeared in
bOING bOING and VIRUS 23 magazines.

My interests include futurology, drawing, digital graphic design, Memetics,
alternative comics, alternative music, and Traveller. Most recently I've
begun to turn my hand to Web page design; check out my (unspectacular but
useful) site for Nebula Books, a great place to look for (and mail-order)
sf, fantasy, mystery, film books, comic collections and other cool stuff,
at:
<http://www.cam.org/~nebula>. We're currently working on turning this site
into a searchable CGI database of recent books.

Jeez, I think that's enough plugs for one post, don't you?

Glenn Grant
[yet another member of the TML Invasion Force From The Planet
Glenn/Corridor (2634)]


- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:59:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:19:00 -0400
> From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
>
> If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
> the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
> alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

Substance abuse, attitudes concerning it, and consequences of it are all
*highly* intriguing topics in investigating any society; they often
provide a window into larger questions of personal responsibility,
standards of conduct, and views on moral and ethical issues.  For example,
one of the most interesting aspects of Aztec society is how they
structured and regulated consumption of pulque, their prefered alcoholic
beverage.  You can figure out a *lot* about the society just from these
rules and customs. 

Similarly, teen pregnancy is only a problem in our society because it
tends to produce babies who don't have adequate emotional or financial
support; there are all kinds of "moral" arguments made about this, but
that's the root reason that early/extramarital sex are so discouraged in
our society.  In a highly clan-oriented society, teen pregnancy might well
be highly prized; the baby will be *everyone*'s child, so support issues
don't come up, and young mothers tend to have healthier kids.  So again,
attitudes on teen pregnancy are a window into the larger nature of
society. 

> or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
> one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
> there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

What society does with the aged and infirm is yet another indicator of
what the society is like as a whole.  Put them in rest homes, or strand
them on ice floes?  Treat them as revered elders supported by an extended
family, village, or tribe, or confine them as embarrassing, irrelevant old
fogies?  Any of these speaks volumes about how the society works.

PC behavior is a goldmine of information!  What *can't* one say in polite
society in the Imperium?  What is taboo?  What will gain you a reputation
as a daring rake, and what slight change from that will flip you into
utter ostracism?  I can't imagine a better way to see what matters to a
society, and what it's neurotic about.  Consider that fucking, eating, and
shitting are all normal, natural, universal human activities, but only one
of these is considered a fit cocktail-party topic.  Imagine a society
where you could cheerfully announce "I had the *best* sex this afternoon!"
at a high-society party, and be met with smiles...but saying "I had a
*great* sandwich for lunch today!" would earn you frosty, uncomfortable
glares, and actually *eating* that sandwich in public could get you
arrested.

Sturm, I think you were trying to be sarcastic, but you ended up
emphasizing the point we're trying to make -- that gender/sex roles, and
attitudes on them, are just as important to the Traveller universe as
battledress point-defense options.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:33:50 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:43:45 -0700
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
> Subject: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

[snip of a good post]

> Ian Whitchurch
> 
> PS This list appears to be full of perverts and SCA people

That's Mr. Pervert to you, thank you. :)

> ... just like home really :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:02:39 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:19:00 -0400
> From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
> Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

I believe sturm may be being a bit sarcastic here but I am not.  I do
not wish to offend you sturm.  Sturm if you do not like the post, just
skip it.  I get the list in digest form.  When I see a post I do not
want to read (and there are not very many of these) I simply hit the
Page Down button on a my computer 2 or 3 times (total elapsed time about
0.5 second).

> If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
> the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate? 

Yes it would be appropriate but unless it was part of a longer post
about population demographics and such would not get much response.

> or how about
> alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

Yes this would be a _great_ topic for a thread.  When you consider the
number of Traveller encounters, adventures, fights, and such you really
need to wonder just how high the alchoholism rate among PC's is.  I have
seen about 10 very heavy drinking charecters, 20 or 30 more who seem to
go to bars a lot, 20 or 30 more who only go to bars with their
shipmates, only 2 or 3 that do not drink, and only _1_ actual
alchoholic.

Of course if I got into half of what the average party of PC's does I'd
probably be tempted to drink heavily myself...

I would like to see more encounters that start something like

You are all in a bookstore
You are all in a laundrymat
You are all in a 100 person long que at customs
You are all in a resturant
You are all in a clothing store

But I'll probably see 10 that start "You are all in a bar"
> 
> or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
> one, 

It could be an interesting post.  Several years ago DGP did some great
articles on the care of wounds, illness, and the like but (except for
anagathics) we have really not seen much on geriatric care in the Third
Imperium.  You could even start a campaign that would require all the
PC's to be at least 75 years old, although you would have to change the
term limits rule.

>or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
> there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

I don't think the Third Imperium is politically correct but if you can
post an interesting post, please do so.
 
> sturm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:35:32 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

>Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:19:00 -0400
>From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
>Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
>the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?

In one word, Yes

> or how about
>alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

Another goodie

>or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
>one,

True, it could be facinating

> or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
>there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

I never really have understood what this term "Politically Correct" means,
it seems to get thrown about alot nowadays, but its never defined. It strikes
me rather like the terms "Pinko and Facist" sort of an all purpose put down.

The important point here (to me at least) is that Traveller is a role playing
game; and as such just how the society I'm roleplaying in functions, is both
facinating and vitally important. The minutae of how the society I'm playing
in works is far more important (to me at least) than the minutae of how a fusion
gun or a jump drive works. I keep my interest in technical minutae for
wargames, for me roleplaying is exactly that, roleplaying.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 14:13 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

In-Reply-To: <199704171154.EAA01136@mom.hooked.net>

<< I'm hoping that they give AD&D the shot in the arm it needs >>

Preferably from an FGMP-15...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 14:13 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970417105645.10083A-100000@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca>

<< > names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> 
This is based on nothing but pure conjecture, but perhaps the more 
beaurucratic and culturally stagnant didn't even name their star ships. >>

Yeah, I like this idea. Works for me.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 14:13 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970417105645.10083A-100000@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca>

<< > names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> 
This is based on nothing but pure conjecture, but perhaps the more 
beaurucratic and culturally stagnant didn't even name their star ships. >>

Yeah, I like this idea. Works for me.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:10:56 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

>If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
>the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
>alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
>
>or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating

Uh, with no sarcasm or hyperbole at all, YEAH, *I'd* find any one of these
topics a hell of a lot more interesting than aircraft carriers vs.
battleships or just how incredibly macho battledress is, for example.

>one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
>there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

Besides *yourself*, there are others who get fretful about the
"appropriateness" of these topics being discussed with regard to the
Imperium, you mean?

>Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

"One last time"?  Heh heh -- who's sounding like the cop here?  And where
have you been when the on-topicality of this list needed protection from
those threads about participatns' biographical sketches, the early history
of RPGs and Space: 1889, eh?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:52:48 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Re: Newbie hello.

>Hooooray! Finally there's PROOF that not only old farts like the rest=20
>of us buy T4! Gentloser, welcome!

Thanks for the warm welcome.

>Be sure to mail us about your progress. It'll be nice to see a=20
>newbie's perspective on the beloved T-background :-)

Well I like the idea of having an Imperium like structure binding the
planets together. I'll have the nobility linked closely with the major
corporation, as will the whole Imperial power structure. I don't think i'll
be using any of the usual T4 alien races, I prefer to create my own. The
aliens that I will introduce as the game progresses are a mix and match from
SF books and films. Definately there will be Minbari, Vorlon [as background
colour], Narn from B5 series. Also I will have The Culture from the I.Banks
novels out on the fringes, who knows what Special Circumstances will think
of the Imperium. Has anyone got any ideas on rules for creating new aliens,
the section in the T4 book 1 does not go into much detail. Would racial
maximums on stats be the way to go?=20

As you can see i'm taking elements from two different sources, and mixing
them together. The players will start off in the Imperium Core, and slowly
move out towards the Rim Worlds. I'll introduce the aliens slowly, maybe
allowing them as PC's at a future point. The Vorlon and Culture will
definately be there as background colour, no way am I letting these as PC's
[though a human as part of the Cultures SC branch could be fun]. It's not
that I don't like the Traveller alien races, but these others just work
better for me, and add a familiar reference for the players.

>V.A.G.      =20

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:05:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Keith Thoms <kthoms@nooster.nosc.mil>
Subject: Metlay's Aslan paper

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Shade <jwatts@catt.com> wrote to the TML:

> Ok.... after weeks of making reference to this material I finally went 
> and dug it up ( Just a note to the wise: When your girlfriend breaks up 
> and moves out on you and she volunteers to clean your apt before she 
> goes.... SAY NO! ).  It was written by Mark Metlay and was made 
> available on this mailing list on Mar 10, 1993. ( Does that get me any 
> longevity awards? ) I made a hard copy of it and thats all I have 
> available. Its an eight page essay on Vargr and Aslan sexual practices, 
> anatomy, and so forth.
> 
[...]
> John

I checked my PBEM archives for it, but it's lost.  I've cc:'d Metlay
if he'd care to comment on whether he still has it and it's release.
In my opinion it crosses the line for taste in a public forum and
I would not want it posted to the TML, but it is deep background
material if your character delves into this direction.

Keith Thoms
wind@nooster.nosc.mil

Noone coming out of our educational system today has ever witnessed 
Man explore another planet -- just valet parking and cargo delivery.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1230
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1231



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

missing jump drive table
Fleet operations
Which starship combat system is your favorite?
Re: "The Fifth Element"
Re: Those pesky Skill Levels
Re: Which starship combat system is your favorite?
Re: Which starship combat system is your favorite?
Re: Gays in the Imperium, Give me a break.
Re:Metlay's paper
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1219
Weapon stats
Re: Metlay's Aslan paper
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: "The Fifth Element"
Re: Weapon stats
Jump Theory / Stutterjump Drive (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:20:41 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: missing jump drive table

I've seen this on the errata, but my browser seems to scramble it up a bit.
Could some kind soul email this in table for to me.=20

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:08:42 -0700
From: Kenji Houston <hokido@primenet.com>
Subject: Fleet operations

> >I've always taken it that a group of ships leaving from the same point (say
> >within 0.1 LS) at the same time, with identical vectors would have the same
> >Jump-space transit time, and would come out in pretty much the same
> >formation they went in.
> 
> I had always assumed the exact opposite; that a fleet that jumps at the
> same time arrives separately at the destination spread out over several
> hours.

Another variation. Choose between a varible time and fixed place. Or a
fixed time and varible place.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:20:19 -0700
From: Kenji Houston <hokido@primenet.com>
Subject: Which starship combat system is your favorite?

I'm currently working on my own. It will use Battle Rider as a basis,
and will have incermentle damage. 

Weapon batteries will be rated differently. Each weapon is rated for its
BL damage rate and multiplied by the # of weapons in the battery. Then
the total damage is convert to BR rate. Rate of fire will affect
accuracy not damage.
	I.E A weapon battery of 10 laser barb's: 40BL*10wpns=400BL 	converts to
a BR rating of 9. 

Armour is rated per BR

Structural Integrity (SI)is the base length * g rating and then
converted to BR rating.
	I.E. a battle cruiser 65m(base length) with 4g structure: 	
65m*4g=261mg converts to a SI rating of 7

If a weapon rolls and get the exact number then its rating is halved if
8 or less or 4 is subtracted. All other hit do full damage. The damage
rating is the # hits that can damage the ship.

There is 3 types of hits. Surface hits, interier hits and critical hits.
Armour affects the # of hits(except meson gun hits). Structural
Integrity (SI)affects the # of hits that will be criticle hits.
	I.E. PA 13 hits BC armour 5 SI 7: 13dmg-5armr= 8 hits. 
8hits-7SI=1Crit. So of 13 damage points 5 were asorbed by the armour, 	7
were surface hits not crits do to the  structural integrity of the 	ship
and 1 criticle hit.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:47:36 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: "The Fifth Element"

  I just saw this for the first time yesterday
> (before "Chasing Amy," which is a very good movie IF you think you'd be
> interested in it-- definitely not for the prudish) and agree that it has a
> very interesting Far Future (possibly even somewhat Chris Foss-ish?) look
> to it-- lots of brightly colored grav vehicles swooping around huge
> cityscapes and such; much more busy and flashy than "Blade Runner," from
> the looks of it. 

It looked a lot like Judge Dredd to me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:18:52 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Those pesky Skill Levels

>> >...why keep skill levels at all when
>> >attribute + xps is your target number? Because the char gen system >has
>> skills? Then convert each skill to 3 xps and be done with it.
>
>> Skill levels are used as DMs in several tasks (Like JoAT and Brawling). I
>> prefer writing the skill levels down over having to recalculate them
>> every time you use them.
>
>Calculate and write down the ones you need (like JoAT and Brawling), and
>ignore the rest.  I can see a reason for a reduced JoAT effect, not sure I
>see one for Brawling.  Just how many other skills use Attribute +
>Skill-points/3,d rather than Attribute + Skill-points?

The main use for skill levels is as DMs for other tasks, not to reduce the
effect of your own tasks. JoAT is kind of a special case; it applies at a
reduced level to a lot of tasks instead of significantly to just one task.
Using the skill level instead of the experience (or "skill points") is just
a simple way to get that effect without having to divide attributes on the
fly, which the T4 task system required.

Think of the skill experience as the 'active' skill; it's worth a lot of
points but you have to roll to see if it works or not. The skill level is
'passive'; it's fewer points but they always work. For example, in Brawling
you add your Brawling experience to your target number to hit and subtract
your opponents Brawling skill. You get more points but you have to roll to
hit. Your opponent subtracts fewer points but doesn't have to roll to
defend.

The example I used was Brawling, but it applies to other skills as well.
You add Recon skill level to the suprise roll, add Tactics skill levels to
the Tactics pool, add Carousing skill level to the high passengers table,
Admin to the middle passengers table, Broker skill level to the Actual
Value table, and several others. In all these cases you do not make a task
roll to see if you succeed or not, you just add the relevant skill.

I have used the same principle for other skills. For example, one time my
players were trying to hack into a computer storing some scout's personal
logs. The scout had password-protected the data personally so I had to take
her skill level into account. Now, the scout wasn't actually there to
thwart their attempt, so it wasn't really an opposed task, and I didn't
want to have to generate the character just to make a single task roll. So
I just arbitrarily decided the scout had Computer-2 and gave them a -2 DM.
Again, the skill level acts as a DM without requiring a task roll. This
applies to every skill, so you're just better off recording the skill level
for every skill and not coming up with special rules for which skills they
apply to.

In fact I suggest this should be a standard rule for KBv2.0. Skill
experience counts in tasks where you have to roll to find if you succeed or
not. Skill levels count in DMs where the skill always applies without a
task roll. Don't try to mix the two, use one or the other. For example,
don't require a task roll to see if a character can apply a skill DM or
not.

>ps. Ken and Richard, please consider this *good-natured* banter, not
>mean-spirited attacks!

I never considered it anything else Eris. In fact I welcome your feedback;
didn't Plato say "the unexamined game is not worth playing" or something?
Besides, after looking at the credits for the Role-Playing Space Combat
system, I couldn't have a bad opinion of you.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:22:22 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Which starship combat system is your favorite?

On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:20:19 -0700, you wrote:

> I'm currently working on my own. It will use Battle Rider as a basis,
> and will have incermentle damage. 
> 
> Weapon batteries will be rated differently. Each weapon is rated for its
> BL damage rate and multiplied by the # of weapons in the battery. Then
> the total damage is convert to BR rate. Rate of fire will affect
> accuracy not damage.

Just a quick note... ROF *will* affect damage when the range
diminishes enough to make 90%+ hits guaranteed.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:56:36 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship combat system is your favorite?

 
> BL damage rate and multiplied by the # of weapons in the battery. Then
> the total damage is convert to BR rate. Rate of fire will affect
> accuracy not damage.
>I.E A weapon battery of 10 laser barb's: 40BL*10wpns=400BL 	converts to
> a BR rating of 9. 

The problem is that for armor piercing, this assumes that all
weapons in a battery hit exactly the same spot on the hull.  This is
the trouble with most of the simplifications used to get "fleet
level" rules, IMO.

> There is 3 types of hits. Surface hits, interier hits and critical hits.

I have this as well in my system...

> Armour affects the # of hits(except meson gun hits). Structural
> Integrity (SI)affects the # of hits that will be criticle hits.
> 	I.E. PA 13 hits BC armour 5 SI 7: 13dmg-5armr= 8 hits. 
>8hits-7SI=1Crit. So of 13 damage points 5 were asorbed by the armour, 	7
> were surface hits not crits do to the  structural integrity of the 	ship
> and 1 criticle hit.

Interesting, but again, this overly favors multiple small weapons
linked together.  1000 machine guns won't get a critical hit on the
New Jersey, for example.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:10:56 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium, Give me a break.

Sturm,
	Actually, those are EXACTLY the kinds of topics I would be 
interested in.

Sorry to dissapoint you by not being upset.
John
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:14:36 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re:Metlay's paper

I agree that its not entirely appropriate for this forum.  As I recall, 
it was " advertised " in the TML and sent out privately.

John
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:26:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

	Howdy!

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, sturm wrote:

> If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
> the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?

	Yes.  Actually, this would be an interesting topic, albeit one
that would be difficult due to cross-cultural variation.  How would
"alien" diets, biospheres, 
and genetic engineering affect menarche?  What are Imperium-standard laws
concerning "age of consent", age appropriate to marriage, and children
born out of wedlock (or is it more of a local ethnolegal concern)?

>...or how about alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

	Good thread.  What about controlled substances?  Are there
addictive substances that the Imperium recognizes or does NOT recognize?
I once ran a scenario revolving around the smuggling of a substance (not
unlike Khat on Earth) that was recognized as a controlled substance by one
polity and not another.

> or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
> one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
> there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)

	Geriatric care?  You bet.  Are there Euthanasia laws in place?
Are families expected to take care of their own elderly?  At what age are
you *considered* elderly with higher life expectancies?  What kind of
bureaucratic problems would you have when chronological age means
something entirely different from biological age.

	Politically Correct behaviour?  That may require a lot of assumed
knowledge concerning the minutiae of Imperium culture.  It would be
interesting to posit a kind of cultural backlash against
traditional/possible outdated Imperium mores and norms.

	I am *not* being sarcastic.  The topics that you suggest are
interesting, although some may involve a depth of discussion that may not
interest everybody.  The material that you raise is what separates
"mediocre" or cardboard worlds from more well-rounded science
fiction.  It is what drew a lot of us to Traveller in the first place.


	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:36:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Mused wrote:

> Lets see...many behavious once seen as unacceptable in society are now touted as 
> "alternative"

	True.  Many "unacceptable" behaviours are beliefs/practices that
other culture groups now hold or have held for thousands of years.  I
assume that by "society" you are referring to late-20th Century North
America.

> Why not a long thread on the status of child molesting as an acceptable alternate 
> behaviour, or bestiality?

	There are few "universal" cultural taboos, child molesting and
incest being two of them.  I think one could make a good argument for them
being universally repugnant in the future.


> You'll have to excuse my sarcasm, but I believe that maybe, just maybe, humaniti will 
> learn to stop thinking with and about its genitalia and where it longs to put them and 
> rather why everyone is largely unhappy

	The discussion of sexuality is important in understanding certain
aspects of a culture.  That's why anthropologists are interested in it
cross-culturally.

	If you find yourself uncomfortable with a topic, or simply
uninterested in it, then skip the thread.  Skip the sarcasm while you are
at it.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:50:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1219

Quoth Rupert Boleyn:
> At 05:51 19/04/97 PST, Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
> >I just thought of a couple of interesting side effects of the "pusher" drive.
> >
> >1. you'll sometimes want to change which body you are pushing on.
> >2. The last ditch defense against boarding is to push on the ship
> >   that's trying to close. But if you use two ship's boats, they can't
> >   push on both at once. And in any case, if they have more Gs than
> >   you, they can "reverse push" (pull) on you harder than you can push
> >   them away. :-)
> >
> That means the Repulser has been invented how many TL's early? And with near
> infinite range, to boot.

Aha -- that's why our original gdw-beta discussion hinged on establishing
a minimum "gravitational gradient" to allow "pushing", which later got
simplified back into the "x-many diameters" figure.  Calculate out what
the relative gravitational effects are from, say, the Sun when you're at
Jupiter's distance, and that far-trader a few space-combat hexes away.
You'll find a big difference.  We deliberately made one possible, the
other not -- it just isn't explained very well in the current text.
(I have on the back-burner a "how thruster plates work" article for my
web site.  Anyone else been working on something similar?)

Admittedly, the "gravity-well-pushing" thruster plates _do_ give a hint
of the direction repulsor technology might come from -- but isn't that a
good thing?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:54:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Weapon stats

Are Damage and Pentration the same in T4 as the were in MT?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:11:14 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Metlay's Aslan paper

Keith Thoms wrote:

>
>I checked my PBEM archives for it, but it's lost.  I've cc:'d Metlay
>if he'd care to comment on whether he still has it and it's release.
>In my opinion it crosses the line for taste in a public forum and
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I would not want it posted to the TML, but it is deep background
>material if your character delves into this direction.


	Line?  What line?  RE-post!  RE-post!  RE-post!


	Seriously...  how many 80-year-old grandmothers are there on the
TML anyhow :)?


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:07:20 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> writes:
>The never ending Dumarest books by E.C. Tubb give a very good picture of the
>sort of goods that a Free Trader would trade in. I rather liked the
>atmosphere, too - very Traveller-esque.

  Actually it's more correct to state that Traveller is very Tubb-esque. :-)

The Dumarest of Terra series have been around longer.  From them, Marc Miller
picked up, among other things, slow drug, fast drug, high passage, and low
passage.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get 
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo 
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:48:38 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

>> Why not a long thread on the status of child molesting as an acceptable 
alternate
>> behaviour, or bestiality?
>
>	There are few "universal" cultural taboos, child molesting and
>incest being two of them.  I think one could make a good argument for them
>being universally repugnant in the future.

	Actually, I think you can find several groups, either today or in history, 
that have or are in favour of child molesting or incest. Take for example, 
NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love Association, or some such 
noncense). And while I wouldn't be surprised to find modern organizations 
in favour of de-criminalizing incest, my best example is the terrible 
inbreeding in the royal houses of Europe, or in ancient Egypt.

***WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER! RIGHT-WING OPINIONG TO FOLLOW***

	That would be why I, personally, do not see any reason whatsoever that 
makes homosexuality any more acceptable than the two practices you 
mentioned.

IMHO, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

p.s. and I still think that the whole gays in the Imperium thread is, or at 
least was, perfectly valid and legit. Or at least was, until it degenerated 
into "should we be discussing this topic on the list". And I sincerily 
apologize for adding to the noise of the TML.

	Oh, and I've been writing up a short essay entitled Sexual Practices in 
the Two Thousand Worlds. While its not graphic and I think is being 
tastefully written, I'm unsure if I should post it to the list or not.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 16:21:37 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: "The Fifth Element"

On 04/20/97 at 10:47 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> > very interesting Far Future (possibly even somewhat Chris Foss-ish?) look
> > to it-- lots of brightly colored grav vehicles swooping around huge
> > cityscapes and such; much more busy and flashy than "Blade Runner," from
> > the looks of it. 

> It looked a lot like Judge Dredd to me.

I was thinking more "Hudson Hawk 2150", or maybe "Die Hard 3000!"  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:56:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon stats

At 02:54 pm 04/20/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Are Damage and Pentration the same in T4 as the were in MT?

	Nope.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 17:18:33 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Jump Theory / Stutterjump Drive (Long)

Here's a companion piece to my article on Jumpdrives.

The FTL application of the "Jumpdrive" grew out of research into improving
the performance of its cousin, the Indeterminate Position Field Generator,
more commonly called the "Stutterjump Drive." Today the STL Stutter Drive
and FTL Jump Drive share many components, and operate in a similar fashion.

Indeterminate Positional Field Theory / Jump Theory

An alteration the probability of vacuum fluctuations within in a region of
space makes the positional location and discrete existence of any
matter/energy within that region indeterminate and unobservable from
outside the affected field.  The collapse of the field altering the ZPF
probabilities precipitates the observation of the existence and location of
such mass/energy. 

Within such a field a directed pulse of anti-gravitons forms a wave of
increased positional probability along the pulse's wavefront. This
increases the probability that the indeterminate matter will coalesce along
the pulse's path with the highest probability at the wavefront of the
pulse.

While the matter within the field is indeterminate it can not be said to
exist in this universe.  Theoretically it may exist in some "hyperspace"
but in truth we simply don't know where it actually is..or if it *is* at
all.  All we can really say is that its existence and location is
undetermined.

The existence of indeterminate positional fields are theorized to exist in
nature within wormholes and near Hawking singularities. No naturally
occurring wormholes have been found, but research at  Atlantian Station
near Tau Ceta-19A7, the only black hole in known space, has tended to
confirm the existence of a permanent IP field within the Swarthchild Limit.

Artificially created IP fields can be generated with relative ease in
vacuum, but are maintainable for only about 1 millionth of a second.
Research into extending the duration of IP fields by injecting hydrogen gas
into the expanding field lead to the creation of
gravity lenses and what we believe is a small artifical wormhole. Years of
work and the unfortunate loss of many lives eventually lead to the
invention of the Jumpdrive.  Research continues in an effort to both better
understand the IP field's nature and to improve both Stutterjump and
Jumpdrive performance.
                                  
Stutterdrive components

    1.  Jump Field Projector Coil - Mounted on the bow of a ship, the
        coil projects a field that surrounds the ship from bow to
        stern.
            
    2.  Field Collector Ring - Mounting around the stern of a ship,
        the ring pinches closed the field projected by the bow coil.

    3.  Gravitational Pulse Generator - Mounted at the center of the
        coil, the pulse generator fires a pulse of anti-gravitons
        directly forward.  This forms a "forward probability wave"
        on which the ship will ride.
        
    4.  Lanthium Jump Grid - Embedded in the hull of the ship, the
        lanthium grid maintains a bubble of coherent space around
        and within the ship protecting it from dissipation during the
        jump period.  Because the ship will be in "jumpspace" for an
        extremely short period, the Lanthium Grid can run on low
        power.
        
Stutterdrive Process

    1.  The Lanthium grid is energized to low power.  The grid will
        remain on while the Stutterdrive is operational.  The grid
        requires approximately 5 seconds to come up to the low power
        needed for Stutterdrive operation.  At this low power, the
        characteristic glowing pattern on the surface of the hull
        armor does not appear.

    2.  Energy is fed to one of the bow coils from the main power plant
        causing an IP, or jump, field to form around the ship.  The
        field requires < 10e-12 seconds to form, and must be closed
        at the ship's stern by the ring collector or it will
        immediately collapse.  The field's duration is limited to
        less than 10e-6 seconds.  The field strength is controlled
        by the pilot determining the distance in front of the ship
        the field will extend, and hence the distance the ship will
        jump.  Depending on Tech Level and the power applied, this
        distance can reach 50 meters.
        
    3.  The ship's location within the field, outside the lanthium
        grid, becomes indeterminate with equal probability at all
        points, and from an outside viewer's perspective vanishes.
        If the grid fails the structure of the ship, it's components
        and crew will begin to take damage, but the short duration
        of the jump field in stutterdrive mode means that the drive
        could be used for a short period without the grid in
        operation before the damage becomes severe.
        
    4.  As the coil comes to full power, the gravitational pulse
        generator at it's center automatically fires directly
        forward.  This creates a "forward probability wave" within
        the jump field. 
        
    5.  The jump field collapses and the ship reappears with the tip
        of the ship's bow at the forward limit of the previous jump
        field.  The effect viewed using high-speed cameras is the
        ship disappears from point A and reappears at point B a few
        meters forward.
        
    6.  The coil and generator systems reset and prepare to fire.
        This cycle can be repeated up to 40,000 times per second,
        depending on the Tech Level of the system.  The most
        efficient operational mode, it has been discovered, is to
        cycle the system at close to it's maximum rate.  Slower
        cycles increase wear from expansion/contraction within the
        coil and reduces MTBF.
        
    7.  Ships generally mount multiple coil/generator systems on the
        ship's bow and fire them in series, effectively raising the
        number of "jumps" to hundreds of thousands per second.
        Decades of research and experiment have determined that the
        optimum configuration is 5 coil/generator systems located on
        the bow with one directly forward and each of the other four
        equally placed around the bow's circumference.  Using more
        coil/generator systems sets up interferance patterns within
        the coils that both decreases their MTBF and lowers their
        cycle rate.
            
            
Stutterdrive Limitations

  Coils may be energized creating jump fields anywhere, but there
  are a number of limitations.

    1.  Within an atmosphere a jump field will attempt to surround
        the entire volume of the atmosphere, causing it to collapse
        immediately with no effect other than the loss of the energy
        pumped into the coil as heat.  This has a decidedly bad
        effect on the jump coil.  This also means that ships need a
        different means of lifting from and landing on planets that
        have an atmosphere.
        
    2.  Jump fields may not be formed within or overlapping other
        jump fields.  Small ships and missiles may not be launched
        under stutterdrive power from inside a ship.  Ships that
        move within a few hundred meters of each other overlap
        fields and until they move apart may not form fields.
        
    3.  Because a Stutterdrive's pulse generator fires straight
        ahead, and this is required to avoid uncontrollable
        vibrations that will tear the ship apart, it follows it's
        bow in a straight line.  Changing direction requires changing
        the orientation of the bow with attitude jets, grav-control
        units or gyroscopes.
        
    4.  The shape of the IP field constrains the shape that stutter
        driven craft may take.  The field forms as an ellipsoidal
        with an extended fore and a rounded aft.  Craft become
        increasingly inefficent as their keel to beam (length to
        width) ratio falls below 5 to 1.  Below 2 to 1 the field is
        too broad and can't be closed by the stern ring and the
        stutter and jump drives become non-operational.  Above 12 to
        1 and the field needs to be too narrow to allow it to extend
        in front of the ship, and the stutter and jump drives again
        become non-operational.  Most ships are built with K2B
        ratios between 3 to 1 and 10 to 1.  As a general rule, short
        ratioed ships have increased turning benefits, but are
        slower, and longer ratioed ships are faster, but turn more
        slowly.
        
  The Stutterdrive primary limitation is that it does not change a
  ship's actual momentum or velocity.  This means a ship must also
  mount a secondary drive capable of providing deltaV changes of up
  to 100kps when engaged in inter-system travel, and 50kps for
  intra-system travel.  Grav-drives, HePlar, and Fusion drives are
  the most common choices.
  
Stutterdrive Advantages

    1.  Stutterdrives allow ships to travel at pseudo velocities of
        500kps at lower TL's, up to 9,000kps at extremely high TL's.
        
    2.  Stutterdrives cycle up to, and down from full pseudo-speed in
        under 30 seconds.
        
    3.  Stutterdrive driven ships don't require Inertial
        Compensation because they don't change the actual momentum
        of the ship.  IComp is generally still provided to offset
        turning and momentum changes from the secondary drive.
        
    4.  Stutterdrives are generally less expensive to build,
        install, and maintain than are available alternatives
        offering equivilant performance.
        
    5.  Ships with installed Stutterdrives either are, or can be
        made Jump capable very easily.  Ships that are Jump capable
        are by their nature also Stutter-capable.
        
    6.  An unexpected side-benefit of the Stutterdrive are the
        effects of the Lanthium Grid on explosive decompression.
        The Grid field creates an effect analogous to surface
        tension tending to hold the ship's atmosphere inside.  Holed
        ships lose their air much more slowly as it seems to leak
        away, rather than gushing out.  This fortunate benefit has
        resulted in ships running their grids at low power at all
        times, even when not maneuvering, and in the installation of
        redundantly overlapping grid units to insure continued
        coverage even when areas of the hull have been damaged or
        destroyed.
        

Double whew!  This article is even longer than the first!  Again, I know
this won't be to everyone's taste, but it is the way I'm already handling
STL...although this is the most comprehensive explaination of this
technology I've written.  If anyone has questions, or sees holes please let
me know.

In the future I'll have a go at gravity control (and Grav Drives), inertial
compensation, and power production and storage. 

Eris        
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1231
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1232



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperium Games catalog.
Re: Imperium Games catalog.
Re: Who We Are
Re:Metlay's paper
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Re: Who we are
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Fellow Claremonters
RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re:Metlay's paper
Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.
on topic or not?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1222
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Who We Are
Re: Which starship combat system is your favorite?
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Good taste?
Off-topic: Cleon's Death
Re: Who we are

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:13:03 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games catalog.

At 10:49 19/04/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>Got a nice surprise in today s-mail.. a catalog from IG.  It lists products
>through December, and has a nice letter from Courtney.
>
>Included with the catalog is a coupon for getting the discount on the T4
>deluxe edition, which is a nice touch for those of us who are
>credit-impaired and have to send money orders for everything.
>
>Now the bad news:
>
>"Erratta from the previous book will be fixed..."
> ^^^^^^^
>
>They misspelled it.

Did you notice the dates on some of these items also?  Interesting.  They should
have modified that also.  The GDW (erratta???) curse strikes again.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:13:03 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games catalog.

At 10:49 19/04/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>Got a nice surprise in today s-mail.. a catalog from IG.  It lists products
>through December, and has a nice letter from Courtney.
>
>Included with the catalog is a coupon for getting the discount on the T4
>deluxe edition, which is a nice touch for those of us who are
>credit-impaired and have to send money orders for everything.
>
>Now the bad news:
>
>"Erratta from the previous book will be fixed..."
> ^^^^^^^
>
>They misspelled it.

Did you notice the dates on some of these items also?  Interesting.  They should
have modified that also.  The GDW (erratta???) curse strikes again.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:06:19 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

A TML bio with no college!

I'm a 30yo professional driver (I work for a door-to-door shuttle service),
and have played Traveller since 1977 when Craig bought the game.

I served with the US Army as a light weapons Infantryman, MOS 11B1V76Y if
anyone out there can read these things, and qualified as a sniper.  I've
always been interested in the military in general, and modern military
history in particular, so I've spent much of my life teaching myself history.

I decided not to attend college simply because I don't do well in
traditional education.  I have however continued to learn through self research.

In 1995 I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Disease.. After two surgeries and 4
months of chemotherapy I'm in remission, and plan on staying there.  The
major effect the cancer seems to have had on me is that I don't take life
quite as seriously as I used too.

When I'm not working or playing RPGs, I'm active in local fandom, work for
gay/lesbian/bi rights, and volunteer as a clinic escort for Planned Parenthood.

See my web page for even more about me..  URL in .sig

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:10:01 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re:Metlay's paper

Pack Rat that I am, I have a copy...in MS Word format, ASCII easily
available.  Will trade for a set of Metlay's "Bandit" stories. :-)


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
What did the devil say when the first email spammer showed up in hell?
"There goes the neighborhood!" -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/ 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:28:02 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

Victor Raymond wrote:

[snip]

>*  The "what is the Imperial stance on homosexuality?" is a meaningless
>noise.  Frankly, given the range of societies, and the fact that
>_communication_ goes only as fast as travel, the "Imperial culture" is
>likely to be similar to that of the old British Empire, doubled and
>redoubled...what goes on in the colonies is different than back in England,
>and what people think in the Midlands is different than what they think in
>the East End, or in the City.

That's basically the model I've always had in mind, as well -- but the old
British Empire did have a ruling class and a colonial
administrative/military class which had particular cultural, social, and
political values that are important to understand if you're interested in
the history of the empire... and what I think I and others have been trying
to get at is what the 'culture' of the equivalent segment of the Third
Imperium is like.

>*  Lastly, what humans do with each other is likely to be considered FAR
>less interesting/worth worrying about after we encounter aliens.  As one

That's one possibility, maybe the obvious one -- on the other hand, being
exposed to "genuinely alien" aliens could just as well cause the collective
attention of the human society involved to turn back in on itself, and
encourage an increased awareness of the importance of various sorts of
divisions and barriers within it.  Looking at contact between previously
isolated cultures in real-world history, you don't necessarily find a
leveling of intra-group rivalry -- often quite the opposite.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:11:45 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

At 02:33 PM 4/20/97 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:

>> PS This list appears to be full of perverts and SCA people
>
>That's Mr. Pervert to you, thank you. :)

Shouldn't that be Lord Pervert? :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:28:52 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: Who we are

Wow, I'm beginning to feel like a youngster here, but anyway...

I'm 21, having just finished my degree at uni (Bachelor of Computing) and
managing to get my first job a month and a half later (anyone who knows
anything about Australian employment etc at the moment should be
impressed!) I work for the Australian Antarctic Division, involved in
computer support. The area where I work is maninly concerned with satellite
images of Antarctica, which can be fairly interesting at times.

I was first introduced to Traveller about two years ago, when I borrowed a
whole lot of role playing gear off a guy I knew to look at. He had the MT
system, and while it seemed really interesting, I didn't have anyone who
was interested in playing, so I pretty much forgot about it. Later on I saw
TNE in the local RPG shop, and bought it (mainly because I wanted to see
how the civil war had panned out), but again didn't do anything with it.
Finally at the start of this year I heard about T4, and curious about it I
bought the special IG had (where you get books 1-4 + JTAS#25 at a reduced
price). I managed to convince several of my friends that this was a cool
system to play, and now run a small group every Sunday night. So, I now GM
Traveller without ever having played a game myself...

Next!

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:50:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

If we eliminate every topic that at least one member of the list is
uninterested in, then we won't have a list.  I, for example, have zero interest
in shipbuilding.  If you get to nuke the "gays" topic, I get to kill THUDD and
everything associated with it.  (But I would never suggest that, as I can just
skim past it.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:40:56 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Fellow Claremonters

>Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:29:59 -0700
>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>

>At 12:13 AM 4/19/97 -0700, Trent Smith wrote:
>>     I'm currently 22 years old, and am a English major at Pomona College
>>(a tiny but well-respected Liberal Arts school located about 6 blocks from
>>Harvey Mudd College in Claremont, California),
>
>Hmmm.  I went to Pitzer for a year, back in 1979...
>
>Any other Claremont folks here, by chance?

Yep - HMC class of '89 and Claremont Graduate class of '90

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:21:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

	Howdy!

On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:

> >	There are few "universal" cultural taboos, child molesting and
> >incest being two of them.  I think one could make a good argument for them
> >being universally repugnant in the future.
> 
> 	Actually, I think you can find several groups, either today or in history, 
> that have or are in favour of child molesting or incest. Take for example, 
> NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love Association, or some such 
> noncense). And while I wouldn't be surprised to find modern organizations 
> in favour of de-criminalizing incest, my best example is the terrible 
> inbreeding in the royal houses of Europe, or in ancient Egypt.

	The Man-Boy Love Association is widely controversial (among
Lesbian-Gay groups, as well as psychologists).  It is hardly a reflection
of the larger social system around it.  There also aren't that many
memebers.  Child molestation is a universal taboo among cultures, although
individuals and small groups may advocate its practice. Such individuals
and groups have been deemed outside of normative and accebtable behaviour
crossculturally.

	The royal houses of Europe practiced close cousin marriages, not
sibling-sibling crosses.  We do see in history evidence of sanctioned
incest (rare), but almost solely among royalty.  It was politically and
religiously sanctioned in Egypt because the Pharoahs were dieties.  The
rest of Egypt was forbidden such practices.

  
> > ***WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER! RIGHT-WING OPINIONG TO FOLLOW***
> 
> 	That would be why I, personally, do not see any reason whatsoever that 
> makes homosexuality any more acceptable than the two practices you 
> mentioned.
> 
> IMHO, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO

	No problem <g>.  There are many societies that do practice such
behaviour, and many societies in the past that have viewed such behaviour
within acceptable norms.  I am talking about cultures and societies, not
individuals or small groups <g>.  Homosexuality was never a universal
taboo, and only seems to be a rigid taboo in a few societies.  Human
behaviour encompasses quite a spectrum of phenomena.  I would be veiewed
as barbaric and inhumane in some cultures because I ate pork and I
preferred to bury my dead....


> p.s. and I still think that the whole gays in the Imperium thread is, or at 
> least was, perfectly valid and legit. Or at least was, until it degenerated 
> into "should we be discussing this topic on the list". And I sincerily 
> apologize for adding to the noise of the TML.

	You didn't add noise, just your comments on taboos. :)

> 	Oh, and I've been writing up a short essay entitled Sexual Practices in 
> the Two Thousand Worlds. While its not graphic and I think is being 
> tastefully written, I'm unsure if I should post it to the list or not.

	Cool.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re:Metlay's paper

Shade <jwatts@catt.com> wrote:

If anyone has a copy of this papaer I'd love to see it.

Thanks-

- -John jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:36:03 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: WIZARDS OF THE COAST TO ACQUIRE TSR INC.

Yo Dave,
>But can WoTC be trusted with *any* RPG's these days. ...
>but then again maybe they will just strip the assets and sell
>a range of new CCG's.
  Think like a business executive: the _only_ value in buying TSR
is the trademark. You can damn well bet that they spent more
money then they are willing to write off buying it. The biggest thing
they are going to want to do is grow the trademark. WotC's other
RPGs were just small, we'll try this, type things that could easily
be written off against card game sales.
  WotC main claim was they didn't have the _staff_ to deal with
other lines. When the aquired TSR they also aquired the staff.
Now they just have to motivate them. :-)

>>No new gamers are buying the product.
>Well that is not exactly true. I have never had any of the previous
>Traveller products, but T4 grabbed my attention enough to buy it.
  You aren't a new gamer. A quick browse of your web-site shows that
you have spend significant hobby-time on RPGs. You are, thus, an
experienced gamer who has bought enough of their primary interest
to risk spending a bit of capital to look at something else.
  I mean new, off the street. Some kid who has just seen Star Wars and
heard about role-playing (most likely D&D) and is thinking about getting
into it. Are they going to buy Traveller? I doubt it.
  Blocker one: they have probably never heard of it. IG has spent zippo
on publicity. Can anyone point me to _any_ paid advertisement that they
have run? Without publicity, you only have word of mouth. New gamers
don't get word-of-mouth.
  Blocker two: in the rare store that actually stocks Traveller, the backs
of the books tell you absolutely _nothing_ about the product. Eye-catching
artwork is well and good, but if you are going to have to force people to
flip through the book to work out what they hell it is about then there
goes
80% of your potential customers.
  Blocker three: Star Wars. _The_ biggest merchandising engine ever to
hit the streets (yes, bigger than "Tickle-me Elmo :-) is breaking over the
shores of American and even washing up out here in International. If a
kid off the street is going to hear of anything SF it is going to be that.
They
are _much_ more likely to buy that RPG than Traveller. Just like most
new sales will _always_ go to D&D, not, say, Runequest.

>There is no reason why T4 cannot become a real alternative to D&D
>as the first rpg kids buy, and also appeal to older/mature rpg'ers.
  There is no reason it _can't_. It is just, the way they are going, and
they seem rather unlikely (insufficiently capitalised) to change, they
_aren't_.
  Show me a business plan to grow a fringe game into something bigger
than D&D. We can compare notes...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:04:02 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: on topic or not?

MB

Just to cheer up your Monday morning in case you were a victim of road rage
this weekend.

(If only Mailbag was so 'busy'!)


>Q:  How many  mailing list subscribers does it take
>     to change a light bulb?
>
>A:  1,023:
>         1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail
>           list that the light bulb has been changed
>        14 to share similar experiences of changing light
>           bulbs and how the light bulb could have been
>           changed differently.
>        42 will point out that light bulbs are manufactured by
>           the parent companies of pharmaceutical manufacturers.
>         7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
>        27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about
>           changing light bulbs.
>        53 to flame the spell checkers
>       156 to write to the list administrator complaining about
>           the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness
>           to this mail list.
>        41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
>       101 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and
>           to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
>       203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar,
>           alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing
>           light bulbs be stopped.
>       111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we
>           are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts
>           **are** relevant to this mail list.
>       306 to debate which method of changing light
>           bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs,
>           what brand of light bulbs work best for this
>           technique, and what brands are faulty.
>        27 to post URLs where one can see examples of
>           different light bulbs
>        14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and
>           to post corrected URLs.
>         3 to post about links they found from the URLs that
>           are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs
>           relevant to this list.
>        33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote
>           them including all headers and footers, and then
>           add "Me Too."
>        12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing
>           because they cannot handle the light bulb
>           controversy.
>        19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
>         4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
>         1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
>        47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion
>           was meant for, leave it here.
>       101 will vote for alt.lite.bulb.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:17:02 -0700
From: Rob Lowry <robl@aa.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1222

Traveller-digest wrote:

> I also have thousands of hours of exposure to PBS, the Knowledge
> Network, the Learning Channel, the Discovery Channel, and Bill Nye.  I
> believe this brings me up to Dave's EDU rating :)
> 
> Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?
> 

Sure..

Lets see.. no fancy degress, just a 2 yr. certificate from a tech
school. Worked for a printer manufacture for 7 years as a Test Tech,
testing the printers (Firmware, hardware and software compatibility)
Recently relocated and joined the "Evil Empire" (Microsoft) as a
tester.. Been playing CT since early  80's..
as well as a host of other RPG's.. much to the scorn of my wife ;)

OK, who is next?

Rob Lowry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:54:38 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Remember, the old wooden ships often had metal plate on their
> bottoms, and along their waterlines.  You might have metal armor bolted on
> selected parts of your ships.

The metal plate (it was copper) was introduced by the British to stop
the hull rotting because of it being eaten by barnicles. The speed and
toughness increase was a suprise bonus.

The problem with putting metal on a spaceship would be procedural. VDS,
QSDS and SSDS do not support layered armour. It could be done, but it
would be a kludge.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:23:03 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

Since we are in a bio mood :

I was born in Sydney Australia, went to both a government and catholic
school. Attempted to go to Collage (as it was at that time) to become an
accountant while working full time. Gave it up as a bad joke.

I have worked mainly in computer opertaions, but have worked in
hospitals (from everything as a cleaner to mourge assistant and
wardsman) and bars.

I am a avid gamer of many systems, mainly RPG but dabble in minitures.
My favourate games are Traveller, GURPS, Ars Magica, Mage : The
Ascension amd miniture games from GZG (GW for people with brains).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:49:45 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Which starship combat system is your favorite?

Kenji Houston wrote:
> 
> I'm currently working on my own. It will use Battle Rider as a basis,
> and will have incermentle damage.

I actually like Full Thrust from Ground Zero Games. It is a simple game,
easy to modify, and very clean in its actions.(And the minitures are
realy cute , very much in the vein of Bab 5 , including a 3 foot space
station!!!!)

Starfire is my second choice, but I pefer the simlicity of FT. 

The only Traveller game worth the effort was Mayday, ant that only
worked at small ship level.

Darryl

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:26:31 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 

> That's basically the model I've always had in mind, as well -- but the old
> British Empire did have a ruling class and a colonial
> administrative/military class which had particular cultural, social, and
> political values that are important to understand if you're interested in
> the history of the empire... and what I think I and others have been trying
> to get at is what the 'culture' of the equivalent segment of the Third
> Imperium is like.

That would have been the Rule of Man more than the Third Impirium. The
M:0 setting would proberbly be rampant palnetary rights at the moment,
as there would be butting heads between what Cleon wants and what the
Imperium would allow him.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:10:50 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

Andrew Vallance wrote:
> >If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
> >the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?
> 
> In one word, Yes

Boring. How about male pregnacies?

Or artificial uturine replicators?

Or the ethics of cloaning.


> 
> > or how about
> >alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
> 
> Another goodie

Yawn...  

Social problems that occur today will happen in the Far Future, but look
at many sci fi writers today : they take a problem that occurs today and
put a futuristic slant on it. Like the Forever War is a slant on Vietnam
and the Third Imperium being a slant on the rise and fall of Ancient
Rome.

If I want to talk about alcaholism, I will go to alt.pickle.my.brain

> 
> >or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
> >one,
> 
> True, it could be facinating

This one is more interesting. Given current aging trends, it is
concievable that in the far future people will tend to live longer,
possably retiring at 100 or laater _Without anagathics_. 

The social and political impact on the imperium would be noticable.
(take the American system, where the Age Lobby has inappropiate power in
elections because they can afford to mobilise their vote more than any
other sector. A strong argument for compulsory voting, al la Australia
:-)
> 
> > or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
> >there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)
> 
> I never really have understood what this term "Politically Correct" means,

IMNSOO, PC is not an issue for the impirium in M:0. The Impirium is a
trade alliance with a strong stick (only WE can make war in space).
Moral delema's would still be a planet by planet thing.

[...snip...]
> gun or a jump drive works. I keep my interest in technical minutae for
> wargames, for me roleplaying is exactly that, roleplaying.

Rolepalying social problems is a fine line situation. I have seen it
become a farce or a moving RPG experience. It really depends on the
players how far you want to go with it. IMHO, with most palyers it is
nto far at all.


> 
>   Andrew etc.
>     a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
> 
> ****************************************************************************
>   Be pure, Be strong, Behave
> ****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:58:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Good taste?

Hello,
>	Oh, and I've been writing up a short essay entitled Sexual Practices in 
>the Two Thousand Worlds. While its not graphic and I think is being 
>tastefully written, I'm unsure if I should post it to the list or not.

  Well, that shouldn't be a problem, as there are probably very few,
if any, livestock reading the TML.

  OTOH, can anyone see obvious problems with TL based reductions in
L-Hyd requirements as various J-numbers minimum TL is passed, e.g.
at TL10 (+1 TL) Jump 1 would require only 9% of ships' value to jump?

  BTW, the comment a  while ago about miniguns for spaceship combat was
a (somewhat sarcastic) joke, but the hit probabilities for non-seeking
weapons of differing (non-C) velocities do need to be worked out to address
the sub-munition / bus issue.

        Have fun,
                Steven Hudson,

               Vancouver, British Columbia
The CT Creed
        "There is no (SF) Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:12:18 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Off-topic: Cleon's Death

        Quoth Emperor's Arsenal, pg. 3: "Year 59 sees continuing expansion
of the Imperium under Emperor Cleon I"

        According to the Imperial Encyclopedia, Cleon I died in year 53, and
Cleon II the Weak ascended the throne, only to abdicate one year later in
favor of Artemsus Lentuli.

        Hummmm... Joe, could you ask IG if this is just a typo or the
Traveller History is being changed on purpose...? or the history written in
1,100 has been amended?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:01:55 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Who we are

Gosh, aren't all you TMLers *interesting*?  (No sarcasm, despite bing 
British and good at it...)

Me, I got a BA in chemistry (with some maths, physics and materials 
science) from Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge; rather than do 
something different like everyone else on the list, I stayed to do a 
PhD in theoretical chemistry - specifically, reactions of small 
molecules at metal surfaces.  I'm now a post-doc researcher at the 
University of Sheffield, working on search techniques for chemical 
databases.

I've played Traveller on and off (mostly off) since the mid-80s,
mostly for the background.  (No, I didn't buy TNE.)  I'm gearhead in
the sense of demanding internal consistency, but the play's the
thing.  I like designing ships and vehicles, as well as political 
backgrounds.

Recreations: Guitar, practical psychology (Jungian), Chomskyan 
linguistics, ex-flag football lineman (5'5", too many lbs).  Self 
(over-) education, mainly by reading and thinking.
Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1232
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1233



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Names
Who we are!
Re: Fleet operations
Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Racism/Heterosexism/Speciesism in Traveller 
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)
Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:47:56 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Names

- -> Volkmar G said:
Nooooooo! What did you do???? Misspell my name, you did!
 
- -> >- -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
- -> >How you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german" 
- -> >names will always remain a riddle to me.
- -> 
- -> I don't know about anyone else, but I also fall back on the standard
- -> reference on the topic: 
- -> 
- -> _Germanic-Sounding Names for RPGs,_ by Gustav Heimlich, Freiherr von
- -> Handschuheim, B&D publishing, GMBH.
[G] :-) 
Nice one!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:55:42 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Who we are!

Someone wrote :

> Anyone else care to embarrass themselves?

I'm 25 and a networking engineer, playing with middleware and databases. 

Actually I took a 5 years degree in microelectronics so I have a background
in quantium mecanic and cristallography. I specialised myself in Networking
because the microelectonic branch was a little busy, and boring... 
Then I was a teacher in networking during my military duty (1year). And
finally, I'm working for 2 years in a service company (recently become the
biggest in France) temporary called Sligos-Axime-Marben. I'm working on a
Win99 project for a French bank, in charge of the middleware and all
general procedures.

I've done some job in an Intranet service for our company and I'm peronally
programming Visual Basic at home. I'm building a map displayer for
TNE/Pre-collapse data.

I'm playing TNE very recently with my girlfriend (damn! my wife from a week
now!). I'd play Vampire and other WhiteWolf products for 3 years. Before it
was the ADD of course. I handle a RPG club in the University (2 year as
president).

I think that's all
Oh no! let's be subjective:
   STR   3
   AGL   5
   CON   3
   INT   8-9
   EDU  7 general (10 networking/middleware)
   CHR  4 (8 when I'm taking about RPG)
   PSI   10 ;-)


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:12:36 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Fleet operations

>Another variation. Choose between a varible time and fixed place. Or a
>fixed time and varible place.

Yeah, and make the product of the two a constant that you cannot improve on
(like quantum mechanical location and momentum relationships). This gives
heightened suspense when exitimg from jumpspace as there will be a certain
timepoint when exactly 7 days (or whatever the mean jumplength is) has
passed. If the ship exits at that time (in milliseconds) it definately has
misjumped so this exact time is dreaded by astrogaters all over the
Imperium. Coin several nicknames for it to add cultural flavor.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

At 01:49 PM 4/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>WOW, John!  Great ideas on the Zodian "Aslan" -- makes me want to run a
>campaign there!  (I hate "me-too" posts, but this article was just too
>perceptive not to praise).

I post something that implies interspecies sex and you
want to play there? You dog, you!

(wait, wrong species)

<cue light bulb> or maybe not! Somewhere, there
are vargr who have adopted Aslan culture.
Probably they're loners who've made the necessary 
sacrifices to discipline, but just maybe there's
a very small vargr Clan, of low status and with
high attrition problems (lots of drop-outs), 
but they walk the walk, talk the talk, fight the 
fight, and honor the honor as much as any 
biological aslan.

Throw THAT at your players and let them try to 
figure it out ;)


Jeez!  The PCs get a meeting with the lord of
clan Airyahuetarrl and his wives regarding
trade arrangements they're negotiating on behalf
of certain Factors. They enter the lord's 
Reception Hall and find out he's a human,
and his five wives consist of two humans,
two aslan, and a vargr. Ack!

JB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:05:27 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

- -> > -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West How
- -> > you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german"  names
- -> > will always remain a riddle to me.
- -> 
- -> Don't blame *this* one on Americans!  First, I'm pretty sure that RDR is
- -> Canadian (and we don't take responsibility for *anything* they do), and
- -> second when we do make up German names we just follow Wanger's lead...<g>
- -> OTOH, I will admit Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is a *little* over the
- -> top, but pretty appropriate given the history. 
Well, but it's still a north american trait. Bad or mad scientist in 
RPG's or Movies are mostly of German-type heritage and have silly 
names, usually relating to their profession or habit. 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:03:24 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

- -> Volker Greimann wrote:
- -> 
- -> >
- -> >- -> >-  31 October 1899: Siegfried von Gotterdammerung is born in West
- -> >How you americans always manage to come up with these wierd "german"
- -> >names will always remain a riddle to me.
- -> >
- -> 
- ->     Well, IIRC, "gotterdammerung" is German for "apocalypse", "von"
- -> indicates landed gentry, and Siegfried was the hero of the Ring Cycle, no?
- -> I chose it for the sort of over-the-top cheezy propagandistic B-movie
- -> villain ring it had; I thought it sounded exactly like what a Nazi mad
- -> scientist out of some bad 1950's American pulp-SF novel would be named.
Well i realize that, but it still strikes me as a weird name:
You wouldn't call an english-heritage bad guy Sir Arthur of Doom or 
anything now, wouldn't you? (Well maybe, if you wrote Marvel Comics 
you would choose a name like that, but that's another story!)

I wan't making the post because i was offended by the name (which i 
wasn't !!!), but rather because i find this verrrry amusing, nicht 
wahrrr? 


 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:09:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Racism/Heterosexism/Speciesism in Traveller 

At 09:12 PM 4/18/97 -0800, you wrote:
>The thread has been dying down, probably with good reason, but I can't
>resist chucking in my "thoughts" -- I'll try to keep it Traveller-relevant,
>though.
>
[stuff about segregation in Imperial military units snipped.
Very much like something I posted independently -- are you
a "great mind" Kenji? Damned if I know if I'm one ;)]
>
>(In general, I have always assumed a big difference between "Imperial
>civilization," a sort of cultural cement holding together the interstellar
>military, political, and economic fabric, and the thousands of local
>cultures of the member worlds and regions making up the Imperium.)

I've always assumed there is a wide "Imperial mainstream"
of people who consider themselves "Citizens of the 
Imperium" -- the people whose world-view automatically
includes the interstellar dimension: merchants, military,
scouts, nobles, belters, scouts (anyone notice the pattern?)
etc., the Imperium's "Traveller class" if you will -- and
worlds where that view is pervasive (e.g. Regina, Rhylanor,
Dingiir, etc.)

Part of the Imperium's mechanism of order and control
is the (near-)guarantee of system-level sovreignty.
By encouraging "local culture" it helps to atomize
any resistance and keep it containable. Lacking an
effective ability to resist Imperial culture, they
can drop out of it with few hassles as long as they 
keep paying their taxes.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

At 11:19 PM 4/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
>the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  

Absolutly. Romeo and Juliet were teens. So were 
Mary and Joseph.  A young couple boards your players'
ship. Before liftoff her parents show up and want
the guy's head. She says it's all OK, God did it.
What do the PC's do? What is the Imperial "norm"
for the age of consent and marraige (and number
of spouses), and how much tolerance is there for 
deviations from that norm?

>or how about
>alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

Absolutely, again.  The PC's are hanging out in their
favorite seedy space-ranger bar, when temperence-movement
activists burst in with hatchets. Leading the charge
is the mother of the starport's alcoholic mayor/administrator...

The ship hires on an assistant engineer who likes
Pangalactic Gargleblasters too much. This causes 
maintainence problems, maybe a misjump...

Need I go on?


>
>or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a 
>fascinating one, 

In Traveller? The game where you actually want to roll up
an old geezer since they've got all those skills? You betcha!

>or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, 
>I bet there's alot of people on this mailing list who 
>would like that :)

Minus the bile, yes. The Imperial interstellar culture 
sees itself as very cosmopolitan, sophisticated, and 
tolerant. What are the biases it can't see through?

For the Sturm:
>
>sturm
 
and for the Drang:

John Bogan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 04:59:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

  Well, here are my comments on the Aprill THUDD Designs.  I'll make some
general remarks first, and then get into some more detailed comments on
each design in the section on ratings below.  In general the designs were
very interesting.

  About half the designs were 600T, and another quarter were 500T.  I
think this reflects a relalistic analysis of the situation and mission
requirements.  In general, the 300T and 400T designs were significantly
less capable, and I have generally rated them as such.  This is due to the
minimum sizes of certain equipment, like sensors, com, and controls -
bigger ships in this size range have a higher percntage of hull capacity
to devote to weaponry.

  All but one of the designs is J2 - a look at the J3 design shows why.
While it has greater strategic mobility, it is inferior in other aspects
to the J2 designs (as one would expect).  Given the design criteria of
commerce protection, J2 is enough.

  There was much more variation in M-drives, from 2 up to 6.  Most ships
are 4 or better, which I think is a good thing.  You need to chase down
those pirates, or run away from the big ships - high G is useful.  In
general, I downrated ships with less than M4 and gave extra points for
ships with more than M4.

  I also gave points for hangers - given the stress on fighters in
anti-pirate actions by Cleon I, the ability to accomodate them is
essential.  I also downrated ships without meson screens - the written
requirement for superior defensive capability, along with the requirement
for use in fleet actions, means any design without such screens waould be
less capable.  Finally, I gave extra points to ships that put the crew in
staterooms rather than bunks.  I always liked the idea from 2300AD that
cramped crew quarters gave you a negative DM on crew performance. 

  One thing that peaves me is the number of designers who called their A10
P4 J10 sensor packages "Top of the line."  Not true - the slightly larger
TL12 package of Medium Military Sensors has A16 P5 J16 ratings -
significantly superior in coverage.  I downrated all ships that made do
with the Small Military Sensor package.

  My suspiciaons were confirmed about SSDS vs. QSDS - the best designs
were SSDS designs, since you could add more armor.  One thing that I would
like to put out for discussion is the use of hulls from Wildstars big book
of hulls in QSDS designs.  I think they should not get the QSDS discount,
though they should be allowed for use - the basic hulls given in the QSDS
rules should be the ones that are produced in volume in the Imperium and
subject to the considerable 25% discount.

  Anyway, here are my ratings.

> **************************************************
> * OFFICIAL THUDDD BALLOT    APRIL
> **************************************************
> *
> * Kommodo, Monitor Class Class Patrol Cruiser  (SSDS)
> * Designed by: Long Yards, John Long <jlong@wilmington.net>	
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 6
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 6
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 6
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 6
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 4
> *

  The J3 capability limits the rest of the armament, particularly the
laser compared to other ships.  I liked the large emergency low
capability, as well as the 30T hanger.  Low manuever and high cost led me
to downrate this design.

> **************************************************
> *
> * Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser (SSDS)
> * Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 9
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 1
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 9
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 10
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 1
> *

  This was a design I really wanted to like - I especially liked the
modules, the high G capability justified by the stacked G-comp, the good
armor, and the nice crew accomadations.  However, this is a real case of
trying to fit a quart in a pint pot.  No meson or dampers, a single laser
(though okay in capability), small sensors, and little cargo space make it
unacceptable.  For not much more money, one can buy one of the 500 T
or 600T ships and not have to choose which module to take along - you have
all the capabilities built in.  

  However, this would make a great PC ship - too bad it doesn't work for
this contest.

> **************************************************
> *
> * Surefire Class Patrol Cruiser						
> * Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Naval Architects, Inc., Sylea.
> * Martin F C Pickett <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 5
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 3
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 6
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 6
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 6
> *

  Good example of a cheap design - the 400T hull is just large enough to
do some interesting things.  Big problems are the low acceleration (M2),
low sensor ratings, lack of meson screen, and low armor (only 20). One
less laser might help, sinc eht three installed are really hinking big for
a ship this size.

> **************************************************
> *
> * X-TEK PC-1 "Drakken" Class Patrol Cruiser
> * (QSDS1.5, SSDS/FF&S for Hull and Masking)
> * Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 5
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 3
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 4
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 6
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 6
> *

  Nice small design, a good contrast to the Surefire, since it has high G
rating (6G), but fewer less capable lasers and still lacks good sensors or
a meson screen.  These 400T designs are just too compromised compared to
the larger ones.

> **************************************************
> *
> * Fiadhaine Enterprises Presents:
> * Geanna Class  Patrol Cruiser ( SSDS )
> *	Designed by: Brian A. Howard <bruadh@southwest.net>
> *					
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 7
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 8
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 7
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 5
> *

  I didn't check to see if this design was sized for a J drive with the
grapples full - it needs a J drive that will move a 600T standard hull
(540 for SSDS).  I don't think the drive is sized correctly, since the
description shows only 50T for fuel.  Otherwise, its cheap, but that's its
only good point.  The lasers are shortrange and poor, there is no meson
screen, manuever is only three, and armor is just average (30 points). 

> **************************************************
> * 
> * Generica Starships Model 45212 - Patrol Cruiser (QSDS)
> * Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
> *     EFFICIENCY              -
> *     UNUSUALNESS             -
> *

  No ratings here - this is my own design and I can't vote on it.  If I
could vote on it, I'd place it in the second tier, just below some of the
best 600T designs, with numbers in the 2s and 3s.  If I had to do over
again, I would have used a 600T hull from the Big Book of Hulls and added
some more dampers, sandcasters, and a slightly larger meson screen, along
with a 20T hanger. 

  Why do I like my design?  Capable lasers (4x1/4-4-3-2), some missiles,
4 sandcasters, a 4 meson screen, a hanger, best standard sensor package,
large staterooms for the crew, reasonable accleration (4G).  The lack of
dampers and low armor let the ship down - the former is a size fault, the
later a QSDS limitation.

> **************************************************
> *
> * The Torden class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS and FF&S for hull design) 
> * Bertling Construction Company
> * Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 3 
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 3
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 2
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 4
> *

  Now we are getting to some good designs - the 600T J2 ones.  Nice cost,
reasonable acceleration, great armor, lots of small craft space (40T
total).  Let down by short range low power lasers, and lack of defense in
dampers and sandcasters.  I also didn't like the bunks for the crew.  A
nice design overall.

> **************************************************
> *
> * New Victoria Guardian-class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
> * Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
> * 
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 5
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 3
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 2
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 5
> *

  A very good buy for the price, let down only by the lack of meson
screens and dampers, as well as inferior sensors.  Does not really
meet the call for superior defense, esp. given the 20 armor rating.  You
get what you pay for, clearly.

> **************************************************
> *
> * Ship/Class Name & Type: "Tlaxcala" class Patrol Cruiser
> * Ce Acatl's April THUDDD entry - please confirm receipt
> * Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 5
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 5
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 3
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 2
> *

  Not bad, but that big honking laser bay is a limitation.  Note that one
can buy a laser battery at TL12 in QSDS that is 50T, just like the bay
weapon, and you get better damage at all but the longest range band, lower
power consumption (about half of the bay weapon), plus that lower power
consumption reduces power plant size and lets you put more stuff in.  Much
cheaper as well.  Only downside is surface area, usually not a factor
unless you want to put grapples outside. 

  Note also the lack of meson screens and dampers, the low sensor rating,
low armor, and average manuever (m4).  Hanger is nice, as are the extra
missiles, and the cost is not out of line.  Again, 500T limits this design
- - 600T would have allowed for better balance.


> **************************************************
> *
> * Crimson class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
> * Submitted By:   Aurelian Industries, via
> * Steven Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 2
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 2
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 2
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 3
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 3
> *

  This is a very nicely balanced design, with good defense outside of the
20 armor rating (a QSDS thing, as I recall).  Good sensors, high G rating
(5G).  Not perfect, since it lacks a hanger.  Again, the criticism of the
laser bay applies.  I would tweek the laser armament to make it more
evenly distributed, add a hanger, maybe go to M4 or reduce laser power
consumption a bit.  One of the better designs.

> **************************************************
> *
> * transRift Engineering Corporation
> * Archangel Class Patrol Cruiser
> * J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 5
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 3
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 4
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 4
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 2

  An odd 600T design, let down not only by the lack of meson or dampers
(though the 8, count them, 8 sandcasters makes up somewhat) and the
absence of a hanger, but by the inferior sensors as well.  The odd M2 in
space, M4 orbital also reduced my interest, although it has led to the
high unusualness rating.  It is cheap, but not effective, in my view.

> *
> **************************************************
> *
> * Erlir Class Patrol Cruiser (Type PC) 
> * (QSDS 1.5, The Big Hull List & SSDS)
> * Chris Cox <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 2
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 2
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 2
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 3
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 4
> *

  A solid design, very similar in concept to my own, but with a better
balance of defense with the addition of 2 dampers.  Expensive, though, and
lacks a hanger - I'd reduce the laser armament slightly and add a couple
more sandcasters.  Not bad for QSDS.

> **************************************************
> *
> * FSY Bludgeon-class Patrol Cruiser (SSDS Beta .pdf)
> * Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 10
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 8
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 10
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 8
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 5
> *

  Well, what can I say?  Familie Spoofulam bit the big one this time - I
predict heads are going to roll at that company!  Oversize, way too
expensive, no meson screen, no damper, inferior sensor, no scoop, no
refine, spartan crew space.  You do get J3 M6, but what can you do once
you get there, aside from shooting off your oversized laser?  Even if it
did meet the design criteria (600T max) it would be an inferior design.
Please note the very low numerical raings are due to the oversize hull - a
similar 600T design would have ratings in the 7s.

> **************************************************
> *
> * GSbAG 'Montcalm' Patrol Crusier (SSDS)
> * Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> *
> *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 6
> *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 6
> *     EFFICIENCY              - 9
> *     UNUSUALNESS             - 8
> *

  Whre did all the money go on this one?  I almost suspect a broken
calculation when compared to the other designs.  Only J2 M2, no meson
screen, short range lasers, inferior sensors, crews in bunks.  does have
60 armor, but that seems little compnsation.  Could someone point out what
I'm missing here?  I know Gasbag designs for the Imperial Family, but this
is a bit excessive.

> **************************************************


  You will notice I did not give any ship a rating of 1 - while some were
better, I'll have to say that all had at least some flaw.  Again, it gives
me an incentive to look at my design again and come up with something
better - a great thing to have happen.

  Comments and rebutals welcome - please take this in the spirit of
constructive criticism in which it was written.  I look forward to hearing
from you.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:44:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

Why on earth would any woman, or man, subject themselves to pregnancy when
the equipment and facilities to bring a child to term in complete safety
and psychological balance outside the body exist and are inexpensive?

I'm sure there will always be those earthy-crunchy radical liberal PC
granola types that insist that there is some kind of "special bond" formed
between the baby and their parent which is sacrificed by the use of an
artificial womb, but these peole should be shot, really, so as not to
dilute the gene pool.

Actually, I wonder if there would be some cultures where you disconnect
from your parents at conception. Those with a real desire to parent become
professionals; raising kids for 8-10 hour per day, 5 days a week and being
paid $70,000 per year, which is what we would do in this culture if we
could afford it, leaving the birth parents to follow their professional
careers.  We would still feel that it is our duty to donate to the gene
pool, and perhaps even visit our children once in a while, but their care
would be part of our taxes, raising each child in a nearly egalatarian
way, no class distinctions, no cultural differentiation, everyone gets the
same chance.

Wow, what a boring society.  Still, this is "science fiction", cultural or
social implications of technology.   

Another high tech issue is unwanted pregnancy.  We are fairly close in TL8
culture to eliminating unwanted pregnancy (in the first world that is),
but can you imagine what the implications would be if we controlled babies
perfectly?  Lots of blue eyes, older parents, more couples without kids at
all.  

What about abortion?  There would be only a very thin line between birth
control and abortion; would removing a fertilized egg from the mother's
womb and putting in an artificial womb, never to meet again, be
considered abortion? or adoption?

Whew, that guy  had some good suggestions.  Next week; Geriatric care -
how old do we let em get before we kill our elders for taking up too much
space and resources?

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:35:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

Greetings!

First Subject, what I think of the BSCS.  It's quick and dirty, not for 
tabletop use.  There are flaws.  The Jump Drive rule and Power Points or 
some such thing is directly from High Guard.(I don't have HG, never got it, 
but I'm intreaged by it, its my quest item now <G>)  Other than that you can 
use it, modifyed a bit, for a quick ship combat.  I know some players HATE 
long space battles, which was the prob with TNE's system.  I personaly HATE 
rolling for location, area hit, calcing dammage then rolling for 
effect...oy!  But still, a higher level of detail is needed.

If you have not seen it, please got to the Missouri archives and find a file 
begining with "rpsc09.pdf" or such.  It was a starship combat system 
designed by Joe Walsh, et al. wich i believe should be included in the 
proposed "Fleet Actions" or "Naval Archetect's Handbook" It is a PDF file, 
so you will need Adobe Acrobat Reader (avail for free from www.adobe.com) 
Its got just about everything in clear cut rules. Its a bit more complex 
than the Basic stuff in T4, but still more simple and easier to run than 
TNE.  Joe and company did an excellent job with this, as a matter of fact, 
these rules are one reason why Wildstar updated the USP sheets to detail the 
weapons.  For example a laser does one hit with a certain amount of damage 
i.e. 1/1-0-0-0. a particle does 2 hits, represented with a 2/2-1-1-0.

Its a very good system and I encourage people to at least take a look at it.

Ok now for the 2nd topic, Nukes in Starship Combat.
In both BSCS and even in RPSC0.9 conventional Missiles do 1 dammage, Det 
Lasers do 1d6 hits at 2 dammage, but nukes only do 2?  I don' think so. 
 Then yesterday I (finaly) got EA.  In the "No Nukes" section a small(?) 1kt 
nuke will do 52 USP Dammage!  That's enough to vape almost all civillian 
ships, and even some military and give capital ships some hurt!  Now we see 
why nukes are a BAAAAAAD thing.

Come to think of it, now that theres a weapons dammage conversion to USP 
table my own project of a spinal mounted Plasma Cannon seems almost Demonic! 
(Muhuhahahahahaaaaa!)

So I suppose that Nukes and Antimater Missiles for starship combat may have 
to be changed a bit.  I can easily make a rule for nukes in my campain, Just 
say NO!

Well that's all for now, you will notice I am wearing my shiny flame 
resistant black suit, so fire away :)

This has been the Commander at the office
(Help, Jane! Stop this crazy thing!)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1233
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1234



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship displacement tonnage
Re: Who we are!
Re: Deck scales
Re: Traveller Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Conservation
Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)
Re: Who we are
Re: Norris's sexual orientation
Who we are
Re: Deck scales
Re: conservations
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
Re: Starship Combat & Nukes
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Who we are: Rsum for Jeff Zeitlin
"Deep Space" detection
Xenoconductivity
Who we are
THUDD Stuff
Mark's THUDDD 3 comments
Re: Xenoconductivity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:23:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starship displacement tonnage

- - -- Dave Golden wrote:

>>I'd rather define what the PURPOSE of a battleship is, then let its size
be a result of that. If you decide that a battleship is simply a 5,000Td
warship, I'll build a 50,000Td warship and kick its exhaust ports ...<<

Not with SSDS you won't! ;-) But I agree - look at the Kinuir : a Battle
Cruiser? I've designed smaller and more effective patrol ships! The size
should not define the class, but the mission does.


- -----------------Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:45:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Who we are!

Ok, Fine,

30 years old, University Administrator at MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion
Center (If I can't really *do* science at least I can support it).  Been
administering University research money since 1990, mostly in Chicago, now
in Boston (my home area).

Followed my then girlfriend to Chicago after we got our BA's in Psychology
together, and married same in '91.

Traveller is a passion even when I had no one to play with (all the 6 
years in Chicago). AD&D was a reasonably lame substitute for awhile.
Better were the "wargames" (especially Eurorails et al) and Bridge (yes,
the non-collectable card game).

I have an ancestor who commanded the U.S.S. Constitution tothe shores of
Tripoli and that is another of my passions, vented by voraciously reading 
C.S. Forrester and Patrick O'Brien.  I have already consumed all of
Heinlien (a feat I am prooud of - its been 5 years since I found anything
of his I haven't read) and likewise Roger Zelazny.

Camping, hiking, fishing on Casco Bay in Maine, Skiing, Playing Computer
games.  Now you know just about all there is...Oh wait! my VCR has
captured just about every new Star Trek ep to come down the pike - I'm
not a fanatic, just enjoy the shows.

In college we had a game that lasted years, we'd game in classrooms until
the wee hours on weeknights.  Now its usually until 11:00pm only, and the
alcoholic (and other) consuption is not nearly so impressive (which is
fine).  I think I've cracked the rules once an evening.  I'd much rather
role play than rule play.

Pete  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:50:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Deck scales

>The strangest thing about T$ to me is the change from the old 1.5m deck
>plans to 2m. Was this to satisfy the 25mm players, is 15mm dead? There is a
>large selection of 15mm plans out there are people willing to throw all
>that away

Well I always hated the 1.5 scale. The players asking how big a room is and
you blurt "About 4.5 meters". When I designed my own design system for
ships etc the first thing I did was stipulating that one displacement ton
was equal to 5 cubic meters which gave me 1x1x2.5 meter squares (the
deckplans are supposed to equate one displacement ton equalling 2st
1.5x1.5x3 m). I could use all deckplans as they were and also gave me feel
of slightly cramped corridors et c that you see on boats.

If I were to choose a scale for mapping in a new RPG I would definately
choose 2 m though. Simplifies melee when most melee exchanges will be in
adjacent squares.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:43:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>It seems to me, and I'm desperate to change topics here, that the greater
>investment a High jump ship represents should be rewarded when using it as
>designed.
>
>I may be being blatantly obvious but I feel that the rules are not clear on
>this point.
>
>I propose that the income generated by one jump is related to the distance
>traveled in that Jump.  This means that to travel the same distance on any
>vessel always costs the same.

I've always assumed the ticket prices and cargo costs are on a per parsec basis
although this clashes with canon.
I have DMs for the number of passengers available for a certain trip based
on the triptime. Highpassage is -2 per week, midpassage -1 per week and
lowpassage is -1 per two weeks. Incidental cargo is -2 per week, minor
cargo is -1 per week and major cargo is -1 per 2 weeks. Works OK.

One big problem with canon is the prevalence of J1 ships and the importance
of "mains". Both these seem strange if payments is by the parsec instead of
by the jump so the aforementioned change does fuck up some other canon. If
one you'd disallow deep space jumping (enter/exit j-space has to be at a
gravity well) the mains would be a bit more beliavable but canon clearly
says deep space jumping is possible (Twilights peak for instance).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:56:52 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

>It's funny, when I first bought CT in the late 70's (mighta been
>early 80 :-/ I never in a million years would've described the
>drives used as reactionless.  The lack of a clear statement of that
>meant that I called them "fusion torches."

There was a clear statement to the fact that they were fusion torches in
first edition of HighGuard. An optional rule allowed a fleet at close range
to use their drives as a fusion weapon which automatically put them at long
range the next round. This rule was obvioulsy dropped in 2:nd edition
though.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:55:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Conservation

   Hi.

   From a conversation involving Craig, Bruce, Leonard, and myself:

> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:41:46 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>> Most welcome, and thank you as well.  Now, if I might presume upon your
>> further indulgence...
>
>> (a) In a classical rocket, the vessel tosses mass out the back, and thus
>> moves forward thanks to momentum conservation. 
>
>> (b) In a thruster-propelled ship using the "push on the star" dodge, the
>> vessel shoves a large mass backward, and thus moves forward thanks to
>> momentum conservation. 
>
>> I thought I understood, but it's clear I don't:  Why does (b) violate
>> energy conservation, but not (a)?

   Pushing on a mass with a constant acceleration requires a linearly
   increasing power input, as you have seen. If you carry your reaction
   fuel with you, though, you can get a constant acceleration with a
   constant power output: at any instant, in your reference frame, you
   are imparting a constant rate of energy to a contant rate of reaction
   mass.  Bruce explains it well, below.

>>
>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Because - in a frame in which the starship is travelling rapidly and 
>> accelerating
>> (like the star rest frame) the fuel is actually *losing* energy; the fuel
>> comes out the back of the starship, as it were, and ends up moving more 
>> slowly
>> than the starship initially was - hence the fuel has lost kinetic energy
>> the ship has gained some, and the total (plus the energy liberated by
>> whatever heated the fuel) balances out.

   Well put.

> Bruce,

> Better refigure your argument. Remember, both KE and momentum are
> *vector* quantities. The ship pushing on the star gives the star an
> equal KE and momentum, but in the opposite direction. Total is *zero*.

   Nope.  KE is a scalar quantity; Bruce is exactly right about KE. 
   Kinetic energy is not conserved, it is transformed from and to other
   types of energy (like rocket fuel's chemical energy, or a ship's
   nuclear energy).  Momentum is a vector quantity; you are right about
   that.  Momentum, unlike KE, is always conserved and is never
   transformed into anything else.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:02:30 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Conservation (was Re: IR masking)

>v = (2Pt/m)^0.5
>
>
>Chepe, in what terms are you expressing v?  Meters per second?
>
>P : Engine power in (in MW? KW? what?)
>
>t : seconds of constant thrust
>
>m : Ship's mass in Kg
>
>Eris

If no units are explicitly stated obviously SI units are used.
kilogram, meter, Joule, Watt, Second etc.
That is the main reason we don't use medieval units (inch, pound etc)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:38:19 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Who we are

Glenn Grant wrote:

> Glenn Grant
> [yet another member of the TML Invasion Force From The Planet
> Glenn/Corridor (2634)]

G4 to G2...

Deneb has been secured.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:28:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Norris's sexual orientation

>A clone is essentially
>the same as an identical twin so the data should be similar (twins
>may/will have more maternal mitochondrial DNA in common than a clone
>raised in a different womb would but thats a minor point).

Not so as the prebirth environmental factors seem to shape the idividual a
lot more than whats previously thought. The research into cloning of
various animals have surprised researchers about how different they turn
out despite sharing the same DNA.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:25:03 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Who we are

        As this thread started with the statement that there were
mathematicians around, it would not be a surprise...

        I am a graduated mathematician. The degree is "licenciatura", and,
judging by the number of years, should be translated to the U.S. system as
"M.S. in Mathematics, Major: Algebra, Minor: Numerical Calculus". I worked
in Applied Statistics for a year, and then moved to a Faculty of Economics
as Assistant Maths Professor. I've made postgraduate studies in Theoretical
Economics, both here in Spain and in Germany, and I am currently pursuing an
Economics Ph.D.
        I started playing CT when it was translated into Spanish, moved into
MT as soon as I could obtain it (in English), largely ignored TNE, and was
shocked to discover about the resurrection of Traveller last September...
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:59:28 -0500
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Deck scales

>>The strangest thing about T$ to me is the change from the old 1.5m deck
>>plans to 2m. Was this to satisfy the 25mm players, is 15mm dead? There is a
>>large selection of 15mm plans out there are people willing to throw all
>>that away
>
>Well I always hated the 1.5 scale. The players asking how big a room is and
>you blurt "About 4.5 meters". When I designed my own design system for
>ships etc the first thing I did was stipulating that one displacement ton
>was equal to 5 cubic meters which gave me 1x1x2.5 meter squares (the
>deckplans are supposed to equate one displacement ton equalling 2st
>1.5x1.5x3 m). I could use all deckplans as they were and also gave me feel
>of slightly cramped corridors et c that you see on boats.

I started to use the 2m grids in my deckplans, but it just didn't work out
very well. I use the "snapshot" system - and it's just plain built for 1.5
meter sqaures in terms of movement and time to do things. I adapted it at
one point for T:TNE, but I'm much happier being back to the "Classic
scales".



 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:00:35 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: conservations

Shadow wrote 

>Bruce,
>Better refigure your argument. Remember, both KE and momentum are
>*vector* quantities.

Kinetic energy is a scalar, not a vector. 

>The ship pushing on the star gives the star an
>equal KE and momentum, but in the opposite direction. Total is *zero*.

No. In some frames of reference the star slows down, and loses kinetic    
energy; in others it speeds up (and gains energy); in all, the rate of
gain of energy has to balance with the power being put into the pusher.

I will admit I was wrong about push-against-the-star drives not conserving
energy, as long as the acceleration goes down as velocity wrt the star
goes up...What I was trying to explain was why the push-against-the-star
drive's acceleration goes down as you'
are moving faster, while a reaction drive that uses the same energy to heat
fuel doesn't. In the star rest (or near-rest) frame the kinetic energy
that goes into the star is nearly negligible; energy balance can be treated
just by making the rate of increase of kinetic energy of the ship equal the
power applied, and hence the acceleration goes down with ship's speed.
Another way to say it is that at a constant acceleration, a ship's rate
of kinetic energy gain goes up with time. So why can a reaction drive

give you constant acceleration at a constant power level? Because the
reaction mass (at each instant) starts out with the same velocity as the
ship and *loses* kinetic energy, since it comes out the "back" of the ship
with a velocity (in the star-system rest frame) lower than that of the
ship.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:12:35 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

>I also downrated ships without meson screens - the written
>requirement for superior defensive capability, along with the requirement
f
>for use in fleet actions, means any design without such screens waould be
>less capable.

I'm not sure this is particularly true. At TL-12, the small ships these
"cruisers" are designed to fight won't have meson gun weapons - as many
people have noted, meson guns are nowhere near as good as lasers, either
in T4 or good old BL. Meson guns only start to be worth the space on
2000 T or more ships...and only *really* worth the space on 5000 T+.
By that point, the dinky little meson screen you can put on a 500T patrol
cruiser won't protect you at all. Overall, I'd rather have another laser
turret.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:17:25 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

>So I suppose that Nukes and Antimater Missiles for starship combat may have 
>to be changed a bit.  I can easily make a rule for nukes in my campain, Just 
>say NO!

The "nuclear" missiles in T4 are nuclear-pumped x-ray lasers - they detonate
thousands of km away from the target, and lase a bunch of x-rays at it.

The change needed for impact nuclear missiles and antimatter missiles is 
simple: they don't work. Decent point defence lasers can't possibly miss
incoming missiles at 1000-km ranges - so nuclear missiles will never hit their
target, if it has any lasers working at all. In addition, Traveller missiles
move so fast that the nuclear warhead is almost irrelevant to the damage
they'd do just by kinetic energy alone...the "Kinetic Kill Missile" beloved
of some on this mailing list. These have the advantage of being cheaper than
nukes, so you can at least dream of overwhelming the targets point defence.

The real question is "What are the *conventional* missiles in T4"...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:38:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Jerry Sanders <kalin@bambam.swlink.net>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> The never ending Dumarest books by E.C. Tubb give a very good picture of the
> sort of goods that a Free Trader would trade in. I rather liked the
> atmosphere, too - very Traveller-esque.
> 
> R. Boleyn
>  <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

For those interested, the LAST novel in the Dumarest of Terra series was
published last month. Its title is "The Return" and it is a good read. Its
price is $20.00 and is published by Gryphon Publications. Gryphons address
is:

Gryphon Publications
P.O. Box 209
Brooklyn, NY 11228-0209
USA

L8r,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 18:42:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Who we are: Rsum for Jeff Zeitlin

  Might as well throw my embarrassments in...

  I'm a civil servant.  I do user LAN support for the NYC PD,
  with a background of ten years of experience in programming,
  systems analysis, and customer support in the computer field.
  I'm one credit short of my BS in computer science.  I read a
  lot of almost anything, and while I may not be an expert in
  any particular subject, I've been known to converse
  intelligently on subjects ranging from Abyssinian Judaism to
  Zymurgy.  Traveller player since '82, ref since about '88.
  Member of the Perpetually Shrinking Minority of Free Thinkers,
  with fairly strong libertarian (note small "l") tendencies.

  Jeff Zeitlin (485BB7) 4 Terms Professional (Sr. Analyst)
  Cr Comfortable
  Computer-4 (aptitude 3)   JOT-4   WheeledVeh-2

  (All numeric stats estimated).

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  NEW from Franklin Mint: America's Best Beloved Taglines
                            

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:22:53 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: "Deep Space" detection

Good day.

I have a question for Astrophysicists and armchair astrophysicists.

In "deep space" (that is, an empty hex, or oort belt) I assume it
becomes much more difficult to detect rogue comets, other spacecraft,
and other stuff with passive sensors, since there is basically
negligible reflected energy from the local primary.

So, my question is: Is my assumption valid? Is passive detection of deep
space objects so difficult as to be impossible? What about gravitic
detection?

Next, if a active "sensor sweep" is necessary, what range does an object
need to be in order to be "caught". I'm sure patience is necessary, to
wait for light propogation... How long would such a sweep take? A lot of
sky needs to be covered.

I ask these questions because of development of my misjump theory, which
states that a certain gravity potential is *required* to exit jumpspace,
which means there *has to be* a (relatively) large gravity well nearby
after a misjump. I wish to know how difficult it would be to find the
rogue comet, planet, or whatever "dark matter" is around in the middle
of an empty hex.

It's also an interesting question for battles near "calibration points"
(those deep space secret Imperial Navy refuelling depots)

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:50:53 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Xenoconductivity

I'm feeling rather querisome today, so I have another topic of
discussion, this time for biochemists, biologists or whomever might have
an opinion. (I know there's no shortage here)

A little background might help set the mood. I was at a friend's place
yesterday, and amazed her by showing that the touch sensitive lamp she
has doesn't work if you tap it with socked feet, it requires bare skin
contact to turn it on. Coincidentally, we were at another house later
on, and noticed the metal-plate dimmer switch which again uses the human
body to complete the circuit.

At the moment, my mind draws a blank when I try to remember the name of
those switches, which are also quite popular in microwave ovens. Anyhoo,
when touching that lamp I wondered out loud whether it would work if I
were a vampire. Like the fact they can't be reflected in a mirror, would
they also not be able to use these switches? We also wondered if a cat
would be able to turn on the lamp. (Having cats on the mind, as my poor
companion, Oscar, has had a health problem and has been at the vet under
observation since Thursday. *sniff*)

Twisting this train of thought to Traveller, I assume these switches
would be quite popular on some worlds at certain tech levels, since they
don't require any moving parts (afaik) and therefore would be low
maintenence and last quite a long time. I'm sure all branches of
humaniti, and possibly Vargr (if the hair doesn't get in the way) would
be able to use them.

But what about Aslan? Surely yes, they appear to have a similar biology
to humans. (again, unless they have hairy fingertips) But then, would
Hiver? or K'kree? Droyne?

Now, not being that knowlegeable about the workings of these switches, I
don't know if a specific resistance is required, or exactly how
conductive the body part using them needs to be, but it got me thinking
about xenobiology.

Does life *require* that the body be conductive? I suppose not, at least
the outer part. Are electrolytic substances required for life as we know
it? Would some race in charted space be unable to turn on the lights or
operate a microwave on Vland, or Terra, or Sylea?

If a finger-like appendage is used to operate switches, but if it were
covered in a chitin-like substance (fingernails forex) it wouldn't be
able to operate the switch. So, would that appendage be touch sensitive?
Do nerve endings require that the appendage be conductive? I'm not
exactly sure how the sense of touch works, but intuitively, I assume
electrical conductivity is required in order to "feel" things.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:03:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Who we are

Biographies eh?  I'm Game! :)

I was discovered in year 15, floating adrift in deep space near the Sylean 
Main.  When they pulled me out of cryosleep, My memory was shot.  The Scouts 
believe that I'm some kind of RoM Relic.  Hell...I dont feel 2043 years old! 
:)

Whoops!  that was the Commander's Biog, here's the REAL me.

I am a 26.75yr old Web Page Designer.  I work for an international 
educational organization called the Institute of Internal Auditors.  Now 
before you heft your plasma cannons at me let me say that this is NOT the 
Infernal Revenue Service.  These guys are more like beancounters and saftey 
inspectors and such.  What we do is supply educational media and cross 
refence documents on Auditing.

I am a relative newcomer to the Internet, but not to computers.  I didnt get 
'wired' untill 1995, but I have used every personal computer from Apple II's 
in 1980 all the way to Pentium  clones and even Macs!

Now to the less booring stuff.  I started playing Traveller almost 1 year 
after I got into D&D (1985 btw).  I was interested in a Sci-Fi game, so I 
invented my own based on what I learned in D&D.  It was little more than D&D 
with spaceships and zap-guns.  then one day someone told me of Traveller. 
 This game had it all! from that moment on I was hooked.

Later, like 2 years later, Mega came out.  Alot of good adventures 
remembered were during the rebelion.  You might say I started playing during 
the Transitional Period of the Late Classic Era(Thank you Prof. X!).  This 
means that I have holes in my CT collection, but not many in the MT 
collection. High Guard(sigh) is missing for example.

My main gripe about the other games was that there was no good ship combat 
system, even MT had those ghodawful tables(we used a streamlined house 
variant of MT ship combat)I have been constructing ships since MT, I find it 
interesting to find out how the premade ships work with their own rules, the 
thing I found out was, GDW fudged!

I suppose this is why I am a major advocate for the ISBA.  Starships are a 
major part of any Sci-Fi game.  For most PC's its their home.  Knowing what 
you can and cannot do to something that close to your character is rather 
paramount in mine eyes.

T4 to me signaled the rebirth or the orignal CT, I want this baby to fly! 
 Some books  (Starships and First Survey) made me twitch however. But I 
continue to 'evangilize' and 'spead the gospel of St. Marc <G>' as much as I 
can. Pushing the game on newbies at conventions.  I got 2 newbies to by the 
game at the last convention I went to :).

Well thats a nutshell in me....er...me in a nut...oh forget it!

The Commander
Mindlessly languishing in a prison known only as
WORK!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:26:23 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: THUDD Stuff

Mark Clark wrote:
 One thing that peaves me is the number of designers who called their A10
P4 J10 sensor packages "Top of the line."  Not true - the slightly l....

Actually in SSDS, this is the Top of the Line Military Sensor package.

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Mark's THUDDD 3 comments

Mark,

Thanks once again for your valued commentary.  I must admit that I was
looking forward to your comments on my and other designs as much as to the
contest itself -- you have a rare skill for spotting and explaining the
weak and strong points of a ship in a few well-chosen words.

You're perfectly correct about my (poor) choice of the 50-ton bay laser
for the Tlaxcala;  blame it on my love of big honkin' weapons. :)  I
should have gone for a battery of turret-mounted lasers totalling 50ish
tons, and used the extra space from reduced power requirements for that
damned missing meson screen. Ah, well, 20/20 hindsight...

In my defense, though, I will point out that that long-range weapon
capability was in part designed to make up for the lowish acceleration,
the theory being "Why chase 'em down?  Destroy 'em from right where you
are." :) 

I too wonder what the deal with Famille Spofulam's entry was.  Too much
playing with orbital pogo sticks, I guess.

Finally, I agree with you that Big Table of Hulls entries should be
available in QSDS designs, but that the hull cost should not be
discounted.

Once again, thanks for the intriguing commentary!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:30:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> Does life *require* that the body be conductive? I suppose not, at least
> the outer part. Are electrolytic substances required for life as we know
> it? Would some race in charted space be unable to turn on the lights or
> operate a microwave on Vland, or Terra, or Sylea?
> 
> If a finger-like appendage is used to operate switches, but if it were
> covered in a chitin-like substance (fingernails forex) it wouldn't be
> able to operate the switch. So, would that appendage be touch sensitive?
> Do nerve endings require that the appendage be conductive? I'm not
> exactly sure how the sense of touch works, but intuitively, I assume
> electrical conductivity is required in order to "feel" things.

Damn, less than a WEEk after I said my area of expertise would never show
up...

These switches, I don't know about...but I think it's something to do with
induction.

As for life being conductive...on earth, hell yes!

As a f'rinstance: all neurotransmission, and hence all movement, thought,
etc. depends on the transfer of charged ions,  which said ions can only
operate in an electrolyte. This is why such things as nerve gas are so
damn nasty, they work by either supressing the calcium channels (you
paralyze to death) or by overloading them (you twitch to death).

All transport of material into and out of cells is dependent in some part
on transfer of charged ions, in a non-electrolytic environment cells die.

Worse, this makes everything but plant cells are dependent on osmotic
pressure for stability and, to some extent, shape. You dump mammalian
cells in distilled water, they swell up and pop. You dump them into
excessivly salty water, they shrivel up like raisins.

Either is bad for the cell. As go the cells, so goes the multi-cellular
organism.

Now, the outer covering that an organism uses will be more or less
conductive, as you have deduced. Chitin is not conductive, skin is. Cats
are somewhat conductive, but their fur, or their rough pads aren't
conductive enough to triger the switches used in these lamps.
Fortunately...I have four cats! 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1234
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1235



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Starship Combat & Nukes
IG catalog
Re: April THUDDD
Re: Mark's THUDDD 3 comments
Re: "The Fifth Element"
Serious injury will result [was :on topic or not?]
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
Re: Xenoconductivity
Missiles
Re: Who We Are
RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at 
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
[OffT] Science: A final word
Re: Xenoconductivity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:30:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> Does life *require* that the body be conductive? I suppose not, at least
> the outer part. Are electrolytic substances required for life as we know
> it? Would some race in charted space be unable to turn on the lights or
> operate a microwave on Vland, or Terra, or Sylea?
> 
> If a finger-like appendage is used to operate switches, but if it were
> covered in a chitin-like substance (fingernails forex) it wouldn't be
> able to operate the switch. So, would that appendage be touch sensitive?
> Do nerve endings require that the appendage be conductive? I'm not
> exactly sure how the sense of touch works, but intuitively, I assume
> electrical conductivity is required in order to "feel" things.

Damn, less than a WEEk after I said my area of expertise would never show
up...

These switches, I don't know about...but I think it's something to do with
induction.

As for life being conductive...on earth, hell yes!

As a f'rinstance: all neurotransmission, and hence all movement, thought,
etc. depends on the transfer of charged ions,  which said ions can only
operate in an electrolyte. This is why such things as nerve gas are so
damn nasty, they work by either supressing the calcium channels (you
paralyze to death) or by overloading them (you twitch to death).

All transport of material into and out of cells is dependent in some part
on transfer of charged ions, in a non-electrolytic environment cells die.

Worse, this makes everything but plant cells are dependent on osmotic
pressure for stability and, to some extent, shape. You dump mammalian
cells in distilled water, they swell up and pop. You dump them into
excessivly salty water, they shrivel up like raisins.

Either is bad for the cell. As go the cells, so goes the multi-cellular
organism.

Now, the outer covering that an organism uses will be more or less
conductive, as you have deduced. Chitin is not conductive, skin is. Cats
are somewhat conductive, but their fur, or their rough pads aren't
conductive enough to triger the switches used in these lamps.
Fortunately...I have four cats! 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 19:41 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

In-Reply-To: <199704182304.TAA04580@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

<< I use vacuum tube technology in my games too. >>

They have a big advantage over electronics: immune to radiation damage.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 19:41 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: All Tech Levels

In-Reply-To: <33566da3.5582317@mail.Direct.CA>

<< Another topic that sometimes comes up is extremely high-population
planets that shouldn't be able to exist under certain circumstances
(low tech-vacuum worlds, low land-to-hydrosphere ratio, etc.).  Again,
I am not looking for hard answers, just a list of good examples. >>

Who says the population is human...?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 19:40 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970417113145.0079b210@pop.ma.ultranet.com>

<< I was actually putting a campain idea to paper concerning a planet lost
during the Long Night.  The highest TL is 4, and maintained by an empire
based on the British Empire at it's hayday.  Big revolvers, bolt action
rifles, Zeppelins,  Lancers, and tea time.  Being a Solmani settled world,
the primary human population is decended from Indian Subcontinent.  The TL
2-3 kingdoms in wilds are made up of the pale skinned barbarians.>>

Cute. I like it!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:50:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

 
> The change needed for impact nuclear missiles and antimatter missiles is 
> simple: they don't work. Decent point defence lasers can't possibly miss
> incoming missiles at 1000-km ranges - so nuclear missiles will never hit their

This is an arguement I stridently disagree with.  If the PD fire
rules don't provide this effect, then they do work.  I like the idea
of having good rules in place for real nuke missiles, then we have
PD knock all of them out before they hit.

Look, for example, at the lower tech lasers available.  This would
be easy to saturate with missiles.  Also, if you don't have rules
for the nukes, there is no reason why people will bother with PD
lasers.  How many of the THUDD designs so far are covered with high
ROF dedicated PD weapons?  See what I mean?

So, IMO, we need damage rules for all missiles, then PD rules that
take your point into account.  Note that if you can hit a few
hundred missiles with one laser at close ranges, I can fly my ship
to a farther range (still fairly close) and hit another ship
hundreds of times.

This is an interesting problem to solve.

> target, if it has any lasers working at all. In addition, Traveller missiles
> move so fast that the nuclear warhead is almost irrelevant to the damage
> they'd do just by kinetic energy alone...the "Kinetic Kill Missile" beloved
> of some on this mailing list. These have the advantage of being cheaper than
> nukes, so you can at least dream of overwhelming the targets point defence.

True, but at lower CVs, nukes would have a place---a "following
battle" for example (chasing ships out to jump point, for example).
 
- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 97 15:23:13 EDT
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: IG catalog

	Just a quick note... I got the IG catalog last Friday.

	Since we got the new T4 book, is it nessasary to get the T4 deluxe book?
What does it give that the new T4 book doesn't have? Will my T4 book be usefull?
	Oh, what is happening with the Pocket Empires book? Is IG running behind?
I checked at the Armory last Sautrday and they had no answer. 
	
	Just one little request? Could somebody let us know when the product is
going to be delayed? There is a lot of mail here daily and it would be nice if
IG would let us know that " XXXX" is going to be delayed/shipped late/ ect. 
	
	Please, don't flame me. I'm just asking some questions and trying to find
the cash for all of the new stuff AND support my family. Hobbies and intrests
can get expensive at tiimes...

	Regards,
	Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:22:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: April THUDDD

> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
> 
>   Well, here are my comments on the Aprill THUDD Designs.  I'll make some
> general remarks first, and then get into some more detailed comments on
> each design in the section on ratings below.  In general the designs were
> very interesting.

I'm not quite done my ratings, but I'll respond to mark's comments at 
least..

>   There was much more variation in M-drives, from 2 up to 6.  Most ships
> are 4 or better, which I think is a good thing.  You need to chase down
> those pirates, or run away from the big ships - high G is useful.  In
> general, I downrated ships with less than M4 and gave extra points for
> ships with more than M4.

Well, it was kind of funny - the spec said M2, but of course, you'd want
M4 or better. M2 or M3 might be aqequate and M3 doesn't require you
to install g-tanks or crush the crew.

>   I also gave points for hangers - given the stress on fighters in
> anti-pirate actions by Cleon I, the ability to accomodate them is
> essential.  I also downrated ships without meson screens - the written
> requirement for superior defensive capability, along with the requirement
> for use in fleet actions, means any design without such screens waould be
> less capable.  Finally, I gave extra points to ships that put the crew in
> staterooms rather than bunks.  I always liked the idea from 2300AD that
> cramped crew quarters gave you a negative DM on crew performance. 

Hm, I suppose... I always pictured it a bit more like a sub/modern naval
ship (which I honestly know little about) where the crew goes in for
a cramped stay of a known duration - maybe 3 months, tops. it is, after
all, primarly a patrol craft operating out of some base and not a long
range attack cruiser.

>   One thing that peaves me is the number of designers who called their A10
> P4 J10 sensor packages "Top of the line."  Not true - the slightly larger
> TL12 package of Medium Military Sensors has A16 P5 J16 ratings -
> significantly superior in coverage.  I downrated all ships that made do
> with the Small Military Sensor package.

Does this exist in SSDS, or just QSDS? I try not to mix them...

>   My suspiciaons were confirmed about SSDS vs. QSDS - the best designs
> were SSDS designs, since you could add more armor.  One thing that I would
> like to put out for discussion is the use of hulls from Wildstars big book
> of hulls in QSDS designs.  I think they should not get the QSDS discount,
> though they should be allowed for use - the basic hulls given in the QSDS
> rules should be the ones that are produced in volume in the Imperium and
> subject to the considerable 25% discount.

I saw armor as the primary defence mechanism, so yes, SSDS would be best,
followed by sandcasters and nuclear dampers. Somewhere else you mentioned
penalizing ships without meson screens... if the primary actions are
against pirates, then why would you need a meson screen? If you're up 
against anything that you need a meson screen to survive against, you're
outclasses anyways. I thought ships should have had a min. of 50 armor,
which is more than enough to survive a fight with a few pirates.

I'll only comment on my own design...


> > * GSbAG 'Montcalm' Patrol Crusier (SSDS)
> > * Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> > *
> > *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 6
> > *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> > *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 6
> > *     EFFICIENCY              - 9
> > *     UNUSUALNESS             - 8
> > *
> 
>   Whre did all the money go on this one?  I almost suspect a broken
> calculation when compared to the other designs.  Only J2 M2, no meson
> screen, short range lasers, inferior sensors, crews in bunks.  does have
> 60 armor, but that seems little compnsation.  Could someone point out what
> I'm missing here?  I know Gasbag designs for the Imperial Family, but this
> is a bit excessive.

Yes, I screwed up the laser calculations. The lasers should be a lot better.
That may not be all that I messed up, but I know that for sure... :(

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@oit.edu>
Subject: Re: Mark's THUDDD 3 comments

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

> 
> Mark,
> 
> Thanks once again for your valued commentary.  I must admit that I was
> looking forward to your comments on my and other designs as much as to the
> contest itself -- you have a rare skill for spotting and explaining the
> weak and strong points of a ship in a few well-chosen words.

  You are far too kind - thanks for your support.  I'm not sure why I do
these commentaries - it's really more for my own benifit than for others.
I find it forces me to write down and justify my thoughts, and I often
take three or even four looks at a design to make sure I'm saying the
right thing.  Really helps when I do my own ships.
 
  I'm begining to think that the way THUDD really should work is more like
the way NASA and other government agencies do large contracts like this.
Rather than one round of designs, there should be two.  After the first,
the best three or four or five should be given a chance to redesign, based
on the comments from the voters.  The resulting ships would then be voted
on again.  Frankly, I think this would get us better designs, because the
final version would be better for the other's criticism.

  This idea would be particularly appropriate in this case, since none of
these designs (my own included) are perfect.  The ideal design would use a
SSDS designed hull with about 50 points of armor, systems to J2 M4, and
then would be stuffed with a proper mixture of weaponry.  Ah well, we can
only hope. 

  What might be even better is what NASA and the American military often
do - get companies to combine proposals.  What Generica would really like
to do is find a firm with a highly armored hull and install some of its
own QSDS components inside.  Any support for this idea of companies
combining expertise?

> You're perfectly correct about my (poor) choice of the 50-ton bay laser
> for the Tlaxcala;  blame it on my love of big honkin' weapons. :)  I
> should have gone for a battery of turret-mounted lasers totalling 50ish
> tons, and used the extra space from reduced power requirements for that
> damned missing meson screen. Ah, well, 20/20 hindsight...
> 
> In my defense, though, I will point out that that long-range weapon
> capability was in part designed to make up for the lowish acceleration,
> the theory being "Why chase 'em down?  Destroy 'em from right where you
> are." :) 

  Well, I'd buy this if there was a great deal of difference between the
two weapons - as I recall performance is within one point of damage at all
ranges.  Frankly, I have no idea why the QSDS TL12 laser bay weapon
exists, aside from saving hull area - it's inferior in every other aspect.

> I too wonder what the deal with Famille Spofulam's entry was.  Too much
> playing with orbital pogo sticks, I guess.

  Maybe the recoil from all those big honkin' handguns scrambled some
brains - I can't wait for the press release.

> Finally, I agree with you that Big Table of Hulls entries should be
> available in QSDS designs, but that the hull cost should not be
> discounted.

  Glad you agree - maybe we can make this official .

> Once again, thanks for the intriguing commentary!

  You are welcome - glad to be of service.


______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:37:41 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: "The Fifth Element"

On Sun, 20 Apr 97 16:21:37 -0500, you wrote:

> On 04/20/97 at 10:47 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:
> 
> > It looked a lot like Judge Dredd to me.
> 
> I was thinking more "Hudson Hawk 2150", or maybe "Die Hard 3000!"  <g>

Is that a crack at Hudson Hawk?  HH was a GREAT movie! :)

HH might have actually done better in the theatres had the producers
marketed it as a "musical", instead of an "action/dramedy".

Swinging on a star...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:28:51 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Serious injury will result [was :on topic or not?]

>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:04:02 +0100
>From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk

>MB
>>Q:  How many  mailing list subscribers does it take
>>     to change a light bulb?

I think that I will start injuring people if I get too many more copies of
this.

Let me make that stronger.

Someone _will_ suffer if I get more of them.  The first post was a bit off
topic, but amusing.  It has gone beyond polite.

Hmph.  Growl.  Glare.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

  I just wanted to make some additional comments about the Montcalm design
from Gasbag.  I felt confident about all my comments when i sent the
previous post off, but something bothered me about the Montcalm - mostly
the high price.  I went back, and found something I had overlooked - all
those gunners.  There were lots of laser turrets (20 if I remeber
correctly), but the ratings given in the battery information don't check
out - they seem very low, with no long range damage at all.

  Now, my other comments about low manuever, lesser quality sensors, no
meson screen, and bunks for the crew still apply, but it sure seems like
these lasers should do more damage, at least compared to some QSDS
designs.  This may be related to that laser rating discussion I've been
seeing recently - hope someone can fix it.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:49:22 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Worse, this makes everything but plant cells are dependent on osmotic
> pressure for stability and, to some extent, shape. You dump mammalian
> cells in distilled water, they swell up and pop. You dump them into
> excessivly salty water, they shrivel up like raisins.
> 

No more swimming in the ocean for me! Although that explains
something ... never mind.

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:28:22 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Missiles

I'm not so sure that kinetic kill missiles are better than nukes.
Certainly, at high speeds high-explosive warheads arn't too
useful.  However, nukes give over 300 000 times the yield of
high explosives (based on the MT 70 Kg 12 kiloton ship's missile).

Nukes, since they're not going as fast as kinetic kill munitions,
have an easier job of guiding themselves to their target.  If
surrounded by decoys (inflated aluminium balloons) and chilled to 4K,
I think they do have a fair chance of beating point defence.  Passive
sensors won't see it because it's cold and small, especially when the
point defence lasers start blowing decoys to plasma.  Active sensors
will see it, but also all of the decoys.  It'll show up like a sore
thumb on a fish using a densitometer, but maybe densitometer's don't
have the resolution to pinpoint it.

I'm also not sure where these kinetic kill missiles are getting their
kinetic energy from.  It can't be from turret launchers, though a
long spinal accelerator at high g-s can give a respectable energy
(1GJ/Kg).  Certainly the missiles themselves can't carry that much
energy for a reaction drive.  Let's ignore energy-creating thrusters
for a moment :).  The simplest way of storing lots of energy in the
missile seems to me to be by putting a nuke in it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

I'm having a good time reading everyone else's personal profiles, so I'll
pitch my own:

I'm a technical writer for a major Silicon Valley network equipment
manufacturer (see the email address and signature) with a B.A. in English
from the University of California at Santa Barbara (a.k.a., UCSurfBoard).

It amazes me how many players of this game are from such technical and
scientific backgrounds. I'm no gearhead, but I love a good realistic set of
game mechanics and I'm an astronomy buff.

I'm married and have two kids (a daughter, 4, who wonders what the heck is
so fun about playing some weird game called "Traveller"; and a son, 2, who
is every bit into his "terrible twos," thank you very much!).

I've been playing Traveller since about 1980, almost always cast in the
role of referee. I have run the following campaigns:

CT - "The Sparrowhawk Campaign," based on the exploits of the crew of a
Daryen  trader/escort hybrid, in the Spinward Marches. The ship bore an
uncanny resemblance to the Millenium Falcon. What can I say? I was about 13
and impressionable! Never ran the Adventure 1-4 set, but I did thoroughly
enjoy conducting "Divine Intervention," part of one of the old "Double
Adventures." I also ran a long-term Solomani Rim campaign based on the
exploits of some Terran subversives bent on overthrowing the Imperial
occupation government.

MT - "Knightfall" and "Hard Times," both published by GDW. Using the
starship Gimuqshabika from Knightfall, I ran the same crew of players on
both these campaign settings since they occur relatively close to one
another (Massilia and Diaspora sectors, respectively). It took about two
years to do both. I was going to put the same group on "Arrival Vengeance,"
but we didn't get around to it before we got interested in TNE.

TNE - "The Hessians Campaign," a mercenary campaign based in Deneb sector
of the Regency. This has so far been my magnum opus campaign with more
setting and adventure development by myself and attention to detail than
I've ever invested before. We're hooked on TNE mechanics and my group
hasn't expressed interest in converting to T4, partly because of the shoddy
editing and, in our minds, overly simplistic rules. When TNE first came
out, I tried to conduct an RCES campaign, but it just didn't take. The
Regency Sourcebook was a godsend and IMHO is to date, the best Traveller
book ever published.

T4 - Bought the book, wasn't impressed, but might buy the "fixed" book with
all "Erratta" <g> taken out. The fact that I'm considering this purchase
makes me think of the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me
twice, shame on me," however. I hope MM and crew don't dissappoint.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
Knowledge Products                       cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:01:01 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: All Technology Levels (was Computer technology at 

VolantZep Wrote

>I don't have a problem with homogenous society simply because the worlds 
are
>"Settled" except for the few origin worlds.

To which I say

It appears that most colonies would start small and that there would 
generally be more than one per world.
The strange theng about colonies (although it is perfectly sensible) is 
that the population all arrive at one point and fan out from there.  The 
opposite occurs on origin worlds (of which I would suspect there are damn 
few anyway) and cities grow from surrounding population rather than the 
surrounding population growing from the city/colony.

The only colony based game I have used so far is 2300 and almost all worlds 
had multiple colonies on them.  Surely these would have maintained their 
individual identies even over periods of reduced capability.  Some would 
have merged into single World Spanning Governments, but not most.

VolantZep also said

>There is the balkanized government type and that will account for messed 
up
>TL, law, politics etc.  Balkanized worlds could result from a colonized 
world
>factionalizing or a planet of origin like earth today.  I think the codes 
are
>fine but you have to flesh out the details.  There is more than one way to
>describe the codes in most cases.

And I say

You are right about each GM having to flesh out a lot of the details and I 
wouldn't have it any other way but....
....Do we not need some consistancy to flesh out suitable worlds to make 
the adventures we play similar enough that we can use the published 
material so that all of us do not have to completely re-invent the wheel.

And before I get flamed - let me say I am not advocating all following the 
same strict path (or even be in the same ballpark) because we might as well 
just play one of those computer games - but I am saying that let us be able 
to use the resource material that we all generate.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:24:53 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

Dr. Mark Clark wrote:

{snip]
>
>  Well, what can I say?  Familie Spoofulam bit the big one this time - I
>predict heads are going to roll at that company!  Oversize, way too
>expensive, no meson screen, no damper, inferior sensor, no scoop, no
>refine, spartan crew space.  You do get J3 M6, but what can you do once
>you get there, aside from shooting off your oversized laser?  Even if it
>did meet the design criteria (600T max) it would be an inferior design.
>Please note the very low numerical raings are due to the oversize hull - a
>similar 600T design would have ratings in the 7s.
[snip]


	Agreed re the lack of scoop/refine and medical facilities.  Serves
me right for not reading the spec.  As well, in retrospect, I'd probably
make it just J-1 or 2 tops, and put in a bigger power plant and more
lasers.  Oh, and maybe a sickbay or a refining plant :).  As a rescue
vessel, it's completely useless.  I showed up on Baywatch in a destroyer;
so sue me :).  However, I still think that for piracy suppression, it'd be
highly effective; my reasoning is as follows:

	Most pirates are not going to have access to TL-12 military weapons
or sensors, and in many cases T-plates.  Even where they have T-plates, 6G
pirates will be an oddity.  In many cases, they're operating with kitbashed
ships, out of out-system hidey-holes, and don't have access to regular
supplies of parts or ammunition.

	Therefore, a patrol cruiser is going to be up against something
with relatively low acceleration, with a weapons suite that probably
emphasizes lasers rather than missiles (since hydrogen to fuel them is
cheap and plentiful, whereas missiles are somewhat harder to obtain),
although missiles will still be encountered, and probably inferior sensors.
Given that Meson guns only come in at TL-11, and are the sort of thing
encountered on BB's, not corsairs, meson screens are probably not going to
be needed.

	Under these circumstances, the ideal way to proceed is <Python
Alert> to follow the basic principles of L'lap Goch, the ancient Welsh art
of self-defence=81, and pound the crap out of your target before it even
knows you exist.  Which the Bludgeon can do, thanks to its heavy long-range
armament; it can hit an opponent at long range, starts getting to be pretty
dangerous at medium range, and up close it's doing 8 & 6 with the PA gun
and lasers.

	As well, the PA gun has the advantage of not being affected by
anything short of a Black Globe, and rolls twice on the damage effects
table under RPSC.  Even if all 5 lasers are devoted to missile defence,
it's still more lethal at close range than some of the other entries.
Given its 6G accelleration and heavy armament, I think that it'd mop the
floor with an average corsair (or several of them, for that matter), could
take out several of the other entries, and stands a fair chance against
most of them (of course, it does have 100 tons more in which to do it with,
so it has something of an unfair advantage).  The problem cases would be
the missile-armed ones; even then, the trick would be to stand off (using
its higher accelleration to maintain ideal range), use sandcasters against
his lasers, shoot down the missiles as they come, and snipe with the PA
gun.  The opponent couldn't defend against the PA gun, whereas you'd have a
shot at stopping his offense (weaker than yours at those ranges anyhow) and
what you don't stop, well, you've still got armour 40.

	So basically, in response, I agreee that all it can do is fire off
its big gun, and that it'd be abysmal at non-combat tasks.  And I agree
that it shouldn't win whatever ASCII masterpiece is being handed out this
time around; I missed far too many design criteria for that.  However, as
far as being able to handle the more combat-oriented parts of its mission,
I think that it's a little more effective than you give it credit for.

	Anyhow, I have to go study.  I'd be interested in seeing what
people who know more about Traveller space combat than I do have to say
about this...  In fact, it'd be really tempting to game this out at some
point.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:41:01 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: [OffT] Science: A final word

Not that I want to resurrect the excellent and heated debate we had a
while ago, but I found a very salient web page which summarizes a lot of
points which came up.

The webpage is a close adaptation of a chapter from Ronald Pine's book
_Science and the Human Prospect_. After reading it I became very
interested in finding that book!

http://lsnt7.lightspeed.net/~astronomy/scientific.method/scientific.method.html

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:05:51 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> As for life being conductive...on earth, hell yes!
> 
> As a f'rinstance: all neurotransmission, and hence all movement, thought,
> etc. depends on the transfer of charged ions,  which said ions can only
> operate in an electrolyte. This is why such things as nerve gas are so
> damn nasty, they work by either supressing the calcium channels (you
> paralyze to death) or by overloading them (you twitch to death).
> 
> All transport of material into and out of cells is dependent in some part
> on transfer of charged ions, in a non-electrolytic environment cells die.

Interesting.

I knew life required electrolyte on earth, what I wonder about is
whether all extraterrestrial organisms require it. Can anyone imagine a
mechanism for neural transmission (thought) that *doesn't* require an
electrolyte?

Offhand, the only Traveller alien I can think of that qualifies is the
cymbaline chips (protovirus ;-) My belief is that pretty much all
oxygen-breathing life requires it. As for the Brin or those
Jagd-id-jadgemumble *cough* types, who knows?

Ick. A xenobiology thread could get ugly real quick. In terrestrial
life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho') I imagine that
salinity levels differ between different aliens, possibly within
different branches of humaniti.

I suppose if that were the case it would decrease chances of
inter-fertility...

It occurs to me that the TML in general puts a lot of thought into how
future technology works, how future and alien societies work, but not as
much time gets spent (wasted) imagining how alien metabolisms work...

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1235
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1236



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

fwd from Rob Prior
Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
re: Weapons Stats
Re: BSCS
Re: My life-story (so far)
Re: Jumpspace Aleph Theory
Re: Who we are?
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Xenoconductivity
Ship Design
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Bye for Now...
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Forgot UPP and resume...
Re: Starship Combat & Nukes
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Broken Armor
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 23:13 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: fwd from Rob Prior

>From Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca  Sun Apr 20 21:52:47 1997
To: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: TML Error
Date: 20 Apr 1997 20:44:10 GMT

Should I be emailing to <traveller@MPGN.COM> when I want to post 
something to
the list?  Nothing I've posted for the last week has appeared in a 
digest,
even though I'm _receiving_ digests.

Do you have an address for the TML list admin?

If you don't know the list contact, could you please forward this to the
list? 

Thanks in advance...

Robert


    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 23:13 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

In-Reply-To: <335ada4c.11606932@mail.Direct.CA>

<< Anyone else care to embarrass themselves? >>

Hokay...

In the Real World, I'm 27, with a BSc(Hons) in Computer Science and 
about 6 years experience working for Vickers Defence Systems. Even 
though I took medical retirement last year, I still don't seem to have 
enough time to read all my email...

I've been wargaming since '80, roleplaying since '81, and Travellering 
(mostly reffing) since '82 (although it's over 6 months since I did any 
gaming).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:55:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Weapons Stats

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Weapon stats
>
>Are Damage and Pentration the same in T4 as the were in MT?

No - T4 damage rating = T4 penetration, ie number of dice thrown by weapon
to score damage pre-armour

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:38:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: BSCS

Kenneth,

Thoughts - fromthe top of my head

Obvious bugs are:
Sandcasters
References to Energy Points.
The QSDS.

I really think that the bugfixed QSDS should be used as the basis for this.
The construction rules define how the ships behave and the rules need to
consider them.

Let's keep it simple - although good, the TNE system was too intense for
basic rules.

Let's keep it abstract - we want this as a 'basic' system. A dedicated game
like BL is the solution to more detail. I don't want hex grids for the
average RPG session...

Thats all for now - Dom

Note- Someone mentioned that the phrase 'battle line' was wrong for 3D ship
combat. I agree that the phrase is wrong, but I still envisage formations
(planes and other geometric forms) of warships, shielding a reserve... Very
Doc Smith, I know! 'Battle Line' is just an abstract way of expressing this.

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:53:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: My life-story (so far)

Trent Smith wrote:

>we've been pretty much exclusively playing "RuneQuest" (which I'm
>sure makes me an oddity-- my two favorite games had passed their peak
>of popularity before I had ever even heard of rpgs)

Not really. Started playing 1983, two favourite games are Traveller and
Runequest (CoC and Cyberpunk, T2300, come in quite a bit further down the
field!). Interesting how you and I both like the games with the nice
backgrounds... that's what i really like about them both. However, it can
put RPG newbies off if you don't break them in gently..


- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:07:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Aleph Theory

VolantZep@aol.comwrote
<<Can't remember which book it was now but I remember that the author described
Jumpspace as totally disorienting to most people to the point that if you
weren't tranqualized there was a good chance you would come out insane.  Only
special people could manage to be in Jumpspace untranked without going mad
and they became the Navigators in Jumpspace.  I might be combining a couple
of stories here though. But it is one take on Jumpspace.  The tranqualizer
did not completely put people under just induced a near sleep state where
they could still manage to eat and potty.  But no sit down meals, just tube
meals.  Its been along time since I read it, anyone else remember anything
along these lines?>>

I think the Tranq idea is out of Cherryh "Tripoint" and "Merchanter's Luck"
being good examples. I think several Traveller adventures have dealt with
the going insane (HPPE? or one of the Abyss Rift ones in Challenge? Lost my
early challenges at Uni so can't check :-( ) "Tripoint" mentions Fleet
Navigators who can operate during the ship's hyperspace ops.


- -----------------Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:17:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Who we are?

Oh well, might as well join in the fun!

I'm 25 and graduated with a Masters in Mechanical Engineering from the
University of Southampton (UK) and immediately started work at a company
that is in the late stages of developing a practical flywheel energy
storage system (immediately for the US Telcos, and later for bulk power
systems). My main responsibilities are taking prototype units from design
through to testing and eventual disposal. I've also spent time supporting
marketing, and unfortunately seem to have become the unofficial IT support
;-(.  Prior to this (and during my studies) I spent most of my time
designing and project engineering on nuclear facilities, particularly
reprocessing and waste disposal plants.

I've just (read 'this weekend') moved into the first house which I haven't
rented with my 'significant other', who is mad enough to teach 11-16 year
olds maths! I've run and played Traveller since 1983, and am in the process
of obtaining the CT and MT stuff that I've lusted after for years. I bought
TNE, just for the background and would really like to know what was behind
that Black Curtain! I'm restraining myself on T4 until they get the product
quality sorted (thanks to the US getting the products first I get some
great reviews!). I also play/run RQ, T2300, and Cyberpunk, and regularly
play 'not-AD&D' our homebrew system.

Other interests include a variety of sports, and trying to sort out a HTML
version of the library data from MT and CT for use by my players on my Mac
Powerbook.

Pet hates - Manchester United FC, the Windoze Virus (both 95 and 3.1x),
TSR, being away for a day and finding 15 digests in the in box, TNE basic
rules (excluding FFS and BL), (I'd better stop before I risk the hate
mail...)


- -----------------Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:43:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

Thanks, I will do a search for it.

> At 10:54 AM 4/18/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >
> >> At 03:56 PM 4/17/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Does anyone have a list of possible or actual First Imperium Naval vessel
> >> >names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> >> >have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> >> 
> >> giskharshaza
> >> isiishurka
> >> ansasish
> >> karar
> >> urgi
> >> 
> >> They are in Vilani after all...
> >
> >Thats what I was after, did you just grab a Vilani dictionary?  I do not
> >have access to one.  Thanks.
> 
> There is a program that generates random words for Traveller languages.  It
> has Vilani, Vargr, Zhodani, Droyne, and Aslan; and can generate up to six
> syllables.
> 
> I'm not sure where to get it, I found it as part of the Traveller suite a
> few months back.
> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
> |   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
> |   clown outfits.       -News of the Weird       |
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> 
> 


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"On the Internet nobody knows you are a dog, but they sure know if 
you are a son-of-a-bitch." 
- - Steve Cisler, Apple Computer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:54:16 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

Mon, 21 Apr 1997 01:21:32 -0400 (EDT), Kenneth Winland
<kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>

>On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:

>> >	There are few "universal" cultural taboos, child molesting and
>> >incest being two of them.

>> 	Actually, I think you can find several groups, either today or in
>>history,
>> that have or are in favour of child molesting or incest.

>Child molestation is a universal taboo among cultures, although
>individuals and small groups may advocate its practice.

Actually, keeping a boy for sexual purposes has been practiced
openly.  The term catamite was coined to refer to such boys.

summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:56:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

Yeah, but the Cmybeline chips go one better...their thought processes move
on conductors made of pure metal, not ions in water. There are minor
disadvantages, though...they can't move very well ;-) 

To be honest thare are a number of reasons that life probably needs
charged ions and electroactive molecules like water or ammonia (What the
Jag-il-jagd or whatever...the gasbag things...use). I'll scrounge through
some books and see if I can get some data to back up my statements ;-)
 
> Ick. A xenobiology thread could get ugly real quick. In terrestrial
> life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
> copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho') I imagine that
> salinity levels differ between different aliens, possibly within
> different branches of humaniti.

You think normal terrestrial biology is any neater than xeno?? ;-)

Actually IIRC I think there are some forms of life here that use copper in
an analogous way to iron...I'm pretty sure they're all bacteria though.
And chlorophyll actually has a magnesium based 'heme' molecule at it's
core structurally very similar to the heme moiety of hemoglobin. I'd have
to look back at my biochem books to make sure, though.

> I suppose if that were the case it would decrease chances of
> inter-fertility...

Ohhh, just a little bit.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:08:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Ship Design

	As someone who has a fair bit of experience with ship design and 
Trav ship combat, I'd like to comment.  Before I do, let me warn you that 
my understanding of how Trav ship combat works is based on FF&S/BL and 
not that yucky combat system in T4.  IG has apparently said that they are 
willing to published a detailed combat system, so maybe we will get back 
to the BL level of detail again soon.
 
Mon, 21 Apr 1997 Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU> said:
>   I also gave points for hangers - given the stress on fighters in
> anti-pirate actions by Cleon I, the ability to accomodate them is
> essential.

	Fighters would be best against pirates in settled systems where 
fairly large numbers of them could be used to scour big regions of space 
without needing a lot of more expense SDBs.  For a patrol crusier they 
don't make much sense because they are a very expensive way of adding 
armament or extending sensor range.  In the first case you're better off 
with turrets and in the second you're better off with sensor drones.  
Yes, fighters have a longer range than drones, but they're also a lot 
more expensive.  As an admiral, I'd rather be able to have a cheaper 
patrol ship that I can buy more of, than the ultimate in patrol ships 
that I can barely afford.

> I also downrated ships without meson screens - the written
> requirement for superior defensive capability, along with the requirement
> for use in fleet actions, means any design without such screens waould be
> less capable.

	IMHO, this is wrong.  Meson guns are very poor weapons until they 
get quite large.  No ship would bother with an MG small enough to be 
stopped by your screen, and any MG big enough to be worth it would find 
an MS small enough to fit in a patrol cruiser totally insignificant.
	Nuclear dampers are poor design choices for similar reasons. 
Contact & Proximity missiles (missiles that need to either touch or get
within a few km of their target) are very susceptible to point defenses. 
Even a regular laser turret can kill several at likely closing 
velocities.  
	For this reason, all military missiles are probably nukes and
equipped to be used as detonation lasers.  If faced with a target that has
formidable Point Defenses (PD) then the missile can be used as a det-laser
from outside of PD range.  If the target has weak PD but working Nuclear
Damper (ND) turrets or screens, then the missile can try to hit the ship
directly as a Kinetic Kill Missile (KKM).  If the target has weak PD and
weak ND then the missile can close and detonate as a Nuke.
	The problem with NDs on small ships is that a nuke missile that 
has had its nuke trigger dampened can still be a KKM, and small ships are 
likely to take multiple criticals from KKMs.  As a result, NDs don't 
really do small ships any good.  A laser turret on the other hand, can 
shoot down more missiles than an ND can damp, and is also the only thing 
that will stop a KKM.  So, what small ships need as defense against 
missiles, is lots of LTs.  (The reason I didn't say anything during the 
Merc Crusier THUDDD was because I figured the NDs were for defending the 
troops.)
	BTW, the reason you haven't seen anything about KKMs or Prox 
Nukes in any rules yet is 'cause they can be pretty complicated 
and we (the beta list) haven't figured out how to simplify them for 
anything but Gearhead combat.  We've made some advances though, and if we 
get the go ahead from IG, I expect that we could make both a detailed and 
a simplified system that were compatible and also better than the 
current system 
	IMHO, the best way to add additional defense to a small and fast 
ship is to add lots of sandcasters.  These help against lasers, 
PAWs, and det-laser missiles.  The best offense for a small ship is 
lasers since they do the most damage for the volume/MCr/MW, and can also 
be used for missile defense.
	For those who like to put missiles on your ships, make sure you 
include enough to overcome the lasers on any likely target.  Even for 
det-lasers, figure on each laser turret killing one of your missiles and 
see if you have any left over afterward.  Maximizing volley size is the 
key.  This usually requires MFDs.

> Finally, I gave extra points to ships that put the crew in
> staterooms rather than bunks.  I always liked the idea from 2300AD that
> cramped crew quarters gave you a negative DM on crew performance. 

	I always like that, and many other, parts of 2300AD also. :-)
 
>   My suspiciaons were confirmed about SSDS vs. QSDS - the best designs
> were SSDS designs, since you could add more armor.  One thing that I would
> like to put out for discussion is the use of hulls from Wildstars big book
> of hulls in QSDS designs.  I think they should not get the QSDS discount,
> though they should be allowed for use - the basic hulls given in the QSDS
> rules should be the ones that are produced in volume in the Imperium and
> subject to the considerable 25% discount.

	I agree that hulls on the Big Book of Hulls shouldn't get the 
discount, but I think that whatever hull becomes the basis for the 
Imperial Standard Patrol Cruiser would by _definition_ be included in 
QSDS.  After all, the Patrol Cruiser will be a common ship throughout the 
Imperium, and what is QSDS but a catalog of ship components in common use 
throughout the Imperium?

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:15:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Jerry Sanders wrote:
> 
> For those interested, the LAST novel in the Dumarest of Terra series was
> published last month. Its title is "The Return" and it is a good read. Its
 
  It's about *#&$% time! I gave up reading that series years ago - it got
too expensive! ;) 


- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:27:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Bye for Now...

Gentlebeings:

In preparation for a switch to a new server (KawarthaNET will be
officially defunct as of April 30th) I'm removing myself temporarily from
the TML. If any of you have links to my webpage, be aware that access is
not guaranteed at the address below after that date. As soon as I now the
new address, I will post for the ellucidation of all.

Ciao!


- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:20:21 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

At 08:11 PM 4/20/97 -0700, Mike Sellers wrote:
>At 02:33 PM 4/20/97 -0800, Peter Newman wrote:

>>That's Mr. Pervert to you, thank you. :)
>
>Shouldn't that be Lord Pervert? :)

Well, I'm provert.. I lost my amateur standing years ago...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:20:24 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 02:03 PM 4/21/97 MET, Volker Greimann wrote:

>I wan't making the post because i was offended by the name (which i 
>wasn't !!!), but rather because i find this verrrry amusing, nicht 
>wahrrr? 

Mox Nix.

Yes, I speak Infantry; that horrid blend of English, Spanish, Korean,
German, and Vietnamese, all filtered through the southern accents we picked
up in basic training

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Forgot UPP and resume...

Oh yeah! The resume:

Chris Griffen 868899-0

Skills: Computer-2, Mechanics-1, English Lit-3, Bargain-1, Liaison-1,
Language [Spanish-1], Ground Vehicle-1, Environment Suit (SCUBA)-1,
Swimming-1, Medical (Trauma/First Aid)-0, History-2, Leader-2,
Procrastinating-6, Screwing Around-4, Couch Potato-3

Too much fun to pass up!

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
Knowledge Products                       cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:30:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

 
Mon, 21 Apr 1997 bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> The change needed for impact nuclear missiles and antimatter missiles is 
> simple: they don't work. Decent point defence lasers can't possibly miss
> incoming missiles at 1000-km ranges - so nuclear missiles will never hit their
> target, if it has any lasers working at all. 

	I realize that you may be simplifying so as not to burden the TML 
with one of the Beta-lists interminable discussions, but if you throw 
enough missiles at a ship simultaneously its PD can be overwhelmed.  Of 
course, this is only likely to be worthwhile if the attacker cannot field 
sufficiently large spinal mounts or is really desperate or the ship 
designer has neglected PD.

> In addition, Traveller missiles
> move so fast that the nuclear warhead is almost irrelevant to the damage
> they'd do just by kinetic energy alone...the "Kinetic Kill Missile" beloved
> of some on this mailing list.

	This isn't quite true any longer.  The original KKM calculations
needed to be corrected.  Proximity nukes are now better than KKMs of the
same mass, particularly against very large ships that may have enough
armor to defeat KKMs entirely and which intercept more of the nuke's
radiant energy.
	I should point out that the damage in EA for nukes is (I believe)
for stuff in physical contact with it when it detonates. This is very 
unlikely to happen in ship combat where missiles and ships are moving at 
100+km/s relative to each other.  The best nuke missiles are likely to be 
able to do is detonate within a few hundredths of a second of the target 
(a few kms).  This is plenty close and will seriously hurt most ships and 
fry all surface fixtures facing the explosion.
	
- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:11:13 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 04/21/97 at 02:03 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

> Well i realize that, but it still strikes me as a weird name: You
> wouldn't call an english-heritage bad guy Sir Arthur of Doom or  anything
> now, wouldn't you? 

Or there abouts, yes I would...if the game was intended to be campy.  In
one game I'm in right now the nastiest villian is named Sid Nastie...Nastie
because he *is* nasty, and Sid for the famous Sidney Whiplash.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 19:55:42 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Broken Armor

On 04/20/97 at 03:54 PM,  Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au> said:

> > Remember, the old wooden ships often had metal plate on their
> > bottoms, and along their waterlines.  You might have metal armor bolted on
> > selected parts of your ships.

> The problem with putting metal on a spaceship would be procedural. VDS,
> QSDS and SSDS do not support layered armour. It could be done, but it
> would be a kludge.

Isn't most everything we actually use in Traveller? ;->

You're tell me? ;->  It's worse than a kludge, it's *broken*, slap-dab
broken.

We've *got* to return to a linear scale like TNE's, because it's not just a
matter of purposely layering armor, there are also the cases of: Sensor
Array-AV3 on surface; Hull Armor-AV20; and Interior Bulkhead-AV6.  A hit on
the surface of a ship first hits the Sensor Array which absorbs *some* of
the damage, it continues on through the hull armor, carrying away most of
the rest of the DV, it causes damage to the interior compartment and is
finally stopped by the internal bulkhead.  Try modeling that with what we
have now!

Having said that, I'd *really* like to keep final AV's in the same ballpark
(15 to 70) that we have now.  Triple digit AV's, require us to produce
weapons with triple digit DV's.  Would somebody like to *fix* this?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:22:09 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

On 04/21/97 at 11:30 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

> These switches, I don't know about...but I think it's something to do
> with induction.

Um, aren't they called Induction Switches? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:32:29 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat & Nukes

On 04/21/97 at 12:50 PM,  Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com> said:

>> The change needed for impact nuclear missiles and antimatter >> missiles
is simple:  they don't work.  Decent point defence lasers >> can't possibly
miss incoming missiles at 1000-km ranges - so >> nuclear missiles will
never hit their

> This is an arguement I stridently disagree with.  If the PD fire rules
> don't provide this effect, then they do work.  I like the idea of having
> good rules in place for real nuke missiles, then we have PD knock all of
> them out before they hit.

I agree with both of you.  Yes, we need rules in place for nukes, and yes
decent point defence lasers (and counter-missiles) should knock them
out...*almost* all of them anyway.  

As I understand it, nearby explosions of even *big* nukes won't do much
damage from blast..lots of potential radiation damage though. All that
radiation worries me.

Oh, and that reminds me...what about sheilding from normal cosmic rays,
especially the very energitic ones?  Just how much armor is even an
unarmored ship going to have to have just to keep it's crew alive..not to
mention fertile?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1236
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1237



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "The Fifth Element"
Re: BSCS
Re: Xenoconductivity
Who we are...
Re: Who are we
Re: Who We Are
Re: IG catalog
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Who We Are
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Losing our precious cultural heritage
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
re: Weapons Stats
RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID  TITLES!
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Who We Are

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:36:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: "The Fifth Element"

On 04/21/97 at 07:37 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

> On Sun, 20 Apr 97 16:21:37 -0500, you wrote:

> > On 04/20/97 at 10:47 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> > > It looked a lot like Judge Dredd to me.
 
> > I was thinking more "Hudson Hawk 2150", or maybe "Die Hard 3000!"  <g>

> Is that a crack at Hudson Hawk?  HH was a GREAT movie! :)

Don't be so sensitive!  I liked HH too, and the 5th Element *may* have the
same panache..it stars *Bruce Willis* after all.  

OTOH, Judge Dredd was Just Dreadfull! ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:53:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: BSCS

On 04/21/97 at 05:38 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

> Note- Someone mentioned that the phrase 'battle line' was wrong for 3D
> ship combat. I agree that the phrase is wrong, but I still envisage
> formations (planes and other geometric forms) of warships, shielding a
> reserve... Very Doc Smith, I know! 'Battle Line' is just an abstract way
> of expressing this.

"Wall of Battle", anyone? ;->  If you haven't already, take a look at the
Honor Harrington series by David Weber.  All of them, except _Field of
Dishonor_, have rip-snorting battle scenes.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:39:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

At 03:05 pm 04/21/97 -0700, you wrote:
>life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
>copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho') I imagine that

	Lobsters, I believe...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 97 23:02:15 EDT
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Who we are...

	Well, as long as we're going this way...

	I'm 34, currently in the employ of Uncle Sam, married to my BEST friend
Michelle, have two war chihuahuas (Poco and Meko). I'm staying (for now) in MD
(APG, to be specific), working my duty at a Army test facility (God, is it ever
boring), studying for my degree, reading my Traveller books (all the mods), and
trying to be a good husband.

	I roughly began playing around 1980, after a bad ADnD experence. We
bounced around the Top Secret world, Bushido, Star Trek (tm), and tried Star
Fronters (T$R's vain attempt into SFRPG), but ended up in the CT expansese and
the SCA.

	After a hitch in the retail game, I got the wonderlust bug, said I would,
and let Uncle Sam give me a job (actually, not too bad. Where else can you shoot
the competition AND its legal?). They sent me overseas twice (well, actually
three (3) times but SA doesn't count - it was an FTX with live ammo for nine
months) and got to see alot of Europe (first in Mainz, then in Augsburg), and
the european homested of my family. Just wish I could have seen the Scot side of
my dad... I'm an MP, been one for 9 years, getting ready for Staff Sergeant, and
making my way through the quagmire that is APG.

	I hope to get my degree in buisness management (maybe in spelling too),
with minors in computing and history. My wife has hers in PR, but wants to
upgrade to accounting. I have an avid love in reading, my addiction (my/our
(sorry,hon) PC), writing (still working on that great Traveller novel...),
weights, running, star watching, and what else I have time for. 'Chele likes
about the same, less running, but adds quilting (she made me this cool penguin
quilt - I OWE HER BIG TIME)

	I am not a math god (the wife balances the chechbook), scientist of any
sort, or a guru. Heck, I have problems answering questions on the phone. I guess
I'm a bit of a conservitive/libertarian, but leaning towards pragmatisium. And,
I listen to Denis Miller (he was born in my hometown - Pittsburgh). 

	I like this digest/forum. You all give me TONS of ideas, insight into the
world of Traveller, and let me be a part. Kinda like a cyberhood. Keep up the
dialog, it's a hoot.

	I don't have a character profile, but I used to. Alas, it has changed
since 1982. I don't know for the better, or , the worse. I'm not the spry
harrier I used to be...

	Warm Regards, All,
	Jeff (Wish I had a job where I HAD weekends off) Norton

	life IS a minefield...

	

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:31:51 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Who are we

Well, Here goes my virgin post:

	A little bit about myself:
	I'm a 21 year old bartender/student in Kansas. Played around 
with a lot of physics in high school (quantum mechanics was so cool!) 
and have studied computer science, history, literature, and organic 
chemistry in colledge. I've also done some independent study in 
economics, sociology, psychology, barcraft, and Japanese (though I'm not 
particularly fluent in it). I'm leaving in less than a month for boot 
camp (going to be an intel linguist for the Marine Corps), and haven't 
been able to find a local gaming group to play in.
	Got started on TNE, and loved the reclaim-the-lost-empire 
/explore-the-galaxy sort of atmosphere there. I'm glad they brought back 
the trade and intrigue angles more heavily in T4, but I think I like the 
task system for TNE better than T4 (but the D66 system is better than 
both).

	One thing I ought to caution you about (to whomever wrote the 
BR-spinoff SCS - I subscribed in digest, unfortunately) : If SI is 
related to ship length, this makes short, wide ships less structurally 
sound than long, thin ones. While I would agree that a needle shape 
would have more longitudinal strength, it would probably not have the 
same lateral strength as a ship with comparable g strength in, say, a 
sphere shape. Something to think about.

	Also, tying initiative to tactics sounds good to start, but 
discounts the ability of a competent officer to keep individuals working 
in a concerted manner - the differnece between a well-oiled machine and 
a motley band of adventurers. After all, it was superior unit cohesion 
that lead to Caesar's success in his northern campaigns, in spite of his 
tactical errors (I remember this from my history, but only in 
generalities. If anyone has specifics, please hop in). I think 
initiative should be modified by both tactics (knowing what to do) and 
leadership (getting others to do it); perhaps tactics, to a maximum of 
leadership (or some multiple thereof)?

	I almost feel somewhat overwhelmed by the expertise on TML...

			Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>

No web page, no .sig file, no degree, just me.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:32:50 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

Since we are in a bio mood I will continue the thread:

I also thank that it was a good idea (whomever it was) to restate these
in Traveller terms. If someone wants to generate a template based on a
Traveller model, let me know.  Who knows, we may generate some good
NPC=92s!

Here is my first pass:

Currently I am 34 years old. I started playing Traveller about 1980.
Other games include most military board games, computer sims, and a few
other role playing games.

Joined the US Navy after I failed first year of collage. Spent four
years working on F-14 Tomcats as an Aviation Fire Control Technician.
Graduated up to Troubleshooter and ended up being responsible for 12
Cats. Saw action in Beirut twice, Grenada, and Oman. Did become involved
with several strange "special duties" that took me to some weird places.

After that tour joined the UCMC. I had worked with them several times
and was always impressed. Started out as a truck driver until they
figured out what to do with me. Found out that I knew a little about
computers and ended up with the Fire Direction and Control section with
Arty. (Both the old 105=92s and 155=92s) They sent me to collage at the
University of Virginia and right before I was to graduate, was sent to
the Gulf War. Fought in 4 of the 5 major actions during the four day
war, and as a result now look like a Vargr Admiral when in uniform.=20

Returned to the states and finished collage with a degree in English
history. Got out of the Marines and started to work in advertising as an
Account Executive on several accounts. (Most famous ad involved with:
Bud Frogs) Switched agencies several times and decided that most of the
people in advertising were business illiterate. Started a small
consulting firm called AMG to tell advertising agencies how to run their
business. Currently my partner and I have 14 people on staff and clients
in Europe, the far east, and all over the states.=20

What all this means, I don't have a clue.

To the person who wrote about how bad IG is doing in marketing=85 you are
right.=20

Next!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:35:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG catalog

On 21 Apr 1997, Jeff & Michelle Norton wrote:

> 	Since we got the new T4 book, is it nessasary to get the T4 deluxe book?
> What does it give that the new T4 book doesn't have? Will my T4 book 
> be usefull?
 
Your T4 book will be as useful as it always was, of course.  :)  Or, to 
put it another way, it will be as useful as 1st Edition AD&D currently is...

T4 Deluxe has the changed task system - changed as given in the T4 Game 
Screen.

T4 Deluxe will have a task library, more vehicles, a cleaned up QSDS, and 
hopefully no typos.  

There will be lots of changes to layout.

There will be some new material on starports, which was posted here a 
month or more ago by Marc Miller.

Just keep paying attention to the list - you'll see messages from Marc 
now and then, when he wants feedback on something he's considering (i.e., 
he previewed the task system here, the vehicles list, and the Starports 
chapter, all for comment from list members).


> 	Oh, what is happening with the Pocket Empires book? Is IG running behind?
> I checked at the Armory last Sautrday and they had no answer. 

Pocket Empires, which was written by CORE (i.e., Andy Lilly, Stu Dollar, 
Jo Grant, David Burden, and me), is at the printer, to the best of my 
knowledge.


> 	Just one little request? Could somebody let us know when the product is
> going to be delayed? There is a lot of mail here daily and it would be nice if
> IG would let us know that " XXXX" is going to be delayed/shipped late/ ect. 

Sorry, I try to keep everyone informed of everything, but I find myself 
spending all my free time writing these days.  I'll try to do better.  
But, I don't have unlimited time, unfortunately.  Every minute I spend 
here is one less minute I can spend writing the latest supplement - which 
means delays for all of us in the long run..

For the record, Pocket Empires should ship within the next couple of 
weeks.  Anomalies should be shipping next month.  Psionic Institutes 
should ship at the end of next month (that's what Stu and I are working 
on right now - we're about 3/4 done, and plan to be finished by the end 
of this month, or a few days thereafter).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:47:33 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

At 03:05 PM 4/21/97 -0700, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>I knew life required electrolyte on earth, what I wonder about is
>whether all extraterrestrial organisms require it. Can anyone imagine a
>mechanism for neural transmission (thought) that *doesn't* require an
>electrolyte?

I suppose an electron-transfer mechanism similar to that used in
photosynthesis _might_ work, though I suspect this wouldn't propagate
nearly as well as a mechanism using an ion gradient.  It would be extremely
fast if it did work.  The ion gradient lets the organism actively pump
against the gradient when the nerve is at rest, and then more or less let
things fall naturally when firing (okay, that's a bit simplistic but
basically correct).  Electron transport takes a lot more active energy and
the coordination of many enzymes.  

For any of you bio-gearheads (squish-heads? :) ) out there, how about
long-chain impulses based on a model similar to muscular contraction?  A
transmitter changes the shape of a protein at one location, and this causes
an actin-like configuration change in a spreading pattern, which, if strong
enough, could propagate along a protein fiber, like a verrrrry long muscle
fiber.  Again, I don't know whether such chains would hold up well over
more than local distances.  Ion transfer does make a lot of sense.  

Oooh, what if you posited an organic conductor made up of intracellular
protein nano-tubes, down which either electrons (metallic ions?) or small
transmitter molecules travelled, not unlike a bullet zipping down a rail
gun, using protein configuration to electrically propel it down the
channel.  This _might_ be slower than terrestrial Na/K/Ca transfer, but in
a low-ion (high-metal?) environment, it might actually work.  

Other ideas?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:47:29 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

Okay, I already did this once, but others have been adding a lot more
detail, so: 

I've been RPGing since 1979, and playing Traveller (CT always) since about
1982 or so.  I've been on the Internet since 1983, back when the number of
Netizens was about 500,000 and we thought it was huge. :)  My only brush
with military experience was being an extra in _Apocalypse Now_ when I was
in high school, which was altogether surreal enough for me!  

I'm almost 36, have six kids, and a happy marriage.  I'm also an
entrepreneur and am in the process of forming my third company (the first
funded the second which was bought and now I'm onto the next).  I
co-founded and designed "Meridian 59", the first graphical MUD, which has
been selling well since last October.  For any of you who know it, I hope
you enjoy it and -- I'm sorry. :)  It wasn't implemented precisely as
designed, and while it's successful and many people have played it for
(literally) thousands of hours, it feels just a bit too much like an Ed
Wood movie for me personally.  I consider it sort of "generation 0" or like
the Wright brothers airplane; it got off the ground for a few seconds, but
it's not the F15 I wanted it to be. :)  

I've been designing and playing games since I was about 12, and after years
working as a programmer and consultant finally managed to turn it into a
"career" if you can call it that.  

I'm currently working on several game designs, all more or less in the
science fiction genre, ranging from somewhat to very role-playing oriented.
 Yes, Traveller is a great inspiration.  :)

Who's next?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:23:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

At 09:38 21/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>For those interested, the LAST novel in the Dumarest of Terra series was
>published last month. Its title is "The Return" and it is a good read. Its
>price is $20.00 and is published by Gryphon Publications. Gryphons address
>is:
>
>Gryphon Publications
>P.O. Box 209
>Brooklyn, NY 11228-0209
>USA
>
>L8r,
>Paul Sanders
>
What number is it?

I've got most of them up to _The Terridae_ (No. 25).
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:22:28 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Trade from Lo-tech worlds

At 19:07 20/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> writes:
>>The never ending Dumarest books by E.C. Tubb give a very good picture of the
>>sort of goods that a Free Trader would trade in. I rather liked the
>>atmosphere, too - very Traveller-esque.
>
>  Actually it's more correct to state that Traveller is very Tubb-esque. :-)
>
>The Dumarest of Terra series have been around longer.  From them, Marc Miller
>picked up, among other things, slow drug, fast drug, high passage, and low
>passage.

Yeah, I know. What I really liked about the Dumarest books was the
atmosphere. In some ways the post CT stuff feels too 'comfortable' - it
seems to focus on the wealthy PC, with most parties at least part-owning a
starship.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:19:49 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 08:11 PM 4/21/97 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 04/21/97 at 02:03 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
>said:
>
>> Well i realize that, but it still strikes me as a weird name: You
>> wouldn't call an english-heritage bad guy Sir Arthur of Doom or  anything
>> now, wouldn't you? 
>
>Or there abouts, yes I would...if the game was intended to be campy.  In
>one game I'm in right now the nastiest villian is named Sid Nastie...Nastie
>because he *is* nasty, and Sid for the famous Sidney Whiplash.

That's *Snidely* Whiplash.  Good heavens, what _do_ they teach in cartoons
these days? :)

ObTrav:  I can see it now, Our Hero, Dudley, in his trusty Scoutship, off
once again to rescue Nell.  What an NPC he'd make! :D

Triva:  What was Dudley Do-Right's horse's name?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Losing our precious cultural heritage

> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:11:13 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> 
> On 04/21/97 at 02:03 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
> said:
> 
> > Well i realize that, but it still strikes me as a weird name: You
> > wouldn't call an english-heritage bad guy Sir Arthur of Doom or  anything
> > now, wouldn't you? 
> 
> Or there abouts, yes I would...if the game was intended to be campy.  In
> one game I'm in right now the nastiest villian is named Sid Nastie...Nastie
> because he *is* nasty, and Sid for the famous Sidney Whiplash.

Everyone with the slightest pretense to a classical education knows that
the foe of the RCMP and nemesis of Dudley Dooright was named *Snidely*
Whiplash.  "Sid Nastie" sounds more like a long-dead punk star.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:51:57 -0400
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

Thanks to Mark and the rest for the comments on the April THUDDD designs. 

I added something to the tREC Archangel design I would like some feedback
on -- the
reconfigurable laser batteries. The Archangel has 3 MFDs and 15 laser
turrets. As a
nominal configuration, I assigned 5 turrets to each MFD. However, I added
the option for
the crew to redistribute the turrets. By assigning all 15 to a single MFD,
the ship obtains a
significant punch even at long ranges. from 3x (+4) 1/6-5-3-2 to 1x (+4)
1/10-9-7-4. (I
missed Wildstar's errata on a negative adjustment for ROF 10. Could someone
sent it to
me or could IG add a Starships errata to their web page?)

My question is: Are the reconfigurable batteries allowable and how long
should it take to
reconfigure them. I stated that it would take a few hours. Should  it be
possible to
reconfigure the batteries more quickly, say during a battle?

I would also like to comment on bunks for the crew. Given a choice between
more
firepower and more comfortable sleeping quarters, I think the decision for
a warship 
would always be more firepower. Even on a larger ship, the larger crew
would still make
this a clear cut choice. (I just watched "Das Boat"; at least I'm not hot
bunking, although
....) A patrol cruiser would generally be in a situation where the crew
could either take
R&R on one of the really big ships in the fleet, or, in anti-pirate
missions, visit a friendly
port. Also, in some cultures, community sleeping might be considered the
norm. In
medieval Europe, for example, privacy was not all that common.

Later, John Lambert 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:35:19 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: Weapons Stats

>No - T4 damage rating = T4 penetration, ie number of dice thrown by weapon
>to score damage pre-armour

Ah...

Has anyone seen a conversion of MT weapon stats to T4?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 01:06:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

	Howdy!

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, David P. Summers wrote:

> Actually, keeping a boy for sexual purposes has been practiced
> openly.  The term catamite was coined to refer to such boys.

	And has been met with degrees of persecution and revulsion.  In
some cultures (several tribes in New Zealand), sex with a boy is accepted,
but only if he is older than 12 (or so).  Usually, it is ritualized as
keeping the strength and potency among men.  Many cultures have
unofficially condoned sex with younger men, but there is/was a limit to
age.  By child molestation, I am referring to NB to 8 years or so.  Does
anyone know the offical WHO definition?

	Really, does anyone care <g>.  This is getting beyond my
interest...


	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:22:51 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID  TITLES!

At 08:09 AM 21/04/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Jeez!  The PCs get a meeting with the lord of
>clan Airyahuetarrl and his wives regarding
>trade arrangements they're negotiating on behalf
>of certain Factors. They enter the lord's 
>Reception Hall and find out he's a human,
>and his five wives consist of two humans,
>two aslan, and a vargr. Ack!

And the children!!!!

Whoooaaaa nelly....   :)






Harry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:37:07 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, sturm wrote:

First, please, please turn off "html encoding" in your Netscape browser.
Works fine for people using netscape, but makes it very difficult to read
your email if you do not use it.

What you say here Sturm I agree with entirely, but, then again I have
gotten use to the amount of waffle and noise that permeates the TML
and its better just to delete what you don not like, instead of trying to
argue your point, because your just adding to the noise.

> If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
> the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
> alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
> 
> or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
> one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
> there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :)
> 
> sturm
> 
> Mused wrote:
> 
> > > So if you don't like it, just gloss over them and move on instead
> > of trying
> > > to rain on others' parade.
> > What, people who don't like a thread are to shut up?
> 
> 
> 


Buson
THE SPRING SEA
All day, with gently undulating swell,
The spring sea rose and fell, and rose and fell...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:59:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970417105645.10083A-100000@merak.cc.umanitoba.ca>
> 
> << > names?  So this would be before Solomani influence, so they would not
> > have names like "Enterprise" and such.  Thanks.
> > 
> This is based on nothing but pure conjecture, but perhaps the more 
> beaurucratic and culturally stagnant didn't even name their star ships. >>
> 
> Yeah, I like this idea. Works for me.

I like it as well, but if you read your TAS you will see that during the
Third Imperium atleast they did name there vessels - Wayward Dream,
Agidda, etc.


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"When men discuss the things which are to be, the rats laugh in the rafters."
  - anonymous

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:45:46 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

At 16:56 21/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>> Ick. A xenobiology thread could get ugly real quick. In terrestrial
>> life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
>> copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho') I imagine that
>> salinity levels differ between different aliens, possibly within
>> different branches of humaniti.

>
>Actually IIRC I think there are some forms of life here that use copper in
>an analogous way to iron...I'm pretty sure they're all bacteria though.
>And chlorophyll actually has a magnesium based 'heme' molecule at it's
>core structurally very similar to the heme moiety of hemoglobin. I'd have
>to look back at my biochem books to make sure, though.
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
IIRC some crabs or crayfish use cyano-copper based O2 transport systems.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:42:17 +0200 (MET_DST)
From: Ola Agren <corps@ts.umu.se>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:

[snip!]

> Okay, I already did this once, but others have been adding a lot more
> detail, so:=20
>=20
> I've been RPGing since 1979, and playing Traveller (CT always) since abou=
t
> 1982 or so.  I've been on the Internet since 1983, back when the number o=
f
> Netizens was about 500,000 and we thought it was huge. :)  My only brush
> with military experience was being an extra in _Apocalypse Now_ when I wa=
s
> in high school, which was altogether surreal enough for me! =20
>=20
> I'm almost 36, have six kids, and a happy marriage.  I'm also an
> entrepreneur and am in the process of forming my third company (the first
> funded the second which was bought and now I'm onto the next).  I
> co-founded and designed "Meridian 59", the first graphical MUD, which has
> been selling well since last October.  For any of you who know it, I hope
> you enjoy it and -- I'm sorry. :)  It wasn't implemented precisely as
> designed, and while it's successful and many people have played it for
> (literally) thousands of hours, it feels just a bit too much like an Ed
> Wood movie for me personally.  I consider it sort of "generation 0" or li=
ke
> the Wright brothers airplane; it got off the ground for a few seconds, bu=
t
> it's not the F15 I wanted it to be. :) =20
>=20
> I've been designing and playing games since I was about 12, and after yea=
rs
> working as a programmer and consultant finally managed to turn it into a
> "career" if you can call it that. =20
>=20
> I'm currently working on several game designs, all more or less in the
> science fiction genre, ranging from somewhat to very role-playing oriente=
d.
>  Yes, Traveller is a great inspiration.  :)
>=20
> Who's next?

I think it's my turn now. :)


I've been playing RPGs since 1983 (it might have been 82) after a terrible
experience with Runequest and then bought one of the first Traveller books
in Sweden (third copy, that is). I've been a GM ever since in games
including Traveller (all kinds except TNE that isn't Traveller IMHO),
Bushido, CORPS, FUDGE, SLUG, Teenagers from outer space, Mekton II, It
came from the late late late show, Albedo, Dream, Time Lord, Dr Who, Prime
Directive, FTL 2448, DC Heroes, Amber, Prince Valliant, Toon, Over the
Edge, MERP, Trollvinter (a Swedish fantasy RPG), Macho Women With Guns,
Twerps, Beach Bunny Bimbos With Blasters, Mage (and hated it!), Robotech
(I'm not too found of Palladiums system...), Mutant (Swedish
post-holocaust RPG), Psi World. I do own a few others but I cannot say
that I've played them.=20

I am 28 (29 in August). I got myself a BS in Comuter Science back in -89
and started working as a programmer/systems engineer at the place where I
made my thesis at. Made my military service year while working part time
for the same company since I had a posting that gave me a week off every
once in a while (almost half of the time, actually).=20

In late -90 I moved from Ume=E5 in the north of Sweden to V=E4ster=E5s in t=
he
middle of Sweden (it is actually in the sothern third of Sweden) and
started to work for a big company as a programmer/systems engineer.

In fall -94 I needed a break and got myself a temporary leave of absence
from work to study some more back in Ume=E5. I'm getting myself a MS in
Engineering and Computing Science starting from scratch. I have studied at
an increased pace so that I will finish in three and a half or four years
instead of four and a half+ years while working part time as
tutor/instructor at the department of computing science. I still have to
go down to V=E4ster=E5s in the summer holidays and work though...

In traveller terms (according to one of my players, highly subjective):

=09STR 7
=09DEX a
=09END 9
=09INT c
=09EDU b
=09SOC 8

Skills:
=09Computer 6
=09Languages (English) 4
=09Languages (German) 2
=09Instructor 2
=09Sports (table tennis) 2
=09Jack-o-T 2

/Ola
- --
Ola =C5gren * corps@ts.umu.se * ola@cs.umu.se

General Preprocessing Perceptron -
=09How to put an awful lot of "knowledge" in a weighted sum.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1237
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1238



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

My THUDDD Comments - Follow-up
Of Interest to UK Traveller Fans
Re: Who We Are
Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?
FTL communications
Who We Are
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Asteroid belt question
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: My THUDDD Comments - Follow-up

  Nice to see so many responses to my comments - I love a good discussion.

  First, an apology about sensors.  As you folks well know, I use only
QSDS, so I am not familiar with SSDS.  I did not know that there is no
Medium Military Sensor package in SSDS - odd that QSDS would have a real
advantage like that.  Anyway, it seems to me that the QSDS package should
be available to SSDS designers in the future.  I looked at my ratings an
found that this would not change the way I rated the designs, even if the
SSDS ships had the better sensors installed, so I stand by my ratings.

  The most notable set of comments was about my stand on meson screens.
First, I agree that pirates will be unlikely to have meson weapons, except
perhaps for some pirate bases that have relic deep meson sites (the Milue
0 book has at least one mention of such a planet).  However, this ship
design was _not_ for just a pirate catcher - you'll note the design
requirements called for a ship that could support fleet actions as well.
Meson weapons get used in fleet actions, so I thought meson screens would
be appropriate.

  John Macpherson pointed out that he thought that the only meson weapons
would be big meson weapons.  That may well be true in his view of the
Traveller universe, but I would call your attention to the weapons table
in QSDS.  It includes a bay-mounted meson weapon.  I'll admit its not a
great weapon, and I'm not sure why anyone would buy it, but it exists, and
it exists in such quantities in the Imperium that you get a 25% discount
for buying it!  To my mind, that is an indication that small meson weapons
are common in M0. After all, they are a great way of dealing with TL11 and
lower designs that use lots of armor to make themselves tough - meson
weapons just go in for a ship's guts and bypass the surface armor.  

  I would also point out that low level meson screens (5points or less on
under 1000T ships) are cheap, both in monetary terms and in power, crew,
and surface area terms.  I see them as cheap insurance, and while they may
be more expensive than adding additional structure to resist meson hits (I
don't do SSDS, so I don't know), they are the only way to make QSDS
designs more resistant to meson weapons.  While I agree that meson screens
might not have great utility, they are not expensive, and when you need
them you'll be damn glad you have them.  Probably adds to crew morale as
well, now that I think about it.

  John also commented about fighters and that they would not be much used
in a shipboard support role.  I have no desire to re-hash the fighter
debate that took up so much space on this mailing list recently, but
please re-read what I said.  Cleon I and the Imperial Navy in M0 like
fighters due to Fusion+, the background material talks about fighters, and
so I thought M0 designs should take that into account.  

  As for the nuclear damper vs sandcaster arguement, I thank John for
sharing his wisdom in that matter.  The only think I don't buy fully is
the idea of a Kinetic Kill Missile - I just have a hard time seeing how
that would work at Traveller ranges and speeds.  However, I do think his
arguements work as far as sandcasters vs. dampers, though I'd like to hear
from other folks on this question, especially as far as how the existing
T4 space combat system works.

  As for crew space, well, that's just a personal preference.  I think
crews in larger quarters would be happier on long patrols.  Bunks do save
space, though, and they are tempting from a design point of view.

  Finally, I seem to have offended Roderick in my evaluation of his
Bludgeon design.  I'm sorry if I seemed harsh - that was more due to the
fact that the ship met so few of the design criteria.  I did not mean to
imply it was not a capable warship - far from it.  I'm sure it could kick
ass in a straight-up fight.  I also agree that the particle weapon makes a
good deal of sense as well, though in this design it seem to crowd out
lots of other stuff (as does the M6 drive).  I just don't think it fits
the mission given, and I rated it accordingly. 

  Great discussion - keep it up, folks!

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:34:17 GMT0
From: terry.williams@luton.ac.uk
Subject: Of Interest to UK Traveller Fans

Hi,
	Yesterday (monday 21st April) I stumbled across a video release of a
very travelleresque film. After 16 years the powers that be have finally
decided to release the film Heavy Metal on video. I just thought I'd pass on
the good news.

Oh and for the record.

I'm 33 years old
D'n D since 1978
Been playing Traveller Since 1979
Runequest Since 1982
Cthulhu Since 1983

I have a BSC in Pure Mathematics and have been working in computers for the
last 10 years. IU'm currently running the University of Luton's Computer System

Thanks for your time & attention

Fozdyke

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:04:16 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

- -> Who's next?
Me! Me! Me!
Well, hi!
Hiw do I start this? How about this: I am a 22 yrs old male: My
nationality: German, although I think of myself as a European 
(Union,NOW). After finishing the German Equivalent ? of High School 
(Gymnasium) a couple of years ago, I first completed my year of 
military service in the German Airforce, the first three month in 
basic training, the latter 9 months getting pilots drunk in Goose 
Bay, Canada.
Right no I am in my 4th semester of Law in Trier University, the 
place that gave me Internet access (thankyouthankyouthankyou).
But this probably interests nobody, so let's cut to the more 
interesting bits:
My first knowledge of Traveller stems from a small german pocket book 
about various RPG's, describing and testing them. In there they also 
had a small caption on Traveller. Being a SciFi-Fan for some time, 
this was to me a must-have! So I wentout and bought the German 
version of CT. And liked it. Lots! Didn't play much, however.
So when I heard from a friend that MT was out 1 1/2 yeares later, 
that had to be bought too. And that we played, not as much as i would 
have liked, but still sometimes (it's harder to find gamers for 
Fantasy Rpg than for SciFi :-( ) When I moved away from my hometown 
in Northeren Germany to the Netherlands (AFCENT, Brunssum to be 
precise). I didn't get to play Trav very much. One time, I recall! 
This non-playing, but much-reading period lasted for the last 5 years 
now, but at the moment i am trying to form a new group. But even when 
not playing Tx,i still love to delve into it's rich background and 
collect everything i can get my hands on, for reading it is always a 
good substitute for playing it. Sometimes i stare at the SM-Map for 
hours imagining the possible adventures (sick, ey?).
At the moment, though, my Traveller activity is increasing, soon play 
will begin (MT) and finally, finally Traveller will be USED by 
me again!
If you want to know more about me, why not check out my homepage (and 
drive up my access counter), with the adress below! Also included are 
my Traveller projects, mostly my Ancients project, for which I can 
always need additional information about official or new sites not 
included in the listing!

A-That's all, folks!    




























Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 01:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?

  I'll try and re-start this discussion, since my post was scrambled last
time.  When designing small ships (or large ships for that matter), what
are the benifits and drawbacks of sandcasters vs. dampers?  Are dampers
only appropriate for larger ships where massed batteries are used, or are
small installations of three or four bays worthwhile, as compared to an
equal tonnage of sandcasters?

  I see the advantage of dampers as being their essentially unlimited
performance time in a long engagement - no cans to run out of, so as long
as the power plant is on they function.  Is this true?

  Please be sure to explain what combat system you are basing your
analysis on.  Also, please be sure to consider not just grand fleet
actions, but also ship to ship combat on a fairly equal scale.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:10:56 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: FTL communications

In an effort to atone for my sins, I thought TML might be interested in the
following (blatently ripped off from April's Scientific American):

"To send a message faster than the speed of light, you could build a
machine like the one I have designed.  The machine is made up of two
pulleys, each with a braking system connected by a belt, and one of the
pulleys has a motor.  When you start the motor, both pulleys will spin at
the same speed.  If you then apply the brake at one end, you will stop or
slow both ends at the same time.

If you place one end of the device near the earth and the other near a
distant place, such as Pluto, you could, by applying the brake on the earth
side, send a message (Morse Code style) to an observer on Pluto.  The
person on Pluto could send a response by applying his own brake, and the
whole converstation could take place in seconds instead of the hours that
it would take a radio message to travel this distance."  Tyler Burry,
Moncton, New Brunswick

I do hope the new Fire, Fusion and Steel will include such 'alternative'
technologies!  :-)

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:19:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Who We Are

  
  Well, I'm both a gearhead and a squishhead - actually I'm a former
gearhead who studies the interaction of gearheads and squishheads.  My
undergraduate background is a BS in Mechanical Engineering and Materials
Science and a BA in History from Rice University in Houston, Texas in
1984.  I got interested in the History of Technology while at Rice, and
went on to do my MA at the University of Houston (including two years
at the NASA history office at Johnson Space Center) and my PhD at the
University of Delaware in that subject.  After finishing my degree work in
1992, I had a variety of short term positions, including a stint last year
teaching at Iowa State University.  Since last September, I've been in a
tenure track position at Oregon Institute of Technology, teaching history
and developing a new minor program in Technology, Society, and Values.
I'm currently in Denmark on a six-month Fulbright Fellowship, teaching and
doing research at the University of Aarhus.

  My specialty is in the modern period (roughly 1800 to the present) of
industrial development, with particular interests in the history of the
engineering profession, the interaction between technology and popular
culture, and comparitive industrialization (differences between the
American, European, and Asian experience).  My doctoral dissertation was a
history of the magnetic recording industry, and most of my publications
to date have been in that field.  I have a book coming out later this year
that's a history of the American Association of Textile Chemists and
Colorists, a professional group I did contract work for, and I am
currently editing a collection of papers for the IEEE Press on the history
of Magnetic Recording that will be coming out next year for the 100th
anniversary of the first working magnetic recorder (Valdemar Poulsen,
Denmark, 1898).

  I've been roleplaying since 1975 - D&D of course - and got into it
through wargames.  I discovered Traveller in 1979, and have been an avid
collector ever since - I own way too much Traveller stuff.  I gave up
board games in the late 1980s and sold off my collection (300+ games), but
I still roleplay actively.  I like a variety of other SF games, like
2300AD, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, and Macho Women with Guns, but my
favorite of all time is Space 1889, with Traveller and Call of Cthulhu
close behind. 

  Oh, and I just turned 36 this weekend, married for 5 years (no kids yet) 
to my best friend Anne, the geologist in my life.  In addition of RPGs, I
also like to restore cars - I have a 1963 Triumph TR-4 sportscar at the
moment - and read history, esp. about 19th C. colonialism.  I used to read
lots of science fiction, but I find so much of it so poorly written (in
terms of literary style) these days I tend to stick more to classic
literature for fun reading.  I also like to brew and drink beer - my one
great vice.

  Interesting to see the wide variety of backgrounds of folks on the list
- - next please!

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:11:51 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium

Peter  H. Brenton writes:
>Why on earth would any woman, or man, subject themselves to pregnancy when
>the equipment and facilities to bring a child to term in complete safety
>and psychological balance outside the body exist and are inexpensive?
...
>Actually, I wonder if there would be some cultures where you disconnect
>from your parents at conception.
Look around. The birth rate of the western world is declining. Ireland is
just about the only country in the EC where more people are born than die.
What you are postulating is just simple projection from where we are.

I had a society in my game background where children were born and raised
by the state. Didn't need genetic doners as they state already had your
gene set from your birth. Imagine the civil service being the parent to the
entire world. Scary. Ends up sort of like Paranoia taken seriously.

>Another high tech issue is unwanted pregnancy.
Again, the decline in birth rate in the West can be seen to lead directly
from women's control over their own fertility.
However, for another plot hook, turn this on its head. If you have a state
where you do have perfect control over fertility, but don't have external
gestation, you will, modeling after the modern west, have a decline of
birth rate. This is not good economically, culturaly and it means less tax
comes in to the government. The backlash is to legislate that women _must_
have children. Almost _all_ pregnancies will be unwanted and the state will
_have_ to raise them since you can't expect that someone who _has_ to will
do a "quality job".
Push it further and allow "liberalisation" whereby a woman who has had more
than her required quota can forgo the state bonus and _sell_ her child to
another woman who does not wish to do so.
Turn it around again: what about men? The legislation could be that
_everyone_ must account for one child. The initial position might be that a
child counts half for the father and half for the mother. However if this
is done genetically it encourages rape (but possibly countered by perfect
abortion) or, at best, forced semination. Reversing it, if it is done by
the mother's consent (since no one can argue _her_ parentage :-) then _all_
women can sell off the rights to their children. Since, once a woman has
paid _her_ social debt, she is unlikely to want another, this might drive
up the market price. Folowing on, if there is a high market price for
newborn allocation then you can bet the cost of pre-natal care will also be
driven artifically high, etc, etc.
It could make for some _interesting_ cargo runs :-).

>can you imagine what the implications would be if we controlled babies
>perfectly?  Lots of blue eyes, ..
Again, project. There are a lot of, roughtly, 30 year old women right now
with the name Michele. Why? Well, I believe a certain song was released by
a popular band...
Taking it further, if there was perfect control over the results, you would
see waves of fashion in children. This would be very convoluted. Since
whatever proved to be the most desired choice when a child was concieved
would, inevitably, end up being _common_ and not _fashionable_ since we're
talking years and years on. So the drive would be to do something uncommon,
unique, and hope that enough people don't select it that it ends up to have
been the fashionable choice and not a groutesque.

My head is spinning...


Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:47:47 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 09:19 PM 4/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Triva:  What was Dudley Do-Right's horse's name?

Horse.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:59:52 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Asteroid belt question

I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)

Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the aseroids
where moving toward each others in all direction

I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
relative position is quite stable and fixed.

Do Astronomers have the answer?
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:52:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

In mail you write:

> I'd like a choice in starship combat.  Maybe one general system (but 
> better than the crappy system in Book 1), a system for large scale 
> combat with capitol ships and fleets, and a system on a short time 
> scale, say 1 minute (or even 6 seconds), so that we could have a blow 
> by blow combat system.

Scale is dependent on *acceleration*. At 1 g a ship travels the
following distances in the specified times:

time	distance (km)	velocity (km/s)
- ------	-------------	---------------
 1 sec	      .005	 0.010
 6 sec	      .180	 0.060
10 sec	      .500	 0.100
12 sec	      .720	 0.120
15 sec	     1.125	 0.150
20 sec	     2		 0.200
24 sec	     2.88	 0.240
30 sec	     4.5	 0.300
36 sec	     6.48	 0.360
40 sec	     8		 0.400
45 sec	    10.125	 0.450
48 sec	    11.52	 0.480
50 sec	    12.5	 0.500
 1 min	    18		 0.600
 6 min	   648		 3.6
10 min	 1,800		 6
12 min	 2,592		 7.2
15 min	 4,050		 9
20 min	 7,200		12
24 min	10,368		14.4
30 min	16,200		18

As you can see, except at the shortest turn lengths, the distance
you'll cover is a lot more important than your velocity. And the
scales are ridiculously *small* until the turn length gets up there a
ways. CT used 10 minutes and 1000 miles (1600 km).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:37:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

In mail you write:

> Things to wonder about..if you go to 1 minute turns:
>
> 1.  And keep 30,000km hexes as the basic scale, then you've got to
> drastically increase ship velocities, to travel even *1* hex in 1
> minute requires a velocity of 1.8 million kph, or make movement
> rates something like 1 hex per 6 turns.

You *have* to reduce the hex size in step with the turn length, just to
get acceleration to work out right for manuevers.

> 2.  And keep velocities about where they are now, then you've got to
> drastically decrease the basic 30,000km range scale...and all the
> effects that will have on weapons!

Doesn't matter. The weapons *will* have that kind of range...

> 3.  And keep the current weapon ranges, then everyone will stay at
> such long ranges that you will fire and fire and fire, hitting every
> 30 or 40 turns.

Which is exactly how such combat *would* work. You fire at where you
*think* the guy will be, because you are working from data a noticeable
fraction of a turn old.

> 4.  And have an exciting chance of hitting the other ship, then you
> will need to drasticly reduce the ranges of the weapons.  This force
> combatants to close to ranges where the chances of a hit grow high
> enough to be fun.

But at those ranges and velocities, you'll either have to come to a
stop relative to each other, or else they can just zip past and refuse
to engage, by staying out of range.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:00:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

In mail you write:

> On 04/18/97 at 06:29 PM,  Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au> said:
>
>> Given the uproar with the Science debate (which I am partly resposable
>> :-(  ), I was thinking of designing steam or desil powered spaceships
>> (with wooden hulls).
>
> Sounds like Space 1799, or maybe Space 1849! ;->  
>
>> Premise 1 to justify this : Metal poor world, what metals have to be
>> allocated to power generation and ship frames.
>
> Doesn't *have* to be metal poor world.  You could go the "1889" route of
> postulating something like needing a "liftwood" hull to give your craft the
> ability to lift above the atmosphere.  Or just run the base Tech level at 3
> or 4, and make *certain* technologies *much* easier to discover. ;->
>
>> Premise 2: Wooden hulls over a mettal frame, with a rubber coating to
>> keep air in. (It has the armour value of a wet sponge, but there is a
>> tree in Australia called "Ironbark" which is very tough [axes bounce off
>> it]. if this culture has acccess to this type of wood, it would have good
>> strength [but still no real armour])
>
> Remember, the old wooden ships often had metal plate on their
> bottoms, and along their waterlines.  You might have metal armor bolted on
> selected parts of your ships.

Interesting data point. The Chinese use *oak* heat shields on re-entry
vehicles. Works quite well, as long as you are careful about things
like knots. It ablates much like the hi-tech stuff we used on the old
space capsules. 

There's not enough oygen for it to burn (nor any easy way for oxygen to
pentrate the surface), so it chars. Then the charcoal burns off and the
ash flakes away, exposing more charcoal and wood. If it's still
smoldering once you get subsonic, you can jettison it.

Aircraft plywood is good stuff too. Ditto for fiberglass. And there is
even TL0 "fiberglass". The Byzantine Empire made light armor out of
layers of linen glued together with the weave at angles. Remember, this
is stuff along the lines of horn/hoof-derived glue, which is a lot like
lowgrade plastic when set. I suspect that you could make an airtight
spacesuit using something like this for the parts that don't have to bend.
(with enough creativity, it's possible to build a usable pressure suit
with no flexing joints, only rotating ones)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:30:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

In mail you write:

>         Wow! This just raises a really big question in my mind--I don't really
> care either way about whether Norris pitches or catches... but what about
> sexual orientation in other Traveller species? Especially one like the
> Aslan, which has gender-specific behavioural patterns that seem to be at
> least in part biologically driven? And how does sexual orientation affect
> those?

Well, at least in Terran species, there's a fair amount of evidence
that about the same percentage of the members of *all* higher species
(mammals and birds) are "homosexual". That is, they prefer the sex role
that doesn't match their anatomy. Any farmer can tell you stories about
various farm animals...

So let's assume that much the same applies to Aslan, Vargr, and K'kree
(and any minor races). Hiver "sex" is of interest only to bioligists,
so we can ignore them. Ditto for races with similar (lack) of sexual
roles. 

So, I'd expect that either the culture accepts these sort of members,
or it doesn't. If they don't accept it, they are likely to not be
really thrilled about members of *other* species that don't fit the
"proper" role. That is, if the alien race dislikes homosexuality, they
will want members of other races to at least *act* as if they are
following the proper gender roles. 

I'd say that the K'kree are pretty intolerant. So, they'd expect even
*alien* males to act like K'kree males, and the females to act like
K'kree females. This fits pretty well with the K'kree "tendency" to
treat social goals as superior to biology (We don't care *what* your
species evolved to eat, you'll eat plants and *like it!)

Aslan seem more reasonable. So you might occasionally find a female
warrior or male administrator. But given the "strictness" of gender
roles in their society, they might do like certain Terran cultures that
accepted people who were "different", but had fairly strict gender
roles (Native Americans, for one). So the male Aslan administrator
would not only be dressed as a female and treated like one, he'd be
doing his best to blend in. Female Aslan as warriors is rather less
likely, depending on just *how* different male and female strength and
size are.

Vargr, being descended from pack animals aren't likely to have as much
in the way of gender-specific roles. They could still have the
alpha/beta male and alpha/beta female bit, but more likely they kept
the alpha/beta part, but only treat females differently when they get
pregnant. (Anybody know if Vargr still go into heat, or if they are
"always in heat" like us primates?). Heck, if you go this way with
Vargr, I'd expect that they'd only care about the *sex* (as opposed to
"status") of a partner if they wanted kids rather than recreation.
But *boy* will they care about status!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:11:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

In mail you write:

> Many many years ago (early 80s, perhaps?), somebody wrote two or three
> stories for Analog in a universe like this.  We made first contact with
> extraterrestrial intelligence when a wooden spacecraft came sliding down
> over Los Angeles, landed in the quad at UCLA, and disgorged a few dozen
> short furry humanoid warriors armed with pole-axes and arquebusses,
> intent on conquering the world.  The LAPD Riot Squad successfully
> contained this alien invasion within an hour or so.

It was actually steel, or at least iron. Wood is a bitch to work with
for anything that big. There was mention of a race that had spacetravel
and used *bronze* spacecraft because they'd never discovered iron
working before someone else conquered tham.

> It turned out that the (linked) secrets of gravitic propulsion and FTL
> travel were so mind-bogglingly simple, so utterly *obvious*, that nearly
> every intelligent species stumbled across them somewhere around the late
> bronze age.  Only humanity and one other species had been so cursed by
> Murphy that they managed to miss out.

There was also the key bit that the "simple" experiment that led to
antigrav, also led to FTL, and antigrav detectors, but no other useful
technologies. And they distract folks from the paths that lead to
electricity. Advanced chemistry tends to get overlooked too. 

> Anyone remember titles or author for these, and whether they've been
> collected somewhere?  I've always just loved the idea...and it would make
> for a truly strange game!

Author is Harry Turtledove. 

There were only two stories. The one with the "first contact", and one
after we'd expanded explosively into space, conquering everything in
site, and then had our ramshackle empire fall apart. The hero discovers
another *technological* race that is just starting on the expansion
period. And since humanity and a few allies are only just beginning to
put things back together...

>> Remember, the old wooden ships often had metal plate on their
>> bottoms, and along their waterlines.  You might have metal armor bolted on
>> selected parts of your ships.
>
> The vacuum and high temperature variations of space would tend to cook
> volatiles out of the wood at a really horrifying pace, leaving it warped,
> brittle, and quite possibly not air-tight. You'd want to re-tar the hull
> every time you made port, keep *lots* of emergency sealant aboard, and
> discard hulls after about 3 years (tops) of use in space. 

A good paint will help *enormously* with regards to the temp
variations. White will keep you from absorbing too much heat, and it'll
slow down heat *loss* on the dark side. You want a reasonably constant
temp inside, so you aren't going to let the hull temp swing any more
than you can avoid. The paint also helps confine volatiles. 

Also, mere vacuum doesn't remove the volatiles at a huge rate. The
chinese use *oak* heatshields! I'd say that once it's been properly
cured, you won't lose more volatiles expect at a slow rate.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 01:34:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

In mail you write:

> I have a suggestion. Rather than the short descriptions we have been
> providing, why don't we prepare short Traveller-style bios (ala Capt.
> Alexander Jamison). The IG tests for determing UPPs were published here a
> few months ago.

I don't think I saved them. Could someone mail them to me?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:22:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

In mail you write:

>  
>> The CT basic system from the Little Black Books, Starter Traveller, 
>> and the Traveller Book.
>  
> I've played this, and it was fun, but Mayday was much easier (and I
> *know* you have Mayday ;-)

Considering that the only difference is that Mayday uses hexes and the
others listed just use "inches", I'm not so sure about "much easier". 

Either way, I'm *strongly* in favor of vectored movement. It's *not*
that hard to do, and helps remind folks that this ain't Star Wars or
Star Trek.

Vectored movement shouldn't be a large problem with any decent combat
system. Though "hidden movement" at longer ranges would help.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1238
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1239



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?
Re: FTL communications
Re: FTL communications
Re: "The Fifth Element"
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
Re: SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Missiles
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Xenoconductivity
Who are we/biographies
Re: My THUDDD Comments/Ship Combat.
Re: Sex In Traveller (slightly off-topic)
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:10:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

In mail you write:

> Speaking of positional uncertainty in jumps, I've always thought that
> there should be some, but not enough to cause huge problems.  The first
> instinct is to borrow +-10% from the interval, but missing by 0.2
> parsecs on a 2-parsec trip puts you a bit far from your landing point. :)
> My next though was to relate it into the trip time, and lightspeed.
>
> A jump takes 7ish days.  7 days at c is around 1200 AU.  Assume jump
> uncertainty spreads at c from around your target point, using the same
> +-10%, and you get a 120 AU range -- still too big.  But I can't help
> feeling that c and the time uncertainty *do* play into this.  Anybody want
> to pick this up?

I've been thinking on it too, but so far nothing has come to mind.
Thanks for checking those two options. They're obviously out the
window. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:25:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

In mail you write:

> On 04/18/97 at 10:24 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:
>
>> > > :-(  ), I was thinking of designing steam or desil powered spaceships
>> > > (with wooden hulls).
>  
>> > Sounds like Space 1799, or maybe Space 1849! ;->  
>
>> 1799 they'd be (solar) wind powered. :)
>
> And don't you think, I'd just love to do that too! ;->  I just can't quite
> bring myself to handwave it. 

Asteroid colonies, with some *big* farm asteroids (hence trees), but
having lost a *lot* of tech over the centuries. 

> Oooo! Oooo! I do! Harry Turtledove...but before he was Harry Turtledove,
> don't ask me what his alias was though.
>
> About 6 months ago I went through my Analog collection searching for the
> these darn stories...I found *one*, "The Road Less Travelled", but I think
> there were a couple more set in the same universe.

I only recall one other. the story of the first contact. And to confuse
things, it was published in analog *after* "The Road Less Travelled",
which may be why you didn't find it.

> Quantum tunneling. <g> Transister and MOS technology depend on quantum
> tunneling for much of their effectiveness.  I postulate that gravity
> control works at the quantum level by altering the vacuum fluctuations and
> thereby altering gravitational and inertial forces.  This kind of tinkering
> with the ZPF produces the side-effect of raising the resistance to quantum
> tunneling in nearby microelectronic devices. This increases heating and
> lowers the MTBF for these devices.  So, in practice MOS and CMOS devices
> work, but burn out within a few days of going online.  Discrete transisters
> last for a few weeks. Vacuum tubes turn out to be more reliable and
> cheaper.  The over all effect is larger, slower, more expensive
> electronics.  It doesn't mean no computers or display terminals. It does
> mean no cyberwear. ;->

Don't forget that you can make thermionic devices (tubes) the size of a
*dime*. They did that back when it looked like tubes were the only way
to guarantee immunity to EMP. So you get devices that are *3d* layouts
of metal, ceramic and vacuum in a "solid" block. No filaments, you just
coat the cathodes with something to increase thermal electron
emissions, and heat the whole thing to dull red heat. 

So you get computers that are large, but not overly so. An XT might be
the size of a couple of suitcases. But the insulation and heating
system adds a bit... I rather expect to find that large chunks of the
control systems for fusion reactors are built this way. They'll be
fairly immune to the large particle fluxes and the heat and magnetic
fields. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 01:39:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

In mail you write:

> A question comes to mind. Are we assuming that there is some sort of database
> that tracks all the orbits of all known solarsystems on every ship?  That
> would be necessary for the calculations you are refering to prior to jump.
>  If there is no such database merely rough data on each system on orbit
> distances, then you would have to plot planetary positions after Jump and all
> you need is to get in system, perhaps below the orbital plane.  Just food for
> thought.  

The "minimum" info needed for an accurate orbit (acurate enough for
shipping purposes) is this 7 pieces of data, in one of two formats
(they are interconvertible, and I someday hope to have the equations
for doing the conversion!)

A: cartesian
	1-3. x, y, & z position "vectors"
	4-6. x, y, & z velocity vectors
	7. time hack for the above 6 items

B: Orbital
	1. semi-major axis of orbit (how big is it)
	2. Eccentricity of orbit (what shape is it)
	3. inclination of orbit           \
	4. longitude of the ascending node > (what plane is it in)
	5. argument of the perihelion (how is it oriented in that plane)
	6. ???
	7. time of perihelion passage (where in the orbit is it)

There are corrections needed because there's more than just the star
and the planet. But corrections of the sort the ships will need aren't
*that* complex. 

Going by current practice, each sector or subsector will have an
ephemeris published for it annually. You buy it for a few credits (say
20-50) and plug it into the astrogation systems. It has the corrections
that are useful for the year it was printed to cover. You can sort of
kludge around having an old one, but that's a *really* stupid thing to
do. The IISS (or equivalent organization in other jurisdictions) has
surveyed the systems well enough (or gotten astronomical data good
enough) from the natives so that they can produce data that'll let you
get positions accurate to a meter or so up to 10 years in advance. But
they only release a given years data 6 months in advance "just in
case". 

For areas that don't have a widespread government or that are "wild",
you can attempt to project old data ahead (positions will be close
enough to get from jump exit to the planet unless you are low on fuel),
or you can check at the port before you leave for the latest data they
have (see below) or you can try to use ship's sensors yourself.

From the old Alien modules, it's clear that a ship can detect *some* if
not all of the stars within 3 parsecs, as the "unknown space" rules
printed in several of them, allow discovering stars 3 parsecs away.

In module 4 (Vargr), they go into a bit more detail, even though it
disagrees with the unknown space rules (which are identical in all the
modules they appear in). In modelue 4 they state that modern starships
can detect worlds at a distance of up to 2 parsecs. It takes about a
day. This includes detecting gas giants.

It goes on to state that any type A port can provide data on any world
within 5 parsecs, any type B can provide data on worlds within 3
parsecs. And this is *good* data. So I'd say that for areas that don't
have an "empire" doing the charting, each A or B port has data as noted
above. That plus the "sector maps" should allow you to get around
without *too* much trouble.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 04:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Tom Ellis wrote:

> Two different things, regardless of combat system. Dampers affect nuclear
> warheads by rendering them innefective via manipulation of nuclear forces.
> Sandcasters diffuse and deflect lasers. They are different defenses for
> different attacts. A damper would do nothing against a laser, and sand
> does nothing to stop a warhead.

  Okay, but I seem to recall that sandcasters can be used to target
missiles, at least in some versions of Traveller space combat, by acting
as giant shotguns (in one version) or as blocking the damage (if missiles
are treated as det-lasers).  Am I miss-remembering something that was
actually just a discussion of possible combat systems?


> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Tom Ellis
> tellis@telerama.lm.com
> http://www.lm.com/~tellis/
> 
> "A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
> _______________________________________________________ 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:38:08 +1000
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: FTL communications

Actually, a good form of FTL communication is already in use by everyone in
the world today.

It's called gossip.



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul A Harris
Better known as Harry.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have made it so much
fun!
								Me.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:37:01 +1000
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: FTL communications

At 10:10 22/04/97 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>In an effort to atone for my sins, I thought TML might be interested in the
>following (blatently ripped off from April's Scientific American):
>
>"To send a message faster than the speed of light, you could build a
>machine like the one I have designed.  The machine is made up of two
>pulleys, each with a braking system connected by a belt, and one of the
>pulleys has a motor.  When you start the motor, both pulleys will spin at
>the same speed.  If you then apply the brake at one end, you will stop or
>slow both ends at the same time.
>
>If you place one end of the device near the earth and the other near a
>distant place, such as Pluto, you could, by applying the brake on the earth
>side, send a message (Morse Code style) to an observer on Pluto.  The
>person on Pluto could send a response by applying his own brake, and the
>whole converstation could take place in seconds instead of the hours that
>it would take a radio message to travel this distance."  Tyler Burry,
>Moncton, New Brunswick
>
>I do hope the new Fire, Fusion and Steel will include such 'alternative'
>technologies!  :-)
>
>tc
>


Wait, you can't.... oh why bother.. I bet by the time this gets sent to the
list a hundred other people will be telling us all about the problems with
this :)





- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul A Harris
Better known as Harry.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have made it so much
fun!
								Me.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:48:30 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: "The Fifth Element"

Eris wrote:

>
>Don't be so sensitive!  I liked HH too, and the 5th Element *may* have the
>same panache..it stars *Bruce Willis* after all.
>
>OTOH, Judge Dredd was Just Dreadfull! ;->

	Hey.  Judge Dredd is IMHO the best lawyer movie ever made :).

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:56:26 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

J_Lambert wrote:

[snip]
>
>My question is: Are the reconfigurable batteries allowable and how long
>should it take to
>reconfigure them. I stated that it would take a few hours. Should  it be
>possible to
>reconfigure the batteries more quickly, say during a battle?
[snip]


	I think that it's such a common sense idea that this ability is
probably wired in wherever you have multiple MFD's and would take maybe a
minute, not hours.  It makes too much sense not to be.

	I really liked that idea...


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:05:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

BTW, there's some discussion on precisely this topic in the
GDW-beta archives, from either its first or second year
of existence. (Can't remember the exact URL off the top of
my head :  www.qrc.com/~wildstar is close enough, follow
the heirarchy from there.)


At 12:15 PM 4/19/97 -0800, Kenji wrote:
>John Bogan wrote:
[snippage]
>>Human clans are stuck with extra sons.
>
>Interesting!  Perhaps there's a disproportionately large number of human
>ihatei roaming around the fringes of Aslan territory, then.  Also, if the
>human clans adopted polygyny as well, there could be a real shortage of
>marriage partners even for first-born sons.

That might only be a problem at the lowest social levels
(though if that's the level you're in, it IS a problem).
More likely the effect will be felt as a reduced pool
of skilled workers in "female" areas -- like technical fields.

Two probable remedies:
1) ally with a biologically Aslan clan, trading technical
and business expertise for military strength (extra sons
means extra troops);
2) contract with aslan corporations to provide a number
of services that Clans would normaly take care of in-house.

Most likely is a combination of the two.


>Kinda far out here, but:  maybe these biologically human Aslan drew on
>their Solomani ancestors' genetic engineering expertise to skew their own
>birth pattern to a 3:1 F:M ratio?  Not sure how it could be done, though --
>any of the biologist-types on the list care to comment?

Who needs genetics? Just abort "excess" males.
However, that sort of thing doesn't seem to 
happen, or ihatei problems would be a bit smaller.
Personally, I wouldn't have them "fix" the ratio
because it's much more interesting making them adapt.

>>What about inter-clan marraiges? Allied Aslan clans
>>may inter-marry to strenghten bonds, so what happens
>>when one clan is not biologically aslan? Do political
>>marraiges still take place? And does the Aslans'
>>intricate codes of behavior include mandates about
>>marital "duties" for husbands and wives? <wince>.
>
>Wow.  Never thought of this one.

In the GDW-Beta discussion, the suggestion came up
that some human males might opt to become "socially
female," i.e., a biologically human male decides
(very early on) to be treated in all ways as a 
female, something akin to becoming a monk or a
enuch in the Chinese Imperial Court -- they might
consider what they get to be worth more than what
they give up. (It would help explain Aslans' slowness
to pick up on outsider humans' visual cues about
what sex they are -- the last broad-shouldered,
flat-chested, full-bearded human they met had been
an inventory accountant for Clan Manysyllables,
obviously a female).

On the other hand, the Aslan might consider that
to be a form of deception, thus dishonorable,
thus they don't allow it.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:05:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 02:03 PM 4/21/97 MET, Volker Greimann wrote:

>Well i realize that, but it still strikes me as a weird name:
>You wouldn't call an english-heritage bad guy Sir Arthur of Doom or 
>anything now, wouldn't you? (Well maybe, if you wrote Marvel Comics 
>you would choose a name like that, but that's another story!)

You are, of course referring to Herr Doktor Viktor von Doom,
Monarch of Latveria (somewhere[fictional] in the northern Balkans,
probably near Austria), who's supposed to be ethnically
Gypsy. Kinda your whole argument in a nutshell (an armored,
booby-trapped, robot-doubled nutshell, though :)


I think it's a legacy of the combination of Mary Shelly's
Frankenstein (both the original novel and the Lon Chaney
film, in some different ways for each), the fact that
a number of early "world famous scientists" -- from Einstein
to von Braun -- spoke english with heavy German accents
(for obvious reasons), and American xenophobia: that
particular stereotype was established in the period after
WWI, when anti-German bias was rather strong due to
both the war and immigrants. 

JB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:18:02 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Missiles

>I'm also not sure where these kinetic kill missiles are getting their
>kinetic energy from.  It can't be from turret launchers, though a
>long spinal accelerator at high g-s can give a respectable energy
>(1GJ/Kg).  Certainly the missiles themselves can't carry that much
>energy for a reaction drive.  Let's ignore energy-creating thrusters
>for a moment :).  The simplest way of storing lots of energy in the
>missile seems to me to be by putting a nuke in it.

Or using fission in a controlled manner as a fission drive or using fusion
in a controlled manner as a fusion drive. Fission and fusion bombs use
these reactions to release the fuels energy rapidly instead of slowly as in
drives.
Also, why not looking at the nuke missiles with neutron detectors etc? And
sweep them with those handy dandy nuclear dampers? My greatest objection to
space missiles being pumped X-ray is canon. On the one hand canon says most
civilian ships have missiles yet the Imperium is extremely stingy on the
use and ownership of nukes as in the Imperial Rules of war. It might be OK
for those playing mostly naval battles in Traveller but the civilian trader
(OK, smuggler is a better word) cannot possibly be allowed to own nukes or
is there an equivalent of National Rifle Association in the future pushing
for private nukes?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:27:08 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

>> These switches, I don't know about...but I think it's something to do
>> with induction.
>
>Um, aren't they called Induction Switches? ;->
>
>Eris

 In the future capacitance switches will be used instead as a grace to
nonconductive alien fingers. They're a bit expensive today but just wait a
couple of thousand years and they might come up with cheaper ways of making
them.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:23:47 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

>Actually IIRC I think there are some forms of life here that use copper in
>an analogous way to iron...I'm pretty sure they're all bacteria though.
>And chlorophyll actually has a magnesium based 'heme' molecule at it's
>core structurally very similar to the heme moiety of hemoglobin. I'd have
>to look back at my biochem books to make sure, though.

Squids have copper instead of iron for oxygen transportation in their
greenish blood.

"It's five chambered heart pumped out a diminishing stream of greenish
blood from its severed tentacle."

Yes we do have pulp Sci-Fi creatures living in our oceans and they're
intelligent as well.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 13:11:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Subject: Who are we/biographies

Having finally waded through the last few lists, it must be my turn:

I was born in Skye in the west of Scotland in 1962 - and to anyone who   
asks I'm 25 years old (except the mornings after I've been drinking with   
my father, when I'm slightly in excess of three million years old). ;-)

I began wargaming at school in 1975 and roleplaying in 1976 when I   
discovered a brown boxed set of D&D in amongst the wargames rules at my   
local hobby shop. I picked up one of the first copies of Traveller into   
the UK in 1978 (I know because I watched them unpack the box).

I joined the Fleet Air Arm (Royal Navy) in 1978 - well, I actually only   
went into the recruiting centre to shelter from the rain - and served   
nine years as a weapons electrical mechanician working on Lynx   
helicopters.

Between 1979 and 1986, I also ran Traveller tournaments and events for   
Games Workshop, in the days when they were worth working for. In   
addition, I helped out on a couple of issues of White Dwarf and some   
proofreading of the Traveller stuff printed by GW. My association with GW   
ended when Steve and Ian sold up.

I'm not ashamed (these pills are wonderful!) to say that I was a member   
of the ill-fated GDW International Demo Team in the early nineties, for   
which I got an odd-coloured polo shirt which now lines the cat basket.   
Fortunately I didn't get roped into demonstrating Mythos.

I'm not going to list the RPGs, boardgames and wargames I have owned or   
run. Suffice to say, I keep selling the buggers and I still can't get   
into my study for games! I have a soft spot in my heart for Traveller   
(even MT, which I hated with a passion until someone gave me the errata).

These days I am a technical author for a human resources software house.   
In my spare time (ha!), I write freelance stuff for the hobby - including   
some material for Mileu 0, although IG cut all my work about the Vargr   
and Cleon's emancipation of the Vargr slaves (it made for good background   
and adventure stuff, but it was a bit contentious - maybe it'll see print   
in the alien book, but I'm not holding my breath). I am also the SF   
editor for Valkyrie magazine (a UK Independent RPG mag). In addition to   
all of that, I am writing a book about the British invasion of Tibet in   
1903/04 (British colonial history being a fascination of mine). Finally,   
I'm trying hard to re-learn my Mother's language, Gaelic, having   
forgotten all I ever knew as a child.

At the moment I'm trying to find time to rework the Traveller Adventure   
to run in Aslan space [thanks to the two guys who emailed me Traveller   
word generators, the task will be a bit easier]. My group are currently   
in the final stages of another Aslan-based campaign based loosely on the   
story of Beren and Luthien from the Silmarillion. If there's any   
interest, I'll post a short write-up when the campaign ends.

I'll leave the stats for another day.

Slan Leat (that's cheerio in Gaelic)

David

david.elrick@ps.co.uk

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Here three pretty girls we see - Faith, Hope and Charity.
Faith was tested first you know, at the Chelsea Flower Show.
Hope was abandoned first they say, on the sands at Whitley Bay.
But, while her parents were in Frome, Charity began at home.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:57:55 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: My THUDDD Comments/Ship Combat.

Dr. Mark Clark wrote:

[snip]
>
>  Finally, I seem to have offended Roderick in my evaluation of his
>Bludgeon design.  I'm sorry if I seemed harsh - that was more due to the
>fact that the ship met so few of the design criteria.  I did not mean to
>imply it was not a capable warship - far from it.  I'm sure it could kick
>ass in a straight-up fight.  I also agree that the particle weapon makes a
>good deal of sense as well, though in this design it seem to crowd out
>lots of other stuff (as does the M6 drive).  I just don't think it fits
>the mission given, and I rated it accordingly.

	No no no!  I am not offended!  As I've repeatedly pointed out, I
bozed up in not reading the mission criteria, and I believe that it fully
deserved harsh evaluation.  It's just that I disagreed on your take on the
need for dampers and meson screens (I probably would have left them out
even had I gone a more reasonable route), and felt that you'd
underestimated the combat effectiveness of putting the biggest PA gun and
five of the biggest lasers available at TL-12 into a 700 td hull.  Like
someone pointed out in email I was thinking more in terms of a pocket
destroyer than a patrol craft :).

	And I agree that the discussion is great...  I think that we're
thoroughly testing the ship design systems here.

	Onto another tangent, I'm starting to think that we ought to
seriously consider KKM weapons.  I came up with this idea last night for a
KKM anti-missile PD system involving a battery of 50 or so 1mm VRF Gauss
weapons with 5-meter barrels and a huge ammo dump crammed into a large
turret.  The applications and implications are pretty obvious, and in a
head-on ship-to-ship pass, it'd probably be incredibly effective against
ships as well.  IMHO, whatever ship combat system Ken bashes together
really ought to address the issue of KKM's; if it doesn't it's going to
have a huge credibility problem (in fact any system that doesn't does too
IMHO).

	Back to the grind!

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 13:58:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sex In Traveller (slightly off-topic)

Someone (I forget who - and I'm not scanning back through fifty lists to   
find out!) was talking about Phil Foglio's XXXenophile.

I'm familiar with the card game, but I hadn't realised there were comics   
or graphic novels too (HM Customs and Excise protecting my mind from the   
wilder excesses of the sordid colonials - regardless of my views on the   
matter). I realise this is off-topic, but could someone mail me   
(off-list, naturally) some details such as titles, etc., please?

Kind Regards

David

david.elrick@ps.co.uk

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Here three pretty girls we see - Faith, Hope and Charity.
Faith was tested first you know, at the Chelsea Flower Show.
Hope was abandoned first they say, on the sands at Whitley Bay.
But, while her parents were in Frome, Charity began at home.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:29:37 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

> Oooh, what if you posited an organic conductor made up of intracellular
> protein nano-tubes, down which either electrons (metallic ions?) or small
> transmitter molecules travelled, not unlike a bullet zipping down a rail
> gun, using protein configuration to electrically propel it down the
> channel.  This _might_ be slower than terrestrial Na/K/Ca transfer, but in
> a low-ion (high-metal?) environment, it might actually work.
> 
> Other ideas?

	Yeah, I read an article in Discover a couple years back where a 
scientist had discovered microtubules in the brain, each of which 
contained a single electron. He argued that the tubules propogated the 
wave motion of the electron when it decided to be a wave, and this was 
somehow related to our ability to have concious thought. If a species 
was built on the basis of this sort of tubule nervous system, where the 
propogated waves were the nerve impulses (perhaps several small tubules 
acting in series or something, I don't know how fast it'd be). Of 
course, that would require definition and control of how electrons 
decide to be particles/waves/wartcles/etc., a subject somewhat out of my 
league.

> Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

Ryan Christensen	Soon to be Man in Black

litefoot@feist.com

"Any law enacted with more than fifty words contains at least one 
loophole."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:46:30 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

J_Lambert wrote:
 
> I would also like to comment on bunks for the crew. Given a choice between
> more
> firepower and more comfortable sleeping quarters, I think the decision for
> a warship
> would always be more firepower. Even on a larger ship, the larger crew
> would still make
> this a clear cut choice. (I just watched "Das Boat"; at least I'm not hot
> bunking, although
> ....) A patrol cruiser would generally be in a situation where the crew

	That was definitely the case during WWI and WWII, where most of the 
individuals were draftees, and submarines were just becoming practical for 
long-distance patrols and such. The crews HAD to be there; they didn't have much 
choice with the draft. SAme with Korea and Vietnam. Current shipbuilding doctrine is 
moving to more comfortable crew accomodations; not Airport Hilton, but definitely 
better than hot-bunking. Granted, mosts ships in today's navy are cramped 
quarters-wise, but this is probably due to the fact that the majority of them (at 
least the ones I read about in Tom Clancy's _Marine_) are over 20 years old. The new 
LPD-17, for instance, will be significantly roomier. I agree with what someone else 
said: crew accomodations have an effect on morale, and morale directly affects 
efficency. This (probably) wouldn't matter for patrols of only a few days, but 
definitely would for any ship that stayed out for, oh, a week or more.

Ryan Christensen  	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1239
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1240



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?
A few questions...and comments.
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Spock
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Asteroid belt question
Traveller movies (was Re: Of Interest to UK Traveller Fans)
Re: Biography
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re:  John Lambert's UPP Suggestion
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1235
Gays in Pocket Empires
Re: FTL communications
Re: FTL communications
Re: IG catalog/deluxe traveller
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re:  April THUDDD; whoops....
Re: Task System Redux
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)
Re: What is Science?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:59:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?

>  Okay, but I seem to recall that sandcasters can be used to target
>missiles, at least in some versions of Traveller space combat, by acting
>as giant shotguns (in one version) or as blocking the damage (if missiles
>are treated as det-lasers).  Am I miss-remembering something that was
>actually just a discussion of possible combat systems?

I think sandcasters were mentioned as giant shotguns in Striker 2:1:st
edition but never in space combat as far as I can tell but I've been known
to be wrong before :)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:55:38 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: A few questions...and comments.

First, a comment on sandcasters vs. nuclear dampers:

	IMHO, dampers are useless against anything but missles, while 
sandcasters can defend against the major space combat weapon: lasers 
(including detonation ones). This makes nuke dampers more of a special 
case defense weapon, kinda like meson screens, only with alternate 
defense strategies available.
	I feel that nuke dampers would become relatively inefficent 
compared to true PD systems (like the 7-gun turret in Joe's archives), 
as they can't engage multiple targets, and don't have any range to speak 
of. Even if aforementioned 7-gun turret had a damage USP of ?/1-0-0-0, 
it would still be able to knock down missle reliably at long enough 
ranges to make det-lasers useless.
	One idea, though: if a small nuke detonated in the vicinity of a 
ship (say BL range 0), even if it didn't damage the ship, would it still 
cause a sensor white-out (ala BL)? If so, you could sneak a couple of 
small missles (using IR guidance or something that wouldn't have been 
blinded, say, turned on by remote) through, as the PD systems would be 
unable to detect them until it's too late.
	Has anyone played around with 3G3? I loved the design rules in 
FF&S, and was wondering if the 3G3 rules were as good for personal 
weapons. Any comments? How about design rules for starship weapons? Is a 
new FF&S style book coming out for T4?
	One question for TNE: a bad guy in Battle Dress (AV 13) gets 
fired on by a couple PCs.
	1. Does he suffer any blunt trauma from the non-penetrating 
bullets? The rules seem to indicate he would, but it seems 
counter-intuitive...
	2. He gets hit with a 2.5cm HEAT grenade. The die is rolled, 
yielding a final PV of, say, 28 (base 25 + 3 on the roll). 28-13 is 15. 
How much damage does the wearer take? 15 points? 15d6? I know this would 
damage a comparably armored vehicle, but no rules for this sort of 
situation were given...
	I just joined the list a few days ago, so forgive my easily 
answered question: what is THUDD? I know it's a design contest of some 
sort, but that's about it. Is there an archive I can read back digests 
of TML at? 
	One more thing (for now...): could anyone tell me how to 
subscribe to the GDW-beta list?
	Thanks!

Ryan Christensen 	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:02:40 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

Anders Backman wrote:
>  In the future capacitance switches will be used instead as a grace to
> nonconductive alien fingers. They're a bit expensive today but just wait a
> couple of thousand years and they might come up with cheaper ways of making
> them.

I recently was working at a Macaroni Grill here in Wichita that 
incorporated touch-screen computers as part of their order-taking 
system (kinda like a touch-screen register). The thing that intrigued me 
was that it would detect touches by a credit card (I used to use the 
corner of the card to punch in the number if it didn't swipe right). Was 
this a special kind of screen, one of those capacitance switches, or 
something else entirely?

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:14:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Spock

> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
> 
> Ick. A xenobiology thread could get ugly real quick. In terrestrial
> life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
> copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho') I imagine that
> salinity levels differ between different aliens, possibly within
> different branches of humaniti.

If I'm correct, there's a type of crab (horseshoe?) that has kinda creamy
blue blood that uses copper instead of iron to carry oxygen.

I also saw in the paper (??) a small frog that has it's chromosomes
on quartets instead of pairs like everything else...

There's a lot of variety on this here planet!

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:24:38 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 02:47 AM 4/22/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 09:19 PM 4/21/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Triva:  What was Dudley Do-Right's horse's name?
>
>Horse.

Wow, that was fast!  Just goes to show, never play trivia games on the Net
- -- one persons's inscrutable trivia is another person's profound epiphany. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:24:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

 
> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
> like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
> relative position is quite stable and fixed.

They move nothing like Empire Strikes back.  First, you'd be lucky
to be able to see another asteroid if you were standing on one (very
lucky, actually).
 
They move in various orbits, although they would probably be a
little eccentric.  Since the reason for objects in a solar system
orbiting in the same direction is conservation of angular momentum,
things tend to rotate in a plane.  There will be exceptions, but
this is the probable layout.  As a result, you could move out of
plane and avoid the "dense" part of an asteroid belt without dodging
around (see other comments about density of asteriod belts :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:24:34 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Traveller movies (was Re: Of Interest to UK Traveller Fans)

At 09:34 AM 4/22/97 GMT0, terry.williams@luton.ac.uk wrote:
>Hi,
>	Yesterday (monday 21st April) I stumbled across a video release of a
>very travelleresque film. After 16 years the powers that be have finally
>decided to release the film Heavy Metal on video. I just thought I'd pass on
>the good news.

I missed this somehow the first time around, though I do remember it coming
out.  I think I was just married and very poor. :)  I saw it on video
recently... and wished I had still missed it.  Ick.  Of course YMMV.  

OTOH, "Ghost in the Shell" might be sort of anime-Traveller-esque, if you
don't mind lots and lots and lots of shots involving quasi-cyborg breasts.  

What other movies feel like "Traveller movies" to you?  


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:39:09 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Biography

Hi All:

Since we're talking biographies, here's mine.

Ex-USAF Missile Launch Office (Cone Head) and Combat Planner.

Educated as a biologist, BS Syracuse, aviation
safety engineer, MS Embry-Riddle, working on
industrial safety, PhD, Columbia Southern.

Gaming since 1965 (first board game),
Traveller fanatic since 1977,
Napoleonics since 1979 (Austrians),
Rolemaster since 1980,
Historical re-enactor since 1985, European Napoleonic Association,
Ensign 42nd RoF "Blackwatch", strong on the military history of
the Highland Regiments and camp life during the wars
parttime safety engineer and historian for Philmont Scout Ranch, since 1992.

Eric

Educate  --  Lead  --  Serve

Eric T. Holmes, Safety Engineer
JCI Technical Assurance Department
Health and Safety Branch
PO Box 50    MS: G750
Los Alamos, NM 87544  USA

Tel:  505-665-4894
Fax:  505-665-1887

Voice Pager:  104-1628

              ~~~~~
             (-0^0-)
- ---------oOOo--( )--oOOo---------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:52:02 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

My Favorite Strship Combat System?

Mayday, modified with some High Guard.

Reason:  Ease of play and easily converted to
three dimensional play.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:50:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

>> A jump takes 7ish days.  7 days at c is around 1200 AU.  Assume jump
>> uncertainty spreads at c from around your target point, using the same
>> +-10%, and you get a 120 AU range -- still too big.  But I can't help
>> feeling that c and the time uncertainty *do* play into this.  Anybody want
>> to pick this up?
>
>I've been thinking on it too, but so far nothing has come to mind.
>Thanks for checking those two options. They're obviously out the
>window.

 But what will happen when we misjump a parsec? Will the time uncertainty
be around 3 years? If not, why is large misjumps different from small ones
(except by the distance misjumped)? Is there more than quantitative
differences here?
(I'm not shure what I like best myself)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:06:00 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

I always wondered why Jumpspace "time" was listed
as "one week". Why not instantaneous?  If not,
why not 24 hours?  I think the arbitrary could be
changed.

Another Canon Heretic!

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:49:00 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re:  John Lambert's UPP Suggestion

Wow.  There are people that think alike on TNL.

Not having any idea what the IG UPP conversions
would be, I'm taking a stab at listing my experiences
as a CT character.

Holmes, Eric Thomas James of the Family Holmberg
Father:  Holmberg, Lars Ture
Mother:  Palumbino, Jeanette Anna

Roots:  Solomani, Huguenot Swede and Roman Italian
Born:   Solomani States of America

UPP:  5 9 5 9 C 7*       * previously 9 while in COAC

Service Record:

Reserve Officer Training Course

10 Years COAC:  Planetary Defense Gunner  6
(probably more like a 1 with current upgrades
and lack of use)

2 Years COAC:  Adminstration  2

Additional Skills:  Gun Combat (Pistol)    1
                               (Shot Gun)  3
                               (Musket)    2

                    Interrogation       2

                    Chemical Warfare    1

                    Leadership          1

                    Tactics             1

                    Land Navigation     2

Civilian Record:

College:  6 years and continuing

Skills:   Biologist    2  (degradation due to lack of use)
          Mathematics  2    ditto
          Chemistry    2    ditto
          Adminstration  3  currently in use
          Research      2

Other Civilian Skills:

Streetwise:  1
Outdoor Survival:  3  (Being a Boy Scout Leader can help)
Vacc Suit:  3         (I actually use SCBA and Type A Excursion Suits)
Swimming:  3          (Two years as a coastal life guard should suffice)

I know some of the skills listed may not be hard CT skills
but they describe what I feel I might be capable of.

Eric

                                           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:42:50 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)
> 
> Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the aseroids
> where moving toward each others in all direction
> 
> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
> like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
> relative position is quite stable and fixed.
> 
> Do Astronomers have the answer?

Well, I'm only an armchair astronomer, but I can tell you that the
movements of the asteroid field was the *smallest* problem. The big
problem was the proximity and quantity of asteroids.

Asteroids are *much* farther apart, and therefore the concentration (at
least in our belt) is *much* lower. A belt like that one wouldn't last
very long; the asteroids would smash into each other until all that was
left was a few big ones and space dust. Hmmmmm... Maybe it was a fresh
field... the Death Star might have been taking some target practice in
the Hoth system. :-)

By the way, if the asteroids relative positions of asteroids moving in
concentric orbits are not stable and fixed, as the asteroids in inner
orbits are moving faster than asteroids in outer orbits. Also, iirc,
asteroid orbits tend to have differing ellipticity, so their orbits
frequently cross each other.

The unrealistic asteroid field didn't stop me from enjoying the scene
where an asteroid hits the bridge of a Star Destroyer, and then cuts to
Darth Vader's holovid conference where a certain Destroyer Captain puts
his arms in the air as his image flickers out. . . 
- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
                          Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:37:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1235

> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> 
>   I just wanted to make some additional comments about the Montcalm design
> from Gasbag.  I felt confident about all my comments when i sent the
> previous post off, but something bothered me about the Montcalm - mostly
> the high price.  I went back, and found something I had overlooked - all
> those gunners.  There were lots of laser turrets (20 if I remeber
> correctly), but the ratings given in the battery information don't check
> out - they seem very low, with no long range damage at all.

Yep. I miscalculated. I may also have over-calculated gunners - for
turrets grouped into batteries, I assigned one gunner per turret,
as well as one gunner for the MFD, which is how I read SSDS. The turret
gunners live in the turrets (surprise!), the MFD gunners co-ordinate
the action of the turrets, forming batteries from the bridge.

The lasers should have read 
4x Heavy Laser (+5) 1/2-2-1-0
4x Light Laser (+5) 1/2-1-1-0

which still isn't so great, but there's lot of lasers, even if they're
not so so strong. According to the T4 space combat system (broken as it may
be) this should be just as effective, if not more so, than one big laser.

Besides, one could always re-organize the batteries (there's a total of
8 heavy turrets and 12 light turrets).

>   Now, my other comments about low manuever, lesser quality sensors, no
> meson screen, and bunks for the crew still apply, but it sure seems like
> these lasers should do more damage, at least compared to some QSDS
> designs.  This may be related to that laser rating discussion I've been
> seeing recently - hope someone can fix it.

Well, I designed a 4G and a 2G version, but I submitted this one
because it was more heavily armed. drop the weapons to 3x each and
it'll do 4G with all crew in G-tanks. I don't think meson screens are
that big a deal for most of the actions this ship will be involved in
and again, 10A 4P 10J (??) is the best you can get in SSDS.

As for bunks, well, OK. But hey, it's the Navy, not Tukera Lines.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:46:15 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Gays in Pocket Empires

Yo Folks,
     I haven't been following the other Gays thread but I can guess its
contents.
     Anyway, Pocket Empires largely concerns families, marriages, children
and how you can use them to run create empires out in the outback of the
Imperium. The following paragraph (or something like it) was edited from
the final version:

     With the barriers to fertility removed by technology there is nothing
preventing marriages between two people of the same gender or even
different species. Similarly some families may not have marriage at all but
propagate through autogenisis or cloning. What they gain in solidarity they
lose in potential trade agreements. In such cases the referee will have to
use their discression in determining children's genetic dice.

     I removed it, myself, before final submission for two main reasons:
1) The section didn't lose much from having it removed. Certainly not
enough to warrant the uneducated criticisim it might engender from
Concerned Parents Against Everything.
2) Anyone with half a brain could work that out anyway.
     Fair enough?

     Now the section on arranged marriages and divorce, _that_ generated
quite a bit of internal discussion... Ask me sometime in the pub...

     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:05:19 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: FTL communications

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:38:08 +1000,
paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:

>Actually, a good form of FTL communication is already in use by everyone=
 in
>the world today.
>
>It's called gossip.

I have heard that bad news travels faster :D



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:04:19 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: FTL communications

tc wrote:

>>In an effort to atone for my sins, I thought TML might be interested in
the
>>following (blatently ripped off from April's Scientific American):
<snip ludicrous but fun messaging system>

>>I do hope the new Fire, Fusion and Steel will include such
>>'alternative' >technologies!  :-)

Paul Harris responded:
>Wait, you can't.... oh why bother.. I bet by the time this gets sent >to
the list a hundred other people will be telling us all about the >problems
with this :)

Just in case the list is about to be inundated, don't forget it was the
*April* issue of SciAm.  That was supposed to be a clue.  (As was the
smiley)

Paul quoted himself:
>I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being >pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have >made it so
much fun!
        >Me.


I knew someone would spot that.

tc
Pardon the subtlety.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:27:40 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Re: IG catalog/deluxe traveller

>T4 Deluxe has the changed task system - changed as given in the T4 Game=20
>Screen.
>
>T4 Deluxe will have a task library, more vehicles, a cleaned up QSDS, and=
=20
>hopefully no typos. =20

When and where will it be available. Is it in the UK yet? Is it a limited
print run only? I would like to get hold of one if possible.

>-Joe

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:31:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

Quoth Nicolas LEJEUNE:
> I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)
> Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the aseroids
> where moving toward each others in all direction

In a real asteroid field, you are unlikely to be able to see one rock from
another without a good telescope and someone telling you where to look.
(Small asteroid "moons" like Ida's excepted).  So, yes, that and most
artistic portrayals of asteroid belts (like the cover of 2300's Nyotekundu
sourcebook, aaaargh) as chock-ful of tumbling and colliding chunks of rock
acting like a celestial Cuisinart to any ships so foolish as to enter...

...are entirely fictional and unrealistic, though they sure look exciting.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:16 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re:  April THUDDD; whoops....

>	It would seem that Hengabar is going to have to confiscate the
>design bureau's pogo sticks again..: my THUDDD design is 100td over the
>max, is incapable of wilderness refuelling, and does not provide medical
>facilities for the crew.  Given that I neglected to read the design
>requirements before designing it, I'm amazed that it actually meets some of
>them (the ones about combat effectiveness and fleet ops).

That's nothing to be amazed about, I would imagine a pair of roller blades 
form FSY would meet requirements for combat effectiveness and fleet ops :)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:12 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Task System Redux

>Truth be told, I'm not even going to have traditional Skill Levels *during*
>character generation. Each time a PC get's a specific skill the player will
>figure the addition to the Skill Point total and just put that on the
>character sheet. Of course, my system is a little more involved, but I'm
>not ready to talk about that right now.

A suggestion to prevent the "sameness" that prevails when all characters have
a Pilot-1/Medic-3/Gunner-2/what-have-you: When the PC gets the skill, have
them roll a d3 <g> to determine the exact number of "experience levels" they
receive and record that rather than giving 3 "el's" per skill level. This would
give more character variety as well as end the unrealistic  assumption that 
character A and B both learn the exact same amount of information about
Engineering during their one-year course.

Of course, it also reintroduces the d3 into a system determined to be rid of it!
Entropy and chaos, boys, ya can't fight it! <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:03:39 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

 
> My Favorite Strship Combat System?
> 
> Mayday, modified with some High Guard.
> 
> Reason:  Ease of play and easily converted to
> three dimensional play.

If you have 3 or fewer ships Mayday is 3d out of the box :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:19 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Computer technology at TL12-15 (communications)

><< My only question is whether there is a similarly nifty way to do visual
>output? Audio output can be handled through a medium-sized earring with a
>bone conduction speaker (on the back of the earring where it touches the
>head. But I can see any) way to do visual output w/o screens or
>holofields. >>
>
>RGB lasers projecting it directly onto the retina.

My favorite has always been a contact lens that goes in the eye and acts as
a monitor/HUD. For the more hardcore inclined, it can be implanted into the
eye as an artificial lens. The material of the lens/implant is made of a LED/
LCD-ish material that is controlled by a short distance transmitter of some 
sort, possibly built within the earring that has the speaker. The more expensive
models are "one-way" and no one can see the light and colors/patterns they 
produce but you, while many of the standard models give your eyes a 
glittering, lighted, color-shifting appearance on close observation, leading
to the slang term "kaleidoscope eyes".

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:14 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: What is Science?

>The trick to the laws of thermodynamics is to understand that they are
>*statistical* in nature, that is, based on probabilities, stabilized by
>the Law of Large Numbers.  For systems of less than a few million
>particles, they become less and less aplicable, as individual variancnes
>in behavior among the particles begin to rise above the 'noise' level of
>mass-average behavior.  Also, being statistical, the laws *can*, *very
>theoretically*, fail on the macro scale.  There is no physical law
>*preventing* that teak kettle full of water from freezing solid when you
>put it on the stove.  However, and my p-chem prof actually *derived this*
>for us (!), if the entire mass of the known universe were composed of
>teapots on stoves, endlesly boiling, throughout the entire bang/crunch
>cyle of 50 billion years, and there were a trillion other tea-kettle
>universes doing the same, there'd be a 50/50 chance of *one* kettle
>freezing on the stove.  Now *that* is what I call a memorable lecture.

So, it's not impossible, just highly *improbable*. So, all we need to do
is figure out just how improbable it is, get a really hot cup of tea....  <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1240
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1241



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IR Masking
re: Asteroid belt question
Re: BSCS
re: Missiles
Re: FTL communications
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: missing jump drive table
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: A few questions...and comments.
Greetings (Was Re: Who We Are)
Re: IG catalog/deluxe traveller
My UPP write-up
Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Genetics (Was Re: Gays in the Imperium)
Re: Asteroid belt question
Lanthanum Uses
RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Losing our precious cultural heritage (of course off topic)
Variety
Re: Starship Combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:07 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: IR Masking

>Ok, how about this.  Ships require jump fields to keep the physics and
>environment of jumpspace (defined as a dimension) away from the ship
>and its crew.  Collapse this field and the ship precipitates violently
>out into normal space at a molecular level over a path of several
>billion kilometres.  Since this field is necessary according to canon,
>you cannot produce a hole in which to dump heat from our universe
>without breaching this "barrier" (such as the jump field) which is
>designed to prevent the dangerous interactions between two dimensions.

What hole? We're discussing an opening into another dimension within
the ship that doesn't interact with the jump space dimension at all. Two
seperate dimensions, no overlap, no contact, no holes in the jump space
barrier. And just like the jump dimension needs a jump field to be produced to
act as a barrier between it and our dimension, the "heat sink" dimension 
requires heat input to act as a barrier between it and us. 

>> But you can't introduce _new_ features to invalidate
>> my suggestion. I postulate that a dimension has been found that can be
>> used as a heat sink. The reverse is not true.
>
>The reverse is not true *ONLY* because you did not include it in your
>original post.  I only included it to expand the thinking regarding
>transporting energy from one dimension to another.  It is not
>"untrue".

This makes no sense at all. He stated that a dimension has been found that
allows you to dump heat. If you add in a dimension that we can suck 
heat out of, you are no longer within the terms of his game world, and 
are not exhibiting the "internal coherence" that has been written in stone
on this list as of late.

>> No dimension has been found
>> (either because it dosen't exist, or, well, because it hasen't been =
>found
>> yet) that will allow anyone to draw energy from it.
>
>And no dimension has been found that allows you to do what you are
>trying to do.

Yes it has, he just stated that such a dimension exists/has been found. 
Please keep the real world and the game world example seperate please.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:19:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Asteroid belt question

>I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
>like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
>relative position is quite stable and fixed.

Good lord, no. Your typical movie asteroid field bears no resemblence
whatsoever to the Real World (tm.) 

Asteroids aren't on perfectly concentric orbits, so they do collide...
but not very often. The reason for that is that our asteroid belt is
incredibly less dense than anything every shown in a movie - there are a few
thousand big asteroids spread over a few trillion cubic kilometers. 
You could travel through the asteroid belt for a million years without ever
getting close enough to one to see it as anything more than a dot of light.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:13:01 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: BSCS

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:38:55 +0100, you wrote:

> Note- Someone mentioned that the phrase 'battle line' was wrong for 3D ship
> combat. I agree that the phrase is wrong, but I still envisage formations
> (planes and other geometric forms) of warships, shielding a reserve... Very
> Doc Smith, I know! 'Battle Line' is just an abstract way of expressing this.

I never had a problem with this idea.  If the enemy fleet tries to
move around the opponents's "battle line" to get at his "reserve", the
"battle line" only has to move a short distance (compared to the enemy
fleet) to place itself between the "reserve" and the enemy once again.
If your enemy decides to split up into multiple task forces, you can
always do the same (producing multiple "battle lines").  And it is
kinda cool :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:09:22 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Missiles

>Nukes, since they're not going as fast as kinetic kill munitions,
>have an easier job of guiding themselves to their target.  If
>surrounded by decoys (inflated aluminium balloons) and chilled to 4K,
>I think they do have a fair chance of beating point defence.  Passive
>sensors won't see it because it's cold and small, especially when the
>point defence lasers start blowing decoys to plasma.  Active sensors
>will see it, but also all of the decoys.

If you've deployed inflatable decoys and cooled to 4K, you've stopped
evading. If you've stopped evading, lasers can't miss you, even at 
100,000km+ ranges. At slow closing velocities this gives the point
defence weapons several minutes to engage the missile and decoy swarm,
which lets a good point defence laser (I've designed them with FFS) 
destroy up to 2000 decoys or so. If a missile can carry (generously)
100 decoys, a PD laser turret can destroy 20 such missiles. Since each 
6-ton missile barbette can only hold 5 missiles, it's not had to see that
the PD laser wins.

>I'm also not sure where these kinetic kill missiles are getting their
>kinetic energy from.

This is admittedly a traveller flaw - even the reaction drives are
way too efficient, let alone thrusters, so KKMs get much more energy than
they should.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:21:15 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: FTL communications

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:
> 
> In an effort to atone for my sins, I thought TML might be interested in the
> following (blatently ripped off from April's Scientific American):

April you say... Like in April 1st? :)

> "To send a message faster than the speed of light, you could build a
> machine like the one I have designed.  The machine is made up of two
> pulleys, each with a braking system connected by a belt, and one of the
> pulleys has a motor.  When you start the motor, both pulleys will spin at
> the same speed.  If you then apply the brake at one end, you will stop or
> slow both ends at the same time.
> 
> If you place one end of the device near the earth and the other near a
> distant place, such as Pluto, you could, by applying the brake on the earth
> side, send a message (Morse Code style) to an observer on Pluto.  The
> person on Pluto could send a response by applying his own brake, and the
> whole converstation could take place in seconds instead of the hours that
> it would take a radio message to travel this distance."  Tyler Burry,
> Moncton, New Brunswick

I hope this isn't a official scientific publication... Anyway, to my
knowledge this won't work since if you look closely at the "stick"
between the two machines, like on the molecular level. You will see that
the first molecule moves, then at the speed of light the rest of the
molecules line up with that first one. It's not a very good explanation,
though I hope you understand what I mean.

> I do hope the new Fire, Fusion and Steel will include such 'alternative'
> technologies!  :-)

Might be fun... :)

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:35:16 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

At 09:06 AM 4/22/97 -0600, you wrote:
>I always wondered why Jumpspace "time" was listed
>as "one week". Why not instantaneous?  If not,
>why not 24 hours?  I think the arbitrary could be
>changed.

well, feel free, but be aware that that the entire backround is based on the
speed of travel being 168-hours a jump.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:33:10 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Re: missing jump drive table

>Better than getting the 'lost' table, go to:
>
>http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

My web browser like that ever worse. I have the table in html form, but
having no idea what it should look like I am unable to piece it together. If
some one could please send me the basic layout I can probably figure it out
from there, I hope.=20

btw, whoever did the proof reading for T4 should, imho, be made to do some
kind of penance. How did such a typo/ommision ridden product ever make it to
the shelves?

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:35:20 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 07:24 AM 4/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 02:47 AM 4/22/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>At 09:19 PM 4/21/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>>Triva:  What was Dudley Do-Right's horse's name?
>>
>>Horse.
>
>Wow, that was fast!  Just goes to show, never play trivia games on the Net
>-- one persons's inscrutable trivia is another person's profound epiphany. :)

No, it just proves that there is no room for useful information in this head..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:27:36 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

At 08:24 AM 4/22/97 -0600, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
>> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
>> like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
>> relative position is quite stable and fixed.
>
>They move nothing like Empire Strikes back.  First, you'd be lucky
>to be able to see another asteroid if you were standing on one (very
>lucky, actually).

There's clearly a lot of kinetic energy in the ESB asteroid field that had
to come from _somewhere_ recently.  Still, that's one of my favorite
scenes. :)

Related to your second comment, doesn't the density vary somewhat?  And
won't some asteroids orbit each other in small close groups by mutual
attraction?  

>They move in various orbits, although they would probably be a
>little eccentric.  Since the reason for objects in a solar system
>orbiting in the same direction is conservation of angular momentum,
>things tend to rotate in a plane.  There will be exceptions, but
>this is the probable layout.  As a result, you could move out of
>plane and avoid the "dense" part of an asteroid belt without dodging
>around (see other comments about density of asteriod belts :-)

How thick is the asteroid belt in our system?  How thick are Saturn's rings?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:35:13 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A few questions...and comments.

At 08:55 AM 4/22/97 -0500, Ryan Christensen wrote:

>	One idea, though: if a small nuke detonated in the vicinity of a 
>ship (say BL range 0), even if it didn't damage the ship, would it still 
>cause a sensor white-out (ala BL)? If so, you could sneak a couple of 
>small missles (using IR guidance or something that wouldn't have been 
>blinded, say, turned on by remote) through, as the PD systems would be 
>unable to detect them until it's too late.

I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned this before.  A battle area filled
with detnuke missle going off will cause sensor operators fits as they try
to keep track of what's happening beyond the explosions.

>	Has anyone played around with 3G3? I loved the design rules in 
>FF&S, and was wondering if the 3G3 rules were as good for personal 
>weapons. Any comments? How about design rules for starship weapons? Is a 
>new FF&S style book coming out for T4?

3G3 is the God of weapons design.. I'm still working up stuff for my
Traveller campaign using it, I'll post them later.  All of the weapons in EA
was designed using 3G3.

In the IG catalog I recieved recently, the new FF&S is scheduled for a June
release, so expect it in July or August.

>	One question for TNE: a bad guy in Battle Dress (AV 13) gets 
>fired on by a couple PCs.
>	1. Does he suffer any blunt trauma from the non-penetrating 
>bullets? The rules seem to indicate he would, but it seems 
>counter-intuitive...

Not against rigid armor.. the bullets bounce off, no problem.

>	2. He gets hit with a 2.5cm HEAT grenade. The die is rolled, 
>yielding a final PV of, say, 28 (base 25 + 3 on the roll). 28-13 is 15. 
>How much damage does the wearer take? 15 points? 15d6? I know this would 
>damage a comparably armored vehicle, but no rules for this sort of 
>situation were given...

I'm a realist, so I saw 15 *dice*.. having a stream of plasma hit you is
going to hurt.  If it is a limb hit, remember that he can only take up to
the hit capacity of that limb, then it's gone..

>	I just joined the list a few days ago, so forgive my easily 
>answered question: what is THUDD? I know it's a design contest of some 
>sort, but that's about it. Is there an archive I can read back digests 
>of TML at? 

I can never remember what the acronym means, but it is a design contest for
ships in the Milieu:0 setting.  The difference is that we also role-play our
companies, providing press releases claiming our ships are the best thing
since sliced bread.  We just finished the April THUDD, which was a contest
to design a patrol cruiser.

The way it works is that Paul, or whoever is running it this week, puts out
a call for designs.  This will include the mission requirements and any
restrictions on size, weapons, etc.  Then we all go to work and submit our
designs to the moderator, who posts the designs and ballot.



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: NUELOW@aol.com
Subject: Greetings (Was Re: Who We Are)

I recently joined the list, and just thought I'd jump into the string of
biographies to introduce myself.

Those who frequent Usenet newsgroups have probably seen me around. I'm Steve
Miller, and I'm a editor/writer/game designer with a degree in English with a
Creative Writing Emphasis from the University of Utah. I grew up in Europe
(Denmark, primarily), and started my role-playing hobby on "Star Frontiers"
from TSR. 

As a kid, I decided that I wanted to make my living as a writer or editor,
and so far I've been able to just that. I've worked as an entertainment
writer, features editor, PR writer, script writer, and more recently as a
games editor/designer. Since making my hobby my vocation as well, I've worked
on staff at TSR, and am presently freelancing for Archangel Entertainment and
White Wolf... and have also contributed to an upcoming T4 adventure anthology
from Imperium Games. I'll soon be taking over the editorial reins of the
"Star Wars Journal" at West End Games.

It's only recently that I discovered TRAVELLER -- early 1995 to be exact --
when I bought the TNE and MT boxed sets, and gathered a group of my then
co-workers at TSR for a weekly TNE campaign. [Note: I realise a lot of
TRAVELLER fans dislike the New Era material, but I personally have a hard
time seeing a difference between what "Mileu 0" campaigns will most likely be
centered around, and what New Era campaigns would most likely have been
centered around. Both settings are about picking up the pieces of a dead
empire and rediscovering "what's out there". The only thing I could see about
TNE that was utterly abominable was the way they approached Virus. I hope I'm
not stirring up an old flamewar... or opening myself up to "You don't get
TRAVELLER, you jerk!"] 

At any rate, when the anthology comes out, at least one of the designers will
be hanging around the mailing list for you to shout at. :)

Steve Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:13:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG catalog/deluxe traveller

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, David & Anita Crowhurst wrote:

> When and where will it be available. Is it in the UK yet? Is it a limited
> print run only? I would like to get hold of one if possible.

Check the IG web site.  The hardback listed there is the Deluxe T4 
Hardback.  The softback listed there is the original softback (i.e., not 
"Deluxe").  

It has not been printed yet.  The catalog lists it as having a May 
release date, if I recall correctly.  But I'm guessing June is closer to 
reality (just my humble opinion), since it is still being worked on right 
now.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: My UPP write-up

   I came up with this soon after I got the T4 rulebook, and I think the
numbers match an actual character pretty closely.  

Trent Smith     College Student   1 Term
686BA7      Age 22             Cr few

History (Ancient/Medieval)-2
Writing-2
Admin-1
Computer-1
Ground Vehicle-1
Language (French)-1
Language (Classical Greek)-1
Research-1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:17:32 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium.  Give me a break.

>>> Norris set off my gaydar before I even knew what the term meant.
>
>And what Tech level can one acquire Gaydar at?

Didn't Godzilla fight Gaydar once? :P

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:17:28 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

>Premise 3 : Vacuume tube computers! (or babbage engines, I tend to go to
>vacuume tubes, because they have more computing power than an old Model
>1bis :-)

I've always wondered what happened to all those old Model 1s, 2s, and such
once the Imperium upgraded <g>. Are they stored away on a warehouse planet
somewhere, or were they lumped together w/ the PCjrs to make new fish habitats?
:)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:17:30 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Genetics (Was Re: Gays in the Imperium)

>Bad statistics (and I've seen a whole lot of these by social scientists
>who should know better) and a belief that *everything* *must* be genetic
>have produced a whole lot of dubious findings about human behavior in the
>past few decades.  Genetics is vastly over-rated wrt human behavior.
>Distrust sociobiologists, and watch their sample sizes, they sure don't. 

Reminds me of something I was saw somewhere that said {paraphrased}
42% of statistics were based on insignificant studies, 51% were based on
bad data, and the other 20% were just plain lies. <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:59:52 +0200
> From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
> 
> I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)

Odd definition of "cult movie"!

> Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the aseroids
> where moving toward each others in all direction
> 
> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
> like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
> relative position is quite stable and fixed.
> 
> Do Astronomers have the answer?

My friend, astronomers have *all* the answers. :)  No, Hollywood and (bad)
science fiction representations of asteroid belts have almost no
resemblance to the genuine article.  In Sol's belt, and any other
long-term stable belt, even in the thickest parts it would be *very* rare
for any asteroid to be naked-eye visible (even as a 5th-magnitude speck)
from any other.

As you mention, part of the reason is that asteroids that are still around
tend to be in orbits that don't cross the orbits of other large asteroids;
those that *did* cross have already collided with one another and become
swarms of smaller asteroids, some of which collided with other asteroids
and got still smaller, others of which ended up in stable new orbits, and
still others of which plonked the inner planets. Some really surprising
fraction of meteorites on Earth, for example, are believed to be fragments
chipped off Vesta (IIRC) by collisions with much smaller bodies; Vesta is
very big, and in an especially thick part of the belt, so ends up (over
the very long term) taking more "sandblasting" than most asteroids.

The other factor is of course that the density of the Belt is very low. 
There are tens of thousands of sizeable asteroids (>1km diameter), but
they are spread out through a flattened torus between about 2 and 4 AU
from the sun, maybe 1/4 AU thick...and that's a *log* of volume to spread
out in. 

There was an 80s SF story set on an asteroid-mining colony in which one
scene involved most of the crew going outside in p-suits to watch another
asteroid go by close enough to show a (small) angular diameter to the
naked eye.  It was the first time this had happened in the many years
they'd been there.  It really brought home to me what the Belt is actually
like.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:21:58 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Lanthanum Uses

I was browsing the WebElements site today, and I discovered something
that might be of interest to other jumpspace theorists:

"hydrogen sponge alloys containing lanthanum reversibly take up to 400
times their own volume of hydrogen gas. Heat is released, therefore
these alloys have potential in energy conservation systems"

Sounds like a link between Lanthanum use in jump-drives and hydrogen
fuel, doesn't it?

<http://www.shef.ac.uk/~chem/web-elements/>

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:58:31 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

Tue, 22 Apr 1997 01:06:09 -0400 (EDT),  Kenneth Winland
<kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
>On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, David P. Summers wrote:

>> Actually, keeping a boy for sexual purposes has been practiced
>> openly.  The term catamite was coined to refer to such boys.

>	And has been met with degrees of persecution and revulsion.  In
>some cultures (several tribes in New Zealand), sex with a boy is accepted,
>but only if he is older than 12 (or so).  Usually, it is ritualized as
>keeping the strength and potency among men.

The key is "degrees".  Both homosexuality and use of children
for sex have been generally considered unacceptable but have
situations where they have acheived "degrees" of acceptance.
The whole thing is usually subject to various spins, but I
don't see any objective evidence the homosexuality has been
historically more accepted.  How if you want to restrict
this to sex with very young babies (ie 1 or 2 years old)
I agree that there is a general rejection of practice.

summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:25:40 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Losing our precious cultural heritage (of course off topic)

At 09:49 PM 4/21/97 -0700, Craig wrote:

>Everyone with the slightest pretense to a classical education knows that
>the foe of the RCMP and nemesis of Dudley Dooright was named *Snidely*
>Whiplash.  "Sid Nastie" sounds more like a long-dead punk star.

And lest we forget Tom Slick's archnemesis in what was basically Dudley
Dooright on a racetrack...the nefarious Baron von Automatic in his famed
Thunderbolt Greaseslapper.

Rob.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:27:22 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Variety

>> Ick. A xenobiology thread could get ugly real quick. In terrestrial
>> life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
>> copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho') I imagine that
>> salinity levels differ between different aliens, possibly within
>> different branches of humaniti.
>
>If I'm correct, there's a type of crab (horseshoe?) that has kinda creamy
>blue blood that uses copper instead of iron to carry oxygen.
>
>I also saw in the paper (??) a small frog that has it's chromosomes
>on quartets instead of pairs like everything else...
>
>There's a lot of variety on this here planet!

So much so that it is amazing that people can actually believe that it came
about by an accident some gazillion years ago rather than believe that there
was a wise designer.

Sorry, but it had to be said. :)

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:03:39 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
> 
> If you have 3 or fewer ships Mayday is 3d out of the box :-)

Bzzzt.  People have been claiming that since CT -- I think it was actually
asserted in LBB 2 -- but it's never been true.  Consider two stationary
ships A and B, and a ship C moving in the + Z direction at 1 unit per
second.  In this diagram, the numbers give Z coordinates:

    A (0)

              C (-5)

    B (0)

Presume that A and B are 5 units apart, and that the projection of C's
position onto the Z=0 plane is 5 units from each.

Now, initially, C is sqrt(5^2 + 5^2) =~ 7 units from both A and B.  As it
moves up the Z axis (without accelerating), however, it draws closer to
both ships; it's only 5 units from both of them as it passes Z=0.  Then,
continuing to move up-Z, it draws further away from A and B; it's 7 units
away again as it passes Z=+5.

So, with no ship accelerating, C starts off 7 units away, moves to 5 units
away, then back to 7 units away, from each of two spatially separated
ships.  You *can't* model that on a plane!

For *two* ships, a suitable change of coordinates (both velocity and
position) will allow you to fudge things onto a plane -- but not for
three.  I've kept silent about this for 19 years...it's good to have it
off my chest. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1241
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1242



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: My UPP write-up
Re: FTL communications
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Genetics (Was Re: Gays in the Imperium)
Re: A few questions...and comments.
Black Watch?
THUDDD FAQ
Re: Task System Redux
Re: A few questions...and comments.
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Jump time
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time ADMIN NOTE
oooops -- sorry
Self-Character
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: My UPP write-up

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, I wrote:
> 
> Trent Smith     College Student   1 Term
> 686BA7      Age 22             Cr few
> 
> History (Ancient/Medieval)-2
> Writing-2
> Admin-1
> Computer-1
> Ground Vehicle-1
> Language (French)-1
> Language (Classical Greek)-1
> Research-1
> 
  For what it's worth (which is, I know, not a whole lot) I realized that
the above (written from memory) is slightly different than the "original"
written version.

1) I messed up the order of the UPP (HOW long have I been playing this
game?)  Plus I got a value wrong-- it should have been 568BA7

2) On my original "skills" listing, I also had "Music-2" and didn't have
the point of "Research"-- these skills came from the two auto skills, 4
backgrounds chosen from the list, and 4 college skills chosen off the
list.  As written, I wouldn't make much of a Traveller PC, but I still
thought it was pretty neat that I was able to come up with a reasonable
facsimile of myself by actually following the rules.

3) A few more "skills" which don't really exist, but which I consider
some of my primary aptitudes:
Trivia (Movies)-3
Trivia (Literature)-3
Trivia (Music)-2
Trivia (Games)-2

Thanks for indulging, I hope I'm not wasting too terribly much bandwidth,

Trent

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:30:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FTL communications

On 04/22/97 at 05:04 PM,  Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk said:

> Just in case the list is about to be inundated, don't forget it was the
> *April* issue of SciAm.  That was supposed to be a clue.  (As was the
> smiley)

OTOH, it *would* work, you know. If only...mumble, mumble, mumble... ;-D


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:12:05 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

On 04/22/97 at 09:06 AM,  Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov> said:

> I always wondered why Jumpspace "time" was listed
> as "one week". Why not instantaneous?  If not,
> why not 24 hours?  I think the arbitrary could be
> changed.

Sure, you can change it.  You can set it up anyway you want, but if you
allow communications much faster than the ~ one week per parsec, you'll
change the *feel* of the game.  Of course, there's nothing wrong with that,
if that's what you want.


Eris,
    being a heretic means reveling in diversity!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 16:58:11 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

On 04/22/97 at 11:59 AM,  Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
said:

> I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)

Fun movie, isn't it? ;->

> Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the
> aseroids where moving toward each others in all direction

Yep!

> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if
> (more like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
> relative position is quite stable and fixed.

Um, well only in a few known belts, with the Hollywood Asteroid Belt being
the most famous ;-p

Eris,
    his tongue firmly in cheek
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 16:36:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 04/21/97 at 09:19 PM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> >Or there abouts, yes I would...if the game was intended to be campy.  In
> >one game I'm in right now the nastiest villian is named Sid
> Nastie...Nastie >because he *is* nasty, and Sid for the famous Sidney
> Whiplash.

> That's *Snidely* Whiplash.  Good heavens, what _do_ they teach in
> cartoons these days? :)

> ObTrav:  I can see it now, Our Hero, Dudley, in his trusty Scoutship, off
> once again to rescue Nell.  What an NPC he'd make! :D

> Triva:  What was Dudley Do-Right's horse's name?

Geeze! We can really tell who the "Rocky and Bullwinkle Show" fans are
can't we? ;->

Actually, I was referring to *Sidney* Whiplash, the banker, in the famous
stage play "The Mortgage and Little Nell?" <---  Ok, I made that up, but
there really was a 19th century play with a name close to that. ;->

Oh, and the horse's name was Horse...or was it Horst? ;-> Whichever it was
the smartest character in *that* cartoon!  (Must've been an *American*
horse. ;-p)

....then Craig Berry chimed in with...

> "Sid Nastie" sounds more like a long-dead punk star.

Well yeah, Sid Vicious *did* cross my mind when I named Sid Nastie,
seeing as Nastie is a drug lord (among the rest of his nefarious
affairs), and poooor Sid Vicious is a stone cold junkie.  No, I'm
not mixing up my tenses either.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:27:12 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Consequences of Jump Uncertainties

On 04/22/97 at 04:50 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> >> A jump takes 7ish days.  7 days at c is around 1200 AU.  Assume jump
> >> uncertainty spreads at c from around your target point, using the same
> >> +-10%, and you get a 120 AU range -- still too big.  But I can't help
> >> feeling that c and the time uncertainty *do* play into this.  Anybody
> want >> to pick this up?
> >
> >I've been thinking on it too, but so far nothing has come to mind.
> >Thanks for checking those two options. They're obviously out the
> >window.

>  But what will happen when we misjump a parsec? Will the time uncertainty
> be around 3 years? If not, why is large misjumps different from small
> ones (except by the distance misjumped)? Is there more than quantitative
> differences here?
> (I'm not shure what I like best myself)

I meant to respond to this earlier.  In my games, jump is basically through
an artificially created wormhole (did you get that out of the *long*
articles I posted recently ;->).  Where you end up is a factor of how well
the Astrogator resolves a sensor signal from a grav source, and how
accurately he fires the pulse of anti-gravitrons at that source. If there
is an up-to-date datafile (or chart), the sensors are in well-repair and
are rated at that distance, the grav pulse generator is fired accurately,
and the Astrogator is successful at the two Average tasks of Locating and
Linking, the ship will get where it's going and emerge *somewhere* on the
"hyperlimit" in that system. ;-> With up-to-date charts and a Difficult
task for Location and Linking, they can jump in at their *choice* of
location on the hyperlimit (of course, if they fail either task they
increase their chances of a misjump).  Without the charts, they take their
chances on where they end up.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 17:40:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

On 04/22/97 at 12:37 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> > ..if you go to 1 minute turns:

> > 1.  And keep 30,000km hexes as the basic scale, then you've got to
> > drastically increase ship velocities, to travel even *1* hex in 1
> > minute requires a velocity of 1.8 million kph, or make movement
> > rates something like 1 hex per 6 turns.

> You *have* to reduce the hex size in step with the turn length, just to
> get acceleration to work out right for manuevers.

Remember, I'm a heretic.  <g> I don't have a *conceptional* problem
changing acceleration rates, or using pseudo-velocity.  Keep in mind, I was
just laying out alternatives, that you should consider if you want to use 1
minute turns.

> > 2.  And keep velocities about where they are now, then you've got to
> > drastically decrease the basic 30,000km range scale...and all the
> > effects that will have on weapons!

> Doesn't matter. The weapons *will* have that kind of range...

Two points:

1.  What kind of *real* destructive range does a laser have
*without* the total handwave of gravitic focusing?  According to FFS, less
than *1* hex!  (p.  125) We could rework Grav Focusing to work across
shorter ranges...if we wanted to.

2.  I've always had a problem with NPAWS and Meson cannon firing out to
multi-mega km.  Maybe they really *can*, but I have my doubts about NPAWS
beams staying together that far...and the very existance of Meson guns is a
big stretch.

> > 3.  And keep the current weapon ranges, then everyone will stay at
> > such long ranges that you will fire and fire and fire, hitting every
> > 30 or 40 turns.

> Which is exactly how such combat *would* work. You fire at where you
> *think* the guy will be, because you are working from data a noticeable
> fraction of a turn old.

Assuming, weapons can do damage at such ranges.  If they can't then they'll
have to close, and you'll probably get what I discribe below.

> > 4.  And have an exciting chance of hitting the other ship, then you
> > will need to drasticly reduce the ranges of the weapons. This forces
> > combatants to close to ranges where the chances of a hit grow high
> > enough to be fun.

> But at those ranges and velocities, you'll either have to come to a stop
> relative to each other, or else they can just zip past and refuse to
> engage, by staying out of range.

Which is also probably realistic, not that I particularly *like* it.

You might find that typical battles are:

1.  Meeting actions at high relative velocities where the ships pass into
and out of weapon range in only a few minutes.

2.  Actions where one, or both, sides deaccelerate for all they are worth
so as to extend combat time.

3.  A long stern chase where if you have an acceleration edge you'll
eventually bring the enemy into long range, medium range, then short range. 
And if you don't have an acceleration edge you're just plain SOL.

4.  Or finally, if you are some place the enemy wants to be (gas
giant/planet/jump-point), and they've got to decelerate down to your
position and kill or be killed.

Slugging it out at relatively low velocity differences would be *very*
deadly, I'd think.  Even Admirals of closely matched fleets would avoid
this kind of fight, probably, preferring to "remain an intact force" rather
than risk complete destruction.  This is why I think they would prefer
multiple high velocity passing actions, followed by a long period of
deceleration and repair, out of range. This would often give the side
getting beaten a chance to refuse action by jumping out.

Everything, of course, IMO. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 17:51:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

On 04/22/97 at 12:25 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> Don't forget that you can make thermionic devices (tubes) the size of a
> *dime*. 

I haven't, but thanks for reminding me of the term.  (You know, I've
actually got a couple of these things I show Computer Concepts classes. 
<g>)

> They did that back when it looked like tubes were the only way to
> guarantee immunity to EMP. So you get devices that are *3d* layouts of
> metal, ceramic and vacuum in a "solid" block. No filaments, you just coat
> the cathodes with something to increase thermal electron emissions, and
> heat the whole thing to dull red heat. 

> So you get computers that are large, but not overly so. An XT might be
> the size of a couple of suitcases. 

Hum, I'm picturing the computing power greater per stere than that, but not
much.  An XT in one suitcase, ship computers and MFD's the size of a large
refridgerator each, and bulky console sized data terminals.  Holo-tanks
exist for astrogation, piloting and CIC, but they are small and require
*big* computers.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:18:56 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Genetics (Was Re: Gays in the Imperium)

Paul D. Owensby wrote:
> Reminds me of something I was saw somewhere that said {paraphrased}
> 42% of statistics were based on insignificant studies, 51% were based on
> bad data, and the other 20% were just plain lies. <g>

	Well, at least they were giving their 112%. %-P

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:52:18 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: A few questions...and comments.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned this before.  A battle area filled
> with detnuke missle going off will cause sensor operators fits as they try
> to keep track of what's happening beyond the explosions.

	If I remember right, this only blocks LOS of passive sensors 
through the white out hex, though I think it'd probably cause a blackout 
of active sensors as well. The effects only last for a turn, but that 
would be long enough for a missle to slip through.
 
 
> 3G3 is the God of weapons design.. I'm still working up stuff for my
> Traveller campaign using it, I'll post them later.  All of the weapons in EA
> was designed using 3G3.

	Good. I was wondering how compatible it would be. I used to have 
a carbine design, using a TL10 10mm ETC cartridge with an energy of 
about 1400-1800J, and an Bla (average barrel length to achieve this 
energy) of 14.8cm. With a 33cm barrel, you get damage performance equal 
to a 7mm ACR, with better range and a lighter weapon. I was gonna miss 
that gun... 
		
> In the IG catalog I recieved recently, the new FF&S is scheduled for a June
> release, so expect it in July or August.

	Great, just in time for me to get out of boot..


> I'm a realist, so I saw 15 *dice*.. having a stream of plasma hit you is
> going to hurt.  If it is a limb hit, remember that he can only take up to
> the hit capacity of that limb, then it's gone..

	I was just confused by the relationship Penetration Value = 
Damage Value X Penetration Rating. 15 Dice makes sense, though.

	BTW, does anyone have an idea of when the next THUDDD will 
start? I was hping to get a crack at this before I left.

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:59:49 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Black Watch?

Eric Holmes wrote:

[snip]
>Historical re-enactor since 1985, European Napoleonic Association,
>Ensign 42nd RoF "Blackwatch", strong on the military history of
>the Highland Regiments and camp life during the wars
>parttime safety engineer and historian for Philmont Scout Ranch, since 1992.
[snip]


	Hmmm... I was in the Black Watch Cadets for a few years, and fellow
TMLer Ross Coburn was in the actual regiment for a while.


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:06:18 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDD FAQ

Ryan Christensen wrote:

>	I just joined the list a few days ago, so forgive my easily
>answered question: what is THUDD? I know it's a design contest of some
>sort, but that's about it. Is there an archive I can read back digests
>of TML at?


	It stands for Tml Highly Unofficial and Democratic Design Derby.  I
ran the first two, Paul Walker is handling the current one, and one of the
Berry brothers is probably going to do the next one.

	Basically, we all enjoyed the January Ship design contest so much
that we decided to do it on our own; the person running it announces it (we
have a list of ship classes chosen by popular vote that we're slowly
working through), people submit designs, which are then posted on the TML,
the TML votes upon them with comments, and the results are posted, along
with said comments.

	It's been an interesting exercise; we've thoroughly tested QSDS and
SSDS, discussed numerous design and economics issues, and had quite a good
time at it.  As well, we've produced a bunch of (sometimes very interesting
and offbeat) ship designs, which anyone is free to use...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:49:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Task System Redux

On 04/22/97 at 12:59 PM,  "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net> said:

> >Truth be told, I'm not even going to have traditional Skill Levels
> *during* >character generation. Each time a PC get's a specific skill the
> player will >figure the addition to the Skill Point total and just put
> that on the >character sheet. Of course, my system is a little more
> involved, but I'm >not ready to talk about that right now.

> A suggestion to prevent the "sameness" that prevails when all characters
> have a Pilot-1/Medic-3/Gunner-2/what-have-you: When the PC gets the
> skill, have them roll a d3 <g> to determine the exact number of
> "experience levels" they receive and record that rather than giving 3
> "el's" per skill level. This would give more character variety as well as
> end the unrealistic  assumption that  character A and B both learn the
> exact same amount of information about Engineering during their one-year
> course.

Hey! ;->

Paul, you're restating a hunk of my "Aptitude Based Character
Generation", mark 1.  Your analysis is exactly as I see it too, different
people will learn at different rates based on their aptitude for that skill
AND due to environmental factors.

Therefore, skill point increases should be based on both an aptitude score,
and a random factor for environmental differences.

I'm ending up with numbers *way* too high for use using Ken's Task levels
(and we actually agree there), but I'm dividing the point total by 5,dn for
the final skill level.  Experience increases the skill points, so each 1
point increase is worth 1/5 of a skill level. 

More about this later,

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:17:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: A few questions...and comments.

At 08:55 22/04/97 -0500, you wrote:
>	One question for TNE: a bad guy in Battle Dress (AV 13) gets 
>fired on by a couple PCs.
>	1. Does he suffer any blunt trauma from the non-penetrating 
>bullets? The rules seem to indicate he would, but it seems 
>counter-intuitive...
He most definatly does. It is mentioned in Smash & Grap (IIRC) and others
books as why primitive weapons aren't totally harmless.

>	2. He gets hit with a 2.5cm HEAT grenade. The die is rolled, 
>yielding a final PV of, say, 28 (base 25 + 3 on the roll). 28-13 is 15. 
>How much damage does the wearer take? 15 points? 15d6? I know this would 
>damage a comparably armored vehicle, but no rules for this sort of 
>situation were given...
I was going to say 'Treat it as an explosion' but then I looked up the
rules. In TW2000 they had a rule that you took either the conncussion or the
penetration value in D6's if an explosion occurred in contact. As TNE has
increased conncussion damage for contact explosions, I'd only check the
penetration. This would give the 15D6 answer.

>Ryan Christensen 	litefoot@feist.com
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:17:44 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

At 11:31 22/04/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a real asteroid field, you are unlikely to be able to see one rock from
>another without a good telescope and someone telling you where to look.
>(Small asteroid "moons" like Ida's excepted).  So, yes, that and most
>artistic portrayals of asteroid belts (like the cover of 2300's Nyotekundu
>sourcebook, aaaargh) as chock-ful of tumbling and colliding chunks of rock
>acting like a celestial Cuisinart to any ships so foolish as to enter...
>
>...are entirely fictional and unrealistic, though they sure look exciting.
>
Note: while the picture is still too dense, the Nyotekundu Sourcebook's
illustration is of a gas giant's ring, not of an asteriod belt.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:33:59 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

At 12:00 am 04/22/97 PST, you wrote:
>Interesting data point. The Chinese use *oak* heat shields on re-entry
>vehicles. Works quite well, as long as you are careful about things
>like knots. It ablates much like the hi-tech stuff we used on the old
>space capsules. 

	The Mark 11 reentry vehicle (that's the business end of an ICBM, for you
non-warmongers out there) had a balsa heat shield. When I took a class at
Vandenberg AFB, they had one that'd been used for a test shot from Vandy to
Kwajalein. The cone drifted off and was found by some fishermen six months
later, and 4,000 miles away (or some such ridiculous numbers).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Jump time

>At 09:06 AM 4/22/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>I always wondered why Jumpspace "time" was listed
>>as "one week". Why not instantaneous?  If not,
>>why not 24 hours?  I think the arbitrary could be
>>changed.
>
>well, feel free, but be aware that that the entire backround is based on the
>speed of travel being 168-hours a jump.


Douglas is absolutely correct. I would say that if you don't like the 7-day
jump period, play Star Wars!

Seriously, the jump lag time is so crucial to the history of Traveller, no
one should really consider changing it. Unfortunately, many science fiction
films have ingrained the idea in the collective consciousness that
interstellar travel is a piece of cake. In reality, we're just guessing at
one way the laws of physics might be broken.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:39:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time ADMIN NOTE

While this thread started as a Traveller topic it has left
any importance to Traveller.  Lets get back on topic.

Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
Your List Admin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:45:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: oooops -- sorry

> - -> Volkmar G said:
> Nooooooo! What did you do???? Misspell my name, you did!

Sorry...I hate it when I do that...

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:15:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Self-Character

Hmm ... seems after kicking off the whole idea of "who we are," I don't
have my personal write-up out there. Kind of driven for time right now (I'm
spending time I should be studying for an exam tomorrow night), but here's
a real quicky:

UPP: 9A9ACA 7*

Age: 30

Rank: Captain (O-3), Close Orbit and Aerospace Combat Command
Career: 3 terms (College, + 2COACC)

Computer-4, Engineering-3, Admin-3, Handgun-3, Language (German)-2, Wheeled
Vehicle-2, Leader-1, Survival-1, Rifle-1, Medical-1, Landscaping-1,
Mechanical-1, Artisan (Miniatures)-1, Parachuting-1, Swimming-0,
Singing-(-2) (I'm REALLY bad)

Probably a few skills I've left out, but those are the major ones...


*UPP measured officially at the IG booth at GenCon'96!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:30:29 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

At 06:12 PM 4/22/97 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 04/22/97 at 09:06 AM,  Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov> said:
>
>> I always wondered why Jumpspace "time" was listed
>> as "one week". Why not instantaneous?  If not,
>> why not 24 hours?  I think the arbitrary could be
>> changed.
>
>Sure, you can change it.  You can set it up anyway you want, but if you
>allow communications much faster than the ~ one week per parsec, you'll
>change the *feel* of the game.  Of course, there's nothing wrong with that,
>if that's what you want.

Okay, but what _are_ some of the changes in the feel of the game if you
went with, say, a 1-day jump (the famed Lucas Drive that lets one-man
fighters traverse the galaxy all the way to Dagobah!), an
Alderson-point-like drive, a "we're just going really really fast" ST:NG
warp-like drive, or some other style of FTL travel?  What are the
ramifications of each in general?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1242
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1243



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium
Aslan gender (was: SEX! With ALIENS!)
FW: Please pass along to TML
Re: Milieu:1889
This is irony, I hope?
New Technology (was Milieu: 1889)
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: THUDDD FAQ
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Asteroid belt question
RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:45:22 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

Okay, sort of off-topic, but maybe someone can make use of it.

All the talk about vacuum tubes reminded me that I read somewhere that
Isaac Asimov got his PhD in physics -- vacuum-tube physics -- about a month
(or some short time) before the invention of the transistor was announced.
Oof.

Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next 1-10
years that will have as great an impact on our society as the transistor?
If so, what is it?  

The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:06:55 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

If you don't want to wreak havoc with the established background material,
but still want to change the duration of jumps, maybe you could define it
so that 'objectively' -- to observers in the system of origin and
destination -- the jump takes 168 +/- hours, but 'subjectively' -- to the
folks inside the jump bubble -- it's some other length of time.
Instantaneous, one day per 'dimension' of jump space, whatever.  Any ideas
on how that might work?

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:07:08 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium

On the thread of 'alternate reproduction' that a couple people have
broached, a long time ago a friend and I sketched out a human minor race
for Traveler that had drifted/been pushed fairly far from the original
template.  With the recent business about "Dolly" in the news, I've sort of
been kicking the idea around in my head a bit more.

Basically, the idea was that a planetbound population of humans had been
contacted by the Hiver during the Long Night.  The Hiver, for whatever
ugly, sinister reasons they had, 'manipulated' the humans into the closest
approximation of Hiver as they could manage -- monosexual, "reproductive
drive" replaced by "parenting instinct," nest-hive social structure,
embassies, settlement patterns, economy, the works.  At some point the
Hiver abandoned the planet and the now very peculiar humans went their own
way for a thousand years or so, developing spaceflight, fighting off some
rogue Droyne/devolved Ancients who were lurking in the outer system,
piecing together jump drive technology from them, etc.  When contact with
the outside universe is re-established, they're going to be something of a
curiosity -- pushing the outer limits of what other humans would consider
"human," but also wayward enough that the modern Hive Federation would look
at them as dangerous 'children' in need of being re-uplifted...

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:07:00 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Aslan gender (was: SEX! With ALIENS!)

John Bogan wrote:

>At 12:15 PM 4/19/97 -0800, Kenji wrote:
>>Interesting!  Perhaps there's a disproportionately large number of human
>>ihatei roaming around the fringes of Aslan territory, then.  Also, if the
>>human clans adopted polygyny as well, there could be a real shortage of
>>marriage partners even for first-born sons.
>
>That might only be a problem at the lowest social levels
>(though if that's the level you're in, it IS a problem).
>More likely the effect will be felt as a reduced pool
>of skilled workers in "female" areas -- like technical fields.
>
>Two probable remedies:
>1) ally with a biologically Aslan clan, trading technical
>and business expertise for military strength (extra sons
>means extra troops);
>2) contract with aslan corporations to provide a number
>of services that Clans would normaly take care of in-house.
>
>Most likely is a combination of the two.

Sounds just right.  Maybe this would imply that bio-human clans would be
more closely entwined, politically/economically, with other clans, than the
average Aslan clan?

>>Kinda far out here, but:  maybe these biologically human Aslan drew on
>>their Solomani ancestors' genetic engineering expertise to skew their own
>>birth pattern to a 3:1 F:M ratio?  Not sure how it could be done, though --
>>any of the biologist-types on the list care to comment?
>
>Who needs genetics? Just abort "excess" males.
>However, that sort of thing doesn't seem to
>happen, or ihatei problems would be a bit smaller.

Yeah, that's the main reason I didn't suggest it... though the idea of
habitual *male* infanticide is kind of neat.

>Personally, I wouldn't have them "fix" the ratio
>because it's much more interesting making them adapt.

Heh.  Yeah, I agree with that, all right... why let 'em off easy?  <G>

>In the GDW-Beta discussion, the suggestion came up
>that some human males might opt to become "socially
>female," i.e., a biologically human male decides
>(very early on) to be treated in all ways as a
>female, something akin to becoming a monk or a
[snip]
>
>On the other hand, the Aslan might consider that
>to be a form of deception, thus dishonorable,
>thus they don't allow it.

If prior to human assimilation of Aslan culture, there wasn't any tradition
of cross-laborers like this, it seems unlikely to me that one would
develop.  The Aslan would probably see it as a 'barbaric' custom and
indicative that the hairless monkeys actually *hadn't* acquired
civilization yet...  I dunno, but in my own mind, I sort of see the Aslan
as having fairly inflexible and impermeable gender boundaries, and with
100% matching of biological sex to socio/psychological gender.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:19:52 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: FW: Please pass along to TML

Rob Prior has problems posting to the list and so I forward this on his behalf.


My midterms are finally marked, the last night-school assignment handed in,
and so I celebrated by cleaning up the school web site and uploading some
material I'd removed to save space.  If you want some 25mm plans for the
Shadows adventure, point your browser to
<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/Shadows.html>

Possibly foolishly, I included all the plans in the same file, so you might
want to turn off image autoloading  and load each picture individually.

The powerplant is finally finished, and I will convert those plans to GIF
tomorrow and upload them sometime this week (I hope).

Oh yes, the scale is 1m=1/2", so the distance between 'grid' markings is 2m,
_not_ 1.5m

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:34:53 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

At 06:33 pm 04/22/97 -0600, I wrote:
>	The Mark 11 reentry vehicle (that's the business end of an ICBM, for you
>non-warmongers out there) had a balsa heat shield. When I took a class at

	&^%$^%$ defective memory ... that should have been CORK heat shield, if I
remember correctly...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:43:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: This is irony, I hope?

Hi!
>gotten use to the amount of waffle and noise that permeates the TML
>and its better just to delete what you don not like, instead of trying to
>argue your point, because your just adding to the noise.
>
>> If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
>> the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
>> alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
>> 
>> or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
>> one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
>> there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :

  It's been said, but what's wrong with these as topics?
If they're dull they'll die fast, and if someone sends essays
then you can kill or `em or save `em.

  As for waffle and noise, well, yes.  Some rather more than
others.  I really do hope there's no one out there deleting stuff
they don't like even if it happens to be right in objective terms.

  Also, High Guard seemed to work for higher scales.  For rpg
levels, well, if a 250 MW laser penetrates the hull, this is a 
job for a well played out First Aid roll?  Poof.  What fun.
It seems to have a lot in common with "realistic" close-in
firefights, where the use of GL's w/HEAP and mini-satchel
charges will indicate the need for updated computerised C-Gen
or the borrowing of some useful plot devices from Paranoia :)

        Enjoy,  or not.
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 23:19:50 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: New Technology (was Milieu: 1889)

On 04/22/97 at 07:45 PM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next
> 1-10 years that will have as great an impact on our society as the
> transistor? If so, what is it?  

If you want *speculation*, then sure....

Anti-gravity, gravity control or gravity shielding.

Commercial power production from some kind of Fusion.

Practical room temperture superconductors.

First generation nano-machines.


Give us another 20 years, and you can add....

Reactionless drives.

Inertial Control.

FTL transportation.

Nano-replicators.


No, I'm not entirely serious, but I'm not entirely joking either.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 23:10:47 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

On 04/22/97 at 07:30 PM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> >> I always wondered why Jumpspace "time" was listed
> >> as "one week". Why not instantaneous?  If not,
> >> why not 24 hours?  I think the arbitrary could be
> >> changed.

> >Sure, you can change it.  You can set it up anyway you want, but if you
> >allow communications much faster than the ~ one week per parsec, you'll
> >change the *feel* of the game.  Of course, there's nothing wrong with
> that, >if that's what you want.

> Okay, but what _are_ some of the changes in the feel of the game if 

Fair enough.

> went with, say, a 1-day jump (the famed Lucas Drive that lets one-man
> fighters traverse the galaxy all the way to Dagobah!), 

Command and Control, and Information Transfer.  One day to jump how far? If
you're limiting it to 1 to 6 parsecs/day then...Sector Command is 2 weeks
(or so) from anywhere in the sector, rather than several months. If you're
saying 1 day to half way across the galaxy then...Central Imperial Command
is two or three days from anywhere in the Imperium, rather than several
years.  Given *either* situation there will be a major change in Command
and Control.  Independent commands fade away. PC's won't be able to run
away from their rep..or the law nearly as easy because information will be
much more widely spread and *much* faster.

> Alderson-point-like drive, 

Information transfer, and Command and Control.  Alderson transfer
instantaneously, but take weeks to get out to the jump-points from inner
planets.  Physical travel will still take a long time, but information can
be jumped radioed into and back from inner planets and jumped along *much*
faster than in Traveller.  You can't shift forces around as fast from a
Central Command, but you will still have Centralized Control of forces and
strategies.

> "we're just going really really fast" ST:NG  warp-like drive, or some other >style of FTL travel?  

Same as above, varing by just how fast "really fast" is.  

All of them will tend toward less diverse cultures with the tendency toward
a homogenious Standard Imperial Culture.  Does that exist in Traveller? 
Yes, but it's mainly among *travellers*, and around the central
systems..say sector capitals.  Is it more in 1100 than in 100?  You bet! 
But not nearly as bad as with rapid information transfer.

Anybody else?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:06:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD FAQ

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:06:18 -0400
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> 
> Ryan Christensen wrote:
> 
> >	I just joined the list a few days ago, so forgive my easily
> >answered question: what is THUDD? I know it's a design contest of some
> >sort, but that's about it. Is there an archive I can read back digests
> >of TML at?
> 
> 	It stands for Tml Highly Unofficial and Democratic Design Derby.  I
> ran the first two, Paul Walker is handling the current one, and one of the
> Berry brothers is probably going to do the next one.

This one, unless Douglas has outmaneuvered me. :)  I'm also not sure if
I'll be in on May or June.  Paul?  In any case, we should start deciding
now what the May design will be.  A heavy fighter seems popular, but can't
be done in QSDS.  Once Paul and I decide who gets May, one of us will
figure out what the May contest will be.

> 	Basically, we all enjoyed the January Ship design contest so much
> that we decided to do it on our own; the person running it announces it (we
> have a list of ship classes chosen by popular vote that we're slowly
> working through), people submit designs, which are then posted on the TML,
> the TML votes upon them with comments, and the results are posted, along
> with said comments.

I've inaugurated a web page to track the THUDDDs:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

It's (needless to say) under construction, and doesn't have the April
THUDDD entries -- probably won't before voting closes, given my work load
this week. :(  When I take over THUDDD, I plan on having this site be the
only place where the full designs appear, with just an announcement to the
TML (and ISBA) list to let people know to look.  Anybody object to that?

> 	It's been an interesting exercise; we've thoroughly tested QSDS and
> SSDS, discussed numerous design and economics issues, and had quite a good
> time at it.  As well, we've produced a bunch of (sometimes very interesting
> and offbeat) ship designs, which anyone is free to use...

I'm always amazed and pleased to see what other people can pull off with
design systems I think I understand.  It's both fascinating and
educational, and will (I hope) continuously improve the state of the art
in Traveller design systems *and* designs.

By the way, I'm mulling over Mark Clark's suggestion for a second round
competition among the best designs, with further tweaks allowed.  My
counterproposal is that we occasionally redo an old THUDDD topic, with the
benefit of hindsight, the published winners of the last round, and any new
or changed design systems published in the interim.  That sound attractive
to anyone?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:13:05 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>> If you have 3 or fewer ships Mayday is 3d out of the box :-)
>
>Bzzzt.  People have been claiming that since CT -- I think it was actually
>asserted in LBB 2 -- but it's never been true.  Consider two stationary
>ships A and B...
[snip]

You don't need to consider two ships; one ship can change its velocity in
3D by itself. Consider a single ship moving in a corkscrew path.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:13:01 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

>They move nothing like Empire Strikes back.  First, you'd be lucky
>to be able to see another asteroid if you were standing on one (very
>lucky, actually).

I loved the asteroid scene in ESB so much I HAD to include it in my old
campaign. The way I handwaved it was to postulate a stable asteroid swarm
in a gas giant's trojan point, whose orbits were chaotic because of
perturbations from another planet. My players had to fly into this
nightmare to retrieve a valuable cargo jettisoned by a ship attacked by
pirates. Anyone with an astronomy background wanna tell me how many laws of
physics I broke?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:12:57 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

>I ask these questions because of development of my misjump theory, which
>states that a certain gravity potential is *required* to exit jumpspace,
>which means there *has to be* a (relatively) large gravity well nearby
>after a misjump.

Lemme guess; you're trying to figure out how ships can survive misjump. We
bashed around this same idea in my old campaign. Some things you'll have to
consider are: why the gravity potential isn't required for normal jumps;
why ships don't misjump into even larger gravity wells like, say, the
inside of a star; or why gravity would even be required at all since normal
jumps have to take place far AWAY from gravity wells.

Another problem is why, if misjumps aren't deadly, don't scout or trade
ships intentionally misjump to get better range. A little mismaintenance,
some impure fuel, and helooo jump 36!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:30:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

 
> > If you have 3 or fewer ships Mayday is 3d out of the box :-)
> 
> Bzzzt.  People have been claiming that since CT -- I think it was actually
> asserted in LBB 2 -- but it's never been true.  Consider two stationary
> ships A and B, and a ship C moving in the + Z direction at 1 unit per
> second.  In this diagram, the numbers give Z coordinates:

Well, the smiley was there because it's a fudge, but instantaneously
they are always in a plane (obviously).  You are right that they
aren't in _the same plane_ thoughout the game, though.  They are
always in a plane by definition, it just changes to an outside
observer. And projecting them to yet another plane is even more
screwy as you show.

:-)

So, the bottom line is that it isn't really 3d out of the box, nor
is it easy to play out in 3d at all (unless you do it on a
computer).  I'll be more careful about the inside jokes (being
aware of the claims made in the past to the effect that it is/was).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:31:04 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

> I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)
> 
> Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the aseroids
> where moving toward each others in all direction
> 
> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
> like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
> relative position is quite stable and fixed.
>

The film view of asteroid belts is not very realistic. Our own asteroid
belt is much more sparse. I think I remember that the Galileo probe to
Jupiter went through the asteroid belt and passed one asteroid close
enough to photograph it. (Perhaps a few thousand kilometers ?) 

So if one went through a real asteroid field, it would be hard to see any
asteroids by naked eye. 
 
> Do Astronomers have the answer?

Well, I am no Astronomer, but hopefully that clarified the situation.

What am I then? Well, since everybody else has introduced themselves,
perhaps it is my turn.

I am twenty years old. I think that makes me the youngest member of this
list B-). I am from Finland, and I study Electrical Engineering  in 
Helsinki University of Technology. 
I have studied one year, mostly general courses. I was in the Finnish Army
for eight months beginning last July, and learnt there something about
firearms, explosives and such. Very little, mind you.

Currently I am employeed by one of Finlands biggest telecommunications
companies as a summer trainee. I program network management applications
with C++. 

I have played RPGs since 1986 or something like that. First game was D&D
(of course), when the Finnish translation hit the market. FOr a couple of
years, that was enough. After that for about three years we played almost
every game which sounded interesting. AD&D, RuneQuest, Star Frontier,
ElfQuest, Marvel Super Heroes, Heroes Unlimited, Teenage Mutant Ninja
Turtles, Star Wars, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun... Mostly we played every of
these games for a couple of months and then switched to the next one.
RuneQuest and Shadowrun were our favorites, some of my friends still play
them. Then I went to highscool and somehow found new friends who played
RPGs. 

We started two or three AD&D campaings. One of them is still running after
almost four years of erratic playing, and two charactrers are already
second level (not very high-level campaing B-) 

I have played Vampire and Call of  Cthulhu occasionally. 

I bought MT when it came out. It sounded interesting, but I never had the
time to run a campaing, so I never played it. I bought TNE about a year
ago, and am still planning a campaing for it. 

I read this list because it is interesting, and I might someday run a
Traveller game... 

Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

Never judge a book by its movie.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 01:33:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: RE: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

	Howdy!

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, David P. Summers wrote:

> The key is "degrees".

	You bet.

> Both homosexuality and use of children
> for sex have been generally considered unacceptable but have
> situations where they have acheived "degrees" of acceptance.

	Among certain groups, but not within a culture or polity as a
whole.

> The whole thing is usually subject to various spins, but I
> don't see any objective evidence the homosexuality has been
> historically more accepted...

	We have to define which cultural history we are talking about.
Are you referring to Western Europe?  Classical Mediterranean?  This is
very culture specific.  There is a lot of ethnohistorical and
anthropological/historical evidence concerning recognition and
acceptance of homosexuality for a number of cultures.  In all of the
cultures were it is/has been condoned and/or expected, marriage and
children were *also* expected.  There is a *lot* of objective evidence.

	If we are referring to North America/Western Europe, the modern
day is probably far more tolerant....

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 01:01:02 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 1997-04-22 15:36 thus spake Eris Reddoch:

>Oh, and the horse's name was Horse...or was it Horst? ;-> Whichever it was
>the smartest character in *that* cartoon!  (Must've been an *American*
>horse. ;-p)

Ho ho ho... Yes, the greater intelligence of american law enforcement and 
justice has been a shining example to all of us here in Canada. I mean, 
if the criminal case is lost, just try the civil. Things get waaaay more 
serious when money is involved. ;P

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 01:01:05 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

On 1997-04-22 20:45 thus spake Mike Sellers:

>Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next 1-10
>years that will have as great an impact on our society as the transistor?
>If so, what is it?  
>
>The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
>storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
>like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.

When you say "device" I assume you mean "computing device", since I think 
the next real society impacting technologies will come in the biology 
(viz. cloning and genetics debates) and power production fields (cheap & 
light Fuel Cells, maybe even fusion?)

I'm not up on the current "buzz" but I remember some technologies such as 
holographic data storage, optical computing and switching, nanotechnology 
allowing tunnelling of one electron wide gates. Course, then you get into 
realm of quantum mechanics.

I think I read something about quantum mechanical based computing devices 
in Scientific American. Bizarre stuff.



===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 01:00:54 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

On 1997-04-22 22:06 thus spake Kenji Schwarz:

>If you don't want to wreak havoc with the established background material,
>but still want to change the duration of jumps, maybe you could define it
>so that 'objectively' -- to observers in the system of origin and
>destination -- the jump takes 168 +/- hours, but 'subjectively' -- to the
>folks inside the jump bubble -- it's some other length of time.
>Instantaneous, one day per 'dimension' of jump space, whatever.  Any ideas
>on how that might work?

You ~could~ do that. But then you'd have to keep track of a character's 
*apparent* age vs. a character's *real* age. For instance, if subjective 
time is instantaneous, and the character makes 52 one week jumps, that 
character looks 1 year younger than he is.

And imagine all the money players would save on life-support costs! 
That'll wreck a bit of canon, there. Also, I could sit outside a gas 
giant and make myself a nice time machine. (forwards, anyways) Jump. 
refuel. jump. refuel. jump. refuel. Let's see if "the man" can catch me 
if I run away to the future!

At least low berths have a little danger involved. (Would you trust 
anyone to act as a "caretaker" to your berth... and what if the doctor 
botches your wake-up call... or what if the power fails...)

IMHO it's more trouble than it's worth. And it will break established 
Traveller background just as easily as if one changed jump-time from 1 
week. In different ways, but it'll break it just the same.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 01:00:59 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

On 1997-04-22 20:30 thus spake Mike Sellers:

>Okay, but what _are_ some of the changes in the feel of the game if you
>went with, say, a 1-day jump (the famed Lucas Drive that lets one-man
>fighters traverse the galaxy all the way to Dagobah!), an
>Alderson-point-like drive, a "we're just going really really fast" ST:NG
>warp-like drive, or some other style of FTL travel?  What are the
>ramifications of each in general?

I think there are two _major_ effects of a fixed 1 week jump time on the 
development of Traveller background:

1. Information takes time to propogate.

Because of this, the Imperium's feudal system makes some sense. The 
Emperor can't directly influence everything. There isn't a "chain of 
command" per se. The lower nobles have direct control over week-to-week 
happenings, and only bow to the authority of the higher nobles and on up 
to the emperor if they really botch things up.

2. Those with resources have better information.

If you've got high-jump capable vessels, and a string of refueling 
depots, you can beat the information lag of the average citizen by days, 
or even weeks. Arrival Vengence described how Norris got the inside scoop 
on Virus and was able to shore up the defences. He could also declare 
himself archduke because he knew of the rebellion before everyone else.

So by changing the one week travel time, you undermine the forces at work 
that reinforce the Imperial feudal system, you change the development of 
wars, exploration and trade that have shaped the Imperium, and mess up a 
lot of Norris' shenanigans which add so much flavour to Imperial History. 
(errrr... future... whatever)

Of course, If you're not playing with published Imperial history, it 
doesn't matter. Use whatever FTL that turns your fancy.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1243
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1244



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FTL-Communications
re: Asteroid belt question
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Time in Jump, Misjump, etc.
Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?
Intentional misjumps (Was Re: "Deep Space" detection)
FTL concepts (long?)
Time in Jump, Misjump, etc.
Re: A few questions...and comments.
Re: Xenoconductivity (off topic)
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: oooops -- sorry
Re: FTL communications
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
re: Asteroid belt question
Re: Variety
Ekwa  (was Re: Xenobiology)
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Ekwa (afterthought)
Re: Variety
Re: Who We Are

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:16:10 -0700
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: FTL-Communications

I'd rather stay with gossip...

You know, why gossip is many times so untrue? Because the high speed
causes shifting of the truth-contents.
It's a little bit like Doppler-effect. ;-)

BTW, do you know the three fastest ways of communication in ascending
order?
- -- Telephone
- -- Television
- -- Tell a woman. :-]
(Sorry if anyone feels anoyed)


>From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
>Subject: Re: FTL communications
>
>On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:38:08 +1000,
>paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:
>
>>Actually, a good form of FTL communication is already in use by veryone=
 in
>>the world today.
>>
>>It's called gossip.
>
>I have heard that bad news travels faster :D
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:33:18 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: re: Asteroid belt question

Many of you wrote something like :

- - Asteroid have quite stable orbits
- - Those orbits are not concentric so they can collide
- - The field density is very small


So another question :

Is it possible to have a much higher density than the belt in our system.
Let's say more than one significant body per km3. If that case, do two near
asteroid follow quite the same orbit?


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 01:37:11 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

On 1997-04-23 00:12 thus spake Richard Hough:

>>I ask these questions because of development of my misjump theory, which
>>states that a certain gravity potential is *required* to exit jumpspace,
>>which means there *has to be* a (relatively) large gravity well nearby
>>after a misjump.
>
>Lemme guess; you're trying to figure out how ships can survive misjump. We

No, no. Quite the opposite. I brought this up because I *want* it to be 
difficult to find the deep space object, and I was looking for 
justification for making it so. I assume that in the middle of nowhere, 
finding dark matter even within a few light-seconds is a non-trivial task.

Again, I ask, is my intuitive guess off base here?

>bashed around this same idea in my old campaign. Some things you'll have to
>consider are: why the gravity potential isn't required for normal jumps;
>why ships don't misjump into even larger gravity wells like, say, the
>inside of a star; or why gravity would even be required at all since normal
>jumps have to take place far AWAY from gravity wells.


I have considered the points you brought up.

My rebuttal:

A ship can only *enter* realspace with a specific gravitic potential. 
(not too great, not too small) It can enter jumpspace anywhere it darn 
well pleases, but high gravity increases the danger.

I don't have a problem with this one way mapping. To put it another way, 
all realspace points map to jumpspace, but all jumpspace points map to 
only some realspace points.

Why do I bother, you ask? I like the idea of system jump-points. A 
predicted distance at which a ship can appear. It stops sneaks from 
refueling in Oort belts. If the realspace<-->jumpspace map is symmetrical 
in both directions, what's the arguement *against* jumping to within 10 
diameters and cutting down on insystem travel time?

Besides, with this system in place, I can do away with that whole 1000 
diameter thruster plate limit stuff...

>Another problem is why, if misjumps aren't deadly, don't scout or trade
>ships intentionally misjump to get better range. A little mismaintenance,
>some impure fuel, and helooo jump 36!

Well, as I said, I didn't want to make misjumps less deadly, there's 
always a chance of catastrophic destruction. Most scouts and trade ships 
don't like to take that gamble. Also, direction is random, so jump-36 
could put you waaaay far away from the direction you wished to explore.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:22:18 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Time in Jump, Misjump, etc.

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) was pondering:
>>> A jump takes 7ish days.  7 days at c is around 1200 AU.  Assume jump
>>> uncertainty spreads at c from around your target point, using the same
>>> +-10%, and you get a 120 AU range -- still too big.  But I can't help
>>> feeling that c and the time uncertainty *do* play into this.  Anybody want
>>> to pick this up?
>>
>>I've been thinking on it too, but so far nothing has come to mind.
>>Thanks for checking those two options. They're obviously out the
>>window.
>
> But what will happen when we misjump a parsec? Will the time uncertainty
>be around 3 years? If not, why is large misjumps different from small ones
>(except by the distance misjumped)? Is there more than quantitative
>differences here?
>(I'm not shure what I like best myself)

I view a Jump as a bit like a projectile being shot from a gun barrel - the
arc of the trajectory can be influenced by:

air resistance (my Jump space is not a homogeneous 'substance' and can thus
have thicker and thinner bits in it - generally only differing between Jump
levels, but with minor variations within a level),

wind and gravity (I assume that the effects of gravitational fields within
'real space' map to Jump space, hence the 100 Jump limit rules and also
giving a close fit with the famous Han Solo speech about if you're not
careful putting in the jump coordinates you could end up flying right
through a star, etc. - you can't fly/Jump through Jump space too close to
such a large gravitational field or you'd get precipitated out of Jump)

initial velocity and 'angle' (Jump grid set up, etc.).

The end result is that you'll arrive somewhere near your intended target
area, with some time uncertainty (but without having to relate distances and
times to 'c'). Misjumps are where the gun was drastically overpowered, or
the projectile's path was drastically skewed in flight. Given that J space
is 3D with potentially huge gravity sources in it, a misjump might
effectively divert the projectile angle upwards, i.e. much increasing the
length (and time) of its flight.

Hand wave, hand wave.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:48:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?

>I think sandcasters were mentioned as giant shotguns in Striker 2:1:st
>edition but never in space combat as far as I can tell but I've been known
>to be wrong before :)
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se

Make that Striker 1 first edition (I told you I was wrong didn't I?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:44:58 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Intentional misjumps (Was Re: "Deep Space" detection)

>Lemme guess; you're trying to figure out how ships can survive misjump. We
>bashed around this same idea in my old campaign. Some things you'll have to
>consider are: why the gravity potential isn't required for normal jumps;
>why ships don't misjump into even larger gravity wells like, say, the
>inside of a star; or why gravity would even be required at all since normal
>jumps have to take place far AWAY from gravity wells.

I've been toying with the idea of requiring jump entry and jump exit with
the same potential energy ie m/r has to be constant where m is the mass od
the planet or star and r is tha distance to the center of the planet or
star. This makes it impossible to jump to deepspace and if a misjump occurs
it will be to the closest/largest mass with same potential (this also
solves the conservation of enrgy problem with jumping between different
potentials). Note that I've been toying with the idea, not doing any
calculations on it.

>Another problem is why, if misjumps aren't deadly, don't scout or trade
>ships intentionally misjump to get better range. A little mismaintenance,
>some impure fuel, and helooo jump 36!

On a 2D plane when doing random walk you'll get on the average SQRT(N) away
from the starting point AND also any other given point (please correct me
if I remember this wrong). Thus by forcing a misjump you'll on the average
get further away from your destination so forced misjumps would only be a
last resort (actually one of my players won a Glisten-Mora ship race by
unintentionally misjumping the right way)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 00:39:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: FTL concepts (long?)

Hello again,
>Okay, but what _are_ some of the changes in the feel of the game if you

  "Feel of the game?"  More precisely, to the extent that the background
has consistent and/or realistic structures underlying it, then major
deviations from the Jump results posited render the background useless.

"Lucas Drive (tm)".  The Imperium makes no sense, nor does its'
military, political, social, or economic histories.  The map area
is too small, and the Galaxy now becomes small enough for Star Wars.
That's really not a dig, but it does make the *T* universe nonsense.

>Alderson-point-like drive.  Surpringly little difference for *T*.
In fact, Jump is faster for transit, as that universe uses (very
efficient) reaction drives to get to and from the outer system
Alderson points.  An emergency x-boat system would be _very_ fast,
but even fast liners would take much longer.

"we're just going really really fast" - FTL equivalent?  Actually,
I used to prefer Pipers' hyperdrive for serious SF, but I have to
lean towards stutterwarp now, as it covers both M-drive and FTL
requirements fairly reasonably, and most other systems I've seen
only manage one really well.  Sadly, Pipers' normal space drive
fails on the "pushing on the star" math. Can't we change the math?

"or some other style".  Too vague a mechanism.  Besides, I thought
`geerheads didn't grok style? :)

FTL? - what about Not As Fast As Light.  I'm sure better games
can be built on that premise than some I've seen.

  Considering that we know inferior J-drives can be built, and
that the Islands Clusters are no longer sequestered by TCS as
a naval testing range, why not design an alternative where FTL
doesn't reach them from outside and they can deal with the
implications of different Jump drives.  Heck, they tolerated
STL, they'll buy anything.

  Not my $0.02 worth - if I'm having fun then it's free.
        Steven Hudson
        

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:48:57 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Time in Jump, Misjump, etc.

Sorry, continuing from my previous post, I just wanted to emphasise some
more of the points that explain why I like the 'fired from a cannon' (canon?
:-)) explanation for jump drives in my game.

Read the following to yourself while dramatically waving your hands about
like a made professor. That should give you some idea of the Fast Talk skill
being used here...

One has to imagine that traveling along the the gun barrel is moving
'towards' the appropriate Jump dimension (rather than being a motion in
normal 3D space). The end of the barrel is the interface between normal and
J space and the J distance depends upon the projectile velocity. For an
accurate arrival distance, you need to carefully control this velocity,
hence the J grid warm up sequence is a bit like controlling the projectile's
acceleration down the barrel - a cock up at this point (too much or little
'acceleration' into J space) will cause you to end up in the wrong place.

Of course, my J explanation doesn't require one to always arrive within a
gravitational field - such fields can drastically affect the
ship/projectile's flight path within J space, but you exit J space when the
projectile effectively hits the 'ground' (hand wave, call this the normal
space 'potential level' or something). Whether or not this disrupts canon
depends upon which version of Traveller you regard as canon. In much the
same way, my thrusters work beyond gravity wells, etc. since they use an
interface to the Jump dimension instead. They're quite separate from the
grav devices (belts, rafts, etc.) used on planets, which can only act
against an existing gravity field).

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:20:17 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: A few questions...and comments.

>        Has anyone played around with 3G3? I loved the design rules in
>FF&S, and was wondering if the 3G3 rules were as good for personal
>weapons. Any comments? How about design rules for starship weapons? Is a
>new FF&S style book coming out for T4?

FF&S personal weaponry designs are almost totally useless as they're ad hoc
and based on different principles for different kinds of guns (design an MD
gun and a Gauss gun and ponder the differences in design sequences). 3G3
makes Tl 8- guns with the right mass and general performance and teaches
you a thing or two about gun design. I highly reccomend it!


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:15:29 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity (off topic)

>Of
>course, that would require definition and control of how electrons
>decide to be particles/waves/wartcles/etc., a subject somewhat out of my
>league.

Actually the electrons are both waves and particles until you measure them
with a macroscopical apparatus and then depending on what you measure they
will look like either a particle or a wave. There is not much discussion
among physicists on the philosophical ramifications of this because quantum
mechanics works so well no matter what paradoxical consequences it
generates.

Just my very off topic comment which has nothing to do with the versatility
of the alternative neuronpath thingy mentioned.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:21:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

>In a real asteroid field, you are unlikely to be able to see one rock from
>another without a good telescope and someone telling you where to look.
>(Small asteroid "moons" like Ida's excepted).  So, yes, that and most
>artistic portrayals of asteroid belts (like the cover of 2300's Nyotekundu
>sourcebook, aaaargh) as chock-ful of tumbling and colliding chunks of rock
>acting like a celestial Cuisinart to any ships so foolish as to enter...

Wasn't that a gasgiant ring (the Nyotekundu cover)?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:56:56 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: oooops -- sorry

- -> Von:            GDWGAMES@aol.com
- -> Absendedatum:   Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:45:18 -0400 (EDT)
- -> An:             TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
- -> Betreff:        oooops -- sorry
- -> Antworten an:   traveller@MPGN.COM

- -> > - -> Volkmar G said:
- -> > Nooooooo! What did you do???? Misspell my name, you did!
- -> 
- -> Sorry...I hate it when I do that...
Don't sweat it, it's no problem, i just wanted to point it out.
Didn't people always change your gender? THAT must be annoying!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:47:58 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: FTL communications

Per Bernhardsson wrote:
> 
> Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:
> >
> > In an effort to atone for my sins, I thought TML might be interested in the
> > following (blatently ripped off from April's Scientific American):

In the Australian computer section, it reported that they have
discovered a way to transmit data via the electrical field that the body
produces. The current is minute (even by the standards that the body
uses) and has the speed of 2400 Bps.

They specificly mention businessmen swapping personal details via
handshakes, al la Gods own Game Designer's Comms.(The technolagy will be
smart card size).

It loooks like Greg will have to re-evaluate tech levels in CSC (the
atricle unfortunately was not posetd on the Australian web page).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:11:51 +1100
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Interesting data point. The Chinese use *oak* heat shields on re-entry
> vehicles. Works quite well, as long as you are careful about things
> like knots. It ablates much like the hi-tech stuff we used on the old
> space capsules.
> 
> There's not enough oygen for it to burn (nor any easy way for oxygen to
> pentrate the surface), so it chars. Then the charcoal burns off and the
> ash flakes away, exposing more charcoal and wood. If it's still
> smoldering once you get subsonic, you can jettison it.

Thank you, Thank you Thank You.

For the life of me could not work out re-entry for these vehicals ( i
was thinking about contra-grav ,and matching orbit for re-entry [like
the interface carrier in Robert McBride Allen's Aliens and Allies
book)].


> 
> Aircraft plywood is good stuff too. Ditto for fiberglass. And there is
> even TL0 "fiberglass". The Byzantine Empire made light armor out of
> layers of linen glued together with the weave at angles. Remember, this
> is stuff along the lines of horn/hoof-derived glue, which is a lot like
> lowgrade plastic when set. I suspect that you could make an airtight
> spacesuit using something like this for the parts that don't have to bend.
> (with enough creativity, it's possible to build a usable pressure suit
> with no flexing joints, only rotating ones)
> 
Actually , asuming that rubber excists (like Space 1889 does), space
suits are not that hard (they are overglorified deap diving suits). The
biggest problem is that as some one showed, wood is not a good space
material, as it warps easily in space. So in fact, the ships will have a
very short life. 

Life support is relitivly easy, propulsion is my biggest problem (I want
to avoid liftwood). The option I like is a Zeplin launcher. A Zeplin
lifts the ship into high astmosphere, then deploys the ship like Anti
satalight missile. I could use contragrav, but I want something that has
the feel of 1889.

I was also thinking of Steam +, and alagory of Fusion plus, where high
effiency steam engines are used (a bit like Harry Harrison's "A
Trans-Atlantic Tunnel Horrah!" atomic engines)

Darryl

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:09:04 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

- -> >Well i realize that, but it still strikes me as a weird name:
- -> >You wouldn't call an english-heritage bad guy Sir Arthur of Doom or 
- -> >anything now, wouldn't you? (Well maybe, if you wrote Marvel Comics 
- -> >you would choose a name like that, but that's another story!)
- -> 
- -> You are, of course referring to Herr Doktor Viktor von Doom,
- -> Monarch of Latveria (somewhere[fictional] in the northern Balkans,
- -> probably near Austria), who's supposed to be ethnically
- -> Gypsy. Kinda your whole argument in a nutshell (an armored,
- -> booby-trapped, robot-doubled nutshell, though :)
Jep, that's the one ;-)
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:15:19 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Asteroid belt question

>Is it possible to have a much higher density than the belt in our system.
>Let's say more than one significant body per km3. If that case, do two near
>asteroid follow quite the same orbit?

 They'd do if starting with same speed but then they'd start clumping up
real quick. In Beltstrike they had a newly shattered asteroid to move
around to create a movie style asteroid field but those disperse/clump
after a short time so you'll have to put your players there shortly after
the shattering event.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:15:22 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Variety

- -> 
- -> So much so that it is amazing that people can actually believe that it came
- -> about by an accident some gazillion years ago rather than believe that there
- -> was a wise designer.
Hey, I believe that!!!!!
Not everything needs a creator, coincidence is a viable explanation 
for life on this planet. Just because we cannot, with current 
knowledge explain a given fact of existance, we do not need to say 
God did it! Just think about Thor or Zeus as explanation for Thunder 
in the olden days 
- -> Sorry, but it had to be said. :)
Not meant to offend anyones religious feelings, but this had to be 
said, too! 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:18:28 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Ekwa  (was Re: Xenobiology)

Light switches: I thought the key element of skin conductivity was 
dampness - the slightly salty, slightly damp finger has a surface 
which conducts electricity relatively OK.

Iron and copper oxygen carriers: this gave me an idea.

Iron and copper are almost always found in two ionic states only: +2 
and +3 for Fe, +1 and +2 for copper.  (Yes, I've made Fe(IV) 
compounds, it's not hard, but they're not over-stable.)  Haemoglobin 
and equivalents work by a change of electronic state of +1, only.

Let's invent an alien with a vanadium-based chemistry.  Vanadium will 
quite happily enter oxidation states 2, 3, 4 and 5.  What effect will 
this have?

When our alien is happy and relaxed, he operates a low metabolism, 
V++ to V+++ energy transfer, very much like ours.  Let's say it's a 
bit less efficient, actually... don't have the relevant electrode 
potentials to hand.  However, the alien can "supercharge" its blood 
to V++++ and even V+++++, allowing operation at a much higer 
metabolic rate _in extremis_, with faster movement and greater 
endurance/hits.  And the alien can "psych itself up" by boosting its 
metabolic rate before attempting something dangerous.  These 
creatures I see as intelligent, apparently quite placid beings who 
bleed purple and are not to be trifled with.

Let's say these creatures are from one of the waterworlds in the 
rimward part of Lanth/Spinward Marches - Cogri (2419) or Equus (2417)
are good candidates.  Ah, yes.  Equus.  These creatures are known as 
"seahorses", both from their resemblance to Terran 
seahorses and their own name for each other, Ekwa.  (Thus galanglic 
equine, adj. of or relating to i) terran horses, ii) generically, all 
riding beasts and iii) the Eqwa of Equus/Lanth.

Description: smallish human sized (50 kg), shallow-water based, with 
some ability to breathe oxygen from air as well as water.  (This is 
especially useful in "supercharging" their metabolism.)  They 
resemble a Terran seahorse in shape, with two short arms with 
residual webbing.  They operate as hunter-gatherers of the abundant 
marine life of Equus, with some fish-farming and herding.  Their 
culture is TL 0 or 1; their tools are of natural materials.  Due to 
the presence of large, deep-water predators, they prefer to feed 
above water in shallows.


I've been meaning to think about the seahorses of Equus for a while, 
so thanks for triggering this idea, TML.

Nick

Dr. N.S. Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, Univ. of Sheffield, U.K.
email N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk, tel. +44 (0)114 222 2673

Liberal elitist socialist * Cat-lover * Guitarist * Sardonic humourist

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:53:55 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

At 17:40 22/04/97 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 04/22/97 at 12:37 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>> > 2.  And keep velocities about where they are now, then you've got to
>> > drastically decrease the basic 30,000km range scale...and all the
>> > effects that will have on weapons!
>
>> Doesn't matter. The weapons *will* have that kind of range...
>
>Two points:
>
>1.  What kind of *real* destructive range does a laser have
>*without* the total handwave of gravitic focusing?  According to FFS, less
>than *1* hex!  (p.  125) We could rework Grav Focusing to work across
>shorter ranges...if we wanted to.
That only applies to non X-Ray lasers, an X-Ray laser can reach over
multiple hexes no problem, so either the TL stays below 13, or you push
X-Rays up the TL band. Also without Grav Focusing the lasers will be more
powerful inside their effective range, because they'll be more efficient.

>Eris

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:56:49 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Ekwa (afterthought)

Oh, I forgot to mention the first thing I thought of about these 
creatures: they change colour due to mood.  Their habitual blue-green 
colour turns to blue and then violet as their metabolism fires up 
(i.e. is a warning that they are angry and/or aroused).

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:17:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Variety

>So much so that it is amazing that people can actually believe that it came
>about by an accident some gazillion years ago rather than believe that there
>was a wise designer.
>
>Sorry, but it had to be said. :)

If you look at the way the low level stuff in DNA works and the amount of
noninformational garbage there is in the DNA etc I'd say if life was
designed by a being then he has to be an employee at Microsoft. In my
Traveller universe there definately IS a god (me) but my job as a GM is to
make my players believe there isn't and by counting the number of religious
believers in the real world(tm) I'd say that if there is a God (which I
don't believe) then he shure does a crappy job as a GM.

Seriously, don't start a thread on wether life was an act of god or not.
There are mailing lists, newsgroups etc for this nonsense and we don't need
it here.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:11:08 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

Never being one to pass up an opportunity to talk about myself.......

Firstly this thread title is absolutely falling down funny for me (more on
that later maybe).

Full name = Andrew Juncker-Moffatt-Vallance
       (please excuse me for not using my full name too often)

Str = A bit low
Dex = Fairly good
End = Better than Str, but still not too good
Int = Depends on who you are talking to at the time
Edu = Probably somewhere about C, highly dependent on the subject being
discussed
Soc = Well, some, but my delusions of grandure get in the way
Age = 35 chronologically, mentally, well somewhere from 3 upwards

I'm a graphic artist/designer/publications coordinator. In my mispent youth
I got about two thirds to
a degree in sociology before illness interfered. Then I discovered the
wonderful world of
drawing pretty pictures on computers and that I could actually make more
money at it than I ever
could from sociology; and for once good sense prevailed.

I started playing traveller way back in '78 (leans back on walking frame to
mutter something about
how these young 'uns don't know what it was like back then in the pioneering
days of RPG's, dang
nab it), shortly too be followed by a love affair with RuneQuest. I
continued playing Traveller
and RQ (with a slighly perverse attraction to CoC) up until the real world
rudely interfered in things
(marriage and two young children really eat into precious playing time) just
about the time when TNE
was released.

Apart from RPG's, I'm also into Wargames (horse and musket era and ACW land
and age of sail
naval), history, sociology (well I'm told that is curable), astronomy, being
a husband/father, various
noble trendy lefty causes (politically correct for the younger members of
the audience), and generally
all round enjoying myself without taking the world too seriously (insanity
is a perfectly healthy
response to a sick society).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1244
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1245



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenoconductivity
Experience Systems Wanted
Re: Ekwa  (was Re: Xenobiology)
Re: THUDDD FAQ
Ship's Lasers
Re: Xenoconductivity (off topic)
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: THUDDD FAQ
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Variety
Re: Who we are.
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Experience Systems Wanted
Re: Experience Systems Wanted
Re: Xenoconductivity (off topic)
Difference in QSDS and SSDS??
My first Traveller campaign
Re: Who We Are
Marc's new task system
Re: FTL-Communications
Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 
Re: Milieu:1889

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:32:38 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

>I recently was working at a Macaroni Grill here in Wichita that
>incorporated touch-screen computers as part of their order-taking
>system (kinda like a touch-screen register). The thing that intrigued me
>was that it would detect touches by a credit card (I used to use the
>corner of the card to punch in the number if it didn't swipe right). Was
>this a special kind of screen, one of those capacitance switches, or
>something else entirely?
>
>Ryan Christensen        litefoot@feist.com

Different switch. Uses two metal films with spongy plastic in between. As
separation between the films diminish the capacitance increases which is
what is measured. Waterproof cheap switches that can be used a long time.
The old metallic touch switches are on their way out in modern products.
You mostly see them on Amarican consumer electronics


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:25:53 -0400
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Experience Systems Wanted

I'm working on my on own skill system, one that allows incremental skill
levels (ie computer 3.2, pilot 4.6, etc.).  What I'm looking for are ideas
on how and when to award to experience points.  Especially any house rules.  

So how do you handle experience in your games??

TIA,

 James Garriss                          System Engineer, MITRE               
 jpg@langley.mitre.org          http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:57:50 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ekwa  (was Re: Xenobiology)

>Description: smallish human sized (50 kg), shallow-water based, with
>some ability to breathe oxygen from air as well as water.  (This is
>especially useful in "supercharging" their metabolism.)  They
>resemble a Terran seahorse in shape, with two short arms with
>residual webbing.  They operate as hunter-gatherers of the abundant
>marine life of Equus, with some fish-farming and herding.  Their
>culture is TL 0 or 1; their tools are of natural materials.  Due to
>the presence of large, deep-water predators, they prefer to feed
>above water in shallows.
>
>
>I've been meaning to think about the seahorses of Equus for a while,
>so thanks for triggering this idea, TML.
>
>Nick

Thanks Nick, I will incorporate these critters into my "canon" for now on.
Please keep us posted on any more ideas you get involving the Ekwas culture
et c.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:49:45 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: THUDDD FAQ

Craig Berry wrote:

[snip]
>
>By the way, I'm mulling over Mark Clark's suggestion for a second round
>competition among the best designs, with further tweaks allowed.  My
>counterproposal is that we occasionally redo an old THUDDD topic, with the
>benefit of hindsight, the published winners of the last round, and any new
>or changed design systems published in the interim.  That sound attractive
>to anyone?


	Something that I'd be interested in seeing is a THUDDD revolving
around a non-canon ship class.  Something along the lines of the rescue
boat idea, or a heavily armed J3 "Frontier Trader", a Spofulamesque
ludicrous-armament-in-the smallest-possible-package wierdness, or something
else offbeat.  Fighters don't really turn my crank, although I think that
they ought to be done.

	If we're going to be redoing a topic I'd plunk for the Far Trader
again...


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:08:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Ship's Lasers

In answer to Eris I've been playing with 1 turn = 5 minutes, 1 square
equals 1000 km and no grav focussing. Combat ranges are up to about 15 000
km for good short wavelength lasers and much longer for NPAWS and mesons.
Great fun with the lower scale is big planets to hide behind and
gravthruster fighters that need to keep close to planets to get any thrust.
My universe is more or less canon 3d Imperium but with considerably altered
TL. No grav focus, gravthrust is prop to local gravity, thrusters work the
same, ships are much smaller (based on 1 dp ton = 5 m3 to get 1m square
grid) and design system first based on HighGuard figures and then added to
ad infinitum).

GMs everywhere free yourselves! Throw out the Tasksystems, rewrite the
character generation, redefine the TLs and burn your bras! Keep the history
though but change anything that doesn't fit.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:58:42 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity (off topic)

Anders Backman wrote:

> Actually the electrons are both waves and particles until you measure them
> with a macroscopical apparatus and then depending on what you measure they
> will look like either a particle or a wave. There is not much discussion
> among physicists on the philosophical ramifications of this because quantum
> mechanics works so well no matter what paradoxical consequences it
> generates.

	This, I think, was why the guy argued that there needed to be a 
way to determine how the electron will choose to act in a given 
situation.

> Just my very off topic comment which has nothing to do with the versatility
> of the alternative neuronpath thingy mentioned.

	Possibly. If they have to be measured macroscopically to change, 
then the microtubes won't amplify heir wave-nature into transmittable 
macroscopic vibrations, and thus the whole system falls apart.

Ryan Christensen
<litefoot@feist.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:50:04 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

Richard Hough wrote:
> Lemme guess; you're trying to figure out how ships can survive misjump. We
> bashed around this same idea in my old campaign. Some things you'll have to
> consider are: why the gravity potential isn't required for normal jumps;
> why ships don't misjump into even larger gravity wells like, say, the
> inside of a star; or why gravity would even be required at all since normal
> jumps have to take place far AWAY from gravity wells.

	I think that, at least the way I understood the "gravity lens" theory of jump, 
that the gravity well deistorts the way you aim your vessel (and probably screws 
around with the tunnel characteristics as well). Tha way, gravity well would 
definitely need to be AVOIDED, like they are now. Impure fuel just screws up the jump 
timing, yielding essentially the same results.
 
> Another problem is why, if misjumps aren't deadly, don't scout or trade
> ships intentionally misjump to get better range. A little mismaintenance,
> some impure fuel, and helooo jump 36!

	Two reasons I can think of:
1. A lot of ship designs I have seen do not have enough feul to make two consecutive 
jumps without refueling. Meaning, if you misjump to the middle of nowhere, all you can 
do is point yourself at the nearest star, burn 1/4 of your manuever feul (or just kick 
in the ol' thruster plates), program the computer to wake you up when you get close, 
go into low berth, and pray.
2. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OF WHERE YOU END UP. While this may not matter as much for 
scouts, it would still take them 3 months or so to get back. For traders, this option 
is really only useful if the trader in question just wants a dramatic change of pace. 
For coerce, it would be so unpredictable as to be useless (Diamonds? What do we want 
with diamonds? They grow on trees here. Look! <pointing to oddly gliitering 
vegeation>).

	Also, I imagine that the jump drive/grid/whatever would be somewhat damaged by 
the misjump (gravity wells causing undue stress, impure feul clogging things up, 
etc.). As for jumping into stars, well, I suppose you could invoke the "no two objects 
may occupy the same point in space" rule.

Ryan Christensen
<HTML>
<A HREF="litefoot@feist.com"> litefoot&amp;feist.com </A>
</HTML>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:15:10 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

>Next, if a active "sensor sweep" is necessary, what range does an object
>need to be in order to be "caught". I'm sure patience is necessary, to
>wait for light propogation... How long would such a sweep take? A lot of
>sky needs to be covered.

Passive sensors don't have to wait for light propagation but they still
need integration time to make their signal louder than the noise.
When we discuss sensors on the list we tend to eat the cake and have it
too: We use astronomical sensordata to argue that we can just about detect
anything and the same with resolution. But if we are looking at a very
small part of the sky it will take forever to scan the entire sphere ore
even a hemisphere. If we only had a ballpark figure of needed exposure time
to detect "this" source at "that" range with "this" exposure covering
"this" angular area of the sky we could start calculating reasonable sensor
ranges. My system use very short sensor ranges until something is detected,
and then we can track it "forever".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:33:49 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: THUDDD FAQ

At 22:06 22/04/97 -0700,  Craig Berry wrote:

>By the way, I'm mulling over Mark Clark's suggestion for a second round
>competition among the best designs, with further tweaks allowed.  My
>counterproposal is that we occasionally redo an old THUDDD topic, with the
>benefit of hindsight, the published winners of the last round, and any new
>or changed design systems published in the interim.  That sound attractive
>to anyone?

Sounds fine to me, but then I'm a fairly recent member, and haven't done any
designs.

BTW which design systems are considered legal? 
I presume that all entries have to conform to Melieu 0 standards.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:06:12 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 01:01 AM 4/23/97 -0600, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>On 1997-04-22 15:36 thus spake Eris Reddoch:
>>Oh, and the horse's name was Horse...or was it Horst? ;-> Whichever it was
>>the smartest character in *that* cartoon!  (Must've been an *American*
>>horse. ;-p)
>
>Ho ho ho... Yes, the greater intelligence of american law enforcement and 
>justice has been a shining example to all of us here in Canada. I mean, 
>if the criminal case is lost, just try the civil. Things get waaaay more 
>serious when money is involved. ;P

Careful, or we'll bring up things like the Ontario government (any old one,
I don't care :) ) or even the movie _Canadian Bacon_.  Of course you could
bring up _Roger & Me_ and its sequel _Pets or Meat_...

ObTrav:  Anyone ever get their players mixed up with separatists like the
Quebecois, or even the IRA?  There's gotta be a lot of good adventures there.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:25:13 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Variety

At 02:17 PM 4/23/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>So much so that it is amazing that people can actually believe that it came
>>about by an accident some gazillion years ago rather than believe that there
>>was a wise designer.
>>
>>Sorry, but it had to be said. :)
> ...
>Seriously, don't start a thread on wether life was an act of god or not.
>There are mailing lists, newsgroups etc for this nonsense and we don't need
>it here.

Unfortunately, you guys already started it, got off your personal volleys,
and are calling it quits.  I'm _not_ going to perpetuate this thread (this
is an information-free posting :) ), but you're right, it shouldn't have
been started here in the first place.  All you'll get is heat and no light.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:46:10 +0200
From: Pablo Jaime Conill Querol <pconque@delta.cti.unav.es>
Subject: Re: Who we are.

        Well, i am  studying at the Pamplona University (one of the most
prestigious in Spain) the career of Audiovisual Comunicatons (ist for work
in the Radio, the TVor in the cinema, in case you have any cuestins related
to how a movie is made, or a Radio programm, just ask). I also work in a
Radio called Zarrata Irratia, i have my own program, every sunday from 15 to
16:30, and is a programm about Role Playing Games, Comics and this stuff.
       I started playing Role nine eight years and a half before (i am
nineteen, but the fifteen of May i will be twenty  years old), and a few
years ago i meet Carlos Alos Ferrer, who introduce me in MT (i knew CT). And
i am here now. The Traveller has brcome my favourite RPG, with the Vampire:
The Mascarade, and AD&D. I also play Cthulhu, Rolemaster, Star Wars and
sometimes RuneQuest.
We will read.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Pablo Jaime -PJ- Conill Querol
C/ Monasterio de Iratxe, 49, 1=BAB
31011    Pamplona  SPAIN
e-mail: pconque@cti.unav.es

"When all your wishes are granted
 many of your dreams will be destroyed".
                           M.M.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:25:09 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

At 07:11 PM 4/23/97 +1100, Darryl Adams wrote:
>> Aircraft plywood is good stuff too. Ditto for fiberglass. And there is
>> even TL0 "fiberglass". The Byzantine Empire made light armor out of
>> layers of linen glued together with the weave at angles. Remember, this
>> is stuff along the lines of horn/hoof-derived glue, which is a lot like
>> lowgrade plastic when set. I suspect that you could make an airtight
>> spacesuit using something like this for the parts that don't have to bend.
>> (with enough creativity, it's possible to build a usable pressure suit
>> with no flexing joints, only rotating ones)

In an article on bows in an old SciAm (1984? 1988? -- features a painting
of a bow on the cover), they note that composite bow construction (horn,
wood, and sinew glued together) got so technical that one plan specified
using glue made from skin scrapings taken from the roof of the mouth of the
Volga river sturgeon.

This is a very cool article for the information on bows (short, long,
horse, crossbows, etc.) including ranges, punch power, etc.  It's also very
cool for the low-tech construction techniques -- from which you could, no
doubt, extrapolate all kinds of cool things! 


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:51:12 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Experience Systems Wanted

 James Garriss  wrote:

>I'm working on my on own skill system, one that allows incremental skill
>levels (ie computer 3.2, pilot 4.6, etc.).  What I'm looking for are ideas
>on how and when to award to experience points.  Especially any house rules.  
>
>So how do you handle experience in your games??

Several possibilities

1- AD&D : Affect ... move to the next one

2- Chaosium : When a player do an outstanding success on a dice throw, give
him a point in the skill he succeed in!

3- Put points along the adventure plot. Caracters get them when they
discover of defeat something/someone. Risk : Looks too static, not very fun.

4- Cyberpunk/Vampire : Award point at a whole at then end of each stories.
Award point if the player has taken risks for the team, if he has done
quite good Role playing, if the team succed in their goad, if they've
learned something... You can imagine all the topics you want. 

5- My system : I give points immediately when one player have done somthing
interessant for the general story or particulary coherent with his
character. The point allowance in totally subjective. I only check that I
give points to quite everyone. 

So 
1 is ... no forget it

2 is based only on dices, too bad. And the risk is that better skilled
players would get more points

3 is too static and not very fun. Central characters would get more points
and it pushes character to individualism.

4 is good, I've used it for a very long time. Very simple, you don't have
to bother during the play or before. It's always the same table which is used.

5 is the system I use recently. The players like this system. BTW you can
control all the points you give. If a player is too weakly skilled, award
him some points for minor but interesting actions. For Example, I would
award point in a gun fight not to the character who was the most effective
but to the character who was intelligent and bring good fun to the game
scene. The main advantage is that the player are immedialy rewarded of
their efforts of improving their game quality. Their is no rules for this
system, just the GM common sense. Best I think

Comments?
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:29:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Experience Systems Wanted

>I'm working on my on own skill system, one that allows incremental skill
>levels (ie computer 3.2, pilot 4.6, etc.).  What I'm looking for are ideas
>on how and when to award to experience points.  Especially any house rules.
>
>So how do you handle experience in your games??
>
>TIA,

Well all my skills have a characteristic linked to it Pilot(INT),
Knife(DEX) etc and all skill improvements are tasks based on the
controlling characteristic, getting harder as skill levels increase. After
each play session me and my players go through what skills they primarily
used durng the session, then they can choose which single one they will try
to improve by rolling a characteristics task. If they fail no xps are
earned etc but statistically if they use a skill a lot and keep rolling
they'll end up with a higher skill.

Main points are: no xps to keep track of, raising skill levels gets harder
as the levels increase and the "maximum" skill level attainable is highly
dependant on the controlling characteristic. My tasksystem uses skill ONLY
so the characteristics determine the ease in improving skills.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:47:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity (off topic)

>        This, I think, was why the guy argued that there needed to be a
>way to determine how the electron will choose to act in a given
>situation.
>
>> Just my very off topic comment which has nothing to do with the versatility
>> of the alternative neuronpath thingy mentioned.
>
>        Possibly. If they have to be measured macroscopically to change,
>then the microtubes won't amplify heir wave-nature into transmittable
>macroscopic vibrations, and thus the whole system falls apart.

 The electrons will keep their wavelike qualities in the system until You
measure them by some macroscopic method. Wether they'll measure as wavelike
or particlelike depends on in what way You measure them and should be of no
significance as to how the system works. This collapsing of wavefunctions
is something pretty hard to understand as it doesn't take place unless you
measure something and some even argue that it has to be You and not me that
does it.

There are big problems in the current philosophical interpretation of
quantum mechanics (Copenhagen interpretation) as it leads to all sorts of
paradoxes but most physicists don't care because quantum mechanics works
nevertheless.
I could go into this a bit deeper but I think it is off topic.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:52:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Difference in QSDS and SSDS??

Okay I have asked this before but I haven't received any answers.

According to most of the THUDDD April designs it seems to me that
the power consumption of SSDS laser batteries lay a factor
of ten below the QSDS ones. Can Wildstar of David Golden 
or anybody else give som clarification on this one?
   


Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:04:56 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: My first Traveller campaign

	Ahh, memories.

	All of these posts about 1889 and M:1965 are bringing back memories of my 
very first Traveller campaign. While it wasn't an alternate history at the 
time...

	Way back in 1986 or so, I was just starting to look beyond D&D for my RPG 
fix, and I had just bought good 'ole Starter Traveller, and I was VERY 
excited by it. Of course, Starter Traveller had absolutely no background 
material in it, beyond a couple of oblique references to an Imperium. So, 
at a sleep-over a couple of weeks later (hey, I was 11 or 12 at the time), 
my friend and I quickly started rolling up UPPs for for the People's 
Democratic Republic or Earth, a small group of 20 worlds or so, where the 
commies had won the cold war, and the players were going to be some kind of 
rebels fighting for peace, order and good government for earth (hey, I'm 
Canadian).

	As well, right next to the PRE was the Sword Worlds, since Starter 
Traveller came with two adventures, Shadows, and Mission on Mithril (which 
is set in the Sword Worlds).

	Alas, I don't think that setting lasted beyond rolling up the planets, and 
setting a free trader loose among the planets for a couple of test runs, 
all done that night. Shortly after I bought Supplement 3, the Spinward 
Marches, and the rest was history. And of course now that I'm feeling 
nostalgic, I can't even find a single trace of that work.

*sigh*

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:16:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Midgard@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who We Are

 As a new member to the list I feel this is a good chance to introduce
myself:

Full Name: Randolph Kevin Rakalas (Bit of a mess but It could be
worse...maybe.)

Str= was C in my football playing days now down to around 9
Dex= not bad, average control with fast reflexes, I'd say 7
End= Probably 8, was better the same time as my strength.
Int= 140 IQ, whatever that means - Above Average with occasional luck. Let's
say 8
Edu= High School, currently in trade school learning how electronics = magic,
8
Sst= lower middle probably high 5 / low 6.
Age= 30 - Living in a time of discord and loving it.

     Master of screwing up in high school, decided not to join the Marines
when my High School Counselor said it was a good idea. Instead spent twelve
years as a Truck Driver, Forklift Operator, S and R Clerk, Quality Assurance
Man, Courier, and a warehouse  supervisor. You need it shipped, packed,
moved, transported, delivered, repacked, shrink wrapped, written up (In a
Damage Report), filled with peanuts or put on top of a rack I'm your man. And
I don't even charge extra for additional paperwork and bullying the
subordinates into doing their jobs. All part of the service :)
     It only took me those twelve years to figure out that I could make a lot
more money solving puzzels and not be treated like a steaming pile of cow
waste. Thus I am in my current situation; living with the girlfriend,
ocassionally being allowed to make love, playing RPGs, Traveller, Call of
Cthulhu, Ad&d  only if I am forced to. Love old Squad Leader and would
happily die if I could find a good game of Kingmaker with more then two
adversaries. 
     Tried Live-Action role playing - it's ok but too much work. Love the
cold winter of Wisconsin, my current home.

 Other Hobbies: History, English, from Roman conquering (Claudius Rules) to
the War of the Roses (Richard the Third - wasn't he the guy that bombed
Cambodia? Wups wrong Richard). Reading Science Fiction, Horror and Detective
novels. Watching foreign films with subtitles (I hate dubbing). Thwapping the
cat and getting bit in return. 

 Nice to meet you all, Randolph (Timber Wolf)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:46:00 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Marc's new task system

	Could someone either send me a copy of MMs new T4 task system, or give me a URL where I can find it?

	I've been hunting through the millions of Traveller pages out there, but I can't seem to find it.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:53:45 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: FTL-Communications

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:16:10 -0700, Harald Budschedl
<Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at> wrote:

>I'd rather stay with gossip...
>
>You know, why gossip is many times so untrue? Because the high speed
>causes shifting of the truth-contents.
>It's a little bit like Doppler-effect. ;-)
Another thing is that gossip (and rumors) tend to grow all by
themselves. May be we could build a deux ex machina run on gossip?
=46ree energy is here at last


>BTW, do you know the three fastest ways of communication in ascending
>order?
>-- Telephone
>-- Television
>-- Tell a woman. :-]
- --- Your wife. She knows even before you opens your mouth :D
That makes four.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:53:47 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 

On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:59:36 +0000, Garry Ward
<Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Who's next?

Ok.. OK don't push.

Name: Roger Myhre    UPP:66EAA-7   Age: 30
Cash: Adequate (but never enough)
Career: Computer operator 1 Term
        Unemployed (various straw jobs 1 term)
        Sensor operator Norwegian Navy 1/4th term+
        College (economics) 1 term

Belongings: .22 gun, comp mod2/bis, loadsa books, bike

Skills: Computer-3, Language(english)-3, Dice-rolling-3, Sensors-2,
History-2, Cooking-2, Small craft-1, Vehicle-0, Navigation-0,
Absentmindedness-4

After I finished my conscripted duty in the Royal Norwegian navy I was
introduced to RPGs by a friend. A Swedish system called Mutant. I
liked it and decided to buy my own game, but I wanted something more
"realistic" FS RPG. The choise fell on MT which was fairly new in
1987. And I have never looked back since. I have also meddled with
other games as Paranoia, Torg, Albedo and the (A)D&D stuff. Never
owned the latter.

Other interests are Harpoon (For those of you who got Harpoon Naval
Review 1994 may have seen that I played in the Gulf of Sitra scenario
at GenCon 1992.), biking, and computers.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:54:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:45:22 -0700
> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
> 
> All the talk about vacuum tubes reminded me that I read somewhere that
> Isaac Asimov got his PhD in physics -- vacuum-tube physics -- about a month
> (or some short time) before the invention of the transistor was announced.
> Oof.

The good doctor received his doctorate in biochemistry, so you must be
thinking of someone else.

> Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next 1-10
> years that will have as great an impact on our society as the transistor?
> If so, what is it?  

Well, if I could describe it, I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time
posting to the TML -- I'd be shopping for a mansion up in the Hollywood
Hills. :)  But I think the next thing with a similar impact is going to be
nanofabrication technology -- not necessarily in the Drexler sense (little
teeny robots crawling around building things), but rather the general
ability to produce components 'machined' on the atomic scale in industrial
quantities.  This will have immediate and profound effects on several
other technologies, most notably chip production and structural materials
synthesis.  Among other things, the results will be computers a couple of
orders of magnitude 'denser' (processing capacity per unit mass or power)
than present models, and ultralight/strong/tough materials for vehicles,
buildings, and other applications.

> The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
> storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
> like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.

That'd be nice, too...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1245
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1246



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Jump time
Re: orbits
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re:Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium
Re: THUDDD FAQ
Re: IR Masking
About us
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Gun damage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:06:55 -0800
> From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
> 
> If you don't want to wreak havoc with the established background material,
> but still want to change the duration of jumps, maybe you could define it
> so that 'objectively' -- to observers in the system of origin and
> destination -- the jump takes 168 +/- hours, but 'subjectively' -- to the
> folks inside the jump bubble -- it's some other length of time.
> Instantaneous, one day per 'dimension' of jump space, whatever.  Any ideas
> on how that might work?

That certainly does far less harm to the background, of course.  It also
helps solve the eternal "how to roleplay jump transit time" problem...in
the absence of cantankerous passengers, hijacking attempts, or whatnot,
it's far too easy to fall into the habit of glossing over the weeks of
jump, which in turn does a disservice to the 'realism' (so to speak) of
the game. 

There is an interesting side effect, though.  Crews of ships which jump
frequently (the trader being a classic example) end up spending roughly
half their time in jumpspace.  If you collapse subjective time in jump to
zero, merchants end up aging half as fast as the general population.  The
ships themselves would age half as fast, too, reducing maintenance
requirements.  One could imagine circumstances in which jump would be used
like a weak version of Vinge's 'bobble' technology, with ships doing a
series of in-place jumps with rapid refueling in between to skip rapidly
into the future.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

Date: 19 Apr 1997 17:06:32 GMT
Message-Id: <3242721278.62402357@nybe.north-york.on.ca>
Organization: North York Board of Education

>absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Shouldn't that be: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of abstinence"?  :-)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 1997 14:09:11 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

>If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
>the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
>alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

Sounds OK by me.  Teen pregnancy relates to family structure, which certainly
affects a science fiction setting.  So does a culture's attitudes towards
socializing pharmacueticals (eg. nicotine, alcohol).

So what ideas did you have on these topics?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 1997 02:40:29 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Starship Displacement Tonnage

>Which would measure the mass in tonnes (on earth anyway - would different 
>world have different water displacements?)

No, the displacements would be the same.  The ship will displace water
equivalent to its _mass_


>I would expect a Close escort to actually mass in the region of 4000 tonnes 
>(4,000,000 kg)

The Gazelle Close Escort masses 4710 tonnes when fully loaded with drop
tanks, for a volume of 5600 cubic metres.  Without the drop tanks, mass is
4200 tonnes, volume is 4200 cubic metres.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 1997 02:48:12 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

>The question is:
>
>Which starship combat system is your favorite?

Brilliant Lances, hands down.  Gritty, realistic, and fast-playing.  (That
is, fast-playing after you've filled out the control panels.  I did that one
day while in bed with the flu, and after that even pickup games are a snap.)

After that I'd place Battle Rider, followed by Mayday.

Never liked High Guard as a combat system - seemed too much like "Wooden
Ships, Iron Men" in space.

MegaTraveller was OK, but too much complication for not enough realism.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 1997 21:21:34 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: All Tech Levels

>Outside the cities, most of Mexico is about TL1, if not TL0. Little
>changed since the conquest.

Depends on what you're measuring.  Large-scale industrial production is
lacking, true, as are native-designed computers.  Medical technology is
considerably better than TL0/1, though.

Traveller tech levels really should be specified in catagories (as in World
Builders Handbook), rather than as a single digit.  Possibly even
differentiated by region.  As well, alternative technologies should be used. 
None of which invalidates the basic code given in a UWP, just expands it.  

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 1997 21:28:20 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: All Tech Levels

>In Trav terms, how much of a planet's TL has to do with the best tech it's
>imported or created, vs the living conditions (mortality, literacy,
>disease, life expectancy, roads, communications, etc.) for the bulk of its
>people?  

In MegaTraveller, the stated tech levels represented achievement tech levels:
the highest technology available on that world.  It may be imported, and
common tech might well be several levels below.

Thus, Earth has a tech level of 8.  Some fields are at level 9, others
aren't.  The majority of the population lives at a lower tech level, and even
in the higher-tech countries the latest technology is not evenly distributed.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 1997 17:12:16 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory

>1) I like the *idea* of fighters in Traveller, but don't
>see how they're widely useful in any practical way

In MT/TNE, fighters are very useful against unarmoured, lightly armed ships
such as merchants, supply ships, etc.  In my Imperium, fighters are used much
like gunboats. They are stationed in orbit around worlds and bases; their
task is to investigate/escort incoming ships. Against a destroyer they are
nearly useless, but vessels like the Gazelle Close Escort (or your average
merchant) can be damaged/eliminated quite easily.

In essence, then, the job of a fighter pilot is to fly out there and
determine if more force is needed. 


Players in command of a naval squadron will not have to worry about fighters.
Players smuggling in a Far Trader will.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 1997 17:02:04 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

> Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
> a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
> knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with
> hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->

The best system (for combining 'realism' and speed) that I've seen yet is the
one in The Babylon Project.

Hit effects are determined by hit location and weapon type, with immediate
effects being limited to (a) am I still standing, (b) can I still use that
location, and (c) am I bleeding enough to require immediate first aid?  After
the combat is over there's some simple procedures that determine the specific
damage, medical attention required, and recovery times. 

This system _is_ fairly deadly, just like combat in B5, but it is actually
faster and easier than TNE and T4.  (Basing easier on being able to use it
after reading the rules once.)  I haven't rated it wrt MT and CT, because
those systems are 'second nature' to me now.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 1997 13:57:40 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: All Tech Levels

>Just because a country can't afford as many research labs to make 
>technological breakthroughs as it's big neighbor does, that doesn't 
>mean that it's on a different technological level entirely. Give them 
>the financial possibility and they will have the same capacity!

There was an article in Scientific American a while back that looked at how
difficult it was for a researcher to get published in the mainstream
scientific journals if he/she wasn't from an industrialized country. 
Included examples where papers were rejected when sent from a place like
Brazil, then the same paper was accepted when it came from America.

The authors concluded that, statistically, the address of a researcher made a
difference as to whether or not their paper was accepted.

My father, who recently retired from the biomed field, remarked that a lot of
the "new discoveries" in medicine in the last decade have been the result of
researchers interviewing locals in Third World countries, recording their
home-grown cures, and investigating them.  Naturally, the researcher gets the
credit for this discovery, even if they can't explain why it works!  (Rather
like how the famous explorers "discovered" vast parts of America and Africa:
write down what the locals tell you, then publish it under your name ignoring
your guides.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:37:55 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Re: Jump time

>Douglas is absolutely correct. I would say that if you don't like the 7-day
>jump period, play Star Wars!

But then Traveller is menat to be a generic SF game, adaptable to a variety
of backgrounds and styles.=20

>Seriously, the jump lag time is so crucial to the history of Traveller, no
>one should really consider changing it.=20

To my mind the 1 week idea is good. It allows for a lag in communications
that adds to the overall feel of the game universe, imho. I like the lag
time as it stands, but am open to suggestions on how it could be changed,
and how these changes would alter the game universe.

>Chris Griffen

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:34:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: orbits

> 
> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:33:18 +0200
> From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
> Subject: re: Asteroid belt question
> 
> So another question :
> 
> Is it possible to have a much higher density than the belt in our system.
> Let's say more than one significant body per km3. If that case, do two near
> asteroid follow quite the same orbit?
> 
Getting an asteroid belt with the kind of densities seen in Empire, is
possible on short term scales. It was mentioned earlier that a field with 
higher density could be the result of a larger body that had just broken up.
Over time, because of collisions within the belt, the field would tend to 
evenly distribute itself over a toroidal envelope centered on the orbit of 
the original body. Objects would only leave this region if pushed by some 
external force. Because the chaotic dynamics of the many body problem, two 
near by asteroids would tend to travel very different paths, and therefore
would not remain close.

I can't remember the the length of time since Grandfather's war, but I'd
guess that any worlds demolished then would have had time to redistribute 
themselves along their original orbit. 

Even a field placed out in open space would eventually collapse in on itself 
unless the pieces were quite far apart.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                |                                   |
Don Stark                       |           ,/7_                    |
                                |          /   _`,                  |
Naval Research Lab, Code 7322   |         (.)\) \|_                 |
Stennis Space Center, MS 39529  |          0    /^~'                |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
e-mail: stark@nrlssc.navy.mil   |                                   |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
Phone: (601) 688-4151 work      |              ' )( `               |
       (504) 639-3844 home      |   ~~~~~~~~~~~''  ``~~~~~~~~~~~~   |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:33:18 +0200
> From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
> 
> Is it possible to have a much higher density than the belt in our system.
> Let's say more than one significant body per km3. If that case, do two near
> asteroid follow quite the same orbit?

You can't have a (relatively) stable belt with a density much higher than
Sol's.  Squeeze objects closer together, and both the collision and mutual
perturbation rates go *way* up; soon, the belt density is back down again
through material being ejected, and the mean object size is reduced
through collision shattering.

Two nearby asteroids will follow slightly different orbits.  If they're
close enough, they will mutually perturb one another, complicating
matters.

Several people have mentioned that ring systems (e.g., Saturn's) are much
denser than the asteroid belt.  This is true.  However:

- - Saturns's rings are *not* stable in their current configuration.
  They are losing mass and broadening over a geologically short time
  scale.  Within a few hundred million years, they'll be a pale ghost
  of what we see now.

- - Mean object size in the jovian planets' ring systems is on the order of
  a centimeter or so.  This relatively fine grain size helps keep the
  rings a bit more stable than 'chunkier' systems would be at the same
  mass density.

One other thing to mention is that (as others have noted) asteroids do
appear to have smaller asteroid 'satellites' at times; Galileo spotted a
small body (now named 'Dactyl') orbitting Ida as it passed the latter.
New models indicate that such satellites might be fairly common in the
main belt.  So on a fair number of asteroids, there would be one or two
hunks of rock in visual range.

Another point worthy of attention is that some earth-crossing asteroids
appear to be several distinct bodies in contact with one another, like a
pile of boulders, bound by self-gravitation.  Such might result from
low-energy impacts, as when two asteroids on nearly identical orbits
collide.  Debate continues on how many asteroids are boulder/gravel piles
bound by self-gravity, and how many are single solid objects.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 19:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

In-Reply-To: <33598B24.5A54782E@tiac.net>

<< If I started a thread on this mailing list regarding teen pregnancy in
the Imperium, would people deem that appropriate?  or how about
alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...

or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
one, or how about Political Correct behavior in the Imperium, I bet
there's alot of people on this mailing list who would like that :) >>

Sounds fine to me.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 19:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970420162733.7000D-100000@chass.utoronto.ca>

<< There are few "universal" cultural taboos, child molesting and
incest being two of them.  I think one could make a good argument for them
being universally repugnant in the future. >>

Debatable. The ancient Egyptian pharaohs (sp?) tended to marry within their 
families so as not to dilute the purity of their bloodlines (and I doubt they 
are unique in that). As for pedophilia, that depends on the age of consent. 
When does someone become an adult? 21? 18? 16? It wouldn't be unusual (even 
here on earth) for a couple, legally married for several years, to move 
abroad and find that in their new home they are too young to have sex.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 19:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418173733.006b855c@mail.pcisys.net>

<<  Wow! This just raises a really big question in my mind--I don't really
care either way about whether Norris pitches or catches... but what about
sexual orientation in other Traveller species? Especially one like the
Aslan, which has gender-specific behavioural patterns that seem to be at
least in part biologically driven? And how does sexual orientation affect
those? >>

Hmm...let's think.

Aslan: it's one of the questions you don't ask (like, 'tell me again how you 
invented the jump drive'...) If it happens at all, it's behind closed doors, 
and never discussed (unless you really like duelling).

Vargr: they'll happily f*ck anything that stays still long enough.

Hiver: <wiggles arms>

K'Kree: anyone even thinking about it is immediately trampled to death.

Droyne: probably never even occurs to them.

Vilani: frowned at, but accepted as long as it doesn't affect your work.

Solomani: so what if you're gay? Now, sex with a Vilani, *that's* sick!

Zhodani: either perfectly acceptable, or stamped out immediately - I haven't 
decided yet.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:14:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re:Jumpspace Passing of Time

***WARNING***
This post is by a heretic. All 100% canon followers should ignore this post
and move along to the next one.

(putting on asbestos suit)

>>>....the jump lag time is so crucial to the history of Traveller, no
one should really consider changing it.....<<<

I agree but I did it anyway. 

In my universe, I have the "proportional" jump drive. A ship may complete a
jump of lesser value than it's drive rating in a proportional amount of time.
For example, a ship with a jump2 drive can perform a 1 parsec jump in only
half a week. To compensate for this, more fuel is consumed. Here's how it
breaks down for a jump2 ship:

Distance        Time           Fuel Consumed
2 parsecs      1 week       Whole tank
1 parsec        1 week        1/2 tank
1 parsec        1/2 week     Whole tank

It DOES affect communication on the local level. YES I have altered the
timeline to account for this. I DO NOT recommend it, unless you don't have to
work for a few months and really have the urge to do so.

However, it does NOT affect long range communication. Jump 6 is still the MAX
jump drive (at TL15: Maximum Imperial) available. It still takes a long time
for info to get from Capital to Deneb or Regina or Earth or wherever you're
at.

Ships are expensive! Besides corporations, governments with a large tax base,
and the extremely wealthy, who can afford a ship, much less one with a souped
up jump drive. Who's going to bankroll Joe Merchant's startup company? Banks
are going to be reluctant to due to the inherent dangers of space travel and
the possibility that Joe Merchant is going to run off and not pay anything
more than the down payment. (Call in the Repo Men)

From a merchant's standpoint, what should he get? A quicker ship with less
cargo space (lost due to fuel & engine space requirements) or the slower ship
with more room for cargo. In my setup, the quicker ship has higher operating
expenses due to higher fuel consumption and a higher investment cost due to
 the engines. It's up to the individual merchant to figure out the economics.

I don't expect anyone here to actually be swayed into even seeing my point. I
just wanted to present it. Guess I'm a bit of a masochist, but that's another
thread. ; )

(awaiting immolation)
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:03:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:

> Okay, sort of off-topic, but maybe someone can make use of it.
> 
> All the talk about vacuum tubes reminded me that I read somewhere that
> Isaac Asimov got his PhD in physics -- vacuum-tube physics -- about a month
> (or some short time) before the invention of the transistor was announced.
> Oof.

Are you sure? I know for a fact that the Good Doctor had a PhD. in
Biochemistry (go squishheads!) from sometime in the Mid 50's. Gaaaaak
gotta go reread his autobiog...

> 
> Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next 1-10
> years that will have as great an impact on our society as the transistor?
> If so, what is it?  
> 
> The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
> storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
> like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.

	What, tell and miss on all the potential riches? ;-)

	Well, if I were to speculate, I would lay my money on some of the
astonishing advances they're making in solar cells...there are
experimental cells that are something like 80% efficient (yes EIGHTY!)at
converting light to electricity. They have some serious problems to
overcome, since the things are readily poisoned by 02, but man o man could
that make clean energy realllllly cheap in the long run. 

	Coupled with the advances they're making in polymer batteries,
which are very close to commercial use, cheap, light, powerful electronic
devices could become far more ubitiquous than today.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:47:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium

Kenji wrote about some 'Hiverish' humans

Write 'em up! They sound very interesting.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:51:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD FAQ

Hey hows about something NOT military oriented?? So far only one thuddd
contest hasn't been a military ship! How about a yacht, or Lab ship
design? 

Sheeesh.... and people bitched about _TNE_ being too militaristic!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:19:17 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: IR Masking

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:07 -0400, you wrote:

> >Ok, how about this.  Ships require jump fields to keep the physics and
> >environment of jumpspace (defined as a dimension) away from the ship
> >and its crew.  Collapse this field and the ship precipitates violently
> >out into normal space at a molecular level over a path of several
> >billion kilometres.  Since this field is necessary according to canon,
> >you cannot produce a hole in which to dump heat from our universe
> >without breaching this "barrier" (such as the jump field) which is
> >designed to prevent the dangerous interactions between two dimensions.
> 
> What hole? We're discussing an opening into another dimension within
> the ship that doesn't interact with the jump space dimension at all. Two

Sounds like a hole to me.  Perhaps you never read the *original* post
that formed this exchange of ideas?

> seperate dimensions, no overlap, no contact, no holes in the jump space
> barrier. And just like the jump dimension needs a jump field to be produced to
> act as a barrier between it and our dimension, the "heat sink" dimension 
> requires heat input to act as a barrier between it and us. 

"The 'heat sink' dimension requires heat input to act as a barrier
between it and us?"  What is this supposed to mean?  What happens when
too little heat is dumped?  A jump field that collapses while in jump
is catastrophic (read my description above).  A "heat field" collapse
would be equally catastrophic due to the different physics involved
(extrapolated from the only Traveller data I have regarding isolating
different dimensions).

Nowhere in Traveller canon does it state that jump field energy is
being "dumped" *into jumpspace* to prevent its incursion.  Since the
poster is a Traveller player and did not submit any new facts about
his theory (outside of the Traveller universe), I presumed we were
both using Traveller canon.

> >> But you can't introduce _new_ features to invalidate
> >> my suggestion. I postulate that a dimension has been found that can be
> >> used as a heat sink. The reverse is not true.
> >
> >The reverse is not true *ONLY* because you did not include it in your
> >original post.  I only included it to expand the thinking regarding
> >transporting energy from one dimension to another.  It is not
> >"untrue".
> 
> This makes no sense at all. He stated that a dimension has been found that
> allows you to dump heat. If you add in a dimension that we can suck 
> heat out of, you are no longer within the terms of his game world, and 
> are not exhibiting the "internal coherence" that has been written in stone
> on this list as of late.

Yet he/you is allowed to change or bring forth "facts" to support his
claim (like your reply above)?  How can I play his game if he's the
only one that knows the rules?

The original post for a dimensional heat sink was triggered by
someone's need for true IR masking in outer space.  Ignoring a second
dimension or method that could be used to draw heat out of would mean
that the original poster just invented the "perpetual motion machine"
and broke several conservational laws.  So much for "internal
coherence".

> >> No dimension has been found
> >> (either because it dosen't exist, or, well, because it hasen't been =
> >found
> >> yet) that will allow anyone to draw energy from it.
> >
> >And no dimension has been found that allows you to do what you are
> >trying to do.
> 
> Yes it has, he just stated that such a dimension exists/has been found. 
> Please keep the real world and the game world example seperate please.

Ow.  I detect angst.  Sure would be nice if I had something else to go
on, though.

The original poster asked anyone if they could come up with a theory
(that wasn't totally far-fetched and based on the Traveller universe)
to disprove his proposed existence of a dimension suitable for use as
a heat sink for purposes of IR masking (the word "hole" was mentioned
at one point).  That's it.  If I am limited to minuscule information
such as this, I stand about the same chance disproving his proposal as
I would have disproving that the world was "square".

I therefore assumed that this wasn't some sort of formal challenge and
came up with the casual reply you see at the top.  Since my reply is
nearly a week old by now and I haven't seen a reply from the original
poster, I suspect that my submission was enough to satisfy him.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:32:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: About us

In mail you write:

> I have a degree in physics, with concentrations in computational methods
> and economics from Harvey Mudd College.

Isn't that where ???? Stubbs (aka Hal Clement) teaches?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:00:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

In mail you write:

> Or there abouts, yes I would...if the game was intended to be campy.  In
> one game I'm in right now the nastiest villian is named Sid Nastie...Nastie
> because he *is* nasty, and Sid for the famous Sidney Whiplash.

Uhm, Eris?

That's *Snidely* Whiplash...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 01:19:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gun damage

In mail you write:

> Typical. Realistic combat usually means far too deadly. Combat is not
> as dangerous as some games would make it out to be. Face it, if
> combat was as deadly as the "realistic" systems portrayed it, then
> casualty rates in war would be in the area of 75%, rather than the 5%
> it is now

The thing is, in combat, most rounds are fired to make the other side
keep down, not at an actual person. 

Check the lethality of street shootings. Much closer to the "combat"
found in many games. That is, you are practically on top of the enemy,
and if you have any skill you won't miss. 

It's still possible to not hurt the target, but that's more dependent
on the weapon used. A .25 automatic, for example, has been known to be
stopped by a heavy sweater!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1246
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1247



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: conservations
Radiation shielding (was Re: Starship Combat & Nukes)
Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Asteroid belt question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:02:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: conservations

In mail you write:

>
> Shadow wrote 
>
>>Bruce,
>>Better refigure your argument. Remember, both KE and momentum are
>>*vector* quantities.
>
> Kinetic energy is a scalar, not a vector. 

It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.

If I wanted to do the trig, I could send *3* equal masses off at mutual
120 angles, and still get a total of zero. But I'd have to use complex
numbers for the KE of two of them.

>>The ship pushing on the star gives the star an
>>equal KE and momentum, but in the opposite direction. Total is *zero*.
>
> No. In some frames of reference the star slows down, and loses kinetic    
> energy; in others it speeds up (and gains energy); in all, the rate of
> gain of energy has to balance with the power being put into the pusher.

But the *total* KE of ship plus star is always *constant*. You only
have to make the energy expended equal KE gained in the frame of the
ship!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 04:18:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Radiation shielding (was Re: Starship Combat & Nukes)

In mail you write:

> As I understand it, nearby explosions of even *big* nukes won't do much
> damage from blast..lots of potential radiation damage though. All that
> radiation worries me.
>
> Oh, and that reminds me...what about sheilding from normal cosmic rays,
> especially the very energitic ones?  Just how much armor is even an
> unarmored ship going to have to have just to keep it's crew alive..not to
> mention fertile?

A high energy cosmic ray will go right through you doing very little
damage. Put a nice thick metal wall in the way and it'll hit a nucleus
creating *thousands* of secondaries, all of which are low power enough
to be absorbed by your body, doing *lots* of damage.

There is actually a point where if you can't add a *lot* more
shielding, you are better off with *no* shielding.

Solar flares are in the lower energy spectrum so those you do need
shielding from. Luckily LH2 is *great* at stopping protons. 

We really need more data about likely flare strengths at various
ranges. Could one of the astronomers on the list give us info about the
likely frequency and strength of flares on various types of stars? 

Then we'll need to figure out the shielding needed and how much good
it'll do against weapons.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:56:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

In mail you write:

>>In the Aslans' case, the proper
>>roles of females and males is influenced by their 3:1
>>female:male birth ratio. So what happens when humans
>>(with a 1:1 ratio) adopt Aslan culture on a large scale,
>>like Clan Zodia. (Individuals could make individual
>>sacrifices, but large groups would have to find ways
>>of institutionalizing those sacrifices so that it can
>>continue to function, even exist, as a coherent unit.)
>>Human clans are stuck with extra sons.
>
> Interesting!  Perhaps there's a disproportionately large number of human
> ihatei roaming around the fringes of Aslan territory, then.  Also, if the
> human clans adopted polygyny as well, there could be a real shortage of
> marriage partners even for first-born sons.
>
> Kinda far out here, but:  maybe these biologically human Aslan drew on
> their Solomani ancestors' genetic engineering expertise to skew their own
> birth pattern to a 3:1 F:M ratio?  Not sure how it could be done, though --
> any of the biologist-types on the list care to comment?

Not a biologist, just a person who remembers trivia...

Selecting sex of human offspring turns out to be doable at an
*incredibly* low tech level. All you need to do is change the pH of the
vagina and cervix. Not even by that much. A change one way stops the
male sperm and slows down the female ones. A change the other way
doesn't stop the female ones but greatly slows them down. (I may have
this backwards, but you get the essential idea). 

This is actually causing problems in the real world right now as it
allows people in places like China and India to have sons instead of
daughters. And that's gonna be a *real* problem when those sons get
older. Yes, infanticide in the poorer classes is used too, but the
somewhat educated classes know about the trick and use it!

So the humans can easily skew the ratio quite a bit merely with
douches, or with dietary supplements of some sort.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:13:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

In mail you write:

> anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:
>
>>>It *would* be interesting to work out the mechanics of a system where
>>>delta-v cost depended on present speed wrt the nearest massive object,
>>>though.  Maybe I'll take a stab at it sometime soon...
>
>>Do it. It'll solve the near c rock problem as well.
>
> Yes, I'd be very interested in seeing the figure on just how much energy
> is needed for a ship of X mass and Y velocity.  So long as you can reach
> speeds of over a hundred kps in system travel times aren't that bad. 
>
> So, just how large a power plant would be needed to take a 1000 ton (mass
> not displacement) scout ship to 100 or 200 kps?  If its not *too* much
> above 50-100 MW we're in business.  I'd do it myself, but my physics days
> ended 15 years ago. 

As a post the other day pointed out, all that the size of your
powerplant does is tell you *how long* it takes to reach a given
velocity.

The formula derived was v=sqrt(2Pt/M), where v is velocity (m/s), P is
power (joules), t is time (s), and M is mass of ship (kg).

V^2=2Pt/M
MV^2=2Pt
MV^2/2P=t

So: 

1e5=100,000=m (100 tons)
1e5=100,000=v (100 km/s)
1e8=100,000,000=p (100 MW)

t=1e5*(1e5)^2/(2*1e8)
t=1e5*1e10/2e8
t=1e15/2e8
t=1e7/2
t=5e6

Not good, as that's 58 *days*. On the other hand, jump works ok for the
long trips. :-) 
With 6 GW, it takes less than a day.

If someone will give me the integral of v=sqrt(2Pt/M), then we'll have
a formula for the distance traveled as a function of time. If it's low
enough for a typical 100 diameter trip, then I think this is a great
solution. :-)

For what it is worth, I *think* the formula is d=sqrt(4PT^6/M)

d=sqrt(4PT^6/M)
d^2=4PT^6/M
Md^2=4PT^6
Md^2/4P=T^6

100 dia= 1,120,000 km
1.12e9 = distance
1e5=100,000=m (100 tons)
1e8=100,000,000=p (100 MW)

1e5*(1.12e9)^2/(4*1e8)=t^6
1e5*1.2544e18/4e8=t^6
1.2544e23/4e8=t^6
1.2544e15/4=t^6
3.136e14=t^6
t=~261

Hmmm, that *can't* be right. Either that, or the starting acceleration
will kill you...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 04:25:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

In mail you write:

> I have a question for Astrophysicists and armchair astrophysicists.
>
> In "deep space" (that is, an empty hex, or oort belt) I assume it
> becomes much more difficult to detect rogue comets, other spacecraft,
> and other stuff with passive sensors, since there is basically
> negligible reflected energy from the local primary.
>
> So, my question is: Is my assumption valid? Is passive detection of deep
> space objects so difficult as to be impossible? What about gravitic
> detection?

You will need good optics and a lot of patience to detect bodies out in
the Kuiper belt, much less the Oort cloud. Their IR signature will be
way down, and even if they reflect enough light, it'll take a while to
determine that they aren't a star! 

Best bet is to unlimber the big scope (say half meter or more), and
take a lot of pictures, wait, and take another set. Have the computer
check to see what light sources have moved.

> Next, if a active "sensor sweep" is necessary, what range does an object
> need to be in order to be "caught". I'm sure patience is necessary, to
> wait for light propogation... How long would such a sweep take? A lot of
> sky needs to be covered.

Well, a lot depends on how you are scanning. For example, it ought to
be possible to modify a det-laser warhead to generate a *microwave*
pulse. Do that and you just wait for the echoes. Anything that takes
more than an hour is likely too far away to help you anyway (remember,
Pluto is 5 light hours away from the Sun).

The "det radar" bit is borrowed from a proposal that Arthur C. Clarke
borrowed for a couple of his stories. They used a gigaton pulse to get
data on everything within a light day or so of the system. I figure a
smaller version should be good for 30 light minutes or so, and make one
hell of a "distress flare". 

If det lasers are allowed, then a few "adapters" for the warheads ought
to be standard equipment. 

> I ask these questions because of development of my misjump theory, which
> states that a certain gravity potential is *required* to exit jumpspace,
> which means there *has to be* a (relatively) large gravity well nearby
> after a misjump. I wish to know how difficult it would be to find the
> rogue comet, planet, or whatever "dark matter" is around in the middle
> of an empty hex.

Depending on how close and how big, the answer could be "it takes a day
or two" or "it's freaking obvious". Gimmee some data on how size(mass)
and distance are related in your misjump theory, and I'll give you a
better answer.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 03:08:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up

In mail you write:

> Negative attitudes and stereotypes that exist in the
> real world about gays very closely parallel Imperial
> attitudes towards Psionics: that it's a perverted aberration
> that violates the natural sanctity of one's own mind!
> They want to hump your BRAIN! AND YOUR KIDS' BRAIN!
>
> Seriously, most of the time PC's (or at least mine) treated 
> psionics lightly, as if having psions around (or being one)
> was just another tool, like having a big honking FGMP-15.
> The FGMP can be controlled easily by Law Level, but
> psi was more ambiguous, and too often fell through the
> cracks. If you're using psionics in your game, make the
> players feel that prejudice, feel like the gay guy at
> a Jimmy Swaggert revival(or just afterward, in a dark
> corner of the parking lot)[or in more intense cases, like
> a jew at a Nuremburg rally]. Make them understand that
> they're playing with fire to have anything to do with
> psionics. It adds loads more tension to ANY scenario
> with a psionics connection.

Just dropping a few minor news items into the local news should at
least start them thinking. Have some "psi-bashing" incidents in the
news, that sort of thing. And have some *very* anti-psi jokes. About on
the level of the one about the two rednecks out hunting when one gets
bitten by a snake while taking a leak....

That sort of thing can set up the right attitude or at least have it in
the background so that when they get nailed they can look back and
realize that they should have expected it.

> Separate, but related to this, is the prospect of 
> segregation in the Imperial armed forces.  Some
> segregation exists in the case of non-humans for
> sheer, biologically-driven logistical purposes.
> Since it is not a role of the Imperial military
> to act as an assimilating, homogenizing influence,
> there will be cases where local prejudices (against
> women, against men, against aliens, against gays, 
> against people who bathe regularly,  against people who
> don't bathe regularly,

Whoa! Those last two are a matter of *health*. As in it reduces the
chances of things spreading in crowded barracks or troop ships. So that
is something that they *will* have to teach, just like teaching the
backwoods types about using the 'fresher instead of the bushes around
the barracks.

> against certain hair lengths,
> against people who think premarital sex is immoral,
> against people who think post-pubescent abstinence is 
> perverted, etc. ad nauseum) are enough to impede unit 
> efficiencey if they're all tossed together, but not 
> enough to justify excluding them from Imperial service.
>
> Might the command structure wink at segregating units
> along some general social lines? Might there be all-male
> or all-female units for people who just can't accept
> orders from the other sex? Or maybe sex-segregated
> units are the norm, but there are certain mixed units
> for people from worlds where, socially, that is important
> for any number of reasons. Unofficial segregation based
> on local prejudices might have added to the "regional
> loyalty" problems in the Rebellion Era.

I suspect that when dealing with cultures as diverse as those found in
the Imperium, they will have rules about not putting folks from *this*
culture in with folks from *that* culture.

I also suspect that they'll go back to the idea of units being
generally homogenous with respect to the culture they are recruited
from. You'll tend to stay with the same "unit" (say regiment or larger
unit) for your whole career. You'll just swap around inside it as you
pick up skills and rank. 

This has advantages in that it's easy to grab a unit to put down an
"uprising" and *know* that they won't be sympathetic to the wrong side.
And it makes cuylture and tech level clashes less of a problem. 

There are likely also rules about which cultures work well together. So
if you are from a "new" culture, they can check for similar cultures
and assign you a unit based on that. If they get enough from your
world, you may get shifted together into the same sub-unit, just to
make it easier to handle you.

Heck, the various minor human races likely have developed *real*
differences in things like tolerance for heat/cold/humidity, and
sensitivity to or need for certain types of food or chemicals. 

If folks from XYZ are generally allergic to cheese, then it's a lot
better to group them in the same unit (lactose intolerance is just
*one* example of the sort of thing that can occur over a lot less than
300,000 years!). 

And you definitely *don't* want to mix troops from a hot, dry "desert"
world with ones from a cool, wet world. They won't be able to sleep in
each others barracks due to temp and humidity problems. They may be
acutely uncomfortable just passing thru each other's bunkrooms in a
troop ship!

> Whatever the reason, your players might just encounter elements
> of the 33214th Imperial Marines, The Amazons, composed 100%
> of human females for whatever reason the GM sees fit. ;)

Remember, the Theban "Sacred Bands" were all one sex, and lovers on top
of that. If anything, it made them *better* fighters because of the
effect on morale. You don't break and run with your lover standing next
to you. Not unless things are *really* bad. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 04:38:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

In mail you write:

> A little background might help set the mood. I was at a friend's place
> yesterday, and amazed her by showing that the touch sensitive lamp she
> has doesn't work if you tap it with socked feet, it requires bare skin
> contact to turn it on. Coincidentally, we were at another house later
> on, and noticed the metal-plate dimmer switch which again uses the human
> body to complete the circuit.

It's against code to use the body to *complete* the circuit. What you
likely have are capacitance operated switches. They rely on the idea
that placing a dieletric material near a conductor changes the
capacitance of the conductor. This is how those elevator buttons that
don't seem to move, but do light up, work.

> At the moment, my mind draws a blank when I try to remember the name of
> those switches, which are also quite popular in microwave ovens. Anyhoo,
> when touching that lamp I wondered out loud whether it would work if I
> were a vampire. Like the fact they can't be reflected in a mirror, would
> they also not be able to use these switches? We also wondered if a cat
> would be able to turn on the lamp. (Having cats on the mind, as my poor
> companion, Oscar, has had a health problem and has been at the vet under
> observation since Thursday. *sniff*)

Vampire, yes, as he's a fluid filled bag surrounded by a barely
conductive shell of skin. Cat, not likely, as the *size* matters. 

> Twisting this train of thought to Traveller, I assume these switches
> would be quite popular on some worlds at certain tech levels, since they
> don't require any moving parts (afaik) and therefore would be low
> maintenence and last quite a long time. I'm sure all branches of
> humaniti, and possibly Vargr (if the hair doesn't get in the way) would
> be able to use them.

As a worst case, you'd need a metal probe attached to something like a
wrist grounding strap to opewrate them. I proved to a friend that the
elevator switches *didn't* work off of body heat by touching them with
my old fountain pen. I held the plastic end and touched with the metal
cap. The fluid inside made it work.

> Now, not being that knowlegeable about the workings of these switches, I
> don't know if a specific resistance is required, or exactly how
> conductive the body part using them needs to be, but it got me thinking
> about xenobiology.

The part that touches doesn't necessarily need to be conductive. But
you need a large amount of conductive fluid in the body and a *small*
gap between it and the sensor. That's why socks didn't work.

BTW, if you touch this metal plate and feel a "buzz" or "vibration",
and it has a 2-prong plug, unplug it and plug it back in with the
prongs swapped.  The vibration means that the "ground" side of the
circuitry is connected to the *hot* side of the outlet. That's a damn
good way to get electrocuted!

> Does life *require* that the body be conductive? I suppose not, at least
> the outer part. Are electrolytic substances required for life as we know
> it? Would some race in charted space be unable to turn on the lights or
> operate a microwave on Vland, or Terra, or Sylea?

It's possible, but not likely. Thick skinned races might have trouble.
Low mass races (Droyne?) will *really* have trouble as the amount of
material makes a difference.

Capacitacance sensors are used as security in some military
applications. You definitely "tune" those to the approximate mass of
the animal you are looking for.

Take a wooden yardstick, a gallon jug, and some insulated wire (about 6
feet). Strip the insulation off the ends of the wire. tape one end to
the end of the yardstick, and hold the other end of the yardstick. Lay
the wire out along the floor in a straight line away from the lamp but
at right angles to the yardstick.
            +-----lamp
            |
            v
            * ---------------- wire
            |
            | yardstick.

Hold the unwired end of the yardstick touch the wire on the other end
to the touch plate. It shouldn't light up. If itdoe, try shortebing the
wire and making sure it isn't near any pipes or the like.

Next move over to where you can touch the free end of the wire and use
the yardstick to touch the other end to the touchplate. The lamp should
light. 

Now drop the end of the wire into the empty jug, and move back towards
your original position. Touching the wired end of the stick to the lamp
shouldn't turn it on. But if you add water to the jug, it will. If it's
a plastic jug, and you wrap the stripped wire closely around the neck
(where there is water in it) it'll likely *still* be able to trigger
the lamp.

Get the idea? It's a lot of conductive material *seperated* from the
touch plate by a *thin* non-conductor.

> If a finger-like appendage is used to operate switches, but if it were
> covered in a chitin-like substance (fingernails forex) it wouldn't be
> able to operate the switch. So, would that appendage be touch sensitive?

Not really. Your fingernails are effectively chitin. you can't feel
them, just the pressure they exert on the tissues around them.

> Do nerve endings require that the appendage be conductive? I'm not
> exactly sure how the sense of touch works, but intuitively, I assume
> electrical conductivity is required in order to "feel" things.

Nope. Touch is actually *several* different senses that we lump
together. Off the top of my head there are sensors for heat, cold,
pressure, "sharpness", etc.

Pressure works by compression of tissues. "sharpness" works by noting
that the compression is very localized (and if you have a friend
experiment with a pin, you'll find areas where you *cannot* feel the
tip of the pin!). Heat and cold are likely measuring the "flow" of heat
(ie comparing the effect on surface strands and deeper ones).

We have a *lot* more than five senses. I seem to recall a figure
somewhere around 13 to 15?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:12:58 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

Anders Backman wrote:
> Different switch. Uses two metal films with spongy plastic in between. As
> separation between the films diminish the capacitance increases which is
> what is measured. Waterproof cheap switches that can be used a long time.
> The old metallic touch switches are on their way out in modern products.
> You mostly see them on Amarican consumer electronics

	Ah. Must've been a good version, then: it didn't feel spongy 
like the other one's I'd used.

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:47:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters vs. Nuclear Dampers - Which is Best, and When?

In mail you write:

>   Okay, but I seem to recall that sandcasters can be used to target
> missiles, at least in some versions of Traveller space combat, by acting
> as giant shotguns (in one version) or as blocking the damage (if missiles
> are treated as det-lasers).  Am I miss-remembering something that was
> actually just a discussion of possible combat systems?

Reality check time.

If the "sand" is thick enough to stop or at least cut down laser
damage, any missile flying through it is *toast*. Picture turning a
sand blasting unit on the missile. Only the sand is moving at tens to
hundred of km/sec relative to the missile.

The "pitting" is going to be centimeters deep. maybe even decimeters...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 00:58:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

In mail you write:

>>...or how about alcoholism in the Imperium, now there's a juicy topic...
>
>         Good thread.  What about controlled substances?  Are there
> addictive substances that the Imperium recognizes or does NOT recognize?
> I once ran a scenario revolving around the smuggling of a substance (not
> unlike Khat on Earth) that was recognized as a controlled substance by one
> polity and not another.

One of the *classics* of SF, the Lensman series, is mostly about
conflict between societies that don't accept "drug" use, and a group of
societies that do. 

And I'd love to see how many players would catch on when told "the
girl/guy you picked up in the bar pulls out a vial of *very* purple
powder and offers you some..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:20:31 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>Hiver: <wiggles arms>

Translation:  "Never mind me... I like to watch."

What it's thinking:  "Hmm!  I wonder what would happen if..."

>K'Kree: anyone even thinking about it is immediately trampled to death.

Sounds about right... they can probably smell it on you, too, or something.
*Real* gaydar.

>Droyne: probably never even occurs to them.

Yeah, it could be that their behavioural hardwiring is more
specific/infalliable/whatever.

>Solomani: so what if you're gay? Now, sex with a Vilani, *that's* sick!

Hm, I'd have thought that some segments of Solomani society would
disapprove strongly -- things that might distract from breeding the Master
Race in quantities large enough to conquer the universe being intrinsically
*wrong*.

>Zhodani: either perfectly acceptable, or stamped out immediately - I haven't
>decided yet.

Maybe different degrees of acceptability depending on one's social class?
Unhealthy for the proles, fine for the nobles?  (Or vice versa?)

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:18:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>
> Yeah, but the Cmybeline chips go one better...their thought processes move
> on conductors made of pure metal, not ions in water. There are minor
> disadvantages, though...they can't move very well ;-) 

Try *semi-metals* or semiconductors. Silicon *ain't* a metal, as I can
cheerfully demonstrate with some of the paperweights I still have for
when I worked at the wafer production facility.

> Actually IIRC I think there are some forms of life here that use copper in
> an analogous way to iron...I'm pretty sure they're all bacteria though.

Nope. It takes multicellular life to *need* that sort of oxygen
carrier. Single celled life just uses osmosis across the cell membrane.

And you've almost certainly *eaten* life forms with copper based blood.
Crabs, Lobsters, shrimp....

> And chlorophyll actually has a magnesium based 'heme' molecule at it's
> core structurally very similar to the heme moiety of hemoglobin. I'd have
> to look back at my biochem books to make sure, though.

Yeah, I'd forgotten that one. But it's likely the origin of all the
others I mention.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:09:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

In mail you write:

> Ick. A xenobiology thread could get ugly real quick. In terrestrial
> life, oxygen is carried by hemoglobin, which is iron based. Spock uses a
> copper-based carrier. (Dunno if that's feasible tho')

*Most* terrestrial life uses hemoglobin. Most molluscs and arthropods
use hemocyanin. That's copper based, and bright blue when oxygenated,
clear when it isn't. So a hemocyanin based critter would bleed blue
from arteries, sort of cloudy clear/milky from veins.

There's another iron-based respiratory pigment called hemerythin(sp).
It varies between brick red and pink. It is of interest because it is
unaffected by several gases that bond irrevocably to hemoglobin, such
as cyanide. So it might be found commonly on world with a cyanide or
similar taint in the atmosphere.

It's been years since I researched this (for anarticle for JTAS that I
never got around to writing), but I seem to recall another copper based
pigment, and a nickel based one. The prize is a species of sea slug
that uses hemo-vanadin, an apple green *vanadium* compound.

> I imagine that
> salinity levels differ between different aliens, possibly within
> different branches of humaniti.

Not nearly enough time for that to happen to humans. And it'd require
*major* modifications to most biochemical systems in the body.

> It occurs to me that the TML in general puts a lot of thought into how
> future technology works, how future and alien societies work, but not as
> much time gets spent (wasted) imagining how alien metabolisms work...

See above. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:51:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

In mail you write:

>
> I was saw "Empire Strikes Back" last week (cult movie)
>
> Remember when the falcon goes through the asteroid field, all the aseroids
> where moving toward each others in all direction
>
> I was wondering if this was a realistic view of asteroid belts or if (more
> like I think) asteroid are all moving on concentric orbits so their
> relative position is quite stable and fixed.

Neither. In an asteroid belt, you'll need instruments to see other
asteroids. They'll be hundreds if not *thousands of miles apart. Work
it out. There are maybe a few thousand asteroids bigger than a mile.
Now figure out the area of the belt (an annulus between the inner and
outer radii of the orbits). Divide the area of the annulus by the
number of asteroids. They'll be a *long* ways apart.

Heck, the belt is about 2.4 AU typical orbital radius. That's a
circumference of 15 AU. or about 2250 *million* km. Assume all
asteroids have that orbital radius and that there are 100,000
asteroids. That means that they average 22,500 km apart. That's a
*long* ways. And getting 100,000 bodies of say 100 meters or large is
gonna be one *dense* belt (work out the total mass and compare it to
the mass of a small planet)

The relative positions aren't fixed because different orbital radii
mean different orbital periods. So unless they are close enough to
orbit each other, asteroids that are "close" right now will be a good
chunk of the orbital circumference away in a year or so.

So asteroid belts are *nothing* like any movie, and very few books get
it right.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1247
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1248



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Xenoconductivity
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Jump time
RE: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 
Asteroids
A Minor Human Race: The Forlorn LONG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 01:03:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

In mail you write:

>>> Why not a long thread on the status of child molesting as an acceptable 
>>> alternate behaviour, or bestiality?
>>
>>       There are few "universal" cultural taboos, child molesting and
>>incest being two of them.  I think one could make a good argument for them
>>being universally repugnant in the future.
>
>         Actually, I think you can find several groups, either today
> or in history, that have or are in favour of child molesting or
> incest.  Take for example, NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love
> Association, or some such noncense).

While most of them *are* reprehensible types, some aren't so easy to
dismiss. Why is an 18 year old capable of consenting to a sexual
relationship, but not a 17 year old? At *that* level, I *do* think we
need to take a look at our laws. An adult and a six year old is rather
different. <duh!>

Frankly, I hope that at some point we will find an *objective* means of
measuring maturity. Only thing is, I bet about 10-25% of the current
"adult" population would flunk the test.

Such a test would be useful in the Imperium, what with all the
different "races" of humaniti. But it could lead to trouble too.

> And while I wouldn't be surprised to find modern organizations in
> favour of de-criminalizing incest, my best example is the terrible
> inbreeding in the royal houses of Europe, or in ancient Egypt.

Once we get the ability to scan genetic codes easily, it *should* be a
matter of whether or not your genes are likely to cause problems for
offspring rather than how "closely" related you are. 

And that brings up the matter of "at what point do you tell people that
they aren't allowed to have children with each other because of
possible genetic abnormalities"? Because that's *all* the anti-incest
rules amount to as far as any non-religious basis goes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:24:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

In mail you write:

> I recently was working at a Macaroni Grill here in Wichita that 
> incorporated touch-screen computers as part of their order-taking 
> system (kinda like a touch-screen register). The thing that intrigued me 
> was that it would detect touches by a credit card (I used to use the 
> corner of the card to punch in the number if it didn't swipe right). Was 
> this a special kind of screen, one of those capacitance switches, or 
> something else entirely?

Something else. There are two main ways to do it. 

1. have a flat screen with IR emitters and detectors arond the edges.
   That gives a "row,colum" for the touch. If you can trigger the
   screen without applying any pressure, that's what they are using.

2. transparent membrane keyboard built onto the face of the screen. You
   have a layer of plastic, a layer of very thin wires (or strips of
   conductive film) running horizontally on the surface. Next you have
   a layer of plastic with holes punched out where they want you to
   touch.
                 +--+--+--+--+
                 |  |  |  |  |
                 +--+--+--+--+
                 |  |  |  |  |
                 +--+--+--+--+
   Then another layer of plastic with wires or strips, only this time
   they are running vertically, and are on the side facing the other
   sheet of plastic. Sandwich this together and put it on the screen,
   and if you press in on the places over the "holes" in the middle
   sheet (most of the screen :-) you make a contact. That gives row and
   column info and the computer takes that info and does whatever it
   was programmed to do.  The programmer just has to make sure that the
   display is lined up with the "buttons".

Can you tell that one of the other folks in my department had to design
a touch screen system? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 01:39:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

In mail you write:

>> No point kidnapping Einstein. He's not *that* useful for nuclear work
>> (our program made very little use of him), and he's no good for the
>> rocket program.
>
> You are right about that, in hind-sight, but there are two possible reasons
> the Nazis might try to grab Einstein:  1) They *think* he would be useful
> to their nuclear program, and 2) They think he would be useful to *our*
> nuclear program.  I believe they would want to deny him to the Allied side
> more than anything, and that being the case they would have assassinated
> him, not kidnapped him.  So, I propose..
>
> Goddard was assassinated not kidnapped, but this alerted the FBI that
> American scientists might be a target for Nazi agents.  The attempt
> ,several weeks later, to kill Einstein came on a street outside Columbia
> University while he was talking with Leo Slizard and Robert Oppenhiemer. 
> Slizard and Oppenhiemer threw themselves in front of Einstein and were
> killed, Einstein was only wounded.  Both assassins were killed by Secret
> Service agents assigned to protect Einstein.
>
> Einstein did not provide much practical help to the American
> Manhattan Project, but the loss of Leo Slizard was strongly felt. Finding a
> replacement with his organizational skills delayed the project by several
> months.

Slizard is also a loss as he took the pump technology that he and
Einstein had developed for a refrigerator and saw that it'd make an
ideal coolant pump for a reactor (the liquid sodium pumps at Hanford
are based on it).

>> In our timeline the Navy launched several Viking rockets (US design based
>> on the V2) from ships. And if Heinlein was in anything *approaching* his
>> "preferred" posting, he'd be attached to the Navy's space effort.
>> Probably arguing for rocket planes.
>
> I wonder about that...the Navy might have gone for sea-based launch, and
> that would have had to be missile, I'd think.

Nope. They *also* had a version of the V-1 (the original "cruise
missile", btw) that was launched from *subs*. And they'd always be
interested in better fighters. 

And looking ahead, the Navy *knows* it's the only service with
experience at keeping critical gear going for weeks and months at a
time without outside help. They really *are* best suited for longterm
space missions.

To quote an old Navy comment "When was the last time the Air Force had
to worry about their airfield *sinking*?"

> This would give us in the early 50's groups pursuing:
>
> Missile based systems
>
>     USSR    - in the lead with first satellite in orbit
>     
>     US Army - concentrating on artillery applications
>     
>     US Navy - working on sea-launch/landing applications
>
>     France  - behind everybody, but doggedly chugging along
>
> Rocketplane based systems
>
>     USAF - the X-plane program is putting single pilots into orbit, and
>            beginning to move into the Dynasoar program.
>
>     RAF - pursuing a piggy-backed rocketplane approach, and hard
>           at work on hypersonic materials and engine research
>           leading eventually to duel-mode engine HOTOL systems.

USN - 	working on cruise missiles and considering rocket planes for
	recon, interceptor, and even possibly as comm relays.

> Cmdr.  Heinlein, given the rest of RDR's timeline, *should* be posted to
> Area 51 as Naval Liaison Officer, and later as the coordinator for Project
> Green (let's let RDR decide just *what* Project Green is <G>).  Einstein is
> also there trying to make sense of the principals behind the wreak's
> partially reconstructed main drive, he's being assisted by a brilliant
> young Feyemann (who gives up smoking and doesn't die young of cancer).

True. The area-51 stuff would get Heinlein. And I bet he and Einstein
would be great at coming up with oddball ways of testing stuff to see
what it did (given what's known of Einstein as a "technical" person,
and Heinlein's open-minded approach to new ideas)

> And one more thing...let's get HOWARD HUGHES involved!  ;-> Maybe HH went
> the "high and fast" route rather than the "big and slow" Spruce Goose
> route.  Sure he *eventually* nutted out, but in the late 40's early 50's he
> still could have been an innovative force.  Maybe leading a private
> industry effort to produce anti-podal delivery systems for cargo and
> passengers.

The Navy would be interested in antipodal "skip-planes" as *cargo*
carriers. They tend to have more of a need to get urgent personnel or
cargo to oddball spots fast. The Army already has tons of people and
supplies at bases or tries to ship half the base. But if a ship needs a
lefthanded frammis, it tends to need it *now*.

And I bet that the submarine service will have its fingers in the pie
as they are likely to be the best experts on closed cycle life support
when real space *ships* get going.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:20:27 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>On 1997-04-22 22:06 thus spake Kenji Schwarz:
>
>>If you don't want to wreak havoc with the established background material,
>>but still want to change the duration of jumps, maybe you could define it
>>so that 'objectively' -- to observers in the system of origin and
>>destination -- the jump takes 168 +/- hours, but 'subjectively' -- to the
>>folks inside the jump bubble -- it's some other length of time.
>>Instantaneous, one day per 'dimension' of jump space, whatever.  Any ideas
>>on how that might work?
>
>You ~could~ do that. But then you'd have to keep track of a character's
>*apparent* age vs. a character's *real* age. For instance, if subjective
>time is instantaneous, and the character makes 52 one week jumps, that
>character looks 1 year younger than he is.

True... but what with low berths, anagathics, and slow drug (or is it fast
drug?), that's already a record-keeping burden.

>And imagine all the money players would save on life-support costs!
>That'll wreck a bit of canon, there. Also, I could sit outside a gas
>giant and make myself a nice time machine. (forwards, anyways) Jump.
>refuel. jump. refuel. jump. refuel. Let's see if "the man" can catch me
>if I run away to the future!

At least in CT -- the only rules set I'm familiar with -- shipboard L/S is
a pretty small part of the operating expense, except on passenger liners,
perhaps.  I don't see that reducing shipboard jump time can really "wreck"
canon in this regard.

As far as the time machine thing goes:  misjump.  Especially if they're
trying to hide and hugging a gas giant.  Besides, between each jump, "the
man" would have a full week to call for reinforcements, polish his lasers'
lenses, and get ready to intercept you again... whereas you'd have less (or
no) time to prepare.

I like the "instantaneous subjective duration" option on its own grounds,
but it's not very appealing in terms of playability... though like Craig
Berry points out in another message, the effects on the interstellar 'jet
set' over the years would be interesting.

The "jump dimension-determined duration" could be more fun.  Heck, if you
really wanted to put a twist in the canon, you could say the shipboard time
in jump is one week *per jump number*.  That wouldn't affect the speed of
communication and movement in the Imperium, but would sure change *how*
people travel.  X-Boat crews, for one thing, would be strange people...

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:28:46 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump time

At 06:37 PM 4/23/97 +0100, David & Anita Crowhurst wrote:
>>Douglas is absolutely correct. I would say that if you don't like the 7-day
>>jump period, play Star Wars!
>
>But then Traveller is meant to be a generic SF game, adaptable to a variety
>of backgrounds and styles. 

I always thought so too, but I think so less and less now.  T4 pushes the
Imperium much more than CT did (I never played the intervening versions).
I'll admit that I'm a bit uncomfortable with Marc pushing things like
"every adventure begins and ends at a starport", which has just a whiff of
Gygax-like "this is the RIGHT way to play my game" about it.  And, as
people here have said, changing the 1-week jump rule changes many of the
assumptions about the structure of Traveller society.

>>Seriously, the jump lag time is so crucial to the history of Traveller, no
>>one should really consider changing it. 
>
>To my mind the 1 week idea is good. It allows for a lag in communications
>that adds to the overall feel of the game universe, imho. I like the lag
>time as it stands, but am open to suggestions on how it could be changed,
>and how these changes would alter the game universe.

A few others have outlined some of the more basic changes, having to do
with the flow of information and physical control of distant systems.  The
1-week lag does make for a more colonial-Imperial society, which _is_ cool,
but which is also somewhat limiting in scope; the game is less generic for
this basic rule.  


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:28:28 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Who We Are was Re:Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory 

On Wednesday, April 23, 1997 9:53 AM, starwolf@sn.no wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:59:36 +0000, Garry Ward
> <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> 
> >Who's next?
> 
> Ok.. OK don't push.
< clip > 
> After I finished my conscripted duty in the Royal Norwegian navy I was
> introduced to RPGs by a friend. A Swedish system called Mutant. I
> liked it and decided to buy my own game, but I wanted something more
> "realistic" FS RPG. The choise fell on MT which was fairly new in
> 1987. And I have never looked back since. I have also meddled with
> other games as Paranoia, Torg, Albedo and the (A)D&D stuff. Never
> owned the latter.
< clip >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the 
> http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
> Universal Internet          |
>             Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

Another Albedo player???  COOL!

Roger!  Lets discuss the sociopolitical ramifications of the cubical
architectural style of ConFed diplomatic missions!  Also, have you seen
"Assignment:  Zho-Chanka yet?...

er, Hello all.  Looks like I've delurked here, so I'll give you my UPP:

Jeffrey Cornish	588BA6		TechSupport-2
(formerly enslaved by Radio Shack)
Not nearly enough MCr

Skills:  Ground Car-2, Computer-2,  Jack-of-all-Trades-2, History-2,
Science (all of 'em)-1, Artist-2, Writer-2

Equipment:  Ground Car, Computer, Convention Badge Armor.

RPGs played:  Paranoia, Tales of the Nameless Bar, AD&D, Call of Cthulu,
MT, T4, Albedo (my favorite)

Reason plays Albedo:  Have you ever read the comic series by Steve
Gallacci?
Good stuff!  Plots, sub-plots, Aerodynes, starships, Autonomous Combat
Vehicles (smart missles), The NET, political intriuge, combat that gets
characters hurt realistically, anthopomorphic characters, and more!

Hobbies:  Computer Tech Support (I have stories that would set your hair
on end...), RPG's, writing, drawing, procrastinating (oh, yeah, skill:
Procrastination-4, Absentmindedness-...er, um, I forget, like 5 or 8 or
something like that...) Anthopomorphics...

About that, I belong to a writer's/artist's project, "Tales of the
Tai-Pan," (http://www.eskimo.com/~baubo/taipan.html ).  Basically the
members of the project have each created a character (or two) that serve
as the crew on one of the project's ships: 

The Tai-Pan, a medium-sized free merchant,  (SL Wedge, displacement
~500,000 tons; once described as a "giant flying cheese wedge")
the Iktome, a larger merchant/pirate vessel,  (which makes use of a
false hull ('The Clam') to hide it's lines)
the Quantum Lady, a large luxury ship (resort city in space),
and the Ramanujan, a training/science vessel (a small university campus
in space). 

If anyone is interested, check out our web page.  A near complete
overview of the Tai-Pan universe is in there, and we do as much
handwaving to explain our 'Jump drive' as the TML does
(http://www.eskimo.com/~baubo/tpcontrb.html#overview )

Other notes:  love science, astronomy, history, etc.  Have subscriptions
to Science, Science News, Byte and others, so I like to think I know the
latest.

And that's enough blathering for right now.  

Lurk Field on!

Jeffrey Cornish
Appian Graphics Tech Support

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 18:44:23 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Asteroids

Mike Sellers wrote:
>Related to your second comment, doesn't the density vary somewhat?  And
>won't some asteroids orbit each other in small close groups by mutual
>attraction?  

Hah, I wrote a paper on this. There are asteroid families. These are
believed to come from the destruction of a bigger asteroid.  These
families don't orbit each other, they tend be near each other in the
sky and to have similiar orbits.  
Picture if the Earth blew up, after the pieces flew apart, the center
of the cloud of debris would still orbit around the sun in a year, and
would be close to the current path of the earth.   

Some people thought that Asteroids would actually orbit each other, but
after much searching, we have only found one binary asteroid (Ida and
Dactyl)  Dactyl is only 1km, while Ida is about 55km.  The early though
was looking for asteroids of the same size oribiting each other.  It
might be interesting to put in a binary asteroid in an asteroid belt
scenario.  It would one of the few times you would actually see two
asteroids at the same time.  

Some of the asteroids go backwards, these are called retrograde orbits
, but they are a minority.  They probably got that way after a
collision with other asteroids.  

Oh, I guess I'll join the Traveller who am I thing.  
I am a 5th year grad student working on my PhD in Astronomy at Georgia
STate Univ in Atlanta. I got my undergrad degree in Physics from
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy New York.   My Thesis is on
Differential Photometry of Binary Stars using Adaptive Optics,
Bispectrum Anaylsis and Non-Redundant Aperture Masking.  Those are all
techniques for doing high angular resolution astronomy.  

Lewis Roberts
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does a cow wear a bell?
A:Because its horns don't work.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:42:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: A Minor Human Race: The Forlorn LONG

This race evolved out of the discussion we had some time ago, regarding
orbital habitats, whihc rapidly degenerated into a "how quick can we blow
'em up" discussion.

These people were born, so to speak, to float.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The Forlorn: History

The Forlorn are a minor human race of unknown origin.  Commonly called
Gypsies, a term they dislike, the Forlorn (the Galanglic translation of
their word to describe themselves) are the only known zero-gee adapted
humans. 

The Forlorn, as near as can be told, seem to have originated somewhere in
the area of space trailing the Imperium (Milieu 0), possibly somewhere in
the Fornast sector, possibly more distant than that. Their planetary
culture apparently reached about TL 8 before some great calamity occurred
on their homeworld. The Forlorn themselves have only fragmentary knowledge
of that time, and no remaining records; much of their history has been
passed down in an oral tradition, this time is known only to them as 'The
Destruction'. 

Apparently they had some warning of the calamity, because they undertook a
desperate task: to save as much of their people, culture and history as
possible. 

A monstrous building effort took place on their home world, which
according to their oral tradition sapped all of it's resources. 

Hundreds of large sub-light ships were built, several millions of people
were placed on board for a journey that was supposed to only last,
perhaps, ten years, to nearby systems that their scientists thought
contained planets that would sustain them. 

At this point what happened is unclear. Tradition holds that whatever the
calamity was, reached out and overtook their ships, as well, before they
were completely out of the system. Apparently great damage was done to all
of the ships, many were utterly destroyed, most lost some functions. The
great fleet was scattered, as well. 

Through truly heroic effort, some twenty seven of the ships were brought
back together. All were damaged, many had hundreds of dead and wounded,
with failing life support systems, failing power generation, failing
control systems. 

Fortunately the people in the 27 had access to a large supply of material
and machinery destined for use on the now-unreachable target systems. By
cannibalizing their future, they managed to bind the 27 into a loose
association of structures, linked by tenuous threads, but linked
nonetheless. 

After 1500 years, they had traveled unimaginable distances, and had come
to know themselves as the Forlorn, the lost ones, as they passed star
after star, never having the delta vee their feeble propulsion system
could muster to stop at the ones their instruments indicated had habitable
planets, never finding one they could stop at that had anything but baked
vacuum rocks and vast, cold gas giants. 

As the centuries passed they became accustomed to their low gee world,
becoming masters at recycling, refashioning ships again and again,
stealing matter from the cold empty space, atom by atom, with huge
magnetic nets, that fueled their power systems, ran their lights, kept
their precious plants alive, kept them alive. 

They changed, physically, as well. Their ancestors had all been chosen for
their suitability of working in space, and the harsh first 500 years
ruthlessly weeded out all but the fittest. They slowly became slender,
lithe, conservative of air, and movement. The 27 could only manage 0.25
gravities in the parts that were able to spin for weight. Most of the
living spaces were permanently weightless. 

The web that bound the 27 became the culture that bound the Forlorn.
Cooperation was essential in all things, and each individual had a grave
responsibility to all, if they were to survive. Yet grim surroundings did
not mean grim people. They had access to a number of plant dyes to color
their world, and once the dreadful first few centuries passed, and they
learned to manage their world better, they were able to expand, have
families, start to live again. They had to, else succumb to the gnawing
despair that had robbed so many in the early years of their will to live. 

The 27 became a world of it's own, slowly growing, speeding through the
empty reaches of space toward their rendezvous with the Third Imperium. In
- -240, the first report of a rumored giant sub-light ship filtered through
the free trader network back to the Federation. By -180 it was clear the
ship was approaching, and it was steadily decelerating. It was headed
towards a system with a sparsely inhabited agricultural world in the
Geshaggere system. In -168, as they slowed to a wide looping orbit around
the primary, the Forlorn were astonished to find themselves met by other
humans in spacecraft. They were almost as astonished as the Scouts who met
them. 

Thus began the last upheaval in the lives of the Forlorn.

After 1500 years of believing that they were the only humans in existence,
the shock of finally coming to rest, and finding, not only humans, but
humans who could travel faster than light, humans who had spread to
thousands of worlds, humans who were already living on the beautiful
planet that they had come to think of as their new home was more than many
could take. To many this was a time as dark as the original Destruction.
To many their struggle to live over the last 1500 years had been an
exercise in futility...they thought they were the salvation of humanity.
An epidemic of depression and suicide swept the Forlorn. 

Worse, when some of them ventured down to the planet, they found it was
not a place they found fit to live in, it was dirty, smelly, disease
ridden. They weighed too much, many were utterly paralyzed from the
weight, and most of them suffered from horrible agoraphobia. They were
used only to no horizon in the space between ships, or a ships hull, at
most, a hundred meters away; a horizon line many kilometers or hundreds of
kilometers away left them reeling with dizziness, nausea, and a feeling of
panic. 

Soon, the survivors realized that after all this time, they HAD a home,
and it was on their familiar, beloved 27.  They realized that now they no
longer had to depend on capturing material atom by atom, but they could
comb the system they were in for material. They could construct large new
habitats, fill them with their recycler farms, their beloved strinthee's,
and grow. Their depression turned to exhilaration, as they realized that
they, of all the people they'd met were the most suited to living in
space. They had technologies far in advance of the Imperium, in some
respects: in the areas of large scale life support systems, zero gee
construction, long distance sensors and analysis, manipulation of magnetic
fields, hydroponics farming they were at least TL 13-14. In this they at
least had something to offer the Federation. They were fortunate their
first contacts were with a honest scout from an honest large corporation.
Their secrets weren't stolen from them, and their interests were properly
represented during the chaotic first years of their recontact with
humankind. 

It is doubtful that they'd be as lucky in today's expansionist
environment. 

The Forlorn: In the Imperium

The Forlorn have increased their numbers since arriving in the Imperium,
with a total population now somewhere around 5-8 million. There are
pockets of them throughout the old Sylean Confederation space. Forlorn
work teams are in high demand for zero gee construction, and Forlorn
designed life support systems are sold throughout the Imperium for use in
vacuum and hostile environment habitats. Forlorn researchers are found in
the IISS research branch, where they are working on long distance sensor
and survey techniques

Still, most Forlorn are still clustered in the Geshaggere system, living
and working in their growing cluster of habitats at Geshaggere's lagrange
points. They are acutely aware that they are, by now, quite different from
the people they have settled amidst, and feel considerably lost unless
they are with a number of other Forlorn. Their history of intense
community cooperation have made them even more group oriented than the
Vilani, though without the technological conservatism that marks Vilani
culture. They have a distinct language, that they work assiduously to keep
alive, as they do their rich oral history and traditions. 

They have a love of brightly colored clothing and surroundings, of music,
of food.  They have embraced a number of foods from their new
surroundings, blending them into their cuisine as the plants have proven
to be compatible with their farming systems. 

Outside of the Geshaggere system, they are most often found in family
groups of 15-45 individuals, never solitary. They have been the target of
more than a little discrimination, for their habits of travelling in
groups, their strange language, their habitual use of filter masks in the
presence of outsiders, and more often, their disdain for those they
consider 'Drangin', 'dirt-bugs', their derogatory term for anyone who
isn't happier living at zero-g in a nice clean space habitat. In other
words, anyone who lives on a planet.  Most Forlorn feel they are truly the
only modern humans, living free from their planetary bonds. All of endless
space is their homeland. 

Forlorn innovations:

Life support systems. Forlorn life support systems are really designed for
use in large habitats, or very large ships; they are unsuitable for use in
small ships. They are a combination recycling system/farm, using a
combination of plants, algae, and some rather exotic polymer and
metallopolymer membrane systems to maintain a healthy atmosphere, food,
and water supply over long, practically infinite periods of time. These
systems are much more efficient than current Imperial life support
systems, but need more attention and are at times quite susceptible to
'poisoning' by outside contaminants, such as heavy metals, bacteria and
fungi. They work best when a 'clean' system can be erected, such as on a
vacuum world, or in orbit, where some decontamination can be set up for
incoming personnel. 

They have smaller systems for use on board small ships, which are more
like small hydroponic gardens more than anything else. These cannot
replace full life support systems, but rather, provide an extra amount of
'conditioning' to the system, particularly the air supply, removing trace
irritants, and adding the impossible-to- replicate scents of living
plants. Ships that carry such systems do not receive any cut in costs for
life support, but can realize an increased 5-10% on middle and high
passage fare, because the systems simply make it more pleasant to be on
board. 

PC's could well want to invest in one of these systems, not only for the
increased revenue, but again, because it's a lot more pleasant to be on a
ship with one. 

Forlorn 'Life Conditioning Unit': Displaces 2 dT/100 dT of ship to be
'conditioned', requires minimal power, and requires 0.1 Crew member/ dT
for maintenance and operation, counted as Steward. 

Magnetic field manipulation:

The Forlorn's only resupply system during their centuries in flight were
their laboriously adapted magnetic radiation and particle shields (Their
original ships were to carry the fuel they needed). They became adept at
manipulating magnetic fields within the low power constraints of their
systems, filtering the scant detrius of interstellar space for hydrogen,
carbon monoxide, methane, and rarer molecules. They have a large practical
knowledge of this subject, but since most of their experience is a
significant fractions of c, the practicality and usability of their
technology is questionable in the much lower speed Imperium. Still they
have struggled to make some headway. 

MagSieve Magnetic 'sieve' for recovering low concentrations of material
from plasma, gaseous, or other extremely low density media. Basically a
variation of the Bussard Ramjet; this is a system that can collect
specifically sized molecules or atoms from some medium. Currently used
experimentally for recovering trace resources from cometary belts, the
upper reaches of Gas Giants, proto star systems, or similar environments.
This is currently experimental technology, and is still somewhat of a
'solution without a problem'. The advantage of this system is that it
could be converted to a rugged, automated system. Resource concentrations
may be low in Cometary belts, or particularly proto-star systems, but a
simple device that can operate for months or years without service could
collect a huge amount of material. Forlorn control of magnetic fields,
however is still pretty much confined to low power applications. 

Zero Gee construction:

Forlorn structures are marvels of maximum strength with minimum mass, and
their abilities to work on and manipulate structures in zero gee are
almost inborn by now. They have developed a number of specialized
composites and alloys for such use. Their structures are often designed to
withstand stresses in very defined directions, and Forlorn designs often
resemble elaborate spiderwebs of tension elements, often looking no more
substantial than balsa wood models. 

Forlorn structures are typically built in place as they cannot withstand
the forces required to boost them into position. However, they are often
far more economical of construction time, material and volume than
'normally' designed orbital hab's or structures, and have found a niche
for use as astronomical observatories, deep space sensor platforms or comm
relays, or belter habitats. 

Some of their engineering elements and composites are finding their way
into Imperial engineering practice, as well, and there is a noted Forlorn
occupying the Branfield chair at the Sylea Institute of Technology. Well,
she doesn't actually occupy the chair, but rather an orbital habitat near
Sylean Highport, which serves as a classroom/summer camp/laboratory for
students in her program of Alternative Construction Methods. She simply
telecommutes for all her ordinary departmental duties. 

Miscellaneous Forlorn Library data:

Groukit: This is one of the few plants the Forlorn were able to retain
from the Destruction. In it's most primitive, base form, it is a low, fast
growing, squashlike vegetable. It was originally intended to be a food
source and 'air conditioner' plant, since it has large leaves for
relatively high rates of respiration. It has been manipulated into a large
number of variants providing everything from dyes to food to fibers for
cloth. Even now, after an influx of new plants, the Groukit has an
important place in Forlorn agriculture, and even more, an important place
in the Forlorn heart. Every household has a large, lavishly cared for
Groukit in a place of honor in their main room. 

Strinthee: This is the only animal from their home world that the Forlorn
have left. All the other species they were taking with them were lost with
the rest of the Fleet. The strinthee is a small omnivorous quadruped,
massing 1-4 kilos, which occupied the same niche on their home world as
the modern house cat, as a pet and predator on small pests. Long
considered lucky on ships, both surface and spacegoing, there were
numerous strinthees on all of the ships of the Fleet. Strinthee's are well
adapted for zero-gee life as well, since the evolved from small arboreal
omnivores. They do not have prehensile taile or opposable thumbs, but are
otherwise quite dextrous. Strinthee's are as much a part of a family as
the any other Forlorn, and though they are quite inquisitive at times,
they will tend to stay within sight or scent distance of their family. 

Forlorn societal structure: The Forlorn, more than any other society in
the Imperium value the group, over the individual. Decisions, major, and
minor are often made by consensus. While this can slow negotiations with
non- Forlorn, this means that agreements are well thought out.
Paradoxically, though, the Forlorn value innovative thinking by
individuals as well, since many times throughout their history, it was
only the quick actions and ideas of individuals that saved them. Forlorn
schooling focuses a great deal on rapid, iterative problem solving: " Fix
it NOW, then fix it better, until it's done right" rather than "study it
to death, then fix it right"...far too often in their history what would
have been dead would have been them. The Forlorn, in other words, are
inveterate tinkerers. 

Since the entire 27 came to become, essentially, an extended village, the
Forlorn concept of 'group' includes all the Forlorn in existence. They do
recognize more immediate familial groups, and Forlorn living arrangements
are usually oriented around this size group, which will usually consist of
a biologically related extended family.  Forlorn are very gregarious,
though, and larger communities tend to still act in a very unified
fashion. The initial screening of their remote descendants, and the
intervening 1500 years of isolation, with the vastly smaller initial
population of the 27, means that the Forlorn, while considerably more
genetically homogenous than the Imperial norm, are relatively free of
genetic diseases. 

They are, in general, more susceptible to diseases and infections than the
Imperial norm. This accounts for their habitually wearing filter masks and
full cover outer garments in areas where they have wide contact with
outsiders and their pathogens, particularly in their rare ventures onto a
planet. Physically they are taller, much thinner, and often weaker than
the Imperial norm, although this is mostly the effects of life led at low
or zero-gee;  there are some Forlorn who are adapted to higher gee
environments. Most have long, nimble toes, as well, and some can use them
almost as facilely as hands. Zero-gee has other advantages as well. Most
Forlorn are quite long lived, due to the lessened strain of gravity on
their bodies, as well as the low calorie diet they maintain.

There has been some mixing of the Forlorn and Imperial humans, but their
greater susceptibility to disease and cultural differences have combined
to keep the Forlorn a fairly insular group, and 'adopted' Imperials are a
small minority. 

At home, Forlorn have a wide variety of dress, often in wild colors. Their
love of color and visual variety extends to the rest of their environment,
too. Forlorn habitats are riots of colors, small nooks and crannies filled
with bits of stuff, knicknacks, plants, materials 'put aside' (the Forlorn
are still fanatic recylclers...any bit of metal, plastic, wood or other
material that left over from anything, will get scooped up, and put aside
for recycling later.) Older Forlorn, in particular, also have a
significant 'thing-itis', the urge to collect all sorts of
'things'...mostly small and decorative, or something with some utility,
they are closer to the time when all they had was the 27; there are, in
fact a number of them who were alive before the fleet stopped.  They
remember the days when a small decorative object was truly a treasure,
when everything was assembled, atom by atom from the magnetic nets. 

The Forlorn, as a group have an acute awareness of the fact that they are
the ONLY of their kind that have ever been found. A significant sect among
them are the 'Ill'ikashi', 'Rejoiners' in Galanglic. They believe that
when the great fleet was scattered, the 27 were not the only ships to
survive. If they were able to survive, then surely there were others. They
believe that it is a duty of theirs to seek out and find their lost
people, knowing that this is a monumental task. Their rituals are mostly
small reminders of the lost ships; on more important occasions, extra
place settings are set out for the lost, as if they might appear at any
moment. Astronomy and other sensor-based sciences are honored professions
among the Ill'ikashi, and they form the bulk of the Forlorn who work for
the IISS. 

The majority of the Forlorn, however, believe that they were the only ones
spared, and it is their duty to retain their history and traditions. A
formalized expression of this is the 'Deltra Harissim', literally the
'Society of Makers', a honorary fraternity of engineers, another
profession held in high esteem by the Forlorn. Members of the group are
the keepers of the 'Marakin' or 'Ships Log'; the recorded history of the
Forlorn.

There are numerous facimile copies available, now that the Forlorn have
access to the materials and technology, but the Marakin, distinguished by
the capitalization, is still kept by the chief of the Deltra Harrisim,
using paper made from specialized groukit leaves. It is in the in the
center of Forlorn culture, on the 27, maintained now as a museum/shrine in
the Geshaggere system.

The Marakin itself consists of some 4700 volumes of hand written history,
stretching back to the time immediately after The Destruction and the
scattering of the fleet. The earliest books are never handled any more,
they are the original engineers hasty notes on construction of the
original 27, listing the modifications to the ships controls and
mechanisms, inventories of material, preliminary designs of recycling
equipment, all written on cheap bound notepads, scraps of paper, bits of
packing....anything they could get their hands on. The Marakin evolved
into a written history about ten years into the voyage, as it seemed that
they might, after all, just might make it. These earliest volumes are far
too fragile to handle, and much of the information in them is impossible
to get to, and what is known about the contents has been lost or garbled
over the ages. The Deltra Harissim are undertaking research into how to
access the records without harming them, and the Ill'ikashi are
enthusiastic partners in this, as they believe clues to their origin, and
possible tracking the Lost Ships lie in these books. 

They have contracted with the Alkhalikoi Institute of Archaeology on Sylea
in this endeavor, and several visiting scientists from there are living
and working in the 27. 

One of them, Dr Muthahti Vinoosh, has written a minor best-seller
recounting her time on the Marakin project, and with the Forlorn. This
light, affectionate portrayal of her hosts has earned Dr. Vinoosh
reciprocal affection from the Forlorn, and has softened their image as
insular, arrogant masked strangers for a wider range of people in the
Imperium. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1248
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1249



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gun damage
Re: Asteroid Belt Question
RE: Gun Damage
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
[off topic] Who we are.
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)
Who we are:
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Xenoconductivity
Bunks vs. staterooms
Re: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping
Re: conservations
Re: A Minor Human Race: The Forlorn LONG
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)
E-mail replies (Off-topic but necessary... sorry)
Re: conservations
Re: conservations (fwd)
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Viva La Revolution!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:24:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

 
> The thing is, in combat, most rounds are fired to make the other side
> keep down, not at an actual person. 
> 
> Check the lethality of street shootings. Much closer to the "combat"
> found in many games. That is, you are practically on top of the enemy,
> and if you have any skill you won't miss. 

This is a critical point that Leonard makes.  There is a big
difference between how the combat system models how often you hit
the target, and what a given hit actually does.  Since these are
separate in traveller, the damage system should be rather nasty,
IMO.

The to-hit probs should take care of making it less nasty overall.

So check the to-hits and see how likely it is.  If it is easy (
don't have T4 in front of me now) then I'd assume that it is under
more controlled circumstances.  I'd give -DMs for shooting while
moving or under cover, etc. So in a real firefight, hitting somebody
might be pretty rare (as a function of rounds fired), but if you get
hit you're in trouble.

> It's still possible to not hurt the target, but that's more dependent
> on the weapon used. A .25 automatic, for example, has been known to be
> stopped by a heavy sweater!

Damara autopsied a guy hit with a .25 that went through a window,
bounced off the table (grazing) and hit his chest.  Took off an
aorta (bad luck, eh?).
 
- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:24:46 -0400
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid Belt Question

I thought that I would jump into the discussion of asteroid "swarms",
especially the question about a swarm at the Trojan point of a gas gaint.
The real problem with swarms is their limited lifetime (on an astronomical
timescale). If the orbits are crossing and the asteroids are colliding,
they are loosing energy as well as being ground to dust. They would
eventually begin to merge into a single body due to their mutual
gravitational attraction. Depending on the level of the perturbations from
other bodies, the asteroids might form into a single body (perhaps with a
highly heated core from graviational effects) or never completely collapse
forming a cloud equavilent to a planetary ring. If the perturbations were
too strong, many of the asteroids would be ejected from the swarm too
quickly for this to happen. This is not to say at a swarm at a Trojan point
could not exist for a short (astronomical time scale) period. A large
asteroid could be captured at the Trojan point and break up, somewhat like
Comet Shoemaker-Levy (it passed within the Roche limit).


Planetary rings are a special case for stability resulting from the
interaction with moons. I've done some work with artifical satellite
break-ups in earth orbit. The pieces start off as a swarm, but very quickly
form a ring which spreads into a shell or torus. The driving factor here is
the distribution of velocities given to the pieces at the breakup. A very
low energy break-up would spread more slowly.

All of this is off the top of my head; it would make an interesting study.
The problem with being an astronomer is that you can think of all sorts of
factors and special conditions. (Also there is a reluctance to make a
definate statement that someone else can prove to be wrong.) There are some
n-body simulations available.  I've seen some for star clusters in Sky and
Telescope that could be modified. They may be at the Sky & Tel web site
software area.

It was an impressive scene in ESB!

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:20:26 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Gun Damage

On Saturday, April 19, 1997 10:02 AM, Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca
wrote:
> > Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
> > a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
> > knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with
> > hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> > Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->
> 
> The best system (for combining 'realism' and speed) that I've seen yet is
the
> one in The Babylon Project.
> 
> Hit effects are determined by hit location and weapon type, with immediate
> effects being limited to (a) am I still standing, (b) can I still use that
> location, and (c) am I bleeding enough to require immediate first aid?
After
> the combat is over there's some simple procedures that determine the
specific
> damage, medical attention required, and recovery times. 
> 
> This system _is_ fairly deadly, just like combat in B5, but it is actually
> faster and easier than TNE and T4.  (Basing easier on being able to use it
> after reading the rules once.)  I haven't rated it wrt MT and CT, because
> those systems are 'second nature' to me now.

Very similar to Albedo Anthropomorphics.  After rolling for the hit...
	 ( rolled on comparison chart based on  <[attackers skill + mods] -
[range/difficulty + mods]> ),  
...rolls are made for the location of the hit, if it penetrated any
armor, and the severity.  The severity table has 5 columns--each for a
type of weapon (1 is projectile weapons, 4 is for blunt melee weapons) a
roll of 2D, modified by hit location and weapon type is made on the
appropriate column.  Armor modifies the column if it is successful in
stopping the blow (i.e. flak vests change a gunshot wound into a blunt
trauma wound).  The result from the table contains two effects: type of
wound (Grazing, Minor, Major, Catastrophic) and the stun effect
(Staggered, Stunned, Knocked Down, Knocked Out).  It is possible to be
hit, stunned and recieve no wound, but there's almost no chance to take
a wound and not be stunned.

For example, Joe Furry, EDF, is wearing his flak armor and is hit by
sniper fire.  He's hit in the upper arm where he has the benifit of a
shoulder guard.  A quick comparision roll of the weapon's penetration
vs. his armor reveals his armor has not been breached.  
The flak armor's impact distribution is 2, so a roll is made on the 3rd
column.  A roll of 2D6 (plus 4 for the ammo the sniper used) results in
"st/GR" or stunned, Grazing wound.
Joe loses several actions (the stun effect) and gets a bruise on his
right arm.  A DM of +1 is applied to all Strength tasks Joe performs for
the next day or so

Wounds, depending on thier location, will have different effects on
tasks... your character can take a Major wound to the arm (i.e. broken
bones) and make DRIVE (willpower) roll to continue performing actions
(with some hefty DRMs--no one said it would be easy), but a Major wound
to the torso means you sit down and stay there (well, if you make a
difficult DRIVE check, you can probably crawl a bit...)

Albedo's system is deadly, but not gory.  Medical attention after combat
is lots of First-Aid rolls, doses of painkillers, quick medivacs andlong
stays in hospitals.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:58:06 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

Mike Sellers wrote:

[snip]

>
>ObTrav:  Anyone ever get their players mixed up with separatists like the
>Quebecois, or even the IRA?  There's gotta be a lot of good adventures ther=
e.
>


	Ahem... I should point something out here; not all Qu=E9becois are
separatists, despite what the separatists would have you believe.
Regardless of whether you define Qu=E9becois as citizens of Qu=E9bec, or in =
the
racist definition that the separatists use, only pur laine francophones,
only about 30% of the population of the province, i.e. a minority of
francophone Qu=E9becois are separatists.  The only reason they got an
apparent support of 49% in the last referendum was due to a bungled
campaign by the No side, an incredibly charismatic and popular leader for
the Yes side, and a dishonest and misleading question.

	Basically, 49% of Qu=E9becois voted yes to a proposition that would
have Qu=E9bec becoming "sovereign within the context of a new partnership
with the rest of Canada" (whatever the hell that means).  They voted Yes to
a deal whereby they'd still send MP's to Ottawa, still benefit from
Canada's membership in GATT and NAFTA, still keep their Canadian passports,
and still use the Canadian dollar.  Exit polls revealed that between 20-30%
of the Yes vote was voting for this, which they thought was a form of
renewed federalism.  It's lucky for us that they didn't get a majority,
because as Mr. Parizeau, the then PQ premier, said afterwards that he was
going to unilaterally declare independence regardless of what happened in
any negotiations.  As it happened, all he was able to do was bitch about
"how money and the ethnic vote cost us our country" in his concession
speech.  That one cost him his job, but to this day he has yet to apologize
for it.

	Ask an honest question, such as "Do you want Qu=E9bec to become an
independent country", with an honest statement of the true costs of
separation (assumption of a fair share of the national debt and partition
of the province) and the Yes vote will tank.  So please don't go thinking
that all Qu=E9becois are separatists.  They aren't; francophone Qu=E9becois =
are
generally very open-minded and tolerant.  While the separatists try and
pull an "ein volk ein partei"-style conflation, they're really only a vocal
minority.

	ObTrav:  Like, maybe this could inspire some subtleties for your
adventure idea?  Such as total chaos where the separatist government in
question got apparent support, got a dog's breakfast of a deal instead of
what they promised, and is bulldozing it through despite popular
opposition, ethnic violence, economic collapse, and so forth?

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:50:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: [off topic] Who we are.

This whole thread is off topic, no?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 17:23:30 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@netins.net>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (Long)

First of all, I would like to thank Dr. Clark for his comments on my
design, the Akishu Irikhan. I never mind criticism when it's given in a
professional fashion such as he did.

The fact is, most of his observations are true. So I'm not gonna bother
denying them. Instead, I'll offer my reasons for my choices:

> However, this is a real case of trying to fit a quart in a pint pot.  
I acknowledge this completely - in fact, that was my personal goal in this
competition - to make the smallest ship possible that was capable of
fufilling the mission. Dr. Clark feels that I failed...I think I didn't.
Who knows :)

> No meson or dampers, a single laser, 
These two fall under my "patrol cruiser" clause. Yes - the design called
for a ship capable of serving with fleet elements. However, the design is
primarily a anti-pirate/customs/commerse-raider, and I feel NDs and meson
screens are grossly overkill for that. When a 300-600ton ship is assigned
to a fleet, I do not expect it will be a line ship - instead they will be
used (IMHO) as pickets, scouts, armed couriers, and "big fighters". When
designing the ship, I asked myself two questions - "Can this ship take on
corsairs and win? And is this ship useful to a larger fleet?" The answer to
the first I feel is yes - the armor, long-range laser, high speed, EMM, and
heavy missile load make this a superb (IMHO) pirate killer. And yes, it can
serve with fleet elements - again, as a scout, picket, etc...but, as a ship
of the line (of sorts), I agree with Dr. Clark - my design has
shortcomings.
Note that some of the modules (Point Defences, Nuclear Damper, Addl
laser(s)) would be very useful in fleet roles.

> small sensors, 
I picked the best package available in SSDS...here's an example of QSDS
beating SSDS (the other example being fuel refining plants).

> and little cargo space
This is perhaps the only one I disagree with...12 tons, without using
modules. And note that you do not have to use cargo space for missiles - I
provided extra space for that. I wonder why a patrol cruiser needs more
space.

An observation - I was amazed at the number of designs that didn't have
dedicated troop space. I feel that troops are a basic anti-piracy tool,
even if the design parameters didn't mention them.

It is possible to design a ship that perhaps Dr. Clark would like a bit
better - 300tons, 4G maneuver, 2 laser batteries, NDs, meson screen. The
lasers are slightly less powerful than my single battery, the ship only
pulls 4Gs, the armor drops to 30, and the number of troops falls to 4. I
personally prefer my initial design - but that's a matter of preferences.

Again, thanks to Dr. Clark for his opinions...
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: jwbrewer@ucsd.edu (James W Brewer)
Subject: Who we are:

Str:6, Dex:8, End:7, Int:B, Edu:A, Soc:7, Age:43
Skills: Biology 3, History 3, Chem 1, Computer 1, JOT 1, Wheeled Vech 1,
 Rifle 1, Pistol 1, Animal Handling 1, stealth 1, survival 1, Theology 1 

I served one active enlistment in the USArmy, very luckily missing Vietnam
(half my training battery went), and a fair time in the Reserves.  In
College I studied Biology until kidnapped into History  (my gpa was higher
and all my electives were in History).  I was played around with the SCA,
also. While history is what I really love, Lab tech jobs are much easier to
get, so for the last 17 years I've worked as a tech for the University of
Calif. My best friend is my wife of 4 years (I knew her for 7 years before
that, and kick my self for not realizing what a wonderful woman she is.).
She is a contract college history Instructor (Even with a PHd from the
University of Calif. things are hard.  I started board gameing with Avalon
Hill's Africa Korps in 1969. I've kept up board gameing with ASL my
favorite.  In college I started AD&D (I didn't know better) and CoC. In 1978
I Discovered Classic Traveller, and have been with Traveller in all its
variations ever since. I've played Morrow project since the 1st edition.  In
the last couple of years I have been playing White Wolf's Vampire and Mage
since its easy to get up groups if you are willing to GM.  By the way I'm a
devout Lutheran, which gives you a different view than the average role player.


                     James W. Brewer
                     Univ. of Calif. at San Diego

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:16:31 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

Rob Prior wrote:
> > Does anyone have a better way of dealing out damage than T4, it's almost
> > a bit too deadly for my tastes, or at the least it can pretty easily
> > knock out a PC at the first hit. Plus I really prefer systems with
> > hitlocations, it's more fun to be able to say, 'He pulls his Desert
> > Eagle .50 at Point Blank range and blow your right arm of". >:->
> The best system (for combining 'realism' and speed) that I've seen yet is the
> one in The Babylon Project.
>
> Hit effects are determined by hit location and weapon type, with immediate
> effects being limited to (a) am I still standing, (b) can I still use that
> location, and (c) am I bleeding enough to require immediate first aid?  After
> the combat is over there's some simple procedures that determine the specific
> damage, medical attention required, and recovery times.

	You wouldn't happen to have a similar system we could look at lying around 
somewhere, do you? I've always wanted a damage system where:
	a) targets die instantly less than 9 times out of 10;
	b) arm shots actually HURT;
	c) you stand as much of a chance of getting seriously injured as the Bad Guys;
	d) you're still feeling the effects more than 24 hours later;
	e) marksmanship COUNTS;
	f) cover is a necessity;
	g) more closely models real-life GSW effects.
	Unfortunately, I know very little about designing such a system, as I am only 
on step 8 of the 12-step program for reforming munchkins. (Now, class, I want you to 
write "100MJ fusion pistols are not neccessary to go get milk from the grocery store" 
100 times. Without bending the rules or using any sort of aid. Yes, Johnny, that 
includes your Zeta-grade Wired Reflexes 2000.)

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

"His intelligence is fundamentally derivative..." -Michael Crichton, _Lost World_
"Munchkins of the world, UNITE!" -Center for the Global Advancement of Derivative 
Intelligences

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1997 02:25:20 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Space 1889, Space 1939 anyone?

>Here's a little interesing thing to thow into that setting, how about the 
>same universe, 50 years in the future?

This one was published in an issue of the Transactions of the Royal Martian
Geographical Society.  I can't remember offhand which issue, but it was a
rather neat 'steampunk' varient with several options, depending on how dark
you wanted your game.

To drag this back toTraveller, in the Feb issue of SciAm there's an article
about the little-known inventions of Edison.  Stuff like prefab concrete
housing for the poor ("Can you say 'housing project', boys and girls? I knew
you could.")

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:31:12 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>Either way, I'm *strongly* in favor of vectored movement. It's *not*
>that hard to do, and helps remind folks that this ain't Star Wars or
>Star Trek.

May I add a plea to include 3D vectors, even if in an abstract form. I have
never seen 3D movement handled simply and effectively in a game, except
perhaps in StarForce and there movement was more strategic than tactical.

I realize if this was easy to do every game would have it. Consider it a
challenge; how do we represent 3D vectors on a hex map simply and
effectively? Solving this will give Traveller an advantage over all the
other space games and perhaps form a basis for other games from IG.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:31:17 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Xenoconductivity

>       Yeah, I read an article in Discover a couple years back where a
>scientist had discovered microtubules in the brain, each of which
>contained a single electron. He argued that the tubules propogated the
>wave motion of the electron when it decided to be a wave, and this was
>somehow related to our ability to have concious thought.

Roger Penrose uses this idea to argue against the possibility of 'hard' AI.
One problem is that such microtubules occur in nearly all animal cells, not
just the brain, and may also exist in plant cells and mineral formations.

Nevertheless, I have used some of his arguments to handwave why there are
not AIs in Traveller. The real reason, of course, is that we want players
to do all this dangerous adventuring and not just order robots around.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:31:07 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Bunks vs. staterooms

>Given a choice between more
>firepower and more comfortable sleeping quarters, I think the decision for
>a warship
>would always be more firepower. Even on a larger ship, the larger crew
>would still make this a clear cut choice.

I agree that from a design standpoint, bunks are smaller and take less
power, so based on simple finances one might think bunks are more cost
effective than staterooms. However, I don't agree that skimping on crew
space will provide more firepower. At least, more firepower that will hit
enemy ships.

First of all, to attract and keep a high-quality crew you have got to
provide them comfortable sleeping quarters. In WWII  you could get away
with putting conscripts into floating sardine cans, but contract employees,
like Imperial Navy crew, can simply change jobs if they don't like the
working conditions. I'm no naval admiral, but I believe that crew which has
good living conditions will perform more effectively and with better morale
than crew treated like human cordwood.

Second, starship crews cannot surface or stroll the deck on a break; there
is no outside of a ship in jump space. Any room for study, recreation,
briefing, or training must be inside the ship and bunks provide no space
for this. Some members of the crew, like gunnery, will have no duties
during jump and will be more useful training or performing maintenance.
Having to do this in available space, like engineering or the bridge, will
impede normal ship operations.

Third, starships in the Third Imperium are not like U Boats. Space travel
has been around for millennia and starship design is by now highly
optimized and effective. The rules state command personnel and passengers
must have staterooms, so there must be some advantage in doing this.
Whether for morale, carrying out one's work, or just economics, the same
principles will apply to all crewmembers. Naval architects aren't going to
put staterooms in unless they give some advantage. While a high passenger
or ship captain may have more clout, what's good for the captain is good
for the lowliest gunner.

Therefore, your choice is really between untrained, unmotivated slave labor
with more weaponry, or highly trained and motivated combat professionals
with fewer weapons. Frankly, the untrained crew will have zero firepower if
they mutiny at the first sight of an enemy ship. For me, this also is a
clear cut choice, but other navies may have different philosophies.
Unfortunately, Traveller's space combat system has no rules for crew
quality, so the comparison between the two will for now be only
theoretical.

In my campaign, all military ships have at least a small stateroom for
every two crewmembers, and personal staterooms for every crewmember on
capital ships.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1997 02:29:48 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: 2D <-> 3D mapping

>Actually, mind-bendingly enough, there _are_ different sizes of
>infinities.

Dredging up old memories here...

The number of integers is infinite, refered to as aleph-null (Hebrew letter
aleph, subscript 0).

Between every two integers there are an infinite number of real numbers,
refered to as aleph-prime.

These two inifinities are mathematically different.  I can't remember enough
to go further (and ASCII doesn't have the right symbols anyway), but there
_is_ a mathematical difference between different 'sizes' of infinity!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:05:25 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: conservations

Shadow writes
>Bruce wrote
>> Kinetic energy is a scalar, not a vector. 

>It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
>1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
>state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
>joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.

It's a scalar. Honest. Look it up.

KE=1/2mv^2, so we have:
initial state: KE=1/2(1000kg)*(0m/s)*(0m/s) + 1/2(1000kg)*(0m/s)*(0m/s)
final state: KE=1/2(1000kg)*(1m/s)*(1m/s)+1/2(1000kg)*(-1m/s)*(-1m/s)
               =500 J + 500 J = 1000 J

Where, you might ask, did the energy come from? It came from your muscles,
heaving the block, converting chemical potential energy into kinetic energy.

This is high-school physics.

>But the *total* KE of ship plus star is always *constant*. You only
>have to make the energy expended equal KE gained in the frame of the
>ship!

No. Total kinetic energy of the system is increasing in all frames of reference,
as nuclear binding energy (from fusing hydrogen) is converted into electricity
and then (miraculously) into kinetic energy.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:13:24 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: A Minor Human Race: The Forlorn LONG

	Bruce, that was absolutely brilliant.  Bravo.  It's inspirational
background material, and one of the best posts I've seen on the TML to date.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:00:24 +0000
From: suzd@pop.goodnet.com
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

> Date:          Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:44:12 -0500 (CDT)
> From:          "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> Why on earth would any woman, or man, subject themselves to pregnancy when
> the equipment and facilities to bring a child to term in complete safety
> and psychological balance outside the body exist and are inexpensive?

I could be wrong on this, of course, but it might have something to 
do with the incredible feeling of having the baby move inside of you, 
for the first time, the second, the hundredth. It might be the wonder 
of poking at your stomach and feeling it kick back. It might be the 
incredible joy of seeing that tiny little person for the first time, 
still attached to your life blood and feeling him/her laid on your 
stomach, touching you on the outside for the first time.

There aren't enough words in our language to describe the instinct 
that drives a more or less sane, rational woman to want to have a 
baby, to give up so much and gain so much more.

Is it a given that as technology increases, women will choose to not 
carry them? I can't believe it.  I was adopted. I *know* that there 
is no difference in the mother/daughter bond, but I wouldn't have 
traded my pregnancies and births merely because it was convenient or 
easier.

Suz





Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:19:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: NUELOW@aol.com
Subject: E-mail replies (Off-topic but necessary... sorry)

I recently got a couple of messages from list members that were sent to me
directly. While erasing junk mail, I accidentily erased those messages, too.
(I got trigger happy, and didn't realise my mistake until after I'd clicked
"Okay.")

If you sent a message to me directly, please resend it.

To the rest of you, sorry for polluting the list. I just didn't want anyone
to think I was blowing them off.

Steve Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: conservations

> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:02:14 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> > Kinetic energy is a scalar, not a vector. 
> 
> It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
> 1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
> state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
> joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.

Leonard, I usually admire your science and engineering skills, but I think
it's time for you to alter the dosage or something. :)  KE (like PE, like
energy in general) is by definition a scalar quantity.  Consider that you
say above that you 'heave' the block.  That introduces KE into the system
(tranformed from chemical energy in your body, or whatever).  Your final
state has more KE (in the initial rest frame) than the initial one.
*Momentum* is conserved and is a vector quantiry; kinetic energy is *not*
conserved and is a scalar quantity.  Big difference.

> If I wanted to do the trig, I could send *3* equal masses off at mutual
> 120 angles, and still get a total of zero. But I'd have to use complex
> numbers for the KE of two of them.

This is almost hallucinatorily weird.  I'd love to see a universe that
worked this way...

> >>The ship pushing on the star gives the star an
> >>equal KE and momentum, but in the opposite direction. Total is *zero*.
> >
> > No. In some frames of reference the star slows down, and loses kinetic    
> > energy; in others it speeds up (and gains energy); in all, the rate of
> > gain of energy has to balance with the power being put into the pusher.
> 
> But the *total* KE of ship plus star is always *constant*. You only
> have to make the energy expended equal KE gained in the frame of the
> ship!

Again, you *can* add or subtract KE from a system, by transforming other
forms of energy to or from KE.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:42:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: conservations (fwd)

Hi Leonard,

Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: conservations
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:02:14 PST

> It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
> 1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
> state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
> joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.

Wrong. Total KE is 1000 J. Energy is or it isn't. If the number is positive
then it is KE. If the number is negative it is heat and sub-elements of
the original members. The only time these objects would sum as you claim was
immediately at the point of contact of an inelastic collision.

The momentum (ie p=mv) is a vector and sums this way. Energy (ie e=mv^2)
is a scalar (those pesky squares just mess everything up).

Hope this helps.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 21:54:03 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 04/23/97 at 01:01 AM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:

> Ho ho ho... Yes, the greater intelligence of american law enforcement and
>  justice has been a shining example to all of us here in Canada. I mean, 
> if the criminal case is lost, just try the civil. Things get waaaay more 
> serious when money is involved. ;P

Ob, Traveller..."economics is everything!" ;->


Eris

ps. Better watch out, some American lawyer will sue Canada for all the
damage caused by the cold weather you send down our way. <wink>  -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 22:20:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Viva La Revolution!

On 04/23/97 at 03:08 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> GMs everywhere free yourselves! Throw out the Tasksystems, rewrite the
> character generation, redefine the TLs and burn your bras! Keep the
> history though but change anything that doesn't fit.

While you're at it, toss out as much...or as little...of the history as you
want too!   Canon is the opiate of the traveller, and you have nothing to
lose by your brains!  Uh, excuse me, that's nothing to lose but your
chains. ;-D

Eris,
    the heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1249
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1250



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
Re: Variety
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
RE: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Ancient Rosettes
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!
re: Bunks vs. staterooms
Re: IG catalog
Re: Marc's new task system
Re: Variety
Re: Milieu:1889
THUDDD page update
Re: THUDDD FAQ
Re: Experience Systems Wanted
Re: IR Masking
Re: The Forlorn, and the Equine
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Starship Combat
The 3-Task System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 22:16:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

On 04/23/97 at 11:53 PM,  Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> said:

>  Also without Grav Focusing the lasers will be more
> powerful inside their effective range, because they'll be more efficient.

Why?

What's the *reason* non-grav focused lasers are more efficient?  How does
grav focusing make a laser less efficient?  Is it just because FFS setup
the tables that way?  Or is it just because with non-focused lasers all the
energy goes into lasing, rather than generating the grav focusing effect? 
IAC, the effect is whatever we want it to be, because grav focusing is a
*total* speculation.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 22:07:14 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Variety

On 04/23/97 at 02:17 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> If you look at the way the low level stuff in DNA works and the amount of
> noninformational garbage there is in the DNA...

I'm not going to extend the philosphical end of this thread, but I wanted
to make a comment about this sentence fragment.

It's interesting that most DNA is packed with extranious..as far as we
know..noninformational data.  A story in Analog a couple of years ago
speculated that our DNA is encoded with data placed there, in some way, by
alien progenitors. 

Re Traveller...maybe Grandpop, planted a few coded messages here and there
for *who* knows what purpose.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 23:17:03 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On 04/23/97 at 01:39 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> The Navy would be interested in antipodal "skip-planes" as *cargo*
> carriers. They tend to have more of a need to get urgent personnel or
> cargo to oddball spots fast. The Army already has tons of people and
> supplies at bases or tries to ship half the base. But if a ship needs a
> lefthanded frammis, it tends to need it *now*.

> And I bet that the submarine service will have its fingers in the pie as
> they are likely to be the best experts on closed cycle life support when
> real space *ships* get going.

Yeah, so let's move Admiral Rickover from subs to spaceplanes and power it
with  NERVA.  NERVA finally flies!  Of course, that'd make Jimmy Carter a
spaceman rather than a submariner...peanuts in Space!!! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:13:10 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

>From: 	Roderick Darroch Elliott
>Mike Sellers wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>>ObTrav:  Anyone ever get their players mixed up with separatists like the
>>Quebecois, or even the IRA?  There's gotta be a lot of good adventures 
there.
>>
>
>
>	Ahem... I should point something out here; not all Quebecois are
>separatists, despite what the separatists would have you believe.
>Regardless of whether you define Quebecois as citizens of Quebec, or in 
the
>racist definition that the separatists use, only pur laine francophones,
>only about 30% of the population of the province, i.e. a minority of
>francophone Quebecois are separatists.  The only reason they got an
>apparent support of 49% in the last referendum was due to a bungled
>campaign by the No side, an incredibly charismatic and popular leader for
>the Yes side, and a dishonest and misleading question.

	Now Rod, don't bore the poor Americans and Europeans with our little 
home-grown political strife. Goodness knows enough Canadians go to sleep 
after listening about "the Quebec question".

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:29:13 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Ancient Rosettes

	Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I know that 
there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four or 
five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that is 
somewhere in the Vargr Extents.

	But I can't find it. Can anyone give me any more information about this 
wonder of the Ancient world?

	I'm creating (by hand - I'm a glutton for punishment) a sector near Vargr 
space, and I want something spectacular to put in subsectors C and D.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 23:45:26 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

On 1997-04-23 04:13 thus spake Leonard Erickson:

>If someone will give me the integral of v=sqrt(2Pt/M), then we'll have
>a formula for the distance traveled as a function of time. If it's low
>enough for a typical 100 diameter trip, then I think this is a great
>solution. :-)

Ahhh, finally a chance to put that rusty old calculus to use. ;-)

your formula is equivalent to: v(t) = (2Pt/M)^(1/2)

I shall use the pipe | as the symbol of integration, and since Power and 
Mass do not change with respect to time, I shall replace the constant 
portion sqrt(2P/M) with c. So the formula to integrate becomes

|v(t) = |(c t^(1/2) dt) = c | (t^(1/2) dt)

Knowing that |(x^a dx) = [x^(a+1)]/(a+1), we get:

|v(t) = c * [t^(3/2)/(3/2)] = 2c/3 * t^(3/2) = 2/3 * sqrt(2Pt^3/M)

So that's your distance formula as a function of time:
d(t) = 2/3 * sqrt(2Pt^3/M)

*Real* mathematicians will, I'm sure, tell me if I've made an error. ;-)

So, to use your example:

d^2 = 4/9 * 2 Pt^3/M
9/8 * d^2 * M/P = t^3

100 dia= 1,120,000 km
1.12e9 = distance
1e5=100,000=m (100 tons)
1e8=100,000,000=p (100 MW)

9/8 * (1.12e9)^2 * 1e5/1e8 = t^3
9/8e3 * 1.2544e18 = t^3
t^3 = 1.41e15 
t =~ 11200 s ~ 31 hr

Does that sound about right, Leonard? I'm not so sure that it meets the 
requirement of being a short enough time... maybe we need to pump more 
power into those Thrusters?

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:45:11 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

Leonard Erickson wrote:
[snip]
>Well, a lot depends on how you are scanning. For example, it ought to
>be possible to modify a det-laser warhead to generate a *microwave*
>pulse. Do that and you just wait for the echoes. Anything that takes
>more than an hour is likely too far away to help you anyway (remember,
>Pluto is 5 light hours away from the Sun).
>
>The "det radar" bit is borrowed from a proposal that Arthur C. Clarke
>borrowed for a couple of his stories. They used a gigaton pulse to get
>data on everything within a light day or so of the system. I figure a
>smaller version should be good for 30 light minutes or so, and make one
>hell of a "distress flare".

I remember reading a Russian sci-fi short story about some explorers who
enter a system, set off a big flare along the lines you describe, and set
about exploring... on one of the planets, they find the remains of a
(low-tech) alien civilization, still in the process of dying out.  They
can't figure it out -- the aliens seem to have no visual organs, but also
don't seem to have compensatory senses.  There are a few survivors
floundering about the abandoned towns, rapidly dying due to accidents and
general helplessness -- they can't seem to find their way around.
Eventually one of the explorers realizes that they're not naturally blind
- -- that their vision was in the same general wavelength as the survey
flare, which burned out their "eyes" and basically killed off the entire
species... <G>

Anyone remember what this story is or who wrote it?  It was translated into
English and appeared in one of those black-covered paperback "Soviet SF"
series that Theodore Sturgeon did the intros for, is all I can remember.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:45:28 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): SEX! With ALIENS! AND OTHER LURID TITLES!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Selecting sex of human offspring turns out to be doable at an
>*incredibly* low tech level. All you need to do is change the pH of the
>vagina and cervix. Not even by that much. A change one way stops the
>male sperm and slows down the female ones. A change the other way
>doesn't stop the female ones but greatly slows them down. (I may have
>this backwards, but you get the essential idea).

I gather that timing the intercourse (or turkey baster) can favor male vs.
female offpsring:  closer to ovulation, the better the chances of a male
child; farther away from ovulation, the slower but longer-lived 'female
sperm' are more likely to make it to the egg.  Tipping the pH balance can
also tilt the odds, with acidic environments tending to kill the more
fragile Y-chromosome-bearing sperm first.  Hence the use of vinegar douches
by lesbian parents who'd rather not have a boy... or so I'm told.  Never
tried it myself.  If this isn't a bunch of malarkey, then yeah, it doesn't
get much lower-tech than this, and it could work to allow human Aslan clans
to maintain the 'correct' sex ratio in their ranks.

>This is actually causing problems in the real world right now as it
>allows people in places like China and India to have sons instead of
>daughters. And that's gonna be a *real* problem when those sons get
>older. Yes, infanticide in the poorer classes is used too, but the
>somewhat educated classes know about the trick and use it!

Yeah, I've read that there's already a measurable imbalance in the sex
ratio of the generation born post-Cultural Revolution -- disproportionately
few women.  It *will* be interesting to see what starts happening in
another ten years or so.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:17:10 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Bunks vs. staterooms

To some extent, this is a tradeoff that Traveller makes artificially 
pro-bunk, because designs are generally limited by volume rather than mass.
a 2-person bunk pair doesn't mass that much less than a stateroom - but it
takes up significantly less volume (if I recall correctly.) If ship performance
was based on mass, then the tradeoff would be easier, and staterooms more
attractive, at least for relatively unarmoured ships...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:02:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG catalog

> T4 Deluxe has the changed task system - changed as given in the T4 Game 
> Screen.

Grrr.  Grumble, grumble, grumble.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:02:23 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Marc's new task system

> 	Could someone either send me a copy of MMs new T4 task system, or give me a URL where I can find it?
> 
> 	I've been hunting through the millions of Traveller pages out there, but I can't seem to find it.
>

K.C.,

Marc's going to--

Target Number = Attribute + Skill   
(just like in the current edition of T4).



Difficulties are:

Easy               Auto/1D
Average          2D
Difficult            2.5D
Formidable      3D
Staggering      4D
Impossible       5D



Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:52:27 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Variety

>It's interesting that most DNA is packed with extranious..as far as we
>know..noninformational data.  A story in Analog a couple of years ago
>speculated that our DNA is encoded with data placed there, in some way, by
>alien progenitors.
>
>Re Traveller...maybe Grandpop, planted a few coded messages here and there
>for *who* knows what purpose.  ;->
>
>Eris

Or it could be that genetical memory data some speculate in a la Bene
Gesserit of Herbert. The grandfather theory though seems more interesting
except that he seems to have put the data into all earthly organisms that
we have checked so far. Maybe all data the senses of the organism pick up
is checked with this data and if a match the organism will self destruct or
something. Sort of a programmers backdoor to kill of any dangerous
organisms when they reach a certain TL. The Darrians code didn't work so he
had to flare them (the star trigger was only a coverup from him).
Or the data could be information we are carrying to somewhere for unknown
purposes. This explains the fact that we all want to go to space despite
Earth being such a friendly place (this makes all space hating mudballers
mutants).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:53:23 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

At 19:45 22/04/97 -0700, Mike Sellers  wrote:
>Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next 1-10
>years that will have as great an impact on our society as the transistor?
>If so, what is it?  
>
>The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
>storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
>like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.

>Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

Hmmm... Protein you say?
Wonder what it tastes like?
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:05:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD page update

I lied yesterday. :)  The Patrol Cruiser entries (for THUDDD v3) are
available on the web via:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Let me know if I've mucked anything up...sort of tossed the thing together
this evening.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:28:52 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD FAQ

>BTW which design systems are considered legal? 
>I presume that all entries have to conform to Melieu 0 standards.

Can we also get a posting up of what changes need to be made to the
QSDS/SSDS systems? I've got a couple here (QSDS HEPlaR fuel needs
to be multiplied by20, and a list of suggested crew salaries to use) but I
know that a couple of other things (such as the recent question over
QSDS lasers vs SSDS lasers) have slipped past without my grabbing
the pertinent info. Has anyone been collecting this in order to a) make
sure all the ship designs are using the same rules/assumptions and b) to
make a complete list of corrections for the two design systems?

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:28:54 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Experience Systems Wanted

>5- My system : I give points immediately when one player have done somthing
>interessant for the general story or particulary coherent with his
>character. The point allowance in totally subjective. I only check that I
>give points to quite everyone. 

[results]

>5 is the system I use recently. The players like this system. BTW you can
>control all the points you give. If a player is too weakly skilled, award
>him some points for minor but interesting actions. For Example, I would
>award point in a gun fight not to the character who was the most effective
>but to the character who was intelligent and bring good fun to the game
>scene. The main advantage is that the player are immedialy rewarded of
>their efforts of improving their game quality. Their is no rules for this
>system, just the GM common sense. Best I think

I use a system that combines the Chaosium points for success and the Vampirish/
yourish points for roleplay. The problems with sticking entirely w/ #4 or #5
is that
a) not all my players are equal in the role-playing department, so some would 
tend to get slighted and b) all of my group grew up playing D&D, CoC, etc, and
have that indoctrination that says getting points for using your skills well
feels
more "natural," and would feel slighted if they didn't get points for being the
most effective in a gun fight.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:28:57 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: IR Masking

>> What hole? We're discussing an opening into another dimension within
>> the ship that doesn't interact with the jump space dimension at all. Two
>
>Sounds like a hole to me.  Perhaps you never read the *original* post
>that formed this exchange of ideas?

Since I wrote one of the original 2-3 posts on this idea, I think I might
have a 
few ideas about it. <g> I think of the opening into this heat dimension as
analogous to _Flatland_; imagine the ship as a 2D object for a sec, kinda 
like a deckplan. The jumpspace "bubble" exists around the ship in the 2D 
plane (in the same way the bubble wraps around the actual 3D ship). The
"hole" into the "heat dimension" opens out of the page into 3D space, the
same as the "real" hole opens "out" of the ship into 4D (or 5, 6, 42, whatever)
space, thus not interacting at all with the jump bubble (which is interacting
with the j-dimension, not the h-dimension.

>"The 'heat sink' dimension requires heat input to act as a barrier
>between it and us?"  What is this supposed to mean?  What happens when
>too little heat is dumped?  A jump field that collapses while in jump
>is catastrophic (read my description above).  A "heat field" collapse
>would be equally catastrophic due to the different physics involved
>(extrapolated from the only Traveller data I have regarding isolating
>different dimensions).

I have no problem with the "heat field" critically collapsing if insufficient
heat is pumped into it; catastrophe if your jdrive fails, catastrophe if your
pplant fails. Sounds fair. The "heat input as a barrier" was a response to get
around the problem of the "h-dimension" having to be far colder than our
space to have effective heat transfer.

>Nowhere in Traveller canon does it state that jump field energy is
>being "dumped" *into jumpspace* to prevent its incursion.  Since the
>poster is a Traveller player and did not submit any new facts about
>his theory (outside of the Traveller universe), I presumed we were
>both using Traveller canon.

Which is why the barrier idea came to me. Is there any reason that heat energy
couldn't be used as a barrier against the h-dimension the way that a jump
bubble uses <mumble, mumble, handwave> energy against the j-dimension?

>> This makes no sense at all. He stated that a dimension has been found that
>> allows you to dump heat. If you add in a dimension that we can suck 
>> heat out of, you are no longer within the terms of his game world, and 
>> are not exhibiting the "internal coherence" that has been written in stone
>> on this list as of late.
>
>Yet he/you is allowed to change or bring forth "facts" to support his
>claim (like your reply above)?  How can I play his game if he's the
>only one that knows the rules?

OK, taking a page from the "black swans in England" argument, I
am postulating a game universe in which a dimension has been found that
allows heat to be "dumped" (for lack of a better term). This dimension is
a one-way transfer, and no dimension has (yet) been found that allows 
heat to be drawn out of it. There, does that cover the bases? Or do I need
to handwave a few trees whose sap can be used for flame retardant
undies? :)

>The original post for a dimensional heat sink was triggered by
>someone's need for true IR masking in outer space.  Ignoring a second
>dimension or method that could be used to draw heat out of would mean
>that the original poster just invented the "perpetual motion machine"
>and broke several conservational laws.  So much for "internal
>coherence".

Yes, that point has been raised, and I'm not arguing with it. But the 
questions were also asked (and not answered): 1) how much energy could
one derive from such a device and would it be more economical (in
terms of volume/mass/cost) than existing canon power sources, 2) why 
is perptual energy in this sense worse than super-efficient solar cells, 
and 3) in the example of dropping (a very large one) into a star as a 
weapon, why is that worse than the Star Trigger?

>> Yes it has, he just stated that such a dimension exists/has been found. 
>> Please keep the real world and the game world example seperate please.
>
>Ow.  I detect angst.  Sure would be nice if I had something else to go
>on, though.

Methinks you need to take your angst detector in for servicing. :)

>The original poster asked anyone if they could come up with a theory
>(that wasn't totally far-fetched and based on the Traveller universe)
>to disprove his proposed existence of a dimension suitable for use as
>a heat sink for purposes of IR masking (the word "hole" was mentioned
>at one point).  That's it.  If I am limited to minuscule information
>such as this, I stand about the same chance disproving his proposal as
>I would have disproving that the world was "square".
>
>I therefore assumed that this wasn't some sort of formal challenge and
>came up with the casual reply you see at the top.  Since my reply is
>nearly a week old by now and I haven't seen a reply from the original
>poster, I suspect that my submission was enough to satisfy him.

And this isn't a formal challenge either. I'm not looking for acrimony, flames,
sarcasm, or anything other than a conversation/discussion about the 
merits of the idea; I've been reading the bios that have been posted, and
for a bunch of 30 and 40 something professionals, we all (self included) 
certainly seem to get our knickers in a twist about as often as a bunch of
12 year olds on AOL. :) I know the post was old, but I've been enjoying 
a week off w/ my significant ones (away from email distractions, *ahhh*)
and as one of the people posting/following the thread, I'd like a few
additional questions answered, if it pleases the court :)

After all, it is a little more on topic than the "History of Sexual
Practices" or
"This is My Life" threads as of late, as interesting as they may be. :)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 04:05:58 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: The Forlorn, and the Equine

Thanks, folks! These are two of the most useful things that I have
gotten off this list, and very well done. As much as I enjoy the 
mind games of fighters vs heat sinks vs 0.1c rocks, I don't tend
to have that kind of info pop up in my games as often as the
social background stuff.

Won't stop me from doing it, of course ("Now, I postulate that
we have found a dimension where fighters actually work....") <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 04:05:56 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

>Damara autopsied a guy hit with a .25 that went through a window,
>bounced off the table (grazing) and hit his chest.  Took off an
>aorta (bad luck, eh?).

Last month, we (I'm an RN on a Neurosciences/Neurosurgical unit) 
had a cabbie who was shot in the head w/ a .32 that basically lodged 
in her skull. A quick and (relatively) easy operation, a couple of days
on the floor for obs, and she's probably out driving her cab again.

I guess that's why we have the spectacular successes and failures :)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:34:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>May I add a plea to include 3D vectors, even if in an abstract form. I have
>never seen 3D movement handled simply and effectively in a game, except
>perhaps in StarForce and there movement was more strategic than tactical.
>
>I realize if this was easy to do every game would have it. Consider it a
>challenge; how do we represent 3D vectors on a hex map simply and
>effectively? Solving this will give Traveller an advantage over all the
>other space games and perhaps form a basis for other games from IG.

First get rid of the stupid hexes. Use square grids and have one top view
and one side view and use past-present-future ala BR and Mayday. The two
view grid was used by SPI Battlefield Mars (or am I erring on the title?).
The problem is 3D gravity but with the boring scales in BR gravity is not a
factor.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:46:54 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: The 3-Task System

        I know the Big Task Thread is finished, but, just in case anybody is
interested, I am toying with an MT-like task system. The reason are my
personal tastes: I want to roll only 2D6, to use T4 character generation and
T4/Emperor's Arsenal weapon stats. No real rationale for preferring this to
other system, The probabilities are somewhat related to those of MT with the
corrections I want to account for the extra skills, and I mixed it all with
an immediate aplication for the combat/damage system which uses the T4 rules
to some extent, partiallyt incorporating the Max.3D damage in a way I think
makes more sense. So,

The 3-Task System: An alternative Task and Combat System for T4
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

One and only requisiste: Remember the multiples of three: 3,6,9,12,15,18,21

Tasks:
=====

	2D6+Skill+(Attribute/3) <= (Difficulty)

	(round fractions down)

	Maximum allowed DM: +10

	Difficulty	Code
	----------------------
	Easy		6+
	Average	        9+
	Difficult	12+
	Formidable	15+
	Staggering	18+
	Impossible	21+
	----------------------

	Note: Average characters got a DM of +2 from a level-7 attribute, which
explains Average being 9+.
	
	This system is very similar to MT, but designed for T4 characters who have
a significatively larger number of skills. For most characters, Easy,
Average and Difficult are roughly equivalent to Easy, Routine and Difficult
in MT. Formidable somewhere between Difficult and Formidable in MT,
Staggering somewhere betwwn Formidable and Impossible in MT.

	Spectacular Success: When the actual roll makes the next difficulty level
(i.e. exceeds the required level by 3+). Example: Rolling 12+ in an Average
task.

	Spectacular Failure: When the actual roll does NOT make the previous
difficulty level (i.e. fails by 4+). Can give rise to a 2D mishap. Example:
Not rolling 6+ in an Average task.

	Marginal success: If the roll equals the required level exactly. Example:
Rolling exactly 7 in an Average task.

	Fumble: An exact roll of 2 is always a failure, regardless of DMs. Can give
rise to a 3D mishap.

Mishap table (2D or 3D)
- ----------------------------------
2	reroll
3+	No damage
6+	Superficial
9+	Minor
12+	Major
15+	Really serious
18+	Destroyed
- ----------------------------------


Combat System:
=============

	Use the T4 difficulty levels and weapon DMs for the to hit tasks.
	For assessing damage, refer to the result of the task

	Fumble: Implement a 2D mishap.
	Spectacular Failure: Failed
	Failure: Failed
	Marginal Success: Only 1D damage from the attack is taken.
	Success: Normal T4 rules. Maximum 3D damage.
	Spectacular Success: No maximum damage, all the damage of the weapon is taken.

Variation: Record the Hit numbers from MT and substitute the dice of damage
for hits. For the "1" damage points generated by the T4 system, record each
three of them as a whole hit.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1250
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1251



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)
Re: IG catalog
Re: Variety
Re: IR Masking
Re: Variety
Re: Who We Are
Re: [off topic] Who we are.
Re: The clever GM
Re: Asteroid belt question
Re: Marc's new task system
Re: The 3-Task System
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:58:23 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)

> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:16:31 -0500
> From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
> Subject: Re: Gun Damage

[snip of Ryan's request for a better Gun Dammage system]

>         Unfortunately, I know very little about designing such a system, as I am only
> on step 8 of the 12-step program for reforming munchkins. (Now, class, I want you to
> write "100MJ fusion pistols are not neccessary to go get milk from the grocery store"

WARNING Severe Munchkinism Follows Read At Your Own Risk !

The true Traveller munchkin (in Milleau 1100) will design a hand held
Meson weapon so as not to insure that their oponents do not try & take
advantage of that pesky thing called armor.  This may involve some
creative interpretation of the chapter on Meson Guns. I should point out
in my own defence that _NO_ minimum values are given in the meson gun
design table so it may be a legitimate design. (FFS pg 116-120)

The following post involves a fair ammount of quoting of the FF&S rules
which are copyright Imperium Games & Marc Miller. 

Using Fire Fusion & Steel it is very easy to design a hand held Meson
gun FGMP style weapon for Battledress troups at TL 15.  The overall
dammage will be low but since it ignores armor it can be deadly.  It is 
also possible to generate a similar (but less effective) weapon at TL's
as low as 11.  Such a weapon will have a low rate of fire however. 

If a gravtank bothers you you can just vaporize the driver or the
controls & the tank will probably crash.   For _true_ munchkinism you
need a psionic firer because if the firer is psionic you can pass off a
target location aquired with telepathy or clairvoyance & may be able to
hit the brain directly.

A fairly deadly weapon can be designed with approximately the following
parameters: (Anglicizations have bben provided for the metric impaired)

TL 15 MGMP (Meson Gun Man Portable)

Step 1:  Involves chosing a Spinal, parallel, or Bay mount.  We will
ignore this step since our gun will be handheld.  We will select a
tunnel length at this ponit however.  We will pick 0.3 m (11.8 inches) 

Step 2:  Discharge Energy (DE)  0.04 megajoule

Step 3: Meson Tunnel Charecteristics

TL 14 Tunnel Charecteristics 
Length Multiplier 	1.2
Volume Multiplier	0.01
Mass Multiplier		0.6

3a: Effective Tunnel Length (0.3 m * 1.2) = 0.36 m

3b: Tunnel Volume (cubic meters)= actual length (m) * discharge energy
(megajoules) * volume multiplier
0.3 * 0.04 * 0.01 = 0.00012 cubic meter (120 cubic centimeters)

3c: Tunnel Cross-Sectional Area
Cross-sectional area in square meteres is equal to the tunnel volume
divided by the actual tunnel length.
0.00048/0.3 = 0.0004 square meter (4 square centimeters) This  means our
meson gun has a gun is approximate diamter of 1.128 (about .44 caliber)
  
3d: Tunnel Mass
Tunnel Mass (tonnes) = tunnel volume (cubic meters) * mass multiplier
0.00012 * 0.6 = 0.00007 tonnes (0.07 kg) (70 grams) (less than 2.5 oz)

3e: Tunnel Price (MCr)
tunnel volume (cubic meters) * 0.1 at all Tl's
0.00012 * 0.1 = 0.000012 MegaCredits (12 credits)

4: Performance
Effective range in km = effective tunnel length x 1000
0.36 * 1000 = 360 km  (223 miles)

5: Define Short Range
 This is where you select a beam pointer for your meson gun. The rules
state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to design
an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need to
_ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
the gun impractical. (Arguably no small arm should require a beam
pointer since it will be manually fired).  

We will select the lightest possible beam pointer the 0.3km beam
pointer.
  At TL 15 this beam pointer will have the following stats
Volume 0.01 cubic meter (about 0.35 cubic foot) 
Mass 0.01 ton (10 kg)
Price (MCr) = volume * 0.1
0.01 * 0.1 = 0.001 MCr  (1000 credits)

If the weapon will be used by battle dress troups you may wish to use a
3 km beam pointer which will have twice the mass, volume, & cost.  If
this is a very high tech experimental secret weapon you may wish to use
a TL 17 beam pointer instead which will give  a 3km short range for the
same mass, volume and cost as our 0.3 km TL 15 beam pointer.

6: Combat Ratings

6a: Combat Range Bands

Short Range:	0.3 km / 300 meters
Medium Range:	0.6 km / 600 meters
Long Range:	1.2 km / 1200 meters
Extreme Range:  2.4 km / 2400 meters

(The maximum range at which a Meson gun will do dammage = 8,500 km *
effective tunnel length or 3,060 km for this design - since it will be
incapable of hitting anything at ranges greater than 2.4 km we will
ignore this range)

6b: Dammage Value
 
DV = 5 * I^0.5 		I is the weapons Intensity

I = DE / (R/EL)^2 	R is range in 1000's of km
			round (R/EL)^2 to the nearest 0.5 with a 			minimum of 1

0.1 / (0.0003/0.36)^2 =
0.1 / (0.000000694 which rounds up to 1)=
0.1 / 1 = 0.1 = I

DV = 5 * (0.04)^0.5
= 1

Our Meson gun does 1d6 of dammage _Ignoring Armor_

7: Power Requirements

7a: Input Energy	Meson guns have a 20% energy efficiency
InputEnergy (IE) = Discharge Energy / 0.2
0.04 / 0.2 = 0.32

7b: Homopolar Generator (I'm really tempted to relate this back to the
Gays in The Third Imperium Thread but it's probably not a good idea :)
)		 
A meson gun requires a homopolar generator (HPG) to store the energy
required for each shot until that energy is ready to be deployed as a
single pulse.  Calculate this figure by muliplying the IE by the value
on the HPG table 
Volume = 0.32 * 0.035 = 0.0112 cubic meter (11.2 cubic liters)
mass = vol * 2 (tons)
0.112 * 2 = 0.0224 tons (22.4 kg)
Price (MCr) = vol * 0.1 * 1.1 (modified for Explosive Power Generation)
0.112 * 0.01 * 1.1 = 0.001232 MCr (1,232 Cr)

7c: Rate of Fire	We will select the highest possible rate of fire which
is 100 shots per 30 minute space combat turn.  This translates to a
ground combat ROF of 1/4 (1 shot every 4 combat turns)

7d: Power Input
ROF * IE = Megajoules consumed per 5 second turn.  Divide this number by
5 to find the MW of power that must be allocated to operate the weapon.
0.25 * 0.32 / 5 = 0.016 MW of power required.

We will generate the required power with Explosive Power Generators 

TL 14 Pulse Fusion Cartridge (PFC) 0.016 MJ

Vol = output * 0.0002
0.0002 * 0.016 = 0.0000032 cubic meters (3.2 cubic centimeters)
Cost (MCr) = output * 0.000008
0.016 * 0.000008 = 0.000000128 MCr (0.128 credits)
Mass Vol * 4
0.0000032 * 4 = 0.0000128 tons (0.0128 kg)(12.8 grams)
Cartridge Dimensions:
Radius 5.54mm
Diameter 11.08mm
Length 33.24mm

8 Gun Crew:	0.0000012 crew (rounds up to 1) required
We are going to skip the gunners (normal) workstation required by the
rules at this point.  Instead we are going to finish the design of this
meson gun using the rules for designing High Energy Weapons.

This is the _first & only_ way this design breaks the rules.

9 Meson Gun Carriage, Mount, Etc:

We will not give this gun a carriage.  The rules for High Energy Weapons
state that man portable weapons do not require a cradle.  The mass &
price of a stock are subsumed in the basic cost of a firing unit. 

Recoil System Weight
0.04* 2 = 0.08 kg

Feed System 
1  100 round box magazine w/ auto loader
 Empty Mass 0.799 kg
Cost 1 Cr
Full Mass 2.079 kg

Price (Credits)

Firing Unit		2000
Support Hardware 	2000
Inertial Compensator	1000
 (The actual recoil of this weapon (1) does not require it to have an
inertial compensator. I am giving it one anyway to represent my
perception of the stability a meson gun firing solution requires)
Meson Tunnel		12
Beam Pointer		1000
HPG			1232
100 Cartridges		13 	(0.128 * 100 = 12.8 Cr)
Magazine		1
Gun Shield		1

Total  Loaded Cost Cr 7,259

Total  Loaded Mass 
34.549 kg (76 lbs)

This design becomes much lighter at TL 16 & higher.  I suspect it might
be designable as a handgun by TL 20 or so.

In the campaign I played in where this weapon was introduced it was
described as TL 16 and given a cost (as an experimental secret weapon)
of about MCr 50 each.  It would probably be less imbalancing to a
campaign at this cost. 

I realize that this wepon is somewhat heavy for a man portable weapon,
but it would make a good squad level suport weapon.

Comment are welcommed.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:59:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG catalog

 
- -> > T4 Deluxe has the changed task system - changed as given in the T4 Game 
- -> > Screen.
- -> 
- -> Grrr.  Grumble, grumble, grumble.
Don't grumble, publish. Even though your System won't be the official 
T4 Task system, it's still a viable alternative. So offer it to IG as 
material for JTAS, or publish it in a fanzine. 
Choice and availability is the name ofg the game!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:24:45 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Variety

- -> Unfortunately, you guys already started it, got off your personal volleys,
- -> and are calling it quits.  I'm _not_ going to perpetuate this thread (this
- -> is an information-free posting :) ), but you're right, it shouldn't have
- -> been started here in the first place.  All you'll get is heat and no light.
Sorry for adding to it before! I wasn't thinking netiquette when i 
said my piece. 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:29:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: IR Masking

Friends, I've had a string of events that has kept me from reading my mail
for most of a week; at the moment I'm about 20 TML-digests behind. Since I
won't have time to go through all of them today either, I decided to just
check the most recent one. Paul Owensby seems to have taken up my end of
the IR Masking argument (Thanks, Paul ;-). I may respond myself when I
get around to it, but from what I see here Paul seems to have said pretty
much what I would have. Sorry to have dropped out of the discussion, but
circumstances beyond my control is involved.

>>Yet he/you is allowed to change or bring forth "facts" to support his
>>claim (like your reply above)?  How can I play his game if he's the
>>only one that knows the rules?

The rules are that only the minimum change needed to explain away an 
inconsistency in the Traveller rules&background should be introduced.
Thus if a "heat sink" dimension with inescapable logic _dictated_ that
a corresponding "heat supply" dimension would exist, then my suggestion
would be unworkable (because such a dimension would mess up the
background much worse than the small hole it plugged). But I don't see
why such a dimension is inevitable. Plausible, yes, but no more than
that.

[In a similar vein, this "heat sink" is only necessary in space (since
its only purpose is to provide space vehicles with an otherwise non-
existent heat sink. The implication of the "minimum change" rule is that
this heat sink dimension would not be accessible on planets (Something to
do with the curvature of space, no doubt ;-).]

(And btw. I'd like the answers to Paul's three questions too, please).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:39:21 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Variety

- -> > If you look at the way the low level stuff in DNA works and the amount of
- -> > noninformational garbage there is in the DNA...
- -> 
- -> I'm not going to extend the philosphical end of this thread, but I wanted
- -> to make a comment about this sentence fragment.
- -> 
- -> It's interesting that most DNA is packed with extranious..as far as we
- -> know..noninformational data.  A story in Analog a couple of years ago
- -> speculated that our DNA is encoded with data placed there, in some way, by
- -> alien progenitors. 
- -> 
- -> Re Traveller...maybe Grandpop, planted a few coded messages here and there
- -> for *who* knows what purpose.  ;->
Who said Erich von Daenicken was wrong? Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:44:00 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Who We Are

- -> novels. Watching foreign films with subtitles (I hate dubbing). Thwapping the
They do that in the States, too? Figures! Germany does it, too, for 
wich i detest most German TV-channels. Give me BBC, or Dutch TV and 
I'd happily renounce watching German TV forever. 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:47:42 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Who we are.

- -> This whole thread is off topic, no?
Abso-Bloody-Lutely!
But it's still interesting to find out what people you are dealing 
with on a day to day basis, the people you slowly get to know are 
really like! It also is interesting to find out: What kind of person 
plays Play..er, Traveller!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:15 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

Leonard Erickson writes:
>I suspect that when dealing with cultures as diverse as those found in
>the Imperium, they will have rules about not putting folks from *this*
>culture in with folks from *that* culture.
>
>[Some reasons why]

I can see how a military would accept such rules based on its own
prejudices, but the resulting logistical problems are so big (especially
if it isn't just one or two simple prejudices like sex and skin color)
that I can't see the Imperial militaries putting up with a multitude of
different prejudices like that. They'd want to be able to shift people
around to suit their own needs without bothering about compatibility.
I suspect that they'd have a short and painful way with anybody who
tried to practice (unaproved) prejudices. And anyone that came from a
culture so inflexible that they couldn't learn wouldn't be hired in
the first place.

In fact, the universal gender tolerance in Imperial society could well
be a product of the "culture" of the Imperial militaries.

>Heck, the various minor human races likely have developed *real*
>differences in things like tolerance for heat/cold/humidity, and
>sensitivity to or need for certain types of food or chemicals. 

Sure, there are plenty of genuine logistical problems. That's why I
don't think the Imperial militaries would put up with a lot of
artificial ones (And they'd propably solve the genuine ones by just not
hiring people who are too fra from the Imperial norm).
 
>If folks from XYZ are generally allergic to cheese, then it's a lot
>better to group them in the same unit (lactose intolerance is just
>*one* example of the sort of thing that can occur over a lot less than
>300,000 years!). 

It would be even better not to hire them in the first place. That way
you don't have to procure special rations for part of you troops.
 
>And you definitely *don't* want to mix troops from a hot, dry "desert"
>world with ones from a cool, wet world. They won't be able to sleep in
>each others barracks due to temp and humidity problems. They may be
>acutely uncomfortable just passing thru each other's bunkrooms in a
>troop ship!

Again, I think that the Imperium would let the recruit adjust to a
standard temperature during the first year. If her can't cut it, they
cut him.
 
Of course, there are some logistical problems you have to accept and
cater to. But you can bet that the militaries try to keep them down
to a minimum!




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:53:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid belt question

In mail you write:

> Is it possible to have a much higher density than the belt in our system.

Yes.

> Let's say more than one significant body per km3.

No. Stop and figure out the effective mass of the "belt". It'd take
more mass than a gas giant. And they'd attract each other until they'd
either ejected most of the bodies from the belt, or formed into larger
bodies.


> If that case, do two near asteroid follow quite the same orbit?

Only if they are close enough to be orbiting each other. Otherwise it
takes only a small difference in orbital radius to amount to *days* of
difference in orbital period. So while they might be close together for
a while (part of one orbit) it'd be a *long* time before they got
anywhere close again.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:24:56 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Marc's new task system

At 12:02 AM 24/04/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> 	Could someone either send me a copy of MMs new T4 task system, or give
me a URL where I can find it?
>> 
>> 	I've been hunting through the millions of Traveller pages out there,
but I can't seem to find it.
>>
>
>K.C.,
>
>Marc's going to--
>
>Target Number = Attribute + Skill   
>(just like in the current edition of T4).
>
>
>
>Difficulties are:
>
>Easy               Auto/1D
>Average          2D
>Difficult            2.5D
>Formidable      3D
>Staggering      4D
>Impossible       5D
>

Nope, it still suffers the same problems the last one did. Only slightly less.

Marc, if you can hear me, could you please explain your reasoning for this
task system, as opposed to say, somthing similar to previous games sytem
(TNE, MT, other other known systems). Perhaps knowledge of it's fundamental
idea will enable me to use it in a better way.
I would like to use the system, but I need something to tell my players.



Harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:23:34 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The 3-Task System

Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:46:54 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: The 3-Task System

(Quote)
        I know the Big Task Thread is finished, but, just in case
anybody
is
interested, I am toying with an MT-like task system. The reason are my
personal tastes: I want to roll only 2D6, to use T4 character generation
and
T4/Emperor's Arsenal weapon stats. No real rationale for preferring this
to
other system, The probabilities are somewhat related to those of MT with
the
corrections I want to account for the extra skills, and I mixed it all
with
an immediate aplication for the combat/damage system which uses the T4
rules
to some extent, partiallyt incorporating the Max.3D damage in a way I
think
makes more sense. So,

The 3-Task System: An alternative Task and Combat System for T4
- - -------------------------------------------------------------------

One and only requisiste: Remember the multiples of three:
3,6,9,12,15,18,21

Tasks:
=====

        2D6+Skill+(Attribute/3) <= (Difficulty)

        (round fractions down)

        Maximum allowed DM: +10

(Quote ends)

Why do you have a Maximum allowed DM at all ?
 
(Quote)
        Difficulty      Code
        ----------------------
        Easy            6+
        Average         9+
        Difficult       12+
        Formidable      15+
        Staggering      18+
        Impossible      21+
        ----------------------
(Quote ends)

How about Nearly Impossible 21+ and Impossible 24+  If you leave in the
maximum +10 DM then no charecter will ever be able to complete an
_Impossible_ task.  The grammarian part of me has always thought that
Impossible tasks should be _impossible_.

(Quote)
        Note: Average characters got a DM of +2 from a level-7
attribute,
which
explains Average being 9+.
        
        This system is very similar to MT, but designed for T4
characters
who have
a significatively larger number of skills. For most characters, Easy,
Average and Difficult are roughly equivalent to Easy, Routine and
Difficult
in MT. Formidable somewhere between Difficult and Formidable in MT,
Staggering somewhere betwwn Formidable and Impossible in MT.

        Spectacular Success: When the actual roll makes the next
difficulty level
(i.e. exceeds the required level by 3+). Example: Rolling 12+ in an
Average
task.

        Spectacular Failure: When the actual roll does NOT make the
previous
difficulty level (i.e. fails by 4+). Can give rise to a 2D mishap.
Example:
Not rolling 6+ in an Average task.

(Quote ends)

How about if a roll that does not make the second previous difficulty
level  (fails by 7+) adds 1d to the mishap table, a roll that does not
make the third previous difficulty level (fails by 10+ adds 2d to the
mishap table, etc.  This may be too lethal, but spectacular failures at
harder tasks should be worse as well as more frequent.  

(Quote)
        Marginal success: If the roll equals the required level exactly.
Example:
Rolling exactly 7 in an Average task.

        Fumble: An exact roll of 2 is always a failure, regardless of
DMs.
Can give
rise to a 3D mishap.

Mishap table (2D or 3D)
- - ----------------------------------
2       reroll
3+      No damage
6+      Superficial
9+      Minor
12+     Major
15+     Really serious
18+     Destroyed
- - ----------------------------------
(Quote ends)

How about 4d mishaps ?

(Quote)

Combat System:
=============

        Use the T4 difficulty levels and weapon DMs for the to hit
tasks.
        For assessing damage, refer to the result of the task

        Fumble: Implement a 2D mishap.
        Spectacular Failure: Failed
        Failure: Failed
        Marginal Success: Only 1D damage from the attack is taken.
        Success: Normal T4 rules. Maximum 3D damage.
        Spectacular Success: No maximum damage, all the damage of the
weapon is taken.

(Quote ends)

Well then how is Spectacular Success any better than a regular Success
if you are using a weapon that only does 1 to 3 dice of dammage anyway
?  Otherwise this is good.

(Quote)

Variation: Record the Hit numbers from MT and substitute the dice of
damage
for hits. For the "1" damage points generated by the T4 system, record
each
three of them as a whole hit.
- -
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer 

(Quote ends) 

This is a really good system.  I posted something similar a few months
ago but your system seems better, in my system task difficulty went up
by fours which may have been too harsh.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:59:46 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

K.C. Komosky wrote:

[snip]
>	Now Rod, don't bore the poor Americans and Europeans with our little
>home-grown political strife. Goodness knows enough Canadians go to sleep
>after listening about "the Quebec question".


	Yeah, I know...  By way of justification, though, Mike's comment
was on the same order as someone saying "have you ever had your players
meet an entire stateful of Klansmen, like Missouri".

	Couldn't let that one by without a comment...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:02:17 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

>Is it a given that as technology increases, women will choose to not 
>carry them? I can't believe it.  I was adopted. I *know* that there 
>is no difference in the mother/daughter bond, but I wouldn't have 
>traded my pregnancies and births merely because it was convenient or 
>easier.

Suzette, I'm very happy that you feel that way about pregnancy and etc.,
and I share those views as much as a male can. BUT, :) I have a number
of (female) friends who feel exactly opposite. So, I think that such a 
technology/state of mind could easily exist somewhere in the 3I. Think
_Brave New World_ and the society it exhibits. Sterility from birth 
[decanting] through geneering, and social engineering from decanting
to make the citizens think of giving birth the way we [generally] feel
about incest. I could easily see that in some of the stricter or religious
forms of government. I heard a lot about the "mother instinct" after the
Susan Smith episode when the comment that most came up in conversation
was "How could she do that to her own children?", but the recent thread
about the human Aslan tribes brought up the point of socially accepted/
ignored infanticide reported in some countries today. So I could see it
on a few Trav planets; IMHO a lot of what we call instinct is social
conditioning, to be tinkered w/ by government, Hiver, or GM as you 
prefer :)



**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1251
***********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1252



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up
Re: conservations
Re: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)
Re: The FORLORN
Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:
RE: Variety
Re: Milieu:1889
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)
Re: Re: All Tech Levels
Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re:Jumpspace Passing of Time
Re: Handheld Meson Guns
Re: conservations
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Separatist groups in Traveller
Re: APRIL THUDDD, SSDS & QSDS
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Variety
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1241
Re: The FORLORN
Re: Milieu:1889
!"$%^&*!
Re: Ancient Rosette
Hello fellow Travellers
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:03:38 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up

At 03:08 23/04/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:

>> against people who bathe regularly,  against people who
>> don't bathe regularly,
>
>Whoa! Those last two are a matter of *health*. As in it reduces the
>chances of things spreading in crowded barracks or troop ships. So that
>is something that they *will* have to teach, just like teaching the
>backwoods types about using the 'fresher instead of the bushes around
>the barracks.

I wouldn't get too carried away on that notion. I suspect that the hygene
value of the west's beloved daily shower is over-rated. In a crowded
situation bathing can actually spread infections such as Atheles Foot unless
the bathing facilities are kept meticulously clean.

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:03:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: conservations

At 02:02 23/04/97 PST, you wrote:
>It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
>1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
>state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
>joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.
>
>If I wanted to do the trig, I could send *3* equal masses off at mutual
>120 angles, and still get a total of zero. But I'd have to use complex
>numbers for the KE of two of them.
>
>But the *total* KE of ship plus star is always *constant*. You only
>have to make the energy expended equal KE gained in the frame of the
>ship!
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
Unless I'm seriously mistaken momentum is conseved, not KE. Because KE is
proportional to V squared, and momentum to V only in exceptional
circumstances will both be conserved.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:08:15 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)

Yeah, I designed a similar system, also at TL15. I broke more 
rules, though. I used a handcomp and laser rangefinder combo to control 
the meson detonation point. The laser gives a range, the comp adds a 
certain distance based on user preference (I think 4 inches works great 
for most infantry apllications, and this could be changed), and sets the 
meson to detonate there. Works even better if the hand comp is linked to 
the user via a neural interface. Mine had a damage of 4 or 5; power was 
by battery packs (rechargable), with 10 shots each. Lost the specifics 
for it though...

	Great thing about meson guns is the make great terror weapons; 
sort of like the Fed Ex slogan: "whoever you are, wherever you may be, 
we can get you."

Ryuan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:57:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: The FORLORN

Wow,

Great work, Bruce. Excellent stuff. Maybe you could do AA #2. :)

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:54:43 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Official SSDS Question--Ship's LasersRe:

At 22:16 23/04/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 04/23/97 at 11:53 PM,  Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> said:
>
>>  Also without Grav Focusing the lasers will be more
>> powerful inside their effective range, because they'll be more efficient.
>
>Why?
>
>What's the *reason* non-grav focused lasers are more efficient?  How does
>grav focusing make a laser less efficient?  Is it just because FFS setup
>the tables that way?  Or is it just because with non-focused lasers all the
>energy goes into lasing, rather than generating the grav focusing effect? 
>IAC, the effect is whatever we want it to be, because grav focusing is a
>*total* speculation.
>
>Eris
I was indeed talking about the FF&S tables, which I've always presumed were
that way to because the gravitic focusing would need power. I've always felt
that Grav focused lasers efficiency should vary depending on the focus
factor and the TL, rather than the fixed 20% efficiency in FF&S.
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:54:49 +0000
From: "Doctor Vince" <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Variety

On 04/23/97 at 02:17 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
said:

> If you look at the way the low level stuff in DNA works and the
> amount of noninformational garbage there is in the DNA...

There isn't a lot of "garbage" in DNA, per se. There is a fair amount 
of evidence to suggest that the non-peptide encoding sequences are 
still important in terms of controlling transcription and expression 
of genes, as well as dictating the way the DNA binds to histones and 
is packed into chromosomes...while much of this "data" is peripheral 
to actually making the proteins, it provides an important context for 
it.

Apologies to the gearheads, but being one of the few life scientists 
on the list I had to speak up...

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The passion of lovers is for death...
                                    -Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for 
  His Infernal Majesty, is: drvince@ix.netcom.com
- --------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:33:49 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

At 06:53 PM 4/24/97 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>At 19:45 22/04/97 -0700, Mike Sellers  wrote:
>>Okay, speculation time: Will there be any device invented in the next 1-10
>>years that will have as great an impact on our society as the transistor?
>>If so, what is it?  
>>
>>The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
>>storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
>>like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.
>
>>Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net
>
>Hmmm... Protein you say?
>Wonder what it tastes like?

Hahahaha!  A new kind of info-terrorism: "Pay me the money or your
corporate records are gonna go on this trisket right here!"

Seriously (well, sort of), I talked to a guy from AT&T a few years ago who
said they were actively working on a form of 3D lattice memory that worked
by changing the configuration of a small protein that was easily made by
bacteria.  Illuminating a small spot with two or three lasers induced a
folding or unfolding, allowing you set and reset the bit essentially
forever, and very very fast too.  I don't know what state this research is
in now.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:40:01 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

>>The question is:
>>
>>Which starship combat system is your favorite?
>

My own of course!
Other than that I rate Shooting Star by Yaqainto (or whatever the company
was calles), High Guard, Battle Rider and Mayday.
Brilliant Lances used a stupid somewhat vectorbased movement (I bet they
had to when they sold Triplanetary to Steve J) and the only work put into
it was damage resolution.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:38:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> Comment are welcommed.
> 

Weeee represent the heavily-armed kids....

..the heavily-armed kids
..the heavily-armed hids

weeee represent the heavily-armed kiiiiiids

And welcome you to Munchkin Land!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:44:09 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Re: All Tech Levels

>In MegaTraveller, the stated tech levels represented achievement tech levels:
>the highest technology available on that world.  It may be imported, and
>common tech might well be several levels below.

Where actually does MT state this quite large change from the more common
conception of the highest TL that is locally produced?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:42:24 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace Passing of Time

>There is an interesting side effect, though.  Crews of ships which jump
>frequently (the trader being a classic example) end up spending roughly
>half their time in jumpspace.  If you collapse subjective time in jump to
>zero, merchants end up aging half as fast as the general population.  The
>ships themselves would age half as fast, too, reducing maintenance
>requirements.  One could imagine circumstances in which jump would be used
>like a weak version of Vinge's 'bobble' technology, with ships doing a
>series of in-place jumps with rapid refueling in between to skip rapidly
>into the future.

So that's why starships over 40 years old seem as good as new :)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:48:15 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re:Jumpspace Passing of Time

>In my universe, I have the "proportional" jump drive. A ship may complete a
>jump of lesser value than it's drive rating in a proportional amount of time.
>For example, a ship with a jump2 drive can perform a 1 parsec jump in only
>half a week. To compensate for this, more fuel is consumed. Here's how it
>breaks down for a jump2 ship:
>
>Distance        Time           Fuel Consumed
>2 parsecs      1 week       Whole tank
>1 parsec        1 week        1/2 tank
>1 parsec        1/2 week     Whole tank

I used that for a while but had jumpdurations of:

Time(days) = 6 * R / Jn where R is distance in Parsecs (less than 1 parsec
equals 1 parsec) and Jn is the jumpdrive number. I choose 6 days to be more
evenly divisible and adfd 1 day for landing offloading cargo etc.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns

  Actually, handheld meson guns have been part of Traveller since CT
days.  In the adventure Twilight's Peak, the Droyne soldiers the players
encounter (I think its safe to say I'm not giving anything away as a
spoiler at this late date) are armed with meson pistols.  

  What I always liked about them was that they were described as
psionically targeted - you just decided what it was you wanted to
disappear, and it did.  This was clearly a plot device so that the troops
could disarm the players without killing them so the players could learn
something, but was still cool, I thought.  

  The Droyne were left over from the Ancients war, having been in storage,
so these pistols were Grandfather thingies.  Pretty Munchkin!! 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:53:45 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: conservations

>It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
>1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
>state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
>joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.

Not.
KE is velocity (vector) times velocity (vector) which produces a scalar.
Mass is also a scalar so KE is a scalar. aren't you confusing KE with
momentum?
Momentum is velocity(vector) times mass(scalar) equals momentum(vector).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:16:45 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

Mike Sellers wrote:

> Careful, or we'll bring up things like the Ontario government (any old one,
> I don't care :) ) or even the movie _Canadian Bacon_.  Of course you could
> bring up _Roger & Me_ and its sequel _Pets or Meat_...

Well, I guess we could also bring up the October Crisis of 1970. If an
american president were to take away everyone's civil rights, there'd be
civil war!

> ObTrav:  Anyone ever get their players mixed up with separatists like the
> Quebecois, or even the IRA?  There's gotta be a lot of good adventures there.

Aren't the Ine Givar in a sense, separatists? They're a Zhodani
"fifth-column" organization, right?

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:03:49 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

At 08:59 AM 4/24/97 -0400, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>[snip]
>>	Now Rod, don't bore the poor Americans and Europeans with our little
>>home-grown political strife. Goodness knows enough Canadians go to sleep
>>after listening about "the Quebec question".
>
>	Yeah, I know...  By way of justification, though, Mike's comment
>was on the same order as someone saying "have you ever had your players
>meet an entire stateful of Klansmen, like Missouri".

Maybe I should have stated that I lived in Toronto for two years under Bob
Rae's government, when the Quebec question was heating up.  Despite the
press's build up of the "culture clash", all the francophones I met in
Quebec were happy to help an English-speaker; the same cannot be said for
all the francophobes (!) I met in Ontario.  

Besides, it's _Mississippi_ that has all the Klansmen.

Have I offended everyone yet? :p
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:09:19 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Separatist groups in Traveller

Without bringing up Quebec or the IRA, there *is* some reference to 
the Tanoose Freedom League in CT adventure 7, Broadsword.

The TFL were an independence movement on Garda-Vilis (once called 
Tanoose, now ruled from Vilis) who stressed their basic loyalty to 
the Imperium, rejecting the advances of Ine Givar terrorist agents.
Or at least leaving their bodies outside the scout base...

The Ine Givar were effectively a front for the Zhodani, who used them 
as guerillas in the FFW.

Nick
Dr. N.S. Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, Univ. of Sheffield, U.K.
email N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk, tel. +44 (0)114 222 2673

Liberal elitist socialist * Cat-lover * Guitarist * Sardonic humourist

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:16:01 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD, SSDS & QSDS

One of the thing I like about the THUDDD contest is that it gets us thinking
about and working with the ship design system.  Here are a few things that I
noticed as a result of the April THUDD.

G Tanks: SSDS has G Tanks but does not say how to use them or for that matter
what they are. FF&S says that "G Tanks always compensate 1G and all
passengers crew in tanks are treated as strapped into a workstation (and so
use that column)".  The way I read this is that G Tanks are not any better
than being strapped into a workstation and therefore would be useless on
ships with workstations for its crew.  Some people think that G Tanks give an
addition 1G on top of every thing else and maybe this is what SSDS and FF&S2
should do.

Max Acceleration:  It seems that in QSDS there is no mention of acceleration
being limited by Grav Compensation.

Armor and Mass:  Mark Clark suggested he would like to have a ship whit an
Armor rating of 50 or so.  Unfortunately this completely ignores that well
armored hulls are really massive and should degrade the performance of your
maneuver drives.  My THUDDD design (which I did using QSDS and the redesigned
with FF&S) has only an armor rating of 20, ended up with a thrust to mass
ratio of 2:1 even though it was designed with 4G thrusters.  QSDS ignores
mass, but since QSDS also give you prebuilt hull this isn't a big problem
(well there are a few hulls which could be problems). SSDS on the other hand
only limits hulls based on cost and volume.  Neither of these are sufficient
to keep a ship from having an overly massive hull.  Now, SSDS has you keep
track of mass, but it does not do anything with this.  What seems to be
missing from SSDS is the part from FF&S that said that if a ship massed 15.5+
metric tons per displacement ton then a ship should recalculate its
acceleration based on mass instead of volume.

Laser ROF:  I would imagine that a laser with a ROF of 100 (1 shot ever 18
seconds) would be 10x more effective that a laser with an ROF of 10 (1 shot
ever 3 minutes) but calculating SSDS laser ratings resulting in only some
improvement in penetration (as if you are hitting the same spot repeatedly). 
This just doesn't make much sense to me but I don't have a suggestion on what
do instead, except maybe increasing the damage rating by 10.  This stuff was
probable debated on the GDW-Beta List but I don't recall.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:19:04 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

At 09:02 AM 4/24/97 -0400, Paul D. Owensby wrote:
>>Is it a given that as technology increases, women will choose to not 
>>carry them? I can't believe it.  I was adopted. I *know* that there 
>>is no difference in the mother/daughter bond, but I wouldn't have 
>>traded my pregnancies and births merely because it was convenient or 
>>easier.
>
>Suzette, I'm very happy that you feel that way about pregnancy and etc.,
>and I share those views as much as a male can. BUT, :) I have a number
>of (female) friends who feel exactly opposite. 

And how many of them have kids?  Suzette's point is a valid one, shared by
an overwhelming majority of women who have had kids.  Having kids (the
actual carrying, birthing, nursing, etc.) is one of those life experiences
that puts your life on an entirely new vector that you just _cannot_
predict beforehand.  I've seen this happen over and over in both men and
women who had protested otherwise previously.  It's one of the
wonderful/scary things about having kids!

Some things can be done better without technology than with.  (Hmmm... with
this subject and that statement, I can see us heading for "Barbarella" real
quick. :p )


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:13:46 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

At 07:31 pm 04/23/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Either way, I'm *strongly* in favor of vectored movement. It's *not*
>>that hard to do, and helps remind folks that this ain't Star Wars or
>>Star Trek.
>
>May I add a plea to include 3D vectors, even if in an abstract form. I have
>never seen 3D movement handled simply and effectively in a game, except
>perhaps in StarForce and there movement was more strategic than tactical.
>
>I realize if this was easy to do every game would have it. Consider it a
>challenge; how do we represent 3D vectors on a hex map simply and
>effectively? Solving this will give Traveller an advantage over all the
>other space games and perhaps form a basis for other games from IG.

	If we're going to take a challenge, let's not unnecessarily restrict it
from the beginning. Who says the best way to do a *simple, easy-to-play* 3D
vector game will still involve hexmaps? Yes, it works great for 2D games,
but maybe, maybe not for 3D. I don't know either way, personally, but let's
keep our options open. As long as it's simple...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:22:10 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Variety

At 08:52 am 04/24/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>It's interesting that most DNA is packed with extranious..as far as we
>>know..noninformational data.  A story in Analog a couple of years ago
>>speculated that our DNA is encoded with data placed there, in some way, by
>>alien progenitors.
>>
>>Re Traveller...maybe Grandpop, planted a few coded messages here and there
>>for *who* knows what purpose.  ;->
>>
>>Eris
>
>Or it could be that genetical memory data some speculate in a la Bene
>Gesserit of Herbert. The grandfather theory though seems more interesting
>except that he seems to have put the data into all earthly organisms that
>we have checked so far. Maybe all data the senses of the organism pick up
>is checked with this data and if a match the organism will self destruct or
>something. Sort of a programmers backdoor to kill of any dangerous
>organisms when they reach a certain TL. The Darrians code didn't work so he
>had to flare them (the star trigger was only a coverup from him).
>Or the data could be information we are carrying to somewhere for unknown
>purposes. This explains the fact that we all want to go to space despite
>Earth being such a friendly place (this makes all space hating mudballers
>mutants).

	I remember reading an Analog article a while back where somebody decoded
it ... Turned out to be something along the lines of "Species (C) 591002
MxfTh'Fu"
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:48:16 +0000
From: mwj1psy@basil.acs.bolton.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1241

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:48:51 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: The FORLORN

Okay, I only skimmed this, and it was good.  Still... the Lamarckian
aspects of the Forlorn's adaptation to space did leap out at me.  At the
very least they must have had an incredible birth rate and very high infant
mortality to get significant evolution in a relatively short period of
time, particularly since humans are not well known for mating based on
obvious survival characteristics.  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:36:43 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Milieu:1889

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 19:45 22/04/97 -0700, Mike Sellers  wrote:
> >The only thing I could come up with off-hand is 3D protein pigment memory
> >storage: cheap, high yields, radiation resistant, and you can get something
> >like a terabyte of storage in a 1cm cube.
> 
> Hmmm... Protein you say?
> Wonder what it tastes like?

Chicken, of course!

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 18:12 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: !"$%^&*!

My ISP just ate a load of unread email, so if anyone said anything 
important over the last day or two, I didn't hear it.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosette

K.C. Komosky wrote:

>	Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I
>know that
>there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four or
>five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that is
>somewhere in the Vargr Extents.
>
>	But I can't find it. Can anyone give me any more information about
>this
>wonder of the Ancient world?
>
>	I'm creating (by hand - I'm a glutton for punishment) a sector near
>Vargr
>space, and I want something spectacular to put in subsectors C and D.

Funny you should mention this. I was _just_ trying to find this in my own
Traveller books not two days ago! I've got the players in my campaign
venturing into Tuglikki Sector, and I wanted to see if that was the sector
where the rosette was.

I think it's further trailing like in Windhorn or Provence. I'll let you
know if I find it!

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml



- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:00:18 -0500
From: Kevin Scardino <kjscar@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Hello fellow Travellers

I'm new to the list and was wondering if there any traveller web pages out
there.
I would like to make a list the the known one and establish them on my web
page.  

Thanks for any help.



     >>>-----Kevin Scardino----->         kjscar@ix.netcom.com     :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:48:54 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

Paul,

I will give you that within the Imperium there will be all sorts of 
varying ideals/customs with regard to pregnancy/childbirth.  I shot 
the response off as if he was saying that it would be the norm 
*everywhere* there is the technology to do so.  It is indeed a big 
universe and the cultural phenomena is going to vary widely 
accordingly. 

'Brave New World' is one of my favorites, btw :-)

Suz

> Suzette, I'm very happy that you feel that way about pregnancy and
> etc., and I share those views as much as a male can. BUT, :) I have
> a number of (female) friends who feel exactly opposite. So, I think
> that such a technology/state of mind could easily exist somewhere in
> the 3I. Think _Brave New World_ and the society it exhibits.
> Sterility from birth [decanting] through geneering, and social
> engineering from decanting to make the citizens think of giving
> birth the way we [generally] feel about incest. I could easily see
> that in some of the stricter or religious forms of government. I
> heard a lot about the "mother instinct" after the Susan Smith
> episode when the comment that most came up in conversation was "How
> could she do that to her own children?", but the recent thread about
> the human Aslan tribes brought up the point of socially accepted/
> ignored infanticide reported in some countries today. So I could see
> it on a few Trav planets; IMHO a lot of what we call instinct is
> social conditioning, to be tinkered w/ by government, Hiver, or GM
> as you prefer :)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1252
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1253



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: FTL concepts (long?)
Re: Detectors
Traveller 1889 : The Ironwolf BattlCruiser
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: Re: The Clever GM
Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re: Marc's new task system
Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time
Re: The FORLORN
Re: Quebecois
Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re: Gays? Gimme a Break
Re: Bunks vs. staterooms
Tireen
Re: Ancient Rosette
Molecular Edges
Who we are
Re: The FORLORN
Re: [off topic] Who we are.
Re: Variety

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:20:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

In mail you write:

> No, no. Quite the opposite. I brought this up because I *want* it to be 
> difficult to find the deep space object, and I was looking for 
> justification for making it so. I assume that in the middle of nowhere, 
> finding dark matter even within a few light-seconds is a non-trivial task.

Sorry, but if you are talking km-sized or bigger bodies at a range of a
few (1-5?) light seconds, forget it. A normal ship's radar *will* pick
them up. If it couldn't, it couldn't detect ships at the more normal
ranges. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:40:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FTL concepts (long?)

In mail you write:

> "we're just going really really fast" - FTL equivalent?  Actually,
> I used to prefer Pipers' hyperdrive for serious SF, but I have to
> lean towards stutterwarp now, as it covers both M-drive and FTL
> requirements fairly reasonably, and most other systems I've seen
> only manage one really well.  Sadly, Pipers' normal space drive
> fails on the "pushing on the star" math. Can't we change the math?

Actually, we never really get told much about *how* the drives work.
But note that the kludged-together spaceship in Cosmic Computer makes a
*very* strong point regarding the idea that "lift" (CG) and "drive"
(horizontal motion on the ground, vertical motion during "boost") are
two *seperate* systems. They even make a point about them working "in
line" with each other after they change the ship's orientation!

So however the "drive" part works, it *ain't* "pushing" on the
planet/star/whatever. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:04:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Detectors

In mail you write:

> Hello,
>>You'll get multiple "hits" *if* your detector has enough "cross
>>section". But that's just *bit* hard to do. :-)
>
>   More seriously on the sensor question, wouldn't using a telescope
> to follow up on a passive detection avoid a lot of the hassle of
> worrying about losing them after a nuke det?  Of course, how degraded
> the actives are is another issue.

Visual stealth is easy. Think "flat black paint". While not too
practical with ships, it's a winner on missiles. So that limits the
usefulness of a telescope.

>   For the PD firecon wouldn't a short term solution be multiple
> short range radar arrays kept undeployed (and shielded) under
> armour?  Nuke blinds your radar, pop, up goes another one while
> repairs are undertaken, if possible.

Most of a radar array isn't "fry-able". It's not until the signal gets
to the actual *detector* (as opposed to the focusing elements and
microwave "plumbing") that there's anything that will overload short of
a burst close enough to *melt* the surface of the hull. So it'd likely
be good design to have the detector inside the hull where you can get
at it, and maybe even have an automatic swapping arrangement.

>   And how about using nukes to blind incoming missile swarms?
> They can't be shielded very easily, and if they're blind, they
> will miss.

Trouble is, they blind *you* also, and in space, most of the output of
a nuke is in the x-ray range. In atmosphere, the bige fireball and
thermal flash (and shockwave) all come from the x-rays being absorbed
by the air, which then gets heated to incandescence. 

The x-ray flux is far more dangerous to your ship, and to your sensors.
It could also cause early detonation of *any* missiles within a certain
range, including the ones you are firing!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 05:14:42 +1000
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Traveller 1889 : The Ironwolf BattlCruiser

This is an aalpha version of the Ironwolf BC for 1889.

It is built with QSDS/SSDS/VDS  with the assumption that :

1. There is relativly no controls and weapoin control (The analog
computer would only give speeds and bearings ov "visual" range
targets").

2. The engine is steam turbine , with coal as the fuel (I need to work
out what is the water requirements, as well as air  (if needed)

3. Armour. While the ship has twice the internal struture needed , it
still has no armour , as the density of wood in VDS is 1 per 1m^3, which
makes it redicolous to try to use it as armour.

4. All items inside are as per QSDS/SSDS. I will proberbly double the
size of the items to represent ineficienies and large size componants.

5. Missiles. The only weapons are 36 missile batteries with NO GUIDENCE.
Broadsides at knife fighting range anyone???

6. I have not costed it, as it would be irrelevent to cos it for the
culture using Traveller costs. It would be like buying a 1750's
man-o-war with today's value of money.

7. There is a lot of space here. I envision it to be used for cargo or
troop transport.

8. The crewing is a guestimation. I worked off 10 officers and 200
ratings. The officers get staterooms, wheile the rating gets bunks (in
quite times. cre may use spare cargo space)

9. Endurence is for 300 hours. It can be more by sacrifising cargo space
(which is not a problem in this ship).

                                            The Ironwolf Battle Cruiser

Ton : 2000            Volume : 28,000
Crew : 210
Cargo : 12,285        Control : none

Size : 9                        Jump rating : 0
F/C : None                 G rating  : 2
Battery 1 (16 missile turrents- Port)
Battery 2 (16 missile turrents - Starboard)
                                    Powr : 6

                                Armour : 0     Structure : 20

Space for 4 ship boats (80tn maximum, spacous hanger)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

	Howdy!

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> Debatable. The ancient Egyptian pharaohs (sp?) tended to marry within their 
> families so as not to dilute the purity of their bloodlines (and I doubt they 
> are unique in that). As for pedophilia, that depends on the age of consent. 
> When does someone become an adult? 21? 18? 16? It wouldn't be unusual (even 
> here on earth) for a couple, legally married for several years, to move 
> abroad and find that in their new home they are too young to have sex.

	I mentioned this on an early post.  There are a few cultures where
sibling marriage is acceptable, but only among the highest echelons of the
ruling class.  It is still deemed illegal/reprehensible for anyone else in
theat culture (Pharoahs were divine, after all).

	I agree, age of consent is everything.  Among several tribes in
New Zealand, sex with younger men (age 12-15) by older adults (ages 20-30)
is acceptable, as long as it is ritualized and they are part of the same
"hunting fraternity" (bad term, but a close approxiamtion).  There, the
object was to keep virility amongst the men.

	By the universal taboo, it is appropriate to say that sex with
youn children (newborn to 8 years) is universally frowned upon by
societies.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1997 18:27:56 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: The Clever GM

>I can see how a military would accept such rules based on its own
>prejudices, but the resulting logistical problems are so big (especially
>if it isn't just one or two simple prejudices like sex and skin color)...

Think of the colonial regiments in the last century.  

If you assume computerized book-keeping and accounting (run by Vilani
quartermasters) then the logistics shouldn't be a problem.  It would be no
different than having a species-specific regiment.  (Which I have in my
games, based on the Aslan Guard from TD#9.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:48:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

	Howdy!

	Wasn't it in one of the Paranoia Press books?  Heck, there was a
RINGWORLD in one....

	Later!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1997 18:32:19 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Marc's new task system

After looking at all the task systems that floated around here, I've decided
that, for me, Traveller means having only two dice.  I'd rather use D10s,
D20s, and so forth than have to add up five or six numbers on the fly.  In
fact, I rather like the percentile system in Runequest/Call of Cthulu because
it involves no addition.

So, it looks like I will be playing T4 with the MT task system (or I may
stick with the TNE task system).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Gays, gimme a break. One last Time

	Greetings!


On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > And while I wouldn't be surprised to find modern organizations in
> > favour of de-criminalizing incest, my best example is the terrible
> > inbreeding in the royal houses of Europe, or in ancient Egypt.

	Again, this was only aceptable because ROYALTY were involved.  The
ruling chelons have been/are exempt from a number of cultural laws and
mores... <g>.  The European houses involved close-cousin marriages, while
the Egyptians invloved sibling crosses (what better way to keep the power
in the family).

> Once we get the ability to scan genetic codes easily, it *should* be a
> matter of whether or not your genes are likely to cause problems for
> offspring rather than how "closely" related you are. 

	Interesting...  And quite correct.
> 
> And that brings up the matter of "at what point do you tell people that
> they aren't allowed to have children with each other because of
> possible genetic abnormalities"? Because that's *all* the anti-incest
> rules amount to as far as any non-religious basis goes.
> 
	Yes.  There is an argument among some physical anthropologists
that incest is actually an advantages behaviour in small populations, as
it weeds out the lethal genes.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:45:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The FORLORN

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:

> Okay, I only skimmed this, and it was good.  Still... the Lamarckian
> aspects of the Forlorn's adaptation to space did leap out at me.  At the
> very least they must have had an incredible birth rate and very high infant
> mortality to get significant evolution in a relatively short period of
> time, particularly since humans are not well known for mating based on
> obvious survival characteristics.  

Hmmm...I was very careful NOT to imply Lamarkian genetics at all. There is
a passage in the article to the effect that the majority of their physical
differences are due to an entire life spent at low gee...if you use your
toes to grip things from an early age through to adulthood, you are going
to have well developed and agile toes. I know this...I have a friend who
can reach out and pinch like hell with her toes ;-) 

From what we know of short term exposure to zero gee conditions, I suspect
that physically there will be considerable differences due to lifelong
exposure. They DID have a period of horrible die-off, so the population
rebuilt itself from a fairly small population. 

Genetically they are probably no more different from Imperial humans that
Solomani are from Vilani, or Darrians, or Zhodani, all of whom have fairly
distinctive traits, since they are another of Grandfathers kids...

Their susceptibility to disease can be easily explained by their going to
a disease-free state before boarding the original ships, and their
subsequent lack of exposure over the next couple of millenia...actually it
would only take a generation or two before an isolated population would be
susceptible to a number of diseases.

The Forlorn are probably a relatively short lived group as a separate
'species'. The main imetus for their differences, that they were
travelling, essentially, in low gee generation ships, has been removed,
and they will probably be absorbed into Imperial society.

I suspect that another few generations along, unless they work at
maintaining a separate society, there will be Forlorn living throuought
the Imperium, distinguished only by names, a few odd holidays, and a
family history. The 27 will probably still exist as a dusty museum, and
there will be pockets of old Forlorn living here and there, following the
'old' ways. 

Sad in a way, though, I like them.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

 
Roderick Darroch Elliott trolled the list about how
'separatists=racists'.  This isn't much on the topic of this list,
but I'd very much like to tell everybody that it isn't true.  I'm
mostly on the separatist side, and yes, I am a racist - I'm in favour
of the human race.  :)  Roderick's perception that separatists say
that 'Quebecois' have to be 'pure laine' isn't true at all.  How
quickly have people forgotten Parizeau's great introductory speech
about a lot of our entertainment stars being born outside of Canada
and such, a lot of our politicians being of italian origins, etc
etc...  Isn't it because of 'federalist' pressures that M. Malavoy,
originally a german citizen (and a friend of the family :) was moved
out of office?  
 
	What Mr. Parizeau meant by the 'minority vote' is a
well-known fact; all the COFI and other centers of immigrant help
here are bastions of the federalist powers, who certainly do their
best to brainwash new citizens...  And that's just the tip of the
iceberg.
 
	A few studies have shown that Quebecois are even more
open-minded that then rest of Canada!  If there IS some form of
segretation, it's more likely to be along language lines than
race/minority lines...  To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... "  ":)
 
Ok, back to traveller :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:44:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

     Don't remember where it is located, but I know that the location is
mentioned a couple of different places, one of them being in the MT
Referee's Manual.  I seem to recall it being part of a side-bar, more than
likely in the world-generation chapter.  I can't remember any of the other
places, but I know I've come across this factoid more than once.

Hope this helps,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:25:49 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Gays? Gimme a Break

>or how about Geriatric care in the Imperium, boy that's a fascinating
>one,

One sentence will show how this has relevance to a Traveller discussion:

"Soylent Green is people!!!!!!"

:)
John 
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Bunks vs. staterooms

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Richard Hough wrote:

> >Given a choice between more
> >firepower and more comfortable sleeping quarters, I think the decision for
> >a warship
> >would always be more firepower. Even on a larger ship, the larger crew
> >would still make this a clear cut choice.
> 
> I agree that from a design standpoint, bunks are smaller and take less
> power, so based on simple finances one might think bunks are more cost
> effective than staterooms. However, I don't agree that skimping on crew
> space will provide more firepower. At least, more firepower that will hit
> enemy ships.

Speaking from my experience in a 'wet' Navy, I would tend to disagree.
The design of a warship is based around it's payload (ie. the weapons it
carries), the delivery systems, the direct support systems and then the
secondary support systems.  It has to be balanced for offense and defense,
and crew considerations, while important, are secondary to this.  For
example, air conditioning.  For a ship operating in and around the
tropics, the interior of a ship can become stifling.  A/C is provided in
the sleeping areas, otherwise crew effeciency would plummit.  But if you
do not work in a space where the equipment (electronics or computers) or
the environment (engineering is literally unbearable without it, barely
tolerable with it) require A/C, you don't get it.

> First of all, to attract and keep a high-quality crew you have got to
> provide them comfortable sleeping quarters. In WWII  you could get away
> with putting conscripts into floating sardine cans, but contract employees,
> like Imperial Navy crew, can simply change jobs if they don't like the
> working conditions. I'm no naval admiral, but I believe that crew which has
> good living conditions will perform more effectively and with better morale
> than crew treated like human cordwood.

But that is how 60% of U.S. sailors do live.  And we have a very effective
force out there!  Retention is always a big concern, but the Navy is
consistantly able to attract trained or trainable recruits to fill the
need.  (tho' it's not funt to be a recruiter!)

> 
> Second, starship crews cannot surface or stroll the deck on a break; there
> is no outside of a ship in jump space. Any room for study, recreation,
> briefing, or training must be inside the ship and bunks provide no space
> for this. Some members of the crew, like gunnery, will have no duties
> during jump and will be more useful training or performing maintenance.
> Having to do this in available space, like engineering or the bridge, will
> impede normal ship operations.

There are a thousand jobs that must be done at any given point of a trip
that are not detailed in the game.  Calibration and maintenance tests for
the electronics and computing systems of the weapons.  Physical
maintenance of the machinery that drives the weapons themselves.
Simulations to hone thier skills.  Gunners, like all crewmembers, WILL be
busy during jump.  
  
> Third, starships in the Third Imperium are not like U Boats. Space travel
> has been around for millennia and starship design is by now highly
> optimized and effective. The rules state command personnel and passengers
> must have staterooms, so there must be some advantage in doing this.
> Whether for morale, carrying out one's work, or just economics, the same
> principles will apply to all crewmembers. Naval architects aren't going to
> put staterooms in unless they give some advantage. While a high passenger
> or ship captain may have more clout, what's good for the captain is good
> for the lowliest gunner.

Based on my experience, a rack is just someplace to sleep.  Given a choice
between having a cramped workspace (where I spend most of my time), and a
large room that I have to keep up, or a larger workspace and smaller
personal space - well, the workspace makes more sense.  It's tough
sometimes, but you adapt.

> 
> Therefore, your choice is really between untrained, unmotivated slave labor
> with more weaponry, or highly trained and motivated combat professionals
> with fewer weapons. Frankly, the untrained crew will have zero firepower if
> they mutiny at the first sight of an enemy ship. For me, this also is a
> clear cut choice, but other navies may have different philosophies.
> Unfortunately, Traveller's space combat system has no rules for crew
> quality, so the comparison between the two will for now be only
> theoretical.

The argument for better trained crews that can handle their weapons more
effectively only looks good on paper.  Time and time again, battle
experience has almost always favored the side with the weight of fire on
thier side.  Don't get me wrong, training is important.  It's a vital part
of any modern Navy.  But battles have been lost because of logistic
issues, where critical elements had to withdraw because their ammunition
reserves were exhausted.  It was true when ships were powered by oars,
it's true now, and it will continue to be true as long as sapients feel
the need to blow each other up.

> 
> In my campaign, all military ships have at least a small stateroom for
> every two crewmembers, and personal staterooms for every crewmember on
> capital ships.
> 
> --
> Richard Hough
> rdhough@orca.bc.ca
> 
> 

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:22:55 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@dk-online.dk>
Subject: Tireen

24/4-97 K.C. Komosky wrote:

> 	Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I know
that 
> there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four
or 
> five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that
is 
> somewhere in the Vargr Extents.
> 
> 	But I can't find it. Can anyone give me any more information about this 
> wonder of the Ancient world?

You can find mention of it _one_ place, as far as I remember, namely in the
Imperial Encyclopedia, Library Data, Ancients, p. 17:

"There is evidence they created the multiworld rosette at Tireen (Knaeleng
2910, in the Vargr extents)."

This is all.

Hope this helps.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/Mark_Seemann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:33:15 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosette

Chris Griffen wrote:
> 
> K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 
> >       Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I
> >know that
> >there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four or
> >five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that is
> >somewhere in the Vargr Extents.
> >
> >       But I can't find it. Can anyone give me any more information about
> >this
> >wonder of the Ancient world?
> >
> >       I'm creating (by hand - I'm a glutton for punishment) a sector near
> >Vargr
> >space, and I want something spectacular to put in subsectors C and D.
> 
> Funny you should mention this. I was _just_ trying to find this in my own
> Traveller books not two days ago! I've got the players in my campaign
> venturing into Tuglikki Sector, and I wanted to see if that was the sector
> where the rosette was.
> 
> I think it's further trailing like in Windhorn or Provence. I'll let you
> know if I find it!

You should check
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061/ancients.html there's a
system with a rosette described there. Though it doesn't say anything
more about it than that it's in the Knaeleng subsector.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:26:44 -0700
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Molecular Edges

Looking for information on how molecular edges (i.e. an edge one or a
few molecules thick) might work in Traveller - specifically on a cutlass. 
As I recall, one was mentioned in one of Saberhagan's (sp?) berserker
stories, and we've probably all seen the molecular thumbnail whip from
Johnny Mnemonic.  Cool effect, but didn't seem plausible.

My questions are:
What element(s) would be used and how would the edge be attached? 
Carbon-carbon bond strengths look pretty promising.

Could the bond strengths be increased by applying an electrical current? 
If so, this could open the field to a lot of other elements.  This could
translate into a sort of light-saber effect.

What happens at the atomic level as the molecular edge contacts a
surface or is parried by another molecular edge?  Will it necessarily glide
through anything, or would it's cutting ability be dependent on the bond
strengths of the resisting surface?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:10:53 -0700
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Who we are

I've been playing RPGs since about 1978, starting (of course) with D&D
and AD&D, and then progressing to CT and C&S.  For a brief time, I got
involved in a very detailed PBM war game called Sarakond (circa 500 BC
to 300 AD).  I played just long enough to learn the rules and get my
country, economy and military straightened out when the game folded -
much work, very frustrating.  Currently, our group has transitioned a CT
campaign to T4, and the new space combat system really pissed
everybody off.  Same gaming group since 1984, BTW.

I'm 33, married to a very understanding wife, and have 2 small children.  I
have a degree in Chemical Engineering from UC Davis and am a Licensed
Civil Engineer.  I work for the good people of the State of California
dealing with water quality and water rights.  I'll do my best to help with
any hydraulics, hydrology, or water chemistry questions that come up. 

Other interests include my pursuit of God as a Christian, a pretty good
size garden, some cool fish, and making my own beer.  Not too many
beer questions that come up on the TML.

I suppose a UPP would be 787AA8.

Skills would include:
Engineering 3, Chemistry 2, Bureaucracy 2, Beer Making 2, Theology 2,
Admin 1, Computer 1, Horticulture 1, Med 0, Psychology 0,
Procrastination 3,
Able-to-recall-any-song-lyric-but-cannot-remember-what-I-was-supposed-to-get-at-the-store 6

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:04 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The FORLORN

This should be submitted to JTAS.. immediately.  Bruce, mind if I write a
companion adventure?  Perhaps we can take over an entire issue.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:56:59 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Who we are.

At 11:50 AM 4/24/97 +1000, Solomani wrote:
>
>This whole thread is off topic, no?
>

It's just as on-topic as argueing wether Aristotle was a scientist.. and
more interesting to boot.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:20 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Variety

At 08:52 AM 4/24/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:

>Or the data could be information we are carrying to somewhere for unknown
>purposes. This explains the fact that we all want to go to space despite
>Earth being such a friendly place (this makes all space hating mudballers
>mutants).

This ties in nicely with the "siren call" of Andor and Candory we discussed
in the Templars thread..  Grandfather (or one of the kids) wants us to find
something, even to the point of instructing us through our DNA to look for it.

Yet for some reason we haven't found it yet.. maybe the Templars are hiding
the secret..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1253
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1254



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)
Re: Gun Damage
Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up
Re: The clever GM
Re: Hello fellow Travellers
Re: Gun damage
Re: Handheld Meson Guns
Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re: April THUDDD, SSDS & QSDS
Re: Hello fellow Travellers
Re: Who we are?
Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re: Detectors
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Superconductor Storage Rings
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Separatists
Re: Bunks vs. staterooms
Re: Quebecois

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:02 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns ! ! (  Was Re: Gun Damage)

At 01:58 PM 4/24/97 -0800, you wrote:

>WARNING Severe Munchkinism Follows Read At Your Own Risk !
>
>The true Traveller munchkin (in Milleau 1100) will design a hand held
>Meson weapon so as not to insure that their oponents do not try & take
>advantage of that pesky thing called armor.  This may involve some
>creative interpretation of the chapter on Meson Guns. I should point out
>in my own defence that _NO_ minimum values are given in the meson gun
>design table so it may be a legitimate design. (FFS pg 116-120)

Could I have your permission to put this on Traveller: The Silly Era?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:10 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

At 09:00 PM 4/23/97 +0000, Suz wrote:

>I could be wrong on this, of course, but it might have something to 
>do with the incredible feeling of having the baby move inside of you, 
>for the first time, the second, the hundredth. It might be the wonder 
>of poking at your stomach and feeling it kick back. It might be the 
>incredible joy of seeing that tiny little person for the first time, 
>still attached to your life blood and feeling him/her laid on your 
>stomach, touching you on the outside for the first time.
>
>There aren't enough words in our language to describe the instinct 
>that drives a more or less sane, rational woman to want to have a 
>baby, to give up so much and gain so much more.
>
>Is it a given that as technology increases, women will choose to not 
>carry them? I can't believe it.  I was adopted. I *know* that there 
>is no difference in the mother/daughter bond, but I wouldn't have 
>traded my pregnancies and births merely because it was convenient or 
>easier.

Perfectly said, Suz.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:08 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

At 04:05 AM 4/24/97 -0400, Paul Owensby wrote:
>>Damara autopsied a guy hit with a .25 that went through a window,
>>bounced off the table (grazing) and hit his chest.  Took off an
>>aorta (bad luck, eh?).
>
>Last month, we (I'm an RN on a Neurosciences/Neurosurgical unit) 
>had a cabbie who was shot in the head w/ a .32 that basically lodged 
>in her skull. A quick and (relatively) easy operation, a couple of days
>on the floor for obs, and she's probably out driving her cab again.
>
>I guess that's why we have the spectacular successes and failures :)

I love the story of the guy who was shot at point-blank range with a .45.
The slug deflected off his skull, burrowed under his skin around the head,
exiting to the rear.  Gunman saw a bloody hole in front and back, thought
his target was dead, and walked away.  The victim walked to the hospital.

The wide and weird varieties of what can happen in fire combat have turned
me off to so-called "ultra-realistic" combat systems.  If you try to model
everything, the game slows down to an unplayable crawl.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:17 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Clever GM(tm): Using points the 'gay' thread brings up

At 03:08 AM 4/23/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>I suspect that when dealing with cultures as diverse as those found in
>the Imperium, they will have rules about not putting folks from *this*
>culture in with folks from *that* culture.
>
>I also suspect that they'll go back to the idea of units being
>generally homogenous with respect to the culture they are recruited
>from. You'll tend to stay with the same "unit" (say regiment or larger
>unit) for your whole career. You'll just swap around inside it as you
>pick up skills and rank. 

In my view, the Imperial Army is made up of regiments drawn from member
worlds.  A planet has its Planetary Defence Force, and the top 10% of the
combat units get Imperial training and equipment.  These assignments are
reviewed every decade or so, so the units that hold the coveted posistions
train hard to keep the edge.

Brigades and Divisions are assembled on an "as needed" basis.  During an
invasion of a Zhodani world, for example, the Commanding General might see a
nned for a Lift Infantry Division, and tag the 17th Caponi Dragoons (Lift
Infantry), the McCallen Rifles (Lift Infantry), and the 73rd Heavy Tank to
form the unit.

It would be the duty of the officers and NCOs to insure that everybody
"played nice."  Rivalry is one thing, but when it gets to the point of
threatening the safety of the units, it must be stopped.

>This has advantages in that it's easy to grab a unit to put down an
>"uprising" and *know* that they won't be sympathetic to the wrong side.
>And it makes cuylture and tech level clashes less of a problem. 

If Imperial intervention is needed to quell an uprising on a member world, I
imagine that the Marines would be used first.  By their nature, they owe
allegience to the Emperor and the Fleet, and can be assured of acting
impartialy.  Using Army forces could led to long term resentmant aginst the
world that raised the regiment(s) involved.

>There are likely also rules about which cultures work well together. So
>if you are from a "new" culture, they can check for similar cultures
>and assign you a unit based on that. If they get enough from your
>world, you may get shifted together into the same sub-unit, just to
>make it easier to handle you.

Recruits from lo-pop worlds are probably out of luck.. for the Army they
probably travel to a neighbor world and enlist there.  Many kids from these
backwaters will enlist in the Navy or Marines just to get off the mudball
they grew up on.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:57:12 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

At 01:57 PM 4/24/97 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

>I can see how a military would accept such rules based on its own
>prejudices, but the resulting logistical problems are so big (especially
>if it isn't just one or two simple prejudices like sex and skin color)
>that I can't see the Imperial militaries putting up with a multitude of
>different prejudices like that. They'd want to be able to shift people
>around to suit their own needs without bothering about compatibility.

You do this by emphasizing from day one that the starman/Marine/soldier is
no longer white or black or male or female, but a member of His Imperial
Majesty's Armed Service, and the people around you are your comrades.  The
stressful enviroment and enforced uniformity of Basic Training, coupled with
a definate plan of instilling pride in the unit, causes old bigoted beliefs
to fall away.

In my own experience, we had a guy nicknamed Opie (he looked just like Ron
Howard's character from the Andy Griffith Show), who was *shocked* when he
was the only trainee in our platoon who wanted to go to church.  It was
completely outside his experience that any civilised American would turn
down the chance to go to services.  You can imagine his reaction when he
found out that his bunkmate was a Muslim.

At first he refused to speak with us, shnning us as sinners.  After a few
weeks of very hard work, he began to see us not as Godless heathens, but as
fellow soldiers.

This will happen in the Imperium also.. Isolated, under pressure, and trying
to learn all they need to know, trainees won't have the time or energy to hate.

>I suspect that they'd have a short and painful way with anybody who
>tried to practice (unaproved) prejudices. And anyone that came from a
>culture so inflexible that they couldn't learn wouldn't be hired in
>the first place.

A simple discharge will sufice.

They probably wouldn't bother to enlist in the first place.  You'd be amazed
at the number of flag-waving, "patriots" I encounter who never considered
military service for the simple reason that they let (insert group) in.

>In fact, the universal gender tolerance in Imperial society could well
>be a product of the "culture" of the Imperial militaries.

The Imperial Navy and Marines will be the "melting pot" for the Imperium,
with members drawn from all the 11,000 worlds.  *These* will be the
"Citizens of the Imperium".. those who've risen above their provincial view
of themselves as Lunionites or Reginians.

>>And you definitely *don't* want to mix troops from a hot, dry "desert"
>>world with ones from a cool, wet world. They won't be able to sleep in
>>each others barracks due to temp and humidity problems. They may be
>>acutely uncomfortable just passing thru each other's bunkrooms in a
>>troop ship!
>
>Again, I think that the Imperium would let the recruit adjust to a
>standard temperature during the first year. If her can't cut it, they
>cut him.

Considering my first day in Basic Training (90F, 85% humidity at 0430), I
doubt the Imperium is going to lose much sleep over the discomfort of its'
trainees.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:11:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hello fellow Travellers

At 01:00 PM 4/24/97 -0500, Kevin Scardino wrote:

>I'm new to the list and was wondering if there any traveller web pages out
>there.
>I would like to make a list the the known one and establish them on my web
>page.  

Well, you can start with mine:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/jumpgate.html

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:35:52 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Gun damage

> Just out of curiousity, what type of ballistic weapon would be
> required to "blow your right limb off"?  How much kinetic energy are
> we talking about?  I really need to know the answer to this one :)

	Ok. I just checked my old research papers...

	The first research project I was involved in was "Small
	high-velocity projectile's effect on living tissue", and
	I have seen more than enough shredded limbs. _Not_ a nice
	sight.

	Since humans are inhomogeneous unidentical mobile targets,
	it is very difficult to estimate how much damage a given
	projectile hit will cause. However, some estimates can be
	made by examining sufficiently large number of wounded
	persons.

	A direct bone hit with a bullet fired from a modern assault
	rifle will usually shatter the bone to shrapnel. In the case
	of a limb hit the resulting damage can be so severe that the
	limb cannot be saved, and must be amputated. However it is
	not very likely that the limb would be completely blown off,
	since skin, sinews and clothing may keep the limb attached
	to the body.

	The muzzle energy of a "modern assault rifle" is roughly:

	5.45x39mm (AK-74): ~1.5 kJ
	5.56x45mm (M16, G33): ~1.6 kJ
	7.62x39mm (AK-47, M92): ~2.3 - 2.6 kJ
	7.62x51mm (M14, G3): ~3 kJ

	Short-range hit with a shotgun (12 gauge, 70mm shell,
	number 4 buckshot) can rip off a limb, since most of the
	kinetic energy of pellets is transferred to the target,
	and multiple pellet hits will shred skin and clothing.

	The total kinetic energy of all pellets is around 2 kJ.

	(... and remember, do not do this at home!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:21:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns

> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:58:23 -0800
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> 
> WARNING Severe Munchkinism Follows Read At Your Own Risk !
> 
> The true Traveller munchkin (in Milleau 1100) will design a hand held
> Meson weapon so as not to insure that their oponents do not try & take
> advantage of that pesky thing called armor.
[Excellent and funny design discussion snipped]

Man, did this bring back memories!  In a Champions campaign way back when,
my character was a mad-scientist inventor type; my shtick was always
having new gizmos in every game, some of which worked, some of which
failed spectacularly.  It was a blast to role-play.

But his crowning achievement was the back-pack meson gun (borrowed from
Traveller's ship-sized MGs).  This was an incredibly powerful weapon, but
horrifyingly inaccurate -- in character, I was always promising that I'd
fixed the latter problem. :)  It also took between one and three combat
rounds to warm up for a shot, during which time it made a loud and
distinctive warbling whine.  Thus, it was not all that useful a
weapon...but when I *did* decide to use it, the joy in having every foe
*and* friend in the battle suddenly go white with panic and dive for cover
was breathtaking. :)

Also, I installed a safety override (after a bad experience I'm sure you
can all picture) that put the absolute closest possible blast point, even
given worst-case inaccuracy, at least 20 meters away from me.  Once people
figured this out, that first keening whine would cause everyone in the
battle -- again, friend and foe alike -- to run directly *toward* me at
top speed.  This again lessened the thing's utility, but was way amusing.

Anyway, sorry for the off-topicness...but perhaps something similar might
fit into a light-hearted Trav campaign somewhere.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:32:34 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

All I can remember about the rosette is the phrase "Tireen, in the Vargr
Extents."

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: April THUDDD, SSDS & QSDS

> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:16:01 -0400
> From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
> 
[snip]
> Some people think that G Tanks give an
> addition 1G on top of every thing else and maybe this is what SSDS and FF&S2
> should do.

That's my understanding of the issue.  Otherwise, as you point out,
g-tanks would be rather worthless.

> Max Acceleration:  It seems that in QSDS there is no mention of acceleration
> being limited by Grav Compensation.

QSDS hulls are rated by acceleration.  The hull itself incorporates both
structural bracing and grav compensation sufficient for the rated
acceleration level, along with life support, cargo doors, airlocks, and so
forth.

On your mass vs. acceleration issues (a forceful argument...?), it's
always been the case that tying acceleration to volume was a kludge, pure
and simple.  Unfortunately, tying acceleration to mass instead requires
iterative design approaches, and it's very difficult to hit a nice round
whole-number G rating the way we all like it.  QSDS sidesteps this issue
by providing only lightly-armored hulls; as you say, SSDS should require
the FF&S 15.5 tonne/dt check, and require iterative recalculation if it's
exceeded.  Otherwise SSDS can produce ludicrously agile heavily-armored
ships.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:06:56 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hello fellow Travellers

Kevin Scardino <kjscar@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I'm new to the list and was wondering if there any traveller web pages out
> there.
> I would like to make a list the the known one and establish them on my web
> page.  
> 
> Thanks for any help.

I recommend that you try the Traveller Web Ring.  There are two good place to
start, either Goran Damberg's "Traveller - the web pages"
(http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/) which is the first link in the
ring, or the Imperium Games page (http://www.imperiumgames.com).  As you make
you way around the Trav Web Ring you'll find dozens of other Traveller page,
many of these already have very good Traveller links lists.

Chris Cox
"Lets hang ten for justice" the Talking Tourist Tick
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:30:04 +0100
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Who we are?

Hello, sorry if this reaches well down the line of these
posts but only got to my 
computer today for the first time in ages( well about 4
days!)....400+ mail messages.

Str  : B
Dex: 6 (A: with rugby ball)
End : 9
Int : A
Edu: 9
Soc :6
 Age 28, Scientist/Technician : 1 term, Army
(Communications) 1.5 terms; 
 College Dropout (0.5 terms)

Technical (Commo)-3, Computer -3, Ground Vehicle-2, Combat
Rifleman-1 (some may say -0  :-)  )
Linguistics-2(French, German, Latin, ),0 (Nepalese) ,
Electronics-2, Science(Chemical)-1.
Leader -(-5), JOT-1. (and don't forget Carousing-6!!!! &
Sports(Rugby(League))-3)

Made the worst mistake in my life, & joined the Army, (
Royal Signals)..Didn't like it but stuck out my contract
and lasted the 6 years I'd signed on for....
'Real' Traveller is my main Sci-fi game love, as I'm quite
a large chap, and the thought of tight corridors in
starships like in 2300 really gets me
claustrophobic...hence I bought it and gave it away!!!


Have been playing Traveller for 12 years (starting with
CT's LBB's) along with AD&D (had to do some gaming when
no-one was keen on playing traveller..ie the early army
days) and had plenty of time to study up on my MT.

Regularly gaming now with a group every Saturday eve using
William Connor's Psionic Knights series TD14-17, (well
actually that plot's long gone now..and its getting more
and more intriguing.)
I am quite happy with my MT rules for now, especially after
the work I put in fixing them, and as I always say..'if it
ain't broke...don't fix it'...so I probably use them 'til
my dying day.
My only gripe was, I don't like the Starship combat system,
so I generally  just 'wing it' and roleplay the combat,
letting the characters use their skills to get them out of
situations...just like in the other parts of the game...

I have a lovely wife (and best friend), Dorothy, to whom I
have been married for 3 years..She is really understanding
about this 'Traveller thingie...' but as yet havent been
able to persuade her to join in.
(got to mention my Cocker Spaniel..'Stevie' as well)

Work wise..I am currently working as IT assistant manager
(reads..Person who knows how to use the MS Answer Wizards)
for a Tyre Wholesalers....normally gets an eyebrow raised
when I tell people I work in rubber...
I have done some work on an excel trading spreadsheet. and
generally enjoy tweaking around with my Imperial worlds MS
Access database in my spare time. And am also a XFiles and
Millenium addict, and 
have always been a Monty Python freak!

If anybody shares my other hobby......SEE YOU ON
3/5/97....Come on you SAINTS.


well enough about me ,.....NEXT



Del Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:51:15 -0400
From: "Bill Beane" <concord-tech@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

The world/system is Tireen (Knaeleng 2910).....

It is a rosette of five worlds.....

The Knaeleng sector is the second sector coreward of The Windhorn sector
which is directly coreward of Vland sector.....



Bill

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:31:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Russell <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Detectors

> 
> The x-ray flux is far more dangerous to your ship, and to your sensors.
> It could also cause early detonation of *any* missiles within a certain
> range, including the ones you are firing!
> 
Or worse, the one's you haven't yet fired, or loaded!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:36:16 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

Sooo, where can I get Brilliant Lances?  If it's not being sold, are there
any starship combat systems being sold that are worth buying?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:26:16 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Superconductor Storage Rings

Some of you physics majors might be able to answer
a question that I have concerning the amount of current
and power that a superconducting ring can hold.

	What would be the amount of power (joules) that
	a superconducting ring with an average circumference
	of 20cm and a cross-sectional area of 1cm^2 be if 
	the current density was 1MegaAmp/cm^2 ?

Other questions:
	1) Since the induction coils used to store current
	   in the ring work in either ac or dc modes, which
	   would be preferable?
		- Never mind, just figured out that if you use
		  an ac signal your current flow reverses 
		  itself at say 60hz (United States standard
		  for ac power).  This would result in a short
              circuit condition within your charging 
		  equipment (?)

	2) Storing current in the ring should be easy assuming
	   that dc current works well, but when you are tapping 
         current off the ring with the induction coil(s) how 
         do you limit and regulate the voltage without blowing
	   the regulator due to an over-voltage on the input?

	

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:39:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Russell <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> > Careful, or we'll bring up things like the Ontario government (any old one,
> > I don't care :) ) or even the movie _Canadian Bacon_.  Of course you could
> > bring up _Roger & Me_ and its sequel _Pets or Meat_...
> 
> Well, I guess we could also bring up the October Crisis of 1970. If an
> american president were to take away everyone's civil rights, there'd be
> civil war!
> 
Not really, we wouldn't have the right to wage war :)

Or likely the ability, since one of the rights taken away would be the
firearms.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:12:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Separatists

Mike Sellers asks:

>ObTrav:  Anyone ever get their players mixed up with separatists like the
>Quebecois, or even the IRA?  There's gotta be a lot of good adventures there.

Back in London, Ontario, in the mid-1980's, some friends and I played a
number of strange scenarios, using the Traveller system. One of these, run
by a truly eccentric individual named Steve McDonald, took place in and
around Montreal in 1999. The player characters were nationalists who had
given up on the democratic path to a separate Quebec and had taken up arms.
(Please note that, popular American misconceptions to the contrary, in
reality, armed separatist groups such as the FLQ ceased to exist here in
Quebec 'way back in the early 1970's.)

We screamed in horror when Steve described the world of the near future:
disco had come back into style, and we (the revolutionaries) were modishly
decked out in polyester flares, afros, platform shoes and gold chains. I'm
not sure which seemed more unlikely and bizarre - the renewal of armed
separatism or the revival of disco!

Little did we know...

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:59:23 -0500
From: ghost029@juno.com
Subject: Re: Bunks vs. staterooms

I disagree with having staterooms for the enlisted navy personnel. Having
spent eight years a nuclear machinest mate on US nuclear subs, I have
some practical insight in this matter. I have spent 93 day submerged. You
don't need staterooms for the crew. A point that you made about the
gunnery crew not having anything to do during a jump is absolutely
correct, however you will not have much free time. If you have a lot of
free time, most sailors will become bored. A bored sailor is a dangerous
sailor. This is where you get a lot of fights and other problems. A
vessel under way will have training exercises everyday (read drills). You
will have all hands drills, weapon drills, engineering drills and
anything else you can think of. When you have free time, the only thing
you want to do is sleep. You can and will have a highly motivated and
highly trained crew without having staterooms. The berthing compartment
on one of the subs I was on had 93 of us sleeping there.
	
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.
Thomas Harkless
MM1/SS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:48:56 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

Pierre-Louis Constantin wrote:

>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott trolled the list about how
>'separatists=3Dracists'.  This isn't much on the topic of this list,
>but I'd very much like to tell everybody that it isn't true.
[snip]
>A few studies have shown that Quebecois are even more
>open-minded that then rest of Canada!  If there IS some form of
>segretation, it's more likely to be along language lines than
>race/minority lines...  To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
>anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... "  ":)
>
>Ok, back to traveller :)
>

	I'm not, I'm not... Actually, I won't.  While I disagree with
Pierre-Louis and think that I can quite easily convince the rest of the
list that I'm right, I'm sure very few of you would be interested :).

	Suffice to say that I agree whole-heartedly with Pierre-Louis that
studies have shown that on average Qu=E9becois society is very tolerant and
open.  They are quite correct, as I have in the course of 8 years of French
immersion, 10 years of living with my Qu=E9becoise GF and hanging around wit=
h
her family, and taking as many courses in French as possible in Law school.
It is a great place to live; the only downside is that the current
government is an ethnic nationalist party with policies that are IMHO
racist.  If only the PQ would stop treating anglos like
strangers/foreigners, this place would be darn near perfect.

	And I want to say that I was not trolling the list; if I wanted to
start a language-based flamewar, I wouldn't do it where I sleep; there's a
really good one been going on in soc.culture.quebec for ages...

	But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1254
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 25 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1255



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Who we are?
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Rosette
[none]
Re: The FORLORN
The Army vs. The Marines
Re: THUDDD FAQ
RE: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Detectors
Re: Bunks versus Staterooms
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)
Tasks & Ships
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)
Re: April THUDDD, SSDS & QSDS
Re: Ancient Rosette
Re: Molecular edges
Re: Re: All Tech Levels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:44:54 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Who we are?

Mused
885A96, 4 (just started 4th) terms, Age 31
1st Term-military, 1 promotion, no commission
2nd Term-university
3rd term-bureaucrat (rolled survival exactly, laid off)
4th term-bureaucrat
jack-o-t 2, history 2, cbt rifleman 2, computer 1, admin 3, brawling 1, 
liaison 2, survival 1, tactics 1, useless trivia 6

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:45:50 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> Sooo, where can I get Brilliant Lances?  If it's not being sold, are there
> any starship combat systems being sold that are worth buying?

Slag! by Greg Porter

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:40:45 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Rosette

Here's my library entry. I can't remember which source I used, though.

The Ancients were responsible for several major features within what is
now the Empire.  Their warfare resulted in the large proportion of
asteroid belts (e.g. Shionthy/Regina) throughout explored space. There
is evidence they created the multi-world rosette at Tireen/Knaeleng in
the Vargr Extents. Scattered empty cities (most severely damaged by
battle) stand as evidence of their wars; most, however, are restricted
areas under investigation by the Empire and are not open to the public. 
One notable exception is the world Antiquity/Corridor.  The Antiquity
Ancients site is open to tourists; its fascinating museum displays many
wondrous and mystifying artifacts, many of which are still in working
condition.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:38:34 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: [none]

Here is a question for you die hard's:

In the MegaTraveller Player's Handbook, under Advanced Character =
Generation, under Merchant Prince characters it states that if special =
duty is rolled to consult the special duty table. Where is it?? I can =
not find it anywhere in the book. Page numbers anyone?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:37:21 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: The FORLORN

At 11:45 AM 4/24/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>I suspect that another few generations along, unless they work at
>maintaining a separate society, there will be Forlorn living throuought
>the Imperium, distinguished only by names, a few odd holidays, and a
>family history. The 27 will probably still exist as a dusty museum, and
>there will be pockets of old Forlorn living here and there, following the
>'old' ways. 
>
>Sad in a way, though, I like them.

As do I.  
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:13:51 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: The Army vs. The Marines

At 13:57 24/04/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>In my view, the Imperial Army is made up of regiments drawn from member
>worlds.  A planet has its Planetary Defence Force, and the top 10% of the
>combat units get Imperial training and equipment.  These assignments are
>reviewed every decade or so, so the units that hold the coveted posistions
>train hard to keep the edge.

>Brigades and Divisions are assembled on an "as needed" basis.  During an
>invasion of a Zhodani world, for example, the Commanding General might see a
>nned for a Lift Infantry Division, and tag the 17th Caponi Dragoons (Lift
>Infantry), the McCallen Rifles (Lift Infantry), and the 73rd Heavy Tank to
>form the unit.

I've always assumed that the Imperium doesn't have an Army per se, but
'borrowed' units from member planets as needed.

>Recruits from lo-pop worlds are probably out of luck.. for the Army they
>probably travel to a neighbor world and enlist there.  Many kids from these
>backwaters will enlist in the Navy or Marines just to get off the mudball
>they grew up on.

The Army boy would stay on their homeworld, and just be part of a smaller
army (and envy the equipment of bigger armies :). Just like on earth today.
I invisage there being quite a lot of 'lending' and cross training of
troops between neighbour systems.

The Marines OTOH would be Imperial, with only small local Marine Forces
(attached to the System Defence naval force) beloning to the system.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:27:10 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: THUDDD FAQ

>        Something that I'd be interested in seeing is a THUDDD revolving
>around a non-canon ship class.

Agreed. Something I'd like to see are designs from TLs 8 to 11. There are a
lot of other spacefaring cultures out there besides the Third Imperium, and
there should be some designs for their ships. Besides, I think HEPlaR is a
more interesting technology than thrust plates.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:10:16 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: "Deep Space" detection

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC50FE.5FC20F80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[snip]

I ask these questions because of development of my misjump theory, which
states that a certain gravity potential is *required* to exit jumpspace,
which means there *has to be* a (relatively) large gravity well nearby
after a misjump. I wish to know how difficult it would be to find the
rogue comet, planet, or whatever "dark matter" is around in the middle
of an empty hex.

I would have to disagree with your theory, tho' it does tend to increase =
the odds of surviving the standard misjump.

It's always been my understanding that once the J-field decays to a =
certain degree, your ship propagates back into normal space.  The =
J-field also collapses (at least in my game) when the J-field encounters =
a stronger G-field.  The longer the jump, the stronger the J-field is, =
and the more powerful the G-field must be (which is why high jump ships =
can jump past systems without propagating out, but also why a black hole =
will drag a ship out of J-Space).  Towards the end of the jump, again =
the field decays to a degree - to the point where the gravity well at =
100 diameters will cause a ship to propagate out of jump.

(In game terms, this means that a ship jumping to a planet tends to come =
out at 100 diameters +/- 10%.  A ship jumping to empty space had best =
have a very, very good command crew if they need any kind of precision.)

The presence of a strong G-field during the shaping of the initial =
'envelope' - the shape, charge and intensity of your J-field is what =
gives J-vector and direction - will warp that field and cause misjump.=20

A misjump can be anything from early propagation (hopefully not TOO =
early) of the ship, a wild increase in field strength (Long jump), =
erratic vector (wild jump), catastrophic field decay (ship gone) or a =
combination of the above.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:02:42 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Detectors

Hello,
>Visual stealth is easy. Think "flat black paint". While not too
>practical with ships, it's a winner on missiles. So that limits the
>usefulness of a telescope.

  Well, I meant for ships.  I assume missile usage inplies combat
and active sensor uses.  After all the missile must approach to
attack, but a ship can can your mission in a variety of ways.

>> They can't be shielded very easily, and if they're blind, they
>> will miss.
>
>Trouble is, they blind *you* also, and in space, most of the output of
>a nuke is in the x-ray range. In atmosphere, the bige fireball and
>thermal flash (and shockwave) all come from the x-rays being absorbed
>by the air, which then gets heated to incandescence. 

  Yes, but you know when the EMP is going to hit your arrays - the
guidance units for the missiles don't.  And if a given energy density
is a hassle to your (x) cm thick hull, how much lower a density is
a threat to a thin-skinned (but how thin?) missile?
>
>The x-ray flux is far more dangerous to your ship, and to your sensors.
>It could also cause early detonation of *any* missiles within a certain

  Why is the output more dangerous to a ship at x range than a missile
at x range? The second point gets pretty abstract, as it then follows
that particle beams could possibly to used to induce massive fratricide
in the "PD overload" swarms.
...        ...
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:40:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Bunks versus Staterooms

Several list members have been claiming that a starships crew can be
housed in bunks because current earth military forces, including the
ones they serve or served in, use bunks & it seems to work adequately.

I believe that all this says is that _Solomani_ who are established in
Solomani & Aslan as being more accustomed to tight quarters can handle
this level of crowding.  IIRC  Solomani & Aslan says that when designing
deck plans for Solomani crewed starships you may use about 25 % less
space than the norm (this is obviously a lot less of a difference than
the staterooms / bunks difference but goes to show what Solomani culture
is like).  This suggests to me that the Vilani influenced standard
Imperial culture creates a need for a bit more personal space than _we_
are used to.  You might argue that the group centered Vilani culture
might create individuals who require less privacy & personal space but I
believe that it is the rigidity of Vilani culture which requires its
people to have more personal space.  They can't stand to deal with each
other all the time (& need privacy) because it is too much work getting
consensus _all_ the time.

Similarly as technologicaly increases peoples expectations of their
living standard increase.  I believe that this is _the_ primary reason
why the use of bunks for crew is discouraged.  The average TL 11-13
Imperial is going to expect better care & conditions than we TL 8 people
do in exactly the same way that we expect better care & conditions than
our TL 4 forebears did.  Part of these higher standards will include
more privacy & part will consist of the space required to keep them in
the high standards they expect.

In Traveller the size of the army a planet has decreases as its TL
increases.  While much of this decrese is no doubt due to the fact that
they need smaller militarys as each soldier is so effective & partially
due to the fact that military costs seem to increase faster than GDP
does I think that part of the reason is that at higher TL's the
population is more pampered and a lesser percentage of them are willing
to endure the low quality living conditions (their perception _not_
mine) that the military life will offer them.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:07:08 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

>And how many of them have kids?  Suzette's point is a valid one, shared by
>an overwhelming majority of women who have had kids.  Having kids (the
>actual carrying, birthing, nursing, etc.) is one of those life experiences
>that puts your life on an entirely new vector that you just _cannot_
>predict beforehand.  I've seen this happen over and over in both men and
>women who had protested otherwise previously.  It's one of the
>wonderful/scary things about having kids!
>
>Some things can be done better without technology than with.  (Hmmm... with
>this subject and that statement, I can see us heading for "Barbarella" real
>quick. :p )

Having kids is a drug. Whenever you get home to your kid you feel relaxed
and happy for no rational reason (endorphins) and not very focussed on your
job anymore. This could be viewed in some cultures as subversive and
counter productive and therefore forcing you to let society foster your
artificially grown kids. Scary and thus interesting to roleplay. maybe I'll
introduce this into my already Orwellian Ffudn in the Glisten subsector
where each citozen take a law esam each month and if flunking go to jail.
Those allowed to emigrate tend to make good lawyers (if that isn't a
contradiction in terms: can a lawyer by definition be good :)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 16:32:59 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Tasks & Ships

Over the last few weeks a lot of topics have been discussed.
I have a few points I would like to make.

1. Fighters..
	This has been done to death, I know.. First you have to
consider the scales we are talkng about here. The modern 
supercarrier carries between 75 to 100 aircraft. Were a typical
Trav Carrier carries 300 to 500, 10 to 50 ton fighters. I was kinda 
thinking, that if scaled we up the tonnage (as has been discused) we
would see a marked increase in "lethality" of single fighters.
	Though,the ten ton fighters have a great number of uses. 
Fuzzy wuzzy still applies.

2. Military crew accomodations
	A bunk is a lot of room, not singly but in groups. Your
personal space is small, but the left over room adds up quikly. If 
you figure 3m^3 per crew person (I would have killed for this much
room when I was on sea duty) that leaves 11m^3 per person for 
common spaces. Lots of room. As for reacreational space it is where
you make it. (I've already mentioned Aux con, how 'bouts 12 person
D&D game (and traveller on that trip) in a squadrons paint shop)
I do agree Zeros should have staterooms, Ensigns, Lt jgs, Lt, 
small staterooms or shared large staterooms (shared being the most
likely of the two) Lt cmdrs and above have their own staterooms
small or large depending how tight you are for space. Capts+ have 
their own Large stateroom and a office if there is room.
	As for one comment I've seen and heard way too often is
that in surface ships you can go out on deck to see the sky. Nope
the line seemed to remeber is "get the hell back where you belong"
Being on deck is not the safes place to be, esp. a Flight deck.

3. Sexual preferance
	Huh? why is this a discussion? So what if Norris is gay?
Unless your campaign is very childish this does not matter
people are the same no matter their preferance... Except maybe if
you are Bi, then it is easier to get a date 8-).

4. Heresy (tasks using funny dice)
	I have been expermenting with a 2d10 system for about 4 
years now. Using CT 8+ as a base and stealing from there. (gurps,
hero and TNE mostly) Have been playing with a damage system
based on AHL and T4 pen values that seems to work on paper, we'll
she survives the smoke test.
	Since the horsemen have been taken, can I be the "Holder 
of the crooked dice of fate". (or some thing like that)

5. More ship stuff..
	To the brave young ladd who expressed  a desire for a
shrinking of the size of warships. Bravo, I have always thougt
that most trav ships of the line were way to big. But, given 
the CT 1 turret per 100 tons I can see how this happened. It's
not that I didn't like the smiling Pac-man of death Tigress,
or the Battlestar Plankwell. I think they both can be shrunk 
to something more reasonable. The 60 to 90 kton range. Maybe 
it is the fact that I have used the AHL as a battle ship in 
to many of my games..

6. Background
	Well, what can I say, as most of guessed I'm a former
Boatswain's Mate (Deckape and proud of it). Received training
for the Brown water navy, so I was promptly sent to the carrier
fleet, miltary logic at its best. I also have 80% of a tech 
Theatre degree with a good start on a minor in astronomy (I
know weird). Currently, meaning the last 3 years or so, I have
been working Casino security. And working or a degree in Gaming
(Casino), Hey, I live in Nevada. Oh, not to mention my ongoing 
expermentation in genetics, 19 month old toddling son.. 8-)

Evyn.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:50:26 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

>Sooo, where can I get Brilliant Lances?  If it's not being sold, are there
>any starship combat systems being sold that are worth buying?
>
Get Battle Rider.
By far the most Traveller like space combat game I've ever seen (meaning
that it feels like what I envisioned large spca battles as way back in the
CT timeframe).
Brilliant Lances feels like Twilight2000 in space: lots of overly
complicated hitlocation/damage and no fun. Movement ripped off from SPI
DeltaVee instead of their own Mayday (maybe they'd already sold
Triplanetary to Steve Jackson and were unable to use it at the time, in BR
designer notes the designer refuses to talk about why that particula stupid
system was used in BL)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:55:23 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: A New Question (Starship Combat)

>Mike Sellers wrote:
>>
>> Sooo, where can I get Brilliant Lances?  If it's not being sold, are there
>> any starship combat systems being sold that are worth buying?
>
>Slag! by Greg Porter

Slag is a bit like Sky Galleons of mars and no space feeling at all (sorry
Greg), its cheap though. There was a series of games from Task Force games
that resembles it a lot (not the Trek ripoff, the other one).
I bought it, read it through and gave it to my daughter as a space combat
system for her TWERPS games (she's only 3 years old so she'll have to
settle for fairly simple RPGs).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:03:17 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

>The wide and weird varieties of what can happen in fire combat have turned
>me off to so-called "ultra-realistic" combat systems.  If you try to model
>everything, the game slows down to an unplayable crawl.

Not neccessarily. The most important thing when designing systems is
throwing away any old rpg/wargame garbage that have accumulated for
historical reasons:
hit points, choice between called shots/random hitlocations etc and then
sit down as far from RPG books as possible and write down what you'd want
to model in the system: split second actions AND lung lulls when nobody is
doing anything, fear of getting shot at ALWAYS affecting everybody
including PCs etc.
Then you design it from scratch without looking at older systems. My quest
for now is trying to come up with a double-blind-like system for two
players with personal combat. Any ideas?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:10:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pregnancy in the Imperium (High Tech)

>Is it a given that as technology increases, women will choose to not
>carry them? I can't believe it.  I was adopted. I *know* that there
>is no difference in the mother/daughter bond, but I wouldn't have
>traded my pregnancies and births merely because it was convenient or
>easier.

The argument that women will choose not to carry when technology will
enable them not to is perhaps similar to the notion that people will stop
running when cars are invented (ever seen the New York marathon?).

"It take so much time and is so painful to run longer distances that it is
reasonable to assume that whenever cars are owned by everyone running will
be a dead artform." (and then Dr Lucas Pontifex climbed down from his
podium at the Solar Geographic Societys gathering, year 1889).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:10:05 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: April THUDDD, SSDS & QSDS

Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net wrote:
> > From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
> > Some people think that G Tanks give an
> > addition 1G on top of every thing else and maybe this is what SSDS and
FF&S2
> > should do.
> 
> That's my understanding of the issue.  Otherwise, as you point out,
> g-tanks would be rather worthless.

Actually the FF&S is written they would still be usefull at TL-8-9 where they
are the only option for compensating Gs.  But maybe G Tanks should just be
+1G at all Tech Levels.

> QSDS hulls are rated by acceleration.  The hull itself incorporates both
> structural bracing and grav compensation sufficient for the rated
> acceleration level, along with life support, cargo doors, airlocks, and so
> forth.

Doh (slapping myself on the forehead), your right.  However, QSDS allows 6G
ships at TL-10 and up while using SSDS your limited to 3/2Gs
(accelerating/evading) for crews strapped into workstations at TL-10, 4/3Gs
at TL-11 and 5/4Gs at the Imperium's TL-12.

> On your mass vs. acceleration issues (a forceful argument...?)
<snipage>

We're in perfect agreement here.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:56:31 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosette

- -> You should check
- -> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061/ancients.html there's a
- -> system with a rosette described there. Though it doesn't say anything
- -> more about it than that it's in the Knaeleng subsector.
Yes i have a limited amount (very limited) of info there. I think 
it's from the Imperial Encyclopedia!

BTW: I always need new info about official or non official ancients 
sites anywhere in known space. If you have anything that is not 
listed in there, or invented something yourself, mail the info to  
me, as i am trying to make this list as complete as possible!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:52:39 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Molecular edges

Ooooh, soapbox time.

> Looking for information on how molecular edges (i.e. an edge one or a
> few molecules thick) might work in Traveller - specifically on a
> cutlass.

> What element(s) would be used and how would the edge be attached?
> Carbon-carbon bond strengths look pretty promising.

More importantly, the diamond structure may be rigid enough not to 
spontaneously restructure itself to a blunter ( = less surface area) 
shaped edge.  Most metals - AFAIK all metals - would do so, if not 
spontaneously then certainly if banged somewhat.  Which is not 
entirely happy for a sword blade.

\begin{soapbox}
This atomic rearrangement to minimise surface to volume ratio is why 
I'm extremely sceptical about nanotechnology in its more extreme 
manifestations.  Maybe if you kept things very cool, used heavy atoms 
to minimise quantum effects and kept foreign atoms well away you 
could put together a Babbage engine which worked OK, but molecular 
fabrication plants would be out of the question.

Micron or 0.1 micron scales, on the other hand, maybe not...
\end{soapbox}

Diamond, of course, is somewhat brittle, but I think (metal-seeded?) 
diamond is probably your best bet for sword edges of this sort.

The sharper something is, the more easily it loses its edge (to 
become less sharp) and this would apply to molecular edges in 
particular, since the loss or displacement of one atom affects 
sharpness rather a lot.

> Could the bond strengths be increased by applying an electrical
> current? If so, this could open the field to a lot of other elements. 
> This could translate into a sort of light-saber effect.

Well, if you believe in bonded superdense matter (TL 14) then yes - 
and that stuff would make a very nasty sword.

Incidentally, since it requires power, how come there's never been a 
power requirement for hulls made of it in MT/T4?

Otherwise, probably not, IMHO.

> What happens at the atomic level as the molecular edge contacts a
> surface or is parried by another molecular edge?  Will it necessarily
> glide through anything, or would it's cutting ability be dependent on
> the bond strengths of the resisting surface?

The edge will cut through an awful lot, being slowed by accretion of 
atoms to its leading edge (decreasing its sharpness) and by the 
energy of the blow being converted to heat as it breaks the molecular 
bonds.  Even axes cutting along the grain of wood slow down 
eventually, although it's a lot more effective than cutting across 
it.  Conventional swords would be like cutting across the grain, 
supersharp ones like cutting along it.

Once it stops, however, there's a very real risk that the material 
will have bonded together again around it.  Molecular or fibrous 
materials like wood or kevlar and ceramics wouldn't (though the cut 
would be quite difficult to remove the sword from, since it would be 
the *exact* width of the sword) but a metal would form bonds to the 
sword as it stops!

It's like the way you can cut into a block of ice with a wire, stop 
pressing down on the wire, and find the ice has re-frozen around it.

What I'm saying is that the sword would work spectacularly well - 
once.  Maybe more times if you don't have to cut through too much 
metal.  You might well do better to make a superdense sword, sharpen 
it, and concentrate on making people unhappy with it.

If two supersharp blades meet, they will almost certainly cut each 
other in two for a strong contact (like parrying cutlasses) or cut 
into each other and become entangled for a weak or glancing contact 
(fencing foils).

Also, the rather efficient conversion of sword's KE (which, 
ObThrusters, is scalar and not conserved) into cutting means that 
very little of it goes into slowing the target down.  So they (and 
their blow) just keep coming, in one piece or several...

Nick


Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:42:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re: All Tech Levels

In mail you write:

> In MegaTraveller, the stated tech levels represented achievement tech levels:
> the highest technology available on that world.  It may be imported, and
> common tech might well be several levels below.

Then any world with a starport has to be TL-10 or so. Ain't what happens.
It has to be *local* tech, otherwise the starport type wouldn't
*modify* the TL, it'd set a *minimum*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1255
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 25 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1256



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re: Superconductor Storage Rings
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Holes in Traveller consistency
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Starship Combat
Precious materials
Some techincal questions
Re: Quebecois
Re: Re: Marc's new task system
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Large Rosettas (was Re: Ancient Rosettes)
Re: Some techincal questions
conservations
Re: Tasks & Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:41:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

In mail you write:

>   Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I know that 
> there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four or 
> five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that is 
> somewhere in the Vargr Extents.

In the CT Droyne module on page 5 it says that there is a 5 world
rosette at "Tireen (in the Vargr Extents)". It also mentions an
unfinished ringworld in the "Leenitakot system of the Hinterworlds".

The rosette worlds all have a UWP of: ?484???-?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:11:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Superconductor Storage Rings

In mail you write:

> Some of you physics majors might be able to answer
> a question that I have concerning the amount of current
> and power that a superconducting ring can hold.
>
>         What would be the amount of power (joules) that
>         a superconducting ring with an average circumference
>         of 20cm and a cross-sectional area of 1cm^2 be if 
>         the current density was 1MegaAmp/cm^2 ?

We need to know what *voltage* too. :-)

Seriously, there are *three* limits on superconductors:
1. max temp
2. max current density
3. max magnetic flux density

Since current flow generates a magnetic field, these are not
independent figures.

BTW, you are storing *energy* (joules), not power (watts).


Other problems are that the magnetic field causes the ring to try to
expand. So there's a limit based on the tensile strength of the ring,
and if you try encasing it in something, then the limit is the
*compressive* strength of the ring (as it'll be *pushing* against the
supports). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:56:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

In mail you write:

>> Well, I guess we could also bring up the October Crisis of 1970. If an
>> american president were to take away everyone's civil rights, there'd be
>> civil war!
>> 
> Not really, we wouldn't have the right to wage war :)
>
> Or likely the ability, since one of the rights taken away would be the
> firearms.

Don't count on that. Even *I* know enought to make simple firearms from
commonly available materials (sulfur for the black powder is the hard
part, and even *it* can be obtained in not so obvious ways). Some
friends can build modern weapons out of raw metal stock. And I know a
lot of folks that have weapons that don't officially exist. :-)

That's a consideration for Traveller players. Consider the ones who are
foolish enough to believe the law level restrictions and don't realize
that the local *criminal* element has weapons several levels above
those that are legal. :-)

To quote an old line... "It's *bad* news when you find that you've
brought a knife to a gunfight..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:04:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Holes in Traveller consistency

In mail you write:

> So that's your distance formula as a function of time:
> d(t) = 2/3 * sqrt(2Pt^3/M)
>
> *Real* mathematicians will, I'm sure, tell me if I've made an error. ;-)
>
> So, to use your example:
>
> d^2 = 4/9 * 2 Pt^3/M
> 9/8 * d^2 * M/P = t^3
>
> 100 dia= 1,120,000 km
> 1.12e9 = distance
> 1e5=100,000=m (100 tons)
> 1e8=100,000,000=p (100 MW)
>
> 9/8 * (1.12e9)^2 * 1e5/1e8 = t^3
> 9/8e3 * 1.2544e18 = t^3
> t^3 = 1.41e15 
> t =~ 11200 s ~ 31 hr
>
> Does that sound about right, Leonard? I'm not so sure that it meets the 
> requirement of being a short enough time... maybe we need to pump more 
> power into those Thrusters?

Actually, that doesn't sound half bad. It means that the "push on the
planet/star" drive is actually *usable*!

Since the time varies as (1/P)^(1/3), doubling the power drops the time
to about 25 hours, tripling drops to 22 hr, and quadrupling to 20.

But it does strike me as the sort of thing a merchant would use.
Especially given that it only takes 7 hours to get to 10 diameters.
This explains *why* jumping a bit early occurs. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:46:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

In mail you write:

>>Solomani: so what if you're gay? Now, sex with a Vilani, *that's* sick!
>
> Hm, I'd have thought that some segments of Solomani society would
> disapprove strongly -- things that might distract from breeding the Master
> Race in quantities large enough to conquer the universe being intrinsically
> *wrong*.

Not necessarily. Remember, we have examples of *real* societies where
men had sex with women to produse kids, and with other men for
pleasure/love (and some of the women doing likewise). 

So it could be that as long as you do your "Duty to the Race", what you
do for recreation is ignored. Heck, if you don't care about *which*
person of the opposite sex is paired with you for kids, you can add
more diversity to the gene pool than the types that insist on having
the same partner all the time!

>>Zhodani: either perfectly acceptable, or stamped out immediately - I haven't
>>decided yet.
>
> Maybe different degrees of acceptability depending on one's social class?
> Unhealthy for the proles, fine for the nobles?  (Or vice versa?)

More likely they'd not distinuguish class on this, as they can tell
how they feel. So odds are strongly that it'll either be accepted (as
the feelings are the same as hetero ones), or they'll "help" you
correct your feelings (if they feel that homosexuality is wrong).

Given that they *do* go in for eugenics to at least a small extent, if
they approve of homsexuality, you'd still be expected to have kids. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:26:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

In mail you write:

>>Damara autopsied a guy hit with a .25 that went through a window,
>>bounced off the table (grazing) and hit his chest.  Took off an
>>aorta (bad luck, eh?).

Very! .25 is notoroius for low pen. At least .25 ACP is.

> Last month, we (I'm an RN on a Neurosciences/Neurosurgical unit) 
> had a cabbie who was shot in the head w/ a .32 that basically lodged 
> in her skull. A quick and (relatively) easy operation, a couple of days
> on the floor for obs, and she's probably out driving her cab again.
>
> I guess that's why we have the spectacular successes and failures :)

Two cases that I've heard of from friends in the medical profession:

1. Guy is stopped at a stoplight, hears string of firecrackers, gets
headache (back of head) and reaches back to find that he is all bloody
back there. Someone had emptied the clip from a .25 auto into the back
of his head!

2. Guy tries to commit suicide by putting the barrel of a .45 auto
pistol into his mouth and pulling the trigger. Muscle spasms in his
finger empty the clip! He *survived*! Seems that it was pointed just
right and all the rounds went *between* the hempispheres of his brain.
Chewed things up around the edges and removed much of the back of his
skull (.32 would have likely bounced around inside....)

I'd say that the first was a failure. The second was *definitely a
*SPECTACULAR* failure. :-)

And there are lots of cases of people dying from truly *trivial*
wounds. Like a shot in a limb, pretty minor. Except that it knocked
loose a small fat globule that got into a vien, thru the heart and
wound up lodging in a critical artery and killing them!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:01:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

In mail you write:

> I realize if this was easy to do every game would have it. Consider it a
> challenge; how do we represent 3D vectors on a hex map simply and
> effectively? Solving this will give Traveller an advantage over all the
> other space games and perhaps form a basis for other games from IG.

Luckily, vectors "decompose" into vectors in each dimension. This also
means that you can keep seperate track of a 2d vector and a 1d altitude
vector and get the same results. 

So, the "easiest" way is to use a Mayday type system, but include
altitude counters. So both the present and future positions have
altitude counters as well as ship counters.

Another method that I've seen involves *two* 2d maps adjecent to each
other (squares or "staggered squares" would work best here). One is the
X-Y plane. The other is the X-Z plane. You have a counter on each map.
You have to think of the map as making a 90 degree bend in the space
between the two maps. 

               Y                                     Z
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+    +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|   |   | * |   |   |   |   | @ |    |   |   |   | * | @ |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
X |   | # |   |   |   |   |   | 0 |  | # |   |   |   | 0 |   |   |   | X
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

* is at (3,3,4)  0 is at (4,8,5)  @ is at (3,8,5)  # is at (4,2,1)

Note that * and 0 are *not* near each other even though they are close
on one map. Ditto for * and #. But @ and 0 are near each other on
*both* maps. The minimum distance between two points is at least the
*max* of the two distances from the two maps!

Note that the counters *have* to be in the same "row" on both maps. 

SPI used this in "BattleFleet Mars". That game also had a display of
the solar system that might be useful to copy for any systems that get
a lot of traffic in your games. Each planet has it's orbit marked as a
circle, and the circle is divided into one day chunks (numbered from 1
to whatever). So every day you move a counter one space on the orbit.
For traveller, you just note which day slot the planets (and moons?)
were in when the players were last there, and then move them the right
number of days the next time they visit. Lets you give them a "real"
system display! It won't work for noticeably eliptical orbits (I'd love
the formulas to figure it for those!) but those aren't common.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:06:23 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Precious materials

I was just wondering something

As TL is high, is there still precious materials which cannot be created
from others? 

I explain : For centuries, many people dreamed to convert lead to gold. We
know that's possible today but the converting prcess is more expensive than
gold itself. In a higher TL, those conversion could be much cheaper. So
cheap that even diamond bottles would be as easy to create as glass bottles.

At high TL we have quite low price energy and quite easy to build small
article accelerator. But also the duclear dampers which controls strong
forces inside a nucleus. with all those technologies. do you think it's
possible it would be cheaper to convert a material from a near by atomic
number marterial than to extract it from the underground or asteroids.

Let's say something like that : Put a amount of metal in a hoven and heat
it to liquid state (or even gaz state why not?) then increase the atomic
number of the particles with a high energy particle acelerator. Then as you
reach the good rate of wanted material, filtrate it with a high speed
rotating filter (mass filtering) then put the result in room at good temp
and presure to have the wanted crystal shapes. The nucelar dampers
technology could help the mass increase by proton or neutron absorbsion.
Some electric and gravitic technologies could help crystal shaping stage.


So... do your characters drink wine in diamond glasses?
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:04:24 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@netins.net>
Subject: Some techincal questions

I've got a few techincal questions that some of you more scientifically
minded people might be able to answer...

1) Am I missing something, or in theory could you point a nuclear damper at
a ship's or vehicle's power plant and stop the power-generating reaction?
Ooops..Mr. Grav Tank's fusion plant has died - it falls like a rock. And
boarding ships would become routine...

...I don't want this to work this way, cause I think it'll screw up a lot
of things...but I'm wondering if there is a "Scientific" reason why it
won't work...

2) Plasma Weapons. The $100,000 question - can plasma weapons be used in a
vacuum (ie space). In Emperor's Arsenal, some of the heavier weapons have
USPs (13-0-0-0, for example). While this weapon isn't a great weapon
(nothing beyound short range)...I think it could be useful for a few
things:

   a) Anti-fighter weaponry.
   b) Fighter weaponry...fighters with high speed can get close and use
these "can-openers" to wreak havoc on larger ships - not to start the
fighter thread again, but I think plasma weapons could give fighters a
better edge.
   c) Plasma torpedos - instead of giving a missile a detonation laser,
give it a one-shot plasma cannon. It won't do as much hits, but it will
drill through armor, and if NDs don't affect fusion plants, they won't
affect these babies.

Plasma weapons in space is something I want to work - here's why:
  a) It's quasi-canon - Classic and Mega Traveller had em - TNE removed
them.
  b) I think they'd be very effective in close-in situations.
  c) I like variety - the more weapons, the better. I personally like to
give some of my races their "signature" weapons...weapons that becuase of
culture or technology, they use a lot (my Aslan don't like missiles, for
example...).

  Just wondering what people think...
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:45:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

> >Roderick Darroch Elliott trolled the list about how
> >'separatists=3Dracists'.  This isn't much on the topic of this list,
> >but I'd very much like to tell everybody that it isn't true.
> 
> 	I'm not, I'm not... Actually, I won't.  While I disagree with
> Pierre-Louis and think that I can quite easily convince the rest of the
> list that I'm right, I'm sure very few of you would be interested :).

DON'T MAKE ME COME IN THERE AND USE THE BIG STICK AGAIN...


<shakes head violently>


oh my god, I'm chanelling Trudeau! 

> 
> 	Suffice to say that I agree whole-heartedly with Pierre-Louis that
> studies have shown that on average Qu=E9becois society is very tolerant and
> open.  They are quite correct, as I have in the course of 8 years of French
> immersion, 10 years of living with my Qu=E9becoise GF and hanging around wit=
> h
> her family, and taking as many courses in French as possible in Law school.
> It is a great place to live; the only downside is that the current
> government is an ethnic nationalist party with policies that are IMHO
> racist.  If only the PQ would stop treating anglos like
> strangers/foreigners, this place would be darn near perfect.

Well, for the longest time I saw separatism as the resurgence of ethnic
nationalism in Canada and in that light, I didn't really like it. I have
no desire to live in the next Yugoslavia, Bosnia or Northern Ireland.
(Though at the same time, I really have no desire to live in Toronto
either, but it's a necessary evil - hating Toronto is another national
passtime. We're such bumpkins at heart).

True Canadian values prevailed (don't complain, lay low, keep quiet,
let's not fuss about it, etc) however, so we're more or less back to the same
point we've always been at. (And didn't anybody notice the 'Montcalm'
patrol cruiser? My next THUDDD design will be the 'Wolfe' (Wolf?)
counter-insurgency vessel...)

OK, ObTrav:

There's probably a lot of regionalism/nationalism in ther Imperium. Hell,
that was the whole basis of MegaTraveller - the splintering of the Imperium
into its component cultures. M0 must be very much the opposite - a lot
of diverse cultures/groups coming together, for the glory of the almighty
god of ECONOMICS, into the Third Imperium.

There will no doubt be some friction going on along the way...

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:28:24 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Marc's new task system

Hi all.

I have recently modified the MT task system for use with T4. I don't like
the more-than-two dice
system and half dice just don't do anything for me at all. ( I don't like
KB v2.0 for much the same
reasons - too many dice ! ).

If anyone is interested, I will post it. It fixes some very old problems
with the MT system and is certainly easier than T4.

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/exeus/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:29:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

At 23:26 24/04/97 PST, you wrote:
>And there are lots of cases of people dying from truly *trivial*
>wounds. Like a shot in a limb, pretty minor. Except that it knocked
>loose a small fat globule that got into a vien, thru the heart and
>wound up lodging in a critical artery and killing them!
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
The best I ever heard of was a guy who got shot in the foot with a .22 and
died. IIRC he expired pretty quickly from shock, probably because he
belived that being shot killed you.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:20:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

pierre-louis constantin sent:

> To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
> anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... " 

That's pretty racist, it suggests she doesn't know any anglophones 
because she doesn't associate with them. That kind of crap has left 3000+ 
people dead in Northern Ireland, where I live, and in other places in the 
world that deserve even more attention, millions dead.

I can't comment too much on the Quebecois/Qubecker situation exect to 
recount this:

My brother was on a holiday in Canada, and crossed over to Quebec from 
Ontario. He popped into a garage to get some munchies, and was refused 
service by the attendant, who muttered something in French to him. He 
then tried in French - and got insulted by the attendant - <In English>
- - for insulting his language. My Brother left the station - a guest in 
your land - with a very bad impression of it.
  
Eamon Watters

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:10:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

Hi ther!
 
	Roderick: Good enough. :)  But I still don't think the PQ is
racist.
 
 
	Now, if anyone WANTS to create a Solomani faction named 'Les
Quebecois' I'd be happy to help. :)  I'd do something like a
progressive, high-tech society who has a strong attachment to the
land (either the one of its origin or some planet somewhere), who
takes great pride in its own culture and ways of doing things (we
tend to boo and hiss and american TV, but heck, we watch it anyways
:) and I guess who entertains strong relations with the Aslans, who
probably consider the 'Quebecois' to be very honorable, but a bit
wimpy when it comes to actual battle... :)
 
	I guess it wouldn't be too hard to see why the Solomani Party
would be displeased with this group.  On the other hand, a true
'terrorist group' or 'militia' is hard to imagine here.  There have
been only 2 or 3 real terrorist acts in the last 50 years and they're
usually the work of small groups of 2 or 3 people.
 
	Preferred methods of 'terrorism' would be Computer Hacking,
Propaganda (Celine Dion clones, anyone? :), or probably small
independant devices (killer bots at the most extreme).  There are
very few true fanatics here - but there are idiots everywhere, right?
So I guess suicide raids would be out of the question.
 
	Note that currently Quebec has NO army per se - all we have
are reserve units and special units.  It might be different if you
create a society that is independent of the Solomani Party.
 
	Not that leaves motives:  The main one would be
'independance', which basically mean that the group would like to
rule over its own land, planet, or such.  Freedom to pass their own
laws, taxation, protect their own culture, etc. Usually the group
resorts to democratic, political means to reach their goals,
sometimes economical levers, but very rarely violent means.
 
	So... Let's think up a scenario real quick... (note that this
is all improvised and any resemblance to real life is pure
coincidence :)  Say the group has heard of a wonderful opportunity to
aquire land on a wet planet.   The player characters could be some
agents sent to sell hydroelectricity contracts in exchange for the
land where the hydro centrals will be installed or whatever.  Of
course the poor natives might need some convincing... But can you
believe ALL their coal mines have collapsed recently, causing a major
power crisis?
 
	I hope someone finds this useful... and that I haven't hurt
any other Quebecois' feelings :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:10:44 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Large Rosettas (was Re: Ancient Rosettes)

I'm designing a little curve ball for the rosetta concept, a quinary (5
stars) system where the stars themselves are set in a rosetta, all G type
far companions with 14 worlds.

Perhaps this may be a little extreme for some, but a rosetta of gas giants
may be an idea. The availability of fuel in these systems would make them
extremely valuable systems.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:10:41 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

>I've got a few techincal questions that some of you more scientifically
>minded people might be able to answer...
>
>1) Am I missing something, or in theory could you point a nuclear damper at
>a ship's or vehicle's power plant and stop the power-generating reaction?
>Ooops..Mr. Grav Tank's fusion plant has died - it falls like a rock. And
>boarding ships would become routine...
>
>...I don't want this to work this way, cause I think it'll screw up a lot
>of things...but I'm wondering if there is a "Scientific" reason why it
>won't work...

It likely won't, since the damper is not a beam weapon but an energy field
which surrounds the ship.

>2) Plasma Weapons. The $100,000 question - can plasma weapons be used in a
>vacuum (ie space). In Emperor's Arsenal, some of the heavier weapons have
>USPs (13-0-0-0, for example). While this weapon isn't a great weapon
>(nothing beyound short range)...I think it could be useful for a few
>things:

<Section lazed off with Millaser Model 5>

>Plasma weapons in space is something I want to work - here's why:
>  a) It's quasi-canon - Classic and Mega Traveller had em - TNE removed
>them.
>  b) I think they'd be very effective in close-in situations.
>  c) I like variety - the more weapons, the better. I personally like to
>give some of my races their "signature" weapons...weapons that becuase of
>culture or technology, they use a lot (my Aslan don't like missiles, for
>example...).

The MT Plasma Guns and thier cousins, the Fusion Guns are short range. I
believe only a max range of somewhere around 750,000 km, which for MT combat
is 3 squares (I may have one to many zeroes, but my MT books are not handy
at the moment). My military vessles use them as short range defensive
batteries, suplimenting the repulsors, and leaving the heavy work to bayed
Meson Guns, PA's, and Missiles (and disintegrators at higher tech levels).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:09:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: conservations

   Hi.

>Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:02:14 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>> Kinetic energy is a scalar, not a vector. 

> It's a vector. Consider. I heave a 1000 kg block off the rear end of a
> 1000 kg spacecraft at 1 m/s. In the frame we started in, the initial
> state has a KE of 0. So does the final state. The ship has a KE of +500
> joules. The block has a KE of -500 joules. Total: zero.

   Fact: It's a scalar.  Even if it was a vector, it would not be
   conserved; just redo your own example using 2 m/s instead of 1 m/s
   for the velocity if you don't believe me. Kinetic energy is not
   conserved.  Kinetic energy is not conserved. Kinetic energy is not
   conserved.

> If I wanted to do the trig, I could send *3* equal masses off at mutual
> 120 angles, and still get a total of zero. But I'd have to use complex
> numbers for the KE of two of them.

   You are thinking of momentum, not KE.

> But the *total* KE of ship plus star is always *constant*. You only
> have to make the energy expended equal KE gained in the frame of the
> ship!

   The total momentum is constant; the total KE is not. In fact, it is
   impossible to solve for a general reaction between two masses in
   which both momentum and KE is conserved, unless the two masses are
   relativistic, massless particles.

> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:13:23 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Hmmm, that *can't* be right. Either that, or the starting acceleration
> will kill you...

   A constant power drive, which does not use thrusters, but which
   pushes off a large "stationary" mass like a planet, has infinite
   acceleration at start. For power P and mass M, we get

   	distance: d = sqrt(2P/M) (2/3) t^(3/2)
   	speed: v = sqrt(2P/M) t^(1/2)
   	accleration: a = sqrt(P/M) / t^(1/2)

   which yields infinite acceleration at time t=0. Vehicles with
   constant power which push against the earth (like, say, automobiles)
   get around this problem of initial jolt (which can destroy an engine)
   by using a transaxle to moderate the power reaching the pushing
   mechanism (ie, the wheels).  A good starship pilot will thus have to
   be careful about "working the clutch" when he first takes off, or he
   might kill the engine.

   Obviously, such a drive is a far cry from what MM conceived when he
   first introduced his constant acceleration drives.

   Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:17:40 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Tasks & Ships

 
> Fuzzy wuzzy still applies.
 
Not really.  Fuzzy wuzzy implies that while a given attacker is less
armored and less able to project force, if they get a shot/hit in,
your better armed troops are just as dead.  Fighters in traveller
can't hurt the big ships, so it doesn't apply (IMO).

> 5. More ship stuff..
> 	To the brave young ladd who expressed  a desire for a
> shrinking of the size of warships. Bravo, I have always thougt
> that most trav ships of the line were way to big. But, given 
> the CT 1 turret per 100 tons I can see how this happened. It's
> not that I didn't like the smiling Pac-man of death Tigress,
> or the Battlestar Plankwell. I think they both can be shrunk 
> to something more reasonable. The 60 to 90 kton range. Maybe 
> it is the fact that I have used the AHL as a battle ship in 
> to many of my games..

Actually, traveller ships are rather smaller than I had imagined
them at an earlier point in my life.  Most player sized "ships" are
actually the size of aircraft.

I made some models (1:5000) of traveller ships an they are smaller
than I thought.  Besdies, I like huge ships :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1256
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 25 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1257



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Wanted: UPP Tests
Re: Precious materials
Re:  Handheld Meson Guns ! !
Re: Marc's new task system
Prejudice and Imperial Military (was Re: The clever GM)
Re: IR Masking
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Re: Re: Marc's new task system
My hit at an experience system
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Quebecois
Marc's new task system
RE: Quebecois
Re: Wanted: UPP Tests
Re: Re: Marc's new task system
RE: Quebecois
Tl-12 System Defense Boat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 1997 17:07:02 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Wanted: UPP Tests

Does anyone out there actually have the (possibly) mythical UPP tests?  

If you do, could you please email me a copy.  Thanks.


Robert


PS. These are the tests that convert real-world data to Traveller statistics.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:15:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Precious materials

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> I was just wondering something

Snippage of material synthesis technologies 

> So... do your characters drink wine in diamond glasses?

Likely, yes, but also likely is that _natural_ gemstones will retain value
as gemstones. We see this today. It is readily possible to make synthetic
rubies, emeralds and sapphires of virtually any size, of high clarity, at
relatively little cost.

Natural gemstones of thise types, however, still retain high values. Why?
The perception of rarity and value. If it weren't for the DeBeer's
stranglehold on the diamond market, diamonds would be considerably cheaper
than they are today, since they are quite a bit more common than good gem
quality rubies, sapphires, and emeralds. Gemstones are still prized,
essentially, as objects d'art, and nothing more. Synthetics are rapidly
taking over their roles as industrial materials.

Part of this is due to the craftsmans input into shaping , cutting, and
mounting the stones, but a very real part of their value comes from their
status as natural stones, I have seen this in action at the Tucson gem and
Mineral show (2nd largest such show in the world, millions of dollars of
transactions take place all over.) I have walked into a cheap motel room,
and seen large suitcases FILLED with cut stones lying open on the bed. A
heady sight, indeed.

But to drag it back on topic, I have seen large boules of synthetic
emerald, ruby, etc., and stones cut from them. Todays sysnthetic
techniques make perfect stones...and that's what gives them away. All
natural gemstones have small inclusions, imperfections that mark them as
natural, and are extremely hard or impossible to counterfeit.

Also lesser gem-like materials, such as turquoise, malachite, and opals
also command extremely high prices for quality stones, and are MUCH harder
to synthesize, due to their complex nature.

Gold will probably be of much less value as a 'precious metal' than as an
vital industrial material..

However, the uncomfortable admixture of (essentially) unlimited power, and
fine control over the nucler forces is one of those singularity
events...beyond these things introduction society, warps beyond our
current comprehension, and so some handwaving (nay, an entire hiver
symphony of handwaving!) has to be done to make the Traveller universe not
have these things, like many, many of the other technologies we've
discussed. If you have the ability to make any quantity of any material
you want, many of the assumptions we make about technology, economics, and
society start going way out of canon.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:24:59 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re:  Handheld Meson Guns ! !

>Using Fire Fusion & Steel it is very easy to design a hand held Meson
>gun FGMP style weapon for Battledress troups at TL 15.  The overall

[snip]

>Comment are welcommed.

1) Perfect example of why sometimes ya just gotta break a rule! Beautiful!
2) Those winters *are* awful long up there, aren't they? :)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:02:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Marc's new task system

> Nope, it still suffers the same problems the last one did. Only slightly less.
> 
> Marc, if you can hear me, could you please explain your reasoning for this
> task system, as opposed to say, somthing similar to previous games sytem
> (TNE, MT, other other known systems). Perhaps knowledge of it's fundamental
> idea will enable me to use it in a better way.
> I would like to use the system, but I need something to tell my players.


Bravo Harry!

All of you know that I would like to know as well.  If I could put 
some clear logic behind this choice, I'd probably be able to swallow 
it too.

What I need here is to understand.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:25:03 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Prejudice and Imperial Military (was Re: The clever GM)

[Following quote have bits snipped from between}

>I suspect that they'd have a short and painful way with anybody who
>tried to practice (unaproved) prejudices. And anyone that came from a
>culture so inflexible that they couldn't learn wouldn't be hired in
>the first place.
>
>In fact, the universal gender tolerance in Imperial society could well
>be a product of the "culture" of the Imperial militaries.

>Sure, there are plenty of genuine logistical problems. That's why I
>don't think the Imperial militaries would put up with a lot of
>artificial ones (And they'd propably solve the genuine ones by just not
>hiring people who are too fra from the Imperial norm).

>It would be even better not to hire them in the first place. That way
>you don't have to procure special rations for part of you troops.

>Again, I think that the Imperium would let the recruit adjust to a
>standard temperature during the first year. If her can't cut it, they
>cut him.

I think that this doesn't take into account the draft, though. If they 3I can
"pick and choose" troops that fit the Imp culture, they might not feel a
draft were necessary because they are certainly enough opportunities
for a non-militarily incline player to choose a civilian career, and there
would certainly be enough munchkins <g> wanting to play w/ the 
"real guns" so that the "draft if your recruitment roll fails" doesn't seem
to be necessary. 

Or do you think that this might be yet another use for the "survival
roll"? Not only might it stand for an injury, but it could be the 
character being discharged for simply not fitting the Imperial mold
for tolerance. I like the sound of this, but I think it could only apply
to the first term, as your comments suggest they wouldn't give you
very long to fit in.

Or do you think that might just be included in the enlistment roll in the
first place? They run the background check, see that your beliefs or
environmental demands aren't close enough to standard, and refuse to
take you. Would this cause resentment against the Imperium for that
home planet ("Not good enough for their precious navy, are we?")
Would that cause problems w/ other planets and the more dovish
members who say "How come they can get out of their patriotic
duty, but you take our sons and daughters off to die?"

Personally, I like the idea of "local" units myself (the 14302nd Imperial
Marines of Vesta "The Wombats of Doom"), but this is a neat idea
to kick around, too.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:25:01 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: IR Masking

>Friends, I've had a string of events that has kept me from reading my mail
>for most of a week; at the moment I'm about 20 TML-digests behind.

Same thing happened w/ me, I went away for a mini-holiday w/ the wife and
kid and *BAM* nearly 30 TMLs in my box when I returned. Prolific
little beavers on this list :)

>[In a similar vein, this "heat sink" is only necessary in space (since
>its only purpose is to provide space vehicles with an otherwise non-
>existent heat sink. The implication of the "minimum change" rule is that
>this heat sink dimension would not be accessible on planets (Something to
>do with the curvature of space, no doubt ;-).]

I proposed once before that maybe the hdimension is like the jdimension in 
that one can only use it past 100 diameters (something about that 100 dia-
meter limit that doesn't like dimensional bubbles and helps explain why
we haven't found jdrives and magic heat sinks yet). This won't help the heat
problem for when you're close to a planet, but it helps tie the hdimension into
what is known about the canon universe, and prevents planetary perpetual
motion machine power plants (PPMMPP) <g>.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:09:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

	Howdy!

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, pierre-louis constantin wrote:

>  
> Roderick Darroch Elliott trolled the list about how
> 'separatists=racists'.  This isn't much on the topic of this list,
> but I'd very much like to tell everybody that it isn't true.

	Missed the original discussion.

> 	What Mr. Parizeau meant by the 'minority vote' is a
> well-known fact; all the COFI and other centers of immigrant help
> here are bastions of the federalist powers, who certainly do their
> best to brainwash new citizens...  And that's just the tip of the
> iceberg.

	What Mr. Parizeau "really" meant is NOT a well know fact.  There
is plenty of evidence to posit that his comments about "minority votes"
were reported correctly.  Same thing about his "comments" on
women ( that white Quebecois women were not having enough children, and
thus being "outbred" by immigrants, who of course vote differently).
Also, Quebec has its own immigration officials and centers, and the
process of entering and gaining citizenship in the provence is quite
different from the rest of Canada.  They are a bastion of provincial
support, not "federalist powers"...


 >  > 	A few studies have shown that Quebecois are even more
> open-minded that then rest of Canada!  If there IS some form of
> segretation, it's more likely to be along language lines than
> race/minority lines...  To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
> anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... "  ":)

	I won't touch this one... :)  Your comments about linguistic
segregation is accurate, although which "side" is militant about it is
open to debate.

	Back to Traveller!


	Laterish!

	Ken

- ---

Kenneth J. Winland, M.A.
Department of Anthropology
University of Toronto

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:15:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

 
 Eamon Patrick Watters said:
 
> pierre-louis constantin sent:
>
>> To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
>> anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... " 
>
>That's pretty racist, it suggests she doesn't know any anglophones 
>because she doesn't associate with them. That kind of crap has left 3000+ 
>people dead in Northern Ireland, where I live, and in other places in the 
>world that deserve even more attention, millions dead.

Well, first off you have to understand that I translated that from
the french.  M. Bouchard's mom (he's our prime minister) certainly did
not mean it to be racist... It is quite possible for her to have never
MET an anglophone!  For myself, I've lived in a region that has a lot
of anglophones, one of the highest % in Quebec, and the first time someone
spoke to me in english here, I was 19 years old!!!!  

It's not because you stare at a martian that you're a racist... It might
just be because you've never seen one before.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:37:49 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Marc's new task system

At 10:28 AM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all.
>
>I have recently modified the MT task system for use with T4. I don't like
>the more-than-two dice
>system and half dice just don't do anything for me at all. ( I don't like
>KB v2.0 for much the same
>reasons - too many dice ! ).
>
>If anyone is interested, I will post it. It fixes some very old problems
>with the MT system and is certainly easier than T4.
>
>Andy Brick

I am interested send on, post it. Or you can email it to me it is very large.

Thanks


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:35:11 -0500
From: "Joul, Christopher" <JOUC1@Aerial1.com>
Subject: My hit at an experience system

Hi,

Given all the recent request for an improved experience system, here is
the one I am currently using:-

In order to improve a skill from 1 level to another, the player spends a
number of 'Development' points, then rolls a number of dice below aiming
to get lower than or equal to the number of points spent.  The number of
dice rolled are equal to twice the new skill level (i.e. from 0 to 1
roll 2 dice, from 1 to 2 roll 4 dice etc...).  Irrespective of result
spent experience points are lost.

To match a similar development timescale as character generation, 4 to 6
'development' points should be awarded per awarded per adventure.

This works well with KB v2.0, in that a success instead of raising the
skill level it increases the 'experience level' by one (the number of
dice based on the next higher skill level in a similar manner to
normal).  Since there are 3 experience levels per skill level 12 to 18
'development' points should be awarded per adventure.

I find that this has a number of advantages over the standard experience
system in that it:-

a) Matches the character generation rate of aquiring skills.
b) Makes it hard for characters to develop into hulking skill 8
monsters.
c) Follows a similar process to task resolution (roll dice lower than a
target number)

There is one disadvantage (which I personaly don't mind) is that at
higher skill levels large numbers of dice are required.

Any comments.

Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:59:24 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>Don't count on that. Even *I* know enought to make simple firearms from
>commonly available materials (sulfur for the black powder is the hard
>part, and even *it* can be obtained in not so obvious ways). Some
>friends can build modern weapons out of raw metal stock. And I know a
>lot of folks that have weapons that don't officially exist. :-)

   During WWII, Sten SMGs where being produced in high school metal shops.
Newsreels showed this as part of the British War Effort.

   How corruptable is parts of the Police Force is also a factor.  This 
is were that streetwise skill comes into play. :-)  Studies in the US
have shown that in cities with very high law levels (& very high crime 
levels) obtain upto 20% their firearms from the local Police.  

>That's a consideration for Traveller players. Consider the ones who are
>foolish enough to believe the law level restrictions and don't realize
>that the local *criminal* element has weapons several levels above
>those that are legal. :-)
   Like the movies where the Drug Lords all have Stinger missiles. :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:40:48 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

>	But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).

But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:54:33 -0700
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Marc's new task system

<<<<On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Andy Brick wrote:

Hi all.

I have recently modified the MT task system for use with T4. I don't like
the more-than-two dice
system and half dice just don't do anything for me at all. ( I don't like
KB v2.0 for much the same
reasons - too many dice ! ).

If anyone is interested, I will post it. It fixes some very old problems
with the MT system and is certainly easier than T4.>>>>

Yeah, I'm interested.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:56:22 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Quebecois

Pierre-Louis Constantin wrote:

>	A few studies have shown that Quebecois are even more
>open-minded that then rest of Canada!  If there IS some form of
>segretation, it's more likely to be along language lines than
>race/minority lines...  To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
>anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... "  ":)

	Now I gently kidded with R.D. Elliot about the inappropriateness of his 
post, but I won't be as kind now. KEEP YOUR QUEBECOIS-SEPRATIST CRAP OFF OF 
THE TRAVELLER MAILING LIST!

	Its only with great restraint that I'm able to not take your bait and 
start discussing separation, even though I have deep feelings on the issue. 
I'm sure the rest of the world could care less about Quebec's petty little 
insecurities and problems.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:00:22 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Wanted: UPP Tests

At 05:07 PM 4/25/97 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:
>Does anyone out there actually have the (possibly) mythical UPP tests?  
>
>If you do, could you please email me a copy.  Thanks.
>
>Robert
>
>PS. These are the tests that convert real-world data to Traveller statistics.

If you have them, please post them!  (I've been wondering how people made
up their own UPPs...)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:10:21 +0100 (BST)
From: gentloser@tcp.co.uk (David & Anita Crowhurst)
Subject: Re: Re: Marc's new task system

>I have recently modified the MT task system for use with T4. I don't like
>the more-than-two dice
>system and half dice just don't do anything for me at all. ( I don't like
>KB v2.0 for much the same
>reasons - too many dice ! ).
>If anyone is interested, I will post it. It fixes some very old problems
>with the MT system and is certainly easier than T4.

>Andy Brick

post away andy, i would liketo take a look and i'm sure most of the other
list members would aswell.

regards
gentloser
- ---
Slums may well be breeding-grounds of crime,=20
but middle-class suburbs are incubators of apathy and delirium.

      ****************************************
      **  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~gentloser/  **
      **  Copyright =A9 David Crowhurst 1997  **
      ****************************************=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:24:46 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Quebecois

>	Now, if anyone WANTS to create a Solomani faction named 'Les
>Quebecois' I'd be happy to help. :)  I'd do something like a
>progressive, high-tech society who has a strong attachment to the
>land (either the one of its origin or some planet somewhere), who
>takes great pride in its own culture and ways of doing things (we
>tend to boo and hiss and american TV, but heck, we watch it anyways
>:) and I guess who entertains strong relations with the Aslans, who
>probably consider the 'Quebecois' to be very honorable, but a bit
>wimpy when it comes to actual battle... :)

	Can I suggest a very regressive society whose economy is almost entirely 
based on Solomani Confederation economic policies that favour 'les 
Quebecois' to the detriment of other societies and regions, and that 
although they take great pride in their own culture, no one ever pays any 
attention to it.

>	I guess it wouldn't be too hard to see why the Solomani Party
>would be displeased with this group.  On the other hand, a true
>'terrorist group' or 'militia' is hard to imagine here.  There have
>been only 2 or 3 real terrorist acts in the last 50 years and they're
>usually the work of small groups of 2 or 3 people.

	And of course, the Solomani Party would be just as baffled at Quebec 
separation as Canada is, as the Solomani Confederation is almost as 
decentralized as the Canadian confederation!

>	Not that leaves motives:  The main one would be
>'independance', which basically mean that the group would like to
>rule over its own land, planet, or such.  Freedom to pass their own
>laws, taxation, protect their own culture, etc.

	Of course, all of these things are given in both Canada and the Solomani 
confederation.

>	So... Let's think up a scenario real quick... (note that this
>is all improvised and any resemblance to real life is pure
>coincidence :)  Say the group has heard of a wonderful opportunity to
>aquire land on a wet planet.   The player characters could be some
>agents sent to sell hydroelectricity contracts in exchange for the
>land where the hydro centrals will be installed or whatever.  Of
>course the poor natives might need some convincing... But can you
>believe ALL their coal mines have collapsed recently, causing a major
>power crisis?

	And don't forget the planet Labrador, where Quebec is buying, say, 
antimatter at below cost due to gouging the poor planet Labrador into a 
terrible long-term contract.

	Okay, anyone else tired of this thread yet?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 17:42:22 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Tl-12 System Defense Boat

Hi

I present FFS and T4 stats for this ship. I'll put the FFS data on my
web pages, but I don't have a format for the T4 data, so it would be
wonderful if someone would put up at least the T4 data on their web
page.  If people want to put up the FFS data, that would be great also.
 The more the merrier.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Design Notes
I never thought that the SDB as presented in the TNE rulebook was any
good, so I decided to make up my own version. I used SSDS, with FFS
additions.  It used Heplar to allow TNE fans to use it, and it also
keeps the cost down.  Thruster plates would have added another 100 MCr
to the price.  The Griffen uses the 15 ton rule of thumb in FFS.  If a
ship weighs less than 15 tons per displacment ton, it can use the
10tons of thrust per displacment ton rule.  I had to sacrifice some
armor and weaponry to keep this legal. The write up will assume a
Reformation Coaltion campaign, but if change the names to Sylea or
something else, you can use the ship in a Milieu 0 campaign.

The price from SSDS is 376.184 MCr, while the FFS price is 417.9822.
(SSDS gets a 10% price discount.)

The Griffen has significant more firepower than the TNE SDB.  It is
also over three times the price.  The main cost comes from the improved
sensors. If you assume that SDBs will only be found inside of Gas
Giants or planetary oceans, linked into a huge sensor net, the poor
sensors of the TNE SDB can be justified.  I thought the Griffen should
be capable of performing a wider range of missions.  The other
increased cost is the extra MFDs to control the large number of
missiles.  There are some tradeoffs in the design.  The Griffen has
less armor than the TNE SDB, it also has less fuel available for the Heplar.  

Write up:
The Griffen SDB was developed by Standard Astronics as a replacment for
the Dragon class of SDBs.  It was thought that the Dragons were unable
to fully protect the system against maruders.  The Griffen is upgunned,
it has additional, more powerful laser turrets and an additional
missile barbette.  It also has an improved sensor suite.  The Dragon
was designed for coordinated operation with a planetary sensor net. 
The Griffen was built for this, but also for independent operation.  It
also has room for 10 marines, without forcing the rest of the crew to hot bunk. 

The Griffen was built as a interceptor.  If hostile forces appeared in
system, but didn't assualt the gas giant, then most of the stationary
defenses would be useless.  The Griffen is capable of taking up station
in deep space and waiting for an enemy to appear.  It often does this
near system jump in spots.  Merchants are told to jump into a certain
volume of space. The SDBs can patrol this volume easier than if
merchants come in where ever they want.  Of course Pirates know where
the Merchants will jump into also, but that is what the SDBs are for.  

The inside of the ship is bright and clean.  There is a fair bit of
room for the crew to operate.  There are extra staterooms, either for
ship's troops or to give the crew more room.  The Aubani navy places a
premium on the morale of its sailors.  To help with this, the ship has
an excellent mess.  The ship is too small to carry a full time steward,
but the gunners are used as cooking staff.  The other enlisted crew on
the ship are required to peform kp duty several times a week.  This is
the only way a small ship, can still have freshly cooked meals.  The
other option would be to have several tons of frozen diners in the
cargo bay.  Faced with this option the crew cheerfully pitches in.  
There are also several state of the art entertainment centers for the
crew to relax with.  There is an extensive library of holovids for the
crew to watch.  The crew is also offered incentives to take self paced
computer taught courses.  These courses can be any subject which
intrests the sailor.  Many sailors use these courses to get a start on
a college degree, for a life after the service.  To remind the sailors
of home, there is a large (9m^3) terrarium in the main crew lounge. 
This makes the ship a little less sterile, and also helps out the life
support systems by producing some fresh oxygen.

The ship is a streamlined wedge, and looks much like the standard SDB,
but it has more exterior surface features such as sensors and weapon
turrets.  Twenty percent of the surface is covered with fuel scoops. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------

Griffen SDB

T4 Style Data:
Tons: 400		Volume: 5600m^3	    Cost: 376.184 MCr
Crew: 28		Passengers H/M:0/0	Passengers L:0
Cargo: 28	    Controls:Fib Bridge	Tech Level:12

Size Rating:8 		    Jump Rating:0
Fire Control:4		    G Rating/Manuver Drive:4 (Heplar 98
G-Turns)                                                
                                              1 G Contra Grav
4x95 Mj Light Laser  	Power Plant: 6
3x Hvy Missiles 15(20)  Fuel Rating: 187 (Fusion) /S /R
                        Meson Screen:0
						Sand Caster:0 
						Damper:0
						A:10 P:4 J:2

						Armor:30	Structure Data:14
Notes: Fuel Purifier capable of 280m^3 per hour. Fuel Scoops cover 25%
of the ship allowing it to fill its tanks in 27 minutes. The FPP can
purify a full tank of fuel in just under 9 hours.
40 Missiles are usually stored in the cargo bay, taking up 280 m^3 of
cargo space. (20 tons)

There are no personal manning the turrets, they are controlled from the
bridge, by the MFD operators.  (SSDS doesn't allow for this option, but
it is an option from FFS)

  The normal stateroom arrangment is the 12 senior staff get singles,
the rest of the crew doubles up. Troops or passengers can be carried,
which will force more crew members to double up. 

FFS Style Data:

General Data
 Displacment: 400 tons		Hull Armor: 80
 Length: 55.0 m		    	Volume: 5600 m^3
 Price: MCr	417.9822  		Target Size: S
 Configuration: Wedge SL	Tech Level: 12
 Mass (Loaded/Empty)  5968.53/5371.22 tons.

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 1100MW Fusion Power Plant.  1 year of fuel, 165 m^3
 Jump Performance: Nil
 G-rating:  4 Heplar. 1-G Contra Grav
 G-turns:  98.3 Heplar. 2457.5m^3 of fuel. (176 tons) 25m^3 per G-Turn.
 Maint: 197
 
Electronics
 Computer: 2xTL 12 Fib Comps
 Commo: 2x300,000 km EMS,2x1000AU Maser, 300,00km laser com
 Avionics: TL 10+
 Sensors: 2x300,000km EMS, 120,000km PEMS
 ECM/ECCM: 60,000km EMS Jammer
 Controls: Bridge with 16 WS, and 9 other. Low Automation 

Armament
 Offensive: 3 Missile Barbettes. 15 Missles Ready.   
            4 TL-12 95 Mj Light Laser Turrets. ROF=100
            10:1/8 24-13-7-3
            There is no local control for any of the turrets.
 Defensive: None
 Master Fire Directors: 5 Missle MFDS, 2 Beam MFDS.

Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended.
 Crew 28: 9 Engineers, 7 Gunners, 2 Maintenance, 3 Electronics, 2
Manuver and 4 Command staff. There are enough staterooms for Ship's
Troops to be carried.
 Staterooms:  20 Small Staterooms.  The normal arrangment is the 12
senior staff get singles, the rest of the crew doubles up. Troops or
passengers can be carried, which will force more crew members to double up. 
 Other Facilities: Fuel Purifier capable of 280m^3 per hour. Fuel
Scoops cover 25% of the ship allowing it to fill its tanks in 27 minutes.
 Cargo: 401m^3. 2 Large Cargo Hatch. 40 Missiles are usually stored in
the cargo bay, taking up 280 m^3 of cargo space.
 Small Craft: None
 Air Locks: 4
 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1257
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 25 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1258



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re[2]: Quebecois
Sensors and their Operators
Re: Re[2]: Quebecois
Re: [off topic] Who we are.
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Molecular Edges
Re: IR Masking
TAKE THE TRAVELLER STAT TEST (fwd)
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Handheld Meson Guns !
Re: Quebecois
Re: Bunks versus Staterooms
Re: Tasks & Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:13:08 -0700
From: Danny_M._Moody@mailhost.bridge.com (Danny M. Moody)
Subject: Re[2]: Quebecois

>>       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
>>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
>>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
>
>But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?

Only if ruled by a TED.

- -Vanya

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 17:42:42 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Sensors and their Operators

I see sensors as having 3 basic parts:

1.  The Receiver sub-system picks up signals (of whatever sort). This is
all hardware.  There is little an operator can do to *directly* improve
this function.

2.  The Processor sub-system tries to pull information out of the signal
noise by filtering, changing frequencies or focus of the sensor arrays,
etc.  This is mostly computerized, but an operator should be able to apply
intelligence and experience to improve this function.

3.  The Controller sub-system evaluates the information about
targets trying to identify each target and priorities potential threats. 
This *can* be done by AI software, but here a skilled operator should have
a very positive effect.

My question is just how much effect?  

How much improvement is there in detection range when a skilled sensor
operator is in the loop?

Let's use the following example for our discussion:

Passive sensor system that, on *Automatic*, is able to detect some
standardized object at 900,000 km....say 30 hexes.

A Professional Skill leveled Sensor Operator with an average
Attribute.  Let's say: T4   Skill 3, Attribute 7
                       KB2  Skill 9, Attribute 7

How much effect, if any, does our operator have on detection range?

None?

A few hexes?

Double the range?

More than that?


My initial reaction is to say:  Skill + Attribute + Automatic Range, giving
a range of 40(T4) or 46(KB2).  This seems like a *large* increase, but
maybe it should be large.

Let's look at a possible example:

================================================================
ISS Ajax

Passive Sensor Basic Range: 30      Operator: 16    Enhanced: 46 Size:     
- -8
Stealth:    4
EMM:        8
================================================================

ZSS Jove

Passive Sensor Basic Range: 30      Operator: 10    Enhanced: 40 Size:     
- -8
Stealth:    4
EMM:        8
================================================================

1.  Ajax is 40 hexes from Jove, conducting a Passive Sensor Scan with her
sensor operator working the controls. Ajax is not using EMM.

2.  Jove is 40 hexes from Ajax, conducting *Automatic* Passive Sensor Scan,
no sensor operator working the controls.  Jove is not using EMM.

Task 1
Ajax to detect Jove.  Average Task (3d)
(Ajax Enhanced Sensors) - (Range - Jove_Size + Jove_Stealth)

    Actual numbers: (46) - (40-8+4) = 10 <-- 50% chance of success
    
Task 2
Jove to detect Jove.  Average Task (3d)
(Jove Basic Sensors) - (Range - Ajax_Size + Ajax_Stealth)

    Actual numbers: (30) - (40-8+4) = -6 <-- no chance of success    
    
Thoughts?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:51:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Quebecois

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Danny M. Moody wrote:

> >>       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
> >>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
> >>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
> >
> >But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?
> 
> Only if ruled by a TED.

A _gay_ TED!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:31 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: [off topic] Who we are.

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:50:56 +1000 (EST), you wrote:

> This whole thread is off topic, no?

Actually, it is very helpful.  Knowing about the people no this list
makes debating things far easier.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:36 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:10:41 -0400, you wrote:

> >I've got a few techincal questions that some of you more scientifically
> >minded people might be able to answer...
> >
> >1) Am I missing something, or in theory could you point a nuclear damper at
> >a ship's or vehicle's power plant and stop the power-generating reaction?
> >Ooops..Mr. Grav Tank's fusion plant has died - it falls like a rock. And
> >boarding ships would become routine...
> >
> >...I don't want this to work this way, cause I think it'll screw up a lot
> >of things...but I'm wondering if there is a "Scientific" reason why it
> >won't work...
> 
> It likely won't, since the damper is not a beam weapon but an energy field
> which surrounds the ship.

Depends on the version of Traveller you are playing.  TNE list them as
requiring their very own beam pointer to aim them at incoming
missiles.  T4 list them as components mounted in turrets or batteries.
Both versions indicate that nuclear dampers must be aimed.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:33 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Molecular Edges

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:26:44 -0700, you wrote:

> Looking for information on how molecular edges (i.e. an edge one or a
> few molecules thick) might work in Traveller - specifically on a cutlass. 
> As I recall, one was mentioned in one of Saberhagan's (sp?) berserker
> stories, and we've probably all seen the molecular thumbnail whip from
> Johnny Mnemonic.  Cool effect, but didn't seem plausible.

I hated the depiction of the mono-whip in Johnny Mnemonic.  The only
reason it glowed was to give the audience something to follow.  Yuck.

> My questions are:
> What element(s) would be used and how would the edge be attached? 
> Carbon-carbon bond strengths look pretty promising.

Know what a Buckley Ball is?  Take the two hemispheres and separate
them with multiple rings until the "ball" has stretched into a long
string (a Buckley Tube).

Bonding mono-wire to the leading edge of an edged weapon also asks the
question: What are you bonding it *with*?  I don't think you can bond
it on a molecular level, since doing so would alter the molecular
structure of the Buckley Tube.

> Could the bond strengths be increased by applying an electrical current? 
> If so, this could open the field to a lot of other elements.  This could
> translate into a sort of light-saber effect.

The light-sabre idea works well if you base it on the idea of the
Variable Sword from Ringworld.  Take a spool of mono-wire with a tiny
(5mm) bright red ball at one end and a handle or grip at the other.
Now wrap the whole thing in a small stasis field.  You can flicker the
field to let out more wire to increase the length of the "blade".  The
stasis field is basically skin-tight over the surface of the mono-wire
(and 5mm ball), making the stasis field only slightly larger in
diameter (it doesn't glow, however).

The only problem is that you can't stab with it to pierce anything
that a 5mm point (driven by typical human strength) would normally
penetrate.

> What happens at the atomic level as the molecular edge contacts a
> surface or is parried by another molecular edge?  Will it necessarily glide
> through anything, or would it's cutting ability be dependent on the bond
> strengths of the resisting surface?

Such a weapon would be extremely light, with 99.9% of its mass in the
handle or pummel.  Using one would not be as intuitive as picking up a
baseball bat (it would be like aiming a garden hose/nozzle-- without
the mass of the hose).  The 5mm ball on Ringworld's Variable Sword was
designed to be iridescent to make it easier for the eye to follow when
cutting down trees 30 metres away.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:28 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: IR Masking

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:28:57 -0400, you wrote:

> I think of the opening into this heat dimension as
> analogous to _Flatland_; imagine the ship as a 2D object for a sec, kinda 
> like a deckplan. The jumpspace "bubble" exists around the ship in the 2D 
> plane (in the same way the bubble wraps around the actual 3D ship). The
> "hole" into the "heat dimension" opens out of the page into 3D space, the
> same as the "real" hole opens "out" of the ship into 4D (or 5, 6, 42, whatever)
> space, thus not interacting at all with the jump bubble (which is interacting
> with the j-dimension, not the h-dimension.

But the "heat dimension" bubble *does* interact with the "jump bubble"
on a 3D level-- since both bubbles originate within 3D space.  Since
the idea of both bubbles is to isolate the /3D world/ from either
dimension, they cannot help but interact at the /3D level/.

> >"The 'heat sink' dimension requires heat input to act as a barrier
> >between it and us?"  What is this supposed to mean?  What happens when
> >too little heat is dumped?  A jump field that collapses while in jump
> >is catastrophic (read my description above).  A "heat field" collapse
> >would be equally catastrophic due to the different physics involved
> >(extrapolated from the only Traveller data I have regarding isolating
> >different dimensions).
> 
> I have no problem with the "heat field" critically collapsing if insufficient
> heat is pumped into it; catastrophe if your jdrive fails, catastrophe if your
> pplant fails. Sounds fair. The "heat input as a barrier" was a response to get
> around the problem of the "h-dimension" having to be far colder than our
> space to have effective heat transfer.

Ok.

> >Nowhere in Traveller canon does it state that jump field energy is
> >being "dumped" *into jumpspace* to prevent its incursion.  Since the
> >poster is a Traveller player and did not submit any new facts about
> >his theory (outside of the Traveller universe), I presumed we were
> >both using Traveller canon.
> 
> Which is why the barrier idea came to me. Is there any reason that heat energy
> couldn't be used as a barrier against the h-dimension the way that a jump
> bubble uses <mumble, mumble, handwave> energy against the j-dimension?

A jump drive converts H2 into some form of energy (probably
electrical) that is dumped to the hull grid.  So far, this energy
still exists in the Real World(tm) and must abide by our rules.  The
handwaving doesn't start until /after/ this point.

To maintain your comparison between "j-dimension" and "h-dimension",
your waste heat must be converted into energy before it is dumped to
the heat sink "thingy" (remember, we are still in the Real World(tm)
at this point, and must abide by those rules).  Real World(tm) physics
also state that transforming heat energy into another form is *highly*
inefficient... this is where things get ugly.

> OK, taking a page from the "black swans in England" argument, I
> am postulating a game universe in which a dimension has been found that
> allows heat to be "dumped" (for lack of a better term). This dimension is
> a one-way transfer, and no dimension has (yet) been found that allows 
> heat to be drawn out of it. There, does that cover the bases? Or do I need
> to handwave a few trees whose sap can be used for flame retardant
> undies? :)

That does "cover the bases", but since I cannot enter this world to
interact with it and examine other facts, it becomes impossible to
disprove such a theory (which is what I thought Hans was asking).
 
> >The original post for a dimensional heat sink was triggered by
> >someone's need for true IR masking in outer space.  Ignoring a second
> >dimension or method that could be used to draw heat out of would mean
> >that the original poster just invented the "perpetual motion machine"
> >and broke several conservational laws.  So much for "internal
> >coherence".
> 
> Yes, that point has been raised, and I'm not arguing with it. But the 
> questions were also asked (and not answered): 1) how much energy could
> one derive from such a device and would it be more economical (in
> terms of volume/mass/cost) than existing canon power sources, 2) why 
> is perptual energy in this sense worse than super-efficient solar cells, 
> and 3) in the example of dropping (a very large one) into a star as a 
> weapon, why is that worse than the Star Trigger?

1) I can't answer this one, since my mathematical background is-- by
now-- "weak" at best.

2) One breaks the laws of conservation of energy, which can open up a
whole new can of worms (ie: a fictitious universe is most stable if
handwaving is kept to a minimum).  Solar cells also absorb heat energy
from the local light source, which must be dealt with in some way.

3) The Star Trigger was a one-off thingy obtained beyond TL15.  It has
only had to have been dealt with once in the Traveller universe.
Conversely, allowing such a device at TL10 so that early spacegoers
can get rid of that heat build-up that has been handwaved away could
cause problems (ie: technology is usually developed first as a weapon,
since control isn't as great an issue-- like fission).  Perhaps a few
TLs down the road, the Darrians will figure out a way to make the Star
Trigger small enough to act as a gateway for unwanted heat aboard a
starship (*if* Star Triggers are based upon said technology).

> >Ow.  I detect angst.  Sure would be nice if I had something else to go
> >on, though.
> 
> Methinks you need to take your angst detector in for servicing. :)

Sorry about that.  When you've had a bad day, reading a bunch of email
without smileys tends to make everything appear somewhat cold and
flat.  :(  :P  :)

> >The original poster asked anyone if they could come up with a theory
> >(that wasn't totally far-fetched and based on the Traveller universe)
> >to disprove his proposed existence of a dimension suitable for use as
> >a heat sink for purposes of IR masking (the word "hole" was mentioned
> >at one point).  That's it.  If I am limited to minuscule information
> >such as this, I stand about the same chance disproving his proposal as
> >I would have disproving that the world was "square".
> >
> >I therefore assumed that this wasn't some sort of formal challenge and
> >came up with the casual reply you see at the top.  Since my reply is
> >nearly a week old by now and I haven't seen a reply from the original
> >poster, I suspect that my submission was enough to satisfy him.
> 
> And this isn't a formal challenge either. I'm not looking for acrimony, flames,
> sarcasm, or anything other than a conversation/discussion about the 
> merits of the idea; I've been reading the bios that have been posted, and
> for a bunch of 30 and 40 something professionals, we all (self included) 
> certainly seem to get our knickers in a twist about as often as a bunch of
> 12 year olds on AOL. :) I know the post was old, but I've been enjoying 
> a week off w/ my significant ones (away from email distractions, *ahhh*)
> and as one of the people posting/following the thread, I'd like a few
> additional questions answered, if it pleases the court :)

I actually like the idea of a heat sink dimension, but began to work
on the "against" side after Hans asked someone to try and disprove his
idea.  I'd like to be on the "for" side, but I think we need some more
input so that the use of a dimensional heat sink won't be abused.
Since you propose to base it on a principle similar to jump space, a
bit of handwaving can't really hurt (being built on the foundations of
previous canonical handwaving :)

> After all, it is a little more on topic than the "History of Sexual
> Practices" or
> "This is My Life" threads as of late, as interesting as they may be. :)

I'm still compiling the "resumes" to be reposted in a single file.  I,
too, have been busy :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: TAKE THE TRAVELLER STAT TEST (fwd)

     Enough people have requested this that I thought it might be
worthwhile to forward it to the list.  Ken Whitman originally posted this
late last year, and while it's far from scientific and probably mostly
good as a joke, it's also fun.  So if you haven't seen this before, enjoy;
if you have, don't be too angry with me for re-posting.
     Note, if anyone's curious I made my UPP numbers up on the fly before
I ever saw this system, but upon comparison my guesses seem pretty close
to what my expected performance would have been.

Trent Smith


- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:23:23 -0500
From: Ken Whitman <whitman@pensys.com>
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TAKE THE TRAVELLER STAT TEST

A lot of Traveller Fans have been asking about the Traveller test performed
at GEN CON last year.  So here is your chance to make a character based on
your stats.

STRENGTH
Subject holds an 8-pound barbell in one hand with the arm extended fully,
straight away from the body and parallel to the floor.

        Time    		Score
        0-1 second      	2
        up to 5 seconds 	3
        15 seconds      	4
        30 seconds      	5
        45 seconds      	6
        1 minute        	7
        1 minute 15 seconds     8
        1 minute 30 seconds     9
        2 minutes       	10
        3 minutes       	11
        4 minutes       	12
        5 minutes       	13
        6 minutes       	14
        7 minutes       	15

DEXTERITY
Tester holds a 12" ruler a few inches above subject's hand. Drop the ruler
three times in between the subject's fingers for the subject to catch.
Record the result each time, then ignore the highest and lowest number for
the subject's Dexterity.  Subtract this number from 15.  The result is the
subjects DEX.

ENDURANCE
Subject holds his or her breath.

        Time    		Score
        0-1 second      	2
        up to 5 seconds 	3
        15 seconds      	4
        30 seconds      	5
        45 seconds      	6
        1 minute        	7
        1 minute 15 seconds     8
        1 minute 30 seconds     9
        2 minutes       	10
        3 minutes       	11
        4 minutes       	12
        5 minutes       	13
        6 minutes       	14
        7 minutes       	15

INTELLIGENCE
How sharp and perceptive you are; not necessarily knowing a lot of stuff
(which actually comes closer to Education); mental quickness and
adaptability; using your mind to maximize the current situation.
        The subject's Int score starts at 3. Total point value for each
correct answer to the following questions for final score:

        1.      What is 2+2?
        2.      Without looking, what is the booth behind the subject selling?
        3.      What is the biggest number you can make with three digits?
        4.      What is the next letter in this order: O, T, T, F, F, S, S, E?
        5.      What is your favorite game?
        6.      Who is your favorite Imperium Games employee?

EDUCATION
Highest Education Completed             Score
No Schooling Whatsoever!       		0
Preschool       			1
Elementary School       		2
Junior High     			3
High School/GRE certification   	4
High School Graduate    		5
College 				6
College Graduate        		7
Master Degree   			8
Ph.D.   				9
Graduated Cum Laude     		+1
Graduated Magna Cum Laude       	+2

Average pages read in a month (fiction, non-fiction, classic literature,
magazine, etc.)
500-1,000                       	+1
1,000+                  		+2
Just (or mostly) comic books            -1
Just (or mostly) The National Inquirer  -1

Do you/Have you read...
Newspaper everyday, or Encyclopedia
or Dictionary, beginning to end         +1
Traveller, any edition, start to end    +1

SOCIAL STATUS
Annual Household Income                         	Score
Below $1,000 (700 pounds)                       	1
$1,000 to $5,000 (700 to 3,000 pounds)                  2
$5,000 to $10,00 (3,000 to 7,000 pounds)                3
$10,00 to $15,000 (7,000 to 10,000 pounds)              4
$15,000 to $20,000 (10,000 to 15,000 pounds)    	5
$20,000 to $30,000 (15,000 to 20,000 pounds)    	6
$30,000 to $50,000 (20,000 to 35,000 pounds)    	7
$50,000 to $75,000 (35,000 to 50,000 pounds)    	8
$75,000 to $100,000 (50,000 to 75,000 pounds)   	9
$100,000 to $500,000 (75,000 to 350,000 pounds) 	10
$500,000+ (350,000 pounds+)                     	11

Do you have any currently famous relative?
(in politics, TV/movies, etc.)
Yes     +1

Have you ever been...
On television or in a movie?    +1
Honored nationally      	+1

Do you play Traveller?
Yes     +1

INTELLIGENCE ANSWERS
1.        +1: 4.
2.  +2: Appropriate answer
3.  +3: 9 to 9th power to the 9th power.
             +1: 999.
4.  +4: "N", for Nine. ("O" is One, "T" is Two, "T" is Three, and so on.)
5.  +1: Traveller or Marc Miller's Traveller.
6.  +1: Whoever is giving this test.

PSIONICS
Have a tester flip a coin 15 times.  Guess heads or tales (front or back),
whatever.  The subjects PSI score is equal to the number of right answers.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:24:55 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

Mark Urbin wrote:

[snip]
>
>   During WWII, Sten SMGs where being produced in high school metal shops.
>Newsreels showed this as part of the British War Effort.
>
[snip]

	Ye gods... I wish I'd known that this was possible during high
school.  I would have taken shop for sure :).

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:26:36 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns !

> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:24:59 -0400
> From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
> Subject: Re:  Handheld Meson Guns ! !
> 
> >Using Fire Fusion & Steel it is very easy to design a hand held Meson
> >gun FGMP style weapon for Battledress troups at TL 15.  The overall
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Comment are welcommed.
> 
> 1) Perfect example of why sometimes ya just gotta break a rule! Beautiful!

Did you notice that the gun cost less than Cr 7,500 as well.  So not
only would this thing be able to shoot through walls & buildings but it
would be cheap enough for individuals to own (on TL 15 Law Level 0
worlds of course).  How about the National Meson Gun Man Portable 
Association to lobby to keep these things legal.

> 2) Those winters *are* awful long up there, aren't they? :)

Only about 6 months or so.  Most all of the snow is gone & we might see
green leaves in a week or so.  I think the temperature today may have
gotten as high as 50 degreees (10 degrees C) judgind by the number of
people wearing shorts I've seen.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:31:17 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

	Guys, enough.  This is extremely non-Traveller, and I
whole-heartedly regret ever having brought up the topic in the first place.
Please, let's stop, or at least relocate to private email or something...

	But while I'm here, I might as well point out that I think that
there's a lot of good film, dance, literature, and circus coming out of
Qu=E9bec right now; please don't think that that neurotic anorexic human
poodle C=E9line Dion (my girlfriend calls her "la Michael Jackson du Qu=E9be=
c")
is typical.

	And I'd hardly characterize Qu=E9becois society as "regressive";
aside from their ethnic nationalist policies (about as regressive as you
can get but hey), the old-guard PQ actually had a pretty progressive
platform in a lot of areas, to the point where an ex-NDP pinko symp such as
myself tends to regret them having been separatist.

	And as far as Martians go, well, stare all you like, but don't ban
their language from public view, make it illegal to send your kids to
school with little Martians, and don't break up the country because it's
too damn Martian for your tastes...

	And I'm going to stop now.  Apologies again for having let the cat
out of the bag.  OTOH, I may have accomplished a rare feat in Canadian
politics; having a separatist and a Reformer talk to one another ;).

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 19:52:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Bunks versus Staterooms

On 04/25/97 at 10:40 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> said:

> Several list members have been claiming that a starships crew can be
> housed in bunks because current earth military forces, including the ones
> they serve or served in, use bunks & it seems to work adequately.

Warships are going to be more spartan than civilian ships, and with the
emphasis on volume rather than mass I'd guess quarters will be *quite*
spartan.  However, I still think *more* volume needs to be set aside for
crew than the rules indicate.  On civilian ships I think there should be
quite a bit more space allocated.

Having said that, I *don't* think this extra space should..or
would..be put into sleeping areas.

Think about it, just how much awake time does the average person spend in
their bedroom?  I think that crew aboard starship, like crew aboard
seaships, won't rush to their quarters after duty and *stay* there until
their next duty cycle begins..well unless they just have time to sleep. 
That might not be to uncommon either, because as a retired USN Captain told
me one time "an idle sailor is a danger to himself, his crewmates, and his
ship."  The USN's prescription is "drill 'em till they drop." <g>

When they *do* get free time where will they be?  In communal areas, like
wardrooms, mess halls, and the equivalent of 10 Forward.  They will also be
in recreation areas, like gyms, weightrooms, pools, workshops, gamerooms
and more realistic equivalent of holosuites. Being alone doesn't build the
kind of esprit-de-corps..crew
consiousness that most organizations prize, so I'd think significant
amounts of "alone time" would be socially and officially disapproved.

Sure, everybody needs *some* alone time, and if their bunking areas are, at
least, semi-private that will do.  Put thin movable
partitions between bunks, have comfortable bunks that can double as
lounges/chairs, include simple entertainment access, noise suppression, and
efficient use of space for storage, and a fresher for every 3 or 4 "bunks",
and use all the saved space for the
communal and recreational areas.

Passengers, Military Officers, and the crew of civilian ships will want,
expect, and get larger accommodations.  Larger accommodations might mean
2.5x2.5m private rooms with shared freshers.  Higher level officers and
First Class passengers might get 4x2.5m with an included fresher.  On
warships, the CO isn't expected to hob-nob with the ratings, so she will
probably be allocated more private space, but not *much* more.

Is this the sort of life you or I would seek out?  Don't know about you,
but *I* wouldn't..that's one reason I stayed out of the service, too.  <g>
OTHO, could I put up with it for a few weeks passage from Actarus to
Capella Prime?  Yep! Where do I book passage?


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 20:06:43 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Tasks & Ships

On 01/02/97 at 04:32 PM,  Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net> said:

I snipped some of Evyn's comments, because I've either already commented
and/or don't want to start *that* topic up again.  ;->

> 2. Military crew accomodations
> 	A bunk is a lot of room, not singly but in groups. Your
> personal space is small, but the left over room adds up quikly. If  you
> figure 3m^3 per crew person (I would have killed for this much room when
> I was on sea duty) that leaves 11m^3 per person for  common spaces. Lots
> of room. As for reacreational space it is where you make it. (I've
> already mentioned Aux con, how 'bouts 12 person D&D game (and traveller
> on that trip) in a squadrons paint shop) I do agree Zeros should have
> staterooms, Ensigns, Lt jgs, Lt,  small staterooms or shared large
> staterooms (shared being the most likely of the two) Lt cmdrs and above
> have their own staterooms small or large depending how tight you are for
> space. Capts+ have  their own Large stateroom and a office if there is
> room.

I just got through posting much the same thing.  I get the feeling that
some of our group spends much more time in their bedrooms than I do.  ;->
Military *and* civilian ships are going to allocate more common area space
than sleeping space.

> 4. Heresy (tasks using funny dice)
> 	I have been expermenting with a 2d10 system for about 4 
> years now. Using CT 8+ as a base and stealing from there. (gurps, hero
> and TNE mostly) Have been playing with a damage system based on AHL and
> T4 pen values that seems to work on paper, we'll she survives the smoke
> test.
> 	Since the horsemen have been taken, can I be the "Holder 
> of the crooked dice of fate". (or some thing like that)

With Joe W's "Task System from Dice Hell!", he *really* should have that
title, <g> but as he probably doesn't want to be associated with us
heretics you can have it.  As the High Priest of Herecy, I hearby dub you
"Holder of the Crooked Dice of Fate", may you dice always be loaded and
your players never catch on.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1258
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1259



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tireen
Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re:  [Official Question] Re: IISS Fast Rescue Boat
Historical footnote
Re: Re: Marc's new task system
Re: Some techincal questions
Ship Sizes
Re: Bunks versus Staterooms
Re: Quebecois
Re: Molecular Edges
Re: Quebecois
Re: Re[2]: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Buckyballs
Re: Gun Damage
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Molecular Edges
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Re: Historical footnote
Re: Buckyballs
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: conservations
Re: Precious materials

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 19:53:30 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Tireen

On 1997-04-24 14:22 thus spake Mark Seemann:

>You can find mention of it _one_ place, as far as I remember, namely in the
>Imperial Encyclopedia, Library Data, Ancients, p. 17:
>
>"There is evidence they created the multiworld rosette at Tireen (Knaeleng
>2910, in the Vargr extents)."

Gee, those ancients sure were busy building rosettes. That's two that I 
know of, then. One in our universe, one out, both in the Vargr extents. 
(see my recent post)

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 19:53:25 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

On 1997-04-23 23:29 thus spake K.C. Komosky:
>	Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I know that 
>there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four or 
>five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that is 
>somewhere in the Vargr Extents.
>
>But I can't find it. Can anyone give me any more information about this 
>wonder of the Ancient world?

If you have Vilani and Vargr, page 65 explains the hidden pocket universe 
at Lair which contains the rosette. Apparently a gas giant called 
Fyutinyu by the Ancients was rotated out of normal space along with 7 of 
its moons. They ignited the gas giant. The pocket universe is connected 
to our universe through a number of portals, located on and around Lair

Even now, the portals are occasionally used by the inhabitants of the 
Fyutinyu universe and their robotic servants....

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 22:04:14 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re:  [Official Question] Re: IISS Fast Rescue Boat

Sorry for the delay in responding to this ...

Glenn Hoppe asked:
> But is 3 armour all the way around enough for interplanetary travel?

I'd say ... definitely not.  There's two major dangers that you need to
protect the ship and passengers from in deep space: micrometeors and
radiation.  For an interplanetary vessel (that's designed to spend the vast
majority of it's working lifetime in orbital or deep space), the chance that
a radiation event or a big enough micrometeor will come along is pretty much
a certainty.  So an interplanetary ship needs to carry enough armor to
survive that.

> Back in Feb. wildstar posted an armour conversion table which listed
> QSDS Armour value 0 as being equivalent to a T4 Armour value of 13.

Right; the value may get fiddled with in the next revision of QSDS, but
it'll still be in the 10-15 ballpark.  It turns out that 13 is a
particularly bad breakpoint for some things.

> CSC stated that an armour of 3 is required for the front and 2 for other
> sides in order to get a sub-orbital "certification".

Right.  That's sub-orbital, not interplanetary.  The assumption is that
suborbital vehicles spend most of their time below orbital speeds and
altitudes - reducing the chance of a major incident to the point where the
risk is considered acceptable (but for the devious referees out there: it's
not zero - take one out to orbit, and you run a very slight risk of hitting
something that'll damage the craft, or taking enough radiation to be
dangerous to the occupants or the electronics).

> Question: Is 13 the minimum armour required for inteplanetary travel
> when using the VDS? If not (i'm guessing it is, or perhaps rounded to
> 10) then what is the minimum?

In general, the VDS isn't for building interplanetary vehicles.  If you want
to go interplanetary, use serious armor (10 or above) to protect the vehicle
and the occupants.  You're guessing right, in other words.



Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:25:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Historical footnote

Kenneth Winland

>On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:
>
>> Debatable. The ancient Egyptian pharaohs (sp?) tended to marry within
their 
>> families so as not to dilute the purity of their bloodlines (and I doubt
they 
>> are unique in that). 

<material deleted>
>
>	I mentioned this on an early post.  There are a few cultures where
>sibling marriage is acceptable, but only among the highest echelons of the
>ruling class.  It is still deemed illegal/reprehensible for anyone else in
>theat culture (Pharoahs were divine, after all).

I feel compelled to point out that there is evidence that the opposite is
true, at least for  Roman Egypt. A specific example of a census from AD 173-4
lists a family of four brothers (occupation unknown) all living in the same
house (inherited from their parents), two of whom having married their
sisters. They do not seem to from" the highest echelons of thruling class",
although they do seem to be property owners and members of the rural elite.
This is not a specialty of mine, but there seems to be a substantial body of
evidence for sibling unions, although they seem to have been forbidden to
Roman citizens.

Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:41:41 -0400
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Re: Marc's new task system

At 10:28 AM 4/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all.
>
>I have recently modified the MT task system for use with T4. I 

<snip>

>If anyone is interested, I will post it. 

Please post.  And add your experience system as well, please.

TIA.

 James Garriss                          System Engineer, MITRE               
 jpg@langley.mitre.org          http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:16:30 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:10:41 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> >I've got a few techincal questions that some of you more scientifically
>> >minded people might be able to answer...
>> >
>> >1) Am I missing something, or in theory could you point a nuclear damper at
>> >a ship's or vehicle's power plant and stop the power-generating reaction?
>> >Ooops..Mr. Grav Tank's fusion plant has died - it falls like a rock. And
>> >boarding ships would become routine...
>> >
>> >...I don't want this to work this way, cause I think it'll screw up a lot
>> >of things...but I'm wondering if there is a "Scientific" reason why it
>> >won't work...
>> 
>> It likely won't, since the damper is not a beam weapon but an energy field
>> which surrounds the ship.
>
>Depends on the version of Traveller you are playing.  TNE list them as
>requiring their very own beam pointer to aim them at incoming
>missiles.  T4 list them as components mounted in turrets or batteries.
>Both versions indicate that nuclear dampers must be aimed.
>
That does change the soup a bit...

I'll theorise then...

Since the obgect of a defensive damper is to prevent an explosive nuclear
reaction, then directing them at vehicles would perhaps do little more than
slow them down a bit.

However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being developed to
stop power plant nuclear cores.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 21:27:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Ship Sizes

On 04/25/97 at 10:17 AM,  Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> said:

> Actually, traveller ships are rather smaller than I had imagined them at
> an earlier point in my life.  Most player sized "ships" are actually the
> size of aircraft.

Free Trader (200ton/2800stere)

    One possible configuration:

    40m long   131 ft
    10m wide    33 ft
     7m high    23 ft

    This is a two story building!

Bon Louie [from one of my games] (800ton/11200stere)

    One possible configuration:

     82m   long    270 ft
     13m   wide     43 ft
     10.5m high     35 ft

    This is a *three* story building!  It's also the size of a small
    tramp freighter.

This isn't really a PC ship, but let's look at it just because it's the
biggest thing you can build with SSDS.  (But I'm *not* using SSDS to build
it!) ;->

Medium Freighter/Liner (5000ton/70000stere)

    One possible configuration:
    
    138m long   453 ft
     24m wide    79 ft
     21m high    69 ft

    This is bigger than a WWII heavy cruiser..though a bit tall and
    broad a'beam.  <g>
    
(Guess, who's been playing with a spreadsheet hull generator? <g>)
    
Eris    
    
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:17:43 -0500
From: ghost029@juno.com
Subject: Re: Bunks versus Staterooms

Peter,
	I have forgotten about the Solomani using 25% less crew space. I
also agree with your arguments about more space at higher tech levels.
However, certain ship designs can always be tight for quarters in order
to meet mission design criteria. I.E the Imperial Navy, may as a whole
quarters it's personnel in staterooms, but still have a few ship designs
that don't. This just mean extra pay or extra benefits for the crew
serving in them.

Thomas Harkless
MM1/SS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:13:08 -0700
> From: Danny_M._Moody@mailhost.bridge.com (Danny M. Moody)
> 
> >>       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
> >>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
> >>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
> >
> >But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?
> 
> Only if ruled by a TED.

And not just *any* TED, either.  It'd take a lesbian francophone TED,
carrying her own baby in utero.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Molecular Edges

> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:33 GMT
> From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
> 
> On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:26:44 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> > Looking for information on how molecular edges (i.e. an edge one or a
> > few molecules thick) might work in Traveller - specifically on a cutlass. 
> > As I recall, one was mentioned in one of Saberhagan's (sp?) berserker
> > stories, and we've probably all seen the molecular thumbnail whip from
> > Johnny Mnemonic.  Cool effect, but didn't seem plausible.
> 
> I hated the depiction of the mono-whip in Johnny Mnemonic.  The only
> reason it glowed was to give the audience something to follow.  Yuck.

I agree.  And it's the same reason that starship battles on big and little
screens get fought at ranges of a few km -- the audience wants to be able
to see both ships at once.  Sigh.

> > My questions are:
> > What element(s) would be used and how would the edge be attached? 
> > Carbon-carbon bond strengths look pretty promising.
> 
> Know what a Buckley Ball is?  Take the two hemispheres and separate
> them with multiple rings until the "ball" has stretched into a long
> string (a Buckley Tube).

Not "Buckley," "Bucky."  Short for Buckminster Fuller, inventor of the
geodesic dome (among other things), which is structurally identical to
C60.

> Bonding mono-wire to the leading edge of an edged weapon also asks the
> question: What are you bonding it *with*?  I don't think you can bond
> it on a molecular level, since doing so would alter the molecular
> structure of the Buckley Tube.

Not a problem, really.  People routinely synthesize buckythings with
"handles" on them these days.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:29:10 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

pierre-louis constantin wrote:
> There are very few true fanatics here - but there are idiots everywhere, right?
> So I guess suicide raids would be out of the question.

ah, shit!

You forgot infiltrating the civil service (40% francophone and growing), making 
unreasonable demands then saying that their compromise was merely coming to the table 
(before anybody flames me for that one, that is paraphrasing Bouchard)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:37:19 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Quebecois

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Danny M. Moody wrote:
> 
> > >>       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
> > >>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
> > >>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
> > >
> > >But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?
> >
> > Only if ruled by a TED.
> 
> A _gay_ TED!

From Quebec!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:35:58 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> Now I gently kidded with R.D. Elliot about the inappropriateness of his
> post, but I won't be as kind now. KEEP YOUR QUEBECOIS-SEPRATIST CRAP >OFF OF THE TRAVELLER MAILING LIST!
> 
>         Its only with great restraint that I'm able to not take your bait and
> start discussing separation, even though I have deep feelings on the issue.
> I'm sure the rest of the world could care less about Quebec's petty little
> insecurities and problems.

DAMN STRAIGHT!
Actually this will be my last post on this topic no matter how provoked

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:33:14 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

pierre-louis constantin wrote:
> Well, first off you have to understand that I translated that from
> the french.  M. Bouchard's mom (he's our prime minister) certainly did
> not mean it to be racist... 

well, my home town (about 1.5% french speaking) decided it was not going to conduct 
city business in french unless specifically requested and it got flamed by the feds and 
Quebec as being racist. (and yes, it is the Soo)
> 
> It's not because you stare at a martian that you're a racist... It might
> just be because you've never seen one before.

But to blame losing an election on them is (Jacques Parasite..er..Parizeau)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:26:18 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

Eamon Patrick Watters wrote:
 
> > To quote M. Bouchard's mother: "I'm sure
> > anglophones are just as nice as any other strangers... "
> 
> That's pretty racist, it suggests she doesn't know any anglophones
> because she doesn't associate with them. That kind of crap has left 3000+
> people dead in Northern Ireland, where I live, and in other places in the
> world that deserve even more attention, millions dead.

It is usually the ones who claim racism against themselves that are the first ones to spout 
racist comments about others

> I can't comment too much on the Quebecois/Qubecker situation exect to
> recount this:
> My brother was on a holiday in Canada, and crossed over to Quebec from
> Ontario. He popped into a garage to get some munchies, and was refused
> service by the attendant, who muttered something in French to him. He
> then tried in French - and got insulted by the attendant - <In English>
> - for insulting his language. My Brother left the station - a guest in
> your land - with a very bad impression of it.

Depends on where in Quebec you are. In Montreal, I have found it to be very 
open-minded and cosmipolitan (I have both separatists and federalists as friends)
I have been told by others that Quebec City is hell on earth for anglos.
Idiocy crosses all languages, cultures and races.
I remember watching european news when Quebec was having their last referendum and 
the feeling I got from it was "what is wrong with these people, they live in a peaceful 
culture that treats them more than fairly"
Idiocy crosses all languages, cultures and races.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:43:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Buckyballs

James Lindsey wrote:

>Know what a Buckley Ball is?  Take the two hemispheres and separate
>them with multiple rings until the "ball" has stretched into a long
>string (a Buckley Tube).

That's "Buckyball" and "Buckytube."  They're named after Buckminster Fuller,
nicknamed "Bucky," inventor of the geodesic dome.  (I don't ordinarily correct
spelling errors, but wanted to make sure this one didn't spread.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:51:37 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

WARNING: TNE IDEA, TNE IDEA

For quick kill rules:
2xDV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the head
DV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the chest
1/2DV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the abdomen
1/4DV DV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the upper legs
First hit in combat is x2 above

Thus, you get hit with a light assault rifle (DV3), first shot would be a quick kill in the 
head on a d20 roll of 12 or less. A HMG, however (DV 8) would be 32-
If anything, this is too non-lethal, but it is playable and simple

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:49:53 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>Luckily, vectors "decompose" into vectors in each dimension. This also
>means that you can keep seperate track of a 2d vector and a 1d altitude
>vector and get the same results.
>
>So, the "easiest" way is to use a Mayday type system, but include
>altitude counters. So both the present and future positions have
>altitude counters as well as ship counters.

[Much SNIPped, including ASCII_art showing two 2D maps]

Leonard, I must not get out much because that was one of the best TML posts
I have read. The paired X-Y and X-Z maps are a brilliant idea. Thanks, I'll
look for "BattleFleet Mars".

I think an X-Y hex map and a rectangular X-Z map would work perfectly. I
prefer hex maps because there is a finer granularity of facings and no
awkward diagonals to deal with. A rectangular X-Z map is fine because, as
you point out, one only has to deal with the Z vector. Also, on a planet
one can't (drastically) change your Z coordinate so the same rules and map
could be used for planetary combat by eliminating the X-Z map. This is
good. I like it. Is there any way to encourage IG to use this idea?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Molecular Edges

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

> > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:33 GMT
> > From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
> > 
> > I hated the depiction of the mono-whip in Johnny Mnemonic.  The only
> > reason it glowed was to give the audience something to follow.  Yuck.
> 
> I agree.  And it's the same reason that starship battles on big and little
> screens get fought at ranges of a few km -- the audience wants to be able
> to see both ships at once.  Sigh.
> 
    For what it's worth, I seem to recall that in the original
short-story, the mono-whip did not glow, and, in fact, they couldn't see
it.  The narrative rewound and played the scene in slo-mo in order to
explain what had happened.  I remember it as a great visual moment in the
story and was extremely disappointed that it wasn't carried through in the
movie, but then just about everything in that movie was a huge
disappointment.  William Gibson lost a lot of my respect for writing that
screenplay (although he got some of it back with _Idoru_, his best work in
a long time, I thought).

Anyway, carry on.

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

	Howdy!

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, pierre-louis constantin wrote:

> Well, first off you have to understand that I translated that from
> the french.  M. Bouchard's mom (he's our prime minister) certainly did
> not mean it to be racist...

	Ahhh... Jean Cretien is the *Prime Minister* of Canada.  I think
you mean *premier* of Quebec when referring to Bouchard.  Quebec IS stil
part of Canada....


	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:05:05 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

At 09:48 PM 4/24/97 -0400, R.D. Elliott wrote:

>	But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).

You forgot that they're *gay* rocks advocating a feudal technocracy.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:14:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Historical footnote

	Greetings!

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I feel compelled to point out that there is evidence that the opposite is
> true, at least for  Roman Egypt. A specific example of a census from AD 173-4
> lists a family of four brothers (occupation unknown) all living in the same
> house (inherited from their parents), two of whom having married their
> sisters. They do not seem to from" the highest echelons of thruling class",
> although they do seem to be property owners and members of the rural elite.
> This is not a specialty of mine, but there seems to be a substantial body of
> evidence for sibling unions, although they seem to have been forbidden to
> Roman citizens.

	Some sibling unions were seen in Roman-occupied Alexandria as
well.  Not only were they against Roman law, but there seems to have been
local pressure against it as well (from Szilagyi (1963)).  This is a bit
earlier than your example, though.  These sib crosses were seen solely
among the local elite.  At least, that is what has been reported... :)

	There were a number of cases seen in Greek-occupied Egypt (as
reported by Ascadi and Nemeskeri (1972)).  You are quite correct about it
being seen beyond the ruling courts, although in a limited frequency.  It
seems to have been limited to those with some higher status, and even then
it was viewed in a different light by the rest of society.

	Marvin Harris gets into this stuff.  I think he also cited some
examples from India (pre- AD 500).  I am more interested in
paleodemographics rather than incest <g>.

	Later!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:58:31 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Buckyballs

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:43:55 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> >Know what a Buckley Ball is?  Take the two hemispheres and separate
> >them with multiple rings until the "ball" has stretched into a long
> >string (a Buckley Tube).
> 
> That's "Buckyball" and "Buckytube."  They're named after Buckminster Fuller,
> nicknamed "Bucky," inventor of the geodesic dome.  (I don't ordinarily correct
> spelling errors, but wanted to make sure this one didn't spread.)

Thanks.  Ever have one of those days? :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:58:30 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:16:30 -0400, you wrote:

> I'll theorise then...
> 
> Since the obgect of a defensive damper is to prevent an explosive nuclear
> reaction, then directing them at vehicles would perhaps do little more than
> slow them down a bit.
> 
> However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being developed to
> stop power plant nuclear cores.

No, it doesn't.  I don't really have a problem with this, either.  It
is just a creative use of a device outside of its normal role.  It
will only work for fission powerplants, however.  Fusion operates on a
different principle.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:17:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: conservations

In mail you write:

>>> Kinetic energy is a scalar, not a vector. 

Okay, okay, OKAY! <sheesh>

One *little* mistake and they nail you....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:57:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Precious materials

In mail you write:

> I was just wondering something
>
> As TL is high, is there still precious materials which cannot be created
> from others? 
>
> I explain : For centuries, many people dreamed to convert lead to gold. We
> know that's possible today but the converting prcess is more expensive than
> gold itself. In a higher TL, those conversion could be much cheaper. So
> cheap that even diamond bottles would be as easy to create as glass bottles.

Two different things here. making gold from lead will *always* require
lots of energy. But making diamond from carbon isn't inheremt all that
energy intensive. 

Right now they can "diamond plate" things. Trouble is, it doesn't work
well with metals, you tend to wind up with a carbide layer instead. 

> At high TL we have quite low price energy and quite easy to build small
> article accelerator. But also the duclear dampers which controls strong
> forces inside a nucleus. with all those technologies. do you think it's
> possible it would be cheaper to convert a material from a near by atomic
> number marterial than to extract it from the underground or asteroids.

Unlikely. Converting is always going to be more expensive than
extracting. But consider the fact that a 1 km nickel iron asteroid will
"only" have around a million tons of gold in it....

With fusion power you can seperate matter at the *isotope* level. So
it's not just diamond bottles, but pure carbon-12 diamond, at that.

Diamond *will* be pretty cheap at high tech levels. Partly because
advanced semiconductors will be doped *carbon* (diamond) rather than
doped silicon. So there will be large amounts of "spoiled" diamond
available (wrong resistivity, crystal defects, etc). I know. I worked
in a place that made silicon ingots and silicon wafers from the ingots.
Anybody who wanted it could have multi-kilo chunks of defective ingot
for paperweights. Since diamond is "pretty", there will be more of a
market for it (our scrap silicon got sold for use in steel making).

In any case, Traveller *way* undersestimates the availability of
elements at their tech levels. You just turn rock into plasma, then
sort the atoms by atomic weight using magnetic fields (a sort of
overgrown mass spectrograph). 

So raw elements will cost based on their abundance in the universe.
What will be expensive will be *arrangements* of atoms. Specific
crystal structures, especially gemstones, complex composite materials,
etc. 

"Simple" crystals like sapphire, ruby, and diamond won't be worth much
unless they are "natural". I picture miners using some sort of scanning
gear on the rock to see if there is anything worth digging out by hand
before feeding the rock to the crusher and then to the fusion torch for
seperation into elements.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1259
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1260



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Norris' sexual orientation
Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
Re: Handheld Meson Guns
Re: Precious materials
Re: Quebecois
Stat Test
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Re: The Army vs. The Marines
Re: Some techincal questions
Advanced Character Generation
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1258
Re: CSC and Emperor's Arsenal
Lost article...
Re: Handheld Meson Guns !
Re: IR Masking
Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT - The Torden Patrol Cruiser
Re: Ship Sizes
Re: Quebecois
Re: Quebecois
Re: The Army vs. The Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 13:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Norris' sexual orientation

In-Reply-To: <199704231713.NAA26702@loki.tor.hookup.net>

<< >absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Shouldn't that be: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of abstinence"? 
 :-) >>

Oh, very good!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 13:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...

In-Reply-To: <18061017459@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

<< Well, but it's still a north american trait. Bad or mad scientist in 
RPG's or Movies are mostly of German-type heritage and have silly 
names, usually relating to their profession or habit. >>

But they're always played by a British actor.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:33:14 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns

At 09:21 PM 4/24/97 +0000, Craig Berry wrote:
>> <snip>
>
>Man, did this bring back memories!  In a Champions campaign way back when,
>my character was a mad-scientist inventor type; my shtick was always
>having new gizmos in every game, some of which worked, some of which
>failed spectacularly.  It was a blast to role-play.
>
>But his crowning achievement was the back-pack meson gun (borrowed from
>Traveller's ship-sized MGs).  This was an incredibly powerful weapon, but
>horrifyingly inaccurate -- in character, I was always promising that I'd
>fixed the latter problem. :)  It also took between one and three combat
>rounds to warm up for a shot, during which time it made a loud and
>distinctive warbling whine.  Thus, it was not all that useful a
>weapon...but when I *did* decide to use it, the joy in having every foe
>*and* friend in the battle suddenly go white with panic and dive for cover
>was breathtaking. :)
>
>Also, I installed a safety override (after a bad experience I'm sure you
>can all picture) that put the absolute closest possible blast point, even
>given worst-case inaccuracy, at least 20 meters away from me.  Once people
>figured this out, that first keening whine would cause everyone in the
>battle -- again, friend and foe alike -- to run directly *toward* me at
>top speed.  This again lessened the thing's utility, but was way amusing.
>
>Anyway, sorry for the off-topicness...but perhaps something similar might
>fit into a light-hearted Trav campaign somewhere.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>       "Every man and every woman is a star."
>
>

PC's one high passenger for this run is a slightly eccentric inventor; who
has this 'loud and distinctive warbling whine' intermittently comming from
his cabin as he 'tinkers' with his latest invention.

Perhaps a few spectacular but not immediately lethal detonations having the
engineering crew frantically tracking random 'short ciricuts'.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:41:18 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Precious materials

At 01:06 PM 4/25/97 +0000, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
><snip>
>At high TL we have quite low price energy and quite easy to build small
>article accelerator. But also the duclear dampers which controls strong
>^^^^^^^^
 Heh? .... the images that come to mind ......
>-----------
>Nicolas LEJEUNE
>   Engineer, Paris, France
>   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
>   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr
>
 Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:18:43 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:05:05 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Quebecois
> 
> At 09:48 PM 4/24/97 -0400, R.D. Elliott wrote:
> 
> >       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
> >Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
> >fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
> 
> You forgot that they're *gay* rocks advocating a feudal technocracy.

But don't you realize that they are only advocating a feudal technocracy
to cover up the Templar plots which are secretly part of the epic
conflict between the Hivers & the Ancients (who are secretly still
around & whose secret mind control is driving everyone towards the Five
Sisters/Spinward Marches subsector).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:47:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Stat Test

Um... I accidentally deleted the copy of the Traveller Digest with the stat
test in it (yes, the one that just came out).

Would someone be so kind as to email me a copy?  Thanks!

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:16:23 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

Facinating though this particular round of the Francophone worlds eternal
struggle against perfidious Albion might be; might I politely request that
unless someone can come up with a link between it and some form of SF or
RPG, it be kept in more appropriate forums :*).


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1997 15:17:56 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Quebecois

For those of you wondering how this thread is relevant to Traveller:

Quebecois separatists can be used as a good model for the Solomani.  The more
radical/racist ones are the Solomani Supremacists, while the more reasonable
ones are just scared of losing their culture in a sea of Vilani, even though
Solomani form a disproportionate part of the Imperial Civil Service.

Admittedly the Surete du Quebec isn't as efficient as SolSec, but substitute
the French police and intelligence agencies (remember the Rainbow Warrior)
and you have a nice model to draw on.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:56:39 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

At 01:13 AM 4/25/97 +0000, Rupert wrote:
> <snip>
>The Army boy would stay on their homeworld, and just be part of a smaller
>army (and envy the equipment of bigger armies :). Just like on earth today.
>I invisage there being quite a lot of 'lending' and cross training of
>troops between neighbour systems.
>
>The Marines OTOH would be Imperial, with only small local Marine Forces
>(attached to the System Defence naval force) beloning to the system.
>
>R. Boleyn
> <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
>TNE to the core
>
>

No.  Never keep units where their loyalty to the locals would be greater
than their loyalty to the government. Tiaenamem Square was a stand off until
troops from a DIFFERENT ETHNIC region than the protesters were brought in.
Even Imperial Rome knew this: legions were raised in one area and stationed
somewhere else. Also why fraternization is discourged. When trouble starts,
you do not want the troops expected to suppress it to have any cause for
hesitation.

Garry
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:58:03 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

At 11:16 pm 04/25/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I'll theorise then...
>
>Since the obgect of a defensive damper is to prevent an explosive nuclear
>reaction, then directing them at vehicles would perhaps do little more than
>slow them down a bit.
>
>However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being developed to
>stop power plant nuclear cores.

	Actually, IIRC from earlier versions of Traveller (all the way back to the
IBBB and Striker), a "nuclear damper" was able to project a field which
could both damp (i.e. inhibit) nuclear reactions, or enhance (i.e.
accelerate them). So not only can you prevent the enemy's missiles from
going off, you can detonate them prematurely.

	Likewise, I see no major problem with allowing the use of NDs on another
form of nuclear bomb, the fusion reactor. Damping the nuclear force will
reduce the power output, while enhancing it will increase it. In fact, I
expect TL12+ fusion reactors to USE damping technology to control the reactor.

	As far as its use as a weapon, I believe NDs have always been fairly
short-ranged. Also, damping a nuclear warhead before it begins a high-rate
thermonuclear reaction may be easier than damping an ongoing reaction. And
if your target already uses ND tech to control the reactor, his NDs are
much closer than yours, and hence have a great advantage.

	Actually, I can see spacestations, etc. having short-range NDs mounted
inside docking bays or around docking areas. Next time your PCs threaten to
warm up their power plant and fire ship's weapons at recalcitrant
bureaucrats (mine have a couple of times), have the ship's engineer
suddenly come on the intercom "Capt'n! I canna get the pow'r ye need! She's
damped oot!"

	But for boarding I'd rule you need to be fairly close, and have a very
strong one. NDs sized for warheads would probably have trouble coping with
a warship-sized fusion plant, but your average small fighter, OTOH ... <duck>
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:11:30 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: Advanced Character Generation

To Whom It May Concern:

	I am currently in the middle of a rewrite of the MegaTraveller Advanced =
Character Generation rules, so that I can port them over to T4. If there =
is any interest in this, if you have something to contribute or would =
like to see in it, let me know.

Steven Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1258

> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:24:55 -0400
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> Subject: Re: Traveller: 1965 timeline...
> 
> Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> >
> >   During WWII, Sten SMGs where being produced in high school metal shops.
> >Newsreels showed this as part of the British War Effort.
> >
> [snip]
> 
> 	Ye gods... I wish I'd known that this was possible during high
> school.  I would have taken shop for sure :).
> 
> R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his 
hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the 
civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win. 
On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming 
as it is essentially an improvised weapon.

*** "*Thwap* My life needs a rewind/erase button"            ***
***                                       Calvin and Hobbes  ***
*** Mark James Wilkin                                  	     ***
*** Degrees North on the Web                                 ***
*** http://zen.sunderland.ac.uk/~aa4mwi/north.html           ***

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:49:44 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CSC and Emperor's Arsenal

At 05:24 PM 4/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.  The weapons table on page 59
>of CSC contains weapons that are different from those listed in the
>Emperor's Arsenal.
>
>For example:
>250 Kg Bomb-5
>	CSC gives a damage of 55 explosive, EA has 53 explosive.
>
>Light Autocannon-8
>	CSC gives a damage of 9 and a mass of 200 Kg.
>	EA gives a damage of 10 (7 exp) and a mass of 270 Kg.
>
>In fact, I cannot find a single weapon that matches exactly between
>CSC and EA.  There is also one important difference.  CSC has vehicle
> plasma weapons starting at TL 11, while they are TL 12 under EA.
>
>So, could somebody with a copy of 3G3 find out what a 250 Kg bomb-5
>/should/ have in terms of damage, and decide which of these is right.
>I'm inclined to think that the values in CSC were tentative, and have
>now been superceded by EA.

Exactly right.  The CSC designs were rough drafts, so to speak.  It was a
bear reverse engineering the explosives, but worth it.

If you like, you can use the CSC stats as varients.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:48:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Jerry Sanders <kalin@bambam.swlink.net>
Subject: Lost article...

I've lost the article that Kenneth Bearden posted called:

"How I'm running the Traveller Adventure Pt II (long)"

If anyone has this, could you please repost it or send it to me via email?
I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

Slan agat,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:09:28 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Handheld Meson Guns !

>worlds of course).  How about the National Meson Gun Man Portable 
>Association to lobby to keep these things legal.

"Guns don't kill people, the mad scientists who invent them do"

>Only about 6 months or so.  Most all of the snow is gone & we might see
>green leaves in a week or so.  I think the temperature today may have
>gotten as high as 50 degreees (10 degrees C) judgind by the number of
>people wearing shorts I've seen.  :)

I can relate, it got down to around 50 hear last night I think. Had to get up
and get a blanket  :)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:09:20 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: IR Masking

>But the "heat dimension" bubble *does* interact with the "jump bubble"
>on a 3D level-- since both bubbles originate within 3D space.  Since
>the idea of both bubbles is to isolate the /3D world/ from either
>dimension, they cannot help but interact at the /3D level/.

Hmmm...true. Yeah, I can see that they must interact. I was trying to get
away from the unfortunate "hole" terminology that suggested it was an
actual breech in the j-bubble. So perhaps my suggestion that it shares
certain properties w/ the j-dimension (e.g. 100-diameter limit) is more
important for its validity.

>To maintain your comparison between "j-dimension" and "h-dimension",
>your waste heat must be converted into energy before it is dumped to
>the heat sink "thingy" (remember, we are still in the Real World(tm)
>at this point, and must abide by those rules).  Real World(tm) physics
>also state that transforming heat energy into another form is *highly*
>inefficient... this is where things get ugly.

So the heat energy itself cannot be used? It must be converted into 
another form? (Y'all will have to help me out here, what little physics
I've had was a *long* time ago) *sigh* So does this mean we now 
have to fall back on radiating the heat into the dimension instead of
using it as a barrier against it?

>That does "cover the bases", but since I cannot enter this world to
>interact with it and examine other facts, it becomes impossible to
>disprove such a theory (which is what I thought Hans was asking).
 
Ok, I see that. But I don't think we're asking you to do the impossible, 
merely the nearly impossible and help us to minimize the handwaving 
on this sucka  :)

>2) One breaks the laws of conservation of energy, which can open up a
>whole new can of worms (ie: a fictitious universe is most stable if
>handwaving is kept to a minimum).  Solar cells also absorb heat energy
>from the local light source, which must be dealt with in some way.

But is there any real difference in game terms between the two? I know 
that the cells require the solar input to function conserving energy, but
in game terms that might as well be perpetual and thus "money for nothing".
That's why I'd love to determine what the effeciency/power ratings on
these things might be.

The solar cell disadvantage of dealing w/ the waste heat has its equal
in the heat sink disadvantage of going kablooie if the pplant dies while
it is on. I think that works pretty good for game balance :)

Hmmm...so if we're breaking conservation...maybe we can bring thrusters
into this as well...and thus tie the j-dimension, h-dimension, and t-dimension
together. Great Scott, man! We're on the verge of finding the "Unified 
Hand-Wave Theory"!!!!      :)

>3) The Star Trigger was a one-off thingy obtained beyond TL15.  It has
>only had to have been dealt with once in the Traveller universe.
>Conversely, allowing such a device at TL10 so that early spacegoers
>can get rid of that heat build-up that has been handwaved away could
>cause problems (ie: technology is usually developed first as a weapon,
>since control isn't as great an issue-- like fission). 

Well, if we use the 100-diameter limitation, this problem goes away for 
the most part.

>I actually like the idea of a heat sink dimension, but began to work
>on the "against" side after Hans asked someone to try and disprove his
>idea.  I'd like to be on the "for" side, but I think we need some more
>input so that the use of a dimensional heat sink won't be abused.

That's what we're all out here kicking the tires for.

>Since you propose to base it on a principle similar to jump space, a
>bit of handwaving can't really hurt (being built on the foundations of
>previous canonical handwaving :)

That's it, man, come help us w/ the Universal Hand-Wave Theory! Soon
fame, fortune, and little munchkin-babes in bikinis will be ours! :)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:12:54 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT - The Torden Patrol Cruiser

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mark Clark wrote:

> 
>   Well, here are my comments on the Aprill THUDD Designs.  I'll make some
> general remarks first, and then get into some more detailed comments on
> each design in the section on ratings below.  In general the designs were
> very interesting.
> 
>   I also gave points for hangers - given the stress on fighters in
> anti-pirate actions by Cleon I, the ability to accomodate them is
> essential.  I also downrated ships without meson screens - the written
> requirement for superior defensive capability, along with the requirement
> for use in fleet actions, means any design without such screens waould be
> less capable.  Finally, I gave extra points to ships that put the crew in
> staterooms rather than bunks.  I always liked the idea from 2300AD that
> cramped crew quarters gave you a negative DM on crew performance. 

Just some general comments here. Hangars I think is essential for
fulfilling the patrol crusiers mission. You need at least a small
ships boat so that troops can be dispatched for toll and other 
checking missions. These are situations where you maybe don't know
the ship you are about to check, so you don't want to take the
patrol crusier to close and lose your manuverbility. I also think 
meson screens are essential since these ships are to undertake 
stand alone missions. Since there is a meson gun bay and small meson
screens are relative cheap I would preferee the patrol cruiser to
have this. But when it comes to small staterooms vs. bunks I go for the
bunks. These are military ships, no luxary liners. The crew sleep in the
bunks and all other available free space serves as common areas. I would
rather use bunks and throw in a couple of large staterooms for crew common
areas than go for small staterooms where some of the space is used for
this purpose. 
 
>   One thing that peaves me is the number of designers who called their A10
> P4 J10 sensor packages "Top of the line."  Not true - the slightly larger
> TL12 package of Medium Military Sensors has A16 P5 J16 ratings -
> significantly superior in coverage.  I downrated all ships that made do
> with the Small Military Sensor package.

I agree with this one, but its really a marked trick, you just caught it
:-) 

>   My suspiciaons were confirmed about SSDS vs. QSDS - the best designs
> were SSDS designs, since you could add more armor.  One thing that I would> 
> like to put out for discussion is the use of hulls from Wildstars big book
> of hulls in QSDS designs.  I think they should not get the QSDS discount,
> though they should be allowed for use - the basic hulls given in the QSDS
> rules should be the ones that are produced in volume in the Imperium and
> subject to the considerable 25% discount.

Well, my QSDS design did fairly well, although I used a modified FF&S
designed hull. The proplem with QSDS is that the laser batteries uses 
tremendous amounts of power. The SSDS ships fit 4 powerful lasers and
use a 750Mw power plant. The Torden had puny weapons but used over 400Mw
on lasers alone. I think this is something we have to look into before the
next THUDDD.

> > **************************************************
> > *
> > * The Torden class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS and FF&S for hull design) 
> > * Bertling Construction Company
> > * Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> > *
> > *     OVERALL DESIGN          - 3 
> > *     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 4
> > *     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 3
> > *     EFFICIENCY              - 2
> > *     UNUSUALNESS             - 4
> > *
> 
>   Now we are getting to some good designs - the 600T J2 ones.  Nice cost,
> reasonable acceleration, great armor, lots of small craft space (40T
> total).  Let down by short range low power lasers, and lack of defense in
> dampers and sandcasters.  I also didn't like the bunks for the crew.  A
> nice design overall.

Well this is my design and I thought I would comment some on the design.
First of, thanks for your comments and praise.

Well my first comment is about the manuever drive. Bertlings philosophy
(and mine) is that we don't like the Thruster Plates, they have been
booted out of my campaign. I therefor use the HEPlaR drive which cost 
tremendously in power and fuel. The hole design therefor becomes a
tradeoff in volume (something I think is the main point of designing
ships). This is also the reason for the bunks. The HEPlaR drive also 
cuts down on usable manuver time. The Torden only has 20G-hours of fuel
(more if jump fuel is used) and therefor can only beform five hours of
full thrust before being sitting duck. (This makes space combat much
more enjoyable). 

The armored hull on this ship was made with the FF&S but I really needed
a better hull than the ones in QSDS. I have not given the hull a 25% 
discount so on this one I agree with you. I also see the arguments Chris
Cox has made about mass to thrust ratio, but if I am to make ships at all
this has to go out the window.

The low power lasers (uses over 400Mw) is a result of what QSDS has to
offer. Lasers in QSDS is a power sink compared to SSDS and therefor really
a result of design system. The lack of dampers and sandcasters is also a 
result of the problem with power and volume. Since the ship has a 50 armor
value and a 4G drive my thoughts was that if things get though run. The
armor should protect the ship until the ship can escape. 

Thanks again for your comments.

> ______________________________
> Dr. Mark Clark
> Oregon Institute of Technology
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:32:23 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Ship Sizes

>On 04/25/97 at 10:17 AM,  Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> said:
>
>> Actually, traveller ships are rather smaller than I had imagined them at
>> an earlier point in my life.  Most player sized "ships" are actually the
>> size of aircraft.
>
>Free Trader (200ton/2800stere)
>
>    One possible configuration:
>
>    40m long   131 ft
>    10m wide    33 ft
>     7m high    23 ft
>
>    This is a two story building!

So is the C - 130 Herculies. The F - 14 Tomcat isn't much smaller.

I won't even get into the C - 5, the Arado Condor, or the B - 36!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:26:34 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

>> >>       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
>> >>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
>> >>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task
system :).
>> >
>> >But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?
>> 
>> Only if ruled by a TED.
>
>And not just *any* TED, either.  It'd take a lesbian francophone TED,
>carrying her own baby in utero.

And she's  married to her sister.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:38:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

Quoth Peter Newman:
> > From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> > At 09:48 PM 4/24/97 -0400, R.D. Elliott wrote:
> > >       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
> > >Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
> > >fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
> >
> > You forgot that they're *gay* rocks advocating a feudal technocracy.
> 
> But don't you realize that they are only advocating a feudal technocracy
> to cover up the Templar plots which are secretly part of the epic
> conflict between the Hivers & the Ancients (who are secretly still
> around & whose secret mind control is driving everyone towards the Five
> Sisters/Spinward Marches subsector).

...and who taught Aristotle everything he knew.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:39:02 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

At 01:13 PM 4/25/97 +1200, R. Boleyn wrote:

>I've always assumed that the Imperium doesn't have an Army per se, but
>'borrowed' units from member planets as needed.

Yes, but the locals will compete for the additional money, equipment and
training that comes from being a designated "Imperial" unit.  Much like the
scramble to be part of the RDF back in the early 1980s, commanders will see
the chance to greatly improve their units and enhance their careers.

The Imperium isn't going to need a TL9 horde.. it would be massacred against
a modern foe.  However, a portion of that horde trained and equipped to TL13
makes for an effective force.

The Imperial, and planetary, Armies are a defensive force.  They exist to
deny the enemy occupation of their homeworld.  To that end, you'll see
wheeled/tracked vehicles even at the higher TLs (they're cheaper to build.)

Consider that from the end of the Pacification Campaigns (200-ish), the
Imperium has been involved in *one* war of conquest (The Solomani Rim War,
990-1002 IIRC.)  The Navy and Marines provide more than enough offensive
punch for a defence-orientated Imperium.

>>Recruits from lo-pop worlds are probably out of luck.. for the Army they
>>probably travel to a neighbor world and enlist there.  Many kids from these
>>backwaters will enlist in the Navy or Marines just to get off the mudball
>>they grew up on.
>
>The Army boy would stay on their homeworld, and just be part of a smaller
>army (and envy the equipment of bigger armies :). Just like on earth today.
>I invisage there being quite a lot of 'lending' and cross training of
>troops between neighbour systems.

VERY low-pop worlds (pop 4 or less) would probably have arangements to
either send their recruits to a regiment on a nearby world, or form a
regiment composed of other low-pop systems.  It did occur to me that these
types of recruits are the ones who will be more likely to join the Navy or
Marines.. having had more than enough of life on the farm, they're ready to
see the universe!

>The Marines OTOH would be Imperial, with only small local Marine Forces
>(attached to the System Defence naval force) beloning to the system.

The way I see it, For every Navy Fleet, there will be three Marine Regiments
attached.  These Regiments will cycle through a three year rotation of duties:

Year one:  Training/Garrison.  The regiment provides security detachments
for Imperila Consulates and Naval facilities in their subsector.  Various
Honor Guard and ceremonial functions are also performed.  Marines are
detached for special schooling or short term assignments.

Year two: Fleet Patrol.  The regiment is boarded, either as Ship's Troops,
or on Rico-class Company Drop Ships.  Elements of the regiment carry out the
directives of the Subsector command.  Small unit training is carried out on
a continual basis.

Year three:  Regimental Training.  The regiment is consolidated at a central
point, and trains as a unit.  The regiment is also on alert to provide
immediate support wherever needed.

Note that a new Marine will see each of these tours in his first term.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1260
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1261



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: Advanced Character Generation
Re: Lost article...
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1260
Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Gun Damage
APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (long)
Re: Griffen-class SDB
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1258(off topic)
Re: The Army vs. The Marines
Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:41:50 -0700
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

First off: Everyone except the fighter partisans sneer at the idea of
fighters going up against capital warships, but has anyone experimented
with larger fighters, i.e. those up to 90 tons? These could carry heavy
batteries able to engage larger ships at range. F'rinstance, picture
several dozen 90-tonners, all carrying 50-ton missile bays and all
ganging up on the same target; they're harder to hit than you are, and
you have to go after them one at a time.... I'd like to hear some
feedback on this, irregardless of which Trav fleet combat system was
used.

Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught? How do you handle the
to-hit possibilities, and how do you handle damage? by the mass of the
fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's? What if the PC packs it
full of high explosives and command-detonates it after he ejects? What
if a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?

Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
(an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
targets from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be
available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 21:22 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970422175803.9279A-100000@electric-rain.net>

<< I like it as well, but if you read your TAS you will see that during the
Third Imperium atleast they did name there vessels - Wayward Dream,
Agidda, etc. >>

Ah, but we're talking about the First Imperium. 

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:23:43 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation

> To Whom It May Concern:
> 
> 	I am currently in the middle of a rewrite of the MegaTraveller Advanced Character Generation rules, so that I can port them over to T4. If there is any interest in this, if you have something to con> 

Steve,

I still use the MT gen system as is--I think T4 gives too many 
skills.  I'd like to see what you came up with.  Post it here!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:23:42 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Lost article...

> I've lost the article that Kenneth Bearden posted called:
> 
> "How I'm running the Traveller Adventure Pt II (long)"
> 
> If anyone has this, could you please repost it or send it to me via email?
> I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

I wish I had kept this because you are the third person whose asked 
for it.

If nobody has it, you could try the TML archive at:

 ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/

And, if you have any questions, e-mail me.  I'll answer as best I 
can.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 21:51:27 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1260

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:

> 
> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:58:03 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> Subject: Re: Some techincal questions
> 
> At 11:16 pm 04/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >I'll theorise then...
> >
> >Since the obgect of a defensive damper is to prevent an explosive nuclear
> >reaction, then directing them at vehicles would perhaps do little more than
> >slow them down a bit.
> >
> >However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being developed to
> >stop power plant nuclear cores.
> 
> 	Actually, IIRC from earlier versions of Traveller (all the way back to the
> IBBB and Striker), a "nuclear damper" was able to project a field which
> could both damp (i.e. inhibit) nuclear reactions, or enhance (i.e.
> accelerate them). So not only can you prevent the enemy's missiles from
> going off, you can detonate them prematurely.
> 
> 	Likewise, I see no major problem with allowing the use of NDs on another
> form of nuclear bomb, the fusion reactor. Damping the nuclear force will
> reduce the power output, while enhancing it will increase it. In fact, I
> expect TL12+ fusion reactors to USE damping technology to control the reactor.
> 
> 	As far as its use as a weapon, I believe NDs have always been fairly
> short-ranged. Also, damping a nuclear warhead before it begins a high-rate
> thermonuclear reaction may be easier than damping an ongoing reaction. And
> if your target already uses ND tech to control the reactor, his NDs are
> much closer than yours, and hence have a great advantage.
> 
> 	Actually, I can see spacestations, etc. having short-range NDs mounted
> inside docking bays or around docking areas. Next time your PCs threaten to
> warm up their power plant and fire ship's weapons at recalcitrant
> bureaucrats (mine have a couple of times), have the ship's engineer
> suddenly come on the intercom "Capt'n! I canna get the pow'r ye need! She's
> damped oot!"
Actually this is cannon (boooom etc) in the first adventure of the TNE: 
Virus Redux epic (where did the other two parts get to?) the repair shop 
has one of these babys to stop people legging it without paying.
mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:04:04 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

At 12:41 PM 4/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
>First off: Everyone except the fighter partisans sneer at the idea of
>fighters going up against capital warships, but has anyone experimented
>with larger fighters, i.e. those up to 90 tons? These could carry heavy
>batteries able to engage larger ships at range. F'rinstance, picture
>several dozen 90-tonners, all carrying 50-ton missile bays and all
>ganging up on the same target; they're harder to hit than you are, and
>you have to go after them one at a time.... I'd like to hear some
>feedback on this, irregardless of which Trav fleet combat system was
>used.

Once again you run into the problem that if you can see it, it can see you.
Your 90 ton gunboat is going up against a 90,000 ton BB.. it has many, many
sensors and weapons.  It can devote a number of them to destroying these
gunboats before they can do much damage.

If a 90 ton ship is carrying a 50 ton bay, it's not going to do much else,
is it?  One hit that knocks out your bay or fire control, and that ship
becomes worthless.  Indeed, how many salvos can you fire from a bay, anyway?

>Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
>his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught? How do you handle the
>to-hit possibilities, and how do you handle damage? by the mass of the
>fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's? What if the PC packs it
>full of high explosives and command-detonates it after he ejects? What
>if a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
>warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
>then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
>How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?

"After he ejects"???  This fighter jock is closing on a BB like a bat out of
hell.. where do you think *he's* going after he punches out?  He'll still
have the the same velocity as the fighter, changed however slightly by the
act of ejecting, but still...

Kamikaze attacks worked because WWII vessels had everything exposed.  The
weapons, the crew, everything was vulnerable.  On a T4 ship, what do you
think the fire control officer is going to do when the computer reports an
enemy small craft on collision course?  He's going to vaporize it; and if
you have filled your ship with explosives, so much the better.

Same difference with the destroyer.  Either the capital ships blast it out
of space, or they all turn their neclear dampers on it, and then dodge as
the now-harmless ship races by.  BTW: Never bet on remote control in combat.
Jamming and EMP effects are more than likely to cut your control at the
worst possible moment.

>Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
>what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
>(an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
>Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
>targets from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be
>available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?

The time factor.  It'll be hours from jump emergence to impact.  Also,
nothing in space is stationary, that's why we need astrogators.  Everything
is moving relative to everything else.  Send an unmanned missle through, and
there's a good chance it will sail by its' target.

Of course if you got it up to a decent percentage of light speed, you
could.. AIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!(thud)(bludgeon)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 02:25:48 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:58:03 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> Subject: Re: Some techincal questions
> 
[snip]
>         Likewise, I see no major problem with allowing the use of NDs on another
> form of nuclear bomb, the fusion reactor. Damping the nuclear force will
> reduce the power output, while enhancing it will increase it. In fact, I
> expect TL12+ fusion reactors to USE damping technology to control the reactor.
> 
>         As far as its use as a weapon, I believe NDs have always been fairly
> short-ranged. Also, damping a nuclear warhead before it begins a high-rate
> thermonuclear reaction may be easier than damping an ongoing reaction. And
> if your target already uses ND tech to control the reactor, his NDs are
> much closer than yours, and hence have a great advantage.
> 
>         Actually, I can see spacestations, etc. having short-range NDs mounted
> inside docking bays or around docking areas. Next time your PCs threaten to
> warm up their power plant and fire ship's weapons at recalcitrant
> bureaucrats (mine have a couple of times), have the ship's engineer
> suddenly come on the intercom "Capt'n! I canna get the pow'r ye need! She's
> damped oot!"

TNE canonically establishes that nuclear dampers can be used to damp out
the fusion plants of nearby ships in The Guilded Lily adventure.  In the
adventure the owner of a starhip repair facility, Jo's Garage, realizes
that the ship she's been working on is a vampire & she shuts it down.
"Jo's father, Pablo, installed a powerful damper projector in the garage
and focussed it on the maintenance bay as a means of preventing people
from hijacking ships or just trying to skip out on a bill.  When turned
on, it will immediately shut down any ships fusion plant."

No stats or TL for this damper projector are given, although the map
shows its size as less than 3m x 3m.

This is a fairly good adventure & I reccommend it.  The interior art is
_terrible_ but it is otherwise quite good.  One of the better touches in
this adventure is that every single inhabitant of the planet Berens
(C846136-8 population 41) is described.  This adventure could fit in a
Milleau 0 setting or even be fit into a Milleau 1100 one. Unfortunately
it is the first of a planned 3 adventures the other two of which were
never done.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 15:08:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Gun Damage

On 04/25/97 at 12:51 AM,  Mused <marz@HotStar.net> said:

> WARNING: TNE IDEA, TNE IDEA

> For quick kill rules:
> 2xDV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the head
> DV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the chest
> 1/2DV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the abdomen
> 1/4DV DV or less on 1D20 is an instant kill in the upper legs First hit
> in combat is x2 above

Nice and simple, and reasonable results.  How about translating this to a
scale/process similar to KB2?  I'd like to tie the results to *more* than
the weapons DV, though.  There should be a little variability based on
creature size, strength, constitution..not *too* much for humanoids though.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:03:17 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD BALLOT (long)

I liked the commets of Mr. Clark so I follow his example
and include some short comments about my voting. Some
of the comments may seem harse, but I do not wish to
offend anybody, they are just some short notes on why I
voted the way I did.

I would also give som criterias before I start.
   - The ship should have at least J2, and I think J3 is a
     little unnessesery.
   - Ships with 4G gets a pluss. 5G and 6G is to much and to
     expencive in mony, power and volume. 1G-3G is not enough
     to meet the design specs in my eyes.
   - Should have sandcasters, nuclear dampers and meson screens
     together with a 30+ armor rating (I know this is not available
     with QSDS but I still think the patrol cruiser needs it :-)
   - Should have fire power all the way to the extreme range.
   - Should carry missiles.
   - There is a need for a ships boat (20dton+) and at least 4 troops
     for custom checks of vessels. The need for the small craft is 
     so the main vessel can keep som distance should the ship turn 
     out to be smuggling and fires.

Well here goes.

**************************************************
* OFFICIAL THUDDD BALLOT    APRIL
**************************************************
*
* Kommodo, Monitor Class Class Patrol Cruiser  (SSDS)
* Designed by: Long Yards, John Long <jlong@wilmington.net>     
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -    5
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -    6
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -    5 
*     EFFICIENCY              -    3
*     UNUSUALNESS             -    6
*
This ship has a little to low maneuver drive, should be 4Gs.
I'm not sure the 3J is needed and maybe this should be dropped
to 2J and more defensive armament put in. Like the large 
sickbay and the emergency low berths. Also like the hangar 
facilities. High price and overly large cargo space. Also 
lacks troops.

**************************************************
* Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser (SSDS)
* Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  4
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  4
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  8
*     EFFICIENCY              -  4
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  1
*
I design that is really inovative. Like the mission bays and the high
armor. But this design is really not what I see as a patrol cruiser.
The high G-rating is an overkill. Not enough offensive or defensive
capabilities. And still it has a very high cost. Also lacks hangar
space.

**************************************************
*
* Surefire Class Patrol Cruiser                                         
* Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Naval Architects, Inc., Sylea.
* Martin F C Pickett <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  6
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  8
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  7
*     EFFICIENCY              -  6
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  5
*
Nice cost, maybe a little to small a vessel. Nice offensive
weaponry. But thats the good points. To low a maneuver drive,
low armor and poor defesive capabilities. To small a hangar,
no troops, and a very high crew for such a small ship.
Maybe one of the lasers should go, to make room for a meson screen
or more maneuver capabilites.

**************************************************
*
* X-TEK PC-1 "Drakken" Class Patrol Cruiser
* (QSDS1.5, SSDS/FF&S for Hull and Masking)
* Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -   7 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -   5
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -   8
*     EFFICIENCY              -   6
*     UNUSUALNESS             -   6
*
Another to small a vessel for my taste. Lacks offensive
power (a QSDS flaw). Good armor but lacks the supirior 
defesive capabilities. Needs a nuclear damper. Lacks 
hangar and troops so no costum checks available. 
I really don't see this ship performing as a patrol
cruiser. maybe a large scout, but then it also lacks
a refining plant for wilderness fueling.

**************************************************
*
* Fiadhaine Enterprises Presents:
* Geanna Class  Patrol Cruiser ( SSDS )
*       Designed by: Brian A. Howard <bruadh@southwest.net>
*                                       
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  8
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  8
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  6
*     EFFICIENCY              -  6
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  6
*
Extremly high crew for such a vessel. What do they all do?
The fighter carried is great but I think the main ship should
have more fire power to assist the fighters and soften up the 
enemy. There is also a lack of defensive supiriority as the 
design specs called for, but better than some of the others.
Nice cost, nice armor and great auxilery craft facilities.

**************************************************
* 
* Generica Starships Model 45212 - Patrol Cruiser (QSDS)
* Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  4
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  5
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  5
*     EFFICIENCY              -  5
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  5
*
This is a ship I somewhat like. Good solid offensive weaponry.
Good maneuver capabilities. Good defensive armament, do it lacks
the nuclear dampers. Great sensor suits. The QSDS thingy strikes
again on the armor which needless to say is to low.
The hangar facilites should be a little larger to allow for 
costum checks. But overall a fair, solid design. 

**************************************************
*
* The Torden class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS and FF&S for hull design) 
* Bertling Construction Company
* Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
*     EFFICIENCY              -
*     UNUSUALNESS             -
*
This is my design so I will not rate this.

**************************************************
*
* New Victoria Guardian-class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
* Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
* 
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  4
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  4
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  6
*     EFFICIENCY              -  5
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  4
*
A nice and thought through design. Good offensive weapons
and a solid maneuver capability. Lacks the supirior defensive
armament the design specs called for. The ship needs a couple
of nuclear dampers and a better armor (a QSDS thing).
The cost is great but there is a very high crew cost involved
in this ship. The extra craft is good although I'm not sure
I would have gone with the gig. Includes troops which is a pluss. 

**************************************************
*
* Ship/Class Name & Type: "Tlaxcala" class Patrol Cruiser
* Ce Acatl's April THUDDD entry - please confirm receipt
* Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -   3
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -   4
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -   5
*     EFFICIENCY              -   4
*     UNUSUALNESS             -   2
*
This would have been a great design if it didn't fall through
on the defensive side. Only two sandcasters is a little low
together with a 20 armor rating (again a QSDS flaw). Very 
good offensive capabilities although the choice of a bay is
a unusual one. The hangar facilities and troops are as called
for in a customs situation. The cost is good for such a capable
vessel. Nice work. 

**************************************************
*
* Crimson class Patrol Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
* Submitted By:   Aurelian Industries, via
* Steven Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  3
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  3
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  2
*     EFFICIENCY              -  1
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  2
*
A very good design which only has a few flaws. The armor is a 
little low (a QSDS flaw), and the lack of a hangar and troops.
Aside from this this is a great vessel for patrol missions.
Nice work!

**************************************************
*
* transRift Engineering Corporation
* Archangel Class Patrol Cruiser
* J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  8
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  9
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  5
*     EFFICIENCY              -  7
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  5
*
This ship is in my eyes broken. Sorry. The weapons use way
to low power. To get this good an offensive kick and only 
have 750 Mw of power must be wrong. I also would loose
a couple of sandcasters for a meson screen and a few nuclear
dampers. Again this is a ship that lacks a hangar and troops.

**************************************************
*
* Erlir Class Patrol Cruiser (Type PC) 
* (QSDS 1.5, The Big Hull List & SSDS)
* Chris Cox <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          -  2
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     -  2
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS -  2
*     EFFICIENCY              -  3
*     UNUSUALNESS             -  4
*
This is a very good design and I am a fan of Chris' work.
Good offensive kick. Nice defensive armament, again QSDS
ruin somewhat because of the armor. Lacks the hangar and
troops. Also a very pricy ship. As with the mercenary
cruiser I think this ship maybe is a class above the 
patrol cruiser, Chris. But very nice work (especially the
3D-picture).

**************************************************
*
* FSY Bludgeon-class Patrol Cruiser (SSDS Beta .pdf)
* Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 8  
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 7
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 9
*     EFFICIENCY              - 5
*     UNUSUALNESS             - 6
*
Well, I'm not sure i dislike this ship as much as Mr. Clark.
There is a great many things missing on this ship. Needed
to make room for the offensive weaponry no doubt. This is
not a patrol cruiser but more a system defense boat, 
designed to lay dormant until a threat comes along and BOOM.
It fires moves and fires.  

**************************************************
*
* GSbAG 'Montcalm' Patrol Crusier (SSDS)
* Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
*
*     OVERALL DESIGN          - 6
*     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 7
*     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 5
*     EFFICIENCY              - 4
*     UNUSUALNESS             - 3
*
Again I see a vessel that borders on the patrol cruiser 
class. I see this ship more as a close escort classed ship.
Poor weaponry, poor manueverbility, but great defensive
arament. Especially the 60 armor rating is good. Misses
a hangar and troops for costum checks. The crew and cost 
is also almost outrageous.

**************************************************




Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:16:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Griffen-class SDB

I really enjoyed the Griffen-class SDB posted by Lewis Roberts.  I have a 
few comments:
	I am not sure what use the light laser turrets are intended for.  
Their low penetration means that they cannot do real damage to most 
military ships, even fighters.  The fact that they are described as not 
capable of being controlled locally means that they are also not very 
good for missile defense since the 2 MFDs devoted to them means only two 
missiles could be targeted.  Though I suppose the missile MFDs could be 
redeployed to control laser turrets.  
	Only 3 missile barbettes are installed, with a total of 15 ready 
missiles, but 5 missile MFDs are available.  Only 4 MFDs are necessary to 
control 15 missiles, so what is the extra for?
	On the subject of local control, you state that there is no local 
control for the turrets, but all the turrets you use, as far as I can 
tell, are standard turrets which include workstations.  If you do not 
want to have workstations in your turrets then you have more room 
available to up the power or ROF of those turrets.
	You have 28 crew but only 25 workstations.  Are the other 
workstations in the turrets, or are you carrying extra crew?
	I agree that the Griffen is a real improvement over the Dragon, 
but I have a few suggestions for the Griffen mark II. :-)
	Replace the 4 light lasers with two heavy lasers and 2 of the 1 
ton PD lasers the design for which I've emailed you before.  This will 
give your lasers an offensive punch and simultaneously improve your 
anti-missile defense all while only costing you 2 tons!  If you want, you 
can take out the workstation, and each laser and MFD is only .5 tons.  Of 
course, you still need to add the bridge stations for the MFDs.	
	Replace the 3 missile barbettes with one or two custom missile
bays.  This will increase you salvo size from 15 to 20, so as to take
advantage of all 5 missile MFDs.  It will also give you easy access to
your missile reloads if you put them all in reload cradles.  As it stands,
manually reloading the barbettes takes 1 hour, so the Griffen cannot fire
an immediate follow-up salvo.  This change takes up only a little more
space but greatly improves the Griffens offensive capabilities. 

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:31:43 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1258(off topic)

> > R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his 
> hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the 
> civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win. 
> On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming

> as it is essentially an improvised weapon.

Pro-South Group of South African equip Lee's army with AK-74 and Lots of
Ammo plus lots of MREs.
Troops walking in line into the kill zone from a AK-74 is going to be very
messy. :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:17:05 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

At 15:56 26/04/97 +0000, Garry wrote:
>At 01:13 AM 4/25/97 +0000, Rupert wrote:
>> <snip>
>>The Army boy would stay on their homeworld, and just be part of a smaller
>>army (and envy the equipment of bigger armies :). Just like on earth today.
>>I invisage there being quite a lot of 'lending' and cross training of
>>troops between neighbour systems.
>>
>>The Marines OTOH would be Imperial, with only small local Marine Forces
>>(attached to the System Defence naval force) beloning to the system.
>
>No.  Never keep units where their loyalty to the locals would be greater
>than their loyalty to the government. Tiaenamem Square was a stand off until
>troops from a DIFFERENT ETHNIC region than the protesters were brought in.
>Even Imperial Rome knew this: legions were raised in one area and stationed
>somewhere else. Also why fraternization is discourged. When trouble starts,
>you do not want the troops expected to suppress it to have any cause for
>hesitation.

Nothing I've read about the 3rd Imperium has ever talked about the Army
except in a local (planetary) context. I've assumed from this that they
were local forces, as we know that they exist, and are often quite large.
After all the Imperium only owned the space between planets not the worlds
themselves, and thus didn't need an Army - if they wan't to put down an
insurrection all they had to do was blockade the system until the revolt
collaspsed. During the Rebellion this changed, but even then it would've
been easier to simply use existing forces from a friendly high population
world.

Note that in the later Roman Empire soldier were no longer posted outside
their homeland, partly because it gave them a more personal reason to
fight, and partly because it was cheaper. I note that at the time of the
rebellion the Domian capitals had thier own elite Marine forces and
dedicated Ducal guards (not surprising in a feudal state). This sugests to
me that by the 1110's most Imperial service personnel, even in the
frontline fleets, weren't being posted outside their own sector. The
personnel in the subsector and reserve fleets probaly didn't move out of
their own subsectors until the Rebellion started. This policy, orginally
introduced for cost-cutting reasons, allied with the greater autonomy of
Domains and sectors made the Rebellion/Second Civil War/Final War
Inevitable, IMHO.

It's ironic that the decenralization of power, introduced after the 1st
Civil War to aviod the piss-poor performance that percipitated the Civil
War, made the next one inevitable.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 19:27:53 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

On 04/26/97 at 12:41 PM,  JayStr <jaystr@best.com> said:

> First off: Everyone except the fighter partisans sneer at the idea of
> fighters going up against capital warships, 

Nobody is ever going to confuse me with a fighter partisan.

> but has anyone experimented with larger fighters, i.e. those up to
> 90 tons?  These could carry heavy batteries able to engage larger
> ships at range.  

Ah!  I see we have a difference in definition here.  To me a fighter is 10
to 40 tons, and next to worthless against capital ships.  Once you get up
to 60+ tons you are into Boats! ;->

> F'rinstance, picture several dozen 90-tonners, all carrying 50-ton
> missile bays and all ganging up on the same target; they're harder
> to hit than you are, and you have to go after them one at a
> time....  

Against small warships of the Frigite and Destroyer class your missile
boats have a good chance.  Against Crusier and larger classes you'd have a
*problem*...but so would any small warships.

Frankly, I don't see the advantage of 80-90 ton Boats over better armed and
armored 200-400 ton Boats, though.  There won't be a big difference in
price and there *will* be a big difference in performance.

> Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
> his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught? How do you handle the
> to-hit possibilities, and how do you handle damage? by the mass of the
> fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's?

Yes, but it will most likely be ballistic long before it reaches it's
target.  Fairly easy to avoid.

> What if the PC packs it full of high explosives and
> command-detonates it after he ejects? 

Wouldn't help any with hitting the target and not much with damage. A 10-20
ton mass at 6g is a pretty big bang all by its lonesome.

> a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
> warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
> then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
> How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?

Assuming you can:  1. keep it under *power* all the way to your target
while the enemy fleet blows it's drives away; 2. keep it under *control* at
long range and with the enemy fleet blowing it's radio recievers away; and
3. keep it intact while the enemy fleet is concentrating it's fire on this
rouge ship, then your destroyer *might* be effective.  I'd guess it would
be economically and militarily inefficent.

> Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
> what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
> (an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the Trav
> equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary targets
> from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be available that
> replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. 

Expensive, but very doable.  


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1261
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1262



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Quebecois
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Ship Sizes
Re: Precious materials
Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
Sport in the Imperium
SSDS Anomalies
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261
Re: Some Technical Questions
Giving the south AK47s
Re: Bigass interceptors and suicide fighters
Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
Re: The Army vs. The Marines
Re: Giving the south AK47s
Re: Ancient Rosettes
Re: Starship Combat
Revised THUDDD Design - Generica Starships
Re: The Army vs. The Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:01:31 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Quebecois

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:13:08 -0700
> > From: Danny_M._Moody@mailhost.bridge.com (Danny M. Moody)
> >
> > >>       But enough; I promise to avoid this topic like it was a
> > >>Virus-infested frac-cee rock decorated with Foss art duking it out with
> > >>fighters in a heat-sink dimension while using an alternative task system :).
> > >
> > >But, could such a scenario happen in a Feudal Technocracy?
> >
> > Only if ruled by a TED.
> 
> And not just *any* TED, either.  It'd take a lesbian francophone TED,
> carrying her own baby in utero.

	But only if it was the love child of the Revered Disciple and 
Missionary of Grandfather --- Elvis.

	Hey, at least it'd explain all the references to flying saucers.

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:12:43 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:16:30 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> > I'll theorise then...
> >
> > Since the obgect of a defensive damper is to prevent an explosive nuclear
> > reaction, then directing them at vehicles would perhaps do little more than
> > slow them down a bit.
> >
> > However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being developed to
> > stop power plant nuclear cores.
> 
> No, it doesn't.  I don't really have a problem with this, either.  It
> is just a creative use of a device outside of its normal role.  It
> will only work for fission powerplants, however.  Fusion operates on a
> different principle.

	Yes, they work by compressing and heating the H atoms enough to 
overcome the repulsive forces. But here's two rather different 
suggestions:

	1) Build a device which amplified these reuplsive forces, kinda 
like a reverse damper. Basically, if I can push, why can't I pull? This 
would at least slow down the reaction, if not stop it completely.

	2) Would projecting a damper field into a fusion engine increase 
it's efficency? After all, you'd be amplifying the force that holds 'em 
together, and since you're trying to shove 'em together anyway...

Ryan Christensen	liefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 21:52:58 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ship Sizes

On 04/26/97 at 02:32 PM,  russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell) said:

> >Free Trader (200ton/2800stere)
> >
> >    One possible configuration:
> >
> >    40m long   131 ft
> >    10m wide    33 ft
> >     7m high    23 ft
> >
> >    This is a two story building!

> So is the C - 130 Herculies. The F - 14 Tomcat isn't much smaller.

> I won't even get into the C - 5, the Arado Condor, or the B - 36!

I wasn't disagreeing about the size of the *smaller* ships being the size
of large airplanes, just giving some dimensions for comparison.  BTW, I
don't include the wings in my body volume calculations.  The wingspan on an
Airframe 200 ton ship, like I configured above..even allowing for a lifting
body shape would be (not recalculating..just estimating) about 40 meters.

Personally, I do better when I can visualize internal spaces in relation to
buildings.  I can walk around, inside and outside, similar sized buildings
and get a feel for what the ship would be like.  I can stand on the
sidewalk and visualize that 2 story apartment building coming in for a
landing...*that* impresses me, and that's a small ship!  Yes, "Fat Albert"
impresses me too. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:37:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Precious materials

Leonard Erickson)

(Responding to another)
> In any case, Traveller *way* undersestimates the availability of
> elements at their tech levels. You just turn rock into plasma, then
> sort the atoms by atomic weight using magnetic fields (a sort of
> overgrown mass spectrograph)

THis was intentional. We thought it would make a better game.

Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:36:54 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

Eris Reddoch wrote:
 
> Against small warships of the Frigite and Destroyer class your missile
> boats have a good chance.  Against Crusier and larger classes you'd have a
> *problem*...but so would any small warships.
> 
> Frankly, I don't see the advantage of 80-90 ton Boats over better armed and
> armored 200-400 ton Boats, though.  There won't be a big difference in
> price and there *will* be a big difference in performance.

	The only advantage would be if they're non-jump capable, and using thruster 
plates. Then they can pack more guns and power per volume than a comparable jump ship, 
and force the bad guys to engage multiple targets. And if they had a crew of 2 (one 
guy to operate the snadcasters, too), and decent armor...
 
>
> > a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
> > warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
> > then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
> > How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?
> 
> Assuming you can:  1. keep it under *power* all the way to your target
> while the enemy fleet blows it's drives away; 2. keep it under *control* at
> long range and with the enemy fleet blowing it's radio recievers away; and
> 3. keep it intact while the enemy fleet is concentrating it's fire on this
> rouge ship, then your destroyer *might* be effective.  I'd guess it would
> be economically and militarily inefficent.

	So you take your scrap-heap garbage scow, stick a couple of big, surplus 
missle fusion rockets on the back, add some aluminum foil on a wire frame to make it 
look impressive, and send it on it's way. While the Bad Guys hit it with everything 
they've got (because you've been quiety leaking the fact that you're going to use such 
ships as big-ass KKMs), the rest of your fleet gets free shots. Plus, they're not 
shootuing at the targets that actually matter, and what happens if it does get 
through?

> > Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
> > what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
> > (an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the Trav
> > equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary targets
> > from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be available that
> > replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead.
> 
> Expensive, but very doable.

	And very Death Star-esque. Interstellar terror weapons....hmm, gonna have to 
work on that one. After all, my meson sniper rifle got upstaged by the meson UZI of 
doom...

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:07:45 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Sport in the Imperium

Thinking about the recent posts about the "social glues" of the Imperium (eg the 
socializing influence of Imperial institutions such as the Navy and Marines), the 
Imperium may activly encourage sporting contacts between it's member worlds.

Firstly, it is something that the poorer and newer worlds in the Imperium can 
participate in on more-or-less even terms - an antidote to the "the Imperium exists for 
the rich worlds and megacorporations" type sentiment.

Secondly, it provides a focus for interworld and interregion rivalries.

Thirdly, it provides a great source of adventure hooks ... for example, a party with a 
starship may be approached about transporting a sports team from it's source world to 
the All-Corridor Athletics Meet. Two jumps before the ship reaches the sector capital, a 
shady individual offers the ships engineer a large sum of money to make sure the team 
does not arrive in time for final registration ...

The lines I am thinking of is how cricket and rugby became and were used as a source of 
unity within the British Empire in the late 19th to mid-Twentieth century ... look 
also at (for example) the 1887 Australian Aboriginal tour of England, or the way the 
West Indies cricket team is the only pan-Caribbean institution to survive inter-island 
rivalries.

Ian Whitchurch

PS, while we are doing the UPP thing ... 26 year old O2 Bureaucrat ... 445AA7 ... 
Liason-2, Recruiting-2, Admin-1, Foil-1, Long Blade-1, History-1, Economics-1, 
Computer-1,Oratory-1

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:59:08 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: SSDS Anomalies

I was trying to build a starship using SSDS and ran into a few questions.
Suggestions are welcome.

The Controls and Electronics section says "for Standard automation,
multiply the values listed by 5%". They have got to mean multiply the
values by 105%, or increase by 5%, unless Standard automation really is 20
times cheaper than Low automation.

The sandcaster table gives a "Beam Reduction" figure that is not explained
anywhere that I can find. It is not mentioned in the Basic or Role-Playing
combat rules. For some incomprehensible reason this figure uses d20s, which
are not used anywhere else in the game. Is this a TNE thing?

Figuring out the number of crew is ridiculously overcomplicated. First each
ship component gives a "crew factor" which I multiply by a "control
modifier" based on tech level, depending on what "category" the crew factor
is. These are divided by an "automation divisor", which differs for every
category. The rules to calculate drive crew are incomprehensible. First,
the drive tables give crew factors, but the crew requirements say to base
the crew on "the mass of the drives". Then the sample calculation uses the
drive's _volume_ in cubic meters; the crew factors and drive mass are never
used! People have actually been designing ships with these "rules"?

Look, every component is already listed separately in each category by tech
level; is it too much to expect IG to do these wacky calculations
beforehand and actually put the required crew instead of a "crew factor"
for each component? And to include space for engineering workstations in
the drive and powerplant table, as is done for gunnery workstations? It
would also be more convenient to normalize the automation divisor so
Standard automation has a crew of 1. All these factors, divisors, and
modifiers are unexplained magic numbers, so it's not as if the GM can
actually use any of them for making rulings.

As for the stateroom/bunk controversy, I have already weighed in on the
side of individual small staterooms. 28m^3 is no hotel suite, especially if
you figure about half of that goes to passageway and common area. In my
deck plans a small stateroom is about the size of a pullman cabin, which is
pretty cramped if you are expected to live there for a week. Some posters
have suggested using double-occupancy small staterooms. A small stateroom
uses only the space of two bunk stations, so this "compromise" is no
advantage to the crew. Other posters have claimed off-duty crew will be
doing maintenance and training. If they don't have staterooms where will
they do this? The rules have no provisions for training rooms or assembly
halls. Sure, individual designers can add them in, but without some rulings
by IG there is no way to decide their requirements or effectiveness.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:12:55 -0700
From: Edward Fok <efok@ni.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261

At 21:35 4/26/97 -0400, Traveller-digest wrote:
>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:41:50 -0700
>From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
>Subject: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
>
>First off: Everyone except the fighter partisans sneer at the idea of

[sniped]

>Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
>his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught? How do you handle the
>to-hit possibilities, and how do you handle damage? by the mass of the
>fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's? What if the PC packs it
>full of high explosives and command-detonates it after he ejects? What
>if a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
>warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
>then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
>How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?

***techie alert***

Take the speed in m/second at which they meet, square it, and multiply it by
the half the mass of the fighter in tons.  Divide the results by 5000 and
you have a rough estimate of the energy released in equivlant kg of TNT
going off when the fighter hits.

I'd say you can make a table of this with mass in tons along the Y axis and
velocity along the X axis.  This will let you make a handy table for your
crazy players.  If I get really bored, I might even put one together.

>Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
>what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
>(an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
>Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
>targets from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be
>available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?

Basically vulnerabilities (big missile, big target, easy to hit), and cost
effectiveness (big missile, expensive to build, need defenses, expensive
jump drives).

>
>Thanks in advance for the feedback.

No Prob.
Ed (formerly Caffeine Achiever/That Alternate Materials List guy)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:12:55 -0700
From: Edward Fok <efok@ni.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261

At 21:35 4/26/97 -0400, Traveller-digest wrote:
>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:41:50 -0700
>From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
>Subject: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
>
>First off: Everyone except the fighter partisans sneer at the idea of

[sniped]

>Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
>his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught? How do you handle the
>to-hit possibilities, and how do you handle damage? by the mass of the
>fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's? What if the PC packs it
>full of high explosives and command-detonates it after he ejects? What
>if a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
>warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
>then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
>How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?

***techie alert***

Take the speed in m/second at which they meet, square it, and multiply it by
the half the mass of the fighter in tons.  Divide the results by 5000 and
you have a rough estimate of the energy released in equivlant kg of TNT
going off when the fighter hits.

I'd say you can make a table of this with mass in tons along the Y axis and
velocity along the X axis.  This will let you make a handy table for your
crazy players.  If I get really bored, I might even put one together.

>Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
>what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
>(an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
>Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
>targets from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be
>available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?

Basically vulnerabilities (big missile, big target, easy to hit), and cost
effectiveness (big missile, expensive to build, need defenses, expensive
jump drives).

>
>Thanks in advance for the feedback.

No Prob.
Ed (formerly Caffeine Achiever/That Alternate Materials List guy)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:14:57 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Some Technical Questions

>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:58:03 -0600
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>
>At 11:16 pm 04/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
...
>>However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being developed to
>>stop power plant nuclear cores.
...
>	Likewise, I see no major problem with allowing the use of NDs on
>another
>form of nuclear bomb, the fusion reactor. Damping the nuclear force will
>reduce the power output, while enhancing it will increase it. In fact, I
>expect TL12+ fusion reactors to USE damping technology to control the reactor.


I ruled similarly, and also ruled that since nuclear dampers fell off
radically with range, the ND every power plant included to moderate the
reaction were far stronger than needed to override virtually any outside
source, but were only effective for a few meters outside the reaction
vessel.

Enough tech could override this, so a TL12 ship could be captured by a TL15
pirate fairly easily in this way.  Further, the dampers were only
operational if the power plant was actually running

I did have group working on a self destruct system for thier ship which
would use those immensely powerful dampers to make a chunk of superdense
explode in a delightful spray of high energy gammas.  They never finished
the device, but it kept them worried for months when they found out someone
had stolen thier notes and working papers.

Scott
Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:21:20 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Giving the south AK47s

>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
>From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>

>I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his
>hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the
>civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win.
>On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming
>as it is essentially an improvised weapon.

This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
similarly named Harry Turtledove?

There was a Harry Turtledove story called Guns of the South about a group
of South African folk who bring back AK-47s to help the south win so that
they have a slave owning power to befriend in the far future.  Fairly well
written, I thought

There is a lively thread going on about in on rec.arts.sf.written right now.

Scott


- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 00:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bigass interceptors and suicide fighters

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
>>what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
>>(an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
>>Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
>>targets from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be
>>available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?

>The time factor.  It'll be hours from jump emergence to impact.  Also,
>nothing in space is stationary, that's why we need astrogators.  Everything
>is moving relative to everything else.  Send an unmanned missle through, 
>and there's a good chance it will sail by its' target.

Why, if it has a good guidance computer it should be able to easily hit
any planet in the system?  We are talking TL 12+ computers here.  Of
course, I'd want the ICBM jump missle up to 1,000 kps or above when it
emerged from jump space.  Otherwise, it would be far to easy to pick off. 
Then again, it might have a moderate evade program and could pull 12
uncompensated Gs w/o harm... 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 03:01:58 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

On 04/26/97 at 10:36 PM,  Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com> said:

> > Frankly, I don't see the advantage of 80-90 ton Boats over better armed and
> > armored 200-400 ton Boats, though.  There won't be a big difference in
> > price and there *will* be a big difference in performance.

> 	The only advantage would be if they're non-jump capable, and using
> thruster  plates. Then they can pack more guns and power per volume than
> a comparable jump ship,  and force the bad guys to engage multiple
> targets. And if they had a crew of 2 (one  guy to operate the
> snadcasters, too), and decent armor...

Just because a ship is over 100 tons doesn't mean it has a jump drive in
it. There's no reason you couldn't build 100,000ton non-jump capable
battleboats. 

I'm not against missile or gun boats, even very small ones. I just think
you're going to need bigger boats to do what you want.  Build 200-400ton
Boats, leave the jump drive out and you have *even* more room for missiles,
guns, thrusters, power, and that decent armor you're going to need.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 08:14:32 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:56:39 +0000, you wrote:

> No.  Never keep units where their loyalty to the locals would be greater
> than their loyalty to the government. Tiaenamem Square was a stand off until
> troops from a DIFFERENT ETHNIC region than the protesters were brought in.

Unless the locals happen to *be* the government.  Like South Korean
troops defending South Korea, compared to UN troops doing the same.

> Even Imperial Rome knew this: legions were raised in one area and stationed
> somewhere else. Also why fraternization is discourged. When trouble starts,
> you do not want the troops expected to suppress it to have any cause for
> hesitation.

This only makes sense if you are dealing with an *internal* problem.
When attacked by *outside* forces, troops defending the land of their
families tend to do so with more enthusiasm than those defending the
territory of someone they do not know.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:02:07 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Giving the south AK47s

At 23:21 26/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
>>From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
>
>>I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his
>>hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the
>>civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win.
>>On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming
>>as it is essentially an improvised weapon.
>
>This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
>war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
>similarly named Harry Turtledove?

It was definatly a Harry Harrison novel, as I remember it from about 10
years ago (can't recall its name, though). IIRC it was more of a mystery or
manhunt story than a war story, but I'm not sure.

>Scott

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:20:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ancient Rosettes

In mail you write:

> On 1997-04-23 23:29 thus spake K.C. Komosky:
>>  Somewhere in my vast 12 year collection of Traveller material, I know that 
>>there is some small reference to an Ancient-made rosette structure (four or 
>>five worlds, in the same orbit, at equal distances from each other) that is 
>>somewhere in the Vargr Extents.
>>
>>But I can't find it. Can anyone give me any more information about this 
>>wonder of the Ancient world?
>
> If you have Vilani and Vargr, page 65 explains the hidden pocket universe 
> at Lair which contains the rosette. Apparently a gas giant called 
> Fyutinyu by the Ancients was rotated out of normal space along with 7 of 
> its moons. They ignited the gas giant. The pocket universe is connected 
> to our universe through a number of portals, located on and around Lair
>
> Even now, the portals are occasionally used by the inhabitants of the 
> Fyutinyu universe and their robotic servants....

Different rosette. That one is "hidden". The one others have mentioned
is out in normal space. In the Tireen system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:26:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

In mail you write:

> Leonard, I must not get out much because that was one of the best TML posts
> I have read. The paired X-Y and X-Z maps are a brilliant idea. Thanks, I'll
> look for "BattleFleet Mars".

Lots of luck, I think it's been out of print since SPI got bought out
by TSR.

> I think an X-Y hex map and a rectangular X-Z map would work perfectly. I
> prefer hex maps because there is a finer granularity of facings and no
> awkward diagonals to deal with.

Do note that the "staggered square" map *is* a hex map. All you do is
change the angles a little.

> A rectangular X-Z map is fine because, as
> you point out, one only has to deal with the Z vector. Also, on a planet
> one can't (drastically) change your Z coordinate so the same rules and map
> could be used for planetary combat by eliminating the X-Z map. This is
> good. I like it. Is there any way to encourage IG to use this idea?

It occurs to me that this will also work well for the 3d-starmaps folks.
You just have a regular sub-sector map, and an X-Z map (actually Y-Z in
this case).  

BTW, I have another old SPI game that I consider "usable" with
Traveller. Outreach has a scale of 1200 ly (400 parsecs) per hex. So I
can use the map of the galaxy with Traveller if I ever need a "grand
strategic" map. It's the only thing I can think of that would show the
Zhodani core expeditions. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Revised THUDDD Design - Generica Starships

  Based on my evaluation of the other designs and the discussion that
followed my comments, here is a revised design for the patrol cruiser:

Generica Starships Type 45213 Patrol Cruiser (QSDS)

Tons: 600 Std (Cylinder Airframe)		Cost: 588.1 MCr
Crew: 34		High/Mid Pass: 2/0	Low: 0
Cargo: 4.4 Std		Controls: Military	TL: 12

8 Size				2 Jump Drive (120 Std/20% Fuel)
				4 Manuever (Thrust Plate, 602 MW)
4x Laser (+4)1/4-4-3-2		2000 MW Power Plant
2x Missile (+4)			141.4 Fuel (Scoop 240, Refine 3)
				4 Meson Screen
				4 Sandcaster (30 Cans)
				4 Nuclear Damper
20T Minimal Hanger		A16 P5 J16 Sensors
				20 Armor, 19 Structure

Crew: 4 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Manuever, 13 Gunners, 1 Screens
      2 Aux Craft Crew, 4 Marines, 4 Command, 1 Steward, 1 Medical

Notes:
  Design is all QSDS, with hull from Wildstar's Big Book of Hulls (the
hull did not get the 25% discount when total cost was figured).  The Hull
is rated to 6G, so more extreme manuevers can be made in Atmosphere.  The
Missile turrets are linked by MFD.  In addition to the equipment listed
above, the ship carries a TL 12 Advanced Communications system and a 2 bed
sickbay.  

  The command crew is in four large staterooms, the crew in 13 small
staterooms, and the gunners and marines in 17 bunks.

Comments:
  This is a simple derivative of the Type 45212 I submitted for the THUDD
contest.  With an additional 100 tons, this design includes a larger
hanger, 4 nuclear dampers, ships troops, and some additional cargo space.
This addresses most of the criticisms leveled against this design, and
make it more capable.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:46:26 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

At 11:17 PM 4/26/97 +0000, Rupert wrote:
> <snip>
>It's ironic that the decenralization of power, introduced after the 1st
>Civil War to aviod the piss-poor performance that percipitated the Civil
>War, made the next one inevitable.
>
>R. Boleyn
> <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
>TNE to the core
>
>
True, very true. No matter what you do, what law you make or process you
establish, eventually it will be proven that it will cause as much or more
problem than what you were trying to fix. 

No good deed goes unpunished.

That's why the biggest source of adventures is the consequences of the
actions the players themselves take. 

Garry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1262
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1263



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1258
Beltwatch Starsystem Design - Comments, Please
Re: The Army vs. The Marines
The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Giving the south AK47s
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Product Question
Jump Missiles (Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1262
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: Molecular Edges
Re: The clever GM
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Re: Product Question
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Metator Upgrade
[none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 13:56 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1258

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9704261719.A28604-0100000@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>

<< I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his 
hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the 
civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win. 
On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming 
as it is essentially an improvised weapon. >>

_Rebel in Time_

The reliability of any gun has as much to do with manufacture as design.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 06:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Beltwatch Starsystem Design - Comments, Please

  I am finalizing my ideas about the Paradise system, the setting for my
Beltwatch PBEM.  Stimulated by the recent discussion about asteroid belts,
and wanting an exciting and dangerous place for the players to be in, yet
with a reason for people to be there, I came up with the following general
description.   Comments and criticism welcome.


History:

  First discovered and explored during the First Imperium, the Paradise
system was dominated by two main features.  One, an unstable star with a
high rate of solar prominances, variations in total output, and other odd
behaviours.  The star's output results in considerable interference with
radio communications and sensor readings, making navigation difficult. 
Two, an extremely large and tectonically unstable planet in the life zone. 
This planet had an insideous atmosphere, as well as high gravity and
unstable geology.  Lanthanum was present in significant quantities,
however, making it a tempting place.  Declared an Imperial Naval Reserve,
the system was undeveloped in industrial terms due to technological
limitation during the First Imperium, and was only visited occasionally by
scientific teams studying the star. 

  During the Rule of Man, the Reserve system broke down under the pressure
of commerical development, and the Paradise system was one of the Naval
Reserves sold off to finance government operations.  Several unsuccessful
attempts were made to mine Lanthanum in the system, but the technical
challenges proved too great.  Well before the Long Night, the system was
essentially abandoned, again with only the occasional visit by scientific
researchers. 

  There were no further recorded contacts with the system until -521, when
a Sylean survey team arrived.  They found a system that had been much
changed.  The Paradise system had encountered intersteller debris,
including (apparently) an object large enough to shatter the major planet
in the system after a glancing impact.  The resulting asteroid belt proved
to be a potentially rich source of lanthanum and other metals, but with
new hazards.  The young asteroid belt has very high densities in the areas
with the greatest mining opportunities, and there are large numbers of
asteroids that orbit out of the general plane.  This, combined with other
interstellar objects still passing through the system and the
perturbations caused by the still unstable orbital mechanics of the
debris, makes for very difficualt navigation. 


Description for M0:

  There are two major industries in the Paradise system.  One is obvious -
belters mining the system for metals, particualarly Lanthanum.  The second
is less obvious - tourism.  The combination of orbital debris, clouds of
dust and gas, as well as the highly variable star and its solar
prominances, makes for a spectacular show.  The minor danger as a
navigational problem makes the system even more exciting as a destination. 

  The inner system consists of several small rockballs, the innermost of
which is home to a small scientific research station.  The main system is
the belt, with the major population center at Paradise Home, a former
mining colony that is now a high-end resort and base for the IISS Rescue
Service for the system.  The outer system contains three gas giants, the
largest of which has several moons.  A mass driver at the innermost gas
giant delivers hydrogen to the belt.  The main starport is near the mass
driver - it is really just a transit station since trade with the belt is
carried out primarily by specially designed couriers for insurance
reasons. 

  The Paradise system is best known as the setting of the entertainment
tri-vids "Beltwatch" and "Beltwatch Knights," the former being one of the
most widely watched programs in the Imperium.  :-) 

 ______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 13:15:00 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

At 08:14 AM 4/27/97 +0000, jlindsay wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:56:39 +0000, you wrote:
>
><snip my comments>
>
>Unless the locals happen to *be* the government.  Like South Korean
>troops defending South Korea, compared to UN troops doing the same.
>
><snip my comments> 
>
>This only makes sense if you are dealing with an *internal* problem.
>When attacked by *outside* forces, troops defending the land of their
>families tend to do so with more enthusiasm than those defending the
>territory of someone they do not know.
>
Correct. What optimizes effectiveness of troops for one situation can
minimize their effectiveness for another. Consider the French optimization
of the military for another WWI type war with Germany. Surprise! In M:0
which will Cleon be most concerned about? Will the 3I need the army to
defend worlds against the not yet assimilated pocket empires? Or will the
army need to help pacify the locals of a recently integrated world. Locally
raised troops will be great for the first, but will have less enthusiasm for
shooting at their cousins. Equip a battlion of locals with ABD & FGMPs for
defense against an outside invader and then find out that, over the next few
months,  various events and effects on their families slowly convince then
that the Imperium was not a good thing to join; so they become rebels. Well
armed rebels.

In general we have a fairly well established policy for the Imperial Navy
and Marines. What we lack is clarity about what the purpose, procedures and
methods the Imperial Army has. Given that the Imperium claims only the space
between worlds, does it really even need an army?  If interplanetary travel
and trade is the the main reason for the Imperium, with local planetary
politics left up to the locals, then enforcement of Imperial policy would be
effective by embargos and blockages. If you need some SHORT TERM objective
on a planet's surface, you have the Marines. Otherwise, you punish the world
by withdrawing trade privileges. Maybe make an example out of a city or two,
from a safe orbital height. Then let the locals stew in their own collapsing
economies and weight for then to come back into the fold.

Does the Imperium need an army?

Garry
      

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:30:40 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space =
between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles =
on up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants =
if it owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its =
prime had over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium =
only claimed the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to =
tax .... So on and so on ...

I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while =
member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they =
are still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member =
world, still has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the =
Imperium.=20

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:42:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gordon W. Rycroft" <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Giving the south AK47s

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:02:07 +1200 Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> 
wrote:
>At 23:21 26/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
>>>From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>

>>>I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his
>>>hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the
>>>civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win.
>>>On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming
>>>as it is essentially an improvised weapon.

>>This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
>>war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
>>similarly named Harry Turtledove?

>It was definatly a Harry Harrison novel, as I remember it from about 10
>years ago (can't recall its name, though). IIRC it was more of a mystery or
>manhunt story than a war story, but I'm not sure.

Check out Turtledove's "Guns of the South" anyway.  Even if it isn't the novel 
you're thinking of it's a damn good read.  I have read a couple of novels 
concerning Racists time ttravelling back to the American Civil War... one was 
Turtledove's and the other, whose title and author I don't remember off hand, 
had a black federal agent following the racist back to try and dtop any temporal 
contamination... Does that sound familiar?

Gordon

This Tirade is (c) 1997 G.W.Rycroft, and shall not,
by way  of trade or otherwise, be forwarded, cut-and-pasted,
plagerised, or otherwise circulated without the author's
prior consent  unless you really feel like it...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:11:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

>It likely won't, since the damper is not a beam weapon but an energy field
>which surrounds the ship.

 That would make them pretty useless as nuclear missile defense right?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:05:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gordon W. Rycroft" <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:07:45 -0700 Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au> wrote:
>Thinking about the recent posts about the "social glues" of the Imperium (eg the 
>socializing influence of Imperial institutions such as the Navy and Marines), the 
>Imperium may activly encourage sporting contacts between it's member worlds.

Interworld sporting contests would have to be fairly localised, given the travelling time between 
systems. Even if you had a four year cycle like the Olympics or various World Cups, you're still 
talking hefty road trips. If there's a knockout stage, it would either have to be held in one place 
or there would be immense gaps while the results filter back  to the sporting federations HQ and 
there could easily be the problem of a team setting out for a fixture whilst not being aware of 
who their opponants might be, because they haven't seen the results of the "other semi-final."

There's also the problem of home-field advantage. Miami travelling to Green Bay in December 
would be nothing compared to a belter team travelling to a high grav world!

>Firstly, it is something that the poorer and newer worlds in the Imperium can 
>participate in on more-or-less even terms - an antidote to the "the Imperium exists for 
>the rich worlds and megacorporations" type sentiment.

Not neccessarily.  Rich worlds buy the talent.  Corrupt governments or megacorporations pour 
funds into sporting excellance.  

>The lines I am thinking of is how cricket and rugby became and were used as a source of 
>unity within the British Empire in the late 19th to mid-Twentieth century ... look 
>also at (for example) the 1887 Australian Aboriginal tour of England, or the way the 
>West Indies cricket team is the only pan-Caribbean institution to survive inter-island 
>rivalries.

Hmm... there are still problems of rivalry within West Indian cricket. When the selectors face 
the choice between a Barbadian and a Jamaican for the final place in a test side, they are 
highly unlikely to pick the Jamaican for a match in Barbados.

A few years ago, when England were due to play a test match in Guyana, many of the local 
Indian community were unhappy that the only player of Guyanese-Indian descent likely to play 
was Mark Ramprakash. (For the benefit of non-cricketing readers, Mark Ramprakash plays for 
England) It was expected to be almost a home match atmosphere for England. It was. The 
match was rained off.

Gordon

This Tirade is (c) 1997 G.W.Rycroft, and shall not,
by way  of trade or otherwise, be forwarded, cut-and-pasted,
plagerised, or otherwise circulated without the author's
prior consent  unless you really feel like it...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:44:52 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Product Question

I was checking around the Imperium Games WP the other day and checked out
the products section. There was a listing in the upcoming products for a
FF&S and a Naval Architects Handbook.

I have heard both titles used for the detailed ship design system. Which is
which and what is the other going to be?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:44:50 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Jump Missiles (Re: Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters)

>The time factor.  It'll be hours from jump emergence to impact.  Also,
>nothing in space is stationary, that's why we need astrogators.  Everything
>is moving relative to everything else.  Send an unmanned missle through, and
>there's a good chance it will sail by its' target.

Little bit of decent AI can solve that problem. This would be useful as a
terror weapon if the launching faction could develop some decent stealth
technology. Either that, or the vessle could jump into the outer expanses of
the system and take several days of flight time to reach it's target powered
down, using minimal energy passive sensors to do slight corrections in
trajectory.

>Of course if you got it up to a decent percentage of light speed, you
>could.. AIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!(thud)(bludgeon)

Here, have an asprin -> 0
:)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:34:43 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1262

> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:21:20 -0700
> From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
> Subject: Giving the south AK47s
> 
> >Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
> >From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
> 
> >I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his
> >hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the
> >civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win.
> >On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming
> >as it is essentially an improvised weapon.
> 
> This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
> war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
> similarly named Harry Turtledove?
Well the actual story was about a black marine working on  security for 
the time machine who goes back to stop him. Its a one way trip so he sets 
after he stops the nutter he helps set up a black only regiment to fight 
in the war.
mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:10:26 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

As I remember, there was a Dragon magazine MANY years back which had an 
article on a sport for Traveller called Gravball.  The exact rules of the 
sport I dont quite remember, but as I recall, it was quite dangerous.

Also, if memory serves, the writer of this article was Marc Miller.  
Maybe he can shed some light on this or correct my memory, but it did 
seem to be ideal for the sort of sport to which you refer.

John
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:55:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Molecular Edges

>> > I hated the depiction of the mono-whip in Johnny Mnemonic.  The only
>> > reason it glowed was to give the audience something to follow.  Yuck.
>> 
>    For what it's worth, I seem to recall that in the original
>short-story, the mono-whip did not glow, and, in fact, they couldn't see
>it.  The narrative rewound and played the scene in slo-mo in order to
>explain what had happened.  I remember it as a great visual moment in the
>story and was extremely disappointed that it wasn't carried through in the
>movie, but then just about everything in that movie was a huge
>disappointment.  William Gibson lost a lot of my respect for writing that
>screenplay (although he got some of it back with _Idoru_, his best work in
>a long time, I thought).

Well, Gibson doesn't deserve all the blame. If they'd shot the film as he'd
written it, the result probably would have been wonderful and brilliant.
But the producers forced him to dumb it down, to cut or and rewrite
anything interesting or even slightly 'artsy'.

In Gibson's original script, for instance, the digital construct of the
dead woman appeared repeatedly throughout the story, making cryptic and
subtle comments on the action, as a kind of virtual 'Greek chorus'. One of
the producers literally screamed into Gibson's face: "What's this?
POETRY?!! We're not paying you to write f*ckin' POETRY!!!" etc., veins
throbbing in his forehead, looking as if he were ready to physically
assault the author. (I heard all this from a good friend of Gibson's, BTW.)

_Johnny Mnemonic_ just goes to show that, in Hollywood, the more money you
throw into a project, the stupider it gets.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:13:39 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The clever GM

Douglas Berry wrote:

>You do this by emphasizing from day one that the starman/Marine/soldier is
>no longer white or black or male or female, but a member of His Imperial
>Majesty's Armed Service, and the people around you are your comrades.  The
>stressful enviroment and enforced uniformity of Basic Training, coupled with
>a definate plan of instilling pride in the unit, causes old bigoted beliefs
>to fall away.
[snip US Army comparison/anecdote]
>This will happen in the Imperium also.. Isolated, under pressure, and trying
>to learn all they need to know, trainees won't have the time or energy to hate.

Hm... how, then, does one account for the white supremacist groups in the
US armed forces, which have recently been getting more media attention?
Likewise, the sexual harrassment and abuse of female soldiers?

Seems to me that intensive boot-camp experience can just as easily be a
great way of *instilling* a hatred of "the Other" -- whether intentionally
("the dirty mind-raping Zhos!") or incidentally.

>The Imperial Navy and Marines will be the "melting pot" for the Imperium,
>with members drawn from all the 11,000 worlds.  *These* will be the
>"Citizens of the Imperium".. those who've risen above their provincial view
>of themselves as Lunionites or Reginians.

This is pretty much the way I see it too -- the Imperial Army is still
pretty planet-of-origin-bound, with different units having a lot of 'local
flavor' to them, and the Navy, Marines, and IISS being more culturally
homogenous and cosmopolitan in outlook.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:21:45 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> Hm, I'd have thought that some segments of Solomani society would
>> disapprove strongly -- things that might distract from breeding the Master
>> Race in quantities large enough to conquer the universe being intrinsically
>> *wrong*.
[snip]
>So it could be that as long as you do your "Duty to the Race", what you
>do for recreation is ignored. Heck, if you don't care about *which*
>person of the opposite sex is paired with you for kids, you can add
>more diversity to the gene pool than the types that insist on having
>the same partner all the time!

Well, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I wrote that; I do see your
point, and agree with it.

>>>Zhodani: either perfectly acceptable, or stamped out immediately - I haven't
>>>decided yet.
>>
>> Maybe different degrees of acceptability depending on one's social class?
>> Unhealthy for the proles, fine for the nobles?  (Or vice versa?)
>
>More likely they'd not distinuguish class on this, as they can tell
>how they feel. So odds are strongly that it'll either be accepted (as
>the feelings are the same as hetero ones), or they'll "help" you
>correct your feelings (if they feel that homosexuality is wrong).

I guess I don't see the connection between "not discriminating based on
class" and "being able to tell how one feels".  I've understood Zhodani
society to be much more homogenous and more closely integrated than
Imperial society, and at least as class-conscious -- so I have a little
trouble seeing how the possession of psionics by certain social classes
makes the existence different standards of behaviour for different classes
unlikely.  Can you expand on this a little further?  It sounds interesting.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:40:33 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Product Question

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:44:52 -0400, you wrote:

> I was checking around the Imperium Games WP the other day and checked out
> the products section. There was a listing in the upcoming products for a
> FF&S and a Naval Architects Handbook.
> 
> I have heard both titles used for the detailed ship design system. Which is
> which and what is the other going to be?

"FF&S: Completely updated and integrated into the T4 edition of the
Traveller game, Fire Fusion, & Steel is the comprehensive vehicle
design system.  Everything from ground cars to grav tanks, system
patrol boats to atmospheric cruisers, the rules let you design each
vehicle down to the last detail to suit your adventures or your
campaign."

There is NO mention of starships.

"NAM: Create accurate, realistic, detailed deck plans.  Naval
Architect's Manual is the in-depth guide to starship layouts, form
workstations and staterooms to bio-engineered living quarters and
holo-observ-decks.  The complete guide to detained starship operations
and design, fully illustrated with dozens of deck plan segments for
starships, starports, and bases."

Sounds like an architect's guide to interior decorating.

This was all taken from the 1997 Traveller Product Catalog I received
in the mail a week ago.  Before it arrived, I queried IG about the
products on their webpage and asked for more than the single sentence
description only some of them had.  I never got a response.

With the basic starship construction system in the original rules, the
rules in Starships, and whatever will appear in the Deluxe T4
hardbound edition leads you to believe that they will be publishing
yet another book on starship construction (FF&S or NAM-- who knows?).
CSC also contains a relatively detailed vehicle design system, yet
FF&S is going to include even more detailed rules.  I detect a lot of
confusion a year from now...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 14:26:19 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

On 04/26/97 at 05:07 PM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au> said:

> Thinking about the recent posts about the "social glues" of the Imperium
> (eg the  socializing influence of Imperial institutions such as the Navy
> and Marines), the  Imperium may activly encourage sporting contacts
> between it's member worlds.

Excellent idea, Ian!

I had a Navy Captain character in a game a while back that had been on the
Academy Gravball team.  He used gravball references and metaphors all the
time..drove the other PC's nuts.  <g> He followed gravball teams at all his
duty stations.  The first thing he read from Naval dispatchs was always the
latest on the Acadamy Gravball Team.  He *suggested* that his crew form a
gravball team and compete with local teams everywhere they went.  <G> 

I never actually created *rules* for the game, but it was sort of a 3d
water polio/team handball/hockey combination played in a zero-g
environment.  I imagined a large oval (ellipsoidal) court with "kick-off"
posts and platforms located at various places and goals at either end,
played by two, nine person teams.  The object was to put a ball into your
opponents goal..any way you can.  The ball was carried on a "stick"..hooked
stick with small net on the end
(hockey/lacross).  The stick, of course, was also good for changing
direction by hooking around a post and whacking your opponent's stick to
knock the ball loose...and whacking your opponent too!  <g>

I invented a few plays and terms that my PC used in his normal conversation
like, "Pop the Post"-kick off the a wall or a post to gain momentum and
change direction (change the subject or try something new), "Screen and
Whip"-teammates set a screen while someone whips the ball carrier around it
at high velocity breaking them out toward the opponents goal (use teamwork
to solve a
problem), and "Flip Tricking"-rotating in place (flip) but passing to a
teammate in passing rather than shooting on goal (fool the other guy).  I
also stole a few from basketball and hockey like "blue wall (line)"-if you
broke the blue wall ahead of the ball you were offside, "hat trick"-3 goals
in a game (an Ace was 5!), "slam dunk"-driving the ball through the
opponents and into the goal with *extra* force and "give and go"-pass the
ball to a teammate, reverse and dive for the goal, recieving a pass back as
you attempt to score.  Imagine a PC using terms like this to discribe
tactics in space combat...or just everyday actions. <g>

> Thirdly, it provides a great source of adventure hooks ... for example, a
> party with a  starship may be approached about transporting a sports team
> from it's source world to  the All-Corridor Athletics Meet. Two jumps
> before the ship reaches the sector capital, a  shady individual offers
> the ships engineer a large sum of money to make sure the team  does not
> arrive in time for final registration ...

Absolutely!  That's a good one.  <g> Or the PC's are hired to
*protect* a team on tour..from fans, gambler hired thugs, each other and
themselves.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:11:09 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

At 02:30 PM 4/27/97 +0000, Steve Brengard wrote:
>I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space
between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles on
up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants if it
owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its prime had
over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium only claimed
the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to tax .... So on
and so on ...
>
>I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while
member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they are
still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member world, still
has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the Imperium. 
>
>
>
>
Which would mean that the role of the Imperial Army is to provide the muscle
behind enforcement of the rules and regulations in an on going role. Which
would then mean that, to assure the effectiveness in this role, the Imperial
Army would have to be more loyal to the Imperium than the local government,
taking us back to the idea that Imperial Army units are NOT raised on the
worlds  where they are stationed to make sure they do not have a conflict of
interest when they are called out to enforce the Imperial Will.

In the 1100's, it may be that Army units are stationed on the worlds where
they are raised, fuelling the fires of the Last Civil War, but in the first
years of the 3I, we may need to assume that point of recruitment and duty
station are different worlds entirely.  

Or we can assume that the 'Imperial Army' is a fiction; a label added to any
local noble's bodygaurds to make them and the noble appear more important,
but that when push comes to shove in a local dispute with the Iridium
Throne, the true source of Imperial Law Enforcement, the Navy and Marines,
are infinitly willing to turn their guns on the Army.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 1997 20:27:18 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Metator Upgrade

I started tinkering today with the upgrade to Metator.  

(Note for newcomers: Metator is a system mapping and expansion program for
the Macintosh.  It generates detailed systems, listing all bodies, and
displays these in tabular, schematic and orbital forms.  Each body can have
WBH-style expanded data generated about it, as well as a planetary map.  The
current version can be found at
<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html>)

The most requested feature was a way of fitting the maps onto a single page. 
I should have this part finished finished sometime in May.  With a bit of
luck, the 'shrink' feature will work for the system schematic this week.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:09:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

Kenneth wrote:

>I'll lead off this diagnosis of the BSCS, and first off, I'd like to
>state that IG should consider basing BSCS on another game system.

>First Thoughts:
>
>It's no secret that the BSCS is a reguritation of High Guard revised
>for T4.  HG is more attuned to large fleet actions and capitol ships.

Agree (in principle).

> I think the BSCS should focus on player ships.  Since most player
>ships are small, 200-400 ton merchant vessels, I think that the T4
>basic system should be based on the original starship combat system
>(from Little Black Book-2, Starter Traveller, and the Traveller Book)
>or Mayday.

>Actually, both of these systems are pretty close, except that
>the LLB-2 and TB systems used unweildy distance measuring
>rules--a mm on the game board represents 100 km, and vector changes
>required protractors to figure the degree of the turn.
>
>GDW got it right when they used the same system in Starter Traveller
>sans the awkward measurment rules.  All of a sudden, a hex (or a
>range band, as it was called in the rules) was equal to 10,000 km.
>Although the scale was somewhat different, GDW incorporated the
>game-friendly movement rules from Mayday with the starship combat
>rules from LLB-2 and TB.
>
>It was a good combination, and this is the type of system I'd like to
>see in the T4-revised book.

Disagree strongly. I want an abstract basic system - I don't want to reach
for a hex map and acres of space when i run a starship combat. I am
interested in *roleplaying* with my and the players imagination. If I
wanted to use a board game I'd dig out BL, or BR, or Star Cruiser, or Star
Warriors, or Silent Death.... However, we could compromise and put both
board and abstract movement in a new set of rules...

>Diagnosing the Current BSCS:
>
>If the decision is made to stay with the current combat system in T4,
>there are still some changes I'd like to see.  I'll take these
>systematically in the order they appear in the book.

Okay...

>Page 105:  Software.
>I've got to admit, I was ecstatic to see the inclusion of the old
>computer rules from LLB-2, ST, and TB in T4.  I really like the
>tactical and strategic decisions that a player has to make with
>regard to his software.  Which programs is he going to need in future
>turns?  How will his decisions now help or hinder him in his next
>moves?  Should he use Evade, Predict, or Gunner?
>

I like the idea for the roleplaying level.

<snip>.
>
>We don't know how they are used in combat (especially since this
>rule was taken from the LLB-2, ST, and TB combat systems while the
>BSCS is based on HG--a system which does not use this type of
>computer rules).  There is no description in the text describing what
>each program does, and they have deleted some of the programs that
>used to be available in LLB-2 et. al.

You could easily graft these rules onto a High Guard based system.


<snip>

>I'd like to see the computer rules revised (and maybe updated for the
>90's) for T4.  I really like the fact that they are included, but, as
>is, they are close to unusable.


I agree again.

>Page 117:  BSCS Introduction section.
>It states in the introduction that a map is required using range
>bands, squares, or hexes, but then later in the section, it states
>that the ranges used in starship combat do not measure actual
>distances.
>
>I understand this from HG, but that part about squares and hexes
>throws me off.  I can see using a range band chart to keep track of
>what arbitrary ranges the different space craft involved in the fight
>are at, but I can't see how a hex grid could be used for this.  Hex
>maps are used to plot representative distances--not the arbitrary
>distances used in BSCS.

You just have each band as a number of hexes ;-)

>For clarity, I suggest removing the reference to squares and hexs,
>and just leave in the range band part.

Agree. Or explain how to use the hex grid.

>A paragraph should be added explaining this "conceptual" distance
>system.  Most game players expect to see a hex map and
>counters--where the hexes correspond to actual distances--when they
>play a space combat game.  This conceptual range system helps put the
>focus on role playing, but it is hard for players to comprehend at
>first.
>
>I suggest an example of play included in the BSCS chapter where it is
>noted that the GM will keep track of ranges using a range band chart,
>but there is no actual need for the players to actually view this.
>They focus on what's going on with their ship and can ask questions
>like, "Where's that Vargr corsair now?", and the GM can respond
>(looking at his range band chart), "It just moved into close range,
>and it's firing!"

That's how I view and play combat in T4 but I use sensors too.

>There's another thing I'd like to see changed with the BSCS.  The
>conceptual ranges used are nice, but they should be included as an
>optional rule.  I'd also like to see a range system used that uses
>exact ranges.  This way, players can plot out movement on a hex board
>with couters in the traditional manner.  This is the way I like to
>play starship fights, and I'm sure that many others feel that way
>too.

As you may have guessed, I'm in the other camp. I would suggest abstract as
standard, detailed 'exact' as an option. Abstract can be done anywhere
(particularly in places like the bar where we play). Hexes etc can't.

>It shouldn't be too hard to included both types of systems in BSCS.
>Leave in the conceptual system for those who like it, but also add
>exact ranges for the others.  I'd base BSCS combat on the exact range
>system, but throw in the conceptual range system as an alternative
>way to play.

We appear to agree, but disagree! ;-)

<snip>

>Page 117:  General Notes on BSCS.
>One thing that I'd like to see is more character involvement in the
>combat system.  As in Brilliant Lances, I like the task throws based
>on a character's skills.  Take the sensor task throws for example.
>It would be nice if a character's sensor skill impacted the outcome
>of this task.

This would be easy to fix.

>Page 117:  Step 2:  Initiative.
>I like a certain randomness in initiative throws.  It would be nice
>to see a 1 D6 throw as part of determinig initiaive.

Agree. Already used in playtests I've tried.

>Also, I don't think that Leadership is a good skill pick to modify
>initiative.  Ship's Tactics should be added to the skill list, and if
>not, regular Tactics skill should be used instead of Leadership.

And Fleet Tactics!

>Page 117:  Step 4:  Break Off.
>There's some energy point information left over from HG.  The
>reference to energy points should either be taken out or explained
>somewhere in the chapter.

Delete, but explain the amount of energy required to jump...

>Page 117:  Step 5:  Sensor Action.
>This paragraph is confusing and should be written more clearly.  I do
>like the inclusion of sensors in the BSCS, and I like the easy to
>follow to understand rules for sensor scans and locks.
>
>There should be some explanation about passive scans and active
>scans, and questions like "Are the passive scanners considered to be
>running all the time?" should be answered.  When the players are
>trotting along in space and an enemy ship approaches at extreme
>range, are the players automatically notified by a passive scan?  Do
>they have to make a skill roll?  How is a GM supposed to handle this
>if there is a chance that the character's aren't aware of the
>threatening ship?

Yes.

>Page 117:  Additional Thoughts.
>Finally, there are other issues that I'd like to see addressed in the
>BSCS.  For instance, how does gravity effect movement (I know that
>this is really not an issue with the conceptual range system)?
>
>Additionally, there should be a section in the BSCS chapter that
>discusses decompression, atmospheric braking, abandoning ship, damage
>control, and repair parts.

Yes. The old Bk 2 rules addressed some of these.

>If the present system is used, some large starships should be
>included in the example spacecraft section starting on page 100 to
>let players see some capital ship designs that use meson guns,
>meson screens, and black globes.  The BSCS
>rules cover these, but there are no ready made ships to use in
>combat.

But under the rules available the biggest ship you can get it 5000 dt (H2)

>How about boarding actions?  There should be a paragraph or two that
>discusses how a ship can be boarded and what an attacking ships needs
>to do to set troops off on another.

Yes. High Guard had a very simple boarding resolution roll - useful for NPC
ships.

>If the BSCS is to cover large fights between capitol ships, then
>Fleet tactics should be added to the skill list and included in the
>rules.

Mentioned above. Should be in the rules for T4 anyway - Naval characters
aren't the same anymore.

>What about surprise?  Isn't it possible to surprise another ship?

Ask a gearhead. Suspect the answer will be unlikely that you can.

>This should be discussed.  Likewise, there should be some discussion
>about where a ship can hide in space--behind a planet, in the EM
>poles, and other areas that can make  a ship blind to sensors.
>
>If the computer rules are to be used (as I discussed above), then a
>computer reprogramming phase should be included in the combat steps.
>How much time does it take to load one of those things anyway?
>
>Crew casualties--there should be some notes on this when a specific
>area of the ship containing crew members is hit.

I get your idea - perhaps a 'typical' hit should be described - the ref can
improvise then.

>Finally, as with all of the systems in T4, an eye towards keeping the
>BSCS compatible with any larger, more detailed rules system should be
>considered.  When a complete, detailed T4 starship combat system
>comes out (and, I can't wait for this), the ships used in BSCS should
>be compatible with the more detailed system.

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. But the compatibility has to be back at the
construction phase... Fix SSDS/QSDS.

>Long Live Traveller!

Hear! Hear!

Another thought - Let's get the tables & rules in T4 to run from TL0 to
TL16. Then the main rules can handle anything from 0 to 1100, plus the
Darrians....

Dom


- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1263
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1264



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Grand Survey Upgrade
Re: Freelance Traveller Question
Milieu 0
RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: The clever GM
Re: Product Question
Space Combat
Re: Freelance Traveller Question
Re: Metator Upgrade
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261
Variant MT Task System for T4
Re: Milieu 0
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: The clever GM
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 1997 20:28:59 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Imperial Grand Survey Upgrade

I will look at expanding IGS after I get a few more features in Metator
working.  This would be a good time to (re)send me bug reports (for both
applications, actually).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 16:43:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller Question

ericreed@iswt.com (Randall Parker) asked Freelance Traveller...

Does Imperium games plan on producing anything related to 'THE
NEW ERA'?
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 1997 20:37:10 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Milieu 0

Finally had time to start going through M0.  

Sign me up for the opposition!  Looks like the process of "Imperialization"
closely follows that of "globalization".  "Free Trade" with the rules fixed
to allow the big companies close-to free rein in the Third World, with the
Imperial gunboats sent in to topple governments who don't let United Fruit
- -excuse me LSP- have favorable trade terms.

All of which makes for some great adventure hooks, mind you.  Not to mention
a _lot_ of Imperial skeletons that have now been let out of the closet.  

Aside from the minor grammatical errors I've come to expect (someone at IG
uses a spelling checker but _doesn't_ proofread for grammar very well), I
noticed that the system data in the back of the book had identical gov. codes
and law levels for every world.  This is a _major_ oops.  Anyone have the
correct official data for these systems?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:52:27 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC532B.B0244F40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree. Kind of. And I think I have the answer.

If you go over older releases of sector list you will not the following =
base types:
=09
	A - Imperial Naval co-located with Imperial Scout
	B - Imperial Naval co-located with Imperial Scout Way Station
	G - Military Garrison
	M - Non-Imperial Military Garrison
	N - Imperial Naval
	S - Imperial Scout
	W - Imperial Scout Way Station

And so on and so on ......

My interest is in types G and M. Could it be that both types of =
garrisons were in the confines of Imperial space. Could it be that while =
some Planets had their own Military forces, that other relied on =
Imperial Forces for protection. And since Marine garrisons tend to be on =
Naval Installations, I would have to assume that "G - Military Garrison" =
is an Imperial Army Garrison.

Steven E. Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net


Which would mean that the role of the Imperial Army is to provide the =
muscle
behind enforcement of the rules and regulations in an on going role. =
Which
would then mean that, to assure the effectiveness in this role, the =
Imperial
Army would have to be more loyal to the Imperium than the local =
government,
taking us back to the idea that Imperial Army units are NOT raised on =
the
worlds  where they are stationed to make sure they do not have a =
conflict of
interest when they are called out to enforce the Imperial Will.

In the 1100's, it may be that Army units are stationed on the worlds =
where
they are raised, fuelling the fires of the Last Civil War, but in the =
first
years of the 3I, we may need to assume that point of recruitment and =
duty
station are different worlds entirely. =20

Or we can assume that the 'Imperial Army' is a fiction; a label added to =
any
local noble's bodygaurds to make them and the noble appear more =
important,
but that when push comes to shove in a local dispute with the Iridium
Throne, the true source of Imperial Law Enforcement, the Navy and =
Marines,
are infinitly willing to turn their guns on the Army.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:24:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

Quoth Ian or Katts:
> Firstly, it is something that the poorer and newer worlds in the Imperium can 
> participate in on more-or-less even terms - an antidote to the "the Imperium
> exists for the rich worlds and megacorporations" type sentiment.

What, in the same way, say, that small colleges and universities can exist
on more-or-less even terms in the world of college football?

(I remember Rice in the Southwest Conference in the 1980's... not a pretty
site. We were pretty good in the 1950's... before big money and special
admissions got under way.....) 

 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:50:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

At 08:12 pm 04/26/97 -0500, Ryan Christensen wrote:

>> > However, that does not prevent a specialised damper from being
developed to
>> > stop power plant nuclear cores.
>> 
>> No, it doesn't.  I don't really have a problem with this, either.  It
>> is just a creative use of a device outside of its normal role.  It
>> will only work for fission powerplants, however.  Fusion operates on a
>> different principle.

	Nope, nuclear dampers work on fusion reactions as well. Otherwise they'd
be completely worthless, as nobody *uses* fission warhead at higher
TLs--it's all fusion. Even now, the main reason our big'uns use fission is
solely as a detonator for the fusion warhead...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:59:16 -0400
From: russcm@zoomnet.net (Christopher M. Russell)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

>>It likely won't, since the damper is not a beam weapon but an energy field
>>which surrounds the ship.
>
> That would make them pretty useless as nuclear missile defense right?
>
Not really, not if it's a thick field.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 16:30:00 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: The clever GM

On 04/27/97 at 12:13 PM,  kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) said:

> >This will happen in the Imperium also.. Isolated, under pressure, and
> trying >to learn all they need to know, trainees won't have the time or
> energy to hate.

> Hm... how, then, does one account for the white supremacist groups in the
> US armed forces, which have recently been getting more media attention?
> Likewise, the sexual harrassment and abuse of female soldiers?

When you have a sample of several million humans you are bound to have some
"sports" out on the extremes.

The important thing to note is that the US armed services aren't
tolerating, or covering up, these extremists, nor the sexual harassers. 
That would be the traditional way of handling this sort of trash, cover it
up and try to handle it "in house."  Most of the time this was said to be
"for the good of the service", but I've never really bought into that. 
I've particularly been troubled by the events at the Citidal, these young
men are training to be our *officer* class!  I don't want brutes and
sadists leading our troops.

Today's environment leans *strongly* toward exposure and ruthless
elimination of these prejudices and anti-social attitudes.  I just hope we
don't over-react and end up with "witch hunts" that sweep in innocent
parties.  Like most countries we have a long history of that, as well.

Ob Traveller:  I suspect the Imperial Forces would absolutely *not*
tolerate this sort of behavior.  With several hundred million (billions?)
of servicebeings toleration should be the Order of the Day.

I blame a lot of this on the decline of common courtesy, personal
responsibility and individual honor.  (We could argue that this decline is
in step with the decline of overt religious practice, but let's not.)  I
see the Imperium as a more "honorable", *much more courteous society.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:58:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Product Question

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Christopher M. Russell wrote:

> I was checking around the Imperium Games WP the other day and checked out
> the products section. There was a listing in the upcoming products for a
> FF&S and a Naval Architects Handbook.
> 
> I have heard both titles used for the detailed ship design system. Which is
> which and what is the other going to be?

According to the catalog they mailed out, FF&S is the complete design
system.  Naval Architects Handbook deals with designing imperail navy
vessels.


Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 17:03:11 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Space Combat

On 04/22/97 at 12:09 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

> Disagree strongly. I want an abstract basic system - I don't want to
> reach for a hex map and acres of space when i run a starship combat. I am
> interested in *roleplaying* with my and the players imagination. If I
> wanted to use a board game I'd dig out BL, or BR, or Star Cruiser, or
> Star Warriors, or Silent Death.... However, we could compromise and put
> both board and abstract movement in a new set of rules...

Interestingly, I just ran a two ship combat abstractly, USING HEXES, but no
hexmap. The ships were X hexes apart to start. When each moved they became
Y hexes apart. I handled weapons fire and missiles the same way. I just
kept track of the current range, and a little positioning information, on a
sheet of paper. I didn't, and the PCs, didn't care about the exact position
of the ships...just their relative position and facing. It worked very
well.

Don't ask me for exact rules though.  I used RPSCS 0.9..sort of, T4'ish
weapons and basically "winged" the details.  

My point, though, is you (well *I*) can abstract from a detailed system
more easily than I can detail from an abstract one.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:11:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller Question

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

> Does Imperium games plan on producing anything related to 'THE
> NEW ERA'?

As it says in the T4 rulebook, there are many milieus that will be 
supported.  "The Virus Era," as it is called in that book, is mentioned.

The original idea was to get milieu books out at a rate of 1 or 2 per 
year.  However, that was changed - at least in the case of M:0 - because 
it didn't allow enough time for supporting materials for each Milieu to 
be produced before the next one came out.  So, rather than produce a 
bunch of under-supported milieu books, they chose to push M:200 back from 
a release date in this year to sometime next year.

As for when "The Virus Era" mileu book will be produced, I can't say for 
certain.  It's too far off to even think about . . . 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
- -----------------+  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:26:38 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Metator Upgrade

Rob Prior wrote:

>
>I started tinkering today with the upgrade to Metator.
>
[snip]
>
>The most requested feature was a way of fitting the maps onto a single page.
>I should have this part finished finished sometime in May.  With a bit of
>luck, the 'shrink' feature will work for the system schematic this week.


	Yes!  Yes!  Yes!  I've been hoping that you'd get around to doing
this at some point.  Those huge maps were way frustrating (I kept sitting
there thinking what I pity it was that they were unprintable)...

	If I can make another suggestion, I think that better control over
the basics of the system (such as primary type, number of gas giants, etc)
would be a lot of fun.  As it is, I can't get it to do a system with a type
O star as a primary..:)

	Actually, something you might want to do is have charts and
schematics print black-on-white; easier for those of us who own ye olde
StyleWriters.

	And, coincidentally, today I decided to kick another campaign off
towards mid-May; can you get the upgrade done in two-three weeks :)?




R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:53:42 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261

Edward Fok wrote:
 
> >Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
> >what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
> >(an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
> >Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
> >targets from neighboring systems. A tactical version could also be
> >available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?
> 
> Basically vulnerabilities (big missile, big target, easy to hit), and cost
> effectiveness (big missile, expensive to build, need defenses, expensive
> jump drives).

		Here's an idea: stick a couple fixed-mount sandcasters 
in front, and make a huge, hemispherical cloud of sand. if the "capital 
missle" were remote controlled, they could easily guide it in, even 
though the missle itself is virtually blind. And, it would increase it's 
suvivability a great deal.

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:01:15 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Variant MT Task System for T4

As requested, here goes -

===================================================================================
"VMTTS" (vee-mitts) - VARIANT MEGATRAVELLER TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER 4TH EDITION, VERSION 1.0
===================================================================================

This system uses 2D instead of a varying number of dice in all cases. 

Roll the target number or above to succeed. Roll less than the
target number and you have failed. DMs are always applied to the die
roll, not the target number. An unmodified roll of 2 is _always_ a 
failure. It is not always an exceptional failure, however ; see below.
There is no equivalent automatic success result.

Difficulty levels remain as per their T4 descriptions. Target numbers are
Easy/Simple 3+, Average/Routine 7+, Difficult 11+, Formidable 15+, Staggering 19+ 
and Impossible 23+. ( In effect, Staggering is old Impossible, and Impossible is now yet one
task level higher still ). The sequence 3-7-11-15-19-23 should be easy to
remember.

Roll two points or more below the target number for Exceptional / Spectacular
failure. Roll two points or more above the target number for Exceptional /
Spectacular success.

Characteristics - only one may modify a given task roll. Characteristics
in the range 6-8 do not modify tasks - they are assumed to be average human ranges.
Apply DM -1 for characteristic 2-5 ( below average human ). 
Apply DM +1 for characteristic 9-B ( above average human ). 
Apply DM +2 for characteristic C-F ( exceptional human ).
Apply DM +3 for characteristic G+  ( superhuman ).

Tasks may be modified in the following ways -

SAFE          - Exceptional Failure cannot occur. Any failure result is
                a normal failure, even a "natural" 2. Mishaps cannot occur.
(NORMAL)      - "Natural" 2 is a 2D mishap. Exceptional Failure and Normal
                Failure are not mishaps.
HAZARDOUS     - Exceptional Failure is a 2D mishap. A "natural" 2 is a 3D
                mishap. Normal Failure is not a mishap.
FATEFUL       - Normal failure is a 2D mishap. Exceptional Failure and
                "natural" 2 are 3D mishaps.

UNCERTAIN     - Referee rolls 1D, player rolls the other. Player can thus make
                educated guess as to outcome.

UNSKILLED OK  - Quoted skill(s) are not essential. If a task is not Unskilled OK,
                and the character has not got the right skill(s), +2 task difficulty levels.
                If the character has a related skill, +1 task difficulty levels. Jack-Of-All-Trades
                may be applied at half possessed level in the place of any
                missing skill.
CONFRONTATION - Both sides roll task - highest modified roll wins. Equal rolls are
                stalemates.

HASTY         - Increase task difficulty level by one. Time taken = Time taken x 0.5
CAUTIOUS      - Decrease task difficulty level by one. Time taken = Time taken x 2.0

Skill level-0 is assumed to be basic, rudimentary knowledge, enough to incur no
Unskilled Penalty. T4 usually assumes that level-0 in a skill means no knowledge -
I prefer the complete absence of a skill on a character sheet to reflect no
knowledge at all, and level-0 to be "green".

I cap skill levels at level 5. Only rare genius can go higher !

Retry attempts can be made as follows -

If previous attempt resulted in ...           Retry task ...

Mishap                                        Not possible
Exceptional Failure                           At one higher difficulty level
Normal Failure                                At same difficulty level

If the character has Jack-Of-All-Trades, he or she can retry exceptional failures
on a given repeated task at no task difficulty penalty a number of times equal to
his or her Jack-Of-All-Trades level. After that is spent, normal penalties start to
accrue.

As with Cautious tasks, there is no Check Determination task for retries in this
system.

T4 is based on a multiple dice "large number system". Some DMs, such DM +9 for
darkness etc are too large to be applied to this system. My suggestion is to rate each
case on individual merit, and scale DMs to -3 through +3 from their original value.

That's all folks. I assume you have MT and access to the Mishap tables etc. Let me know
what you think.

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/exeus/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:11:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Milieu 0

On 27 Apr 1997, Rob Prior wrote:

> Finally had time to start going through M0.  
> 
> Sign me up for the opposition!  Looks like the process of "Imperialization"
> closely follows that of "globalization".  "Free Trade" with the rules fixed
> to allow the big companies close-to free rein in the Third World, with the
> Imperial gunboats sent in to topple governments who don't let United Fruit
> -excuse me LSP- have favorable trade terms.
> 
> All of which makes for some great adventure hooks, mind you.  Not to mention
> a _lot_ of Imperial skeletons that have now been let out of the closet.  
> 
> Aside from the minor grammatical errors I've come to expect (someone at IG
> uses a spelling checker but _doesn't_ proofread for grammar very well), I
> noticed that the system data in the back of the book had identical gov. codes
> and law levels for every world.  This is a _major_ oops.  Anyone have the
> correct official data for these systems?
> 

Actually, it has been promised that a fix will be posted on the web site,
or otherwise be made available. I agree with you, it is a MAJOR oops, a
simple slip of the programming finger, but one that shouldn't have been
let out. IIRC the same problem applies to First Survey as well. 

I personally think that they should get the $@#!$@ fix out asap, since
this data is well-nigh unusable...a problem with atmosphere, hyrosphere
and suchlike could have been dealt with, but law level and government
types are the heart of how ROLE-PLAYERS deal on a given world.

Fortunately Milieu 0 has got lots of good stuff to make up for that. FS
doesn't, and I'm not tempted at all to spend money on that one.

Also, I agree with you on the Imperium way of doing business, but what do
you expect of an expansionist Imperialist/Capitalist bunch
running dog lackeys of Sylea Street? 

The section on Scout Service contact procedures, is rightly labeled (in
the book) as Secret...there would be large howls of opposition were it
generally known that this is how the oh-so-honorable Clunastu dynasty does
business.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:54:19 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

At 10:30 27/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space
between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles on
up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants if it
owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its prime had
over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium only claimed
the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to tax .... So on
and so on ...
I don't think it was really that simple either, but it could be.

>I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while
member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they
are still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member world,
still has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the Imperium. 
>
Quite simple, really. All the Imperium needs to do is say "OK, you don't
have to pay taxes, but then you can't use our space." No trade, no nothing.
A total blockade would destroy that planets economy, and probably force its
TL way down.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:44:26 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

At 12:10 PM 4/27/97 -0700, you wrote:
>As I remember, there was a Dragon magazine MANY years back which had an 
>article on a sport for Traveller called Gravball.  The exact rules of the 
>sport I dont quite remember, but as I recall, it was quite dangerous.

In my Lunion subsector campaign Rollerball (like the movie) is the rage.
Every three years there's an interplanetary competition for the subsector
title.. lots of possibilities, from pulling a Tonya Harding to transporting
rabid fans to the finals.

Once I write it all down, i'll put up the rules and history on my web pages.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:44:33 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

At 12:13 PM 4/27/97 -0800, Kenji wrote:

>Hm... how, then, does one account for the white supremacist groups in the
>US armed forces, which have recently been getting more media attention?
>Likewise, the sexual harrassment and abuse of female soldiers?

The presence of white-supremacist groups has been vastly overblown.  A small
group publishes a hate 'zin at Ft. Bragg and suddenly the Special Forces are
trading Green Berets for white hoods according to the media.  Some people
won't change.  They tend not to get very far, or they end up in dead-end
assignments.

The allegations of sexual abuse at APG are abhorrent to every professional
soldier I know.  Not just the the impropriety of the act, but that *Drill
Sergeants* would violate the trust placed in them.  These guys need to be
given harsh penalties.  Also, remember that many of the femal soldiers have
now admitted to voluntarily sleeping with the Drills, which is a violation
of the Uniform code of Military Justice all on its own!

>Seems to me that intensive boot-camp experience can just as easily be a
>great way of *instilling* a hatred of "the Other" -- whether intentionally
>("the dirty mind-raping Zhos!") or incidentally.

Well, that is part of it.  A minor part.  While my OSUT time was spent in
expatation of fighting the Godless Communists(tm) in the Fulda Gap, they
never really went to any pains to make us hate our enenmy.  In truth, the
biggest bigotry I carry from my Army days is against the U.S. Navy!  (5
straight years, squids!  Y'all do remember how to play football, right?)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:44:36 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

At 10:30 AM 4/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space
between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles on
up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants if it
owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its prime had
over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium only claimed
the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to tax .... So on
and so on ...

Some worlds are Imperial territory (reserves, Naval Depots, prison planets)
but the majority rule themselves.

Picture the Imperium as something akin to the UN.. While the Imperium
debates the big issues, the indivdual worlds run their own scene. The
Imperium had over 11,000 *member* worlds.. big difference.

The Imperium guaranteed free trade to its members.  It provides this by
protecting the space lanes, standardizing money, insuring legal avenues are
availble to settle disputes, and providing a common cultural base from which
to operate.  In return, a member world pays a small percentage of its Gross
Planetary Income as taxes, cedes small areas for Consulates and bases, and
agrees to recognize Imperial sovereignty over the space lanes.

>I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while
member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they are
still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member world, still
has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the Imperium. 

Yes, but the individual world has complete latitude in how it is run.  Thus
you get the Gov B, Law E hell-holes we all love.  The Imperium only demands
some minmal law enforcement (mainly a prohibition on slavery) and
cooperation with Imperial authorities.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1264
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1265



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Army vs. The Marines
Re: Giving the south AK47s
Re: [off topic] Who we are.
Re: [off topic] Who we are.
Re: Imperial Vessel Names?
Re: The Army vs. The Marines
Re: Re: Metator Update
Re:  Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
Re:  Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters
Re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Armies of the Imperium
Re: BSCS
Re: Was The clever GM Now: Wait til next year!
Re: Sensors and their Operators
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Ship Sizes
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Sports in Imperium
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: The clever GM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:44:30 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

At 01:15 PM 4/27/97 +0000, Garry wrote:

>In general we have a fairly well established policy for the Imperial Navy
>and Marines. What we lack is clarity about what the purpose, procedures and
>methods the Imperial Army has. Given that the Imperium claims only the space
>between worlds, does it really even need an army?

Absolutely.  The Army exists to provide the Imperium with the means to
defend its member worlds, and to conquer hostile worlds during times of war.
The term "Imperial Army" refers to the command and support structure that
allows designated units to operate as a cohesive force, as well as those
combat elements.

Remember that the modern United States Army has over 50% of its combat
assets in either the National Guard or Reserve.  The NG is under state
control, and generally does not answer to the federal government.  They do,
however, accept training and equipment from the Regular Army, and when
called upon to serve, will generally do so.

This is the situation in the Imperium.  The various worlds maintain military
forces for their own defence, and allow a portion of those units to be under
the control of the Imperium in exchange for cutting edge equipment and
increased training opportunities.

  If interplanetary travel
>and trade is the the main reason for the Imperium, with local planetary
>politics left up to the locals, then enforcement of Imperial policy would be
>effective by embargos and blockages. If you need some SHORT TERM objective
>on a planet's surface, you have the Marines. Otherwise, you punish the world
>by withdrawing trade privileges. Maybe make an example out of a city or two,
>from a safe orbital height. Then let the locals stew in their own collapsing
>economies and weight for then to come back into the fold.

In theory, this will work.  It also should have won WWII on both the German
and Japanese fronts.  The Japanese home islands were cut off completely by
1945, with shortages of everything.  They had no Navy, no Air Force, and no
real hope.  Without the atom bomb, the Allies would have had to invade,
since even with the hardships they faced, the Japanese were still defiant.
Estimated casualties from Operation Olympic were around 1 million dead or
wounded.

The Army is the heavy guns.. the guys who go in and occupy the enemy cities
and inform them that the rules have *changed*.  It has to be done by ground
troops.. they have to see it happen.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:56:41 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Giving the south AK47s

Gordon W. Rycroft wrote:
> 
> Check out Turtledove's "Guns of the South" anyway.  Even if it isn't the novel
> you're thinking of it's a damn good read.  I have read a couple of novels
> concerning Racists time ttravelling back to the American Civil War... one was
> Turtledove's and the other, whose title and author I don't remember off hand,
> had a black federal agent following the racist back to try and dtop any temporal
> contamination... Does that sound familiar?
> 
- ---Sounds like the Harry Harrison book to me.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:08:44 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Who we are.

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

Cool, I have no beef with this sort of thing, is that I recently got
hammered for posting off topic info request.

> -> This whole thread is off topic, no?
> Abso-Bloody-Lutely!
> But it's still interesting to find out what people you are dealing 
> with on a day to day basis, the people you slowly get to know are 
> really like! It also is interesting to find out: What kind of person 
> plays Play..er, Traveller!Ad Astra,
> 
> V.A.G.       
> ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
> -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
> --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
> ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
> -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
> 
> 


c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Chiyo
MORE THAN FORGIVENESS
Plum-blossoms give their fragrance still to him
Whose thoughtless hand has broken off their limb.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:35:40 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Who we are.

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

And your point being ...?

I hope your not being so childish as to say "you did it so I can do it"?

> At 11:50 AM 4/24/97 +1000, Solomani wrote:
> >
> >This whole thread is off topic, no?
> >
> 
> It's just as on-topic as argueing wether Aristotle was a scientist.. and
> more interesting to boot.
> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
> | insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
> |   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> 
> 


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	It's intuitively obvious!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:06:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Vessel Names?

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970422175803.9279A-100000@electric-rain.net>
> 
> << I like it as well, but if you read your TAS you will see that during the
> Third Imperium atleast they did name there vessels - Wayward Dream,
> Agidda, etc. >>
> 
> Ah, but we're talking about the First Imperium. 

Very true, and I have decided to use designations as opposed to names, to
further emphasise the difference between the Terrans and Imperials.  The
Terrans will have your typical names (Invinciable, Constellation, Sydney
etc) while the Imperials (translated anyway) will use designations like
CV-065, HS-0012, DD-1137 etc.

Michael.



We are an impossibility in an impossible universe
 Ray Bradbury

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:15:26 +1000 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> This only makes sense if you are dealing with an *internal* problem.
> When attacked by *outside* forces, troops defending the land of their
> families tend to do so with more enthusiasm than those defending the
> territory of someone they do not know.
> 


This is true, and a soldiers effort to defend *his* home can not be
under stated, but only so far as the discipline and training of the
troops goes.  For instance, your average Roman Soldier from Rome or Italy
would make that extra effort when defedning Rome itself, but I am just as
likely to believe that they would make a supureme effort defending
Cisalpine Gaul against the Germans as they would A) consider it Roman
territory and B) they would be Roman colonists there.

Look at the dogged defense of the Germans of occupied Russia and Poland
against the Soviets, it was just as well defended as Germany proper was.
The reason's why, they fought hard to get those territories, they had
excellent training and discipline (what was left of the original veteran
force from France) and they knew if they did not stop or delay them where
they were, then the Fatherland and there family would eventually suffer
for it.  Just my 2 credits.

Michael,

We are an impossibility in an impossible universe
 Ray Bradbury

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 1997 03:26:01 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Metator Update

>	Actually, something you might want to do is have charts and
>schematics print black-on-white; easier for those of us who own ye olde
>StyleWriters.

Uh, thought it did that already.  I suspect the colour/B&W commands need
changing: these really (at the moment) change the background from black to
white!  (It's not a bug, it's a feature.)  Try selecting the "Black & White"
command under the View menu.  You should get colour worlds on a white
background.  The results look pretty good on a LaserWriter (printing
Colour/Grayscale).


>	And, coincidentally, today I decided to kick another campaign off
>towards mid-May; can you get the upgrade done in two-three weeks :)?

You offering money here?  :-)

Seriously, Matt Goodman is paying me good money for some Space 1889
deckplans, while no one has ever paid a shareware fee for any of my Traveller
software.  :-(    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 23:26:59 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re:  Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

JayStr <jaystr@best.com> wrote:
> First off: Everyone except the fighter partisans sneer at the idea of
> fighters going up against capital warships, but has anyone experimented
> with larger fighters, i.e. those up to 90 tons?

The bigger the fighter, the better.  In a sense, your 200-ton and 400-ton
SDBs could be considered "really heavy fighters".  Technically speaking,
anything under 100 tons is a fighter, and anything 100 tons and over is
either a boat (if it's based on a world or other static location) or a rider
(if it's based on a jump-capable ship).  The difference in capabilities
between a 90-ton fighter and a 100-ton SDB would be pretty minimal, and
they're still pretty non-survivable against cruiser-sized or bigger
oponnents.

> Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
> his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught?

KABOOM!

> How do you handle the to-hit possibilities,

The PC would pretty much have to ride the fighter all the way down to
impact.  If he or she ejects before then, the fighter becomes ballistic, and
is easy to avoid (even at the last second).  Assuming that the fighter has
equal or better acceleration that the target, a hit should be easy to
achieve (roll against pilot skill).  The big drawback is that point-defense
fire from the target should also be pretty easy; the PC is more likely to
get shot down than to miss the target.

> and how do you handle damage?

BIG KABOOM!

> by the mass of the fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's?

By the mass of the fighter and the impact velocity (in range bands/turn, not
Gs).  For any reasonable sized fighter at readily-achievable speeds, the
impact is going to have energy of thermonuclear proportions: the PC and his
fighter wind up as plasma; the target is almost certainly destroyed (a
10-ton fighter, after 2 turns of acceleration, should have enough kinetic
enerrgy to clobber a ship in the million-ton range).

> What if the PC packs it full of high explosives and command-detonates
> it after he ejects?

He'd get a bigger bang if he used lead (the kinetic energy of a kilogram of
_anything_ traveling at those speeds is higher than the chemical energy in
any explosive).

The fighter isn't likley to hit anything if if the pilot ejects - the course
is too predictable, and too easy to evade.

> What if a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
> warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
> then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
> How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?

It'd be tough to do practically: the remote-control time lag would make
hitting the target difficult, and there's too many ways for the target (and
escorts) to disable the ram-ship or knock out it's communications.

> Third: If you can come up with a rules set for suicide ships in T4,
> what's to prevent you from building a whopping 100-ton capital missile
> (an unmanned ship, essentially) with its own jump drive? sort of the
> Trav equivelant of the ICBM? You could launch strikes on stationary
> targets from neighboring systems.

A crude version of this tactic was featured in _Dagger at Efate_, a very
early Amber Zone in the Journal of the Travelers' Aid Society, many years
ago.  Against a defended target, you'd have to launch a lot of them, and
it'd be expensive (jump drives are expensive things to just throw away).
Intercepting and destroying these things would be a GOOD use for the
high-acceleration 200-ton and 400-ton SDBs, though.

> available that replaces the jump fuel with a bigger warhead. Comments?

Again, hard to hit with, so you need to send lots of them.  If you're in
the same system as the target world you could just lob rocks at the
target (deadfall ordinance).  These are much cheaper than ships, and make
the same pretty explosions when they hit the planet.

> Thanks in advance for the feedback.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:00:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re:  Bigass interceptors & suicide fighters

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> A crude version of this tactic was featured in _Dagger at Efate_, a very
> early Amber Zone in the Journal of the Travelers' Aid Society, many years
> ago.  Against a defended target, you'd have to launch a lot of them, and
> it'd be expensive (jump drives are expensive things to just throw away).
> Intercepting and destroying these things would be a GOOD use for the
> high-acceleration 200-ton and 400-ton SDBs, though.
 As far as the 'easy to intercept', I'd have to disagree. Within T4, CT,
and even systems with limited delta-v you could get it up to at *least*
60hexes/turn before it runs out of gas, and it would only require minor
thrustor corrections to change it's heading enough to hit(Rember that
because of the lightspeed lag, it would know where the space station is
far before the defenders knew they were under siege) and hence the time
that defenders would have to intercept would be very small..
 Of course, good point defense should be able to shoot down alot, that'd
be the only layer of defense though. I could picture some huge bulk
missile carrier jumping into the outer system and launching a huge swarm
of these very cheap thruster plate + fusion plant + fuel + battery
missiles. Once it got to a sufficent speed(lots of space for that) it
could go quiet and rely on batteries and a passive sensor or a agent
brodcasting(or even a simple transponder. By nature, any space station
would have to be easy to find unless it was a military only situation).. 
 Even if finding it would be a problem, rember that throughout history it
hasn't been hard to find semi-skilled individuials who are willing to
sacrifice their lives for a 'worthy' cause... If all else fails, they
could just brainwash em. 

bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:10:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: expertise (was re: Mathmeticians and Traveller Jump Theory)

In a message dated 97-04-19 04:52:09 EDT, you write:

<< The IG tests for determing UPPs were published here a
 few months ago. We could all become NPCs in each other's games. Who knows,
 someone might be interested in collecting the bios into a NPC booklet. I
 think we're at least as interesting as some I've seen.  Look for my bio at
 my "Misjump" web site in a few weeks.
 
 Later, John Lambert >>

Can someone send me a copy of the IG tests for determining UPPs?  Please!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:07:18 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

At 05:20 PM 4/27/97 EST, Eris wrote <snipped severely>:

>...I had a Navy Captain character in a game a while back that had been >on
the Academy Gravball team.  He used gravball references and >metaphors all
the time..drove the other PC's nuts.  <g> He followed >gravball teams at
all his duty stations....

Excellent idea!  This got me to thinking...  I went into the Rutherford
Archives (dusty spare room full of stored games, household appliances,
etc.) and found my old copy of FASA's Gravball... Very similar to Eris'
comments...  What a simple way to add flavor to yr game!
There may be the makings of a Fantasy Gravball League here for my players
(none of whom have ever seen the game - which wasn't, as I recall, all that
bad!)...  Has anybody out there tried this with yr players, and if so, with
what results? 

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:18:24 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

At 09:45 PM 4/27/97 EST, Douglas wrote:
<Heavily snipped...>
>Once I write it all down, i'll put up the rules and history on my web pages.
>...

Pls do - this is all *culture* stuff that adds flavor to the game...

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:25:54 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Armies of the Imperium

I think that the Imperium may levy troops from local armies as part of the 
general Imperium membership requirements but that the responsibility for 
raising, equiping and training these army units would lie with the member 
worlds.
As the Imperium is largely an economic entity it would probably encourage 
worlds to join rather than force them two.

Encouragement would be a term for a wide variety of inducements ranging 
from preferential trade status, to supply og high tech bribes, to promises 
of cash and land, to the destruction of the ruling government and it's 
replacement with a more tractable one.

The only Genuine Imperial Military Force is the Imperial Navy and it's 
ground attack arm the Imperial Marines.  Of course some army units might be 
raised by the Imperium but generally only for specific duties such as 
guarding the Imperial Palace or protecting some Noble Pleasure planet with 
low population.

The Imprial Levy would be used to bolster defenses on the member worlds 
with insufficient resources to protect themselves.
This could lead to soem Levy forces declaring the world as being part of 
their own homeworld government, or even declaring themselves as a new 
government.  Of course, this is a job for the Imperial Marines.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:31:04 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: BSCS

> As you may have guessed, I'm in the other camp. I would suggest abstract as
> standard, detailed 'exact' as an option. Abstract can be done anywhere
> (particularly in places like the bar where we play). Hexes etc can't.

Well, whatever's easier.  I would think that it would be easier to 
have a detailed system first, then do some general, abstracted 
guidelines from your hard and fast rules--not the other way around.  
This is why I suggested using a detailed system with an abstract 
optional rule for BSCS.

> But under the rules available the biggest ship you can get it 5000 dt (H2)

Well, can a meson gun be used as a spinal mount weapon on a 5000 dt 
ship?  I actually don't design a lot of star ships, so I don't know.

The point is, like Dom has alluded to, the BSCS should be designed 
with the QSDS in mind and vice versa.  

That's the point I was trying to make in my original post to which 
Dom is responding.  Why have meson guns, black globes, and screens in 
the BSCS if the ships being designed in QSDS don't use them?

My suggestion all along has been--

We've got a chance now to make T4 revised the best edition of 
Traveller ever.  Why don't we get it as close to perfect as possible?

> Another thought - Let's get the tables & rules in T4 to run from TL0 to
> TL16. Then the main rules can handle anything from 0 to 1100, plus the
> Darrians....

Excellent point!!!!

I remember some discussion about this when T4 Book 1 first  came out. 
 Some, including me, were under the impression that the T4 main book 
would be independent of melieu, but when we got it, it was definitely 
geared towards M0.

The main book for T4 should be melieu independent.  The supplements 
provided for each melieu should be the book that is geared towards a 
specific era.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:40:34 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Was The clever GM Now: Wait til next year!

That low down dogface "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>wrote:
>>>>
While my OSUT time was spent in
expatation of fighting the Godless Communists(tm) in the Fulda Gap, they
never really went to any pains to make us hate our enenmy.  In truth,
the
biggest bigotry I carry from my Army days is against the U.S. Navy!  (5
straight years, squids!  Y'all do remember how to play football, right?)
<<<<

Let them win a few games, and they think they are the next superbowl
champs!
Jeeze, Its a good thing the USMC is out doing its job, what with all the
bickering and fighting between the army and navy!  ;-)

What the dogface says is true... the best fights were always between the
Navy/Marines/Army. Nobody ever fought the Airfarce as there was no
challenge.

:)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:35:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sensors and their Operators

>My initial reaction is to say:  Skill + Attribute + Automatic Range, giving
>a range of 40(T4) or 46(KB2).  This seems like a *large* increase, but
>maybe it should be large.
>
>Let's look at a possible example:

Very good question that about what sensor ops do and they same could be
asked about astrogators. But the above <Skill + Attribute + Automatic
Range> is totally unacceptable! With the sensor has range 0.00000 the
attribute would still give 6 hexes (huh). Skill increase should always be
multipliers to range or adds to logaritmized sensor factor (adding logs is
the smae as multiplying). The same can be said about damage; damage should
be multiplied by task result.
I agree that this is a bit off topic but I had to say it.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:50:20 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>I think an X-Y hex map and a rectangular X-Z map would work perfectly. I
>prefer hex maps because there is a finer granularity of facings and no
>awkward diagonals to deal with. A rectangular X-Z map is fine because, as
>you point out, one only has to deal with the Z vector. Also, on a planet
>one can't (drastically) change your Z coordinate so the same rules and map
>could be used for planetary combat by eliminating the X-Z map. This is
>good. I like it. Is there any way to encourage IG to use this idea?

The problem with hexes on the ground is (as everybody knows) that rooms etc
have 90 degree corners forcing the players to zig-zag when moving north but
not when moving east. In space combat it's not such a big problem but no
real advantages for hexes either. One big drawback for hexes is in 3D. Why
should one view of the playing surface be square grid and the other not?
When designing a 3D system please refrain from giving preferred dimensions.
I'd say hexmaps are here because most RPG are carrying old archaic stuff
from the bad old wargame days (hitpoints etc).

But as you're all free to do whatever you like in your universe by all
means keep the damned hexmaps.

I tip for hexophiles: if you can live with nonperfect hexes it is possible
to inscribe a regular 1m hexmap onto a 1.5 meter grid thus giving you 1m
hexes (much better scale) and you can still use the old shipplans without
having to do the rather large change I did: changing the scale from 1.5 to
1m thus reducing displacement to 1 dton = 5 m3.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:56:33 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ship Sizes

>Personally, I do better when I can visualize internal spaces in relation to
>buildings.  I can walk around, inside and outside, similar sized buildings
>and get a feel for what the ship would be like.  I can stand on the
>sidewalk and visualize that 2 story apartment building coming in for a
>landing...*that* impresses me, and that's a small ship!  Yes, "Fat Albert"
>impresses me too. ;->
>
>Eris

Buy Marathon Infinity and draw the ships with the editor including the cool
SF textures. Then you can walk around in those ships and see how they feel.
Really interesting. Someone made an excellent map of a Subsidized merchant
that felt really cool moving around.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:07:09 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

>Not really, not if it's a thick field.


You mean THICK!!! field right :)
CT canon says you need two projectors and the max range is calculated as a
TL based factor multiplied by the separation of the two units. The units
also needed a PD-firecontrol system all according to Striker I. If you'd
carry damperunits on two ships the range could bve truly enormous limited
to FC of course.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:35:18 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Sports in Imperium

A year ago there was discussion on sports, and somebody told that he had
rules and maps for gravball. I got them from him, but somehow my zipfile
was corrupted, so I don't have all maps. All the rules are there, though.

If somebody would like to have this, mail me and I will send it to you.

Mikko Parviainen
mvparvia@cc.hut.fi
http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

Life sucks and then you die.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:52:38 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

>Yes, but the individual world has complete latitude in how it is run.  Thus
>you get the Gov B, Law E hell-holes we all love.  The Imperium only demands
>some minmal law enforcement (mainly a prohibition on slavery) and
>cooperation with Imperial authorities.

The Imperium seems especially picky about these things:

Slavery, psionics (post psi suppression), ABC weaponry and robots posing as
humans. Note that ABC weaponry are totally out of the question for mercs,
planetary govs by the Imperial Rules of war yet TNE and also T4(?) imply
that all shipowners with missile launchers can own (heck, even use) x-ray
nuke missiles in space combat. As KE missiles are quite deadly I rule that
the only legal missiles for civilians (traders etc) are small operated
guided (no homing) KE missiles and by small I mean about 50 kg sizes.
They're mostly nuclear fission driven lasercomm guided cheapshots. An
enterprising noble sells small missile launchers that you mount in the
airlock for those lacking missile launchers (he also runs a private jail
for neighbouring worlds).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:07:24 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The clever GM

>Ob Traveller:  I suspect the Imperial Forces would absolutely *not*
>tolerate this sort of behavior.  With several hundred million (billions?)
>of servicebeings toleration should be the Order of the Day.
>
>I blame a lot of this on the decline of common courtesy, personal
>responsibility and individual honor.  (We could argue that this decline is
>in step with the decline of overt religious practice, but let's not.)  I
>see the Imperium as a more "honorable", *much more courteous society.
>
>Eris

I model (sort of) the Imperium on the British Empire in the previous
century. The brits tradition of sportmanship, stiff-neckedness and
upholder-of-civilized-valuesness. This is how the Nobles see themselves but
not necessarily how they behave (just as in the brits case). Keeping
natives as troops, going native etc all adds fun stuff to your campaigns.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1265
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1266



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1263
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: Precious materials
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261
Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break
Ship combat
Re: All tech levels
Imperial recruitment practices
Re: Advanced Character Generation
Re: Precious materials
Re: Ship Sizes
Re: The 3-Task System
Re: 2d Task System
Core Sector Data
Apology
Re: Product Question
Re: SSDS Anomalies
Welcome to VilaniWorld!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:09:41 +0000
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1263

 > On Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:02:07 +1200 Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> 
> wrote:
> >At 23:21 26/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >>>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
> >>>From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
> 
> >>>I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his
> >>>hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the
> >>>civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win.
> >>>On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming
> >>>as it is essentially an improvised weapon.
> 
> >>This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
> >>war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
> >>similarly named Harry Turtledove?
> 
> >It was definatly a Harry Harrison novel, as I remember it from about 10
> >years ago (can't recall its name, though). IIRC it was more of a mystery or
> >manhunt story than a war story, but I'm not sure.

You are definitely right. It *was* a Harry Harrison story -- don't 
recall the name offhand, and i don't have the book handy (its in 
storage downstairs somewhere).

Some of the facts are wrong, though. The racist/redneck didn't take 
back an AK, however, he took back samples of and plans for a Sten Gun 
(a British WW2 MG -- the current Sterling SMG is sort of similar). 
The Sten was such a simple design that even the Maquis (the FFI -- 
French Resistance) was able to make copies with what amounted to hand 
tools! A well equipped bicycle factory was capable of turning them 
out.

Said redneck also took back enough gold (IIRC) to set up a basic 
production facility and/or get the attention he needed from the CSA 
authorities.

The "uptime" authorities determine his likely plans and send back a 
black sergeant/MP to track him down. It is, however, pretty much a 
one way trip -- he does, and uses the money to get Black Regiments up 
and running at least a year (IIRC) before they were historically.

When he is finally approached by an aged, but recognisable, member of 
the uptime team and offered a chance to go home, however, he does 
some quick questioning and "proves" that the "time travel" theory 
they were using was flawed -- he is really an alternate and in an 
alternate dimension. And he stays behind to follow up his work.

Hope that helps.

Phil
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Designer, Will Travel
(Co-Designer of Space Opera, Designer Rigger Black Book)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:42:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

In mail you write:

> In my Lunion subsector campaign Rollerball (like the movie) is the rage.
> Every three years there's an interplanetary competition for the subsector
> title.. lots of possibilities, from pulling a Tonya Harding to transporting
> rabid fans to the finals.

For what it is worth, the local SF club (PorSFiS) has pins and bumper
stickers that say "I support Little League Rollerball". And every once
and a while they have a "PorSFiS Rollerball team practice" (they get
together at a local amusement park that features a roller-skating
area).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:53:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Precious materials

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson)
>
> (Responding to another)
>> In any case, Traveller *way* undersestimates the availability of
>> elements at their tech levels. You just turn rock into plasma, then
>> sort the atoms by atomic weight using magnetic fields (a sort of
>> overgrown mass spectrograph)
>
> THis was intentional. We thought it would make a better game.

Well, I kinda like the "flavor" the other way would give. 

Gold is worth about as much as lead. Natural gemstones and semiprecious
stones (even "decorative" building stones like marble and granite) are
still worth money.

Organics are *valuable*, as it's the *arrangement* of atoms, not the
atoms themselves that are worth money. So spices, drugs, and even oil
are worth money.

And manufactured items are worth money, because of the ffort in
manufacturing them from the raw elements.

So in essence, the only things that lose value are metals and metal
ores.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:00:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1261

In mail you write:

>>Second: UNDER T4 RULES, what do you do if a desperate PC wants to crash
>>his fighter into the badnasty alien dreadnaught? How do you handle the
>>to-hit possibilities, and how do you handle damage? by the mass of the
>>fighter? the speed at which they meet in G's? What if the PC packs it
>>full of high explosives and command-detonates it after he ejects? What
>>if a desperate low-tech civilization wants to build the ultimate capital
>>warship by taking a destroyer and packing it full of nuclear warheads,
>>then steering it by remote control into the invading fleet's flagship?
>>How do you HANDLE that sort of thing?
>
> ***techie alert***
>
> Take the speed in m/second at which they meet, square it, and multiply it by
> the half the mass of the fighter in tons.  Divide the results by 5000 and
> you have a rough estimate of the energy released in equivlant kg of TNT
> going off when the fighter hits.
>
> I'd say you can make a table of this with mass in tons along the Y axis and
> velocity along the X axis.  This will let you make a handy table for your
> crazy players.  If I get really bored, I might even put one together.

Even simpler "rule of thumb". 

At 3 km/sec the ship hits as if it was an equal mass of TNT. The TNT
equivalent changes as the *square* of the velocity. So at 1 km/sec it's
equivalent to 1/9th its mass in TNT. At 30 km/sec it's equivalent to
*100* times its mass in TNT.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:13:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Imperium. Give me a break

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>>Zhodani: either perfectly acceptable, or stamped out immediately - I 
>>>>haven't decided yet.
>>>
>>> Maybe different degrees of acceptability depending on one's social class?
>>> Unhealthy for the proles, fine for the nobles?  (Or vice versa?)
>>
>>More likely they'd not distinuguish class on this, as they can tell
>>how they feel. So odds are strongly that it'll either be accepted (as
>>the feelings are the same as hetero ones), or they'll "help" you
>>correct your feelings (if they feel that homosexuality is wrong).
>
> I guess I don't see the connection between "not discriminating based on
> class" and "being able to tell how one feels".  I've understood Zhodani
> society to be much more homogenous and more closely integrated than
> Imperial society, and at least as class-conscious -- so I have a little
> trouble seeing how the possession of psionics by certain social classes
> makes the existence different standards of behaviour for different classes
> unlikely.  Can you expand on this a little further?  It sounds interesting.

What I was thinking on was that since they can tell how you *really*
feel about things, they are less likely to interfere with the
"happiness" of *anyone* as long as that happiness falls within the
"norms". 

Most of the class distinctions the Zhodani have are "earned" (or at
least thought to be). But I can't see how you "earn" the right to love
a particular gender rather than another.

*If* they feel homosexuality is wrong, they'll repress it. 

If they feel that it is ok, then there's not much point in denyingh it
to the proles. The one class difference I can think of would be that
they'd be more likely to insist that *non*-proles have kids so as to
pass on their superior genes. The higher your class, the more insistent
they'd get. If you are a prole, it's no great loss if you don't pass
them on. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:18:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Ship combat

Just a quick note... Could folks *please* try to remember to include a
Subject line in their headers? My mailer gets upset when I reply to
mail that doesn't have one.  Thanks.

In mail you write:

> Disagree strongly. I want an abstract basic system - I don't want to reach
> for a hex map and acres of space when i run a starship combat. I am
> interested in *roleplaying* with my and the players imagination. If I
> wanted to use a board game I'd dig out BL, or BR, or Star Cruiser, or Star
> Warriors, or Silent Death.... However, we could compromise and put both
> board and abstract movement in a new set of rules...

Just what *exactly* do you mean by "abstract"? It's not really
*possible to do combat without something to represent the ships and
something to show where they are/will be in relationship to each other.
Anything more abstract than Mayday or the "lay them out on the table
and measure" version of the Book 1 rules is *too* abstract. You might
as well just roll arbitary dice and assign damage that way.

The roleplaying *is* present, in that you get to determine your moves
within the bounds of what your ship can do, and the success of attacks
(and some defenses) will depend on *both* the spatial relationship of
the ships *and* character skills like gunnery, and maybe even pilot. 

But anything more abstract would be like not bothering about who was
where in the room/area when the fight starts. 

>>I suggest an example of play included in the BSCS chapter where it is
>>noted that the GM will keep track of ranges using a range band chart,
>>but there is no actual need for the players to actually view this.
>>They focus on what's going on with their ship and can ask questions
>>like, "Where's that Vargr corsair now?", and the GM can respond
>>(looking at his range band chart), "It just moved into close range,
>>and it's firing!"
>
> That's how I view and play combat in T4 but I use sensors too.

I've often wondered if it'd be possible to come up with a "book combat"
type system (like "Ace of Aces") for Traveller small ship actions. That
is, each ship has a "book". You start out at one of several pages
depending on the situation at the start of combat. Each of you chooses
from one of the manuevers listed as possible on that page, and you both
go to the resulting page, which gives a view of the now current
situation, and you keep going like this until you escape, get killed,
or get a kill.

I know that it's *only* possible for one-on-one battles. And you'd have
to carry the results of the attacks on a ship data sheet. But it might
work out ok.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:31:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: All tech levels

Leonard Erickson writes:
>>In MegaTraveller, the stated tech levels represented achievement tech levels:
>>the highest technology available on that world.  It may be imported, and
>>common tech might well be several levels below.
> 
>Then any world with a starport has to be TL-10 or so. Ain't what happens.
>It has to be *local* tech, otherwise the starport type wouldn't
>*modify* the TL, it'd set a *minimum*.

But it can't be local tech level in all cases, since you have worlds with
very low populations and high tech levels. It takes quite a few people to
run an industrial society. I'd imagine that it would take even more to
run a high-tech society, though I admit that it's debatable. However, my
suggestion for interpreting TLs is that they represent the level that a
majority of the people on the planet enjoy. Thus when you have a Class A
starport on a medium-tech planet it means that TL 10+ stuff is available
(at least at the starport), but that most people don't use it. And when
you have a low-population planet with a high technology, it means that
they make enough money to buy the stuff they use from off-world (most
common example would be a mining outpost).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:15:34 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Imperial recruitment practices

Rob Prior writes:
>>I can see how a military would accept such rules based on its own
>>prejudices, but the resulting logistical problems are so big (especially
>>if it isn't just one or two simple prejudices like sex and skin color)...
> 
>Think of the colonial regiments in the last century.  

I was. I remember a scene in one of Ellis Meacham's books about the Bombay
Marine where Merewether get a company of sepoys aboard and gets a short
list of what to feed who and what work he's allowed to put them to. And
that was just for two different religions. Multiply that by the few dozen
prejudices you can get from any culturally heterogenous world and multiply
that by the number of worlds in the imperium and you get a situation that
any Imperial commander would prefer to avoid.
  
>If you assume computerized book-keeping and accounting (run by Vilani
>quartermasters) then the logistics shouldn't be a problem.  

Make that "shouldn't be an unsolvable problem" and I'll agree. My point is
that it's a complication that the Imperial militaries would prefer to 
avoid _if possible_. So the question becomes: 1) does the Imperial militaries
have a sufficiently big manpower pool to select only compatible troops? And,
b), is it politically possible for then to select only compatible troops?
I think the abswer to the first part of the question is yes. The second
part? Ay, that's the rub. Certainly we know that they use Aslan and Vargr
troops. But Aslans and Vargr represent a not inconsiderable slice of the
Imperial citizenry. Just because they cater to them is no proof that they'd
cater to the followers of some obscure religion on a single world. Or to
temperature-challenged people or bigots or...

>It would be no different than having a species-specific regiment.  

Oh yes it would. first of all the requirements of a species-specific 
regiment are genuine ones. If, politically, you need to include Aslans
in the military, then you _have_ to provide for their specific needs.
But not eating this and not serving with people of particular shade or
a particular religious or philosophical persuasion is an artificial
problem. My gut reaction is that having to cater to a lot of genuine
problems would make the Imperial militaries _less_ inclined to accept
artificial problems.

Now, if you come up with something that is tied to a large slice of the
Imperial citizenry (like most Vilani, or the followers of a pan-Imperial
religion) then the Imperium could well be forced to cater to it. But 
otherwise I doubt it.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:46:52 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation

- -> >   I am currently in the middle of a rewrite of the MegaTraveller Advanced Character Generation rules, so that I can port them over to T4. If there is any interest in this, if you have something to
- -> I still use the MT gen system as is--I think T4 gives too many 
- -> skills.  I'd like to see what you came up with.  Post it here!
Likewise (to avoid a silly ME Too!)Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:17:56 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Precious materials

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

> Two different things here. making gold from lead will *always* require
> lots of energy. But making diamond from carbon isn't inheremt all that
> energy intensive. 

Relative to nuclear transformation, sure.  Chemically, it's still 
quite high (though perfectly feasible, as you say).

> Diamond *will* be pretty cheap at high tech levels. Partly because
> advanced semiconductors will be doped *carbon* (diamond) rather than
> doped silicon.

With all due deference to one who may know an awful lot more than I 
about the practicalities of semiconductors, this strikes me as a 
little unlikely.  Because the energy gap between diamond's full and 
empty energy levels, which is in the eV range IIRC, even really 
serious amounts of doping mightn't make it a very good semiconductor. 
Especially as the most chemically feasible dopants would be boron and 
nitrogen - other candidates are too big to fit easily into a diamond 
lattice - which don't have atomic energy levels particularly suitable 
for doping, I believe.

Diamond does have some obvious advantages as a semiconductor over 
silicon, but the band-gap may be just too large for it to semiconduct 
properly at typical voltages.


> In any case, Traveller *way* undersestimates the availability of
> elements at their tech levels. You just turn rock into plasma, then
> sort the atoms by atomic weight using magnetic fields (a sort of
> overgrown mass spectrograph). 
> 
> So raw elements will cost based on their abundance in the universe.

That will be one factor.  However, economics being what it is, since 
it will be cheaper to produce lanthanum from a largely 
lanthanum-bearing lode, for example, lanthanum will still come from 
high-quality mineral deposits or asteroids.  "Incidental" mineral 
extraction might work much the same way as now: a company refines its 
nickel-iron asteroid, removes all the additional elements without 
sorting them (quicker and cheaper) and sells on the resulting amalgam 
to a specialist extraction firm.

Raw elements will cost according to i) demand and ii) the cheapest 
means of supplying that demand.  Let's say that nickel-iron asteroids 
contain trace amounts of lanthanum (La) and asteroid deposits can be 
quite rich in La.  If there is no economic demand for vast quantities 
of Ni/Fe, then it isn't cheaper to get La as a byproduct of asteroid 
refining, it's cheaper to find and process a deposit of rich ore.  It 
may be much quicker, too, which implies a faster return on capital.

So elements will cost according to local abundance, i.e. abundance in 
the richest easily-available source, with a tradeoff between ease of 
availability and richness.

Of course, if a civilisation wished for political reasons to exist 
off their own resources, they could - but it would be expensive.  
Still, worlds like Ruie/Regina and Nouveau Quebec Libre/Troll may
have their own reasons for choosing to do so, or it might be the
result of an Imperial blockade.

Nick

Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:52:17 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Ship Sizes

Anders Backman wrote:

>>Personally, I do better when I can visualize internal spaces in relation to
>>buildings.  I can walk around, inside and outside, similar sized buildings
>>and get a feel for what the ship would be like.  I can stand on the
>>sidewalk and visualize that 2 story apartment building coming in for a
>>landing...*that* impresses me, and that's a small ship!  Yes, "Fat Albert"
>>impresses me too. ;->
>>
>>Eris
>
>Buy Marathon Infinity and draw the ships with the editor including the cool
>SF textures. Then you can walk around in those ships and see how they feel.
>Really interesting. Someone made an excellent map of a Subsidized merchant
>that felt really cool moving around.


	Except for the two expletive deleted Juggernauts in the expletive
deleted hold, of course :), and vacuum BoBs with fusion pistols...  That
map was really a lot of fun; helped me visualize the size involved really
well...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:01:09 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: The 3-Task System

>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>

>>From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
>>The 3-Task System: An alternative Task and Combat System for T4
>>One and only requisiste: Remember the multiples of three:
>>3,6,9,12,15,18,21
>>
>>Tasks:
>>        2D6+Skill+(Attribute/3) <= (Difficulty)
>>        (round fractions down)
>>        Maximum allowed DM: +10

>Why do you have a Maximum allowed DM at all ?

        First, is the old MT idea, adjusted to account for the extra DMs
obtained when dividing Att/3 instead of Att/5. Second, makes the maximum
modified throw equal 12+10=22, i.e. just slightly over Impossible (21+)
 
>>        Difficulty      Code
>>        ----------------------
>>        Easy            6+
>>        Average         9+
>>        Difficult       12+
>>        Formidable      15+
>>        Staggering      18+
>>        Impossible      21+
>>        ----------------------
>>
>How about Nearly Impossible 21+ and Impossible 24+  If you leave in the
>maximum +10 DM then no charecter will ever be able to complete an
>_Impossible_ task.  The grammarian part of me has always thought that
>Impossible tasks should be _impossible_.

        I agree. But then, you will never use Impossible in actual play, so
drop the name, and drop the "Nearly" also.

>>        Spectacular Success: When the actual roll makes the next
difficulty >>level(i.e. exceeds the required level by 3+). Example: Rolling
12+ in an
>>Average task.
>>        Spectacular Failure: When the actual roll does NOT make the previous
>>difficulty level (i.e. fails by 4+). Can give rise to a 2D mishap. Example:
>>Not rolling 6+ in an Average task.
>
>How about if a roll that does not make the second previous difficulty
>level  (fails by 7+) adds 1d to the mishap table, a roll that does not
>make the third previous difficulty level (fails by 10+ adds 2d to the
>mishap table, etc.  This may be too lethal, but spectacular failures at
>harder tasks should be worse as well as more frequent.  

        Sounds as a easy to add house rule. Anyway, I keep the "Hazardous"
class of tasks from MT. If a task is stated as Hazardous, then Mishaps are
automatically 3D.

>>        Marginal success: If the roll equals the required level exactly.
>>Example: Rolling exactly 7 in an Average task.
>>        Fumble: An exact roll of 2 is always a failure, regardless of
>>DMs. Can give rise to a 3D mishap.
>>
>>Mishap table (2D or 3D)
>>- - ----------------------------------
>>2       reroll
>>3+      No damage
>>6+      Superficial
>>9+      Minor
>>12+     Major
>>15+     Really serious
>>18+     Destroyed
>>- - ----------------------------------
>
>How about 4d mishaps ?

        If you use 4D mishaps, you have to add two levels, 21+ and 24+. I do
not like rolling more than 3D, even for mishaps. I think 2D/3D is enough to
distinguish among mishaps.
>>
>>Combat System:
>>        Use the T4 difficulty levels and weapon DMs for the to hit tasks.
>>        For assessing damage, refer to the result of the task
>>        Fumble: Implement a 2D mishap.
>>        Spectacular Failure: Failed
>>        Failure: Failed
>>        Marginal Success: Only 1D damage from the attack is taken.
>>        Success: Normal T4 rules. Maximum 3D damage.
>>        Spectacular Success: No maximum damage, all the damage of the
>>weapon is taken.

>Well then how is Spectacular Success any better than a regular Success
>if you are using a weapon that only does 1 to 3 dice of dammage anyway
>?  Otherwise this is good.

        I know, there's no difference for 1 to 3 D damage weapons. Why
should there be? After all, these are "low damage weapons", you are not
usually able to do a lot of damage with them.. if you want to, then do
called shots.

>This is a really good system.  I posted something similar a few months
>ago but your system seems better, in my system task difficulty went up
>by fours which may have been too harsh.

        Thanks... I think there should be a relationship between the 3:1
attr:skills assumption and the increase in levels, at least for mnemonic
purposes.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:10:17 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: 2d Task System

Andy:

Post It!

<If anyone is interested, I will post it. It fixes some very old problems
<with the MT system and is certainly easier than T4.

<Andy Brick
<exeus@compuserve.com
<http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/exeus/

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:07:00 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Core Sector Data

One Question to the people who wrote M:0:
Could you maybe post the original sector data and map that you had 
planned to include in M:0? Somehow, I don't like the way that they 
are done in FS and would also rather have a Core Sector that jives 
with the information as presented in the text of M:0. 
You would be of great assistance to me and my campaign if you posted 
the data. There shouldn't be a copyright problem, since it wasn't 
published by IG and probably never will be, right? 
Thanks already,

 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Apology

 
	I want to apologize to the Americans, Australian, British and
even the French members of this list for the clearly UN-Canadian
behaviour of some of my fellow citizens.  Note that we tend to ignore
members of the Raciwups Reform party most of the time in any case.
 
	If you do wish to complain to someone, please do it to those
who haven't tried to do Traveller-related stuff with this topic -
you'll soon see who deserves to be ignored from now on and who
retains his dignity.
 
	Play on.  

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:53:54 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Product Question

At 11:44 am 04/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I was checking around the Imperium Games WP the other day and checked out
>the products section. There was a listing in the upcoming products for a
>FF&S and a Naval Architects Handbook.
>
>I have heard both titles used for the detailed ship design system. Which is
>which and what is the other going to be?

	Pending Joe "The Answer Man" Walsh weighing in: FF&S is the design system.
From what I understand, NAH will be a supplement on creating
deckplans--ideas, artwork, discussion, etc.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:50:28 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS Anomalies

At 10:59 pm 04/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I was trying to build a starship using SSDS and ran into a few questions.
>Suggestions are welcome.
>
>The Controls and Electronics section says "for Standard automation,
>multiply the values listed by 5%". They have got to mean multiply the
>values by 105%, or increase by 5%, unless Standard automation really is 20
>times cheaper than Low automation.

	*Sigh* Yes that's another correction that somehow didn't get made. I'm
pretty sure I sent it in to them ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 18:42:36 +0200
From: marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
Subject: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

Welcome to VilaniWorld!

I'm just back from a short stay in Disneyland Paris, and I started
wondering about TL 12+ amusement parks.

First of all, even the best theme park would probably be of local
(in-system) interest at best. I can't really imagine anyone who would
take a 2-week round trip (plus associated costs) just to visit an
amusement park.
It's more "realistic" to envision a franchising scheme: you buy/rent
equipment, know-how (and the rights to use the name) from a
MegaCorporation which works on theme parks, and then create the place
on your planet...  just like Disneyland Paris, in a sense.

A classical staple of these places is the concept of different
"zones". They tipically consist of a "Western", "Pirates" and
"Fantasy" zone, plus, in some cases, "Far Future" or other
high-action themes.

This poses a problem... even if "Western" is a purely American
concept, most boys and girls on earth know about Indians and Cowboys
and can enjoy the place. The same for Fairy Tales and similar Fantasy
themes.  What would the themes be for a Star Spanning culture?
Perhaps you could draw ideas from the basic services (i.e.
ScoutLand, MerchantLand, MarineLand...) which should be a sort of
cultural glue for the Imperial culture, after all. Another natural
would be the obvious "AncientLand" theme, and possibly a "local" zone
(V-Land, Regina-Land, whatever...) which could use themes linked to
the local society and culture.
Aliens themes (VargLand) could be a possibility, but they should show
some respect to the original race or risk some serious action from
enraged aliens dignitaries.

The other problem is the attractions themselves.
Any idea on what you could offer, given the high TL, and barring VR
(for reasons I'll explain later) ?
The most obvious idea is the massive use of robots, just like in the
_Westworld_ movie. In fact, the robots in the movie seem compatible
with the ideas in CSC (big central computers would control the
various units).
Given the high cost and limited use of robots in CSC, their use in
large numbers for amusement purposes seems logical enough to me...
The widespread use of robots suggests a kind of theme park in which
people would take part in some sort of LARP, just like in the movie,
and this would probably be enjoyed mostly by adults.
You could probably intermix the two ideas (LARP and conventional
theme park). For example you, as an adult, could buy a special ticket
which allows you to take part in some kind of adventure against robot
opponents inside one of the zones, and at the same time you will act
as part of the background action for other visitors which enjoy the
"conventional" attractions.
You could choose various kind of adventures, combat-oriented, spy
stories, romance, solo or team missions and vary the violence, sex
and physical action levels to suit your tastes and your age group.

So, any ideas on this? I'd like to have some input on more
"conventional" attractions (rides, rollercoasters and so on).
Obviously you could do a lot with VR and simulators, but this goes
against some of the ideas behind amusement parks, IMHO.
The attractions should be enjoyed by large groups of people at the
same time, instead of creating artificial cocoons in which everyone
plays alone. This should be expecially true in Vilani culture, I
think, and would be consistent with the rest of Traveller universe,
where VR seems to be largely downplayed.

Also, does anybody know about published supplements (even
non-Traveller one) dealing with this idea? I already have access to a
couple of non-SF theme parks (one for TopSecret and another for Call
of Cthulhu, IIRC), but I'm looking for SF stuff.


__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1266
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1267



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Milieu 0
Re: Precious materials
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: Product Question
Re: All tech levels
APRIL THUDDD RESULTS
Fun with the Animals
Re: Sport in the Imperium
RE: Apology
re: xenoconductivity
[none]
TL 12 Sports Car
Re: Griffen-class SDB
Re: Sports in Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:56:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gordon W. Rycroft" <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Milieu 0

On 27 Apr 1997 20:37:10 GMT Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca> wrote:

[regarding Milleu 0]
 
>I noticed that the system data in the back of the book had identical gov. codes
>and law levels for every world.  This is a _major_ oops.  Anyone have the
>correct official data for these systems?

The same mistake is made in First Survey (along with no class X starports and Tech Levels 
assigned to barren worlds and four worlds listed as racial homeworlds when they're barren and 
Vland having a population of 2000...)

Expect any errata for First Survey (from whence, I believe, the Milleu 0 data was taken) to be 
about as long as First Survey...

Gordon

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Tirade is (c) 1997 G.W.Rycroft, and shall not,
by way  of trade or otherwise, be forwarded, cut-and-pasted,
plagerised, or otherwise circulated without the author's
prior consent  unless you really feel like it or can suggest a
better sigfile for him.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:03:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Precious materials

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Nick Munn wrote:
> 
> With all due deference to one who may know an awful lot more than I 
> about the practicalities of semiconductors, this strikes me as a 
> little unlikely.  Because the energy gap between diamond's full and 
> empty energy levels, which is in the eV range IIRC, even really 
> serious amounts of doping mightn't make it a very good semiconductor. 
> Especially as the most chemically feasible dopants would be boron and 
> nitrogen - other candidates are too big to fit easily into a diamond 
> lattice - which don't have atomic energy levels particularly suitable 
> for doping, I believe.
> 
> Diamond does have some obvious advantages as a semiconductor over 
> silicon, but the band-gap may be just too large for it to semiconduct 
> properly at typical voltages.

actually, IIRC the talk of using diamond as 'semiconductors' refers to
using a diamond base for semiconductor substrates to be laid upon, since
diamond has some serious advantages over silicon as far as heat
tolerance, dissipation, etc goes. However, this is half-remembered from a
Sci-Am blurb from a 'couple of months ago', and as I found out recently my
personal concept of 'A couple of months' is on the order of two to two
and a half years, and 'a couple of years' is anything up to ten years ago.

(I went looking up an 'Air and Space' reference from 'a couple of years
ago', and found it was from 1986.)


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:11:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Paolo Marino wrote:
> 
> Also, does anybody know about published supplements (even
> non-Traveller one) dealing with this idea? I already have access to a
> couple of non-SF theme parks (one for TopSecret and another for Call
> of Cthulhu, IIRC), but I'm looking for SF stuff.

One of the last Challenge issues took up this subject; it had an adventure
that took place in a Virus infested 'playland' (Someone had lived in
Westchester for that one!)

IIRc (the thing's at home and I haven't read it in a while) the amusment
park, other than some neato-keano animatronics (now trying to kill the
players :-> was remarkably similar to modern day theme parks: lots of
rides that produce variant gee forces, and games dependent on DEX.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:20:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Product Question

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> 	Pending Joe "The Answer Man" Walsh weighing in: FF&S is the design system.
> From what I understand, NAH will be a supplement on creating
> deckplans--ideas, artwork, discussion, etc.

Right.  A good way to look at it is, FF&S is like FF&S from the TNE era. 
NAH will be on creating deckplans...plus some SOM-type stuff, if I recall 
correctly.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
- -----------------+  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:13:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gordon W. Rycroft" <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: All tech levels

>Leonard Erickson writes:

>>Then any world with a starport has to be TL-10 or so. Ain't what happens.
>>It has to be *local* tech, otherwise the starport type wouldn't
>>*modify* the TL, it'd set a *minimum*.

A type E class starport is little more than a level area with some landing 
markings (and maybe the Third Imperium version of a roadside cafe/ 
T-Stop/Diner/whatever it may be called in your locality.)  The Incas managed 
that much!

Gordon

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Tirade is (c) 1997 G.W.Rycroft, and shall not,
by way  of trade or otherwise, be forwarded, cut-and-pasted,
plagerised, or otherwise circulated without the author's
prior consent  unless you really feel like it or can suggest a
better sigfile for him.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:18:39 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: APRIL THUDDD RESULTS

After fighting a bit of a virus this past weekend, I'm getting around to
looking at all the mail that came in.  First priority was to get the THUDDD
done. :)

(If you are looking for a message from me for something else, gimmee a day
or so, I'm working on 'em. :) )

And now, the moment you've all been waiting for...

(the envelope please)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(the envelope opener please)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

OK, the overall winner of the April THUDDD (Patrol Cruiser) Competition is...

Tlaxcala class Patrol Cruiser
Ce Acatl's April THUDDD entry 
Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
OVERALL SCORE: 2.89

THE DESIGN:

Ship/Class Name & Type: "Tlaxcala" class Patrol Cruiser         (QSDS 1.5)

Tons:   500 Std (Slab S)        Volume:   7000 m3       Cost:   519.8 MCr
Crew:   24                      Hi/Md P:  2             Low P:  0
Cargo:  4 Std                   Controls: Fib/Bridge    TL:     12

Size:   8                              2 Jump (50 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                       4 Maneuver (T-plate, 20000 T/Thr)
Lsr trt 2 x (+4) 1/2-0-0-0           8.6 Power Plant (2000 + 2x75 MW)
Lsr bay 1 x (+4) 1/6-6-6-5           123 Fuel (S 200 R 5)
Msl trt 1                              0 Meson Screen
Msl brb 0                              2 Sandcasters (60 cans)
MFD     1 x (+4) (4 ctrld)             0 Nuclear Damper
Msn gn  0                     A10 P4 J10 Sensors (0 Stealth/Cloak)
PA gun  0                             20 Armor        16 Structure
                                      66 Length (m)

Crew    24 ( 1 elec 4 engr 2 mnvr 4 gun 2 scrn 2 craft 4 troops
             3 cmd 1 stwd 1 medic )

Facilities: 1 sickbay (2 beds)
            1 missile armory (3 Std)

Min Hgr 1 x 20 Std craft
        (or any combination totaling 20 Std)

***

Ce Acatl Corporation is very pleased to submit its entry for the
third ISBA THUDDD Competition:  the CP-5R "Tlaxcala" class Patrol
Cruiser.  Tlaxcala (tlahsh-CAH-lah) was a region of prestellar Terra
noted for its proud warrior tradition; we have attempted to live up
to this reputation with our vessel, a worthy addition to any navy or
corporate security force.

A patrol cruiser must be capable of fulfilling a wide variety of
operational roles.  Chief among these are:

* Commerce escort, customs, and anti-piracy duty
* Search and rescue
* Coordination with larger fleets in system defense and interdiction

The Tlaxcala performs admirably in each of these roles.  In battle,
this vessel is both deadly and tough.  Its primary armament is a
devastating 1.3 gigawatt Thompson-Simmons bay laser, capable of
crippling (or destroying outright) most pirate vessels at
multi-lightsecond ranges.  As short range backup offensive and
point-defense weaponry, two independent 30 megawatt T-S turret lasers
provide that added measure of confidence any ship captain going into
combat desires.  Twin Dohetti sandcasters and tough hull armor let
the Tlaxcala shrug off any fire from the bad guys.  Finally, an
industry standard missile turret designed expressly for this vessel,
linked to an ample missile armory, gives the Tlaxcala the added punch
to deal with larger targets...and a fully integrated master fire
director makes sure those punches land *hard*.  Finally, the standard
crew complement includes four ship's troops, to be employed as
escorts during customs inspections, as boarders, or as security
aboard prize vessels.

None of this does any good if you can't find the enemy, of course --
and that's why the Tlaxcala mounts an advanced active/passive sensor
suite (conforming to Imperial Navy standards) to help you flush even
the stealthiest quarry from cover.  This capability is an important
asset in search and rescue operations as well, as is the
military-grade long-range redundant commo suite -- critical for
coordinating with larger fleets.  If a ship is in the system...lying
in wait for helpless freighters, or drifting with a blown powerplant
and a malfunctioning radio...you'll find it in time with the
Tlaxcala.

And get there in time, too.  With a CAC J2 drive, and 4G maneuver
capability, this ship has the legs to get you to the action fast
enough to make a difference.  Fuel scoops and an on-board purifier
let you operate away from civilization indefinitely, for those long
patrols.

The Tlaxcala comes equipped with a two-bed state-of-the-art sickbay,
to handle both routine medical situations while on prolonged duty and
combat-related injuries.  To stabilize more seriously traumatized
patients for transport to a hospital, a 4-person emergency low berth
is also provided.

A minimal 20-Std hangar is provided, but no small craft are shipped
with the vessel.  We suggest a 20-Std fast pinnace, two 10-Std
launches or fighters, or four 5-Std fighters.  Our sales department
will be happy to discuss the options with you, and can provide
assistance in arranging a coordinated purchase plan that suits your
needs.

With all three command crew in large staterooms, and the 21 other crew
in single-occupancy small staterooms, one large and one small stateroom
remain unoccupied.  These can be used by visiting personnel, as additional
storage space, or as briefing rooms.  More rooms can easily be freed up
by imposing double occupancy on some or all of the crew.

Finally, the price of the Tlaxcala is attractively low -- both in
terms of initial purchase price, and cost of ownership.  Ce Acatl
Corporation is committed to full compliance with Imperial and ISBA
standards in ship design and construction, and to the use of
off-the-shelf standard components wherever practical.  This
standardization benefits our customers in two ways: Low vessel unit
cost, and easy acquisition of replacement parts.  Additionally, the
craft can be operated and maintained by any Imperially-certified crew
without special training.

The Ce Acatl "Tlaxcala" -- fast, versatile, powerful, inexpensive.  Don't
launch your next patrol with anything less!

***

Designer's Notes

The most unusual design element is the bay laser, a bit out of
proportion on this size of ship.  The whole vessel ends up looking
like a mount for this weapon; one might even think of it as a baby
spinal mount.  My reasoning was that for a patrol vessel, having an
extremely powerful main weapon would help end fights quickly, and at
long range -- both highly useful.  Just the deterrant value of a 1.3
GW laser on a vessel this size can't be discounted.

The power and reach of the bay laser helps compensate for the 4G maneuver
rating.  Ideally, a patrol cruiser should be fast enough to chase down
any opponent -- but 6G designs left too little room for the other
components I wanted, and also would have involved going beyond "pure"
QSDS.  In the end, I decided that 4G plus the ability to hit targets
at very long range gave the same operational capability -- if your
target tries to run away, you can keep pounding him for quite a while
as he flees at 2G max relative separation acceleration.


- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

The Ratings for the winners follow...

OVERALL

1. Tlaxcala class Patrol Cruiser                     2.89
     Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

2. Crimson class Patrol Cruiser                      3.11
     Steven Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com>

3. Generica Starships Model 45212 - Patrol Cruiser   3.25
     Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

********************

MOST LIKELY TO USE IN A GAME

1. Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser              2.44
     Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>

2. Crimson class Patrol Cruiser                      3.11
     Steven Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com>

3. Drakken Class Patrol Cruiser                      3.22
     Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>

6. Tlaxcala class Patrol Cruiser                     3.44
     Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

********************

CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS

1. Generica Starships Model 45212 - Patrol Cruiser   2.88
     Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

2. Crimson class Patrol Cruiser                      3.00
     Steven Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com>

3. Erlir Class Patrol Cruiser                        3.13
     Chris Cox <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>

5. Tlaxcala class Patrol Cruiser                     3.44
     Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

********************

MOST EFFICIENT DESIGN

1. Tlaxcala class Patrol Cruiser                     3.22
     Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

2. New Victoria Guardian-class Patrol Cruiser        3.56
     Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>

2. Crimson class Patrol Cruiser                      3.56
     Steven Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com



********************

MOST UNUSUAL DESIGN

1. Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser              1.67
     Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>

2. Tlaxcala class Patrol Cruiser                     2.22
     Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

3. Crimson class Patrol Cruiser                      2.89
     Steven Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com 


    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:00:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Fun with the Animals

This is just a quick note about our furry friends.

I've got an animal encounter coming up in my game Sunday.  When T4 
first came out I noticed, like many did, that you couldn't figure out 
how to allow animals attack in their section in Book 1.

I understand that this is going to be fixed (thank God) in 
T4-revised, but I need a stop gap measure until that comes out.

At first, I was goint to use the 8+ system in CT since so much of CT 
and T4 are interchangeable, but low and behold, I've found a better 
stop gap in an unlikely source--TNE.

CT and TNE seem to be diametrically opposed in most areas, but the 
TNE animal system really fits right into the game mechanics in 
T4--better than CT's or MT's.

I never liked TNE, but I bought all the stuff.  I did appreciate some 
of the thing that they were trying to accomplish in the game, but in 
many instances, the TNE game mechanics are clunky, unweildy, and just 
plain hard to implement in a game.

But, I've always liked the detail they attempted in TNE--it's just 
that the extra time you put into rolling that detail was not worth 
the enjoyment you got from having that detail there.

Role playing games are always a ballance between detail and ease of 
play.

But, as a stop gap measure, I suggest the animal system in TNE as a 
good subsititute for T4 until the official rules come out.

There's notes for animal initiative, there's a way to roll up an 
animal stat, and the bonus from the animal's weapon takes the place 
of the skill level.

I really like the notes by the animal weapon types that tell you to 
treat the attack as an armed melee attack, diving blow, strangle, 
etc.   (I converted these melee attack forms to T4 a week or so ago 
and posted them to the TML.  If you want them and didn't get them, 
let me know).

I'm not saying to use TNE as it is.  I'm saying that there's a lot of 
good ideas in it that you can convert over to your game.

I'm not going to put a lot of effort into it with the new T4 rules 
coming out.  I guess I'm just going to take Eris' approach and wing 
it--converting, very unscientifically and non-statistically, over to 
KBv2.0.

If anybody else has an animal encounter they are planning for their 
players, you should look at the TNE rules for inspiration.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:57:37 -0700
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

- ----------
> From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium
> Date: Sunday, April 27, 1997 9:07 PM
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/27/97 EST, Eris wrote <snipped severely>:
> 
> >...I had a Navy Captain character in a game a while back that had been
>on
> the Academy Gravball team.  He used gravball references and >metaphors
all
> the time..drove the other PC's nuts.  <g> He followed >gravball teams at
> all his duty stations....
> 
> Excellent idea!  This got me to thinking...  I went into the Rutherford
> Archives (dusty spare room full of stored games, household appliances,
> etc.) and found my old copy of FASA's Gravball... Very similar to Eris'
> comments...  What a simple way to add flavor to yr game!
> There may be the makings of a Fantasy Gravball League here for my players
> (none of whom have ever seen the game - which wasn't, as I recall, all
that
> bad!)...  Has anybody out there tried this with yr players, and if so,
with
> what results? 


i had my group experiance what happens sometimes when the home team
loses.. and riot's start involing fan's from both teams..... Grav ball
should
be added to T4 as the major sport..... it's one of the only games i could
see
in the game... be sides no rules football.... like Blood Bowl...... but we
found
one problem and that was you needed to keep the teams pretty close to each
other so you needed a bunch of high tech worlds close enough to form a
leauge... and then you could have a semi finals...... i haven't played much
with the grav ball..games..... i have a list of teams but no names for the
players
yet.... with the PC's want info on the current games played i roll a few
dice
to determine the score..... and it's purely random.... so even i don't know
who's
going to win.... the Champion ship!



				- Rob

Farpoint@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:01:47 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Apology

>	I want to apologize to the Americans, Australian, British and
>even the French members of this list for the clearly UN-Canadian
>behaviour of some of my fellow citizens.  Note that we tend to ignore
>members of the Raciwups Reform party most of the time in any case.
>
>	If you do wish to complain to someone, please do it to those
>who haven't tried to do Traveller-related stuff with this topic -
>you'll soon see who deserves to be ignored from now on and who
>retains his dignity.

	This reply really belongs in private e-mail, and I have made a long 
response to Pierre-Louis privately, but I simply can't let this vicious 
attack on me go without reply.

	I am not a racist. The Reform Party of Canada, of which I belong to and am 
an active member in, is not racist. This attack on my personal character is 
totally uncalled for, especially as I have never made any kind of personal 
attack on anyone on this list. And I find it hilarious that someone who 
believes in sepratism is calling ME un-Canadian.

	I feel I have said nothing that requires an apology.

	I merely said several times that a discussion of Canadian politics does 
not belong on the TML. I said it before Pierre-Louis had said anything on 
the topic. And when the thread continued, I said it more forcefully. When 
Pierre-Louis tried to 'Travellerize' the thread, I merely pointed out a 
different view of the Quebec situation - a view that I, and many other 
Canadians, hold. If he wants to continue that particular sub-thread, I'd be 
more than happy to continue.

	If people feel that I have made inappropriate postings to this list, 
please tell me IN PRIVATE. I invite you to do so. My e-mail address is at 
the top, and bottom, of this message. I wil mention that I did receive a 
few "right on" type comments about my postings, but this is the first 
negative one.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:11:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: xenoconductivity

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>
> Does life *require* that the body be conductive? I suppose not, at least
> the outer part. Are electrolytic substances required for life as we know
> it? Would some race in charted space be unable to turn on the lights or
> operate a microwave on Vland, or Terra, or Sylea?

My Mac powerbook has a 'track pad' which seems to work by a similar
principle. It requires a finger to work it (material stops it and water
(damp fingers!) really confuse it. So, it could be really interesting if
this technology was used to control starship equipment....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:38:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett wrote:
<<In a real asteroid field, you are unlikely to be able to see one rock from
another without a good telescope and someone telling you where to look.
(Small asteroid "moons" like Ida's excepted).  So, yes, that and most
artistic portrayals of asteroid belts (like the cover of 2300's Nyotekundu
sourcebook, aaaargh) as chock-ful of tumbling and colliding chunks of rock
acting like a celestial Cuisinart to any ships so foolish as to enter...>>

Now, IIRC Nyotekundu is set in a GG ring, from which they are mining ice.
Wouldn't the density be somewhat higher?

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:28:37 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: TL 12 Sports Car

	After owning CSC a few months, this is my first attempt at creating a 
vehicle. Please tell me what you think.

	Also, I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to calculate top speed 
on this beast. And help out there? It should be simply huge.


Sylea (Core) - FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

	BMWAG LIC is proud to announce that its new 2-door sports coupe, the 
4502csg will be for sale at dealerships on 120-0030.

	The 4502csg is quite simply the ultimate flying machine. It has the 
fastest acceleration of any grav car for sale to the public in the Third 
Imperium. It has been designed using start-of-the-art grav-racing 
technology adapted for the public skies, but without sacrificing any of the 
luxuries BMWAG cumstomers have come to expect in our grav cars.

	Highlites of the car are the neck-snapping 20.3G acceleration, full 
leather interior, comfortable 12-way adjustable seating for 2, the latest 
version of Sylean Roadgrid technology, and a full 19.5G gravitic 
compensation.
	
	But most importantly, the 4502csg is designed to feel like a sports car. 
Whats the point of 20.3G acceleration if you feel like you are standing 
still. Thats why the 4502csg comes with BMWAG's patented Vario-Grav, which 
allows inside pasengers to feel up to 1.0Gs of acceleration within the car 
at full acceleration, and progressively less at lower accelerations.

	BMWAG - The Ultimate Flying Machine.

###

					Volume	Mass	Power	Price
					m3	ton	MW	KCr
Displacement  1.00			11.2
Streamlined Box, 3.75mx1.95mx1.95m
Chassis, Structurecomp, 20.5G		2.3	2.3		92.17
Armour (Structurecomp, .06cm)			.02		.81
1 Control Station			1	0.1
1 Passenger				1	0.1
Basic Life Support			.0007	.0007	.000013	.04
Continental Comm System		.0001	.0002	.001	2.5
SubCont Civ Sensor			.03	.06	.01	25
Auto Sunroof							0.2
Anti-Theft system						0.1
Roadgrid				.0112	.0025		1.12
Grav Compensators (19.5G)		1.65	3.30	1.15	82.39
ContraGrav Thrust			4.3	2.80	1.51	43
Fusion+					.556	1.11	-2.67	5.56
Fuel (water)				0.3	0.3

Total					+.03	10.01	0	252.59KCr

215 tons of thrust, 20.3G of forward acceleration
837 hours of continuous operation

No storage space!

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Griffen-class SDB

I just wanted to say that I think this is an excellent name for a starship
class! ;-)

Just know that the "en" spelling is the Welsh variant. The more common
"griffon" and "griffin" are the more recognized spellings for the mythical
lion/eagle hybrid.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 20:57 BST-1
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Subject: Re: Sports in Imperium

In-Reply-To: <199704280713.DAA27904@phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM>
 Mikko Parviainen said on 28 April:

> A year ago there was discussion on sports, and somebody told
> that he hadrules and maps for gravball. I got them from him,

Yes, that was me -- and not just map and rules, but counters for 
you to print out and glue to the back of the first piece of 
cardboard that you could lay your hands on.


> but
> somehow my zipfilewas corrupted, so I don't have all maps

That's a pity. If you want, I can send it to you again (and to 
anyone else who wants a copy).

Nick Law
nicklaw@cix.co.uk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1267
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1268



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Product Question
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
I'm working on a "Brilliant Lances" Scenario...
Re: Giving the south AK47s
Re: APRIL THUDDD RESULTS
Guns to the Confederacy -- *TWO* *SEPARATE* *STORIES*
Re: [off topic] Who we are.
Re: [T97#1262] Time Travel/Harrison
Re: Imperial recruitment practices
Imperium does not claim worlds
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
The physics of Jumpspace (was: IR Masking)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:18:07 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Product Question

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:20:54 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> > 	Pending Joe "The Answer Man" Walsh weighing in: FF&S is the design system.
> > From what I understand, NAH will be a supplement on creating
> > deckplans--ideas, artwork, discussion, etc.
> 
> Right.  A good way to look at it is, FF&S is like FF&S from the TNE era. 
> NAH will be on creating deckplans...plus some SOM-type stuff, if I recall 
> correctly.

So... the quote from the catalog should have read more along the lines
of "Everything from ground cars to grav tanks, system patrol boats to
X-Boat tenders..."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      (or some other starship type).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:22:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

At 01:42 AM 4/28/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> In my Lunion subsector campaign Rollerball (like the movie) is the rage.
>> Every three years there's an interplanetary competition for the subsector
>> title.. lots of possibilities, from pulling a Tonya Harding to transporting
>> rabid fans to the finals.
>
>For what it is worth, the local SF club (PorSFiS) has pins and bumper
>stickers that say "I support Little League Rollerball". And every once
>and a while they have a "PorSFiS Rollerball team practice" (they get
>together at a local amusement park that features a roller-skating
>area).

Much coolness!  How could I get my hands on some of those items?  I have
money, or rare artifacts from Bay Area fannish history.

Tenner City Dreadnoughts in '06!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

In my current campaign, I had the PCs' mercenary organization tasked with
providing security for the Mora Dukes during the Regency Gravball
Championship Tournament on Vincennes/Deneb.

I devised rules for the game (a lot like a hybrid of soccer and
American-style football) and had the players interact quite a bit with the
team, fans, the media on occasion ("Excuse me? Why has a paramilitary
contractor been employed to guard a team during the largest sporting event
in the Regency?) and the team's owner, Al Morai exec Gezimhi Sanseverino.

It was a lot of fun and contributed to the idea that all these interstellar
systems are in some way connected culturally.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:15:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

  Wasn't there an adventure for TNE published in Challenge that was set in
an amusement park?  Or was it in Traveller Chronicle?  Man, I hate having
all but my M0 stuff several thousand miles away.

  Anyway, as I recall the adventure did include robots, including a clear
rip-off of Bugs Bunny(tm) and other cartoon characters, unnamed for
copyright reasons.  Might have some interesting ideas along the lines you 
were considering.

  Amusement parks have an interesting history, actually (my course on
Popular Culture includes a section on them, if you must know where this
info comes from).  They developed in the 19th century as a place for the
new urban middle class to go for recreation.  Most started as just what
the name sounds like - parks.  They were open areas, usually at the
outskirts of the city or by a seashore, and were a green and pleasant
alternative to the crowded, pre-mass transit/automobile inner city.   They
were usually built by mass transit companies, since the traffic to and
from the parks on weekends provided an additional source of revenue on
days when commuters were not going to work.

  Initially, entertainment centered around pastoral activities - you could
walk about and see the trees and flowers, listen to music, participate in
athletic contests, shoot at targets, that sort of thing.  As society as a
whole became more mechanised, amusement parks began to include more of
what we would think of as "rides" - mechanized entertainment.  This was
pushed along by the success of the World's Fairs, which often included
mechanized entertainment - the Ferris Wheel debuted at such a fair.

  The modern Theme Park was invented by Walt Disney, who saw a market for
family-oriented entertainment in the post WWII era.  By the 1930s,
amusement parks had largely become meeting grounds for teenagers and young
adults, a place where the new, urban mating rituals that centered on
dating and group activities could be carried out.  By presenting an
operation run by a single company, with activities for younger children,
and carefully designed to remove even the implied threat of disorder or
dirt, Disneyland tapped the growing suburban market.

  The modern theme park is essentially a product of a society that
worships the idea of childhood and the childlike state of being.  It is no
accident that Disneyland Japan is wildly succesful - talk about a
child-centered society that loves the idea of innocence.  Theme parks are
also a largely middle-class phenomena - the prices alone are enough to
keep the riff-raff out.  Theme parks in general, and Disney parks in
particular, strive to create the ideal suburban environment - clean, happy
people, with trash and sewage confined to the tunnels below ground.  There
are no homeless people in Theme Parks, no inter-racial violence (perhaps
because theme park customers are overwhelmingly white), nothing in short
that might be disturbing to the happy middle-class customers.

  Thus, VilaniWorld would say a great deal about Vilani society after a
short visit.  Since my copy of Cogs & Dogs is at home, I'll leave the
working out of this question for others.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: I'm working on a "Brilliant Lances" Scenario...

I've been working on a tournament scenario for "Brilliant Lances" (BL)
that I hope to run this year at DragonCon here in Atlanta.  I was
wondering if anyone on either the TML or the TNE-RCES lists would like to
look it over.  (I'd like to make it as enjoyable a tournament scenario as
I can.)  

If anyone would like to see a copy of this module, please let me know.  

Thank you.  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:03:15 +0001
From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Giving the south AK47s

Various people have continued the discussion on the use 
of technology in earlier eras, and most have quoted the following 
statement without comment:

<<One problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to
jamming as it is essentially an improvised weapon. >>

First of all, crude and unpleasant as it was it was not an improvised 
weapon. What it was was a cheap weapon - designed to be cheaply 
manufactured.
Secondly,  jamming was not it's major vice. Them major problem woth 
the weapon was it's tendancy to run away - firing unil the magazine 
was empty.

- -- 
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD RESULTS

*** PRESS RELEASE *** FOR IMMEDIATE ALL-MEDIA DISTRIBUTION ***

Ce Acatl Corporation Press Release (20-242.2)

CE ACATL WINS THUDDD SHIP DESIGN COMPETITION

Ce Acatl Corporation is very pleased to have received the first-place
award for its "Tlaxcala" Patrol Cruiser in the third THUDDD design
competition.  Sponsored by the Imperial Ship Builders Association (ISBA),
THUDDD provides a forum for competive ship design among Imperial naval
architecture firms, encouraging design innovation and excellence, and
filling the growing need for advanced, capable ships as our Empire grows. 
As a proud member of ISBA, and strong supporter of continuous improvement
in the shipbuilding industry, Ce Acatl has been an enthusiastic supporter
of the THUDDD competions from their inception.

"We congratulate our competitors for their excellent designs," commented
Arpidol Zilznik, Ce Acatl CEO.  "Any of these ships would be worthy
additions to the Imperial arsenal, or to the security arm of any large
corporation."

*** END OF PRESS RELEASE ***

Back to just me, again.  Now seems like a good time to mention that I'll
be handling the THUDDD 4 (May 97) competition, taking over for (and hoping
to do as good a job as) Paul Walker.  Thanks, Paul!  Let's have a round of
applause! ...

Anyway, the first step is to decide what ship to do next.  We've just done
two military ships in a row, so it will be a civilian, non-combat-oriented
vessel.  There are two potential classes I'm considering for May.

The first is a yacht, say 500-1000 dt.  This would be an interesting one,
as I think it would tend to emphasize the descriptive, textual portion of
the design as much as (if not more than) the number-crunching end.  The
downside is that it might prove difficult to compare the resulting pile of
"apples and oranges."  But this does seem to be a strong candidate, and
one that the list expressed a fair amount of interest in last time the
topic of future THUDDDs came up.

The second is an exploratory trader, along the lines of the 'Leviathan'
from CT.  This veseel would also be in the 500-1000 dt range.  The mission
profile here is long expeditions away from 'civilization', in search of
new markets and high-value trade items.  This makes the vesel quite
different from the Far Trader we did in February.

I will decide which one of these we'll do by Friday evening, 5/2, and
release the RFP over the weekend following that.  Between now and then,
please feel free to comment on the relative merits of the two choices
above, either directly to me or via the ISBA or TML lists (in decreasing
order of preference, in my view).

Things will run a little bit differently for the May THUDDD.  Only brief
notices about the stages in the competion will appear on the TML/ISBA
lists; detailed information will appear on the Web at

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

which I think will make things more manageable for everyone.  I'm working
on an online voting system as well, but that might not be ready before
June.  Stay tuned for more info.  Oh, and if anyone strongly objects to
taking the bulk of THUDDD off the mailing lists, please let me know
ASAP...this way looks better to me, but I've been accused of rampant
web-centrism before. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:06:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Guns to the Confederacy -- *TWO* *SEPARATE* *STORIES*

There are *two* separate stories ya'll have been discussing:

1) Turtledove's "Guns of the South," where th Civil War takes up only the
first *third* of the book!  South Africaaners bring *AK-47s* to Gen. Lee.  

2) A short story (whose title and author I can't remember).  A racist
bigot brings *Sten guns* to the Confederacy.  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:19:52 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Who we are.

At 11:35 AM 4/28/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>And your point being ...?
>
>I hope your not being so childish as to say "you did it so I can do it"?
>
>> At 11:50 AM 4/24/97 +1000, Solomani wrote:
>> >
>> >This whole thread is off topic, no?
>> 
>> It's just as on-topic as argueing wether Aristotle was a scientist.. and
>> more interesting to boot.

Please put what I say under the "Douglas E. Berry wrote:" bit.  It gets
confusing when you attribute a quote and immediately comment on it, then
print what you're responding to.

I was just making the point that since we on the TML often draw upon our
personal training and experience to develop our view of the Traveller
universe, it was interesting to see what people like Joe Walsh, Leonard
Erikson, and Mark Clark do out in the real world.

As for off-topic threads, they tend to die out on their own.  We have never
really needed self-appointed list cops to blow the whistle and announce that
the topic is out of bounds.  The only time in my memory that it got to be a
huge issue was the split between the hard core classic types and the TNEers,
which led to the list split.

Stop taking everything as a personal attack.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 17:26:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1262] Time Travel/Harrison

T::>@SUBJECT:Traveller-digest V1997 #1262
 ::>(Continued from last message)
 ::>>From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>

T::>>I'm sure I read a Harry Harrison book about a racist nutter who gets his
 ::>>hands on a time machine and then proceeds to travel back in time to the
 ::>>civil war and starts making Sten Guns to try and help the south win.
 ::>>On problem with the sten gun though is that it is rather prone to jamming
 ::>>as it is essentially an improvised weapon.

T::>This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
 ::>war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
 ::>similarly named Harry Turtledove?

 No, it was Harrison; I remember the book - hold on a sec, I
 have a copy, if I can find it... nope, seems to have fallen
 down behind my (cheap IKEA) bookshelves.

 I do remember, though, that it was less a Civil War story than
 a detective story - the Black protagonist was doing an
 investigation of the racist colonel for a secret US Gov't
 agency (QCIC - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?); the colonel had
 been doing some legal but unusual transactions in gold, and the
 facility where the colonel was head of security was a research
 facility where time travel was discovered.  The colonel drops
 back 150 years with the gold and the Sten with the intent of
 changing history; the investigator follows to stop him.  The
 book deals with history badly, but you don't notice it, as it
 tends to follow the protagonist at a personal level, rather
 than dealing with the history.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Free cheese is found only in a mousetrap.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:20:01 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial recruitment practices

At 01:15 PM 4/28/97 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

>I was. I remember a scene in one of Ellis Meacham's books about the Bombay
>Marine where Merewether get a company of sepoys aboard and gets a short
>list of what to feed who and what work he's allowed to put them to. And
>that was just for two different religions. Multiply that by the few dozen
>prejudices you can get from any culturally heterogenous world and multiply
>that by the number of worlds in the imperium and you get a situation that
>any Imperial commander would prefer to avoid.

Which is why Regiments in my model are recruited from the same region or
world.  The nine regiments in a Division may be of wildly different stock,
but since they keep seperate housekeeping, they need only interact in the
field, as soldiers.
 
>>If you assume computerized book-keeping and accounting (run by Vilani
>>quartermasters) then the logistics shouldn't be a problem.  
>
>Make that "shouldn't be an unsolvable problem" and I'll agree. My point is
>that it's a complication that the Imperial militaries would prefer to 
>avoid _if possible_. So the question becomes: 1) does the Imperial militaries
>have a sufficiently big manpower pool to select only compatible troops? And,
>b), is it politically possible for then to select only compatible troops?
>I think the abswer to the first part of the question is yes. The second
>part? Ay, that's the rub. Certainly we know that they use Aslan and Vargr
>troops. But Aslans and Vargr represent a not inconsiderable slice of the
>Imperial citizenry. Just because they cater to them is no proof that they'd
>cater to the followers of some obscure religion on a single world. Or to
>temperature-challenged people or bigots or...

Well, if the *Imperium* is selecting Army units for deployment from the
planetary armies, one of the main selection criteria is going to be "do they
play well with others?"  The Navy and Marines can afford to be selective..
they have a much smaller real manpower need..  Planetary armies, and the
components that they send into Imperial service, will number in the
*billions.*  If a world is incapable of supplying manpower due to its social
structure (the Virasians of Dlan come to mind.. the can't get to heaven if
they die off-world.) then you can bet that that world will help meet it's
obligation in some other manner.  Perhaps they would provide funds to raise
an equivilant unit on a world better suited to the purpose, or hire
mercenaries to fulfil their role.

>>It would be no different than having a species-specific regiment.  
>
>Oh yes it would. first of all the requirements of a species-specific 
>regiment are genuine ones. If, politically, you need to include Aslans
>in the military, then you _have_ to provide for their specific needs.
>But not eating this and not serving with people of particular shade or
>a particular religious or philosophical persuasion is an artificial
>problem. My gut reaction is that having to cater to a lot of genuine
>problems would make the Imperial militaries _less_ inclined to accept
>artificial problems.

Well, Aslan are something of a moot point since their physical makeup
requires significantly different equipment.

However, there are few human barriers that can't be taken care of with
military discipline.  Have a religious objection to mustard?  Fine, but
don't bitch about your bunk mate who puts it on his Corn Flakes. (true
story.. this guy was weird in a way I can only aspire too..)  In the Navy
and Marines, intolerance towards another service member due to race or any
so-called "immutable factor" would be met with quick action.  Indeed, there
are racist soldiers who hate blacks, but when it's pointed out that the
serve and live with blacks, will say "that's different, they're *soldiers*"

As for the Army, when units from differing cultures are brought together
there is a chance of friction.  But I look at NATO, and I wonder if the
problem is overstated.  In 1985 I went to Germany as part of Reforger.  We
had a British unit to our north, were being backed unit by a Dutch supply
unit, and were engaing a West German panzer unit to our front.  Four
distinct cultures, three languages, and we were all very patriotic.  What
happened was what always happened.. we got together and traded everything
that wasn't nailed down.  Since soldiers never change, I think this will
happen in the far future as well.

Maybe my view is biased by my being an American.. as Bill Murray put it in
"Stripes".. "We're Americans! Our ancestors were kicked out of every
civilised country on Earth.. We're the United States Army.. we're 11-1!"

I'm used to living in a melenge of cultures.

>Now, if you come up with something that is tied to a large slice of the
>Imperial citizenry (like most Vilani, or the followers of a pan-Imperial
>religion) then the Imperium could well be forced to cater to it. But 
>otherwise I doubt it.

How consistant is something "pan-Imperial" going to be?  Their are over 1000
different sects of Christianity in the United States, some of which will
come to blows when confronted with one another.  You might be in trouble if
you bunk those two adherents of the Great White Cabbage together, if one is
Corned Beef Synod and the other is Coleslaw, Reformed



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  "And crawling, on the planet's face..  Some    |
| insects, called the human race.  Lost in time,  |
|   and lost in space, and meaning.."  -RHPS      |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:31:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Imperium does not claim worlds

   Hi.

> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:30:40 -0400
> From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)

> I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space
> between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles
> on up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants
> if it owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its
> prime had over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium
> only claimed the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to
> tax .... So on and so on ...

   The Imperium controls extra-territorial lands on each world, called
   starports, from which the trade between the worlds is regulated.  In
   my campaign, these starports are granted as fiefs to nobles.  It is
   also possible, of course, for the emperor to own land on a world as a
   private citizen, and to grant such land in fief to one of his nobles.
   In such cases, of course, the noble is bound by the local law. Taxes
   are raised by the regulation of interstellar trade and as tribute
   from a world's interstellar armed forces.  Also keep in mind that in
   feudal societies, military service to a lord is usually a mandatory
   condition of any social contract; worlds must contribute to the
   emperor's armies.

> I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while
> member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they
> are still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member
> world, still has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the
> Imperium.

   You are probably right about it being complex, feudal politics
   usually are. The Imperium does have some rules and regulations:
   slavery is illegal on member worlds, as is use of nuclear and
   biological weapons.  By and large, however, the imperium does not
   maintain much of a presence on most worlds.  There are some notable
   exceptions: the military rule on worlds in the Solomani Rim, Imperial
   reserves, some red-zone worlds, and perhaps some feudal
   technocracies, dictatorships, and oligarchies are under direct
   Imperial rule.

   During the MT years, there was a movement among Trav writers to make
   the Imperium more like a modern European or American regulatory
   bureaucracy.  IMHO, this reflects a lack of imagination and should be
   avoided.  I suggest, as alternatives to contemporary life, that Trav
   use books like "Mote in God's Eye" and "Dune" for inspiration when
   making up political structure in the Imperium.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:55:54 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

Question: are starports/spaceports Imperial property, with their own
laws and law enforcers?  I believe this is true, but I thought I'd ask
anyways.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:55:52 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:50:05 -0600, you wrote:

> >> It will only work for fission powerplants, however.  Fusion operates on
> >> a different principle.
> 
> 	Nope, nuclear dampers work on fusion reactions as well. Otherwise they'd
> be completely worthless, as nobody *uses* fission warhead at higher
> TLs--it's all fusion. Even now, the main reason our big'uns use fission is
> solely as a detonator for the fusion warhead...

Hmmm... I was lead to believe that nuclear dampers operate by either
weakening or reinforcing the nuclear bonds within the fissile
materials (by increasing or decreasing the number of neutrons released
so that the textbook "chain reaction" necessary to create the
explosion cannot take place).

How would this effect be used to prevent a fusion reaction, which I
believe relies on high pressure/heat?  Are the release of neutrons
essential to a fusion reaction?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:55:55 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

On Mon, 28 Apr 97 18:42:36 +0200, you wrote:

> 
> Welcome to VilaniWorld!
> 
> I'm just back from a short stay in Disneyland Paris, and I started
> wondering about TL 12+ amusement parks.
> 
> First of all, even the best theme park would probably be of local
> (in-system) interest at best. I can't really imagine anyone who would
> take a 2-week round trip (plus associated costs) just to visit an
> amusement park.

The Griswalds in "National Lampoon's Vacation".  Just think of all the
fun you and your players can have on the way to WallyWorld (although
Vargr might not like the scene involving the dog, a state trooper, and
a long stretch of highway :)

> This poses a problem... even if "Western" is a purely American
> concept, most boys and girls on earth know about Indians and Cowboys
> and can enjoy the place. The same for Fairy Tales and similar Fantasy
> themes.  What would the themes be for a Star Spanning culture?
> Perhaps you could draw ideas from the basic services (i.e.
> ScoutLand, MerchantLand, MarineLand...) which should be a sort of
> cultural glue for the Imperial culture, after all. Another natural
> would be the obvious "AncientLand" theme, and possibly a "local" zone
> (V-Land, Regina-Land, whatever...) which could use themes linked to
> the local society and culture.

It would go a lot deeper than that.  Small theme parks would be
tailored to the history of that world, while larger theme parks would
be built around concepts that perhaps an entire subsector shared.

> Aliens themes (VargLand) could be a possibility, but they should show
> some respect to the original race or risk some serious action from
> enraged aliens dignitaries.

Just like today's Native Americans are still bothered by the concept
of "Cowboys & Indians".  The Pirates of the Caribbean in LA is
currently under review pending statements that the ride is not
"politically correct".

> So, any ideas on this? I'd like to have some input on more
> "conventional" attractions (rides, rollercoasters and so on).
> Obviously you could do a lot with VR and simulators, but this goes
> against some of the ideas behind amusement parks, IMHO.
> The attractions should be enjoyed by large groups of people at the
> same time, instead of creating artificial cocoons in which everyone
> plays alone. This should be expecially true in Vilani culture, I
> think, and would be consistent with the rest of Traveller universe,
> where VR seems to be largely downplayed.

"Amusement" parks aren't generally theme-related like "theme" parks,
thereby offering much more flexibility.  IMHO, amusement parks would
be heavier on bone-wrenching rides such as rollercoasters, gravity
rooms, 3D bumper cars, etc. than theme parks, which would concentrate
more on patrons actually interacting with the theme.

Some ideas:

TL12+ materials can allow rides to be constructed with very little
visible structural support, making the ride appear much more dangerous
(ie: compare old wooden rollercoasters with today's inverted ones).

Artificial gravity allows many actuators to be done away with and
replaced with gravity plates which move the riders around much more
directly.

A large mass driver which return visitors directly to their hotel
rooms half way around the planet :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:55:59 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: The physics of Jumpspace (was: IR Masking)

On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 14:09:20 -0400, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> >But the "heat dimension" bubble *does* interact with the "jump bubble"
> >on a 3D level-- since both bubbles originate within 3D space.  Since
> >the idea of both bubbles is to isolate the /3D world/ from either
> >dimension, they cannot help but interact at the /3D level/.
> 
> Hmmm...true. Yeah, I can see that they must interact. I was trying to get
> away from the unfortunate "hole" terminology that suggested it was an
> actual breech in the j-bubble. So perhaps my suggestion that it shares
> certain properties w/ the j-dimension (e.g. 100-diameter limit) is more
> important for its validity.

Actually, when the term "hole" was first mentioned, the first thing I
thought of was access hatch to the boiler of a steam locomotive.
"I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..."

I /do/ like the idea regarding WHY we haven't discovered any other
dimensions yet.  Perhaps Buckaroo Banzai will have to someday travel
out beyond the 100-diameter limit and perform a few experiments :)

> >To maintain your comparison between "j-dimension" and "h-dimension",
> >your waste heat must be converted into energy before it is dumped to
> >the heat sink "thingy" (remember, we are still in the Real World(tm)
> >at this point, and must abide by those rules).  Real World(tm) physics
> >also state that transforming heat energy into another form is *highly*
> >inefficient... this is where things get ugly.
> 
> So the heat energy itself cannot be used? It must be converted into 
> another form?

That's the way I see it-- unless the jump drive generates some sort of
mystical, handwaved form of energy (which I hope it doesn't).  AFAIK
Traveller canon claims that the jumpdrive consumes H2 to generate
electrical energy, which is then sent to the jump grid.  How that
energy reacts with the lanthanum that the grid is composed of is a
mystery.  DGP's Starship Operator's Manual claims that the lanthanum
hull grid allows this energy to interact in some way with the jump
dimension (causing the fabric of space to "unravel").

> (Y'all will have to help me out here, what little physics I've had was
> a *long* time ago) *sigh*

Yikes!  I thought *YOU* were the one with the physics background!  *I*
rely on the Discovery Channel and a 20+ year-old set of encyclopedias!

> So does this mean we now have to fall back on radiating the heat into
> the dimension instead of using it as a barrier against it?

I don't know, but I think so.  I renamed this thread to attract others
so that maybe they can shed some light on the subject.  Once we get a
better idea how people think jumpspace works, we can begin theorizing
on a heat sink dimension.

> >2) One breaks the laws of conservation of energy, which can open up a
> >whole new can of worms (ie: a fictitious universe is most stable if
> >handwaving is kept to a minimum).  Solar cells also absorb heat energy
> >from the local light source, which must be dealt with in some way.
> 
> But is there any real difference in game terms between the two? I know 
> that the cells require the solar input to function conserving energy, but
> in game terms that might as well be perpetual and thus "money for nothing".
> That's why I'd love to determine what the effeciency/power ratings on
> these things might be.

From the POV of a sentient being with a limited lifespan, I'd assume
that there would be no perceived difference between solar cells and a
perpetual motion machine.  On the grand scale of the universe,
however, things are different.

> Hmmm...so if we're breaking conservation...maybe we can bring thrusters
> into this as well...and thus tie the j-dimension, h-dimension, and t-dimension
> together. Great Scott, man! We're on the verge of finding the "Unified 
> Hand-Wave Theory"!!!!      :)

Yeah.  It's called "magic" :)

> >I actually like the idea of a heat sink dimension, but began to work
> >on the "against" side after Hans asked someone to try and disprove his
> >idea.  I'd like to be on the "for" side, but I think we need some more
> >input so that the use of a dimensional heat sink won't be abused.
> 
> That's what we're all out here kicking the tires for.

Careful.  Kicking tires at 3 degrees Kelvin isn't a good idea :)

> >Since you propose to base it on a principle similar to jump space, a
> >bit of handwaving can't really hurt (being built on the foundations of
> >previous canonical handwaving :)
> 
> That's it, man, come help us w/ the Universal Hand-Wave Theory! Soon
> fame, fortune, and little munchkin-babes in bikinis will be ours! :)

Question: Do they look like real Oz munchins?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1268
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 29 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1269



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: APRIL THUDDD RESULTS
Thrust Plates Revisited
Flood of the millenia
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Sten Guns
THUDD design
Next THUDDD ship class
RE: Flood of the millenia
Re: BSCS
RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Computer Tech
Re: Crimson class hull, and a question about HULLMAKER.XLS
Re: Some techincal questions
Asteroids (mostly)
Milleau 0
Re: Sports in Imperium
Re: Flood of the millenia
RE: Sports in Imperium
RE: Flood of the millenia
Zhodani Culture (was: Gays in the Imperium)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:02:49 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: APRIL THUDDD RESULTS

Craig Berry said:

>Anyway, the first step is to decide what ship to do next.
>We've just done two military ships in a row, so it will be
>a civilian, non-combat-oriented vessel.  There are two
>potential classes I'm considering for May.
>
>The first is a yacht, say 500-1000 dt.
> SNIP
>
>The second is an exploratory trader, along the lines of
>the 'Leviathan' from CT.  This veseel would also be in
>the 500-1000 dt range.  The mission profile here is long
>expeditions away from 'civilization', in search of new
>markets and high-value trade items.  This makes the
>vesel quite different from the Far Trader we did in February.

Sounds good to me.  The Exploratory Trader would (I think) be pretty
interesting.  However, I think the size it a bit small for the role
envisioned.  I would think the displacement range needs to be dialled up a
bit, perhaps to the 2,000 - 3,000 range.  I don't have the Leviathan
adventure here with me, but I seem to recall it being a larger (2000+ ton)
ship, with a significant carried vessel tonnage.  And this was with the
volume-friendly High Guard rules and TL15 technology.

Craig then continues:
>Things will run a little bit differently for the
>May THUDDD.  Only brief notices about the stages in
>the competion will appear on the TML/ISBA lists;
>detailed information will appear on the Web at
>
  >http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html
  >
>which I think will make things more manageable for
>everyone.  I'm working on an online voting system
>as well, but that might not be ready before June.
>Stay tuned for more info.  Oh, and if anyone
>strongly objects to taking the bulk of THUDDD off
>the mailing lists, please let me know ASAP...this
>way looks better to me, but I've been accused of
>rampant web-centrism before. :)

Well, three months ago this would have been a major problem, as I was not
web-enabled.  I don't know how much of the TML and ISBA membership are
web-enabled, but I suspect the number is not 100% (in fact, I suspect it is
only about 70%).  I would suggest keeping the THUDD announcements and the
final voting calls/final ship design posts on the TML/ISBA lists.  The
actual design entries don't need to go to the TML if the final design
detail list is posted there, of course; who needs to see the same design
twice?  I do like the idea of the web page, and I urge you to "go for it,"
but keep it on the TML/IBSA lists as well.  The more exposure we get, the
better the end result.

I know some folks on TML are less than happy about the large THUDDD posts,
but I would rather read those than have to deal with some of the sillier
off-topic threads the TML has hosted of late.  That being said, please note
that I have not posted a complaint to the TML, as its easy enough to ignore
posts one is not interested in.  And, having been a vocal participant in
some of the big US 2nd Amendment Threads/Flame Wars in the past, I really
can't be too judgmental about the topic-habits of others.  ;-)


BTW - regarding the recent THUDDD results:

"Aurelian Industries congratulates Ce Acatl Corporation on their selection
as primary-provider for the Imperial Navy's 'Escort/Patrol Cruiser, Light'
contract competition.  In accordance with Imperial regulations, Aurelian
Industries has disposed of the 12 prototype Crimson-class vessels, and we
urge the management of Ce Acatl to disregard the dozen bogeys approaching
their main orbital assembly facility at 5G."


Steven Charlton
Ex-Officio Spokeman for Aurelian Industries

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:28:46 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Thrust Plates Revisited

Here's an idea that struck me in the shower this morning:

	Thrust plates work by pushing on the gravitational field of a 
star or similar body (re: Starships, etc.). It may be that the drive 
grabs incoming gravitons, reverses them (so to speak) so they push the 
ship instead of pull it, and hype up their energy (so that each one 
pushes harder than usual). This way, you've got an explanation for:

	1) KE conservation: the ship is being pushes by gravitons, which 
are losing the appropriate energy;

	2) Size increases with thrust: more equipment and power is 
needed to pump the incoming gravitons to higher and higher energy 
levels;

	3) Drive inefficency past the system level: rapid fall-off of 
gravitational strength means less gravitons to work with.

	Comments?

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:39:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Flood of the millenia

If anyone was waiting for a response from me on anything, I just wanted you
to know I am not blowing you off, but am fighting the damn flood here in East
Grand Forks MN.  I am trying to catch up on the mail when I have time.

Sorry this has nothing to do with Traveller.  ;X

Regards

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:35:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> Question: are starports/spaceports Imperial property, with their own
> laws and law enforcers?  I believe this is true, but I thought I'd ask
> anyways.

Yes, they are extraterritorial Impperial property. They may or may not
have extradition treaties with the local planetary authorities.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:31:13 +0100
From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Sten Guns

Nick Meredith wrote:
> First of all, crude and unpleasant as it was it was not an improvised
> weapon. What it was was a cheap weapon - designed to be cheaply
> manufactured.
> Secondly,  jamming was not it's major vice. Them major problem woth
> the weapon was it's tendancy to run away - firing unil the magazine
> was empty.
- ---The main problem with the early model Sten Guns my father told me was
their tendancy to fall apart if dropped,this happened to the Canadians
at Dieppe.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:45:45 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@netins.net>
Subject: THUDD design

Udararuukin LIC would like to thank all participating judges for their
evaluation of the Akishu Irirkhan class patrol cruiser. While our design
did not take top honors in the primary competition, we are extremely
pleased with it's performance in other categories, particularly the
Inovation (Uniqueness) category.

The performance of the design has prompted Udararuukin to begin limited
production of the design. Please contact our sales office to place an
order.

Udararuukin looks forward to future design contests and the oportunity to
present more inovative starship designs.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:14:26 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Next THUDDD ship class

Craig Berry wrote:

[snip]
>
>The first is a yacht, say 500-1000 dt.  This would be an interesting one,
[snip]


	Well, I have been thinking about taking another look at the
Caligula-class megayacht..:).  However, as you point out, it'd probably
turn into a creative-writing contest rather than a design contest.

	Unless, of course, we were to come up with requirements for the
Imperial Yacht Match Racing Association Ardunia's Cup-class racing yacht.
However, given that we'd be optimizing for speed and nothing else, I don't
think that the design systems provide fine enough resolution for us to
actually compete; we'd probably all wind up with more or less identical
designs.


>The second is an exploratory trader, along the lines of the 'Leviathan'
>from CT.  This veseel would also be in the 500-1000 dt range.  The mission
>profile here is long expeditions away from 'civilization', in search of
>new markets and high-value trade items.  This makes the vesel quite
>different from the Far Trader we did in February.
[snip]

	I would strongly suggest that we do this one.  They'd make a better
subject for a _design_ contest, would be fab vehicles for role-playng
purposes, and I'm planning a campaign based around one for next month
<grin>.  However, there are some details that ought to be thrashed out
first, not the least of which is funding; who's gonna pay the bills for
this thing?  Settling this would settle a lot of things, such as the size
questions, right away.

	My take on these "Frontier Traders" (a term which I shamelessly
ripped off from Ross Coburn) is that they'd be in the 300-500 Td range
(numerous smaller and cheaper vessels will cover more ground than one big
expensive one, or will be easier for little trading ops to afford), pack
some respectable firepower, have wilderness refuelling capability (duh),
reasonable armour, good acceleration, and J2 as an absolute minimum.

	I've come up with some financing ideas:

1) a megacorp owns the ship; PC's are employees.  Bad for freedom of play
reasons.

2) a megacorp underwrites expenses, in return for regular trade reports and
the right to inspect logs and flight recorders.  Owners cover purchase
price, maybe financed through the same corp, and get to keep whatever they
make from trade activity.  If they find a good trade route or market niche
they report it to the corp, get a cut, and move on.  Eventually the ship
becomes theirs.  Some impediments to perfect player freedom, but less than
1).

3) normal ship financing rules: however, a hefty down payment would be
required, and interest rates would probably be higher to reflect the
difficulty in repossessing a shp lost in the Wilds.  Speculative trade
would probably be a must here.

4) subsidy from the IISS: as a cost-cutting measure, the IISS will loan
players a ship to go scouting in; they are obliged to scout & report back
periodically, and the sweetener is that they get first crack at new markets.

	Suggestions?

	Oh yes... count me in favour of keeping as much as possible of it
on the list.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:52:06 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Flood of the millenia

>If anyone was waiting for a response from me on anything, I just wanted 
you
>to know I am not blowing you off, but am fighting the damn flood here in 
East
>Grand Forks MN.  I am trying to catch up on the mail when I have time.
>
>Sorry this has nothing to do with Traveller.  ;X

	I hear you. I live in Winnipeg, and all that water is bearing down on us 
quick. Already, every town between Winnipeg and the border has been 
evacuated, friends of mine are on 24 hour evacuation alert - not a fun 
scene.

	I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters 
might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados, 
etc. are out of the question.

	But what kind of disaster can threaten a modern, TL-C world? And as a 
bonus, seems really sfi-fiish, yet realistic. I can't count how many times 
Star Trek has used ion storms, or gravimetric waves, or whatever. What 
among these would really happen? What can I maliciously threaten my players 
with?

	Whats the 57th century equivalent of the flood of the century? And whats 
the Third Imperium version of a sandbag?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:59:48 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: BSCS

- ----------
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: BSCS
> Date: Monday, April 21, 1997 9:53 PM

> "Wall of Battle", anyone? ;->  If you haven't already, take a look at the
> Honor Harrington series by David Weber.  All of them, except _Field of
> Dishonor_, have rip-snorting battle scenes.
> 

And, this was the only one that I didn't completely enjoy.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 01:15:30 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

At 08:52 PM 4/27/97 +0000, maverick wrote:
>I agree. Kind of. And I think I have the answer.
>
><SNIP>
>	G - Military Garrison
>	M - Non-Imperial Military Garrison
><snip>
>
>And so on and so on ......
>
>My interest is in types G and M. Could it be that both types of garrisons
were in the confines of Imperial space. Could it be that while some Planets
had their own Military forces, that other relied on Imperial Forces for
protection. And since Marine garrisons tend to be on Naval Installations, I
would have to assume that "G - Military Garrison" is an Imperial Army Garrison.
>
>Steven E. Brengard
>maverick@castlegate.net
>
>
><snip>
>
Good questions. The answer lies in what the Imperial Policy is regarding the
use of the 'Army'.

As Doug Berry notes:

"The Army exists to provide the Imperium with the means to
defend its member worlds, and to conquer hostile worlds during times of war.
The term "Imperial Army" refers to the command and support structure that
allows designated units to operate as a cohesive force, as well as those
combat elements.

Remember that the modern United States Army has over 50% of its combat
assets in either the National Guard or Reserve.  The NG is under state
control, and generally does not answer to the federal government.  They do,
however, accept training and equipment from the Regular Army, and when
called upon to serve, will generally do so.

This is the situation in the Imperium.  The various worlds maintain military
forces for their own defence, and allow a portion of those units to be under
the control of the Imperium in exchange for cutting edge equipment and
increased training opportunities."

Which I have no basic disagreement with. The question I have is what is the
Imperial Policy about recruitment and stationing. Are units stationed on the
worlds where they are raised? If a given world has internal conflicts that
degenerate into armed disputes, does the Imperium expect the troopers in the
army units to fire on their own families? Or does the Imperium have a policy
that, when a given member world degenerates into armed conflict that the
Imperial Army units raised on that world will sit quietly in garrison while
the Marines blast cousin Clem and Uncle Ralph into ash? Or does the Imperium
simply raise troops on one world, ship them off to another and so that local
conflicts do not boil over into the Imperial Army?

I agree that to hold ground, you need the classic grunt, either with spear
and shield or ABD and PGMP. I wonder if the Imperium really considers
holding any given mud ball that important. As long as you can refuel and
jump on; why should any world be occupied? As many on this list ask back
when Independence Day came out, why would anyone by pass the Gas Giants and
the asteriod belt to fight over one planet? Why does the Imperium need to
'occupy' any given world if it has access to the rest of that star's
planetary system?

Garry

 

  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:12:50 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

> > >> TL-13 Holographic displays with tactile feedback, kinda a 3d touch
screen,
> > >> no need for VR gloves and HUD's.
> > 
> > How does the holodisplays with tactile feedback work? Some kind of
focussed
> > nervestimulations on the fingers or what? Perhaps a helmet that
stimulate
> > the brain to feel as if you touched stuff (that would be a bit far out
I
> > think).
> > 
> Some tactical feedback would simply imitate whether an object was rough
> or smooth, perhaps using some sort of focused magnetic field. This same
> magnetic field could give the feel of resistance to simulate button
> pushing. How this would translate to a tactical readout could be limited
> only by imagination.

	Use optical matter, by TL-13 this should be a mature technology.  Optical
matter is a large number of very small balls, that can be formed into
solids
when two or more wide beam lasers intersect in a volume of space.  I read 
something about this a few years back.  Think of it as being a solid
hologram.
There are of course problems when the user attempts to interact with the
optical matter, when the beam is interrupted.  However TL-13 is really all 
handwaving anyhow.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:23:55 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Crimson class hull, and a question about HULLMAKER.XLS

> Anybody else managed to get the hullmaker spreadsheet to work?  It sounds
> quite nifty...
> 
> Steve Charlton
> 

	I didn't know that there was one.  However, I've been working on a 
program to design entire starships (The FFS way), and the hull design 
section is finished.  If you want, I could clean it up as a stand-alone
and upload it to a web page for others.

	Please be warned that my turnaround time on email right now is 
rather long.  I've been working late a great deal and also have a 
four month old daughter to take care of :)


Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:52:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

At 09:55 pm 04/28/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:50:05 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> >> It will only work for fission powerplants, however.  Fusion operates on
>> >> a different principle.
>> 
>> 	Nope, nuclear dampers work on fusion reactions as well. Otherwise they'd
>> be completely worthless, as nobody *uses* fission warhead at higher
>> TLs--it's all fusion. Even now, the main reason our big'uns use fission is
>> solely as a detonator for the fusion warhead...
>
>Hmmm... I was lead to believe that nuclear dampers operate by either
>weakening or reinforcing the nuclear bonds within the fissile
>materials (by increasing or decreasing the number of neutrons released
>so that the textbook "chain reaction" necessary to create the
>explosion cannot take place).
>
>How would this effect be used to prevent a fusion reaction, which I
>believe relies on high pressure/heat?  Are the release of neutrons
>essential to a fusion reaction?

	Fusion reactions don't care about high pressure or heat, per se. That's
just the only way we know* of overcoming the strong nuclear force enough to
force two hydrogen nuclei (for example) to "stick" together. From the MT
Referee's Manual, nuclear dampers "project a series of nodes and anti-nodes
where the strong nuclear force is enhanced or degraded, rendering nuclear
warheads ineffective."

	Now, nowhere in there does it say that it works only on pre-TL8 warheads.
And advanced warheads will be fusion. Even if fission were better (it
ain't, that's why we even now use fusion warheads), the existence of a
defense which only affects fission warheads would simply mean everybody
would use fusion warheads. Since nuclear dampers work on all kinds of
nuclear warheads, they can affect fusion as well as fission. Hence, there
should be SOME effect on fusion power plants.

	Like I and others have speculated, TL12+ fusion plants will probably RELY
on damper technology for proper functioning. You can rule that a plant's
integral dampers, being much closer, pretty much cancel out the effect of
an enemy's attempt to shut down the fusion plant with his own dampers at
long range. I'd rule that at very close range (i.e. boarding range), a
large warship's dampers can probably overpower a small power plant. But who
wants to risk his megaton dreadnaught that close to a cheesy free trader?

(*Neglecting cold fusion, and the jury's still out on that.)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:10:19 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Asteroids (mostly)

There were a couple of recent posts about how dispersed an asteroid belt 
is.

I am planning on running a campaign based on relativly-lo tech asteroid 
mining (TL8-9 with some imported TL11-12 equipment), and I'd like one of 
the more astromomically-qualified people on the list to tell me

	(a) how many 100m wide and up asteroids there would be in a 
"average" asteroid belt,
	(b) how long would it take to get from one to another using 2g, 
1g and 0.1 g maneuver drives,
	(c) what the breakdown would be between ice, rock and metallic 
asteroids,
	and (d) how would the Imperium feel about "peaceful nuclear 
devices" eg a baby nuke designed to crack asteroids into nice manageable 
chunks.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:08:19 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Milleau 0

Having recently read the Milleau 0 book, I agree with the recent posts about the dark 
history of the early Imperium. I agree that Cleon was not the nice guy that Imperial 
history painted, and a lot of evil deeds were done by the Imperium, especially in the 
desperate early days of empire. But ...

There is no greater evil than leaving the galaxy in a Long Night of reavers, 
starvation and despair. If ending the Long Night takes playing hardball 
politics on unsuspecting worlds and evils up to and including the nuking of 
defenseless cities, then I believe that men of honour within the Imperium would 
have knowingly done it, and rightly so.

Never the less, there are great adventure possibilities in the reaction to the 
wrongs done in the early days of the Imperium once news of exactly how the 
Imperium goes about expanding leaks out. IMO one of the Imperial successors 
(probably whats-his-name who replaced Cleon II) would have made an equivalent 
of Krushchev's Secret Speech, and ended the "ruthless" early phase of Imperial 
expansion, and begun the later policy of non-interference with candidate worlds, 
even if they are messy, balkanized places with no single authority with whom the 
Imperium can deal (personally, I think xenophobic locals are a minimal risk 
to the Pax Imperia ... I mean, how much of a threat to the Imperium is even 
a TL11 planet anyway ? Just declare ir a Red Zone, station enough of a naval 
force in system to keep an eye on them, and blow the hell out of their naval 
yards with a battlewagon or three if they start raiding other worlds).

The Imperium did what it did to guarantee peace between the stars, and to 
end the Reaver states. LSP may not be nice to a poor, vulnerable world, but 
the iron rule a pirate with a hold full of Second Empire nuclear missiles is 
a part of the history of too many worlds.

The bottom line is trade follows peace, and trade makes you happy and rich.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:02:35 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in Imperium

...<snip!>
>That's a pity. If you want, I can send it to you again (and to 
>anyone else who wants a copy).
>...
>Nick Law
>nicklaw@cix.co.uk
>

Nick, I'd certainly like a copy!  Is this the old FASA game to which I
referred in an earlier post or is this an altogether different rule set?

Tx!

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:16:23 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Flood of the millenia

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 
>         I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters
> might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados,
> etc. are out of the question.
> 

How about earthquakes, volcanoes, solar flares, 1500mph hurricanes,
plagues or predatory swarms (like army ants but much worse)?
Just my demented mind at work.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:41:10 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Sports in Imperium

 On the whole Sports in the Imperium question:

  First of all, some sports just never go out of style. Some of your basic 
track and field events have been engaged in for millenia, and aren't about 
to go out of style any time soon. So the marathon, and the 100m dash will 
continue.

  But thats not very much fun.

  Back here on earth, I'm a pretty big fan of auto racing. And while the 
technology may certainly change, I think the idea of sapient beings 
piloting very fast vehivles either through the air, ground or space will 
still be alive and well in Third Imperium.

	I can see two types of racing in the year 0. First of all would be the 
grand, Paris-Dakar rally type of race. Take your stock scout/courier, and 
the first one to Vland from Sylea wint the race. Secondly, would be 
smaller, shorter time scale track races, either on the ground, air or in 
space.

	How about the Sylea 500, where specially-built grav-cars/ air rafts are 
raced 500 times around Sylea itself.

	I think this would give the hi-tech flavour people were looking for. And 
don't forget stock car racing, where the BMWAG 4502csg kicks ass!

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:46:39 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Flood of the millenia

>K.C. Komosky wrote:
>>
>>         I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century 
disasters
>> might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados,
>> etc. are out of the question.
>>
>
>How about earthquakes, volcanoes, solar flares, 1500mph hurricanes,
>plagues or predatory swarms (like army ants but much worse)?
>Just my demented mind at work.

	Speaking as a person who's getting his BSc in Environmental Geology next 
month, I'm guessing that with gravitic technology volcano and earthquake 
prediction and control should be very easy to acheive.

	1500mph hurricanes? In worlds with weather control? And plagues or 
predatory swarms are certainly very vicious and nasty, but at least to me 
seem like different types of natural disasters than whatI was looking for.

	Solar flares - now we might be on to something. But I'm a geologist, not 
an astronomer. Would anyone out there like to comment on just how dangerous 
a solar flare might be? Or is my impressions about solar flares just built 
on bad sci-fi?

	And what about any kinds of space storms, or what-not? Any truth to that?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:57:36 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Zhodani Culture (was: Gays in the Imperium)

I'm taking the liberty or renaming this thread... we're pretty much through
with the gays in the Imperium topic by now, Deo volente.  Hopefully this
one will prove a bit less sensitive and of a lot more Traveller interest.

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>What I was thinking on was that since they can tell how you *really*
>feel about things, they are less likely to interfere with the
>"happiness" of *anyone* as long as that happiness falls within the
>"norms".

Yeah, that part makes sense to me just fine.  I also find it totally
credible that a society can have different, even radically different, norms
for different classes or sections of the society -- including 'norms of
happiness'.

>Most of the class distinctions the Zhodani have are "earned" (or at
>least thought to be). But I can't see how you "earn" the right to love
>a particular gender rather than another.
>
>*If* they feel homosexuality is wrong, they'll repress it.
>
>If they feel that it is ok, then there's not much point in denyingh it
>to the proles. The one class difference I can think of would be that
>they'd be more likely to insist that *non*-proles have kids so as to
>pass on their superior genes. The higher your class, the more insistent
>they'd get. If you are a prole, it's no great loss if you don't pass
>them on. :-)

OTOH -- I'm playing the devil's advocate here, Leonard; please don't take
this as (pure) quibbling -- I've understood the elites of Zhodani society
to be hereditary aristocrats, only some of whom are psionic.  The
determining factor in whether one is a noble is geneological descent, and
in some rare cases, elevation to the 'peerage' for merit (also requiring
psionic ability, IIRC?).  This being the case, depending on how Zhodani
inheritance customs work, there might be some pressure to limit the number
of children nobles have, so as to stem the progressive fragmentation of
estates and power.  Whereas proles should breed in quantity, so as to 1)
provide more underlings for their betters, and 2) produce by random
combination of genes/mutation/whatever new psionically-gifted individuals
to enlarge the intendant caste.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1269
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 29 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1270



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Next THUDDD ship class
April THUDDD results available on the web
Re: Precious materials
Re: The 3-Task System
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: April THUDDD Results
Re: All tech levels
Re: Some technical questions
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: "Deep Space" detection
re: Flood of the Millennium
TNE-RCES list
Re: Asteroids (mostly)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:00:26 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5428.642FA3C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


[snip]

Which I have no basic disagreement with. The question I have is what is =
the
Imperial Policy about recruitment and stationing. Are units stationed on =
the
worlds where they are raised? If a given world has internal conflicts =
that
degenerate into armed disputes, does the Imperium expect the troopers in =
the
army units to fire on their own families? Or does the Imperium have a =
policy
that, when a given member world degenerates into armed conflict that the
Imperial Army units raised on that world will sit quietly in garrison =
while
the Marines blast cousin Clem and Uncle Ralph into ash? Or does the =
Imperium
simply raise troops on one world, ship them off to another and so that =
local
conflicts do not boil over into the Imperial Army?

I seem to recall that in one incarnation of Traveller (MT or T2), forces =
were divided into planetary, subsector, and sector troops.  I liked =
that, as it reflected the political makeup of the Imperium (i.e. local, =
sector and Imperial Nobles - each with increasing responsibility and =
authority.) The following represents _my_ interpretation of the =
Imperium, hope it works with yours!  :)=20

Planetary troopies are the local grunts, training is consistant with the =
world they are recruited from, perhaps with some briefings and/or =
training exercises on integrating with SubSector troops.  The elite of =
these troops might see interplanetary service, garrisoning the other =
planets, moons, asteroids, weapons platforms and navigation beacons used =
by SysDef. In my campaign, planetary troops also serve as a form of =
replacement pool for the SubSector troops. Each unit has a 'brother' or =
'sister' unit that it's training is supposed to shadow.  In the event of =
a major conflict, replacements would be immediately available.  (I never =
said they are _good_ troops)

Subsector troops are used at the discretion of the Imperial Barons and =
Dukes.  These troops would be used as Internal Security troops, Counter =
Insurgency and Strike missions and also used to beef up defenses on =
planets with low or untrustworthy (ie. captive government) populations.  =
I think these form the bulk of Imperial military forces, as the local =
command and control appears to form at the subsector level.  If a =
conflict were to embroil a soldiers home world, I can see provisions for =
removing a trooper from certain positions (more from a security point of =
view than any consideration to the individual soldier), but I also see =
where that soldiers intimate knowledge of the planet and/or situation =
would be invaluble.

Sector troops would actually be the Headquarters Units.  These are the =
officers and NCOs that are expected to drop into place in the event of a =
major mobilization.  Theoretically, this enables troops from two planets =
that may be having, um..., intense relations to fight side by side.  The =
equipment supplied by the Sector command and control elements would =
allow troops with "non-standard" gear to operate together.  While in a =
perfect world, these would be extremely competent and experienced =
troops, I tend to see this as the haven of the Imperial nobility.


I agree that to hold ground, you need the classic grunt, either with =
spear
and shield or ABD and PGMP. I wonder if the Imperium really considers
holding any given mud ball that important. As long as you can refuel and
jump on; why should any world be occupied? As many on this list ask back
when Independence Day came out, why would anyone by pass the Gas Giants =
and
the asteriod belt to fight over one planet? Why does the Imperium need =
to
'occupy' any given world if it has access to the rest of that star's
planetary system?

I would tend to see it more as a economic and political reason.  For =
example, Uncle Fred and his buddies decide that Baron Morley's taxes and =
his insistance on his rights of "droit du siegnor" are no longer =
tolerable.  A sufficient number of acquaintences agree and they go on =
strike.  Baron Morley responds with what he sees as reasonable =
restraint, and after the survivors stop running, they pull out the =
hunting rifles.  [we will draw a curtain over the progression of this =
insurgency until...] the starport, no longer able to guarentee the =
safety of ships and shuttles or crews, and is classified as Amber or =
even Red.

Now, at this point, off-world commerce slows and then stops.  The =
orbital widget factory, not able to get the raw materials, or workers, =
from the planet, fails to provide the widgets required to build the =
framitz regulators in a factory one jump coreward.  A Corporation begins =
to scream for intervention 'to protect it's workers' (ie. it's =
stockholders).   Insurence companies will be notified of the change in =
status of the starport and will begin jacking up rates for starships =
flying that route.  Shipping lines will drop the port as unprofitable or =
jack up their cargo rates to reflect the increase in costs, then again =
to reflect the increase in _risk_.  Captains of Shipping will begin to =
contact their representatives to resolve the conflict and restore the =
status quo.

Baron Morely's income - dependent on the planetary GNP and specific =
industries - suddenly takes a nose dive.  Conversations with certain =
influential subsector and sector nobles are certain to follow.  In order =
to meet his obligations, both personal and public, he will be looking to =
_his_ superior and asking for help.

Duke Ellington, Baron Morely's liege finds he is obliged to make payment =
from the subsector purse to cover expenses that Baron Morely is no =
longer able to sustain...more attention. =20

On the other side, I'm sure that there are a number of sympathetic =
nobles (possibly with ulterior motives?) and other factions that will =
try and either 1) intervene on the side of the insurgents or 2) supress =
any Imperial reaction while the conflict resolves itself.  In any case, =
at some point the insurgency either resolves itself, or the Imperium =
steps in to get commerce open.
=00=00

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:18:29 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:52:30 -0600, you wrote:

> 	Fusion reactions don't care about high pressure or heat, per se. That's
> just the only way we know* of overcoming the strong nuclear force enough to
> force two hydrogen nuclei (for example) to "stick" together. From the MT
> Referee's Manual, nuclear dampers "project a series of nodes and anti-nodes
> where the strong nuclear force is enhanced or degraded, rendering nuclear
> warheads ineffective."

Gotcha.

> 	Now, nowhere in there does it say that it works only on pre-TL8 warheads.
> And advanced warheads will be fusion. Even if fission were better (it
> ain't, that's why we even now use fusion warheads), the existence of a
> defense which only affects fission warheads would simply mean everybody
> would use fusion warheads. Since nuclear dampers work on all kinds of
> nuclear warheads, they can affect fusion as well as fission. Hence, there
> should be SOME effect on fusion power plants.

Hmmm... OK.  Since you only quoted rules to state that nuclear dampers
can affect fusion reactions, I'll assume that some handwaving is
necessary here.  I was just wondering if a node/anti-node array could
have any affect on a fusion reaction as we know it today.

BTW, warheads that rely on fission explosions to "initiate" a fusion
reaction could be prevented from detonating by specifically foiling
the fission reaction (ie: the fusion reaction would never need to be
*directly* affected).

> 	Like I and others have speculated, TL12+ fusion plants will probably RELY
> on damper technology for proper functioning. You can rule that a plant's
> integral dampers, being much closer, pretty much cancel out the effect of
> an enemy's attempt to shut down the fusion plant with his own dampers at
> long range. I'd rule that at very close range (i.e. boarding range), a
> large warship's dampers can probably overpower a small power plant. But who
> wants to risk his megaton dreadnaught that close to a cheesy free trader?

Cheesy Free Traders, "maybe".  But what about Free Cheese Graters? :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:26:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Next THUDDD ship class

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 	Unless, of course, we were to come up with requirements for the
> Imperial Yacht Match Racing Association Ardunia's Cup-class racing yacht.
> However, given that we'd be optimizing for speed and nothing else, I don't
> think that the design systems provide fine enough resolution for us to
> actually compete; we'd probably all wind up with more or less identical
> designs.
 I don't think QSDS/SSDS has rules for this(Yet another reason why I still
use FF&S :), but why not make solar sail racing yachts? *that* would be a
great little touch to have your players run into a ragatta of solar racing
yachts(And so very imperical). If you were careful with it, they really
woulden't be that expensive(And with M:0, you'd have tons of new
billionares with nothing to do)

bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: April THUDDD results available on the web

Results of the April THUDDD competition are now available via the THUDDD
homepage at:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Viewing results on the web makes it a bit easier to look up individual
designs and so forth.  Enjoy!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:18:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Precious materials

>Relative to nuclear transformation, sure.  Chemically, it's still
>quite high (though perfectly feasible, as you say).
>
One problem is that energy is almost free in Traveller. I'd say that
nuclear transformation is feasible in Traveller were it not for the fact
that transport costs are also incredibly low. Why build a large and costly
nuclear transformation facility with dampers to remove the unwanted
isotopes when some trader captain will haul the raw ore for next to
nothing?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:19:26 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The 3-Task System

> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:01:09 +0200
> From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
> Subject: Re: The 3-Task System
> 
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> 
> >>From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
> >>The 3-Task System: An alternative Task and Combat System for T4
> >>One and only requisiste: Remember the multiples of three:
> >>3,6,9,12,15,18,21
> >>
> >>Tasks:
> >>        2D6+Skill+(Attribute/3) <= (Difficulty)
> >>        (round fractions down)
> >>        Maximum allowed DM: +10
> 
> >Why do you have a Maximum allowed DM at all ?
> 
>         First, is the old MT idea, adjusted to account for the extra DMs
> obtained when dividing Att/3 instead of Att/5. Second, makes the maximum
> modified throw equal 12+10=22, i.e. just slightly over Impossible (21+)

What I meant is "What is your justification for assuming that a
difference in skill or attribute will stop making a difference just
because the levels involved are very high ?"

As an example consider the case of 2 Imperially famous experts on Jump
Field Physics who are attempting to develop a Grand Unified Theory of
Jumpspace (we will say that this is an Impossible test of Physics &
Int).  Both scientists have Physics - 7 but the first scientist is Int 9
and the second scientist is Int 15.  Using a Max DM of +10 both these
people will have an equal chance of success & this seems very
unrealistic to me.  If you drop the +10 Max DM the second scientist will
have a +12 DM (skill 7 + (Int 15/3)) and will have a better chance of
success which seems much more realistic.

Your second point that by limiting the maximum DM to +10 you reduce the
chance of success on Impossible tasks to a believeably low chance is a
good one but this problem could be solved without causing a
believability gap by simply introducing Nearly Impossible at 21+ &
Impossible tasks at 24+.

I don't mean to sound too harsh as you are just doing what MegaTraveeler
always did but a Max Dm has always seemed unrealistic & thats why I
suggest you remove it.

> >>        Difficulty      Code
> >>        ----------------------
> >>        Easy            6+
> >>        Average         9+
> >>        Difficult       12+
> >>        Formidable      15+
> >>        Staggering      18+
> >>        Impossible      21+
> >>        ----------------------
> >>
> >How about Nearly Impossible 21+ and Impossible 24+  If you leave in the
> >maximum +10 DM then no charecter will ever be able to complete an
> >_Impossible_ task.  The grammarian part of me has always thought that
> >Impossible tasks should be _impossible_.
> 
>         I agree. But then, you will never use Impossible in actual play, so
> drop the name, and drop the "Nearly" also.
[snip]

> >>Combat System:
> >>        Use the T4 difficulty levels and weapon DMs for the to hit tasks.
> >>        For assessing damage, refer to the result of the task
> >>        Fumble: Implement a 2D mishap.
> >>        Spectacular Failure: Failed
> >>        Failure: Failed
> >>        Marginal Success: Only 1D damage from the attack is taken.
> >>        Success: Normal T4 rules. Maximum 3D damage.
> >>        Spectacular Success: No maximum damage, all the damage of the
> >>weapon is taken.
> 
> >Well then how is Spectacular Success any better than a regular Success
> >if you are using a weapon that only does 1 to 3 dice of dammage anyway
> >?  Otherwise this is good.
> 
>         I know, there's no difference for 1 to 3 D damage weapons. Why
> should there be? After all, these are "low damage weapons", you are >not usually able to do a lot of damage with them.. if you want to, then >do called shots.

There should be a difference because (without getting too technical or
gearheadish) a 1d6 weapon does not blow as big a hole in someone as a
3d6 weapon does.  Maybe on a spectacular success you could add +1d6 to
dammage for 1 to 3 D dammage weapons.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:26:29 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

>So, any ideas on this? I'd like to have some input on more
>"conventional" attractions (rides, rollercoasters and so on).
>Obviously you could do a lot with VR and simulators, but this goes
>against some of the ideas behind amusement parks, IMHO.
>The attractions should be enjoyed by large groups of people at the
>same time, instead of creating artificial cocoons in which everyone
>plays alone. This should be expecially true in Vilani culture, I
>think, and would be consistent with the rest of Traveller universe,
>where VR seems to be largely downplayed.

You could just as well play VR with fellow players or even huge gruops
where all inhabitants of the VR universe are real humans/aliens but I
agree, it goes against the general Traveller feel to empasize heavily on VR
etc. Maybe when VR will be cheap and easy to do it will be considered cheap
to citizens of the Imperium. VR might be a short fad for TL 8-10 worlds and
then fade away. Or maybe Imperial culture look at it as a kind of
electronic drug and its users are looked upon as dopeheads today. This
could make for interesting plots where nobles hooked on a particular VR
thing sneak away to low TL planets to get a "fix" and then get blackmailed
by the VR arcade owners.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:44:34 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:15:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
> 
>   Wasn't there an adventure for TNE published in Challenge that was set in
> an amusement park?  Or was it in Traveller Chronicle? 

Challenge #76 pg 14-23 - "Playland" by our own Harold D Hale.

>   Anyway, as I recall the adventure did include robots, including a clear
> rip-off of Bugs Bunny(tm) and other cartoon characters, unnamed for
> copyright reasons.  Might have some interesting ideas along the lines > you were considering.

It also had a good treatment of "The Hunter" the enemy of "The Rabbit". 
"The Hunter" was short, not too bright & spoke with a slight speech
impediment...

It was a good adventure & I recommend it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: April THUDDD Results

  Well, yet another close showing by Generica Starships - guess QSDS is
not so bad after all.  In fact, I'd be guessing the Imperial Navy will be
buying the Type 45212, since it came closest to the design criteria. ;-)

  Again, a most useful exercise, since the contest helped me a great deal
in testing my own thoughts about ship design.  I still think a second
phase with redesign of the top vote getters would result in even better
final designs (though this might reduce some of the idiosyncracy inherent
in doing designs w/o input from others).

  As for the next design competition, I'd strongly prefer the exploritory
vessal over the yacht.  I'd also prefer a larger design size, like 2,000
to 3,000 tons - Leviathan size.  The ships we've been working on so far
have been smaller - it would be nice to have a change.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:03:03 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: All tech levels

>But it can't be local tech level in all cases, since you have worlds with
>very low populations and high tech levels. It takes quite a few people to
>run an industrial society. I'd imagine that it would take even more to
>run a high-tech society, though I admit that it's debatable. However, my
>suggestion for interpreting TLs is that they represent the level that a
>majority of the people on the planet enjoy. Thus when you have a Class A
>starport on a medium-tech planet it means that TL 10+ stuff is available
>(at least at the starport), but that most people don't use it. And when
>you have a low-population planet with a high technology, it means that
>they make enough money to buy the stuff they use from off-world (most
>common example would be a mining outpost).
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk

You don't have to produce everything. A pop 3 TL-13 planet might be
producing space-suit-helmet-visor-cleaning kits at TL 13 and importing
everything else. That is the reason for the +1 on TL roll for low pops. But
I'd say that your definition of TL works out the same as "the highest TL
locally produced" as canon states.

An important consideration for GMs regarding low TL planets is that they
probably do know A LOT about high tech stuff in the general sense. They
just cannot afford to import it or do not need it. It is very easy to fall
into the TL 3 planet where everybody believs in witchcraft and they haven't
realised the importance of germs et c.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:33:05 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Some technical questions

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:
[on nuclear dampers, big bit snipped]
> 
> 	Now, nowhere in there does it say that it works only on pre-TL8 warheads.
> And advanced warheads will be fusion. Even if fission were better (it
> ain't, that's why we even now use fusion warheads), the existence of a
> defense which only affects fission warheads would simply mean everybody
> would use fusion warheads. Since nuclear dampers work on all kinds of
> nuclear warheads, they can affect fusion as well as fission. Hence, there
> should be SOME effect on fusion power plants.
> 

I have always thought that nuclear dampers affect only fission. This is
because the material I have (MT "basic" books, TNE, FFS) suggests that
dampers are only used as defenses against missiles, and not as weapons
attacking reactors of other ships. Reason how can they operate on missiles
(which obviously use fusion) and not on reactors is this : the fusion
warheads we use today start the fusion by igniting a small fission bomb.
That is the only way today to start fusion reaction without magnetic
chambers and such stuff (I think). On the other hand, fusion power plants
use some other method than dampers to contain the plasma (superconductin
coils, repulsor fields, wave your hands as much as you like) so they are
not affected by dampers. 

All this is written IMHO.

Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

Star Trek: Deep Space 90210

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 01:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:10:19 -0700
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
> 
> I am planning on running a campaign based on relativly-lo tech asteroid 
> mining (TL8-9 with some imported TL11-12 equipment), and I'd like one of 
> the more astromomically-qualified people on the list to tell me
> 
> 	(a) how many 100m wide and up asteroids there would be in a 
> "average" asteroid belt,

Tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands.

> 	(b) how long would it take to get from one to another using 2g, 
> 1g and 0.1 g maneuver drives,

Figure a typical separation between nearest-neighbor 100m rocks of, oh,
say it's 1000 km = 1,000,000 m.  Given 1 g = 10 m/s^2, and a trip time
with constant acceleration, flipover at midpoint, and constant
deceleration of 'a' given by

  t = 2 * sqrt(d/a), we may derive:

t(2g)  =  447 s =~  7.5 minutes
t(1g)  =  632 s =~ 10.5 minutes
t(.1g) = 2000 s =~ 33.3 minutes

...which just goes to show you how close together things get under
constant thrust of any significant magnitude.

> 	(c) what the breakdown would be between ice, rock and metallic 
> asteroids,

Depends on a lot, most notably (for the ice part) on distance from and
type of the star(s) in the system.  In Sol system, about 50% are rocky,
25% mixed rock and metal, and 25% almost pure metal.  There are no icey
objects in the belt proper; you need to go out beyond Jupiter to find
those.  This is all from memory; I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm
far off the mark. :)

> 	and (d) how would the Imperium feel about "peaceful nuclear 
> devices" eg a baby nuke designed to crack asteroids into nice manageable 
> chunks.

I've done a lot of thinking on this; baby nukes are just too useful in
asteroid mining to be outlawed entirely, but obviously you'd want to keep
them under *very* tight control.  Here are the guidelines I came up with:

(1) Mining nukes are purchased directly from a branch of the Imperial
    government; only licensed, chartered mining firms may do so.

(2) Each mining nuke is a laser-triggered fusion bomb; there's no
    fissionable material involved.

(3) Each nuke is a completely sealed system; a self-destruct mechanism
    will melt the internals of the bomb to harmless slag if any attempt
    is made to open or tamper with the device.

(4) The device has an internal clock; detonation can only occur within
    N months of sale.  N is usually 3 to 6, though longer periods
    sometimes are permitted.

(5) The bomb has a minimum countdown period to detonation of two hours.
    During this time it will scream radio warnings of its impending
    detonation over a broadband internal transmitter; these will be heard
    by any radio receiver within about 5,000 km, barring shielding.

(6) The bomb will refuse to detonate in a g-field greater than 0.01 gee,
    or in an atmosphere thicker than 0.01 bar.  Experiencing either of
    these at *any point* in the countdown will abort the countdown.

(7) The bomb will listen for either of two coded override signals.
    One is given to the purchaser and will cancel a pending detonation.
    One is retained by Imperial authorities and will cause the device to
    do the safe self-destruct described above.

(8) Just before detonation, the bomb must receive a final 'go' signal
    by radio to confirm detonation.  This helps foil attempts to shield
    the signals in (5) and (7).

Together, these prevent most uses of mining bombs for terrorist purposes.
Comments, anyone?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:12:12 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

>Sorry, but if you are talking km-sized or bigger bodies at a range of a
>few (1-5?) light seconds, forget it. A normal ship's radar *will* pick
>them up. If it couldn't, it couldn't detect ships at the more normal
>ranges.

 Don't forget that radar tapers of at the inverse of range^4. Ten times the
range requires 10 000 times larger reflective area. You may still be right
of course, just wanted to point that out.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:09:22 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: re: Flood of the Millennium

What sort of disaster could threaten a TL-C + world? 

What about an artificially intelligent computer virus that infects 
starship transponders? 

<Flame retardant suit ON>
<Ablative covering ON>
<Running shoes ON>

Let the flaming commence! 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: TNE-RCES list

 I was wondering if anyone out there could be so kinda as to provide me
with the pertinent information? Thanks :)

bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:26:36 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> I've done a lot of thinking on this; baby nukes are just too useful in
> asteroid mining to be outlawed entirely, but obviously you'd want to keep
> them under *very* tight control.  Here are the guidelines I came up with:

Under each heading I've tried to figure out a way to go around it.

> (1) Mining nukes are purchased directly from a branch of the Imperial
>     government; only licensed, chartered mining firms may do so.

Well, they can be stolen...

> (2) Each mining nuke is a laser-triggered fusion bomb; there's no
>     fissionable material involved.
>
> (3) Each nuke is a completely sealed system; a self-destruct mechanism
>     will melt the internals of the bomb to harmless slag if any attempt
>     is made to open or tamper with the device.

Means it must be easy to use.

> (4) The device has an internal clock; detonation can only occur within
>     N months of sale.  N is usually 3 to 6, though longer periods
>     sometimes are permitted.

It has to be stolen close to the use time.

> (5) The bomb has a minimum countdown period to detonation of two hours.
>     During this time it will scream radio warnings of its impending
>     detonation over a broadband internal transmitter; these will be heard
>     by any radio receiver within about 5,000 km, barring shielding.

Shielding (see 8).

> (6) The bomb will refuse to detonate in a g-field greater than 0.01 gee,
>     or in an atmosphere thicker than 0.01 bar.  Experiencing either of
>     these at *any point* in the countdown will abort the countdown.

Pressurechamber + antigrav unit, it would be expensive,  but it would
probably work.

> (7) The bomb will listen for either of two coded override signals.
>     One is given to the purchaser and will cancel a pending detonation.
>     One is retained by Imperial authorities and will cause the device to
>     do the safe self-destruct described above.

Shielding (see 8).

> (8) Just before detonation, the bomb must receive a final 'go' signal
>     by radio to confirm detonation.  This helps foil attempts to shield
>     the signals in (5) and (7).

A small timed radio transmitter placed within the shielding.

> Together, these prevent most uses of mining bombs for terrorist purposes.
> Comments, anyone?

I think terrorists could probably use it, but they would have to be
pretty good at what they do.

On other problem with (8), if the legal owner is going to blow an
asteroid with very high metal content that metal might shield the bomb
from the signal.

 / Per

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1270
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 29 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1271



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Zhodani culture
Imperial Army?
Re: Computer Tech
Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Computer Tech
Re: Ship Combat
Re: Asteroids (mostly) 
re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: TNE-RCES list
Re: Sten Guns
Re: Re: Metator Update
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: All tech levels
Re: Imperial recruitment practices
Re: All tech levels
Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1269
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:31:35 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Zhodani culture

According to Alien Module 4, the reason for the Intendant class being 
such an integral part of Zhodani culture is that psionics is not 
obviously heritable.  This rather puts paid to the "reproductive 
duty" elements of Zhodani nobility if true, although it seems 
peculiar if there's *no* link, especially given the supposed 
heritability of "psychic" powers in the real world.  (Forgive me the 
sceptical "supposed".)

Hereditary nobles are not significantly more psionic than average, 
although all are trained to use psionics.  The Intendants are the 
psychic muscle, kept at their labours by the prospect of being able 
to become noble through the Psionic Games.

Nick

Dr. N.S. Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, Univ. of Sheffield, U.K.
email N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk, tel. +44 (0)114 222 2673

Liberal elitist socialist * Cat-lover * Guitarist * Sardonic humourist

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:37:45 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Imperial Army?

CT's Spinward Marches Campaign includes much description of the Duke 
of Regina's Own Huscarles, a lift cavalry regiment.  It explicitly 
states that it is an Imperial-sanctioned, non-Imperial unit raised on 
Regina and with a cadre of seconded Imperial marines.  On the 
outbreak of the 4FW (or was it the 5FW?) they were "imperialised" 
i.e. taken into official Imperial service.

This is not portrayed as the only way in which the Imperium raises 
ground troops, but it seems to be *a* way.  I would certainly expect 
the bulk of Imperial troop strength to be marines.

Perhaps we can divide them into Fleet, Garrison and Line Marines, and 
admit that Jerry Pournelle influenced CT quite a lot...

Nick

Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:59:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

"Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> wrote:

>>>How does the holodisplays with tactile feedback work? Some kind of
>>>focussed nerve stimulations on the fingers or what? Perhaps a helmet 
>>>that stimulate the brain to feel as if you touched stuff (that would 
>>>be a bit far out I think).
>>> 
>>Some tactical feedback would simply imitate whether an object was rough
>>or smooth, perhaps using some sort of focused magnetic field. This same
>>magnetic field could give the feel of resistance to simulate button
>>pushing. How this would translate to a tactical readout could be limited
>>only by imagination.
 
>       Use optical matter, by TL-13 this should be a mature technology.  
>Optical matter is a large number of very small balls, that can be formed 
>into solids when two or more wide beam lasers intersect in a volume of 
>space.  

>I read something about this a few years back.  Think of it as being a 
>solid hologram.  There are of course problems when the user attempts to 
>interact with the optical matter, when the beam is interrupted.  However 
>TL-13 is really all handwaving anyhow.

Could you explain more about optical matter?  is this some kind of
material where the lasers temporarily weld the beads together and then
unweld them in some way to change the image? 

As for TL 13 Holodynamic controls, how about metallic (or plastic) dust
and carefully controlled gravitic fields?  The fields would shape the dust
or beads into a variety of shapes, levers, buttons... 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:07:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

>Question: are starports/spaceports Imperial property, with their own
>laws and law enforcers?  I believe this is true, but I thought I'd ask
>anyways.

Yes. They have an extraterritoriality fence around it to keep people
wandering in and out without customs checks etc. There's a starport
detailed in one of the earlier Journals that describes them. BTW the fences
are called extrality fence for short.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:10:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

>        Use optical matter, by TL-13 this should be a mature technology.
>Optical
>matter is a large number of very small balls, that can be formed into
>solids
>when two or more wide beam lasers intersect in a volume of space.  I read
>something about this a few years back.  Think of it as being a solid
>hologram.
>There are of course problems when the user attempts to interact with the
>optical matter, when the beam is interrupted.  However TL-13 is really all
>handwaving anyhow.
>
>Eric

Out of curiosity, where actually did you read about those solid holograms?
I've read about such things in Marvel Comics but never elsewhere.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:10:17 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Combat

>I've often wondered if it'd be possible to come up with a "book combat"
>type system (like "Ace of Aces") for Traveller small ship actions. That
>is, each ship has a "book". You start out at one of several pages
>depending on the situation at the start of combat. Each of you chooses
>from one of the manuevers listed as possible on that page, and you both
>go to the resulting page, which gives a view of the now current
>situation, and you keep going like this until you escape, get killed,
>or get a kill.
>
>I know that it's *only* possible for one-on-one battles. And you'd have
>to carry the results of the attacks on a ship data sheet. But it might
>work out ok.

Actually, Ace of Aces works for multiple plane combat quite well; you just
have to use markers in the book for each aircraft you are combatting. It 
gets very slow and complicated the more planes you have, but for 4-6
players (2 to 3 on a side) it's quite playable and fun!

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly) 

Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au> wrote:

>        (a) how many 100m wide and up asteroids there would be in a 
>"average" asteroid belt,

From _The Millenial Project_ by Marshal T. Savage

In our asteroid belt, "there are 10 billion (10,000,000,000) asteroids
larger than 100 m diameter.  99.9% of these are between 100 meters and 25
km in diameter.... Altogether they amount to only 10% the mass of
Ceres."..."The 32 largest asteroids are each more than 200 km in diameter.
"  Also, the total mass of the belt is around 0.3% (ie 1/300th) of the
mass of Earth. 

>        (b) how long would it take to get from one to another using 2g, 
>1g and 0.1 g maneuver drives,

Unknown, but the belt ranges from 300 million km to around 600 million km
from the sun, so we have a hell of a lot of space to play with (I also
believe the belt is around 5-10 million km thick). 

With 10 billion asteroids in the belt we have asteroids an average of
maybe 90,000 km apart (maybe more like 30-40,000 km apart in the densest
sections of the belt.  not too far, but far from close. 

>        (c) what the breakdown would be between ice, rock and metallic 
>asteroids,

No idea

>     and (d) how would the Imperium feel about "peaceful nuclear 
>devices" eg a baby nuke designed to crack asteroids into nice manageable 
>chunks.

I'd imagine that as long as they were clean (ie non-radioactive, low
radiation fusion warheads) and relatively small they would be legal, if
well regulated.  20-50 kilotons would do a good job on most asteroids. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:45:51 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Flood of the Millennium

What about allergies to natural biological compounds that only exhibit
themselves under certain conditions. Infectious bacteria that infest the
largely biological citysized life support recyclers on Vacc worlds. Solar
flares that seem to crop up whenever systems reach TL 16.
Frac c asteroids hurled by TMLers at each other :)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:43:23 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES list

Bri wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone out there could be so kinda as to provide me
>with the pertinent information? Thanks :)

Try something like 

     subscribe TNE-RCES bri@teleport.com

to listproc@tower.clark.net

For help, send the word 'help' to listproc@tower.clark.net

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:48:12 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Sten Guns

>Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:31:13 +0100
>From: catwalk <catwalk@ibm.net>
>Subject: Sten Guns

>Nick Meredith wrote:
>> First of all, crude and unpleasant as it was it was not an improvised
>> weapon. What it was was a cheap weapon - designed to be cheaply
>> manufactured.
>> Secondly,  jamming was not it's major vice. Them major problem woth
>> the weapon was it's tendancy to run away - firing unil the magazine
>> was empty.

>- ---The main problem with the early model Sten Guns my father told me was
>their tendancy to fall apart if dropped,this happened to the Canadians
>at Dieppe.

According to legand there were two kinds of Stens, hot ones and cold ones.
A hot one would fire if you even looked at it and naturally a cold one wouldn't
fire no matter what.

However if the Sten did have a problem it was the lack of a positive safety.
Being a simple slam fire weapon (ie the firing pin was fixed to the bolt and
fired when it closed) if you dropped it, it would fire. I've herd more than
one 2nd WW vet state that the best way to clear a room was to cock a Sten,
open the door, throw the Sten in and wait. Just imagine that in your average
PC party (wandering round armed like refugees from Pancho Villas Space
Army).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:54:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re: Metator Update

In mail you write:

> Seriously, Matt Goodman is paying me good money for some Space 1889
> deckplans, while no one has ever paid a shareware fee for any of my Traveller
> software.  :-(    

Hey, if you wrote them for the PC (and if I could afford to pay for
them...)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:04:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

In mail you write:

> So, any ideas on this? I'd like to have some input on more
> "conventional" attractions (rides, rollercoasters and so on).
> Obviously you could do a lot with VR and simulators, but this goes
> against some of the ideas behind amusement parks, IMHO.

Check out the "Dream Park" books by Niven, Pournelle, and Barnes. There
are two or three, and the first is titled " Dream Park" (in the US
anyway). 

They deal with a not too distant future amusenent oark doing LARPs.
Though mostly *without* robots, but with holograms. Besides the active
players, the big games are shown on the equivalent of closed circuit TV.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:16:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: All tech levels

In mail you write:

>>Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>>Then any world with a starport has to be TL-10 or so. Ain't what happens.
>>>It has to be *local* tech, otherwise the starport type wouldn't
>>>*modify* the TL, it'd set a *minimum*.
>
> A type E class starport is little more than a level area with some landing 
> markings (and maybe the Third Imperium version of a roadside cafe/ 
> T-Stop/Diner/whatever it may be called in your locality.)  The Incas managed 
> that much!

I didn't feel like digging out the books to see if it was a class E or
D port that was that way. Since you've looked it up, I can change that
to "D or better starport". Ok?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:19:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial recruitment practices

In mail you write:

> troops. But Aslans and Vargr represent a not inconsiderable slice of the
> Imperial citizenry. Just because they cater to them is no proof that they'd
> cater to the followers of some obscure religion on a single world. Or to
> temperature-challenged people or bigots or...

I agree that they might want to avoid "bigots". But "thermally
challenged" types are a different matter. If you are going to invade an
iceball, you *want* the guys that think it's only a "bit chilly", and
to invade/garrison Inferno IX, you want the folks who think 130 in the
shade is a cool day.

After all, everything else being equal, you'll have about as many hot
world troops as there are hot worlds encountered, and ditto for cold
world troops.

Sure, high tech lets you get around some of these problems to some
extent. But if you had to take siberia in the winter, which troops
would you prefer? Eskimos? Or Arabs? (assuming that they are both
equally good fighters)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 04:12:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: All tech levels

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>>>In MegaTraveller, the stated tech levels represented achievement tech 
> levels:
>>>the highest technology available on that world.  It may be imported, and
>>>common tech might well be several levels below.
>> 
>>Then any world with a starport has to be TL-10 or so. Ain't what happens.
>>It has to be *local* tech, otherwise the starport type wouldn't
>>*modify* the TL, it'd set a *minimum*.
>
> But it can't be local tech level in all cases, since you have worlds with
> very low populations and high tech levels. It takes quite a few people to
> run an industrial society. I'd imagine that it would take even more to
> run a high-tech society, though I admit that it's debatable.

Low Pop worlds aren't self sufficiemt or anything else. With the
possible exception of some oddball aliens, I'd say anything under pop 5
(10k) is not "native", but some sort of base. As such the tech level is
that of the "parent" culture, modified downwards by what the locals
commonly *use*.

> However, my
> suggestion for interpreting TLs is that they represent the level that a
> majority of the people on the planet enjoy. Thus when you have a Class A
> starport on a medium-tech planet it means that TL 10+ stuff is available
> (at least at the starport), but that most people don't use it. And when
> you have a low-population planet with a high technology, it means that
> they make enough money to buy the stuff they use from off-world (most
> common example would be a mining outpost).

Sounds reasonable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:36:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

I've been doing some thinking now that we have "realistic" figures for
a hypothetical drive that pushes on large masses. I'm going to call it
the "pusher drive" from here on.

The time to get to 100 diameters is not excessive (31 hours for a 100
ton *mass* ship, with a 100 MW powerplant).

Planet killer missiles aren't practical. You can't get more energy out
than you put in.

It gives a *reason* for g-comp to be developed. Because the
acceleration is continuously varying, g-comp, even small amounts helps
passenger comfort a *lot*.

And an unexpected bonus. The pusher drive is much more efficient if
what is being pushed on is *much* more massive than the vessel using
the drive. (for equal masses, you lose 50% of your acceleration, and it
*rapidly* gets worse). But this also means that *large* ships using
thruster missiles can have them push on the *ship*, which is a lot
closer than any planet. This means large ships get higher acceerations
from their missiles and thus, their missiles are harder to hit.

Another corrolary: If you allow the drive to *pull* as well as push,
that means that missiles are accelerating *exponentially* once they get
to the point where they switch from pushing off the firing ship to
pulling on the target ship. Even for small targets, there's a point
where the missile gets a *lot* harder to kill!

And this explains fighters. Being so small, missile fire against them
is pretty worthless. But they can get a good boost against larger
targets. 

This opens some interesting possibilities. We need to define the limits
on the drive a bit more. Do you need 100 times the mass to push on?
1000? 10k? A million? Each choice affects tactics.

Even if this is not canon, it'd be a fun optional drive type.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:39:49 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1269

>	I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters
>might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados,
>etc. are out of the question.
>
>	But what kind of disaster can threaten a modern, TL-C world? And as a
>bonus, seems really sfi-fiish, yet realistic. I can't count how many times
>Star Trek has used ion storms, or gravimetric waves, or whatever. What
>among these would really happen? What can I maliciously threaten my players
>with?
>
>	Whats the 57th century equivalent of the flood of the century? And whats
>the Third Imperium version of a sandbag?

Solar flares are only a part of the problem. Any massive increase in solar
wind output creates a "magnetic storm" in the upper atmosphere of a planet
or an "ion storm" in space. To a TL12 society, these would more likely be an
annoyance with a few fatalities (like a thunderstorm).

Earthquake prediction can lower fatalilties, but they'll probably still
happen; tectonic plates don't go away given enough technology. Given that
earthquakes are SDIC phenomena (you can't predict them more than a short
time in advance), there will still be panicked evacuations, warnings and
drills. Of course the best place for quake shelters is - in the air!

Toxic outgassing and lake inversions will probably also still happen, though
seldom more than once in the same place. These make living near them a
rather short-term problem. Around volcanoes there's always the danger of hot
gases being vented, rather like a couple of events that caused severe damage
here.

In an alien environment, there are always some more possibilities:

If the world has high oxygen or combustibles, atmosphere explosions are a
possibility - a rare combination of innocuous weather conditions cause a
chunk of atmosphere several cubic kilometers in size (or larger) to explode.
Flashfires on the ground are also a problem, especially where non-native
(non-adapted) species are being grown.

Things break, guvnor. Forcing weather into a stable state requires constant
expenditure of energy; what if the computer breaks down or reverses the
effects (but the weather control was the only thing keeping the level of the
Gurshak sea below the dikes!)? Physical dams still break due to age,
earthquake or other causes, and a wall of water you can predict isn't a lot
better than one you can. Shielding on nuclear (fusion) plants has been known
to fail; radioactive clouds are a possibility as are catastrophic
explosions. In the ensuing power failures, a lot of infrastructure (ie
weather control) breaks down, which in turn compounds the danger even for
people not near the actual failure. In the constant battle between
Engineering and Entropy, Entropy will eventually win it all...

What would happen if a ship's "jump wake" failed to close after it? It'd be
a one in a trillion accident, but then there are a lot of ships out there.
Then there's big rocks falling from the sky - they come in all sizes from
pretty to catastrophe. Comets might release toxic gases into the air as an
added side benefit ("has that comet cyanogen'ed you yet?"). 

Then there's always the organic side of things - swarms, individual
dangerous animals, red tides (or the equivalent), plagues, unfriendly
bacteria outbreaks ... here in Calgary we recently had an outbreak of a
medicine-resistant bacterium that is normally only found in hospitals (!?!)

In essence, find some aspect of geology, ecology, or astronomy, and let it
go wild. Or have something break down and start a chain reaction (see "The
Trigger Effect", episode 1 of Connections by James Burke). And I haven't
even begun to think of what could go wrong with psionics...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:34:45 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Per Bernhardsson wrote:
>Craig Berry wrote:

>(1) Well, they can be stolen...
>(2)(3)Means it must be easy to use.
>(4)It has to be stolen close to the use time.
>(5)Shielding (see 8).
>(6)Pressurechamber + antigrav unit, it would be expensive,  but it would
>probably work.
>(7)Shielding (see 8).
>(8)A small timed radio transmitter placed within the shielding.

What a job!

>I think terrorists could probably use it, but they would have to be
>pretty good at what they do.

I surely think that it would be easier to steal a military nuke than to
convert a mining nuke as a weapon. 
OTOH, this is a good common adventure seed. "Track the mining nuke thieves!"


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:57:51 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: re: Flood of the Millennium

Michael Barry wrote:

>
>What sort of disaster could threaten a TL-C + world?
>
>What about an artificially intelligent computer virus that infects
>starship transponders?
>
><Flame retardant suit ON>
><Ablative covering ON>
><Running shoes ON>
>
>Let the flaming commence!


	Um... how about a bit of rogue dark matter brushing up against its
Oort cloud several millenia ago, causing a massive infall (say 4000 or so a
year) of comets over the next 5-6 centuries?  Aside from the fear of
impact, they'd leave dust and crap all over the inner system (but boy would
the night skies be gorgeous).

	In passing, how many TML'ers actually took the time to go outside
and look at Hale-Bopp at its brightest?  Shame on you if you didn't; it was
visible naked-eye from downtown Montreal, tail and all.  We'll be lucky if
we get another one as good in our lifetimes.

	Other disasters:

* a plague of postings with WINMAIL.DAT cruft at the end,

* the star suddenly deciding to go variable,

* uncontrollable chaoticity in the weather control spiralling into utter
nightmare (you could throw in a Sterlingesque MegaStorm here),

* infestation of the planet's oceans by an algae that thinks local
conditions are crumpets and tea, so that wierd things start happening to
atmosphere balance, oxygen content rises, fires start real fast, and so
forth,

* plague,

* a swarm of rogue Von Neumann machines that do nothing but eat regular
matter and regurgitate little plastic statutes of Cleon,

* the macarena making a comeback,

* terrorists taking over the planetwide roadgrid and holding the entire
travelling population hostage (Speed writ large)

* terrorists introducing a virus into a highly religious world's net that
causes it to display or transmit nothing but images calculated to to
blaspheme, sacrilege, etc.  The population goes nuts and runs off to a
revival meeting after smashing their communications infrastructure (if not
everything else above TL-0) into bits.  Things Fall Apart.

* a planet-wide soccer or hockey riot (what I want to know is why we
Montrealers riot when the Habs _win_ the Cup; their performance this year
was certainly riotworthy: we should have burned down the Molson Centre).

* a real _bad_ stock market crash or other financial catastrophe that wipes
out 90% of the wealth (say the financial system's electronic infrastructure
suffered a massive catastrophic failure that wiped out all non-cold hard
cash money)

* disgruntled power plant employees causing local fusion plant to go boom
(dunno how possible or big a bang this would get you)

* nearby star goes supernova (get out those lead jammies everyone... right
down to the blue-green algae).

	That's it for this AM; have to go study.


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:21:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

An initial note:  I'm newly reaquainted with Traveller.  I played in the
black book days and will be buying T4 shortly to get back up to speed.  That
said, please excuse any comments I make which are resolved due to the
evolution of the game (I would appreciate it if you point me in the right
direction when I go wrong).

At 05:28 PM 4/28/97 -0500, Ryan Christensen wrote:
>Here's an idea that struck me in the shower this morning:
>
>	Thrust plates work by pushing on the gravitational field of a 
>star or similar body (re: Starships, etc.). It may be that the drive 
>grabs incoming gravitons, reverses them (so to speak) so they push the 
>ship instead of pull it, and hype up their energy (so that each one 
>pushes harder than usual). This way, you've got an explanation for:
>
>	1) KE conservation: the ship is being pushes by gravitons, which 
>are losing the appropriate energy;

Energy transitions are always inefficient, right?  If this is so, then there
has to be a huge influx of energy at the gravity plate to 1) capture the
gravitons, 2) reverse their direction, and 3) increase their energy.  Even
with lasar battaries, where does all this energy come from and why is it
more efficiently used in capturing gravitons than, say, standard combustion?

Gravitons, if we buy that they exist as distinct entities, would have
incredibly small mass requiring that the plates be unbelievably dense if
they are attempting to capture them.  This is inconsistent with the use of
these plates for moving "small" objects (like tanks).

I think that treating gravity as a field theory (like magnetism) would offer
a more plausible explanation for the thrust plates.

>	2) Size increases with thrust: more equipment and power is 
>needed to pump the incoming gravitons to higher and higher energy 
>levels;

This is consistent with a "magnetic" style field theory as well.

>	3) Drive inefficency past the system level: rapid fall-off of 
>gravitational strength means less gravitons to work with.

Same applies to the field theory as the strength of the field diminishes
with the inverse square (?) of the distance from the source of the field.

Stretching my physics background, I understand gravity to work by
"stretching" the fabric of space and creating "wells" which draw surrounding
material in.  Perhaps a Thuster plate creates a "mountain" behind the
spacecraft which pushes material away.  This mountain would be small to
limit the effect on other objects in the immediate vicinity of the craft,
but would create a space-time ripple which would push the spaceship like the
bow wave on a boat pushes a dolphin.  The mountain could be created by
generating a gravitational field with the opposite polarity of the field
created by the local star.  When the two interact, the force of the star's
field pushes the mountain away, and, thus, accelerates the spacecraft.

I would guess that this type of field would need to be generated through
some sort of side effect.  Like the way a magnetic field is generated when
electricity is run through a coil.  Using this technique for magnetism, we
have been able to create very light weight, very strong magnets which start
and stop on command.  Perhaps some 4D interaction of electricity and
magnetism would have the effect of generating directed gravitational fields
and include some side effects like gamma rays which we see from pulsars.

Just a thought.

Brett Fishburne bfish@atlantech.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1271
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 29 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1272



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Flood of the millenia
THUDDD suggestion
RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Some technical questions
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Disasters
Re: Product Question
Re: Starship Combat
Thrust Plates Revisited
Re: TNE-RCES list
RE: Sports in Imperium
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Some technical questions
Re: The 3-Task System
Re: Asteroids (mostly)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:32:41 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Flood of the millenia

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 
> >K.C. Komosky wrote:
> >>
> >>         I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century
> disasters
> >> might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados,
> >> etc. are out of the question.
> >>
> >
> >How about earthquakes, volcanoes, solar flares, 1500mph hurricanes,
> >plagues or predatory swarms (like army ants but much worse)?
> >Just my demented mind at work.
> 
>         Speaking as a person who's getting his BSc in Environmental Geology next
> month, I'm guessing that with gravitic technology volcano and earthquake
> prediction and control should be very easy to acheive.
> 

It comes down to economics. If your world has millions of people,
sure, this stuff is easy to monitor. If, OTOH, you're talking about
ten thousand people on an outpost at TL 12, that's a different 
matter. It's not worth the cash to put in all sorts of fancy
equipment to monitor stuff that's not likely to occur.

>         1500mph hurricanes? In worlds with weather control? And plagues or
> predatory swarms are certainly very vicious and nasty, but at least to me
> seem like different types of natural disasters than whatI was looking for.
> 

See above.

>         Solar flares - now we might be on to something. But I'm a geologist, not
> an astronomer. Would anyone out there like to comment on just how dangerous
> a solar flare might be? Or is my impressions about solar flares just built
> on bad sci-fi?
> 

How about a variable star (much MORE variable than Sol is) producing
the "flare of the century" every ... well, century. The stream of
gases interacts in an evil way with something on the planet (either
an animal, plant or chemical). Sounds far-fetched but you could 
expand on it from there.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:03:28 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDD suggestion

	Hey Craig:  it just occurred to me that a good way of structuring
the ballot for the next THUDDD would be to have people rate the ships on a
1-10 descending scale, _on each mission requirement_ plus one for general
coolosity and innovativeness and another for role-playing potential;so we'd
have for, say, the last THUDDD something like so:


Wilderness refuelling ability:
Offensive capability:
Defensive capability:
Fleet integratability:
Medical facilities:
Coolosity & innovativeness:
Role-playing potential:



	I think that this would make for a better mapping of conformity to
specs with actual results.

	With regard to the next one, I'm beginning to think that if we do
the Frontier Trader thing, we ought to leave it as open as possible in
terms of size, drive, and so forth, and base the results on criteria like:


Economic Efficiency (cost, cargo carried, exploratory bang for buck):
Duration (ability to stay in the field for prolonged periods):
Crew comfort (very important on long hauls):
Defensibility (ability to fight/run):
Coolosity:
Role-playing potential:


	So basically, we'd be able to see how the big-ship exploratory
traders would do versus the little-ship Frontier Traders (personally, I
think that plunking for multiple small ships rather than one big one makes
more sense; fewer eggs in smaller baskets, cover more ground, lower cost,
etc, but I've already said so).  This would let me do something small, the
big-ship guys do something big, and we look at what the list thinks and
learn something.


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:01:16 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Remember that the modern United States Army has over 50% of its combat
>assets in either the National Guard or Reserve.  The NG is under state
>control, and generally does not answer to the federal government.  They do,
>however, accept training and equipment from the Regular Army, and when
>called upon to serve, will generally do so.

  The latter part of this statement is false.  The National Guard is 
funded and organized through the federal Department of Defense.  The
National Guard is at the beck and call of the State's Governor until
Federal call up is activated.  Then the unit becomes a unit of the
Federal Government.  There is not a thing the Governor can do about this.
This was made clear a few years ago, when several Governors didn't want
their NG units to take part in training exercises in Central America.
The Supreme Court told told the Governors 'too bad'.  The troops went.
  When the U.S. DoD stood down the the 7th Army, the DoD also stood
down the NG units (mostly in New England) that supported the 7th Army.
The Governors protested, as did Congressional members, but since they
wouldn't pony up the money to pay for the units, the units stood down.
The states love the NG, it's a federally funded work force for the state.
The states don't like the price tag, i.e. Federal call up.

   I see Imperial Army units operating in much the same way.  
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 02:13:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Some technical questions

At 11:33 29/04/97 +0300, you wrote:
>I have always thought that nuclear dampers affect only fission. 

FF&S states that a Damper creates Nodes and Anti-Nodes, with one working
against fission, and one against fusion.

>Reason how can they operate on missiles
>(which obviously use fusion) and not on reactors is this : the fusion
>warheads we use today start the fusion by igniting a small fission bomb.
>That is the only way today to start fusion reaction without magnetic
>chambers and such stuff (I think). 

I'm fairly sure that some official stuff states that high TL nukes are
fusion only, and don't use fission triggers. If so I'd guess they could use
some sort of gravitic focusing and/or laser technology.

>Mikko Parviainen

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:25:51 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

Ryan Christensen wrote:
>Here's an idea that struck me in the shower this morning:
>
>	Thrust plates work by pushing on the gravitational field of a 
>star or similar body (re: Starships, etc.). It may be that the drive 
>grabs incoming gravitons, reverses them (so to speak) so they push the 
>ship instead of pull it, and hype up their energy (so that each one 
>pushes harder than usual). This way, you've got an explanation for:
>
>	1) KE conservation: the ship is being pushes by gravitons, which 
>are losing the appropriate energy;
>
>	2) Size increases with thrust: more equipment and power is 
>needed to pump the incoming gravitons to higher and higher energy 
>levels;
>
>	3) Drive inefficency past the system level: rapid fall-off of 
>gravitational strength means less gravitons to work with.
>
>	Comments?

Interesting

I've imagined something like that for the antigrav devices. 
I assume that the potential energy increase with altitude(which is not
stupid :-). There is no flat level of potential energy (ie you cannot fall
at constant speed, ie acceleration is never Zero). The antigrav device
interacte/create a flow of gravitons which create a local flat level of
potential energy (a stable point of energy). So just under (around) the
grav device, the acceleration in 0. Side effect : Just under the Zero G,
there is a double G zone! I assume that this devices cannot provide thrust.
But this is totally _my_ assumption. I use Heplar for that.
You could assume that the flat (no decrease) level of potential enregy
could be turned into an increase of potential energy so the ship "fall out
of the massive body"  

1) quite as you,
2) the ability to create isn't related to the Gs of a body
3) quite as you (gravitons cannot be created out of G fields)


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Disasters

KC Komolsky asks about 57th century disasters.
 
Here are a few ideas:
Orbital satellite losing orbit/crashing to earth
Starships aiming the wrong end of their drives at towns
Starships hitting a planet at .1 C
Orbital defenses (lasers/missiles) going haywire
Universal Lubricant leaks - how do you pick that up???
Email flame wars (who knows how big they'll get when billions of
people can reply instantly?)
Startport traffic jams
Engine failures on anti-grav cities
Outbreaks of Mad Cow disease
Supraconductor coolant leaks
Someone dropping coffee into a megacity's main computer
the Virus
Blight  (When the amazong has become a wheat field, how will you stop
swarms of insects from ravaging it?)
Hydogen tank explosions
People who make lots of typos.

Well, that's just off the top of my head but I'm sure sci-fi has some
good ideas... How about the planet's core going cold?
 
 
 
On the Quebec thread:  I want to tell everybody that I didn't mean to
call Mr. Komolsky a racist.  However my opinion of the Reform party
stands.

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:48:42 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Product Question

>... CSC also contains a relatively detailed vehicle design system,
>yet FF&S is going to include even more detailed rules.  I detect
>a lot of confusion a year from now...

I have a lot of confusion right now. The design rules from QSDS, SSDS, and
CSC are inconsistent. Jump drive prices differ by an order of magnitude.
CSC has gravitic stacking, which starships do not, and of course the armor
systems are all totally incompatible.

I really really hope FF&S fixes all this, but I fear it will add yet one
more incompatible design sequence. You know what they say about standards -
you get so many to choose from.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:48:48 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>The problem with hexes on the ground is (as everybody knows) that rooms etc
>have 90 degree corners forcing the players to zig-zag when moving north but
>not when moving east.

This claim is just so silly I don't know if you're serious or not. Look,
hexes or squares are just an abstraction to measure distances. There are
not really big hexes painted on the ground that everything has to move
exactly through the center of. It's just as easy to use 90 degree corners
on a hex map as on a rectangular map. Just draw any lines at any angles on
a hex map, the hexes you pass through will estimate the length of the line.
This is true whether you follow curves, straight lines, 90 degree bends, or
zig-zag. This is not true of square grids; if you draw two lines at 90
degrees to each other and count the squares they pass through there will be
more squares orthogonally than diagonally.

>In space combat it's not such a big problem but no
>real advantages for hexes either.

I disagree. The problem with rectangular grids is that the distance you
measure with them depend on the orientation of the grid. Put a rectangular
grid over an arbitrary line and count the squares it passes through. Then
rotate the grid 90 degrees and count again. You get different numbers. To
compensate you have to do some arithmetic for diagonals. This does not
happen with hex grids.

>One big drawback for hexes is in 3D. Why
>should one view of the playing surface be square grid and the other not?
>When designing a 3D system please refrain from giving preferred dimensions.

In the proposed 3D space map the XY and YZ planes are different; the hex
map is used for 2D movement and the square grid is used only for vertical
movement. You could use a hex map for both, but it is unnecessary because
you'll only use the columns in the YZ map. I liked the hex/square
combination because it made the different dimensions visually distinct, and
in the Z dimension you don't use diagonals so the square grid's inherent
inaccuracy doesn't hurt you. No dimension is "preferred", you could rotate
the ships or the maps by any arbitrary angle if you wanted. They are
visually distinct, though, so you don't get them mixed up. I thought this
was a benefit; you don't want them mixed up because they measure different
things. I'm afraid I don't see the "big drawback" for hexes in 3D.

>I'd say hexmaps are here because most RPG are carrying old archaic stuff
>from the bad old wargame days (hitpoints etc).

A lot of good and bad ideas have been tried from the bad old wargame days.
Hex maps survived because they were a good idea. There were square wargame
maps too, they fell out of favor because they didn't work as well.

>But as you're all free to do whatever you like in your universe by all
>means keep the damned hexmaps.

Why thanks for your permission... One thing that has always irritated me
about square grids is the tendency of designers to line everything up in
them exactly, as if the grid was some kind of law of nature which cannot be
broken. Consider at all the precise 1.5 m hallways in ship deck plans,
regardless of what the hallway is used for, and curved ships sliced into
rectangular boxes only so they can line up with that unalterable grid. Then
look at real building blueprints; everthing doesn't line up on some
imaginary grid. When I make a map I just draw the terrain or walls where
they make sense. I only used the hexes later to estimate distances and to
regulate movement.

>A tip for hexophiles: if you can live with nonperfect hexes it is possible
>to inscribe a regular 1m hexmap onto a 1.5 meter grid thus giving you 1m
>hexes (much better scale) and you can still use the old shipplans without
>having to do the rather large change I did: changing the scale from 1.5 to
>1m thus reducing displacement to 1 dton = 5 m3.

Thanks for the suggestion, but you can always inscribe a hex map (or a
grid, for that matter) on anything. So what if a wall cuts through a hex?
It's only an abstraction.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:55:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Thrust Plates Revisited

   Hi.

> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:28:46 -0500
> From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>

> 	Thrust plates work by pushing on the gravitational field of a 
> star or similar body (re: Starships, etc.). It may be that the drive 
> grabs incoming gravitons, reverses them (so to speak) so they push the 
> ship instead of pull it, and hype up their energy (so that each one 
> pushes harder than usual). This way, you've got an explanation for:

> 	1) KE conservation: the ship is being pushes by gravitons, which 
> are losing the appropriate energy;

> 	2) Size increases with thrust: more equipment and power is 
> needed to pump the incoming gravitons to higher and higher energy 
> levels;

> 	3) Drive inefficency past the system level: rapid fall-off of 
> gravitational strength means less gravitons to work with.

> 	Comments?

   Well, you asked for 'em, so here they are.

   Regarding point (1) --- this drive will in fact conserve Kinetic
   Energy, but I see no advantage to this, since in the real world
   kinetic energy is not conserved generally.  Total energy is
   conserved; kinetic energy is not.  I'm sounding like a broken record
   here, I know.  But this  conservation-of-KE fallacy is like a weed
   that just won't die.  KE is not conserved! Don't just take my word
   for it; look it up in any freshman physics book.

   KE-quibbles aside, your system should work fine, but is very
   different from the traditional Trav manuever drive  for the following
   /physical/ reasons:

   a) The traditional Trav drive has a constant acceleration and a
   distance-time equation of D=(1/4)AT^2.  Your drive has a constant
   power-to-mass ratio and yields a distance-time equation of
   D=(2/3)sqrt((P/M)* T^3), where P/M is the power-to-mass ratio.  It's
   accleration is /not/  constant.

   b) One aspect of these "pushing" type drives is that they must also
   be "pulling" type drives.  What this may mean is that while pushing
   against a grav field, you may in fact be putting energy into it, then
   when you slow down, or "pull" during your deceleration, you can get
   that same energy out of it.  Your M-drive uses energy during
   acceleration, and produces energy during deceleration.  A real-world
   analogy is an electric car that uses generators in its wheels for
   braking --- braking the car recharges its batteries.

   If you don't make extensive use of canon in your campaign, or if you
   don't care about real-world physics for a game, then your explanation
   should work fine, though.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:26:50 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES list

At 03:12 am 04/29/97 -0700, Bri wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone out there could be so kinda as to provide me
>with the pertinent information? Thanks :)
>
>bri <bri@teleport.com>

	Send 'subscribe TNE-RCES' as the body of a message to
listproc@tower.clark.net. For help, send the word 'help'.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:08:50 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Sports in Imperium

At 12:41 am 04/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
> On the whole Sports in the Imperium question:
>
>  First of all, some sports just never go out of style. Some of your basic 
>track and field events have been engaged in for millenia, and aren't about 
>to go out of style any time soon. So the marathon, and the 100m dash will 
>continue.
>
>  But thats not very much fun.
>
>  Back here on earth, I'm a pretty big fan of auto racing. And while the 
>technology may certainly change, I think the idea of sapient beings 
>piloting very fast vehivles either through the air, ground or space will 
>still be alive and well in Third Imperium.
>
>	I can see two types of racing in the year 0. First of all would be the 
>grand, Paris-Dakar rally type of race. Take your stock scout/courier, and 
>the first one to Vland from Sylea wint the race. Secondly, would be 
>smaller, shorter time scale track races, either on the ground, air or in 
>space.

	I wanna compete in the Terra's Cup solar sail races! 
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:15:10 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

At 06:18 am 04/29/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:52:30 -0600, I wrote:
>> force two hydrogen nuclei (for example) to "stick" together. From the MT
>> Referee's Manual, nuclear dampers "project a series of nodes and anti-nodes
>> where the strong nuclear force is enhanced or degraded, rendering nuclear
>> warheads ineffective."
>
>Gotcha.
>
>> 	Now, nowhere in there does it say that it works only on pre-TL8 warheads.
>> And advanced warheads will be fusion. Even if fission were better (it
>> ain't, that's why we even now use fusion warheads), the existence of a
>> defense which only affects fission warheads would simply mean everybody
>> would use fusion warheads. Since nuclear dampers work on all kinds of
>> nuclear warheads, they can affect fusion as well as fission. Hence, there
>> should be SOME effect on fusion power plants.
>
>Hmmm... OK.  Since you only quoted rules to state that nuclear dampers
>can affect fusion reactions, I'll assume that some handwaving is

	Actually, the rules I quoted *don't* specify fusion reactions, they
specific nuclear reactions in general. From the way they're assumed to work
vs missiles at any tech level, it follows that they *must* work on fusion
reactions, because higher TL warheads will be pure fusion.

>necessary here.  I was just wondering if a node/anti-node array could
>have any affect on a fusion reaction as we know it today.

	Sure. In fact, I'm assuming that's how they get fusion reactors to work at
lower temperatures/pressures. If you're meddling with the nuclear forces,
you can make the hydrogen nuclei a bit more likely to "stick" together, and
won't NEED to bang them together as hard using temp/pressure.

>BTW, warheads that rely on fission explosions to "initiate" a fusion
>reaction could be prevented from detonating by specifically foiling
>the fission reaction (ie: the fusion reaction would never need to be
>*directly* affected).

	True. But I really don't think we're always going to need fission to
initiate a fusion reaction. Even really good super high explosives might do
the trick, or a laser trigger, or gravitic compression, or ... So I'm
forced to assume NDs affect the fusion reaction. YMMV.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:33:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

At 02:34 pm 04/29/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Per Bernhardsson wrote:
>>Craig Berry wrote:
>
>>(1) Well, they can be stolen...
>>(2)(3)Means it must be easy to use.
>>(4)It has to be stolen close to the use time.
>>(5)Shielding (see 8).
>>(6)Pressurechamber + antigrav unit, it would be expensive,  but it would
>>probably work.
>>(7)Shielding (see 8).
>>(8)A small timed radio transmitter placed within the shielding.
>
>What a job!
>
>>I think terrorists could probably use it, but they would have to be
>>pretty good at what they do.
>
>I surely think that it would be easier to steal a military nuke than to
>convert a mining nuke as a weapon. 
>OTOH, this is a good common adventure seed. "Track the mining nuke thieves!"

	Determined terrorists will ALWAYS be able to do what you don't want them
to do. I think these precautions will keep down the nutcases and minor
players, which is about all you can hope for. After all, I don't see
anybody (rational) trying to outlaw diesel fuel and fertilizer ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:24:46 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some technical questions

At 11:33 am 04/29/97 +0300, you wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:
>[on nuclear dampers, big bit snipped]
>> 
>> 	Now, nowhere in there does it say that it works only on pre-TL8 warheads.
>> And advanced warheads will be fusion. Even if fission were better (it
>> ain't, that's why we even now use fusion warheads), the existence of a
>> defense which only affects fission warheads would simply mean everybody
>> would use fusion warheads. Since nuclear dampers work on all kinds of
>> nuclear warheads, they can affect fusion as well as fission. Hence, there
>> should be SOME effect on fusion power plants.
>> 
>
>I have always thought that nuclear dampers affect only fission. This is
>because the material I have (MT "basic" books, TNE, FFS) suggests that
>dampers are only used as defenses against missiles, and not as weapons
>attacking reactors of other ships. Reason how can they operate on missiles
>(which obviously use fusion) and not on reactors is this : the fusion
>warheads we use today start the fusion by igniting a small fission bomb.
>That is the only way today to start fusion reaction without magnetic
>chambers and such stuff (I think). On the other hand, fusion power plants

	It's simply getting the initial compression/temperature high enough. A
powerful enough chemical explosive could do the same. Or laser triggers. Or
grav compression. So the enemy would be sitting there frantically focussing
nuclear dampers on my missiles, trying to inhibit a non-existent fission
detonator, right up to the point they vaporize him...

	Your choice, of course, but to me the fact that they're used as defenses
against missiles at all TLs means they MUST work on fusion reactions. The
reason they're not good against fusion power plants is the fact that the
performance drops off rapidly with range. Preventing a 50kT missile from
detonating at 3,000km (keeping the reaction from ever starting) is quite
different than shutting down a 1,000MW power plant at 300,000km (shutting
down an ongoing reaction). Plus, I assume that TL12+ fusion plants USE very
short range nuclear dampers to control the reaction. That explains the huge
jump in fusion plant efficiency at TL12. And a nuclear damper at 300,000km
is not going to be able to overpower a damper at 1m from the reaction.

>All this is written IMHO.

	Ditto here. However, as somebody pointed out, there's a published
adventure where a starship repair shop has a built-in nuclear damper to
prevent people from starting up their *fusion* power plant and leaving
without paying. So there is canonical support.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:12:02 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: The 3-Task System

>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>

(About the max DM)
>What I meant is "What is your justification for assuming that a
>difference in skill or attribute will stop making a difference just
>because the levels involved are very high ?"
(Snip example)

        Well, a maximum DM is an easy & dirty way of telling the PCs that
seeking extremely high skill levels is worthless. Moreover, If Skill-5 is an
expert, then there should be not much difference between Skill-10 and
Skill-11. The most playable way to reflect the fact that the level of
expertness becomes fuzzy at the highest levels is to simply put an upper
bound (IMHO).
        Nevertheless, there is a difference between a potential DM of +11
and a DM of +10. Imagine the referee puts a -1 DM to the task, for whatever
reason (confrontation, special circumstances, etc). Then, the first guy
still has a total +10 DM, but the second has a +9.

>Your second point that by limiting the maximum DM to +10 you reduce the
>chance of success on Impossible tasks to a believeably low chance is a
>good one but this problem could be solved without causing a
>believability gap by simply introducing Nearly Impossible at 21+ &
>Impossible tasks at 24+.

        Then the problem will reappear at the 24+ level. With a maximum +10,
24+ is Really Impossible: No PC will ever be able to do it. With no max. DM,
there is no Really Impossible task: for all difficulty level, there could be
a PC capable of doing it.

>I don't mean to sound too harsh as you are just doing what MegaTraveeler
>always did but a Max Dm has always seemed unrealistic & thats why I
>suggest you remove it.

        I'm not sure the max DM is unrealistic: Real Real Real experts on
some field are extremely rare, so the problem does no usually appear, and
discourages the PCs from becoming one. And is very difficult to put an order
between the best experts in a field. It's easy to assume that an
undergraduate Maths student has a +2 in Maths and a graduate a +3, but
thinking of, say, Gauss and Leibnitz in their time, I would rather think
they both had a +10...

>> >>Combat System:
>> >>        Success: Normal T4 rules. Maximum 3D damage.
>> >>        Spectacular Success: No maximum damage, all the damage of the
>> >>weapon is taken.
>> >Well then how is Spectacular Success any better than a regular Success
>> >if you are using a weapon that only does 1 to 3 dice of dammage anyway
>> >?  Otherwise this is good.
>>         I know, there's no difference for 1 to 3 D damage weapons. Why
>> should there be? After all, these are "low damage weapons", you are >not
usually able to do a lot of damage with them.. if you want to, then >do
called shots.
>
>There should be a difference because (without getting too technical or
>gearheadish) a 1d6 weapon does not blow as big a hole in someone as a
>3d6 weapon does.
        I am missing something. There IS a difference between a 1D weapon
and a 3D weapon: they do 1D or 3D damage. The point is, for weapons with 3D
or less damage, there is no difference between success and spectacular
success: you cannot make marvels with limited means.

>Maybe on a spectacular success you could add +1d6 to
>dammage for 1 to 3 D dammage weapons.

        This way, there would be absolutely no difference between 3D and 4D
damage: in both cases you will do max 3D damage with success, max 4D with
spectacular success.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:52:25 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

At 02:34 PM 4/29/97 +0200, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>Per Bernhardsson wrote:
>>Craig Berry wrote:
>>(1) Well, they can be stolen...
>>(2)(3)Means it must be easy to use.
>>(4)It has to be stolen close to the use time.
>>(5)Shielding (see 8).
>>(6)Pressurechamber + antigrav unit, it would be expensive,  but it would
>>probably work.
>>(7)Shielding (see 8).
>>(8)A small timed radio transmitter placed within the shielding.
>
>What a job!

Right.  Why not instead find a high-uranium/plutonium asteroid far from
anything else, and quietly set up a mining and refining plant.  Manufacture
of the actual bomb is easy from that point.  Yes, it _is_ highly illegal,
but what isn't in the Belt?  

>I surely think that it would be easier to steal a military nuke than to
>convert a mining nuke as a weapon. 
>OTOH, this is a good common adventure seed. "Track the mining nuke thieves!"

Even easier to make 'em yourself.  And a good adventure seed too: "Track
the possibly-shielded high-radioactive sites in the belt and find out
what's there.  And try not to stumble across any valid secret military
installations either." :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1272
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, April 29 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1273



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer Tech
The Imperial Army
Re:  Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
THUDDD Comments
Re: April THUDDD results
Mining nuke security
RE: Disasters
K'kree character generation - now for T4
Disasters and Disaster Tri-Vids of the 4
FW: antimatter matters
Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:52:21 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

At 01:10 PM 4/29/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>        Use optical matter, by TL-13 this should be a mature technology.
>>Optical
>>matter is a large number of very small balls, that can be formed into
>>solids
>>when two or more wide beam lasers intersect in a volume of space.  I read
>>something about this a few years back.  Think of it as being a solid
>>hologram.
>>There are of course problems when the user attempts to interact with the
>>optical matter, when the beam is interrupted.  However TL-13 is really all
>>handwaving anyhow.
>>
>>Eric
>
>Out of curiosity, where actually did you read about those solid holograms?
>I've read about such things in Marvel Comics but never elsewhere.

I _think_ you're talking about a method for manufacturing prototypes.
Under one method, a laser is traced across a pool of semi-liquid plastic
(very small balls in one case), which solidifies where the laser traced.
This solid layer is then lowered into the pool, and another layer is
traced.  This continues, building up a complex 3D shape out of plastic.  

The things manufactured this way are primarily useful as early prototypes
and sometimes as masters for lost-wax casting.  There are other other
similar methods too using layers of paper glued together, for example.

Still, it's isn't _too_ big of a leap from here to TL12, where you could
posit X-ray lithography on a macro scale, pushing tens of atoms around to
ultimately create macro-scale 3D objects.  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:58:30 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: The Imperial Army

Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>The question I have is what is the Imperial Policy about recruitment
>and stationing. Are units stationed on the worlds where they are raised?
>If a given world has internal conflicts that degenerate into armed
disputes,
>does the Imperium expect the troopers in the army units to fire on their
>own families? Or does the Imperium have a policy that, when a given member

>world degenerates into armed conflict that the Imperial Army units raised
>on that world will sit quietly in garrison while the Marines blast cousin
>Clem and Uncle Ralph into ash? Or does the Imperium simply raise troops on

>one world, ship them off to another and so that local conflicts do not
boil
>over into the Imperial Army?

The answer depends on your Mileu of choice, I think.  In the Classic
Traveller, 1100 era, I strongly beleive the Imperial Army (as such) does
not exist, except when mobilized from member worlds.  The actual Imperial
Army in peacetime" consists of Corps and Army level headquarters and
support units, which are then filled out with subordinate units activated
from the member worlds.  These formations are then sent wherever needed;
they might have been activated to put down riots on their home world
(unlikely, unless this rioting somehow threatens Imperial perogatives), or
they might be loaded into naval transports and shipped off to fight the
evil mind-rippers or to garrison a planet hard-hit by Vargr raids.  My
reasoning behind this is simple economics; the Imperium in 1100 is too big
to afford or to adequately manage a largely underemployed full-time army
AND a huge navy/marine force structure.

Mileu 0 is a horse of a different color.  The Empire is not very large, and
is culturally and economically dominated by Sylea.  I suspect that in Mileu
0 there is a full-time standing Imperial Army, which used to be the Sylean
Federation Army.  It is probably almost entirely Sylean, and as such is
very homogenous culturally.  I would imagine the other former members of
the Federation of Sylea contributed some units to this force, but their
numbers are likely small compared to the Sylean contribution to the force
pool.  The new worlds added to the Empire since Year 0 may have also
contributed some forces, but not in huge numbers.  GIven the small size of
the new Third Imperium, it would be a much easier task to shift Army units
around to suit cultural needs and political expediency (unlike Mileu 1100,
when the Imperium is just too damned big for this kind of
micro-management).


>I agree that to hold ground, you need the classic grunt, either with
>spear and shield or ABD and PGMP. I wonder if the Imperium really
>considers holding any given mud ball that important. As long as you
>can refuel and jump on; why should any world be occupied? As many on
>this list ask back when Independence Day came out, why would anyone
>by pass the Gas Giants and the asteriod belt to fight over one planet?
>Why does the Imperium need to 'occupy' any given world if it has access
>to the rest of that star's planetary system?

As for this, the question is really "Why did the Imperium (or whoever)
attack at all?"  If you just want to inderdict a world, controlling the
rest of the system does not prevent the inhabitants of the target planet
from launching (or even receiving) starships.  Laying seige to the target
planet, due to the volume of space involved, requires a HUGE fleet to give
even a 90% guarantee that the planet will not be sending or receiving
ships.  Its cheaper in terms of time and resources to invade and conquer
the planet, and garrison it with inexpensive ground troops, than it is to
surround the planet with an expensive fleet for an extended period of time.

If you want to conquer the world, you have to land and take it.  If you
want to prevent the world from communicating with other worlds, you need to
lay a wastefully expensive and potentially ineffective siege, or land and
take the world (or bomb it into the stone age).  Economics and harsh
reality mean that the groundpounder is just as needed in Mileu 0 or Mileu
1100.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:40:01 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

>Even if this is not canon, it'd be a fun optional drive type.
One thing that you haven't looked at: decelleration. In principle,
such a drive could decellerate (relative to a planet) arbitrarily fast. 

(which may be OK...but needs to be thought about.)

>thruster missiles can have them push on the *ship*, which is a lot
>closer than any planet.
You haven't defined a range dropoff for the drive yet - whether pushing
off the ship helps depends on how you make it scale with range.

>missiles are accelerating *exponentially* once they get
>to the point where they switch from pushing off the firing ship to
>pulling on the target ship.

I don't see why this is true - acceleration (in your basic drive) scales
as relative velocity, not distance; if you're closing on the target ship
rapidly, your acceleration goes down.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

I'm not sure that a nuclear bomb would make mining that much easier.
Think of the losses involved in the vaporized material, not to mention the
material that is rendered unusable from the radiation.  Instead of nukes
to split asteroids, how about Meson guns?  The stresses caused by the
internal explosions should allow a careful operator to peel asteroids like
onions.

Also, it would prevent what, IMHO, would be the most likely terrorist
scenario involving mining nukes.  Not thier direct use on planets or
ships, but thier use out in the planetoid belts to alter the orbits of
large asteroids (ala dadelous drive)!

- --------------------------------------------

Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:18:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: THUDDD Comments

Hi all,

Well, my entry to the April THUDDD didn't go over too well:

> YOUR ENTRY WAS:  GSbAG 'Montcalm' Patrol Crusier 
> 
>               OVERALL:  5.11  (Rank 12 of 14)
>           USE IN GAME:  5.33  (Rank 14 of 14)
etc, etc.

Anyways, aside from its actual deficiencies, a few comments
were made to the effect that it was over-crewed. Hmph.

I followed the crew calculations from SSDS as closely as possible...
which is to say, it was somewhat reminiscent of a computer game I used to 
play...

"You are in a twisty maze of passages, all alike".

There has really got to be a better way of calculating crew requirements.
This is unusable.

Also, someone asked why I had 38 gunners (a fair question), which was
more than the entire crew of some other entries... so, someone, tell
me where I went wrong here.

20 light & heavy laser turrets   -   20 gunners
4 missle turrets                 -    4 gunners
2 sandacsters                    -    2  "
1 nuclear damper                 -    1  "
11 MFDs                          -   11  " (on the bridge)
                                   ------
                                     38

Right??? There's no automation bonus for gunners, so it
doesn't even matter of I'm low auto vs. high auto - you always
gotta have a lot of gunners. Now, this would give an advantage
to a ship with a big bay laser as opposed to a battery of 10 turrets,
as the bay laser would have 1 (maybe 2, depending if it needs an MFD)
gunner, whereas a battery of 10 turrets requires 11 gunners! Big
difference!

Note that this isn't even that heavily armed - I got comments saying
it had "poor weaponry"! Any decently armed ship (that uses turrets)
would easily have hundreds of gunners!

Also, going over my THUDDD notes (and I never even sent in my ratings...
sigh) I see that crew sizes (not counting my ship) ranged from
11 to 29, though I came up with 56!!! Also, most ships were using
standard automation, just like me! What gives??? I'm also the only
person who listed 'Maintenance' crew - are they supposed to be rolled into
Engineering?

So, would some other ship designers or you fabulous GDW-beta folks
please set me straight? This is a bit vexing.

Vexed,
Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: April THUDDD results

> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> 
>   Well, yet another close showing by Generica Starships - guess QSDS is
> not so bad after all.

Yes, I was very pleased at the good showing by QSDS designs.  That 25%
discount makes up for a multitude of sins... :)

> In fact, I'd be guessing the Imperial Navy will be
> buying the Type 45212, since it came closest to the design criteria. ;-)

Having worked in the defense industry for six years prior to my current
civilian job, let me assure you that your views on military procurement
are, ahem, rather naive. :)  If the Type 45212 gets purchased, it will be
because

(a) Your yards are in a powerful congressperson's -- er, make that
    "noble's" -- home turf.
(b) Generica Shipyards hires better lobbyists than the competition.
(c) GS has really good dirt on several key acquisition committee
    members.

Only rarely does technical merit or closeness to specs decide a contract,
given that all proposals generally have the basic general compliance with
minimal performance requirements which my boss at the time called
"answering the mail."

>   Again, a most useful exercise, since the contest helped me a great deal
> in testing my own thoughts about ship design.  I still think a second
> phase with redesign of the top vote getters would result in even better
> final designs (though this might reduce some of the idiosyncracy inherent
> in doing designs w/o input from others).

Rather than an immediate second pass through the process, my plan is to
revisit old designs from time to time, months down the road.  Folks would
be free to enter ships from the previous contest into the new one, "as-is"
or with modifications.  The new competitions would benefit both from
hindsight and from any new design systems (or fixes to old ones) made
available in the interim.  I think that idiosyncracy is the single most
valuable aspect of THUDDD, and don't want to do anything that will flatten
it out.

>   As for the next design competition, I'd strongly prefer the exploritory
> vessal over the yacht.  I'd also prefer a larger design size, like 2,000
> to 3,000 tons - Leviathan size.  The ships we've been working on so far
> have been smaller - it would be nice to have a change.

I tend to agree on both counts.  Having misplaced my copy of Leviathan
(d'oh!), can anyone more organized than I please look up the exact tonnage
of that vessel?

My current plans are:

- - Do exploratory trader in May, yacht in June.
- - Make the yacht contest lean more toward creative description,
  deckplans, internal/external views, and other aspects of ship
  design beyond the mechanics of thwapping subsystems into a hull.
- - At the request of many web-impaired list members, continue the
  current pattern of posting designs, ballots, and results to the
  TML, but also make each available on the web for those (like me)
  who prefer that.

All of these are of course open for discussion, at least through Friday
night.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Mining nuke security

> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:26:36 +0200
> From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
> 
> Craig Berry wrote:
> > 
> > I've done a lot of thinking on this; baby nukes are just too useful in
> > asteroid mining to be outlawed entirely, but obviously you'd want to keep
> > them under *very* tight control.  Here are the guidelines I came up with:
> 
> Under each heading I've tried to figure out a way to go around it.
[Good workarounds snipped]

> I think terrorists could probably use it, but they would have to be
> pretty good at what they do.

Exactly.  The first rule of security is that there is *no* perfect
security.  Instead, you make the cost of breaching the security (in
required skill, components, logistics, and so forth) so high that it's
impractical for any but the best-equipped and best-organized opponent
groups to do so.  Then you watch them *very* carefully. :)

The analogy is to car security.  A determined, highly skilled thief *can*
get past modern door locks, circuit-keyed ignition systems, "Club"-like
steering lock mechanisms, and "Lojack"-type tracers to steal a car.  But
why bother?  The next car over is probably unlocked with a spare key in
the glove compartment.  Steal that one instead, and save yourself a lot of
work.  Similarly, make a mining nuke hard enough to use for terrorism, and
terrorists will (tend to) bypass it in favor of other ways of blowing
things up.

> On other problem with (8), if the legal owner is going to blow an
> asteroid with very high metal content that metal might shield the bomb
> from the signal.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the last-minute
confirmation signal is both too easily spoofed and too easily
inadvertantly shielded during legitimate operations.  Forget that one.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:09:58 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Disasters

>KC Komolsky asks about 57th century disasters.
>
>Here are a few ideas:
>Orbital satellite losing orbit/crashing to earth
>Starships aiming the wrong end of their drives at towns
>Starships hitting a planet at .1 C
>Orbital defenses (lasers/missiles) going haywire
>Universal Lubricant leaks - how do you pick that up???
>Email flame wars (who knows how big they'll get when billions of
>people can reply instantly?)
>Startport traffic jams
>Engine failures on anti-grav cities
>Outbreaks of Mad Cow disease
>Supraconductor coolant leaks
>Someone dropping coffee into a megacity's main computer
>the Virus
>Blight  (When the amazong has become a wheat field, how will you stop
>swarms of insects from ravaging it?)
>Hydogen tank explosions
>People who make lots of typos.


	Some pretty god ones here. But most of them are in the "human error 
category". Its not mother nature taking revenge, but sheer human stupidity. 
I guess I was looking for more natural natural disasters.

	Not that that isn't a real concern, As well, human stupidity can also 
effect natural disasters. Here in Winnipeg (where the flood of the century, 
if not millenia is bearing down on us), we've spent millions of dollars 
over the past 50 years building dikes and diversions to ward of floods. But 
just a week ago, provincial engineers realized that the flood water was 
going to do and end-run around the side of the dikes and enter the city. So 
we have the comical (but very, very frightening) sight of city bulldozers 
frantically trying to create a 40km dike in 3 days, that would normally 
take 3 months to build.

>On the Quebec thread:  I want to tell everybody that I didn't mean to
>call Mr. Komolsky a racist.  However my opinion of the Reform party
>stands.

	Who is this Komolsky character? *joke*

	Hey you don't have to like us. But now we know who to round up and send to 
the detention camps once we seize power. >insert maniacal laugh here<

	(I guess thats only funny if your party has been called racist and 
obliquely compared to the Nazis as many times as Reform has. Rest assured, 
we're the most libertarian, anti-government and pro-freedom party in 
Canadian politics).

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:16:08 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: K'kree character generation - now for T4

	Well, I took a break from flood fighting today to stay at home and wait 
for the UPS man to deliver a sewer back-up valve for the flood. And in the 
meantime, I finally finished my conversion of the K'kree character 
generation from Alien Module 2 to the T4 rules.

	Now, it'll take me some time to type them up to submit them anywhere (plus 
the back-up valve is finally here, so I have to go out for a while), and 
its really only in the first draft stage. I was hoping to have a few people 
go over them and see how well the skill charts work (the only majorly 
different change from CT). Should I submit them here, or to the GDW-Beta 
list?

	I havn't subscribed to GDW-Beta before, because from what I could tell 
they only discussed things like new design sequences, updating FF&S, and 
other such gearhead topics. Would character generation rules be appropriate 
there?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:37:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Disasters and Disaster Tri-Vids of the 4

Hi there,

The Commander again, I just had to whip up this bit of wit re: disasters. 
 Here are some ideas based on movies from the 20th century's "Disaster 
Flick" Era (the 1970's).  Upgraded for the Traveller future.

The  Von Hindenburg Disaster.
This large bulbous Vilani Interstellar transport begins to land at the 
starport, when its  Fusion containment is lost and it explodes.  "Oh! the 
Humaniti!"

The Hovering Inferno.
This is a contra grav nobles resort, suddenly every control short circuits 
but the grav control, the nobles are trapped in thier rooms, and fire breaks 
out in the grav vehicle garage, destroying the only way back to the surface. 
The nobles are trapped 100km in the sky with no grav craft. (I actualy like 
this as an adventure! );-{>  <--The devil made me do it!)

The Titan
Another ship flick, this time the ship stears to close to a comet, and 
ruptures its hull.  Life support and fuel soon give out.  This huge noble 
liner, the Titan, was suposedly to be "unrupturable".  Supposedly designed 
using 'new materials and technology'.


The Neptune Adventure
A ship crashlands in the drink of a water world, the people strugle to get 
back to the surface as the ship slowly sinks to the bottom.

of for the commedy aspect:

Gravplane!  A spoof on all the starship disaster flicks, by Imperial Lampoon 
Productions :)

this was just to wierd, I must be REALY board at work :)

This is the Commander
 ROTFLMAO!
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:42:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: FW: antimatter matters

Hey TMLer's  I got this from my roomie.  It regards antimater.  Hope y'all 
enjoy it

And you all thought Shiothony was bad eh?  Read on!

 ----------
From: YaruKaze
To: BPRANKARD
Subject: antimatter matters
Date: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 2:26PM

FROM:    SMTP:YaruKaze@aol.com

TO:      CSI:iiapc/iiapclan/BPRANKARD

SUBJECT: antimatter matters

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 --

April 29, 1997

Enormous Plume of Antimatter Alters View of Milky Way

By MALCOLM W. BROWNE


  WILLIAMSBURG, Va. -- Astrophysicists announced on Monday that they had
discovered what appears to be a monster fountain of antimatter erupting
outward from the core of the Milky Way.

  They said the discovery would compel them to alter their image of the
disk-shaped galaxy. In the revised image, it is as if a burst of steam were
spurting upward from the yolk of a fried egg.

  The discovery, reported at a meeting here, was made using the Compton 
Gamma
Ray Observatory, a satellite launched by the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration six years ago. The four instruments aboard the observatory
detect, measure and record gamma rays: invisible rays that have higher
energies than all other forms of radiation, including X-rays.

  The antimatter was discovered as a result of a series of observations made
by the satellite since last November.

  Antimatter -- a form of matter in which the electrical charge or other
property of each constituent particle is the reverse of that in the usual
matter of our universe -- cannot be directly detected in space. But when
antimatter comes into contact with ordinary matter, the two kinds of matter
instantly annihilate each other, producing gamma rays, which can be detected
by instruments outside Earth's shielding atmosphere.

  The newly discovered plume of antimatter rises some 3,500 light-years 
above
the disk of Earth's galaxy, which is about 100,000 light-years across. But
even if this cloud of antimatter were to reach Earth, the scientists
reassured their audience, it would cause no harm, because the concentration
of antimatter particles in the cloud are extremely diffuse.

  Moreover, only positrons, are believed to be present, not antiprotons or
entire antimatter atoms. Although forms of antimatter other than positrons
have been created by laboratories on Earth, they have never been
unequivocally identified elsewhere.

  (A prevailing theory is that the Big Bang of creation produced
approximately equal amounts of matter and antimatter, which promptly
annihilated each other, but that a small excess of ordinary matter was 
enough
to create the universe as we know it, with very little surviving 
antimatter.)


  Astrophysicists representing the Naval Research Laboratory, Northwestern
University and the University of California at Berkeley, who collaborated in
the discovery announced on Monday, said the cause and the nature of the
antimatter fountain were puzzling. It might be a more or less continuous
shaft of antimatter streaking northward from the galactic center, or it 
might
be a cloud, separated from the main part of the galaxy.

  Dr. Charles Dermer of the Naval Research Laboratory surmised that the
fountain might be a mixture of gas, boiling away from violently dying stars
near the center of the galaxy, and a stream of positrons.

  When positrons (also called positive electrons) collide with ordinary,
negatively charged electrons, they mutually destroy each other and spawn
gamma rays that have a very specific energy: 511,000 electron volts. The
Compton satellite is able to identify the specific energies of the gamma 
rays
it sees, and the "fountain" was seen by tuning the instrument to the
characteristic electron-positron annihilation energy.

  It has long been known that Earth's galaxy looks something like a fried 
egg
with pinwheel spirals. Earth lies in one of these spirals, and as we look up
at the Milky Way on clear nights, we look inward toward the galactic center.
But dust and gas obstruct any light from the galactic center, and so
astronomers depend on other types of radiation to deduce the galaxy's
innermost structure.

  Earlier gamma-ray observations have suggested that there is an enormous
black hole at the center of the galaxy and that as matter is drawn into the
hole, it is so intensely heated that antimatter positrons are formed.

  This would account for some of the bright gamma rays flowing from the
galactic center, but scientists realized that it would not explain the much
larger flow of gamma radiation coming from the Milky Way as a whole. Even
after a relatively small black hole, dubbed the Great Annihilator, was
discovered fairly near the galaxy's center several years ago, there still
seemed to be too few gamma rays to account for all the gamma rays seen by
wide-angle detectors in space.

  The latest discovery, by the six-year-old Compton satellite, could account
for the missing gamma rays.

  Dermer, of the Naval Research Laboratory, described the big feature as "a
fountain of annihilating death from exploding stars." Viewed from Earth's
position within a Milky Way spiral arm, the fountain, some 25,000 
light-years
distant, is about 4,000 light-years across and rises some 3,500 light-years
above the disk.

  Asked why the fountain should rise from only one side of the galaxy and 
not
the other, Dermer compared the galaxy to a pressure cooker, in which rising
pressure "from a boiling cauldron of exploding stars" blew off the lid.

  The results of the latest Compton satellite measurements were kept secret
until Monday, when the research team disclosed that their findings had been
submitted for publication in The Astrophysical Journal. Few scientists not
involved in the study have had time to evaluate the discovery, reported here
in the course of a symposium of more than 200 astrophysicists specializing 
in
gamma ray research.

  Although none of the scientists here questioned the existence of the
"annihilation fountain" suggested by the satellite's measurements, much
debate is expected concerning the origin of the fountain's positrons.

  Positrons can be produced by heated gas as it spirals into black holes, 
but
there are other ways that the positrons in the fountain may have originated.
The explosions of supernovas and white dwarf stars produce positrons, which
can be generated as well in the slow decay of a radioactive isotope of
aluminum created in such explosions.

  While the galactic fountain emits continuous gamma rays, much more elusive
is a class of objects known as gamma ray bursters: points in the sky that
suddenly emit intense gamma rays for a few hours or days and then disappear.
Because bursters are so brief, satellite controllers trying to track them
have trouble aiming at the right point in the sky quickly enough.

  But several European teams reported on Monday that they had found a
lingering afterglow of radiation occurring after the gamma bursts fade out.
These scientists, using an Italian-Dutch spacecraft called Beppo-SAX,
reported that they had recorded a slowly fading X-ray image of a burster,
which opens the way to studying these enigmas over somewhat longer time
periods. Many astrophysicists believe that bursters are very distant events
in which the collision of neutron stars releases almost inconceivable 
energy.


  Many participants in this week's symposium said the universe -- even
Earth's general neighborhood of the Milky Way -- was much more violent than
was believed until a few years ago. Dr. Isabelle Grenier, an astrophysicist
at the Saclay Center of Studies, in France, said nearby stellar explosions
could be common enough that their effects might be detected in the
composition of the polar icecaps.

  In another development, Dr. John Mattox, an astrophysicist at Boston
University, announced the possible discovery of a large planet orbiting a
gamma-ray-emitting neutron star called Geminga. Until recently, Geminga was
known only as a mysterious source of very bright gamma rays. But it is now
known to be a tiny neutron star, the surviving cinder of a supernova
explosion 300,000 years ago.

  Geminga, composed of matter so dense that a piece of it the size of a 
sugar
cube would weigh as much as the whole human race, rotates four times a
second. Mattox measured the arrival times of gamma-ray pulses using data 
from
American and European spacecraft alike, and was able to calculate a slight
anomaly that could be explained by the existence of a planet twice the mass
of Earth orbiting Geminga some 300 million miles from the star.

  Other Places of Interest on the Web

Annihilation Fountain Images , from the Gamma and Cosmic Ray Astrophysics
Branch at the Naval Research Laboratory
<A 
HREF="http://osse-www.nrl.navy.mil/dermer/annih.html">http://osse-www.nrl.n
avy.mil/dermer/annih.html</A>



Copyright 1997 The New York Times

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:54:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

Quoth Leonard Erickson, re: the pusher drive":
> This opens some interesting possibilities. We need to define the limits
> on the drive a bit more. Do you need 100 times the mass to push on?
> 1000? 10k? A million? Each choice affects tactics.

If you allow missiles to "push off" from the ships which launched them,
and at space-combat ranges (!), then you've just blown the rationale for
the 1000-diameter thruster limit (or whatever it is now).

From my archives, here's the math which produced some of the now
"canonical" limits on thruster plates, the rationale for it, and the
implications for how large and how close a mass one needs.  Note that the
"flavor text" I submitted was extensively (and necessarily!) edited, but
the math and arguments still mostly hold.

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Thrusters
To: gdw-beta@qrc.com (GDW-Beta Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:28:36 -0500 (CDT)

Okay, for the help of those trying to picture the universe alongside the tech,
I've dug up some figures and run some math.

It sounds like people want thruster-plate driven vessels to be able to reach,
say, the orbit of Pluto, some 38.5 AU out.  IF thruster-plates are a gravity-
drive, which work by actually pulling at the curved fabric of local space-
time (which is loopy enough that I like it!), presumably they're limited by
that local curvature in their effect.

The Sun produces a gravitational attraction at Pluto's orbit of some 405
nano-Gees (that is, about 405E-9 of the pull at Earth's surface).  For what
it's worth, I thought about using the graviational _gradient_ (dg/dr) instead,
but the figures get fairly absurd: the drop-off near Pluto is about -35
_yotto_-Gees (E-21) per meter, and isolated planets (which I'll talk about
in the next paragraph), can't even produce that sort of gradient except
within a few millimeters of the surface.  The Sun is a big thing!  :-)

So assume we say that gravity-drive technology won't work below a threshold
space-distortion of 400 nG.  An isolated body the size of the Moon would have
a drive-available space around it some 1.1 billion km across.  For the sake
of reference, Marc Miller's description back in JTAS 22 or so of jump-drive
as accurate to "one part in a billion" means you can predict jump break-out
to within 30 million km or so, so Moon-size worldlets make acceptable deep-
space depots with which to rendezvous.  Brown dwarfs of Jupiter's size have a 
drive-available space of a whole 1.2 A.U. radius (180 billion km), or quite 
comfortable.  And the fuel is free there too....

On a philosophical basis, I do _not_ care for the suggestion that even the
gravitation field of the galaxy should be sufficient for thruster plates
to "grab on" to.  Gimmicks are most fun when they have limits as well as
advantages: anything else seems to me to slide towards munchkinism, and to
shy away from good role-playing opportunities and universe-building chrome.
If we establish such a "magical" drive, let's be willing to leave at least
a few problems for our ardent future explorers to face and/or solve.

Here's a quick write-up for thruster plates that could be dropped into the
basic starship rules.  I disclaim copyright, remuneration, laurels and wine
women and song, yadda yadda yadda.  If IG likes it, they can have it:

  "Another effect of the TL12 mastery of gravitics (the science of gravity),
   is the so-called 'gravity drive,' or 'thruster plates.'  Earlier contra-
   grav technology only negates the effects of a gravitational field: thruster
   plates actually use the field itself for propulsion, by 'grabbing on' to
   the curvature of space and running along it much like an ant on the slope
   of a sugar-bowl.  Rather than wasting valuable mass by hurling it out the
   rear of the ship, as lower-tech rockets do, gravity drives use the stellar 
   system itself as their reaction mass (much as a train pushes against its
   track, and the planet below, rather than by expelling exhaust).  A small
   change in a star's momentum translates to a huge velocity change for the
   much smaller spacecraft, though current gravity-drive technology limits 
   available accelerations to about 6G.

   Unlike the ant of the earlier example, however, gravitic-drive ships move
   _more_ easily the steeper the slope becomes (they can 'push' more easily
   deeper in the gravity well), and cannot move at all if local space is flatter 
   than about 400 nanogravities (400 billionths that on the Earth's surface).
   Gravitic-drive ships thus cannot maneuver in deep-space (empty) stellar
   hexes on the star map, though they can remain there while, for example,
   computing jump parameters.

   Another disadvantage of thruster plates is their gravitic signature: any
   other vessel equipped with gravity-wave sensors can easily detect the
   peculiar emissions characteristic of the system.  Normal telescopic
   sensors are approximately as useful: the 'thruster plates' themselves
   require radiative cooling, and the bright blue glow emanating from the
   rear of many a new Imperial vessel is, perhaps, more distinctive than
   the subtle space-warp."

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Maneuvering
To: gdw-beta@qrc.com (GDW-Beta Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:36:23 -0500 (CDT)

Quoth lewis@qrc.com:
> Well the fuel dump itself will provide gravity.  It won't be very much,
> maybe ships manuver slower in a very low gravitation potential. There
> is always some gravitational potential, even in deep space, it comes
> from the galaxy itself.  

Viz. my earlier post about gravitational slope, the gravitational attraction
of a one-million-ton (mass, not displacement) deep-space station would be
above that of the Sun for Pluto out to only a 130 meter radius, which is far
below the accuracy available for jump break-out.  I'm not even going to try
to calculate the galaxy's effect.

So we'd need to a) allow for vastly decreased performance in "flat" areas of
space, b) assume standard maneuvering thrusters are sufficient for very rare
and slow deep-space maneuvers, or c) allow that it's a problem inherent in the
universe (which isn't always kind) and that at least some military vessels
have dual drives.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1273
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1274



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Some questions...
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Imperial Sports
Re: [T97#1263] Imperium does not claim worlds?
Griffen SDB
RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Imperial Army?
RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Re: The Imperial Army
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Nukes for Sale
Re: Space Ace of Aces
Gravitic Focusing
JTAS 26
Re: Sensors and their Operators
Re: JTAS 26
Re: Starship Combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 97 16:19:38 EDT
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Some questions...

	Hail and greetings,
	Just some questions for the list.

	1). In EA, at TL12, they list the gauss rifle but it weighs over 40kg. Is
this a typo? Do you need battledress or strength enhancement to use it?

	2). Can asteroids still be used as hulls for star/spaceships? Will this
be covered in FF&S?
	
	3). Is IRIS going to be covered? (God, how I hope so...)

	Thanks for any answers given.

	Reguards,

	Jeff Norton

	Life is a minefield... 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:38:40 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

Brett Fishburne wrote:

> Energy transitions are always inefficient, right?  If this is so, then there
> has to be a huge influx of energy at the gravity plate to 1) capture the
> gravitons, 2) reverse their direction, and 3) increase their energy.  Even
> with lasar battaries, where does all this energy come from and why is it
> more efficiently used in capturing gravitons than, say, standard combustion?

	I figure that's part of the handwaving bit; energy from an 
appropriate source is used to generate a field with these effects,. 
Don't ask me how; I don't actually have a Physics skill. I'm wokinh off 
of Jack-of-all-Trades 2 here :-/.
 
> Gravitons, if we buy that they exist as distinct entities, would have
> incredibly small mass requiring that the plates be unbelievably dense if
> they are attempting to capture them.  This is inconsistent with the use of
> these plates for moving "small" objects (like tanks).

	Like I said, I envisioned it more of a field generating unit
 than anything else. 
 
> Stretching my physics background, I understand gravity to work by
> "stretching" the fabric of space and creating "wells" which draw surrounding
> material in.  Perhaps a Thuster plate creates a "mountain" behind the
> spacecraft which pushes material away.  This mountain would be small to
> limit the effect on other objects in the immediate vicinity of the craft,
> but would create a space-time ripple which would push the spaceship like the
> bow wave on a boat pushes a dolphin.  The mountain could be created by
> generating a gravitational field with the opposite polarity of the field
> created by the local star.  When the two interact, the force of the star's
> field pushes the mountain away, and, thus, accelerates the spacecraft.
> 
> I would guess that this type of field would need to be generated through
> some sort of side effect.  Like the way a magnetic field is generated when
> electricity is run through a coil.  Using this technique for magnetism, we
> have been able to create very light weight, very strong magnets which start
> and stop on command.  Perhaps some 4D interaction of electricity and
> magnetism would have the effect of generating directed gravitational fields
> and include some side effects like gamma rays which we see from pulsars.
> 
> Just a thought.

	And a damn fine one, at that. I was thinking along similar 
lines, but always thought of gravity being carried on gravitons. Just a 
conceptual difference. One could conjecture that this field worked in a 
manner similar to the original idea I had: reverse the existing field, 
and amplify it.

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:10:32 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Imperial Sports

Dave Golden write:
>I wanna compete in the Terra's Cup solar sail races! 

  Mitch (ted7) Schwartz designed a solar sail racing ship using FF&S.
I don't remember if it was posted to the TML or not.  You may want to
check the GDW-Beta archives


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"For the quickest descent into the ethical quagmire, the Clinton 
 administration has set a new indoor record." 
         (Howard Kurtz column, The Washington Post, 3/26/95)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 17:38:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1263] Imperium does not claim worlds?

maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard) wrote...

T::>I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space =
 ::>between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles =
 ::>on up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants =
 ::>if it owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its =
 ::>prime had over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium =
 ::>only claimed the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to =
 ::>tax .... So on and so on ...

 No, the Imperium never claimed this; you've missed a nuance:
 The Imperium does not claim _rulership_over_its_member_worlds_;
 merely over the space between them.  Within the limits of the
 member systems, those systems have sovereignty, save only with
 respect to certain aspects of Imperial Law (such as the slavery
 and piracy constraints).  Just like the United States can
 purchase and dispose of land in any of the several states, so
 can the Imperium on any of its member planets.

 Also, I tend to believe that many of the enfeoffments that the
 Imperium grants (your grants of land above) aren't really for
 ownership of the land - merely an empowerment to administer
 those lands to the extent that the Imperium requires (e.g.,
 piracy and slavery prevention) and a delegation of authority to
 collect and forward taxes, with a "cut" for the enfeoffed noble.

T::>I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while =
 ::>member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they =
 ::>are still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member =
 ::>world, still has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the =
 ::>Imperium.=20

 This is a little too far in the other direction.  I think that
 the best model to use as a parallel from present-day Earth
 would be somewhere between the Canadian model of Federalism and
 the British Commonwealth of Nations.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  "Spock, I thought you were dead?" "No sir I Rebooted"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 18:21:42 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Griffen SDB

Chris GRIFFEN wrote:
>I just wanted to say that I think this is an excellent name for a starship
>class! ;-)
I guess its because I have been seeing your name on the TNE-RCES list
so much. It just stuck in my head.:)

>Just know that the "en" spelling is the Welsh variant.
Well I am partly Welsh, so that's okay.

>The more common
>"griffon" and "griffin" are the more recognized spellings for the mythical
>lion/eagle hybrid.

There is also Gryphon, which is not very common, but  you will see it.

I did have to decide out how to spell the name,  for a while I was
leaning towards the Gryphon spelling but for some reason, which escapes
me I went with Griffen.  

Because the standard SDB is the Dragon, and one of the RC's variants of
the Dragon was the Manticore, I decided to keep with the theme.  I am
making another SDB up, and I have not figured its name out yet. Maybe 
Gorgon, Gargoyle, Medusa or Chimera. 

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did the baby porcupine say when it backed into a cactus?
A:Is that you Mommy?     

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:21:41 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

At 01:15 AM 4/29/97 +0000, Garry wrote:

<My brillant speculation snipped>

>Which I have no basic disagreement with. The question I have is what is the
>Imperial Policy about recruitment and stationing. Are units stationed on the
>worlds where they are raised?

Since it is a local unit until called upon, it would stay on it's homeworld
until called on to embark for training or war.

 If a given world has internal conflicts that
>degenerate into armed disputes, does the Imperium expect the troopers in the
>army units to fire on their own families?

Once again, the units are under the control of the planetary government.  If
however, the Subsector Marshall orders the 38th Hillhaven Rifles to restore
order, and they refuse, that is mutiny, and you will see the Marines show up.

Remember, Imperial intervention has a definate "tripwire."  Conflicts
involving NBC weapons, conflicts that threaten to spread to other worlds,
conflicts instigated by other worlds, or direct rebellion against the
Imperium are the only situation where you would see the Imperial Army
mobilize without a request from the planet's Noble or government.

 Or does the Imperium have a policy
>that, when a given member world degenerates into armed conflict that the
>Imperial Army units raised on that world will sit quietly in garrison while
>the Marines blast cousin Clem and Uncle Ralph into ash? Or does the Imperium
>simply raise troops on one world, ship them off to another and so that local
>conflicts do not boil over into the Imperial Army?

It would be harder to have have the troops stuck in garrison, hearing rumors
of civil strife, and not being able to do anything.  Even if they are tasked
with simply keeping food moving into the cities, the can help.  You will get
desertions, and brawls between supporters of different factions, but that is
a matter for organic military justice.

>I agree that to hold ground, you need the classic grunt, either with spear
>and shield or ABD and PGMP. I wonder if the Imperium really considers
>holding any given mud ball that important. As long as you can refuel and
>jump on; why should any world be occupied?

Well, food is nice to have.. Also, we need room to walk around, breathe a
little.  Never underestimate the need for victory.  We could have stopped at
the edge of the Rhine in 1945.  Germany was beaten, Hitler was insane.. A
few more weeks and doenitz might have surrendered on his own initative.  Why
risk thousands of lives by pressing the attack?  Revenge.  We wanted to put
our boot prints all over Germany.

Or, as a Desert Storm veteran put it to me:  "After six months in that damn
desert with no booze, we weren't going home until we killed someone."

 As many on this list ask back
>when Independence Day came out, why would anyone by pass the Gas Giants and
>the asteriod belt to fight over one planet? Why does the Imperium need to
>'occupy' any given world if it has access to the rest of that star's
>planetary system?

To prove that they won.  also, the economic center of the system will be the
mainworld, and everything is about econmics.. especially war.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:21:38 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Army?

At 11:37 AM 4/29/97 +0100, Nick Munn wrote:

>CT's Spinward Marches Campaign includes much description of the Duke 
>of Regina's Own Huscarles, a lift cavalry regiment.  It explicitly 
>states that it is an Imperial-sanctioned, non-Imperial unit raised on 
>Regina and with a cadre of seconded Imperial marines.  On the 
>outbreak of the 4FW (or was it the 5FW?) they were "imperialised" 
>i.e. taken into official Imperial service.

Wealthy nobles would certainly raise private forces.  There has never been a
noble in any society who wasn't paranoid about his security.  The 4518th
Lift Infantry was special, since Duke Norris had no qualms about letting the
Imperium use "his" troops, first on Efate, later during the 5FW.

>This is not portrayed as the only way in which the Imperium raises 
>ground troops, but it seems to be *a* way.  I would certainly expect 
>the bulk of Imperial troop strength to be marines.

No, the Marines are a relatively small force that is lavishly equipped and
superbly trained.  The Marine mission during wartime is to spearhead
planetary invasions.  They don't have the heavy equipment (armor, artillery,
etc.) to effectivly garrison a planet.  The Marine advantage in the classic
era was that they *all* had battle dress and plasma weapons.. they were far
better equipped than their opponents.  They are however, limited by their
BD's endurance (~100hrs), and their own light nature.

In my plan, each numbered Imperial Fleet has 3 Marine Regiments (w/3000 men
each) assigned to it.  This gives about 10,000 Marines per subsector.

>Perhaps we can divide them into Fleet, Garrison and Line Marines, and 
>admit that Jerry Pournelle influenced CT quite a lot...

See my previous post on the three year rotation that the Regiments go through.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:21:46 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

At 11:00 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Subsector troops are used at the discretion of the Imperial Barons and Dukes.

I see the role of the nobility akin to the civilian leadership of the US
military:  The Baron says "go do something about that revolt." and the
Subsector General Staff put together the "package" of Navy, Marine, and Army
assets needed to acomplish the mission with what we military types call
"maximum economy of force" (biggest bangs for the credit.)

  I think these form the bulk of Imperial military forces, as the local
command and control appears to form at the subsector level. 

Since every subsector faces a completely different strategic picture
(compare Jewell and Lunion sometime.. pop, TL, astrography, opposing
forces..) the subsector is the highest peace-time *operational* command.
The subsector is where the manpower needs are determined, equipment is
procured, and strategic goals are set.  Some central subsectors have Paper
Tiger commands.. they haven't had need of a real call up in centuries.

Take Lunion for example.  A total pop of around 20 billion, mostly on
Strouden and Lunion.  If .1% of the population is in the military, that
gives us 20 MILLION troops.  Taking the top 10% for Imperial operations
gives us 2 million, or approx. 800 regiments.  The only problem is going to
shipping these guys where they're needed!  Since close the 90% of the
regiments will be raised on two worlds, it makes sense to garrison the
worlds closest to the Sword Worlds border with these units, and allow the
other top regiments to remain at home.

> If a conflict were to embroil a soldiers home world, I can see provisions
>for removing a trooper from certain positions (more from a security point
of >view than any consideration to the individual soldier), but I also see
where >that soldiers intimate knowledge of the planet and/or situation would
be >invaluble.

If you take the first course, you might as well discharge him.  You've
destroyed his morale.  Ask me how I felt about the United States
immeadiately after my removal from the Army.  You either trust him, or you
don't.  It's risky, but it pays off.

>Sector troops would actually be the Headquarters Units.  These are the
officers and NCOs that are expected to drop into place in the event of a
major mobilization.  Theoretically, this enables troops from two planets
that may be having, um..., intense relations to fight side by side.  The
equipment supplied by the Sector command and control elements would allow
troops with "non-standard" gear to operate together.  While in a perfect
world, these would be extremely competent and experienced troops, I tend to
see this as the haven of the Imperial nobility.

The Sector command is concerned with the long view.  They plan for the next
century in terms of what's going to be needed, and how to get there.

You *cannot* drop in a new command structure at the drop of a hat.  Command
is a thing built on trust.  That trust is built up during training, and
through the contact (at all levels) of daily military life.  The "Sector
Weenies" would probably be mostly staff.. acting as liasons between
subsector armies, coordinating supply, etc.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:07:53 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure that a nuclear bomb would make mining that much easier.
> Think of the losses involved in the vaporized material, not to mention the
> material that is rendered unusable from the radiation.  Instead of nukes
> to split asteroids, how about Meson guns?  The stresses caused by the
> internal explosions should allow a careful operator to peel asteroids like
> onions.

Meson guns are still a source of dangerous radiation, though.

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:07:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:15:10 -0600, you wrote:

> 	Sure. In fact, I'm assuming that's how they get fusion reactors to work at
> lower temperatures/pressures. If you're meddling with the nuclear forces,
> you can make the hydrogen nuclei a bit more likely to "stick" together, and
> won't NEED to bang them together as hard using temp/pressure.

This answers my question.  Now, when my players ask me (eventually),
I'll be able to explain it to them without using the baseball bat :)


James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:07:50 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:21:32 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> Stretching my physics background, I understand gravity to work by
> "stretching" the fabric of space and creating "wells" which draw surrounding
> material in.  Perhaps a Thuster plate creates a "mountain" behind the
> spacecraft which pushes material away.  This mountain would be small to
> limit the effect on other objects in the immediate vicinity of the craft,
> but would create a space-time ripple which would push the spaceship like the
> bow wave on a boat pushes a dolphin.  The mountain could be created by
> generating a gravitational field with the opposite polarity of the field
> created by the local star.  When the two interact, the force of the star's
> field pushes the mountain away, and, thus, accelerates the spacecraft.
> 
> I would guess that this type of field would need to be generated through
> some sort of side effect.  Like the way a magnetic field is generated when
> electricity is run through a coil.  Using this technique for magnetism, we
> have been able to create very light weight, very strong magnets which start
> and stop on command.  Perhaps some 4D interaction of electricity and
> magnetism would have the effect of generating directed gravitational fields
> and include some side effects like gamma rays which we see from pulsars.

I kinda like this idea-- very easy to visualize (which is half the
problem sometimes when explaining technobabble).

After all, doesn't the current TML handwaving for gravitic laser
focusing mention something about a gravity pulse travelling down the
beam towards the target to maintain the coherency of the beam?  If so,
we already HAVE extremely precise methods of manipulating gravity
fields at range so it isn't as far of a stretch...

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:16:38 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Army

At 09:58 29/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>The answer depends on your Mileu of choice, I think.  In the Classic
>Traveller, 1100 era, I strongly beleive the Imperial Army (as such) does
>not exist, except when mobilized from member worlds.  The actual Imperial
>Army in peacetime" consists of Corps and Army level headquarters and
>support units, which are then filled out with subordinate units activated
>from the member worlds.  These formations are then sent wherever needed;
>they might have been activated to put down riots on their home world
>(unlikely, unless this rioting somehow threatens Imperial perogatives), or
>they might be loaded into naval transports and shipped off to fight the
>evil mind-rippers or to garrison a planet hard-hit by Vargr raids.  My
>reasoning behind this is simple economics; the Imperium in 1100 is too big
>to afford or to adequately manage a largely underemployed full-time army
>AND a huge navy/marine force structure.

I agree with you about the army, however I don't think it's about not being
able to afford it, so much as the unpopularity that the increased taxation
and in obvious Imperial presence would bring. Incidentaly IMO the Imperial
Navy/Marine force isn't very big, given the size and wealth of the Imperium.

>As for this, the question is really "Why did the Imperium (or whoever)
>attack at all?"  If you just want to inderdict a world, controlling the
>rest of the system does not prevent the inhabitants of the target planet
>from launching (or even receiving) starships.  Laying seige to the target
>planet, due to the volume of space involved, requires a HUGE fleet to give
>even a 90% guarantee that the planet will not be sending or receiving
>ships.  Its cheaper in terms of time and resources to invade and conquer
>the planet, and garrison it with inexpensive ground troops, than it is to
>surround the planet with an expensive fleet for an extended period of time.

Not really, all you need are a large number of sentinal satelites
programmed to blow away any ship that leaves the atmosphere without giving
the right ID string. Besides even garrison troops are expensive, let alone
the cost of suppling then during the actual invasion.

>If you want to conquer the world, you have to land and take it.  If you
>want to prevent the world from communicating with other worlds, you need to
>lay a wastefully expensive and potentially ineffective siege, or land and
>take the world (or bomb it into the stone age).  Economics and harsh
>reality mean that the groundpounder is just as needed in Mileu 0 or Mileu
>1100.

You only need to invade if you need the world's resources Right Now. If you
can wait then just blockade. Blockades have the advantage that none of your
guys get killed, which is always good for you polical career.

>Steve Charlton

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:16:38 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

>
>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:09:22 +1000 (EST)
>From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
>Subject: re: Flood of the Millennium
>
>What sort of disaster could threaten a TL-C + world?
>
>What about an artificially intelligent computer virus that infects
>starship transponders?

Brilliant! Both for humour value and for actual damage value. In fact, a
computer virus run amok could be both entertaining and dangerous on a
planetary computer network - just don't let it mess up your campaign totally
by going interstellar...

- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:21:48 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Nukes for Sale

>Craig Berry wrote:
>>
>> I've done a lot of thinking on this; baby nukes are just too useful in
>> asteroid mining to be outlawed entirely, but obviously you'd want to keep
>> them under *very* tight control.  Here are the guidelines I came up with:


<< a whole lot of interesting ideas snipped >>

>> Together, these prevent most uses of mining bombs for terrorist purposes.
>> Comments, anyone?

You forgot one safety option:

(n+1): The bomb casing is doped with a particular combination of metal
tracers. This makes it possible to tell from the residue which bomb went off
in the event it is stolen.

A group of terrorist with enough chutzpah will manage to steal and detonate
a nuke. Even a "safe" nuke can provide quite the moment of inertia to a rock
in space or a ship in orbit...

- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:26:47 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Space Ace of Aces

>>I've often wondered if it'd be possible to come up with a "book combat"
>>type system (like "Ace of Aces") for Traveller small ship actions. That
>>is, each ship has a "book". You start out at one of several pages
>>depending on the situation at the start of combat. Each of you chooses
>>from one of the manuevers listed as possible on that page, and you both
>>go to the resulting page, which gives a view of the now current
>>situation, and you keep going like this until you escape, get killed,
>>or get a kill.

The biggest problem with this is trying to get the vector-based maneuvers
into book form. I sat down with paper, time and a lot of head-banging and
decoded the Ace of Aces books, from pages 1 to 223. Dirty little secret -
the game is designed on HEXES, not squares.

I was actually thinking of this as an option, but I am trying to figure out
how to do the vector stuff so that it makes sense in physical (ie physics)
terms...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:55:29 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Gravitic Focusing

At 00:07 30/04/97 GMT, James W. Lindsay wrote:

>After all, doesn't the current TML handwaving for gravitic laser
>focusing mention something about a gravity pulse travelling down the
>beam towards the target to maintain the coherency of the beam?  If so,
>we already HAVE extremely precise methods of manipulating gravity
>fields at range so it isn't as far of a stretch...

I thought gravitic laser focusing would work by bending the beam like a
Black Hole does. A strong point source in the lens system should work,
though I suspect you'd also need a lot of damping aroud it to stop the
'lens' wrecking the ship. Maybe that's why high TL lasers in FF&S are no
more efficient than lower TL's - they need more damping to counter their
more powerful lenses.

>James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:47:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: JTAS 26

Hey, "Answerman" Joe--what's the word on JTAS 26? The web site shows it
coming out in March 97 ... it's now (almost) May. Inquiring
minds/subscribers wanna know...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 22:21:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Sensors and their Operators

On 04/28/97 at 07:35 AM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> >My initial reaction is to say:  Skill + Attribute + Automatic Range,

> Very good question that about what sensor ops do and they same could be
> asked about astrogators. But the above <Skill + Attribute + Automatic
> Range> is totally unacceptable! With the sensor has range 0.00000 the
> attribute would still give 6 hexes (huh). Skill increase should always be
> multipliers to range or adds to logaritmized sensor factor (adding logs
> is the smae as multiplying). 

Anders, I thought about multiplying but I couldn't get the numbers to scale
out the way I wanted.  If you use integers time asset you get a very coarse
scale:  1*14+14; 2*14=28; etc.  Ranges can go up very quickly too.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:29:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS 26

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> Hey, "Answerman" Joe--what's the word on JTAS 26? The web site shows it
> coming out in March 97 ... it's now (almost) May. Inquiring
> minds/subscribers wanna know...

What, you didn't get your copy?  I got mine months ago.  Oh, right, it's 
only available to those of us who have the new and improved Computer by 
the Foot (tm), as it's distributed in a format readable only by the CbtF 
proprietary FootWrite Desk Accessory. <grin>

Actually, I dunno what's happened on the JTAS front.  Last I heard, which 
was a few weeks ago, they had everything ready to go but the art.  I'll 
ask Tim on Wednesday and let everyone know what I find out.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:59:02 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

Earlier I posted:

>This is not true of square grids; if you draw two lines at 90 degrees
>to each other and count the squares they pass through there will be more
>squares orthogonally than diagonally.

D'oh! I meant 45 degrees, of course.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1274
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1275



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Mining Nukes
Re: JTAS 26
RE: Flood of the millenia
re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Guns to the Confederacy -- *TWO* *SEPARATE* *STORIES*
Re: Imperial recruitment practices
Since Joe is taking questions .....
The Non-Arbitrary 3?
Frontier Traders
Re: FW: antimatter matters
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: April THUDDD Results
Pan-Imperia Announces Surplus Ships!
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: Flood of the millenia
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Flood of the millenia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:58:58 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Mining Nukes

>Together, these prevent most uses of mining bombs for terrorist purposes.
>Comments, anyone?

Well done Craig. In fact, if you omit rule #5 (radio warning of impending
detonation), the same rules make nuke-pumped X-ray laser missiles legal and
effective for civilian ships. The override signals in rule #7 are
encrypted, of course, so your enemy can't deactivate the missiles you fire
at him unless your enemy is a Imperial ship.

I tell ya, stuff like this is why I subscribe to the TML.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:59:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS 26

Quoth David J. Golden:
> Hey, "Answerman" Joe--what's the word on JTAS 26?

While we're at it, what in the world is the story with "Citizens of the
Imperium"?  The web site has been promising more details ever since "late
January"....

And has anyone else been receiving the formerly-bimonthly Web newsletters?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:56:12 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Flood of the millenia

At 07:52 PM 28/04/97 -0500, you wrote:

>    I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters 
>might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados, 
>etc. are out of the question.
>
>    But what kind of disaster can threaten a modern, TL-C world? And as a 
>bonus, seems really sfi-fiish, yet realistic. I can't count how many times 
>Star Trek has used ion storms, or gravimetric waves, or whatever. What 
>among these would really happen? What can I maliciously threaten my players 
>with?

Read the "HOT ZONE", and have a disease based on Ebola (I tried this, but
as soon as the players realised what was going on, they **ran**, fast.)


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:59:36 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: re: Flood of the Millennium

At 08:09 PM 29/04/97 +1000, you wrote:
>What sort of disaster could threaten a TL-C + world? 
>
>What about an artificially intelligent computer virus that infects 
>starship transponders? 

ROTFL :)

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 23:30:14 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Guns to the Confederacy -- *TWO* *SEPARATE* *STORIES*

On 04/28/97 at 05:06 PM,  fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain) said:

> There are *two* separate stories ya'll have been discussing:

> 1) Turtledove's "Guns of the South," where th Civil War takes up only the
> first *third* of the book!  South Africaaners bring *AK-47s* to Gen. Lee. 


> 2) A short story (whose title and author I can't remember).  A racist
> bigot brings *Sten guns* to the Confederacy.  

There have been several more stories with the same basic plot.  In fact, I
remember a Dr Who Book-RPG with a similar story line.  ;-> For Americans, a
time-branch change at the civil war has always been very intriguing.

Let's take Traveller's projected timeline...where are the *big* breaks that
could lead to interesting alternative timelines?  I'll start...

The aborted attempt to form the Third Imperium.

There is no Cleon I, he fails in his attempt to take the reigns of power
and Sylea remains a Federation.  A wave of isolation sweeps Sylea and other
pocket empires, confederations, and federations fill the void Sylea would
have filled leading to a future with dozens of competing states.

Anybody want to run with this one? ;->


Eris
ps.  When and where is DragonCon? 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 23:40:37 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Imperial recruitment practices

On 04/28/97 at 02:20 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

> "Stripes".. "We're Americans! Our ancestors were kicked out of every
> civilised country on Earth.. We're the United States Army.. we're 11-1!"

Ah hell!  We're, 15 and 0...with 1 war called on account of the coach
making us go home at halftime. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:43:39 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: Since Joe is taking questions .....

What's up with the release schedule? I ordered DT4 along with the Internet pre order thing ..... and now we are months behind.


Steven E. Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:52:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: The Non-Arbitrary 3?

One of the comments that I occasionally get with regard to KBv2.0 is 
the question, "Where does the 3 come from when you calculate 
experience for KBv2.0," or the mention that, "I don't like the 
arbitrary 3."  

I'd like to address that by saying that the 3 used to calculate 
experience is not arbitrary at all.



What I'm talking about:

              KBv2.0 target number = attribute + experience

              Experience = Skill x 3



This design is intended to increase the value of a skill and put it 
on par with attribute levels.

I use these definitions:

The Attribute Score gauges the character's natural ability with 
regard to a specific characteristic.

The Skill Level gauges the character's ability with regard to a 
specific skill.

Skills cover specific areas of interest where as attributes can be 
applied to many different situations.



In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that, under KBv2.0, a skill level 
is roughly equivalent to 3 levels of a character's natural ability.

So, a Skill-1 reflects about the same amount of expertise as does a 
Dex-3.

We can test this.  The attribute score considered to be human average 
is 7.  The average ability skill level is 2.

Under KBv2.0, the character's experience in this skill is 6, and 6 is 
just about equal to 7.

Also, the maximum attribute score a human can have is 15.  Skill-5 is 
a very high skill level--and very hard to obtain.

Under KBv2.0, these two numbers are the same:  Attribute-15;  
Experience-15.

When you get above skill level 5, it is like having an ability higher 
than 15.

I've been looking at Carlos' MT variant task system lately, and I 
noticed that he came up with the same relationship--except, instead 
of increasing the skill level by 3, he is decreasing the attribute by 
3.  Either way, you end up with a 3:1 ratio.



This has just been a thought that occured to me lately, and I thought 
I would post it for any who are interested.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 23:50:24 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Frontier Traders

On 04/28/97 at 08:14 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott
<rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> said:

>    My take on these "Frontier Traders" (a term which I shamelessly ripped
> off from Ross Coburn) is that they'd be in the 300-500 Td range (numerous
> smaller and cheaper vessels will cover more ground than one big expensive
> one, or will be easier for little trading ops to afford), pack some
> respectable firepower, have wilderness refuelling capability (duh),
> reasonable armour, good acceleration, and J2 as an absolute minimum.

I think 300-500 is a *little*too small, I think.  I'm looking (for my game
in progress and one coming up) at 600-900 tons.

>    I've come up with some financing ideas:

How about inheriting an interest in the ship from your long lost uncle? ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:26:05 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: FW: antimatter matters

> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:42:00 -0400
> From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
> Subject: FW: antimatter matters

> Enormous Plume of Antimatter Alters View of Milky Way
> 
> By MALCOLM W. BROWNE
> 
>   WILLIAMSBURG, Va. -- Astrophysicists announced on Monday that they had
> discovered what appears to be a monster fountain of antimatter erupting
> outward from the core of the Milky Way.
> 
>   They said the discovery would compel them to alter their image of the
> disk-shaped galaxy. In the revised image, it is as if a burst of steam were
> spurting upward from the yolk of a fried egg.


I believe we have just uncovered the reason for the Zhodani core
expeditions.  Obviously Grandfather forgot to turn off his TL 35 matter
/ antimatter converter 300,000 years ago the last time he was at the
core of the galaxy.  He is too busy doing _important_stuff to go turn it
off himself & it is shielded from alteration by robots.  So he jimmied
up a psionic artifact that would prompt the Zhodani to go to the core of
the galaxy & turn it off. :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:33:13 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:55:29 +1200, you wrote:

> At 00:07 30/04/97 GMT, James W. Lindsay wrote:
> 
> >After all, doesn't the current TML handwaving for gravitic laser
> >focusing mention something about a gravity pulse travelling down the
> >beam towards the target to maintain the coherency of the beam?  If so,
> >we already HAVE extremely precise methods of manipulating gravity
> >fields at range so it isn't as far of a stretch...
> 
> I thought gravitic laser focusing would work by bending the beam like a
> Black Hole does. A strong point source in the lens system should work,
> though I suspect you'd also need a lot of damping aroud it to stop the
> 'lens' wrecking the ship. Maybe that's why high TL lasers in FF&S are no
> more efficient than lower TL's - they need more damping to counter their
> more powerful lenses.

I believe your idea was the original one at one point, but the
gearheads on the list determined that it wouldn't be all that more
accurate (or something).  Hence the gravity pulse idea that travels
with the laser pulse, maintaining its coherence.  I could be wrong,
however.

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:46:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: April THUDDD Results

  Well, as for the Generica design being purchased, please be assured that
I have no illusions about procurement on the basis of technical merit.
You did notice the smiley face, didn't you? :-)

  For a good example of how non-technical factors effect engineering
design in the spacecraft industry, check out my Masters thesis, "A History
of the Design Of Orbital Docking Mechanisms, 1956-1985," University of
Houston, 1987.  In the chapter on the selection of the docking mechanism
design for the Apollo Command Module - LEM link, I make clear how the
opinions of North American Aviation engineers and NASA contract
supervisors had far more to do with the final selection than technical
merit.  There is a wonderful 27 page report that justifies the final
decision - wallpaper, according to the engineers who worked on the
project. 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:37:28 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Pan-Imperia Announces Surplus Ships!

A GNN Corporate News Report

        Pan-Imperia Announces Sale of Older Fleet

(Ase, CORE) With the first of the PICH-1/2 "Guppy Class"
Far Traders having proved their spaceworthiness and 
profitability over the last 6 months, Pan-Imperia Shipyards
has announced plans to begin selling off the older ACCH 
"Long John" Class Cargo Haulers.

"With 4 Guppies currently in use showing their ability to be
run profitably and reliably, we have decided that now is a 
great time to offer up these classic ships at bargain prices!"
stated Darius Sadri, President of Pan-Imperia Shipyards and
Servicing and a board member of ValuJump Lines. "The 
Long John Cargo Hauler was the best ship ever to come
out of the AseCon Shipyards when they were in operation, 
and the ships have served ValuJump very well over the years.
Now, we wish to make these ships available to the up and
coming traders who wish to try their fortunes in these 
exciting times of expansion and speculation! No longer must
they stand on the sidelines as the established companies 
lord it about the spacelanes with all their expensive high-
tech toys. We believe that by offering up these valuble
ships to those who don't need the bleeding edge, we are 
continuing the fine tradition of opening the spacelanes to
everyone that was the battle cry that led to the formation of
Pan-Imperia."

When asked if ValuJump was merely dumping old and obsolete
ships from its roster, Sadri angrily snapped "Rediculous! These
ships are as spaceworthy as the day they were first laid down.
The fact that ValuJump is still using nearly a dozen in its fleet 
at this moment should prove our trust and faith in the design. Not
one of these ships is over 40 years old. It's simply not cost effective
as a company to retain these ships as our own Guppy traders 
come out of the yards. As each Guppy is put into service, a Long
John will become available, no ulterior motives there. If you 
feel you have to find a story, ask our Emperor and his ISBA why
they felt the need to mandate an Imperium-wide freeze on cargo
prices at  1000 Cr? What was wrong with the 4000 Cr  price that
was common along the Sylean Main? What's wrong with 
allowing whatever the market will bear? Yet another example
of the ISBA having a mandate to run roughshod over the free
business owners of this sector under the much touted guise
of 'Economics Over All'. We are just doing our part to bring 
equality back into the equation. These ships are economical
enough that even if they were bought new today, they would be
able to pull in enough profit to make monthly payments, even under
the accursed 1000 Cr ceiling. At the prices we're offering them, 
money should be no problem."

*****************************************
ACCH "Long John" Cargo Hauler, AseCon Shipyards (defunct)
Designed with QSDS 1.5

Tons: 500 Std (Slab S)    Volume: 7000 m^3    Cost: 96.86 MCr (new)
Crew: 7                High/Mid Pass: 0          Low: 0
Cargo: 255 Std             Controls: TL 11 Civ      TL: 11

8 Size                               01 Jump Drive (50 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                          01 Maneuver (HEPlaR, 280 Mw, 20
hours fuel)
                                          01 Power Plant (1x 500 Mw)
                                          155.4 Fuel (Scoop 200, Refine 3)
                                          A0 P2 J0 Sensors
                                          20 Armor, 16 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Command, 2 Sensors, 1 Engineer, 1 Steward, 1 Pilot,
                1 Astrogator

Notes: The Long John is typical of the type of small cargo hauler one
might find doing business along the Sylean Main or another string of
Jump 1 planets. The fact it is only capable of Jump 1 as well as its 
totally unarmed state reflect its role as a traveller among the settled, 
more secure planets where Navy or local defense forces have a strong
presence. It is entirely equipped with TL 11 equipment. The command
crew member has a large stateroom, and small staterooms are standard
for the rest of the crew. No passengers are normally carried if a full
ship's complement is onboard, and any passengers that might take an
empty stateroom (allowing for a crew member "doubling up" on jobs)
would find a working ship without the amenities they might expect on
a liner.

The price of the Long John is based on what a new ship would cost, and
takes into account the 25% QSDS discount. I imagine these would still
be in production in many places that haven't yet been blessed with the
upgraded technology of the Imperium. If using the scenario of a shipline
selling off its older fleet elements, I would imagine the price would 
range from 33-75% of new, depending on age and condition. YMMV.

In figuring the monthly costs of this ship, I assumed Electronics personel
made 5000 Cr/month, Stewards made 3000 Cr, and Command made
10,000 Cr. If the list has decided upon a different standard for pay, my 
employees would appreciate your reply :)

New, this ship would cost 19.37 MCr down with a monthly payment of
403,591 Cr. Salaries would eat 38,000 Cr a month, and fuel/life support/
monthly maintenance/etc. would give a grand total of 508,742 Cr  per
month in expenses. With 2 full loads a month, this ship will bring in 
510,000 Cr, without speculation. This assumes the crew salaries given
above, and that no crew member is doubling up on any jobs; with multi-
role crew members, profits could be better. I use the assumptions that 
a) outside of the Imperium, prices are not as artificially low, b) prices 
were a good deal higher before the 3I, making these a better bargain
when new, and c) at used ship prices, the monthly payments are sub-
stantially lower. The reason this ship is so "basic" is that I wanted to see
if a lower tech ship could still break even in the 3I, my next design will
be based on assumption b above. I am very interested in these old "386"
and "486" designs <g> that are filling up the spacelanes, and I hope y'all
are too.

Comments much appreciated.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:50:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

>> (8) Just before detonation, the bomb must receive a final 'go' signal
>>     by radio to confirm detonation.  This helps foil attempts to shield
>>     the signals in (5) and (7).

<snip>

> On other problem with (8), if the legal owner is going to blow an
> asteroid with very high metal content that metal might shield the bomb
> from the signal.

No, you place it at one of the poles. and stand out in line with that
pole, but *well* away from the asteroid.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 05:08:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

In mail you write:

>    b) One aspect of these "pushing" type drives is that they must also
>    be "pulling" type drives.  What this may mean is that while pushing
>    against a grav field, you may in fact be putting energy into it, then
>    when you slow down, or "pull" during your deceleration, you can get
>    that same energy out of it.  Your M-drive uses energy during
>    acceleration, and produces energy during deceleration.  A real-world
>    analogy is an electric car that uses generators in its wheels for
>    braking --- braking the car recharges its batteries.

And dealing with that incoming energy is a *bitch*. Someone once built
some buses that used regenerative braking, but since they weren't
electric, they had to dump the generated power into a *huge* resistor
(a cast iron grid mounted under the bus). After having to dig a few
buses out of buildings at the bottom of steep hils, and extract the
molten iron grid from the street, this idea died a deserved death. :-)

For starships, it gets even worse!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:23:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

>> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:10:19 -0700
>> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
>> 
>> I am planning on running a campaign based on relativly-lo tech asteroid 
>> mining (TL8-9 with some imported TL11-12 equipment), and I'd like one of 
>> the more astromomically-qualified people on the list to tell me
>> 
>>       (a) how many 100m wide and up asteroids there would be in a 
>> "average" asteroid belt,
>
> Tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands.
>
>>       (b) how long would it take to get from one to another using 2g, 
>> 1g and 0.1 g maneuver drives,
>
> Figure a typical separation between nearest-neighbor 100m rocks of, oh,
> say it's 1000 km = 1,000,000 m.

Try again. Divide *circumference* of the belt (median orbit) by the
number of bodies. That's a "minimum average" ditance. For example, a
belt with a 2 AU radius has a 6+ AU circumference. Or about 940
*million* km. So for your "hundreds of thousands" they are more than
10,000 km apart. 

As a "rule of thumb" I'd say make a calculation like the above and
multiply by 100, to allow for the spread of orbits. At *least* multiply
by 10.

Asteroid belts are only "crowded" by comparison with the rest of the system!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:09:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

In mail you write:

>>Even if this is not canon, it'd be a fun optional drive type.
> One thing that you haven't looked at: decelleration. In principle,
> such a drive could decellerate (relative to a planet) arbitrarily fast. 
>
> (which may be OK...but needs to be thought about.)

Deceleration should be "reversed" acceleration. So if you are
approaching at a velocity above the velocity you'd have gotten by
boosting at full power from the planet's surface to your current
location, then you know that you will go "splat"! :-)

>>thruster missiles can have them push on the *ship*, which is a lot
>>closer than any planet.

> You haven't defined a range dropoff for the drive yet - whether pushing
> off the ship helps depends on how you make it scale with range.

Ah. I see what you mean. That *is* a factor to consider. Perhaps have
range related to mass. Say by the same inverse cube law I proposed for
calculating the "100 diameter" limits for bodies. Have it not workable
past the "1000 diameter" limit, and we've got things nicely set up. 

>>missiles are accelerating *exponentially* once they get
>>to the point where they switch from pushing off the firing ship to
>>pulling on the target ship.
>
> I don't see why this is true - acceleration (in your basic drive) scales
> as relative velocity, not distance; if you're closing on the target ship
> rapidly, your acceleration goes down.

It was late when I wrote that. I wasn't thinking. Duh!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 05:15:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the millenia

In mail you write:

>    I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters 
> might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados, 
> etc. are out of the question.

We do? I certainly don't know any such thing. Weather control isn't
mentioned anywhere that I've seen, and if it was, it'd have to be
listed as a *weapon*. And if we can have blackouts, they can have
weather control failures.

>      But what kind of disaster can threaten a modern, TL-C world? And as a 
> bonus, seems really sfi-fiish, yet realistic. I can't count how many times 
> Star Trek has used ion storms, or gravimetric waves, or whatever. What 
> among these would really happen? What can I maliciously threaten my players 
> with?

Well, you can use future equivalents of sebveral *current* disasters.
For example, if that freigter loses power at the wrong time, it'll
make a *much* bigger mess than any airline crash! We are talking about
the equivalent of a small nuke, and no easy way to prevent it. 

Besides the usual problems with weather, don't forget that a world
that's onlyu been colonized a hundred or two years may have a *lot* of
surprizes waiting. Like hidden fault zones that trigger killer
earthquakes. 

Asteroid impacts are a good scare. Even at TL-15, just *try* moving a
big asteroid. At least the traffic control in busy systems will spot
the body in time to try "nudging" it.

But if it is off the traffic lanes, or comes fro some weird direction,
it could get ugly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:32:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

> I'm not sure that a nuclear bomb would make mining that much easier.
> Think of the losses involved in the vaporized material, not to mention the
> material that is rendered unusable from the radiation.  Instead of nukes
> to split asteroids, how about Meson guns?  The stresses caused by the
> internal explosions should allow a careful operator to peel asteroids like
> onions.

I'm a fan of the "big solar mirrors" bit. You use something like 1/4
mil aluminized mylar sheeting on a *light* framework to make a mirror a
km or so across with the asteroid at the focal point. You melt it down
and then either scoop up molten rock/metal or you play other tricks.

Frankly, with fusion power, you can make a plasma arc "torch" suitable
for carving the rock into chunks. 

Metal asteroids get smelted in any of the many ways that writers have
come up with over the years. The iron is useful for building, most
belter ships won't *bother* with the expensive superdense, not when
iron and nickel are so cheap. After extracting the nickel and iron, you
refine the remainder down for most of the non-siderophilic metals.
Things like uranium won't be there as it is too fond of silicates.

Stony asteroids get rendered down for silicon and oxygen. Some of the
oxygen goes for life support. Some silicon goes for electronics. But
most go together as silica (SiO2). Glass is *the* most common building
material in any belt, and pretty damned common on worlds in systems
with an active belter subculture.

Aluminum sheets seperated by a layer of foamed glass is a favored
material for walls as it is light, strong, and insulates both temp and
sound. Again, materials from stoney asteroids.

All the siderophilic elements will get extracted from stony asteroids.
Including things like Uranium. 

Carbonaceous Chondritic bodies (chondrites) Are crazy compounds of
carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc. These are the *real* bonanzas
in most belts. Those are life support chemicals. Also needed for things
like plastics. You aren't likely to find these in belts that are
*really* close to their stars, but they'll be in all the others.

In belts that are far enough out you'll get ice asteroids. These will
be mostly water, with ammonia, methane and traces of other stuff. These
are *really* valuable, as they are the main source of hydrogen. Not
only is it the fuel for your fusion reactors, and brobably for your
hydrogen/oxygen manuevering jets, but it's also needed for water and
other life support chemicals. And hydrogen is the *easiest* gas to
lose.

So the valuable rocks *aren't* the metal ones.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:36:43 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Flood of the millenia

>         I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters
> might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados,
> etc. are out of the question.

I've always been partial to random j-space singularities getting loose, like 
what happened on Terra in 1908.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1275
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1276



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Computer Tech
Re: The physics of Jumpspace
IG Announcements
Re: Since Joe is taking questions .....
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Re: Computer Tech
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Sensors and their Operators
Re: The Non-Arbitrary 3?
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: The physics of Jumpspace
Disasters
Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Computer Tech
Re: JTAS 26
Re: IG Announcements
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: The physics of Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:36:45 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

>> (6) The bomb will refuse to detonate in a g-field greater than 0.01 gee,
>>     or in an atmosphere thicker than 0.01 bar.  Experiencing either of
>>     these at *any point* in the countdown will abort the countdown.
>
>Pressurechamber + antigrav unit, it would be expensive,  but it would
>probably work.

Would there be a difference in "natural" gravity and artificial gravity that
one could detect? Would a grav plate be too regular are operate in waves/
pulses or some other means of detecting that one was in an artificial environ-
ment and not on a planet? This has ramifications to an adventure I'm 
currently working on, so speak up people!

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:36:41 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

> Some tactical feedback would simply imitate whether an object was rough
> or smooth, perhaps using some sort of focused magnetic field. This same
> magnetic field could give the feel of resistance to simulate button
> pushing. How this would translate to a tactical readout could be limited
> only by imagination.

How about a very thin film of mylar/plastic/computer cloth/etc. that is cut to
the dimensions that is required. Being very thin but sturdy, it can be folded/
crumpled into a very small space (much like magicians' silk hankies). When 
turned on, a static field/magnetic field/whatever goes through the cloth to 
turn it rigid w/ the shape and colors desired for whatever input device is 
needed, e.g. keyboard, touchpad, writing pad, etc. The same piece of cloth
could have several different settings including standard inputs for other
races. It would be hard to use in a stiff wind, but would be good for the indoor
settings we have been debating. And these could be built into the stationary
computer devices as well, instead of a standard keyboard/touch pad you 
would have a flat area covered in this material, thus allowing f'instince 
shipboard workstations to change their control setups depending on whether
the engineer or the medic is using it, or when the Aslan tech takes over from
the human one.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:36:36 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: The physics of Jumpspace

>Yikes!  I thought *YOU* were the one with the physics background!  *I*
>rely on the Discovery Channel and a 20+ year-old set of encyclopedias!

Good, at least we're working from the same sources <g>!

>> So does this mean we now have to fall back on radiating the heat into
>> the dimension instead of using it as a barrier against it?
>
>I don't know, but I think so.  I renamed this thread to attract others
>so that maybe they can shed some light on the subject.  Once we get a
>better idea how people think jumpspace works, we can begin theorizing
>on a heat sink dimension.

Ok, my original conception of this thing was as a big sphere, the inside
surface 
of which is lined w/ these radiators. In the center of the sphere is the
"h-singularity" that sucks in the heat the radiators put out. Can anyone
critique
this as a viable design, physics aside?

[Which brings up another question I have been wanting to ask, what happens
to a black hole that doesn't have anything to suck in? I know that there is 
always the random scattered atoms in "empty" space, but I am more familiar
with the concept of the hole sucking down the life force of its nearby com-
panion star(s). Does a hole that gets formed out in a relative void just lie
"dormant" except for what it sweeps out of the space around it? How dangerous
would one of these be to our travellers, i.e. how easy/hard would it be to
detect one from several parsecs away if you thought you were jumping into
an empty hex?]

Back to our regularly scheduled rant:

>>From the POV of a sentient being with a limited lifespan, I'd assume
>that there would be no perceived difference between solar cells and a
>perpetual motion machine.  On the grand scale of the universe,
>however, things are different.

That I understand. I'm just trying at the moment to make them break game
balance as little as possible. Then we'll try and make them work <g>.

>> That's it, man, come help us w/ the Universal Hand-Wave Theory! Soon
>> fame, fortune, and little munchkin-babes in bikinis will be ours! :)
>
>Question: Do they look like real Oz munchins?

Well, I....no, I'm not gonna go there...

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:59:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: IG Announcements

Hi,

Since I began designing for IG, I've been unable to give my net.rep job 
the attention I used to give it.  The same can be said of Stu Dollar and 
Guy Garnett, both of whom are also designing products for IG.  As a 
result, we decided to resign as IG's net.reps as of May 1.

In speaking with Tim Brown about this, he has decided to set up a special 
email box for Q&A type email. He would then have someone at his office 
answer that email.  Since Tim is the production manager for Traveller, 
he's the man who always knows what's going on, so it makes sense to have 
someone at his office answering product questions.

At any rate, since this is my last day on the job, I thought I'd get out 
one more Answer.

Folks have been asking about everything on the schedule, essentially.  
Here's what I can tell you:

1)  Generally, take the release dates as listed in the IG catalog, and 
advance the next few by a couple of months.  By GenCon, we expect to be 
caught up.  But until then, things will be a bit behind schedule.  Things 
have been improving on that front (remember the dark days of December, 
when they were 4 months behind schedule), and will continue to improve.  
But, it does take time to catch up to schedule.  

2)  By May 15, JTAS 26 and Pocket Empires will be out (they're both at 
the printer right now).

3)  Anomalies will be out in late May or early June.

4)  Psionic Institutes will be out by June 15.

5)  Tim has finally received the go-ahead to do Citizens of the 
Imperium.  He's coordinating that project now, but is waiting for a piece 
of equipment necessary to the project.  Once everything's in place, it'll 
go out.

6)  Deluxe T4 is still scheduled for June, but it's still a work in 
process (i.e., it's being designed right now), so anything can happen. IG 
wants to get it out as quickly as possible (the sooner there's a bug-free 
version of T4 out there, the better for their sales of ALL their 
products), but they don't want to rush it to press and thereby make the 
same mistake as was made the first time.


News/Rumors/Wild Stories
========================

...Psionic Institutes will be put to turned in to IG this coming Monday...

...The nice folks working on FF&S tell me its coming along nicely...

...IG is in negotiations with Greg Porter for him to make another 
T4 supplement (sorry, no further details are available)...

...The Long Way Home (part 1) is in IG's hands, and part 2 (Gateway) is 
in progress...

...Work on the Aliens Hardback is under way...

...Expect the Traveller line to have 3 hardback products by GenCon, if 
all goes well (sorry, again, no further details)...


Signing off for one last time as IG Net.Rep,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:20:16 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Since Joe is taking questions .....

> What's up with the release schedule? I ordered DT4 along with the Internet pre order thing ..... and now we are months behind.

IG has been behind on just about every product since it was created, 
but to tell you the truth, I really don't mind.

I would much rather have superior, de-bugged products than rushed to 
completion crap.

The only thing is--since IG is taking so much time, the new products 
better be more along the lines of EA and not FS.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:30:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Snipped stuff about nuke buying/using rules for belters wanting to use
civilian nukes for mining.

Why would they want nukes to mine? They could use laser/plasma drillers or
solar mirrors to boil the asteoids (that's what O'Neill proposes for real
belters) etc. Blowing things up in zero-G is generally a bad idea as the
fragments will fly away never to return. I'm not shure about the reasoning
here except for adventure hooks. Planetside miners on the other hand they
could find more uses for nuke mining.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:38:31 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

>        Determined terrorists will ALWAYS be able to do what you don't
>want them
>to do. I think these precautions will keep down the nutcases and minor
>players, which is about all you can hope for. After all, I don't see
>anybody (rational) trying to outlaw diesel fuel and fertilizer ...
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

 Luckily enough terrorist are almost always adrenalin junkies with no
patience and less brains otherwise we would have seen terrorist nukes
already as they are fairly easy to steal/make if determined enough and
backed by some  real money as terrorists often are.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:35:42 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

>I think that treating gravity as a field theory (like magnetism) would offer
>a more plausible explanation for the thrust plates.
>
>>       2) Size increases with thrust: more equipment and power is
>>needed to pump the incoming gravitons to higher and higher energy
>>levels;
>
>This is consistent with a "magnetic" style field theory as well.
>
>>       3) Drive inefficency past the system level: rapid fall-off of
>>gravitational strength means less gravitons to work with.
>
>Same applies to the field theory as the strength of the field diminishes
>with the inverse square (?) of the distance from the source of the field.

Fields and particles are two sides of the same coin, you cannot choose
between them.
(Reminds me of the theme song for "Married with kids":)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:42:24 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

>I _think_ you're talking about a method for manufacturing prototypes.
>Under one method, a laser is traced across a pool of semi-liquid plastic
>(very small balls in one case), which solidifies where the laser traced.
>This solid layer is then lowered into the pool, and another layer is
>traced.  This continues, building up a complex 3D shape out of plastic.
>
>The things manufactured this way are primarily useful as early prototypes
>and sometimes as masters for lost-wax casting.  There are other other
>similar methods too using layers of paper glued together, for example.
>
>Still, it's isn't _too_ big of a leap from here to TL12, where you could
>posit X-ray lithography on a macro scale, pushing tens of atoms around to
>ultimately create macro-scale 3D objects.

I hope everyone understood that these things exist today - not in labs but
commercially available - but in order to use them as the original poster
described you'll have to put a diversuit on the operator and keep him in
the plastic soup used as a rawmaterial for the process. Also I'm shure no
serious article on the subject would describe them as "frozen holograms".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:58:55 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

>I thought gravitic laser focusing would work by bending the beam like a
>Black Hole does. A strong point source in the lens system should work,
>though I suspect you'd also need a lot of damping aroud it to stop the
>'lens' wrecking the ship. Maybe that's why high TL lasers in FF&S are no
>more efficient than lower TL's - they need more damping to counter their
>more powerful lenses.

The reason you need a large diameter dish to focus lasers is quantum
mechanical and fundamental. If you put a black holeish thingy in front of
yor laserdish you'd basically have the same spreading problem but at a
higher cost. The travelling gravity pulse was handwaved to refocus the beam
along its path. Another (siliier) idea would be to put your blackholeish
thingy out midway between you and the target to refocus the beam, This
would also work but if you can put blackholeish things several thousand
kilometers out why not put them inside the bridge of the target ship and
get rid of the laser altogether?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:53:08 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>I disagree. The problem with rectangular grids is that the distance you
>measure with them depend on the orientation of the grid. Put a rectangular
>grid over an arbitrary line and count the squares it passes through. Then
>rotate the grid 90 degrees and count again. You get different numbers. To
>compensate you have to do some arithmetic for diagonals. This does not
>happen with hex grids.

I agree it doesn't happen with hexes IF you only measure distances along
the three axes that hexes are correct on. Squares are correct on two
perpendicular axes. Any arbitrary distance will be wrongly measured by both
systems and the big advantage to squares is that they're easier to fit onto
normal deckplans ie arbitration on in what square/hex a feature is supposed
to be are less frequent. Count each diagonal as 1.5 and be done with it.

The advantage of squares is that EVRUBODY have them. They're everywhere so
you don't have to go to your local gameshop when you run out of paper. I do
all combats etc on 5mm grid paper the same as I use to write down adventure
notes etc. I've yet to see a Drawing program that let you have hexgrid
grids for doing plans.

I am a bit curious as to why you got so angry about my preference for
squares instead of hexes - do you sell hexmaps or something?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:04:32 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sensors and their Operators

>Anders, I thought about multiplying but I couldn't get the numbers to scale
>out the way I wanted.  If you use integers time asset you get a very coarse
>scale:  1*14+14; 2*14=28; etc.  Ranges can go up very quickly too.
>
>Eris

Use logarithmic sensorfactors (lots of advantages there) and set the base
figure so that adding ops asset will give you a nice number. My space
combat system posted here earlier will show you how (I can repost or send
it to you direct if you want it).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:07:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The Non-Arbitrary 3?

>I've been looking at Carlos' MT variant task system lately, and I
>noticed that he came up with the same relationship--except, instead
>of increasing the skill level by 3, he is decreasing the attribute by
>3.  Either way, you end up with a 3:1 ratio.
>
>
>
>This has just been a thought that occured to me lately, and I thought
>I would post it for any who are interested.
>
>Kenneth.

My task system which is very different from MT and yours, have the same 3
charpoints equalling 1 skill level!

Maybe this is a fundamental law of nature ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:32:58 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

>Would there be a difference in "natural" gravity and artificial gravity that
>one could detect? Would a grav plate be too regular are operate in waves/
>pulses or some other means of detecting that one was in an artificial environ-
>ment and not on a planet? This has ramifications to an adventure I'm
>currently working on, so speak up people!

I'd say that gravplates are far less stable than "real" planetary gravity
but that you need a good sensor to design it. Some people (mostly elderly
Californians with crystal earrings and home dyed clothes) say they can feel
the differance and suffer terrible headaches when in artificial gravity
fields. The first floorfield generators were so poor you couldn't even play
pool in them as the amplitude as well as angle varied so much that the
balls wouldn't roll the way they should but this is long past now.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:23:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Re: The physics of Jumpspace

On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Paul D. Owensby wrote:
> Ok, my original conception of this thing was as a big sphere, the inside
> surface 
> of which is lined w/ these radiators. In the center of the sphere is the
> "h-singularity" that sucks in the heat the radiators put out. Can anyone
> critique
> this as a viable design, physics aside?
> 
> [Which brings up another question I have been wanting to ask, what happens
> to a black hole that doesn't have anything to suck in? I know that there is 
> always the random scattered atoms in "empty" space, but I am more familiar
> with the concept of the hole sucking down the life force of its nearby com-
> panion star(s). Does a hole that gets formed out in a relative void just lie
> "dormant" except for what it sweeps out of the space around it? How dangerous
> would one of these be to our travellers, i.e. how easy/hard would it be to
> detect one from several parsecs away if you thought you were jumping into
> an empty hex?]

Black holes evaporate. The smaller the hole, the shorter its life span.
Steven Hawking has done some remarkable theoretical work on this subject.
According to Hawking, black holes are 'fuzzy', and lose mass over time.

> 
> **********************************************************
>   Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
>  CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
> "So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
> Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
_______________________________________________________ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:37:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Keith Thoms <kthoms@nooster.nosc.mil>
Subject: Disasters

At 07:52 PM 28/04/97 -0500, you wrote:

>	But what kind of disaster can threaten a modern, TL-C world? And as a 
>bonus, seems really sfi-fiish, yet realistic. I can't count how many times 
>Star Trek has used ion storms, or gravimetric waves, or whatever. What 
>among these would really happen? What can I maliciously threaten my players 
>with?

My goodness, if people run this world, there will be all kinds of
screw-ups, accidents, fraud, scams, politics, riots, fads, etc.
Things that go up do come down, dams break, power fails,
construction can be substandard, computers have bugs, operators can
be negligent.  Not everyone in a TL-C world has a college education
and hazmat handling training.  There's always some combination of
technology that noone would ever dream of doing intentionally.  At
that TL, someone could punch a hole in the crust from their basement
workshop and noone would even figure out how it happened:  study
Darwin award finalists for some really stupid things people do
today, and multiply it by population and technology increases of the
future!  

- -----------
Keith Thoms                                 Is it a rule, that there is an 
wind@nooster.nosc.mil                             exception to every rule?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:49:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

>Deceleration should be "reversed" acceleration.
It could be, but there's no fundamental reason why it has to be. Your acceleration
goes down with increasing velocity due to conservation of energy, right? 
If you're *decelerating* relative to your "anchor" mass you're *losing*
kinetic energy (which presumably your power plant disappates as heat or 
something) and hence not limited by the power input. (In fact, you 
could design a mechanism to store the energy - regenerative braking for
starships!)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:59:22 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?  What's the
approximate gravity on Ceres?  How does this vary on a long non-spherical
object like a big asteroid?  What's the approximate natural gravity on,
say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

And heck, what's the average air-speed of a coconut-laden European swallow? :)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:59:26 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

At 04:42 PM 4/30/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>I _think_ you're talking about a method for manufacturing prototypes.
>>Under one method, a laser is traced across a pool of semi-liquid plastic
>>(very small balls in one case), which solidifies where the laser traced.
>>This solid layer is then lowered into the pool, and another layer is
>>traced.  This continues, building up a complex 3D shape out of plastic.
>>
>>The things manufactured this way are primarily useful as early prototypes
>>and sometimes as masters for lost-wax casting.  There are other other
>>similar methods too using layers of paper glued together, for example.
>>
>>Still, it's isn't _too_ big of a leap from here to TL12, where you could
>>posit X-ray lithography on a macro scale, pushing tens of atoms around to
>>ultimately create macro-scale 3D objects.
>
>I hope everyone understood that these things exist today - not in labs but
>commercially available - but in order to use them as the original poster
>described you'll have to put a diversuit on the operator and keep him in
>the plastic soup used as a rawmaterial for the process. Also I'm shure no
>serious article on the subject would describe them as "frozen holograms".

Well, the manufacturing process I described exists today.  It's been in use
in the CAD industry since the late 1980s, and in the medical prosthesis
industry since the early 1990s.  The x-ray lithography thing is several TL
leaps ahead of us yet.  

No diver suits are required for the manufacturing process; it takes place
inside a sealed chamber.  But you're right, no one would dream of calling
these "frozen holograms."  I have no idea where _that_ came from.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:16:59 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: JTAS 26

>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> Hey, "Answerman" Joe--what's the word on JTAS 26? The web site shows it
>> coming out in March 97 ... it's now (almost) May. Inquiring
>> minds/subscribers wanna know...
>
>What, you didn't get your copy?  I got mine months ago.  Oh, right, it's
>only available to those of us who have the new and improved Computer by
>the Foot (tm), as it's distributed in a format readable only by the CbtF
>proprietary FootWrite Desk Accessory. <grin>
>
>Actually, I dunno what's happened on the JTAS front.  Last I heard, which
>was a few weeks ago, they had everything ready to go but the art.  I'll
>ask Tim on Wednesday and let everyone know what I find out.

I can provide some light... :) Wrong Joe, but that's okay. I sent in a
piece of artwork (a deckplan) to be included with something Ed Carmien did
for JTAS 26 - Jean asked me to have it in by Monday because that's when she
was putting it together. I'd guess we won't see it on the shelves for at
least a few more weeks...


 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:22:24 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: IG Announcements

On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:59:58 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Since I began designing for IG, I've been unable to give my net.rep job 
> the attention I used to give it.  The same can be said of Stu Dollar and 
> Guy Garnett, both of whom are also designing products for IG.  As a 
> result, we decided to resign as IG's net.reps as of May 1.

:(

You will come and visit, won't you young man?

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:04:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

>>So, any ideas on this? I'd like to have some input on more
>>"conventional" attractions (rides, rollercoasters and so on).
>>Obviously you could do a lot with VR and simulators, but this goes
>>against some of the ideas behind amusement parks, IMHO.
>>The attractions should be enjoyed by large groups of people at the
>>same time, instead of creating artificial cocoons in which everyone
>>plays alone. This should be expecially true in Vilani culture, I
>>think, and would be consistent with the rest of Traveller universe,
>>where VR seems to be largely downplayed.

Imagine what you could do with VR if you had gravitics. Strap the audience
down into a spherical VR "ride-theatre" with holographic displays. Gravitic
modules in the sphere could create all the kinetic effects usually missing
from VR: sustained G forces, free-fall, you name it. This would effectively
eliminate the VR-sickness problem, resulting from mismatched signals from
the viewer's eyes and inner ears.

Leaving aside VR, gravitic tech provides vast opportunities for relatively
safe amusement park rides beyond anything we've ever seen. Dogfights
between 'space fighters'. Zero-gravity aerial bumper cars. Aerobatic
sky-diving with grav-belts (as in Somtow Sucharitkul's short story, "The
Thirteenth Utopia", or Neil Ferguson's _Double Helix Fall_). Lots of wild
possibilities.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:39:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: The physics of Jumpspace

Quoth Paul D. Owensby:
> [Which brings up another question I have been wanting to ask, what happens
> to a black hole that doesn't have anything to suck in....?  Does a hole
> that gets formed out in a relative void just lie "dormant" except for
> what it sweeps out of the space around it? How dangerous would one of
> these be to our travellers, i.e. how easy/hard would it be to detect one
> from several parsecs away if you thought you were jumping into an empty hex?]

Heh-heh.  Isolated black holes _evaporate_.  It's true!  Stephen Hawking
made a big stir several years back with the concept, and his theory is the
source of the term "Hawking radiation."  Basically, because of the highly-
stressed space near the event horizon, "virtual particles" are constantly
popping into existence from the vacuum and annihilating each other.  But
once in a while, one of the virtual particles will get knocked in towards
the black hole, which in turn kicks the other out and away, sometimes to
escape.  The black hole has thus suffered a net loss of mass-energy, and
gets smaller.  A black hole actually has a "temperature"!

For stellar-size black holes this process takes a looooooooong time, and
is easily overcome by gobbling up your red-giant neighbor or what have
you.  But the process accelerates the smaller a black hole is, which is
why we don't expect to find any Niven-style atomic-size singularities:
they'd appear white-hot and explode within microseconds!

So Our Heroes could detect a black hole in isolation, more and more easily
the smaller it gets.  I just hope jump breakout near a black hole is rather
further out than 100 diameters....  (Tidal forces!  Eeeeeew!)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1276
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, April 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1277



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: The physics of Jumpspace
Self-Destructing Hardback
Re: Frontier Traders
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
MT Task System for T4 (reposted)
Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: THUDDD Suggestion
re: Flood of the Millennium
RE: Flood of the millenia
Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)
Oops, look out for that planet...
TML/IG Announcements
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Artificial vs. real gravity
Re: Oops, look out for that planet...
Re: THUDDD Comments
Re: Gravitic Focusing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

At 09:59 AM 4/30/97 -0700, Mike Sellers wrote:
>Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
>natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?  What's the
>approximate gravity on Ceres?  How does this vary on a long non-spherical
>object like a big asteroid?  What's the approximate natural gravity on,
>say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

For the real physics guys, there is also a component from rotation on such a
small body.

>And heck, what's the average air-speed of a coconut-laden European swallow? :)

It depends on whether or not the coconut is equipped with a mini-nuke :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:52:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: The physics of Jumpspace

At 12:23 PM 4/30/97 -0400, Tom Ellis wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Paul D. Owensby wrote:
>> Ok, my original conception of this thing was as a big sphere, the inside
>> surface 
>> of which is lined w/ these radiators. In the center of the sphere is the
>> "h-singularity" that sucks in the heat the radiators put out. Can anyone
>> critique
>> this as a viable design, physics aside?
>> 
>> [Which brings up another question I have been wanting to ask, what happens
>> to a black hole that doesn't have anything to suck in? I know that there is 
>> always the random scattered atoms in "empty" space, but I am more familiar
>> with the concept of the hole sucking down the life force of its nearby com-
>> panion star(s). Does a hole that gets formed out in a relative void just lie
>> "dormant" except for what it sweeps out of the space around it? How dangerous
>> would one of these be to our travellers, i.e. how easy/hard would it be to
>> detect one from several parsecs away if you thought you were jumping into
>> an empty hex?]
>
>Black holes evaporate. The smaller the hole, the shorter its life span.
>Steven Hawking has done some remarkable theoretical work on this subject.
>According to Hawking, black holes are 'fuzzy', and lose mass over time.
>

Hawking's book explains this very clearly (for those of you unfamiliar with
the concept).  Due to a certain constant (Planck's?) there is a limit as to
how accurately a thing can be placed in space.  Thus, a piece of matter and
anti-matter could come into existence simultaneously but be slightly
displaced in space and all of the laws of conservation are maintained.  In a
black hole situation, the two elements appear on either side of the "event
horizon" (the point at which things inescapably fall into the black hole).
If anti-matter forms on the inside of the horizon, it falls into the black
hole and eliminates some of the matter there, while the matter drifts off
into the rest of space.  Thus, the black hole gradually looses matter and
effectively "evaporates" spontaneously.  Clearly, this takes a little while.

Brett Fishburne
bfish@atlantech.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:13:51 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Self-Destructing Hardback

Am I the only one whose limited-edition, first-printing, autographed,
UNTOUCHED hardback is self-destructing? The corners of the cover are
pulling away from the rest of the book ...

The only time I even opened the hardcover was to check MM's sig...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:19:29 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Frontier Traders

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>
>> 	My take on these "Frontier Traders" (a term which I shamelessly ripped
>> off from Ross Coburn) is that they'd be in the 300-500 Td range
[snip]
>
>I think 300-500 is a *little*too small, I think.  I'm looking (for my game
>in progress and one coming up) at 600-900 tons.


	Actually, if you have the design, can you send it to me?  I
actually had the rather wierd idea of beginning the next campaign by
telling the players:

	"OK... you walk out of the lawyers's office heady with
entrepreneurial ambition and with the papers of your newly formed
exploratory trading corporation in your briefcases.  As your financing was
confirmed this morning, your next stop is Honest Shuuviliikaa's Used
Starships lot, where you find the following vessels..."

	Hit them with the specs for a variety of craft, and let them decide
:).  That ought to be good for several hours of intense hull-kicking and
in-character bickering :).  So everybody start doing designs for the THUDDD
right now, OK :)?

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:34:52 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

At 09:59 am 04/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
>natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?  What's the
>approximate gravity on Ceres?  How does this vary on a long non-spherical
>object like a big asteroid?  What's the approximate natural gravity on,
>say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

	Gravitational force acting on an object m at any distance R from a mass M
(assumed to be point-pass, for simplicity) is

	F=GmM/R^2

Where G is the universal gravitational constant. G=6.67E-11 N m^2/kg^2

	Since F=ma, you then get

	a=GM/R^2

	Note that a N/kg is 1 m/s^2

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:51:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Quoth Mike Sellers:
> Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
> natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?

                                 6.7E-11 * Mass of asteroid (kg)
	g (in Earth gravities) = --------------------------------
                                 9.8 * (Radius of asteroid (m))^2

> What's the approximate gravity on Ceres?

I don't have the relevant data handy.  Check an encyclopedia (or try the
sources referenced by the sci.space FAQ), get the numbers for the formula
above, and plug and chug.  :-)

> How does this vary on a long non-spherical object like a big asteroid?

Try the formula above for different values of R representing the extremes
of the asteroid shape (recall R is _not_ diameter, but distance from the
surface to the center of mass).  The gravity will smoothly vary between
those values as you traverse the surface.

> What's the approximate natural gravity on, say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

I seem to recall that rocky asteroids are about 5000 kg/m^3 (though that
may be just an average figure for the Earth).  An encylopedia or online
reference could probably give you the proper value.  So multiply that
density by (1000 x 500 x 5000) (need to get meters for our volume) to get
mass, pick your radiii (500, 250, and 2500 in this case), and plug and chug.

> And heck, what's the average air-speed of a coconut-laden European swallow? :)

Well, assume a spherical frictionless swallow....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:53:47 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: MT Task System for T4 (reposted)

I am reposting the following, because someone asked me to. Apologies if you got it
already. ( BTW, what do the authors of the "rival" mechanics such as KBv2.0 and 
3 Task think ? )

As requested, here goes -

===================================================================================
"VMTTS" (vee-mitts) - VARIANT MEGATRAVELLER TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER 4TH EDITION, VERSION 1.0
===================================================================================

This system uses 2D instead of a varying number of dice in all cases. 

Roll the target number or above to succeed. Roll less than the
target number and you have failed. DMs are always applied to the die
roll, not the target number. An unmodified roll of 2 is _always_ a 
failure. It is not always an exceptional failure, however ; see below.
There is no equivalent automatic success result.

Difficulty levels remain as per their T4 descriptions. Target numbers are
Easy/Simple 3+, Average/Routine 7+, Difficult 11+, Formidable 15+, Staggering 19+ 
and Impossible 23+. ( In effect, Staggering is old Impossible, and Impossible is now yet one
task level higher still ). The sequence 3-7-11-15-19-23 should be easy to
remember.

Roll two points or more below the target number for Exceptional / Spectacular
failure. Roll two points or more above the target number for Exceptional /
Spectacular success.

Characteristics - only one may modify a given task roll. Characteristics
in the range 6-8 do not modify tasks - they are assumed to be average human ranges.
Apply DM -1 for characteristic 2-5 ( below average human ). 
Apply DM +1 for characteristic 9-B ( above average human ). 
Apply DM +2 for characteristic C-F ( exceptional human ).
Apply DM +3 for characteristic G+  ( superhuman ).

Tasks may be modified in the following ways -

SAFE          - Exceptional Failure cannot occur. Any failure result is
                a normal failure, even a "natural" 2. Mishaps cannot occur.
(NORMAL)      - "Natural" 2 is a 2D mishap. Exceptional Failure and Normal
                Failure are not mishaps.
HAZARDOUS     - Exceptional Failure is a 2D mishap. A "natural" 2 is a 3D
                mishap. Normal Failure is not a mishap.
FATEFUL       - Normal failure is a 2D mishap. Exceptional Failure and
                "natural" 2 are 3D mishaps.

UNCERTAIN     - Referee rolls 1D, player rolls the other. Player can thus make
                educated guess as to outcome.

UNSKILLED OK  - Quoted skill(s) are not essential. If a task is not Unskilled OK,
                and the character has not got the right skill(s), +2 task difficulty levels.
                If the character has a related skill, +1 task difficulty levels. Jack-Of-All-Trades
                may be applied at half possessed level in the place of any
                missing skill.
CONFRONTATION - Both sides roll task - highest modified roll wins. Equal rolls are
                stalemates.

HASTY         - Increase task difficulty level by one. Time taken = Time taken x 0.5
CAUTIOUS      - Decrease task difficulty level by one. Time taken = Time taken x 2.0

Skill level-0 is assumed to be basic, rudimentary knowledge, enough to incur no
Unskilled Penalty. T4 usually assumes that level-0 in a skill means no knowledge -
I prefer the complete absence of a skill on a character sheet to reflect no
knowledge at all, and level-0 to be "green".

I cap skill levels at level 5. Only rare genius can go higher !

Retry attempts can be made as follows -

If previous attempt resulted in ...           Retry task ...

Mishap                                        Not possible
Exceptional Failure                           At one higher difficulty level
Normal Failure                                At same difficulty level

If the character has Jack-Of-All-Trades, he or she can retry exceptional failures
on a given repeated task at no task difficulty penalty a number of times equal to
his or her Jack-Of-All-Trades level. After that is spent, normal penalties start to
accrue.

As with Cautious tasks, there is no Check Determination task for retries in this
system.

T4 is based on a multiple dice "large number system". Some DMs, such DM +9 for
darkness etc are too large to be applied to this system. My suggestion is to rate each
case on individual merit, and scale DMs to -3 through +3 from their original value.

That's all folks. I assume you have MT and access to the Mishap tables etc. Let me know
what you think.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:14:16 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>>Deceleration should be "reversed" acceleration.
>It could be, but there's no fundamental reason why it has to be. Your
>acceleration
>goes down with increasing velocity due to conservation of energy, right?
>If you're *decelerating* relative to your "anchor" mass you're *losing*
>kinetic energy (which presumably your power plant disappates as heat or
>something) and hence not limited by the power input. (In fact, you
>could design a mechanism to store the energy - regenerative braking for
>starships!)


	Buzz Aldrin, "Encounter with Tiber": sort've like a Bussard ram in
reverse; big magnetic field braking agains the interstellar medium.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:15:58 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

Anders Backman wrote:

>
>The reason you need a large diameter dish to focus lasers is quantum
>mechanical and fundamental. If you put a black holeish thingy in front of
>yor laserdish you'd basically have the same spreading problem but at a
>higher cost. The travelling gravity pulse was handwaved to refocus the beam
>along its path. Another (siliier) idea would be to put your blackholeish
>thingy out midway between you and the target to refocus the beam, This
>would also work but if you can put blackholeish things several thousand
>kilometers out why not put them inside the bridge of the target ship and
>get rid of the laser altogether?

	This is one of the things that bugs me about this gravitic
focussing thing.  It's just begging the question of what would be the
number of G's created have to be in order to keep the beam focussed.

	If it's ludicrously high, it means either that either grav
focussing or all the current limits on what can be done with gravitic tech
at the TLs in question is going to have to be revised...

	And yeah, I've been wondering about the weapons applications for
gravitics, too.


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:24:22 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Suggestion

>Hey Craig:  it just occurred to me that a good way of structuring
>the ballot for the next THUDDD would be to have people rate the ships on a
>1-10 descending scale, _on each mission requirement_ plus one for general
>coolosity and innovativeness and another for role-playing potential;so we'd

I think the problem with this is that a *long* ballot sheet turns off
participation.
I wasn't able to design or vote in the last THUDDD due to time constraints, and
making the evaluation process that much more involved would just limit my
participation even further. While I greatly admire what Dr. Clark is able to do
with his judging, I'm afraid many of us may not be able to spend as much time
as we'd like in evaluating the entries.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:24:19 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: re: Flood of the Millennium

>* terrorists introducing a virus into a highly religious world's net that
>causes it to display or transmit nothing but images calculated to to
>blaspheme, sacrilege, etc.  The population goes nuts and runs off to a
>revival meeting after smashing their communications infrastructure (if not
>everything else above TL-0) into bits.  Things Fall Apart.

In the computer game Frontier Elite II, it describes a planet founded by a 
group of devout worshippers set upon by the infamous "Bored Gazillionaire
Playboy With Nothing Better To Do." Spending a vast sum of credits on
satellites, huge hologram projectors, etc. he staged the second coming of
whatever being they worshipped, who then refused to take them with him
due to their leader's "unsightlly shave". This then starts a planet wide schism
and civil war between those who thought he meant they weren't hairless 
enough, and those who thought he meant they weren't hairy enough.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 21:28 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: RE: Flood of the millenia

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970430135612.353fa22e@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>

<< Read the "HOT ZONE", and have a disease based on Ebola (I tried this, but
as soon as the players realised what was going on, they **ran**, fast.) >>

Done that...actually, did it before I'd even heard of Ebola, although the 
symptoms are very similar. You can find out more in my campaign diary (if 
anyone's interested, I'll explain the real story).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:32:26 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)

Brett Fishburne wrote:
> 
> >Black holes evaporate. The smaller the hole, the shorter its life span.
> >Steven Hawking has done some remarkable theoretical work on this subject.
> >According to Hawking, black holes are 'fuzzy', and lose mass over time.
> >
> 
> Hawking's book explains this very clearly (for those of you unfamiliar with
> the concept).  Due to a certain constant (Planck's?) there is a limit as to
> how accurately a thing can be placed in space.  Thus, a piece of matter and
> anti-matter could come into existence simultaneously but be slightly
> displaced in space and all of the laws of conservation are maintained.  In a
> black hole situation, the two elements appear on either side of the "event
> horizon" (the point at which things inescapably fall into the black hole).
> If anti-matter forms on the inside of the horizon, it falls into the black
> hole and eliminates some of the matter there, while the matter drifts off
> into the rest of space.  Thus, the black hole gradually looses matter and
> effectively "evaporates" spontaneously.  Clearly, this takes a little while.
> 

I'm not a physicist so bear with me. If matter-antimatter pairs are
constantly forming throughout the universe and if the antimatter
part is on the inside of the event horizon, then I can see how the
black hole would slowly evaporate.

However, the matter part of the pair should form inside the event
horizon just as often as the antimatter. So, the black hole gains
mass from the matter half of the pair and loses mass from the antimatter
half. The net result is that the black hole is in equilibrium.

Have I missed something?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:15:23 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Oops, look out for that planet...

Paul D. Owensby <pauld@athens.net> said:
>> I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century disasters
>> might be. We know the Imperium has weather control, so floods, tornados,
>> etc. are out of the question.
>
>I've always been partial to random j-space singularities getting loose,
>like what happened on Terra in 1908.

Ah.  So some Vilani starship (probably the Vilani version of a free trader
or belter) misjumped into a system just beyond the edge of Imperial space,
and came out of jump inside the 100-diameter limit?  Or did the poor soul
manage to land and repair his ship, only to have the jumpr dirve or power
plant fail catastrophically shortly after takeoff?

What other past events can we blame on Vilani engineering incompetence?
Ezekiel's Wheel (Ezekiel got to watch a Lab Ship reenter the atmosphere and
flame out)?  Atlantis (the dreaded .1c chunk of spacecraft flotsam)?  The
Titanic (wilderness sea refueling gone horribly wrong)?

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:24:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: TML/IG Announcements

Hi,

I received several emails from folks who indicated they were under the 
impression I was somehow "leaving" the TML.  This isn't true, and I 
didn't mean to imply that in my previous post.  I'm not going to try to 
design Traveller supplements without having access my fellow fans.  Doing so 
would be like designing for the game without actually bothering to play 
it...another sin I won't commit. <G>

So, I'll still be around; I just won't be spending time doing Q&A.  I'll 
be joining the large number of T4 designers who are subscribed to the TML 
- - Marc Miller, Andy Lilly, Stu Dollar, David Burden, Guy "Wildstar" Garnett, 
Dave Golden, Jo Grant . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 09:32:04 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

At 16:58 30/04/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>I thought gravitic laser focusing would work by bending the beam like a
>>Black Hole does. A strong point source in the lens system should work,
>>though I suspect you'd also need a lot of damping aroud it to stop the
>>'lens' wrecking the ship. Maybe that's why high TL lasers in FF&S are no
>>more efficient than lower TL's - they need more damping to counter their
>>more powerful lenses.
>
>The reason you need a large diameter dish to focus lasers is quantum
>mechanical and fundamental. If you put a black holeish thingy in front of
>yor laserdish you'd basically have the same spreading problem but at a
>higher cost. The travelling gravity pulse was handwaved to refocus the beam
>along its path. Another (siliier) idea would be to put your blackholeish
>thingy out midway between you and the target to refocus the beam, This
>would also work but if you can put blackholeish things several thousand
>kilometers out why not put them inside the bridge of the target ship and
>get rid of the laser altogether?

OK, I thought there must be a reason, but I could see it. It's just that
the 'bundled pulse' seemed to involve even more handwaving than a
gravitational lens.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:45:23 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

While working on the Unified Handwave Theory, one of my experiments
has led me to consider where thrusters fit in. And I thought about Meson 
guns....

Consider the wonderful discovery that Bob Meson made in the Meson
particle. Here is an entity that goes through anything, and "decays" at
a predetermined time and place with catastropic results. CG is
discovered at TL 9 (IIRC), Meson guns at TL 11, and Thrusters at TL
12. Researchers into CG discovered its wave or field type properties
and exploited them, it took Dr. Meson two TLs further in time to isolate
the various gravitic particles and how to harness them. As usual, it was 
used as a weapon before the requisite TL advance to fine tune and
control it for civilian purposes. 

Upon reaching the target, the packet of Meson particles decays into a 
very small black hole type of effect, a "psuedole". The psuedole causes
a very brief but very powerful gravitic pulse that causes an immediate
implosion in the surounding area. I'll bet if we question survivors on board
a ship hit by a Meson gun, they'd tell you the resulting implosion was a
pale electric blue flash. This has the additional result of giving a nice
special FX for the mythical Traveller movie, as it will be nice to have a
gun that instead of exploding incoming fighters, causes them to crumple 
up like a sheet of tin foil first :)

Now, for the drive, the Meson Effect causes either a small psuedole ahead
of the ship that pulls it forward, or more likely an anti-psuedole that pushes
it ahead, thus explaining the pale blue light at the rear of ships. Or maybe it
reacts with the standard gravitic particles to achieve the gun and thruster
effects. I'm just throwing this theory out at a hectic time, haven't had too
much time to evaluate it. That's what this mushhead relies on y'all gearheads
for :) Using the Meson effect for Thrusters also explains why Meson screens
are projected instead of a generalized field; if it was switched on as a field
you'd loose your manuevering ability.

Well, back to trying to tie all this together with jump space and heat sinks...
I've run it up the flagpole, y'all start shooting !

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:59:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Artificial vs. real gravity

> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:36:45 -0400
> From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
> 
> Would there be a difference in "natural" gravity and artificial gravity that
> one could detect? Would a grav plate be too regular are operate in waves/
> pulses or some other means of detecting that one was in an artificial environ-
> ment and not on a planet? This has ramifications to an adventure I'm 
> currently working on, so speak up people!

I would imagine that there is a difference between generated and real
gravity, but you'd need fairly good instruments or a lot of time and
careful experimentation to detect it from inside a ship.  Doing tests
over an extended volume would make the process quite a bit easier.  What
I'd look for:

* Divergent acceleration direction and strength at different points,
  varying by more than could be accounted for on a world's surface.
  I'd look for this especially near the hull, where you'd get edge
  effects.

* Moderately high frequency and low amplitude oscillations in field
  strength.  It's very difficult to get rid of these in AC electronics,
  and odds are that nobody would bother to do so once the noise was pushed
  a couple of orders of magnitude below perceptability.

Hope this helps!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:36:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Oops, look out for that planet...

On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:15:23 -0700, you wrote:

> What other past events can we blame on Vilani engineering incompetence?
> Ezekiel's Wheel (Ezekiel got to watch a Lab Ship reenter the atmosphere and
> flame out)?  Atlantis (the dreaded .1c chunk of spacecraft flotsam)?  The
> Titanic (wilderness sea refueling gone horribly wrong)?

How 'bout Disco? :P

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: 01 May 97 09:41:08 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

- --smxr-9705010938428066
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Dear Vexed, (aka Ethan Henry)

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, you wrote

>I followed the crew calculations from SSDS as closely as possible...

     They aren't the clearest, but I managed to make some headway with 
it.


>Also, someone asked why I had 38 gunners (a fair question), which was 
>more than the entire crew of some other entries... so, someone, tell 
>me where I went wrong here.

>20 light & heavy laser turrets   -   20 gunners 
>4 missle turrets                 -    4 gunners 
>2 sandacsters                    -    2  "
>1 nuclear damper                 -    1  "
>11 MFDs                          -   11  " (on the bridge) 
>                                   ------
>                                     38

     As you have installed MFDs for the lasers and missiles (I assume), 
you can get rid of the individual gunners for those weapons., That gives 
you a reduction of 24. Otherwise these figures look OK.

>standard automation, just like me! What gives??? I'm also the only 
>person who listed 'Maintenance' crew - are they supposed to be rolled 
>into Engineering?

     In Starship Assembly Line, I have maintenance crew separate, but 
from memory it takes a lot of equipment to need maintenance crew. I 
haven't got starships with me though, so I can't give you a definite 
answer. Try running your design through SAL, and see what sort of crew 
you get. 

Bye,
James Dempsey
jamesd@spirit.com.au (home)
james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au (work)

- --smxr-9705010938428066
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit


- --smxr-9705010938428066--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:59:51 -2900 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

Quoth Roderick Darroch Elliott:
> 	This is one of the things that bugs me about this gravitic
> focussing thing.  It's just begging the question of what would be the
> number of G's created have to be in order to keep the beam focussed.

I can dig out my original math from the gdw-beta list, if you're really
interested.  I seem to recall that a 1g "annular confinement pulse" did
the trick very nicely, while if you tried the "black hole on the emitter"
trick you ended up forming and/or lugging around a quantum black hole with
a mass in the millions of metric tons and a hellacious output of Hawking
radiation.

A 1g "gravitational annulus" doesn't seem to have much weapons potential,
unless you're dead-set on screwing with someone's solar sail or passive
sensor array....  Hmm....  That's how to fix those pesky nobles' solar
racing derby....  "Dry-fire port laser turret!"  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1277
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1278



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)
Re: Sports in Imperium
Asteroid gravity
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Black holes
Grav Ball
Traveller Chat
Re: Artificial vs. real gravity
Re: Giving the south AK47s
Re: Black holes
"Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)
FUDGEing Traveller Pt. 2 - Prob's
FUDGEing Traveller
Future Disasters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 20:07:58 -2900 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)

Quoth Erwin Fritz:
> However, the matter part of the pair should form inside the event
> horizon just as often as the antimatter. So, the black hole gains
> mass from the matter half of the pair and loses mass from the antimatter
> half. The net result is that the black hole is in equilibrium.
> 
> Have I missed something?

No, Brett Fishburne's explanation was incorrect.  After all, there is no
"matter" inside the black hole to disintegrate: just mass-energy, which
doesn't care what form it's in (matter, antimatter, photons) since it's
effectively inaccessible anyway.

I'm only an amateur physicist, but I'll try to make a bit more sense of
the whole high weirdness here.  The trick is that the particle-pair
production which starts this whole game results from the mass-energy of
the black hole itself and its stress on space.  Normally, a particle and
anti-particle would spontaneously emerge from the vacuum (energy -> mass),
hang around for a short time (read Feynman if you want to know _how_
long), and then annihilate each other (mass -> energy).  We're just
swapping around mass-energy counters and no one really minds. 

However, in some cases, one of the particle pair will fall inwards and,
due to conservation of energy, the other will be flung outwards.  Recall
that _both_ were created from the black hole's reservoir of energy.  So
even though it "gets" one, it created two -- for a net loss.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:01:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sports in Imperium

In a message dated 4/29/97 2:11:49 AM, you wrote:

<<> but
> somehow my zipfilewas corrupted, so I don't have all maps

That's a pity. If you want, I can send it to you again (and to 
anyone else who wants a copy).

Nick Law
nicklaw@cix.co.uk
>>

I Whould love top get a copy of this

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:51:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Asteroid gravity

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:59:22 -0700
> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>

> Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
> natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?  What's the
> approximate gravity on Ceres?  How does this vary on a long non-spherical
> object like a big asteroid?  What's the approximate natural gravity on,
> say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

   The surface gravity of any planet-sized object is PG = G * R * D
   where PG is the planetoid's gravity, G is the earth's gravity
   (10m/s^2), R is the radius (or diameter) of the planetoid in units of
   the radius (or diameter) of the earth (1 earth diameter = 8000 miles)
   and D is the density of the planetoid is units of the earth's
   density.

   The mean diameter of your rock is the cube root of 1km*0.5km*5km =
   1.4 km.  The diameter of the earth is 12,700km, so R is 0.0001. Let's
   say your rock is twice as dense as the earth (D=2), then the local
   gravity will average around PG = G * (0.0001)*2 = 0.0002 G.

   Obviously, any irregular body will have irregularities in its surface
   gravity.  Calculating exactly how certain irregularities will affect
   the mean gravity in certain spots is a very fun, slightly advanced,
   freshman physics problem that is just over the techie threshold of
   this list, IMHO.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:52:16 -0400
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

on 30 April, Mike Sellers asked about the gravitational fields on
non-spherical asteroids. The results of an excellent study of the shapes of
several non-spherical near earth asteroids by Scott Hudson is presented at 
http:/www.eecs.wsu.edu/~hudson/asteroids.html
The data are mostly from radar "imaging" of these objects as they passed
close to the Earth. To see an animation showing the gravitational field of
a non-spherical object, click on the link to "MPEG animations".

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:58:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Black holes

   Hi.

> I'm not a physicist so bear with me. If matter-antimatter pairs are
> constantly forming throughout the universe and if the antimatter
> part is on the inside of the event horizon, then I can see how the
> black hole would slowly evaporate.

> However, the matter part of the pair should form inside the event
> horizon just as often as the antimatter. So, the black hole gains
> mass from the matter half of the pair and loses mass from the antimatter
> half. The net result is that the black hole is in equilibrium.

> Have I missed something?

   Yup.

   Antimatter does not have negative mass.  It's mass and energy are
   both positive quantities.  So whether the black hole sheds matter or
   antimatter is irrelevent; it's losing mass either way.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:06:32 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Grav Ball

To the kind soul who emailed me his two files of Gravball rules and
counters (unfortunately, your message materialized right next to a black
hole and was sucked in ...): The .tif files aren't compatible with LView
Pro--it complains about entries not being sorted. Could you zap them to me
in .gif format, please?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 20:30:16 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

This week we will take a walk through history as Kevin Walsh, aka 
shadowcat, revisits High Guard.

Chat will begin on Thursday at 7:30pm CST on IG's IRC server, 
www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 and 6666.

I will be unable to attend again this week, as I have a pressing 
deadline just around the corner.  Hopefully, I will be able to join 
the group again the following Thursday.

As always, if you have any questions or wish to volunteer to lead a 
discussion, please email me.

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:55:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Artificial vs. real gravity

In a message dated 97-04-30 21:15:16 EDT, you write:

<< > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:36:45 -0400
 > From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
 > 
 > Would there be a difference in "natural" gravity and artificial gravity
that
 > one could detect? Would a grav plate be too regular are operate in waves/
 > pulses or some other means of detecting that one was in an artificial
environ-
 > ment and not on a planet? This has ramifications to an adventure I'm 
 > currently working on, so speak up people! >>

I can think of a problem that could occur, the artificial field begins to
weaken or malfunction causing serious somatosensory problems(i.e. dizzyness,
upset stomach, lack of balance, etc).   You could make it very severe to the
point of incapacitating the passengers or even violent enough to do serious
physical harm.  Just a thought.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:10:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Giving the south AK47s

At 09:02 PM 4/27/97 +1200, you wrote:
>At 23:21 26/04/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 17:26:31 +0100 (BST)
>>>From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>

>>This does not seem like Harry Harrison story - he has such a thing against
>>war that he writes it just terribly.  Could it possibly have been the
>>similarly named Harry Turtledove?
>
>It was definatly a Harry Harrison novel, as I remember it from about 10
>years ago (can't recall its name, though). IIRC it was more of a mystery or
>manhunt story than a war story, but I'm not sure.
>

You're talking about "A Rebel in Time."
I think it's by Fred Saberhagen, though
(I'd check, but it's in a box someplace).

JB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Black holes

> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:32:26 -0600
> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
> 
> I'm not a physicist so bear with me. If matter-antimatter pairs are
> constantly forming throughout the universe and if the antimatter
> part is on the inside of the event horizon, then I can see how the
> black hole would slowly evaporate.
> 
> However, the matter part of the pair should form inside the event
> horizon just as often as the antimatter. So, the black hole gains
> mass from the matter half of the pair and loses mass from the antimatter
> half. The net result is that the black hole is in equilibrium.
> 
> Have I missed something?

You've made a very common mistake -- assuming that antimatter has negative
mass.  It doesn't.  Nothing known to science has negative mass.  No matter
which half of a pair escapes the hole, the hole loses mass.

By the way, a stellar-mass black hole would take hundreds of billions of
years to evaporate via Hawking radiation, even if cut off from infalling
matter.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 06:17:05 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: "Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)

Here it is-- the April 30th 1997 listing for the "Citizens of TML".

If anyone wants to make any changes/additions, you can contact me
directly.  Currently, it is a ZIP'd up TXT file approximately 29KB
long (it could be shorter).  I had to make a few minor alterations to
reduce the size of the file.  Any submissions that would *reduce* the
size of this file would be greatly appreciated.

I may repost it a month or so down the road unless anybody strongly
objects.  I may even refine the list to only include those individuals
that are currently well known to the list (it all depends on how large
it gets).

It looks like Dave Golden created a monster :)


James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 97 01:13:42 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: FUDGEing Traveller Pt. 2 - Prob's

FUDGEing Traveller: Part 2 - Probability Analysis
=================================================

These probability analyses of FUDGE assume that modifiers are rolled 
using 4dF (4 Fudge dice, -1,0,+1) Other methods of rolling modifier 
levels are given in the FUDGE documents, section 3.22.

The FUDGE curve is centered on 0 (amazingly enough <grin>). Which makes 
it very easy for GM's to judge difficulty. The most likely result from 
just a straight throw of dice is 0. 

In FUDGEd Traveller (my version, at least) an Average skilled character 
is therefore someone with an attribute of 8 or 9 and a skill of 2. 
Typical task rolls fall in the Average to Formidible range.

As can be seen in the following table, FUDGEd Traveller holds up 
remarkably well to two popular Traveller Task Systems. Most probabilities 
are within 10% of the other systems for the samples shown. In the cases 
where they differ greatly, it is usually due to, IMHO, an artifact 
(shortcoming) of the other task systems.

I believe that the FUDGEd probabilities are the best for three main 
reasons: (1) Since only one bell curve is used, probabilities are 
consistant. Players can visualize relatively easily differences in Task 
levels, and ability modifiers. (2) Peak of the curve is always set to be 
at the median value. Each GM can determine median and transform to taste 
according to style of game desired. (3) Transformation of the curve is 
consistant and open-ended. Nothing is impossible!

To save time and space, I haven't calculated unskilled character 
probabilities or done analysis of spectacular success or failure.


TABLE 2: FUDGE Roll Probabilities for Traveller characters [1]
================================================================
                              Avg   Diff  For   Sta   Hop   Imp
Attribute   Skill Lv    Mod   (-1)  (0)   (+1)  (+2)  (+3)  (+4)
- ---------   --------    ---   ---   ----  ----  ----  ----  ----
 4 (-2)      1  (-1)    -3     18     6     1     0     0     0
 8 (0)       1  (-1)    -1     62    38    18     6     1     0
12 (+2)      1  (-1)    +1     94    82    62    38    18     6
15 (+3)      1  (-1)    +2     99    94    82    62    38    18
 4 (-2)      2  (0)     -2     38    18     6     1     0     0
12 (+2)      2  (0)     +2     99    94    82    62    38    18
15 (+3)      2  (0)     +3    100    99    94    82    62    38
 4 (-2)     3-4 (+1)    -1     62    38    18     6     1     0
 8 (0)      3-4 (+1)    +1     94    82    62    32    18     6
15 (+3)     3-4 (+1)    +4    100   100    99    94    82    62
 4 (-2)     5-6 (+2)     0     82    62    38    18     6     1
 8 (0)      5-6 (+2)    +2     99    94    82    62    38    18
12 (+2)     5-6 (+2)    +4    100   100    99    94    82    62
15 (+3)     5-6 (+2)    +5    100   100   100    99    94    82
================================================================
Attribute: Traveller Attribute (STR,INT, etc.) shown with equivalent 
FUDGE level.
Skill Lv: Traveller Skill Level (eg. Perception-1, Pilot-3) shown with 
equivalent FUDGE level.
Mod: Attribute + Skill = Task roll modifier.
Avg-Imp: Traveller Task roll equivalents, with percentage chance of 
success.

[1] This is a sampling of Attribute and Skill combinations, I haven't
    yet checked all combinations, but this is the sample I used to check 
    FUDGE rolls against T4D and KBv2.0 Task systems.


TABLE 3: FUDGE comparison with Traveller Deluxe Task System
===========================================================
                  TASK ROLL:  Avg   Diff  For   Hop   Imp [1]
Attribute   Skill Lv    Mod   (-1)  (0)   (+1)  (+3)  (+4)
- ---------   --------    ---   ---   ----  ----  ----  ----
 4 (-2)      1  (-1)    -3      2     1    -1     0     0
 8 (0)       1  (-1)    -1    -13    -8    -9    -5    -1 [2]
12 (+2)      1  (-1)    +1     -6   -12   -15   -17    -4 [2]
15 (+3)      1  (-1)    +2     -1    -6   -15   -30   -13 [2]
 4 (-2)      2  (0)     -2     10     8     1    -1     0
12 (+2)      2  (0)     +2     -1    -5    -4    -8     2
15 (+3)      2  (0)     +3      0    -1    -5   -16    -3 [2]
 4 (-2)     3-4 (+1)    -1      2     7     1    -2     0
 8 (0)      3-4 (+1)    +1     -6    -4    -3    -7     0
15 (+3)     3-4 (+1)    +4      0     0    -1   -10     0
 4 (-2)     5-6 (+2)     0     -5     1     0    -4    -1
 8 (0)      5-6 (+2)    +2     -1    -5    -4    -8     2
12 (+2)     5-6 (+2)    +4      0     0    -1    -4    11
15 (+3)     5-6 (+2)    +5      0     0     0    -4     2
===========================================================
Columns as in TABLE 3. Percentage difference between FUDGE probabilities 
and T4D probabilities are shown. Negative means FUDGE roll success is 
*less* likely than T4D.

[1] For this table, FUDGE Hopeless Tasks were correlated with Staggering
    T4D Task Probabilities.
[2] This is an interesting and desired result. High attributes aren't
    overpowered as in the T4D Task system.


TABLE 3: FUDGE comparison with KBv2.0 Task System
===========================================================
                  TASK ROLL:  Avg   Diff  Sta   Hop   Imp [1]
Attribute   Skill Lv    Mod   (-1)  (0)   (+2)  (+3)  (+4)
- ---------   --------    ---   ---   ----  ----  ----  ----
 4 (-2)      1  (-1)    -3    -10     1     0     0     0
 8 (0)       1  (-1)    -1    -13     1    -4    -1     0
12 (+2)      1  (-1)    +1     -6    -2    -6     3     2
15 (+3)      1  (-1)    +2     -1    -4   -14    -2     4
 4 (-2)      2  (0)     -2     10     9     0     0     0
12 (+2)      2  (0)     +2     -1     3     6    16    12
15 (+3)      2  (0)     +3      0    -1    -2    12    17
 4 (-2)     3-4 (+1)    -1      2    12     1     0     0
 8 (0)      3-4 (+1)    +1     -6     8     4     8     4
15 (+3)     3-4 (+1)    +4      0     0    -1    13    26 [2]
 4 (-2)     5-6 (+2)     0     -5    12     2     3     1
 8 (0)      5-6 (+2)    +2     -1     3     6    16    12
12 (+2)     5-6 (+2)    +4      0     0     4    22    34 [2]
15 (+3)     5-6 (+2)    +5      0     0     0     9    27 [2]
===========================================================
Columns as in TABLE 3. Percentage difference between FUDGE probabilities 
and T4D probabilities are shown. Negative means FUDGE roll success is 
*less* likely than T4D.

[1] In KBv2.0, Formidible task probabilities more closely match
    Staggering probabilities in FUDGE.  Staggering probabilities in
    KBv2.0 were correlated with Hopeless (+3) fudge rolls.
[2] Before clamouring "Wow, it's easy to do impossible things!" remember
    that in KBv2.0, 6D6 and 7D6 are used for these high difficulty
    tasks. This makes the probability for success fall off *rapidly*.
    Be aware that Impossible isn't a literal designation. The beauty of
    FUDGE is that it is open-ended. If something is very very difficult
    have the character roll an "Impossible+2" task. 


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 97 01:13:34 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: FUDGEing Traveller

FUDGEing Traveller: A New Task System for Traveller
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   INTRO
   
      Many people here on the TML have a problem with the Traveller =
4th Edition task system as written. (I don't remember hearing one =
person happy with the unmodified version) 

      Kenneth Bearden's system, KBv2.0 is an admirable fix which =
changes as little as possible of the system in order to make it =
workable. Ken has succeeded in his task of making the system work, =
but there are still some disadvantages. Namely, lots of dice (meaning =
lots of addition and slower play), big target numbers, and being a =
"close-ended" system like its predecessor.

      Others have advocated a return to the MT Task system, which =
gives little value to attributes. I don't think even a modified =
version can be made elegant. Modifying the roll is a little too =
arbitrary, and there is an unintuitive success "scale".

      Glenn Grant has his own D66 system, but I'm sorry Glenn, I find =
it quite difficult to think in base-6 math. <grin> I've heard many =
other systems come and go on the TML with varying advantages and =
disadvantages. 

      The other day I happened upon this FUDGE thing on the internet. =
FUDGE stands for "Freeform Universal Do-it-yourself Gaming Engine". =
It is a complete, free of charge, role-playing framework upon which =
to build a game. I was immediately struck by the elegance of the =
system, and its complete customizability. Eris and other heretics =
will *love* this system, and I encourage everyone to look into it. =
I'm sure many of the learn=E9d members of this list are already =
familiar with it.

      I searched past TML archives to see if anyone else has done =
work with FUDGE and Traveller. All I could find was one post by Bruce =
Johnson, who basically just mentioned it. Converting the Traveller =
Task system to FUDGE turned out to be too easy. Even more =
surprisingly, the results seemed to fit nicely with not only the =
current T4 Deluxe task system, but Ken's system as well!

   WHY FUDGE?
   
      This document is a compilation of my take on FUDGEing the =
Traveller Task System. I tried to do it in a way that gives similar =
task roll results, and I expect it to easily replace the current =
system with little effort.

      FUDGE task rolls are *very* quick, requiring no addition, =
subtraction, multiplication, or division. (All you do is count the =
dice) It requires only 4 six-sided dice. It is open ended; difficulty =
can be increased ad infinitum. It uses just one bell curve which is =
adjusted for ability and situation. All-in-all, it's the most elegant =
and intuitive task system I've seen.

      I am also thinking of FUDGE-related changes to Traveller =
combat, but I will deal with that in a future post. 

      Firstly, I'm going to cover the legal part...

   ABOUT FUDGE
   FUDGE is a role-playing game written by Steffan O'Sullivan, with
   extensive input from the Usenet community of rec.games.design.  The
   basic rules of FUDGE are available on the internet via anonymous =
ftp
   at ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, and in book form or on disk from Grey
   Ghost Games, P.O. Box 838, Randolph, MA 02368.  They may be used
   with any gaming genre.  While an individual work derived from FUDGE
   may specify certain attributes and skills, many more are possible
   with FUDGE.  Every Game Master using FUDGE is encouraged to add or
   ignore any character traits.  Anyone who wishes to distribute such
   material for free may do so - merely include this ABOUT FUDGE =
notice
   and disclaimer (complete with FUDGE copyright notice).  If you wish
   to charge a fee for such material, other than as an article in a
   magazine or other periodical, you must first obtain a royalty-free
   license from the author of FUDGE, Steffan O'Sullivan, P.O. Box 465,
   Plymouth, NH 03264.

   DISCLAIMER
   The following materials based on FUDGE, entitled "FUDGEing =
Traveller"
   are created and (c) Copyright 1997 by Glenn Hoppe, and are not
   authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any
   publisher of other FUDGE materials. Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or =
any
   publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for the
   content of these materials. Original FUDGE materials (c) Copyright
   1992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved.
    
   REFERENCE      
   Here and there in this document I will reference the original FUDGE
   documents. They can be found at various places on the Internet,
   including <http://oz.plymouth.edu/~gaming/fudfaq.html>

   SYNOPSIS OF FUDGE MECHANICS

      There is more than one way to roll the dice in FUDGE, [see =
FUDGE section 4.2 for details] I will deal with the main (and IMHO) =
most elegant one, denoted as 4dF where F stands for "FUDGE die".

      A FUDGE die is a 6 sided die with two red sides (value -1), two =
white sides (value 0), and two green sides (value 1). TRAVELLER fans =
with too many d3's can use them D3-2 to give -1,0,+1 values. <grin> =
One can easily take a standard D6 and use red and green markers to =
create the dice.

      Rolling them is simple. Roll the dice, and remove (-1) and (+1) =
dice in pairs until you can no longer do so. Count the remaining dice =
for your result.

      For Example: I roll and get -1,-1,0,+1. I remove the -1 and +1 =
dice and have a result of -1. If you are able to add integers up to =
4, the removal step is optional <grin>.

      FUDGE attributes and rolls are measured on a scale from -3 to =
+3, each level is given a name for ease of description. (eg. my =
character has Mediocre strength but Great dexterity)

      It is a simple matter to convert Traveller Attributes and =
Skills to FUDGE equivalents. The FUDGE levels can be marked on the =
character sheet for future reference using either the level names or =
numerical equivalent. The way I have converted Traveller values is =
shown in TABLE 1. This is by no means the only way, or even the =
*right* way, but it is the way I feel best fits Traveller assumptions.


TABLE 1: FUDGE Vital Statistics and Traveller Conversion
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D                               
FUDGE                                     Equivalent    - Traveller -
Level             Pctile   4dF   Prob+    T4 Task       Attrb   Skill
- --------          ------   ---   -----    ----------    -----   ----- =
 
                            -4    100%    Automatic         

Terrible          1-3       -3     99     Easy             2    None
                                                           3
Poor              4-10      -2     94     Routine [2]      4      0
                                                           5      
Mediocre          11-30     -1     82     Average          6      1
                                                           7      
Fair              31-70      0     62     Difficult        8      2
                                                           9      
Good              71-90     +1     38     Formidible      10      3
                                                          11      4 =
[4]
Excellent [1]     91-97     +2     18     Staggering [3]  12      5
                                                          13      6 =
[4]
Superb            98-100    +3      6     Hopeless [3]    14      7
                                                          15      8 =
[4]
                            +4      1     Impossible              9
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Explanation
- -----------
FUDGE Level: Descriptive level from the FUDGE system.
Pctile: Rough Percentile conversion of attributes. I used this to =
justify my approximation of 2d6 Traveller attributes. (see FUDGE =
section 6.11)
4dF: 4 Fudge dice (-1,0,+1), giving a value ranging from -4 to +4.
Prob+: Probability of rolling FUDGE level or greater on 4DF
Equivalent T4 Task: Traveller task level approximating 4dF roll. Note =
that there is no reason to use these names in a FUDGE Traveller game, =
(just say "Make a Mediocre task roll" or "Roll Superb+1" instead of =
an Impossible task) they are shown here for conversion of T4 =
adventures, or to keep that Traveller "feel".
Traveller Attrb: Attribute equivalent to FUDGE level.
Traveller Skill: Skill equivalent to FUDGE level.

[1] Actual FUDGE name is "Great". I chose to change it to Excellent so
    that the first letter of each name is unique.
[2] No Traveller equivallent at this FUDGE level. I have chosen =
ROUTINE
    as the new Traveller Task name.
[3] The probability of a Staggering Task Roll in Marc's revised
    ("Traveller Deluxe") task system is 12%, which puts it between
    "Great" and "Superb" FUDGE rolls. I think that Hopeless sounds
    "worse" than Staggering, so I chose to insert it as a new Task =
name
    just before Impossible. 
[4] Don't get discouraged about Skill levels 3+4, 5+6, and 7+8 being
    equivalent. I adjusted the curve to match more closely the current
    Traveller task system. For combat tasks, skills 4, 6 and 8 will =
have
    a bonus for more "graduation" [a future post will explain further;
    if you can't wait, see FUDGE section 4.36] 


THE FUDGE-IFIED TRAVELLER TASK ROLL
- -----------------------------------

      The main alteration that I have made to FUDGE with respect to =
Traveller is its determination of what "trait" to roll against. In =
FUDGE, the GM determines only *one* trait that the player rolls =
against. To keep in better "step" with T4, I decided that in FUDGEd =
Traveller, the player rolls against an Attribute *and* a Skill.

DEFAULT SKILL

      In Traveller, the FUDGE level for someone who is completely =
untrained (ie. no skill) is Terrible (-3), instead of Poor as it is =
in the official FUDGE documents. Traveller Default Skills (ie. skills =
with a possible level-0) can be used at a Poor Level (-2).

UNOPPOSED ACTIONS
    
      To roll a FUDGE Traveller task, the GM sets a difficulty level. =
(Difficult is most common) Roll 4dF and add your appropriate FUDGE =
Traveller Attribute as well as the appropriate FUDGE Skill Level. =
Compare the result with the task difficulty. If it is equal or =
greater than the difficulty, you succeed.

      EXAMPLE:
      Captain Jamison (UPP 879C9A) wants to hack into the local =
public library. The GM decides that this is a Difficult task against =
his Education and Computer skill. Adding EDU 9 (0) and Computer-1 =
(-1) FUDGE levels gives 0. He adds his roll: -1,+1,0,+1 for a total =
of +1. Comparing that to a Difficult task (0) means that he has =
succeeded.

OPPOSED ROLLS

      Sometimes, another player or NPC's skills and attributes are =
relevant to the success of the Task. In that case, each player rolls =
against the relevant Skill and Attribute. The results are compared, =
and the higher level suceeds. If the rolls are equal, status quo is =
maintained.

      EXAMPLE:
      Captain Jamison tries to forge a document needed to secure =
passage to a high-law level world. He gives the document to a clerk. =
The GM rules that the clerks knowledge of Law is relevant to detect =
this kind of forgery. Jamison rolls a -1 on 4dF and compares it to =
his Forgery-2 (0) and Intelligence C (+2) for a total of (+1). The =
clerk's Law-1 (-1) and Education A (+1) mean that he must roll +1 =
uncover the scam.
      In most situations, NPC's attributes and skills will determine =
the level of success required; the GM need not roll for them.

      Opposed roles are important in hand to hand combat. I will go =
over the rules in a future post, see FUDGE documents for details.

SPECTACULAR SUCCESS/FAILURE

      Any unmodified roll of -4 or +4 is spectacular failure or =
success. Also, if any roll exceeds or fails the difficulty by 4 =
levels or more, it is a spectacular failure or success.

      Option: Instead of automatic spectacular success on natural +4, =
treat it as an additional roll. Player rolls 4dF again. If the result =
is positive, he adds it to his previous roll. A final result 4 levels =
greater than the target is spectacular success. This option also =
allows a character to succeed at tasks that are theoretically =
impossible.

      EXAMPLE:
      Captain Jamison is trying to crash land his ship in a hostile, =
windy atmosphere. It is ruled a Hopeless (+3) task, which even if =
successful will result in damage to the ship. Undaunted, Jamison =
rolls a natural +4. Wow! He rolls again with a result of +3! He adds =
+4+3 to his DEX 7 (-1) and Pilot-3 (+1) for a result of +7. =
Amazingly, Jamison manages to land his Free Trader without a scratch.

JACK-OF-ALL TRADES

      To use JOT skill, make a Difficult roll against the skill only. =
If the roll is successfull, add 1 to the skill roll upon which JOT is =
to be applied. If the JOT roll is spectacular success, add 2.

      On a spectacular failure, the character discovers he knows much =
less than he thought, and subtracts 1 from the skill roll upon which =
he applied JOT.
      
      SEE NEXT POST for FUDGE Probability discussion.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Glenn Hoppe =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ /--- =
MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Eschew =
Obfuscation =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:03:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Future Disasters

Just sticking to natural disasters, there are a lot of adventure
possibilities...

Pandemic disease, such as Ebola filovirus. The characters are stuck in the
hot zone. Planetary defence troops are keeping the panic-stricken populace
from escaping through the cordon sanitaire. Life (while it lasts) becomes
reminiscent of a Joseph Conrad novel...

Vast avalanche, causing a 'long run-out': a hotly-debated geological
phenomenon in which a massive amount of rock speeds away from the base of
the collapsed zone at amazing speeds - over 120km/hr in some cases. Perhaps
caused by debris floating on a compressed layer of air, or by accoustic
friction-damping (vibration can cause sand to liquify - might do weird
things to big chunks of rock, too), or by partial liquification of the
ground below the avalanche. Long run-outs from at  the edge of the Olympus
Mons plateau on Mars have covered areas half the size of the United States.
This can be bad for your real estate investments...

Vast avalanche on a volcanic sea-mount, causing unspeakably huge tsunamis
on a global scale. This is quite likely to happen when (not if: *when*) the
unstable expansion zone on the coast of Hawaii collapses into the sea.
Could happen any time. Have a nice day!

Catastrophic planetary surface renewal. Analysis of the Magellan Venus
radar mapping data show that virtually the entire planet's surface is of
equal age. The whole surface is about 500,000 years old. Venus probably has
a thick crust, preventing heat from escaping from the interior; it builds
up, and builds up, until eventually the entire surface starts to crack
apart and melts into a planet-wide sea of magma. Pretty cool, eh? Sounds
like what happened to the planet Genesis in Trek 3. Happens to Venus every
half-billion years, according to the theory. But this is another hotly
debated phenomenon - some experts think Venus has a thin crust. We await a
penetrometer/seismology mission to find out for sure.

Ice surge. Ice ages don't take centuries to get rolling. They can jump into
high gear in a matter of decades, possibly in just a few years! Ocean
levels drop by over 50 meters, exposing the continental shelves. Species
die off in droves. Vast areas turn into cold deserts. Glaciers roll over
the landscape at incredible rates. Skidoo sales boom.

Ocean level rise. The planet enters a hothouse phase. Again, the rapidity
of such transitions can be a matter of decades or mere years. Polar ice
caps become unstable, collapse, and break up. Ocean levels climb rapidly,
gaining 50 meters or more. Vast areas inundated by epicontinental seas.
Humidity climbs to unendurable levels, and everything from clothing to
paper starts to rot. Rain belts sit permanently over the tropics. The price
of galoshes soars.

Volcanic Chorus. One of my favourites, 'cause we might actually be causing
this to happen, any decade now! If the polar ice sheets collapse, this
relieves a lot of pressure on the previously covered ground. The earth
starts to bounce back (it's called 'isostatic rebound'). Magma starts
flowing through newly-opened passages and... BOOM, BAAMMM, KABLOOM! Whole
mountain ranges start to explode into hyperactive volcanism. This has
happened on Earth - fortunately before we came along. Imagine all the dust
being pumped into the atmosphere. The sunsets would be incredibly
beautiful... something nice to look at as you freeze to death.
 
Galactic gas and dust clouds. The Sol system is currently passing through a
sparse gaseous cloud known as the 'Local Fluff'. Most of it's too thin to
notice, but at intervals over next 200,000 years, we will likely pass
through some dense cloud cores. These will suppress the solar wind, and
dust will accrete to solar surface, altering Terran climate - either colder
(by blocking solar infall) or hotter (by stoking the solar furnace), it's
hard to say. Maybe the temperature will fluctuate wildly. Time to buy a
good thermostat.

Neaby supernova. A neighboring star goes boom. Radiation might be a
problem. Gravitic shockwaves might have unpredictable effects on the Oort
Cloud cometaries...

Galactic plasma streams. Not terribly likely, even in the timeframe of the
Imperium, but if you're playing in the very far future.... The Galactic
Nucleus becomes active, pumping out huge streamers of plasma, some of which
might swoop down across the galactic disc. Hey, you never know...

Spontaneous natural nuclear reactions. A river is eroding its way through
an old mountain range. It's sweeping up uranium particles and slowly
depositing them onto the river's delta where it empties into the sea. What
a great spot for a resort community - nice beaches, fishing, waterskiing,
scuba diving... Did the colonists bother to do a complete geological
survey? Did they notice those interesting uranium depositions? Will a small
seismic disturbance cause an undersea landslide and a sudden critical mass
reaction? Tune in next week and find out...

Fun universe we live in, isn't it?

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1278
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1279



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Future Disasters
Re: Disasters
Re: Some techincal questions
Re: Next THUDDD ship class
Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Next THUDDD ship class
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question
K'kree Character Generation System - Part III
K'kree Character Generation System- Part IV
K'kree Character Generation System - Part II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:23:16 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
> 
> Per Bernhardsson wrote:
> >Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> >(1) Well, they can be stolen...
> >(2)(3)Means it must be easy to use.
> >(4)It has to be stolen close to the use time.
> >(5)Shielding (see 8).
> >(6)Pressurechamber + antigrav unit, it would be expensive,  but it would
> >probably work.
> >(7)Shielding (see 8).
> >(8)A small timed radio transmitter placed within the shielding.
> 
> What a job!

Not too much for terrorists though.

> >I think terrorists could probably use it, but they would have to be
> >pretty good at what they do.
> 
> I surely think that it would be easier to steal a military nuke than to
> convert a mining nuke as a weapon.
> OTOH, this is a good common adventure seed. "Track the mining nuke thieves!"

The military will probably have better security than normal companies
though, at least around the nukes.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:30:06 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Future Disasters

I hadn't been following this thread too closely so I may have missed
someone mentioning it but those interested might find the following useful:

A Choice of Catastrophes by Isaac Asimov
London: Hutchinson, 1979
365pp, Index,
0 09 141240 4

In it he details a whole raft of catastrophes and grades them in classes
according to how 'cosmic' they are.
From the biggest which destroy the whole universe, through catastrophes for
 our solar system, down to continental
scale disasters.  Can't recall how small he goes as I'm still somewhere in
the middle of Class II.

I don't have the book handy today but if anyone needs to know more, let me
know.

HTH

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:55:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disasters

In mail you write:

> KC Komolsky asks about 57th century disasters.
>  
> Here are a few ideas:
> Orbital satellite losing orbit/crashing to earth

This is a *way* oberworked theme in SF. The *moon* is a satellite.
Satellites "lose orbit" due to air drag (if they are in very low
orbits) or due to some force *pushing* them out of orbit.

With Traveller tech, the only low orbit satellites are going to be comm
relays for phone systems (like the Motorola Iridium system) and they
won't make it to the ground. Just about everything else is either
better suited to "high" orbits, or will work ok from them.

So other than the phone relays, the satellites will be in orbits that
are stable for *centuries. And "dead" satellites will be removed or
repaired anyway.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:24:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

In mail you write:

>>Hmmm... I was lead to believe that nuclear dampers operate by either
>>weakening or reinforcing the nuclear bonds within the fissile
>>materials (by increasing or decreasing the number of neutrons released
>>so that the textbook "chain reaction" necessary to create the
>>explosion cannot take place).
>>
>>How would this effect be used to prevent a fusion reaction, which I
>>believe relies on high pressure/heat?  Are the release of neutrons
>>essential to a fusion reaction?
>
>       Fusion reactions don't care about high pressure or heat, per se. That's
> just the only way we know* of overcoming the strong nuclear force enough to
> force two hydrogen nuclei (for example) to "stick" together. From the MT
> Referee's Manual, nuclear dampers "project a series of nodes and anti-nodes
> where the strong nuclear force is enhanced or degraded, rendering nuclear
> warheads ineffective."

Half right.

We use the heat and pressure to overcome the *electromagnetic
repulsion* between the nuclei. At high temps and pressures, the nuclei
hit hard enough when they crash "into" each other that *in spite* of
the repulsion, they get close enough for the strong nuclear force to
pull them together.

Make the nuclear force stronger, and you can lower the temp/pressure
required for fusion. Make it weaker and you raise it.

Fission has nucleui coming apart, because they are only marginally
stable. Increasing the nuclear force stabilizes the heavy nuclei, and
thus makes fission less likely. Decreasing it make fission more likely.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:34:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Next THUDDD ship class

In mail you write:

>         Unless, of course, we were to come up with requirements for the
> Imperial Yacht Match Racing Association Ardunia's Cup-class racing yacht.
> However, given that we'd be optimizing for speed and nothing else, I don't
> think that the design systems provide fine enough resolution for us to
> actually compete; we'd probably all wind up with more or less identical
> designs.

Grab a copy of the rules governing "12 meter" sailboats. Then try to
figure out something equivalent for use by spacecraft of some sort...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:54:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

In mail, bmac@astro.ucla.edu writes:

>>Deceleration should be "reversed" acceleration.
> It could be, but there's no fundamental reason why it has to be. Your 
> acceleration
> goes down with increasing velocity due to conservation of energy, right? 
> If you're *decelerating* relative to your "anchor" mass you're *losing*
> kinetic energy (which presumably your power plant disappates as heat or 
> something) and hence not limited by the power input. (In fact, you 
> could design a mechanism to store the energy - regenerative braking for
> starships!)

Only trouble is, the energy from decelerating *has* to be handled some
way. And doing so as waste heat *won't* work. Do the calcs. You'll find
that the ship goes up in a puff of vapor. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:14:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

In mail you write:

>>Sorry, but if you are talking km-sized or bigger bodies at a range of a
>>few (1-5?) light seconds, forget it. A normal ship's radar *will* pick
>>them up. If it couldn't, it couldn't detect ships at the more normal
>>ranges.
>
>  Don't forget that radar tapers of at the inverse of range^4. Ten times the
> range requires 10 000 times larger reflective area. You may still be right
> of course, just wanted to point that out.

I *did* remember the inverse fourth power law. But since I also didn't
bother doing any calcs, let's just check it out...

1 km x 1 km is 1e6 m^2. And we know that radars can pick up a 1 m^2
target at 150 km. Maybe even at 1500.

dist (km)	signal	a1	a2	a3
- ---------	------	-----	-----	-----
  1.5e6		1	1e16	1e12	1e8
150e3		1e4	1e12	1e8	1e4
 15e3		1e8	1e8	1e4	1
  1.5e3		1e12	1e4	1	
150		1e16	1
 15		1e20
  1.5		1e24

Hmmm... 1e12 is a 1000 km body. 1e8 is a 10 km body. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:37:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

In mail you write:

> * disgruntled power plant employees causing local fusion plant to go boom
> (dunno how possible or big a bang this would get you)

Making a fission *or* fusion power plant go "boom" is in the same
league as making a coal-fired power plant go "boom". It's *possible*,
but only by taking the fuel and doing things with it that the power
plant *can't* do.

Fusion requires heat & pressure to maintain the reaction (or a nuclear
damper in "enhance" mode).

Fission can go on it's own, but requires an outside agency to keep the
fissionable material close enough together for *long* enough to go
"boom" (assuming the fissionables are pure enough, only Navy reactors
use fuel that pure). What happens without rather *enormous* forces to
confine the fissioning material is that it develops just enough energy
to scatter the fissionables enough that the reaction can't continue.
This is not nice for the people nearby, but it won't bother folks more
than a few tens of yards away.

Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
"boom". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:44:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Next THUDDD ship class

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>>       Unless, of course, we were to come up with requirements for the
>> Imperial Yacht Match Racing Association Ardunia's Cup-class racing yacht.
>> However, given that we'd be optimizing for speed and nothing else, I don't
>> think that the design systems provide fine enough resolution for us to
>> actually compete; we'd probably all wind up with more or less identical
>> designs.
>  I don't think QSDS/SSDS has rules for this(Yet another reason why I still
> use FF&S :), but why not make solar sail racing yachts? *that* would be a
> great little touch to have your players run into a ragatta of solar racing
> yachts(And so very imperical). If you were careful with it, they really
> woulden't be that expensive(And with M:0, you'd have tons of new
> billionares with nothing to do)

These racers should be exempt from the normal minimum AV. They won't be
going all that fast, and if a solar flare is detected, the race is
canceled and ships rush out to pick up the racers before the radiation
gets there (solar flares are a hazard from the *particle* radiation,
mostly protons, which move well under lightspeed. Typical lag is
*hours*). Of course, they'll have to jettison the sail (ouch! that
ain't cheap) so that the rest of the racer can be taken aboard the
rescue ship.

Also, solar sails are great for bulk cargo movement. Simple automated
sail handling gear attached to a frame that canm hold a few thousand
tons of cargo. Maybe as much as a million. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:56:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

In mail you write:

> It would go a lot deeper than that.  Small theme parks would be
> tailored to the history of that world, while larger theme parks would
> be built around concepts that perhaps an entire subsector shared.

And don't forget that there are actually *religious* theme parks! 

> "Amusement" parks aren't generally theme-related like "theme" parks,
> thereby offering much more flexibility.  IMHO, amusement parks would
> be heavier on bone-wrenching rides such as rollercoasters, gravity
> rooms, 3D bumper cars, etc. than theme parks, which would concentrate
> more on patrons actually interacting with the theme.

An old time favorite that barely survives nowdays in the "carnivals"
that travel from town to town is the "fun house". High tech offers some
interesting possibilities. For instance holograms can add to the
"haunted house" stuff, and to the "fun house mirror" stuff. Gravity
control can make the old standby of "crooked rooms" even stranger. 

For those not familiar with that last one, they are rooms where the
floor isn't level, the walls aren't vertical, and they tend to have
things in them that make you wonder just which way *is* down. The one I
remember from when I was a kid had a trough with water flowing down it.
And right next to it a V shaped trough with big steel balls rolling in
the *opposite* direction. But both appeared to be *level* (or at least
as close as you could tell, given the room). 

I can see people walking into a room only to find themselves inside a
reproduction of M.C. Esher's "Relativity", or at least a room where
some other people are walking across the ceiling!.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question

> From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
> Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments
> 
> >Also, someone asked why I had 38 gunners (a fair question), which was 
> >more than the entire crew of some other entries... so, someone, tell 
> >me where I went wrong here.
> 
> >20 light & heavy laser turrets   -   20 gunners 
> >4 missle turrets                 -    4 gunners 
> >2 sandacsters                    -    2  "
> >1 nuclear damper                 -    1  "
> >11 MFDs                          -   11  " (on the bridge) 
> >                                   ------
> >                                     38
> 
>      As you have installed MFDs for the lasers and missiles (I assume), 
> you can get rid of the individual gunners for those weapons., That gives 
> you a reduction of 24. Otherwise these figures look OK.

Hmmm. According the the PDF version of SSDS, this simply isn't true.
the only statement about gunnery crew sizes (the only statement AT ALL
ANYWHERE mind you - I just went through it again) is:

 "Meson gun and particle accelerator crews are also affected by
  automation. Divide the crew numbers listed in the tables by the
  weapon automation factor: low=1, standard=1.7, or high=2.8"

I think that the way you've interpreted it makes sense, James, but
unfortuately it's not how the rules read. :(

The way I picture it working is that there always has to be a turret
gunner. However, if they're just left to their own devices, they'll
shoot at whatever they feel like, so they aren't very efficient. Thus,
on the bridge, we have a centralized console tracking targets and
assigning a single target to a group of turrets - that's the purpose
of the master fire director (MFD). Manpower intensize yes, but I don't
see any other way to do it - starships in Traveller are not all that
automated when it comes to gunnery... I guess *shrug*.

What I'd really like is for Guy or whoever designed SSDS to set me straight.
I think I'll Cc: him.

> >standard automation, just like me! What gives??? I'm also the only 
> >person who listed 'Maintenance' crew - are they supposed to be rolled 
> >into Engineering?
> 
>      In Starship Assembly Line, I have maintenance crew separate, but 
> from memory it takes a lot of equipment to need maintenance crew. I 
> haven't got starships with me though, so I can't give you a definite 
> answer. Try running your design through SAL, and see what sort of crew 
> you get. 

Good idea. I'll try that. (BTW, killer program that Starship Assembly Line.
I like it a lot).

Thanks,
Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:46:08 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockettwrites

>I seem to recall that a 1g "annular confinement pulse" did
>the trick very nicely

THat's right - the field only has to produce tenth-of-arcsecond deflections
over light-seconds of travel, so it can be relatively weak. 

I was one of the orignal proponents of this. Once nice side effect is that
although the pulse is too weak to damage anything (other than, as Jospeh says,
a solar sail) you can handwave that it's big enough to slightly rattle a 
small ship - laser near-misses would produce a "whoom" noise as the grav pulse
goes by your hull, which is a nice effect in space combat. HIgh TL non-grav
X-ray lasers wouldn't produce such a noise, which makes them more frightening
to innocent players in their TL-12 trader...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:00:29 +0000
From: "Doctor Vince" <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question

> Good idea. I'll try that. (BTW, killer program that Starship Assembly Line.
> I like it a lot).

*perk* Starship Assembly Line? Where would one find such a thing?

Vince 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:01:57 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: K'kree Character Generation System - Part III

Well-Born

1. Physical
  1. -1 Str
  2. +1 Dex
  3. +1 Dex
  4. +1 End
  5. Polearm
  6. Brawling

2. Mental
  1. Technical
  2. Science
  3. Research
  4. Tolerance
  5. First Aid
  6. Perception

3. Educational
  1. Business
  2. Spacecraft
  3. Law
  4. Gravitics
  5. Bureaucracy
  6. Jack-of-all-Trades

4. Social
  1. Charisma
  2. Streetwise
  3. Gambling
  4. Tolerance
  5. Carousing
  6. +1 Caste

5. Career - Trader
  1. Business
  2. Spacecraft
  3. Business
  4. Diplomacy
  5. Language
  6. Tolerance

5. Career - Technician
  1. Technical
  2. Technical
  3. Medical
  4. Science
  5. Computer
  6. Engineering

6. Background
  1. Polearm
  2. Craftsman
  3. Brawling
  4. Grav Craft
  5. Performance
  6. Forgery


Servant Warrior

1. Physical
  1. +1 Str
  2. +1 Dex
  3. +1 End
  4. Enclosure
  5. Gun Combat
  6. Polearm

2. Mental
  1. Camoflague
  2. Survival
  3. Demolitions
  4. First Aid
  5. Recon
  6. Computer

3. Educational
  1. Battle Dress
  2. Forward Observer
  3. Heavy Weapons
  4. Environmental Combat
  5. Vacc Suit
  6. Technical

4. Social
  1. Carousing
  2. Streetwise
  3. Intimidation
  4. Gambling
  5. Interrogation
  6. +1 Caste

5. Career - Space
  1. Gunnery
  2. Gunnery
  3. Enclosure
  4. Ship's Boat
  5. Vacc Suit
  6. Gun Combat

5. Career - Surface
  1. Gun Combat
  2. Gun Combat
  3. Enclosure
  4. Aircraft
  5. Artillery
  6. Battle Dress

6. Background
  1. Stealth
  2. Ground Vehicle
  3. Athletics
  4. Brawling
  5. Clandestine
  6. Grav Craft




K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:02:13 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: K'kree Character Generation System- Part IV

Servant

1. Physical
  1. -1 Int
  2. +1 Str
  3. +1 End
  4. +1 End
  5. Brawling
  6. Throwing

2. Mental
  1. Technical
  2. Science
  3. Forgery
  4. Perception
  5. Grav craft
  6. Computer

3. Educational
  1. Bribery
  2. Survival
  3. Ground Vehicle
  4. Enclosure
  5. Jack-of-all-Trades
  6. +1 Int

4. Social
  1. Carousing
  2. Streetwise
  3. Streetwise
  4. Gambling
  5. Fast Talk
  6. Performance

5. Career - Labourer
  1. +1 Str
  2. streetwise
  3. Grav Vehicle
  4. Ground Vehicle
  5. Throwing
  6. Jack-of-all-Trades

5. Career - Worker
  1. Technical
  2. Mechanical
  3. Electronics
  4. +1 Dex
  5. Gravitics
  6. Jack-of-all-Trades

6. Background
  1. Brawling
  2. Craftsman
  3. Performance
  4. Vacc Suit
  5. Polearm
  6. Tolerance

Females
Patriarch's Wife
1. Diversion
2. +1 Int
3. Jack-of-all-Trades
4. +1 Str
5. Diversion
6. +1 Edu

Other Wife
1. Medial
2. Diversion
3. Jack-of-all-Trades
4. +1 Str
5. Diversion
6. +1 Dex


Mustering Out Benefits

	Noble Admin	Noble Gov't	Noble Warrior
1	Skill		Skill		Skill
2	+1 Int		+1 Int		+1 Int
3	+1 Edu		+1 Edu		+1 Edu
4	Polearm		Polearm		Gun
5	Gun		Gun		Training
6	+1 Caste		+2 Caste		+1 Caste
7	+2 Caste		Courier		Transport
     +1 for Space Service, -1 for Ground Service

1	5000		5000		5000
2	10000		10000		5000
3	10000		10000		10000
4	10000		20000		10000
5	20000		20000		10000
6	20000		20000		20000
7	50000		40000		30000
   + gambling skill

Well-born
	Trader		Technician	Warrior	
1	Skill		Skill		Skill
2	+1 Int		+1 Int		+1 Int
3	+1 Edu		+1 Edu		+1 Edu
4	Polearms	Polearms	Guns
5	Guns		Guns		Training
6	+1 Caste		Tools		+1 Caste
7	Merchant	+2 Caste		Transport
  +1 Space service, -1 ground service

1	1000		1000		1000
2	5000		1000		1000
3	10000		5000		5000
4	20000		10000		5000
5	20000		10000		10000
6	30000		20000		10000
7	50000		30000		20000
 + gambling skill




K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:01:37 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: K'kree Character Generation System - Part II

                      Str    Dex End   Int     Edu   Caste
Patriarch	     2D+6 2D 2D+6 2D+2 2D+2 2D
Bodyguard 2D+6 2D 2D+6 2D-4  2D-4  2D
Servant       2D+6 2D 2D+6 2D-4  2D-4  2D
Female        2D+3 2D 2D+3 2D      2D-5 male's
max               25     15    25     15       15

Number of Terms
Patriarch       1D+1
Warriors       1D-3
Bodyguards 1D-3
Females         1D
Others            1D+1

Patriarch is noble on 5-, otherwise well-born. On 9-, patriarch has caste 
- -1D wives, and servants have caste-2D wives. Nobles have bodyguards and 
servants both equal to their caste, well-borns have bodyguards and servants 
both equal to half their caste (rounding up).

Default skills:
Noble Patriarch		Leader 1
Well-born Patriarch	Admin 1
Noble Warrior		Tactics 1
Well-born Warrior	Leader 1
Servant Warrior		Polearm 1
Servant			Jack-of-all-Trades
	
==================================================
Noble Warrior

1. Physical
  1. +1 Str
  2. +1 Dex
  3. +1 End
  4. Blade Combat
  5. Gun Combat
  6. Enclosure

2. Mental
  1. Leadership
  2. Academic
  3. Exploration
  4. Computer
  5. Tactics
  6. Science

3. Education
  1. Vacc Suit
  2. Tactics
  3. Astrogation
  4. Sensors
  5. Bureaucracy
  6. Charisma

4. Social
  1. Leadership
  2. Carousing
  3. Gambling
  4. Charisma
  5. Diplomacy
  6. +1 Caste

5. Career - Space
  1. Astrogation
  2. Spacecraft
  3. Computer
  4. Sensors
  5. Leadership
  6. Environmental Combat

5. Career - Ground
  1. Gun Combat
  2. Gon Combat
  3. Tactics
  4. Heavy Weapons
  5. Battle Dress
  6. Camouflage

6. Background
  1. Athletics
  2. Language
  3. Clandestine
  4. Law
  5. Performance
  6. Vacc Suit


Noble

1. Physical
  1. -1 Str
  2. +1 Str
  3. +1 Dex
  4. +1 End
  5. Polearm
  6. Enclosure

2. Mental
  1. Science
  2. Tolerance
  3. Performance
  4. Clandestine
  5. Perception
  6. Instruction

3. Educational
  1. Charisma
  2. Leadership
  3. Philosophy
  4. Bureaucracy
  5. Law
  6. +1 Edu

4. Social
  1. Diplomacy
  2. Administration
  3. Charisma
  4. Tolerance
  5. Gambling
  6. +1 Caste

5. Career - Administration
  1. Bureaucracy
  2. Clandestine
  3. Computer
  4. Business
  5. Administration
  6. Jack-of-all-Trades

5. Career - Government
  1. Tolerance
  2. Leadership
  3. Bureaucracy
  4. Diplomacy
  5. Administration
  6. Criminology

6. Background
  1. Gambling
  2. Perception
  3. Performance
  4. Language
  5. Watercraft
  6. Grav Craft


Well-Born Warrior

1. Physical
  1. +1 Str
  2. +1 Dex
  3. +1 End
  4. Enclosure
  5. Gun Combat
  6. Brawling

2. Mental
  1. Sensors
  2. Camoflague
  3. Exploration
  4. Science
  5. First Aid
  6. Enclosure

3. Educational
  1. Battle Dress
  2. Reconaissance
  3. Heavy Weapons
  4. Spacecraft
  5. Technical
  6. Exploration

4. Social
  1. Gambling
  2. Leadership
  3. Bureaucracy
  4. Instruction
  5. Intimidation
  6. +1 Caste

5. Career - Space
  1. Environmental Combat
  2. Computer
  3. Gunnery
  4. Astrogation
  5. Spacecraft
  6. Technical

5. Career - Ground
  1. Gun Combat
  2. Gun Combat
  3. Blade Combat
  4. Heavy Weapons
  5. Camoflague
  6. Throwing

6. Background
  1. Athletics
  2. Performance
  3. Vacc Suit
  4. Streetwise
  5. Brawling
  6. Business



K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1279
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1280



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

K'kree Character Generation System - Part 1
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question
technical considerations
Re: Flood of the Millennium
RE: Flood of the millenia
Base symbols on good hex maps
Re: Self-Destructing Hardback
Re: Base symbols on good hex maps
Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives
Re: Next THUDDD ship class
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:01:02 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: K'kree Character Generation System - Part 1

	Well, here's my T4 K'kree char gen system. It realls is only a first draft 
now, so I'd love any feedback for how it might be improved. Are some skills 
apperaing to frequently? Are other skills neglected? Anything else?

==================================================================


K'kree Character Generation

	Because of the extreme gregariousness of the K'kree, generating K'kree 
characters requires a very different generation process. In effect, you 
will not be generating a not a single K'kree, but an entire family - a 
leader, bodyguards, females, and servants - all at once. As well, the 
highly structured caste system of K'kree society has a profound effect on 
character generation.

	The family patriarch should be generated first. He will be a noble on a 
roll of 5- (on 2D), otherwise he'll be well-born. His characteristics 
should be generated first. On a roll of 9-, he has caste - 1D wives 
(otherwise, there are no females in the family). A noble has servants to 
his caste, and bodyguards equal to his caste. A well-born has servants 
equal to half his caste, and bodyguards equal to half his caste.

	Rolling up characteristics is the same as in T4, although with some 
changes. The stats are the same, except that the caste statistic replaces 
social standing. Caste represents the K'kree's position within their caste. 
Thus, a caste 2 noble outranks a caste 12 well-born. There are various 
modifiers to the different characteristics, depending on social standing 
and position. All characteristics have a lower limit of 15, and an upper 
limit of 15, except for strength and endurance which have upper limits of 
25.

	When aquiring skills and experience, K'kree do not use enlistment, 
promotion or injury rolls. Because of the caste system, individual K'kree 
have no choice over what career they will take, so no enlistment rolls are 
necessary. Any military ranks are derived from the character's caste, so 
the only way to increase rank is to increase caste.

	K'kree terms of service are 6 years long. During each term, noble and 
well-born characters receive one skill roll in each year of the term (6 per 
term), servant characters receive one skill roll every two years (3 per 
term), and females receive only one skill roll per term.

	For each K'kree you pre-roll the numbers of term that will be served. All 
male characters serve their first term in the military. Bodyguards and 
military families serve all of their terms in the military. Any other males 
may serve subsequent terms in the military on a roll of 4- (on 2D), but 
they must serve one term out of the military.

	Within each career path there are two separate career skill tables. When 
first entering the service, the character must decide which service the 
character will enter, and which career skill table they will use. They 
can't later choose to switch services and skill tables. The choice of 
service will also affect which mustering out table will be used.

	Aging does not occur for K'kree until the age of 50, but then standard 
aging rules apply. As a result, K'kree do not age between 35 and 50, but 
then age at the same rate as their human counterparts.

	Mustering out benefits are accrued as per the T4 rules. Only the patriarch 
receives mustering out rolls, but many of the benefits apply to the entire 
family.


New Skills

Diversion (Int or Caste) (females only) - Diversion covers the various 
activities that are esthetic and pleasing to K'kree society. It is 
essentially a measure of a female K'kree's value in the family.

Enclosure (Int or End) - Enclosure is a measure of how accustomed the 
K'kree is to the psychological problems associated with being in small or 
cramped spaces, or other circumstances that would isolate them from other 
K'kree.
	Enclosure-1 is received automatically the first time the character 
receives Ship's Boat, Vacc Suit or any vehicle skill (if the character does 
not already have Enclosure-1). For any K'kree the level of those three 
skills can not be higher than that K'kree's evel of Enclosure

Tolerance (Int or End) - Tolerance is a measure of the K'kree's tolerance 
for non-K'kree customs and concepts. The level of tolerance is used as a 
modifier to reaction rolls involving aliens.

Polearms - is a subset of the blades group.


Mustering-Out Benefits

Money: the cash value received is multiplied by the number of individuals 
in the family. That moneybelongs to the family collectively.

Weapons: this benefit grants one weapon of the indicated type to each 
warrior/ bodyguard in the family.

Characteristic Alteration: granted only to the patriarch.

Skill: any one member of the family may make one extra skill roll on the 
tables from the last term of service. All males in the family musthave used 
this benefit before any individual can receive it a second time.

Training: all members of the family receive one skill roll.

Starships: denotes outright ownership of a K'kree Merchant, Transport or 
Courier. Subsequent roles are ignored.

Tools: grants the technician and each servant worker a tool kit. Available 
tools include: mechanical tool kit, electronics tool kit, carpentry tool 
kit, metalwork tool kit, medical kit, hand computer, metal detector, 
radiation counter, chain saw, or similar items.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:40:41 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
> natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?

Formula for Typical surface gravity

g = Gm/r^2; G=Gravitational Constant, m=mass, r=radius
m = Volume*density = (4/3)*pi*r^3 * p ; substituting into above formula:

g=4*G*pi*r*p/3

> What's the approximate gravity on Ceres?

Gravitational constant = 6.673e-11 * 4.1e20
Ceres Diameter = 1023 km; r = 511500 m
       Density = 2.3 g/cm^3 = 2300 kg/m^3

g  = 4/3*6.673e-11*3.1415*511500*2300 = 0.33 m/s^2
     or, about 1/30 that of earth.

> How does this vary on a long non-spherical object like a big asteroid?

Equatorial surface gravity = ge = g(1 + el - 1.5w)
    where w = 4*pi^2*r^3/(d^2(1-el)/Gm
         el = ellipticity

Polar surface gravity = gp = ge(1+(2.5-el))

> What's the approximate natural gravity on, say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

Yuck. I'm not sure how the above equations hold for such a potato shaped
object; there's no consistant diameter. Gravity would be negligible for
such a small asteroid, methinks. I'm sure walking speed would be greater
than the escape velocity...

Which is another formula you can use:
    Escape velocity = v = sqrt(2*r*g)

For Ceres, that works out to be 580 m/s or so.
For a 1 km dia. spherical rock it's about sqrt(0.32) = .57 m/s^2 = 2
km/h!

> And heck, what's the average air-speed of a coconut-laden European swallow? :)

Tahitian or Bahaman coconuts? ;-)

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:42:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)

I stand corrected.  Thanks Joseph.  I guess its not as clear as it seemed :).

At 08:07 PM 4/30/97 -2900, Joseph "Chepe" Lockett wrote:
>Quoth Erwin Fritz:
>> However, the matter part of the pair should form inside the event
>> horizon just as often as the antimatter. So, the black hole gains
>> mass from the matter half of the pair and loses mass from the antimatter
>> half. The net result is that the black hole is in equilibrium.
>> 
>> Have I missed something?
>
>No, Brett Fishburne's explanation was incorrect.  After all, there is no
>"matter" inside the black hole to disintegrate: just mass-energy, which
>doesn't care what form it's in (matter, antimatter, photons) since it's
>effectively inaccessible anyway.
>
>I'm only an amateur physicist, but I'll try to make a bit more sense of
>the whole high weirdness here.  The trick is that the particle-pair
>production which starts this whole game results from the mass-energy of
>the black hole itself and its stress on space.  Normally, a particle and
>anti-particle would spontaneously emerge from the vacuum (energy -> mass),
>hang around for a short time (read Feynman if you want to know _how_
>long), and then annihilate each other (mass -> energy).  We're just
>swapping around mass-energy counters and no one really minds. 
>
>However, in some cases, one of the particle pair will fall inwards and,
>due to conservation of energy, the other will be flung outwards.  Recall
>that _both_ were created from the black hole's reservoir of energy.  So
>even though it "gets" one, it created two -- for a net loss.
>
>----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
> Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
>http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
>  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 97 21:19:33 +0200
From: marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

Thanks to anybody who wrote on the Vilaniworld subject... I am
slow to answer because I accumulate 6-10 digests before actually
read them. Here is some further answers/debate on the subject.

Mark Clark added some interesting historical notes on Amusement Parks:
>They developed in the 19th century as a place for the new urban
>middle class to go for recreation.  Most started as just what
>the name sounds like - parks.  They were open areas, usually at
>the outskirts of the city or by a seashore, and were a green and
>pleasant alternative to the crowded, pre-mass transit/automobile
>inner city...
>  Initially, entertainment centered around pastoral activities - you could
>walk about and see the trees and flowers, listen to music, participate in
>athletic contests, shoot at targets, that sort of thing.  As society as a
>whole became more mechanised, amusement parks began to include more of
>what we would think of as "rides" - mechanized entertainment.  This was
>pushed along by the success of the World's Fairs, which often included
>mechanized entertainment - the Ferris Wheel debuted at such a fair.

What about "natural areas" as relax areas for people
working/living far from hospitable planets? (i.e. Asteroids
Miners, Gas Giant refineries and so on?)

The inevitable _Dream Park_ reference was made by Leonard Erickson:
>They deal with a not too distant future amusenent oark doing LARPs.
>Though mostly *without* robots, but with holograms. Besides the active
>players, the big games are shown on the equivalent of closed circuit TV.

This is interesting, and a viable alternative to robots, but I
still prefer my idea for at least two reasons:
* Robots can be touched.
* Holograms (and VR) are probably quite affordable in the
 Imperium. The average household in our century (at least in the
 western emisphere) can afford TV, Stereo and PCs. The same could
 probably hold for VRs and Holograms in the far future.  Robots,
 on the other hand, are expensive. Even pooling resources
 (imagine a game group who wants to enlive its experiences) you
 can't afford more than 1 or 2 human-size models, probably with
 limited programming.

So the idea of interacting with *hundreds* of realistic robots could
perhaps be such a novelty idea to actually attract people.

Glenn Grant made interesting comments on Gravitics as a way to get better VR:
>Imagine what you could do with VR if you had gravitics. Strap the audience
>down into a spherical VR "ride-theatre" with holographic displays. Gravitic
>modules in the sphere could create all the kinetic effects usually missing
>from VR: sustained G forces, free-fall, you name it. This would effectively
>eliminate the VR-sickness problem, resulting from mismatched signals from
>the viewer's eyes and inner ears.

But I disagree on the rest of his post:
>Leaving aside VR, gravitic tech provides vast opportunities for relatively
>safe amusement park rides beyond anything we've ever seen. Dogfights
>between 'space fighters'. Zero-gravity aerial bumper cars. Aerobatic
>sky-diving with grav-belts ...
*Relatively* *Safe* is not such a winning idea in family oriented
theme parks, IMHO. I suppose (and hope) that even the most
frightening rollercoasters have plenty of *mechanical* failsafe
mechanisms (brakes, etc.). On the other hand, if one of yours 0G
Bumper Cars starts getting power glitches the park owners would have
to deal with deaths among their customers... not a very good
publicity, I'd say.


__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:26:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question

> > Good idea. I'll try that. (BTW, killer program that Starship Assembly Line.
> > I like it a lot).
> 
> Where can this program be located

I've received this question twice today, so I thought I'd
Cc: TML...

http://www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/Trav/SSDS/SAL.html

You gotta have a java enabled browser though.
(Or, you could download the program to run locally if you
really want to too.)

Enjoy,
Ethan                                                     

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:32:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: technical considerations

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:24:03 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Some techincal questions

> We use the heat and pressure to overcome the *electromagnetic
> repulsion* between the nuclei. At high temps and pressures, the nuclei
> hit hard enough when they crash "into" each other that *in spite* of
> the repulsion, they get close enough for the strong nuclear force to
> pull them together.

> Make the nuclear force stronger, and you can lower the temp/pressure
> required for fusion. Make it weaker and you raise it.

   You make a good point, and it illustrates well why I think damping
   fusion will be much harder than damping fission.  You see, the
   nuclear force is many times stronger than the electromagnetic force,
   and the nuclear (strong) force has a finite range with a relatively
   well defined drop off at 1 femptometer, and it saturates.  All this
   means that, barring a little fuzziness, the nuclear force either
   dominates a reaction or doesn't enter at all.  Once you raise a
   temperature high enough to overcome the coulomb barrier, your
   reaction will be dominated by nuclear forces, and the coulomb forces
   will cease to contribute any appreciable fraction of the interaction.

   The only way to get around this would be to weaken the nuclear force
   by several orders of magnitude (or strenghten the electromagnetic
   force by several orders of magnitude).  If damper technology could do
   this, then we'd have very powerful disintegrators.

   What I say here applies to nucleons, deuterons and alphas.  As you
   make heavier nuclei, the saturation of the nuclear force keeps it
   from getting stronger, while the electromagnetic force continues to
   build as more protons are dumped into the mix.  At some point, the
   two forces become comparable in strength, and small changes in the
   nuclear strength can cause radio-isotopes to decay to stabler nuclei,
   thereby damping nuclear /fission/, but not /fusion/.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:51:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:37:32 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> Fission can go on it's own, but requires an outside agency to keep the
> fissionable material close enough together for *long* enough to go
> "boom" (assuming the fissionables are pure enough, only Navy reactors
> use fuel that pure). What happens without rather *enormous* forces to
> confine the fissioning material is that it develops just enough energy
> to scatter the fissionables enough that the reaction can't continue.
> This is not nice for the people nearby, but it won't bother folks more
> than a few tens of yards away.

This is true if you restrict the problem to making the *fuel itself*
explode, a la an atom bomb.  However, making the *plant as a whole*
explode (and distribute fallout over a fairly wide area) is much easier;
at Chernobyl, they managed it accidentally, and at TMI almost did the
same.

The key to realize is that, in the event of a runaway fission reaction,
the fuel rods will try to spontaneously disassemble (love that
euphemism!), usually by melting/fracturing rather than blowing up per se.
If allowed to do so, the threat to surrounding areas is over...but the
interior of the reaction vessel is an utter loss, unrecoverable for
hundreds to thousands of years thanks to the radioactive material flung
around at random inside.

Because power companies (or government power authorities, in the Soviet
case) are highly reluctant to write off an entire reactor, they generally
try to intervene rather than letting the reactor shut itself down
destructively.  The most usual course taken is to dump vast quantities of
cooling water into the system, to prevent the rods from deforming as they
heat, and also because water is a reasonably good neutron absorber, and
hence helps quench the fission reaction.

The problem is that doing this has proven tricky (sometimes) in practice.
At both TMI and Chernobyl, the fuel rods were hotter and more deformed
than had been predicted.  The cooling water flashed to live steam on
contact with the rods, and at Chernobyl the rods themselves shattered from
thermal shock as well.  The resulting steam explosion trashed the interior
of the reactor at TMI, and cracked the containment vessel wide open at
Chernobyl; in the latter case, chunks of the fuel rods landed over a
kilometer away (!), and significant amounts of radioactive material were
dispersed over millions of square kilometers.

So, while creating a nuclear explosion per se in a nuclear power plant is
indeed well-nigh impossible, creating a radioactive, highly dangerous
explosion is (relatively speaking) child's play.

> Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
> into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
> "boom". 

Almost any combustible material reduced to airborne dust will burn with
explosive force.  This used to happen fairly often to wheat siloes, for
example, before modern safeguards were developed -- and even now, a silo
explodes from time to time.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:11:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: RE: Flood of the millenia

On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:

> >K.C. Komosky wrote:
> >>
> >>         I did want to ask the list, however, what good 57th century 
> disasters
> 	Solar flares - now we might be on to something. But I'm a geologist, not 
> an astronomer. 

[you left out the "dammit Jim!"

>Would anyone out there like to comment on just how dangerous 
> a solar flare might be? Or is my impressions about solar flares just built 
> on bad sci-fi?

Roger Zelazny adn another author that I fail to recall (someone here will
fill it in - they always do) wrote a pretty good yarn called "Flare!"
which postulates that our sun (yes, that second rate little thing!) will
put out a major flare or two in the next hundred years.

Since the setting is 21st century Earth in a system which did not expect
the Sun to produce much in the way of flares, the book is primarily useful
for TL9 -10 societies around usually passive stars, but the principles can
be applied in higher magnitudes to higher level societies; 

Sudden increases in EM radiation on all frequencies

Heating and expansion of the upper atmosphere of planets which have them
(this has serious implications for stations and satellites in low orbits;
suddenly they are experiencing atmospheric braking!)

Flooding of all communication channels (except maybe laser and maser) with
static.

Outer space installations which are not shielded in excess of normal local
conditions (by a factor of 2-3!) may suffer catastophic failure of all
electronics on board, and its inhabitants may be subjected to harmful 
radiation.

Getting a suntan is much easier.

Global Warming could occur if the flares are a trend rather than an
isolated incident.

You get the idea. A good place for an adventure is a geriatric rest home
in low orbit which suddenly finds itself "falling" slowly into a terminal
orbit.  Rescue crews are either busy, or trying to figure out why none of
their electronics are working (this scenario is right out of the
aforementioned book btw).

Gotta fly!  

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 14:55:55 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Base symbols on good hex maps

Howdy all.

I am busily finishing off a Postscript-based hex map generator, and I had a
few questions about base codes.  I have looked through various Traveller's
digests and various printed maps, and the following seems canonical.  If
there is a better list, or if anyone has something they definitely want to
see or do not want to see, please let me know.

First off, the symbols:  I have small stars, triangles, boxes, diamonds,
circles, individual letters, elongated diamonds, and probably a few other
symbols.  Note that these are used both on subsector-sized maps and on full
sector maps, so it would be nice, though not necessary, if they were
recognizable on both.

Standard ones:

Scout base: triangle
Scout way station:: empty triangle
Naval base: star
Naval depot: star

Others I have heard used, but that are not canon:
Army base: box ?
Marine base: empty box
Vargr base: elongated diamond
Zhodani base: letter Z
non imperial base: dot like gas giants

The codes I have heard go something like:
 A: Naval base and Scout base
 B: Naval base and Scout way station
 G: Garrison
 M: Marine or mercenary base
 N: Naval base
 D: Naval depot
 S: Scout base
 V: Vargr corsair base
 W: Scout way station
 Z: Zhodani base

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 16:37:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Self-Destructing Hardback

At 01:13 PM 4/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Am I the only one whose limited-edition, first-printing, autographed,
>UNTOUCHED hardback is self-destructing? The corners of the cover are
>pulling away from the rest of the book ...

Mine seems to be in good condition.. it is in a similar stste of unuse,
sitting on the little altar in the corner...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 16:37:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Base symbols on good hex maps

At 02:55 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote:

>First off, the symbols:  I have small stars, triangles, boxes, diamonds,
>circles, individual letters, elongated diamonds, and probably a few other
>symbols.  Note that these are used both on subsector-sized maps and on full
>sector maps, so it would be nice, though not necessary, if they were
>recognizable on both.
>
>Standard ones:
>
>Scout base: triangle
>Scout way station:: empty triangle

or a red triangle.

>Naval base: star
>Naval depot: star

Usually shown as a white square.

>Others I have heard used, but that are not canon:
>Army base: box ?
>Marine base: empty box

I have never seen these.. since every world will have an Army, and the
Marines tend to co-locate with the Navy, they might be redundant.

>Vargr base: elongated diamond
>Zhodani base: letter Z

Actually, the map I have shows Zhodani bases as a white diamond.

>The codes I have heard go something like:

these are used in the UWP, not on the map.

> M: Marine or mercenary base

More often for mercenaries.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:13:21 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on realistic "reactionless" drives

>Only trouble is, the energy from decelerating *has* to be handled some
>way.
It's your drive idea - what are you planning on doing with the waste heat?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:42:23 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Next THUDDD ship class

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>>         Unless, of course, we were to come up with requirements for the
>> Imperial Yacht Match Racing Association Ardunia's Cup-class racing yacht.
>> However, given that we'd be optimizing for speed and nothing else, I don't
>> think that the design systems provide fine enough resolution for us to
>> actually compete; we'd probably all wind up with more or less identical
>> designs.
>
>Grab a copy of the rules governing "12 meter" sailboats. Then try to
>figure out something equivalent for use by spacecraft of some sort...

	Hm.  Not sure how well that would work.  The 12-Meter rules was
pretty primitive, and pretty wierd, so that people who designed boats with
grapefruit-sized bumps at the right points, or used winged keels, or other
wierdnesses gained a certain amount of advantage.  The whole purpose of the
varies rules was to standardize things as much as possible, which naturally
led to people finding loopholes and freakish designs evolving.  The thing
is is that I honestly don't think that given the current design systems we
can produce different designs to that sort of spec and see a difference; if
we went all-out to maximize performance, eventually we'd hit on identical
designs.  The design systems don't go into the level of detail that
differentiates match-racing sailboats...

	The only reason we get such interesting divergences in the THUDDD
ships is that people have different ideas about what's desirable in each
class.  For the last one, I thought that it was the biggest PA gun you can
buy at TL-12 and lotsa lasers, while other benighted souls thought it was
conformity to the contest specs <wierd>.  If we simply went for highest
performance in a 300td hull with room for pilot, navigator, engineer, and
butler, we'd likely wind up with pretty much the same thing...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:53:49 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

- ----------
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection
> Date: Thursday, May 01, 1997 2:14 AM

> 1 km x 1 km is 1e6 m^2. And we know that radars can pick up a 1 m^2
> target at 150 km. Maybe even at 1500.
> 

The US Air Force uses large phased array radars for slbm detection and
spacetracking of both satellites and debri.  IIRC the 
data they release to the public says that these radar sites can see 
something the size of a basketball at 3000miles.  That seems pretty
impressive. These radar have 1500 separate elements, and each one
is capable of warming up a cup of coffee.  If you walked in front of 
the array and it was focused on you, you'd be well done in a matter 
of minutes.  All that power is probably why they can see objects
at such a distance.  

	Hey, did anyone else see the article in Popular Science about
electrochromic skins for aircraft?  I remember reading about this 
stuff in the Sten books when it was still science fiction.  So, 
who wants to add a section to FF&S concerning this?

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 22:22:30 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@jerry.pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments & SSDS Question

At 10:19 AM 5/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>What I'd really like is for Guy or whoever designed SSDS to set me straight.
>I think I'll Cc: him.

        That's me, although after I saw what came out I wanted to travel the
country blacking my name out of the book. For the record, I coordinated the
Beta effort to create the system itself; IG was *supposed* to supply all the
descriptive text.

        Anyway, to answer your original question: If you have weapons
controlled by Master Fire Directors, they do NOT need to have individual
gunners. They only need a gunner at the MFD. However, if your MFD gets
knocked out and you don't have individual gunners ...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1280
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 2 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1281



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: technical considerations
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Self-Destructing Hardback
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
"Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: Computer Tech
Re: Thrust Plates Revisited
Re: Gravitic Focusing
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Disasters
Re: Flood of the Millenium
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
re: K'Kree for T4... error
Re: Base symbols on good hex maps
Re: Base symbols on good hex maps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 22:22:28 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@jerry.pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

At 09:37 PM 4/30/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> * disgruntled power plant employees causing local fusion plant to go boom
>> (dunno how possible or big a bang this would get you)
>
>Making a fission *or* fusion power plant go "boom" is in the same
>league as making a coal-fired power plant go "boom". It's *possible*,
>but only by taking the fuel and doing things with it that the power
>plant *can't* do.
>
>Fusion requires heat & pressure to maintain the reaction (or a nuclear
>damper in "enhance" mode).
>
>Fission can go on it's own, but requires an outside agency to keep the
>fissionable material close enough together for *long* enough to go
>"boom" (assuming the fissionables are pure enough, only Navy reactors
>use fuel that pure). What happens without rather *enormous* forces to
>confine the fissioning material is that it develops just enough energy
>to scatter the fissionables enough that the reaction can't continue.
>This is not nice for the people nearby, but it won't bother folks more
>than a few tens of yards away.
>
>Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
>into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
>"boom". 

        Worse than that! Did you know that, just like nuclear reactors, the
fuel for coal plants is the same material that's used in making extremely
powerful bombs? Why, the whole coalpile could suddenly detonate one day,
destroying entire cities! Ban Coal Now!

(Removing tongue from cheek with tractor beam)

        Of course, it takes some fancy equipment to get the toluene out of
coal and tri-nitrate it to make TNT, but it's still easier than separating
out the U235, and nutheads still worry about reactors "blowing up." 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 22:22:32 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@jerry.pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: technical considerations

At 03:32 PM 5/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>   Hi.
>
>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:24:03 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> Subject: Re: Some techincal questions
>
>> We use the heat and pressure to overcome the *electromagnetic
>> repulsion* between the nuclei. At high temps and pressures, the nuclei
>> hit hard enough when they crash "into" each other that *in spite* of
>> the repulsion, they get close enough for the strong nuclear force to
>> pull them together.
>
>> Make the nuclear force stronger, and you can lower the temp/pressure
>> required for fusion. Make it weaker and you raise it.
>
>   You make a good point, and it illustrates well why I think damping
>   fusion will be much harder than damping fission.  You see, the
>   nuclear force is many times stronger than the electromagnetic force,
>   and the nuclear (strong) force has a finite range with a relatively
>   well defined drop off at 1 femptometer, and it saturates.  All this
>   means that, barring a little fuzziness, the nuclear force either
>   dominates a reaction or doesn't enter at all.  Once you raise a
>   temperature high enough to overcome the coulomb barrier, your
>   reaction will be dominated by nuclear forces, and the coulomb forces
>   will cease to contribute any appreciable fraction of the interaction.
>
>   The only way to get around this would be to weaken the nuclear force
>   by several orders of magnitude (or strenghten the electromagnetic
>   force by several orders of magnitude).  If damper technology could do
>   this, then we'd have very powerful disintegrators.
>
>   What I say here applies to nucleons, deuterons and alphas.  As you
>   make heavier nuclei, the saturation of the nuclear force keeps it
>   from getting stronger, while the electromagnetic force continues to
>   build as more protons are dumped into the mix.  At some point, the
>   two forces become comparable in strength, and small changes in the
>   nuclear strength can cause radio-isotopes to decay to stabler nuclei,
>   thereby damping nuclear /fission/, but not /fusion/.

        Well, then we need to get the Official Traveller Handwaving
Gymnastics Team on the job to explain how come 

        a) Nobody uses fusion warheads on missiles, despite their being
smaller and more powerful than fission, or
        b) Why nuclear dampers work on fusion warheads, or
        c) Why, despite all the technology advances (and despite how we can
think of several right now), nobody has been able to create a fusion warhead
that doesn't require a fission trigger

        Given the fact that nuclear dampers have always been presented as a
defense against missiles.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 97 23:12:03 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

On 05/01/97 at 10:22 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@jerry.pcisys.net>
said:

> >Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
> >into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
> >"boom". 

>         Worse than that! Did you know that, just like nuclear reactors,
> the fuel for coal plants is the same material that's used in making
> extremely powerful bombs? Why, the whole coalpile could suddenly detonate
> one day, destroying entire cities! Ban Coal Now!

> (Removing tongue from cheek with tractor beam)

>         Of course, it takes some fancy equipment to get the toluene out
> of coal and tri-nitrate it to make TNT, but it's still easier than
> separating out the U235, and nutheads still worry about reactors "blowing
> up." 

Ah, yep! 

Of course, you can get explosives out of a stockyard, and what you can do
with fertilizer and fuel oil...well I guess we *all* know about that. 


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 21:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Self-Destructing Hardback

On Thu, 1 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 01:13 PM 4/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >Am I the only one whose limited-edition, first-printing, autographed,
> >UNTOUCHED hardback is self-destructing? The corners of the cover are
> >pulling away from the rest of the book ...
> 
> Mine seems to be in good condition.. it is in a similar stste of unuse,
> sitting on the little altar in the corner...

     Mine's been used for reference reading but never in play, and so far
it seems to be holding up fine, but for what it's worth mine is
non-autographed and may not be from the actual first printing (rec'd in
the mail sometime late Oct/early Nov).

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:49:24 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

>                                 6.7E-11 * Mass of asteroid (kg)
>        g (in Earth gravities) = --------------------------------
>                                 9.8 * (Radius of asteroid (m))^2

>Try the formula above for different values of R representing the extremes
>of the asteroid shape (recall R is _not_ diameter, but distance from the
>surface to the center of mass).  The gravity will smoothly vary between
>those values as you traverse the surface.

There's a book by whoever called "Mission of gravity that uses the above
reasoning to make an extreme G planet with gravity varying from about 1G to
perhaps 900 G at the equator.

I haven't done the integrations to prove it but my instinct tells me the
above formula for nonespherical objects is blatantly wrong. Remember that
gravity is simply the sum of pulls from all parts of an object where each
objects pull is prop to its mass and inversely prop to the square of range
and alo note that gravitic pull is a vector. The formula when misused like
the above treats the asteroid like all its mass were to be compacted into a
spehere with radius R.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 06:31:45 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: "Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)

Here it is (again)-- the April 30th 1997 listing for the "Citizens of
TML".  I don't know what happened last time so I am sending it
complete as one component this time.

If anyone wants to make any changes/additions, you can contact me
directly.  Currently, it is a ZIP'd up TXT file approximately 29KB
long (it could be shorter).  I had to make a few minor alterations to
reduce the size of the file.  Any submissions that would *reduce* the
size of this file would be greatly appreciated.

I may repost it a month or so down the road unless anybody strongly
objects.  I may even refine the list to only include those individuals
that are currently well known to the list (it all depends on how large
it gets).


James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:58:48 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>I agree it doesn't happen with hexes IF you only measure distances along
>the three axes that hexes are correct on. Squares are correct on two
>perpendicular axes. Any arbitrary distance will be wrongly measured by both
>systems and the big advantage to squares is that they're easier to fit onto
>normal deckplans
[snip]

Not true, hexes approximate distance well along any axis. You don't even
need an axis. Don't take my word for it, try it; get a piece of hex paper
and graph paper. Now draw a bunch of lines on both, even curves or scrawls.
Now count the number of hexes and squares the lines occupy (that is,
crosses through a significant portion of). Now measure the lines. When I
try the hexes are off by about 1 in 10 and the squares by around 1 in 6.
I'm not a mathematician so I can't give you a proof, but if you look at
hexes they are more nearly circular than square. Drawing an arbitrary line
through hexes will cross into another hex at roughly the same distance no
matter what direction the line takes. This is not true with squares; if
your line happens to go diagonal it will go a longer distance before
crossing into the next square. Counting diagonal lines as 1.5 the distance
of orthogonal lines reduces the error to about 1 in 10 also, but then you
have to deal with fractional squares and count differently depending on how
the line curves; you can get a different length by counting in a different
direction. I just find it easier to use hexes.

>The advantage of squares is that EVRUBODY have them. They're everywhere so
>you don't have to go to your local gameshop when you run out of paper.

True, but I photocopy all my hex paper. All the hex paper I have seen has
much too heavy lines anyway; you can barely see the map through those thick
black hexes. Ideally, they should use a faint blue hairline. You can't get
hex paper in different scales also; another reason for using a photocopier
with enlargements. I admit the price and quality of graph paper is far
superior to hex paper.

>I am a bit curious as to why you got so angry about my preference for
>squares instead of hexes - do you sell hexmaps or something?

Angry? Moi? Seriously, I don't think my reply was angry in the least; I
certainly didn't mean it to be so. Do you think the only reason someone
would disagree with you is because they are selling something? My reply may
have been baffled and a little incredulous; I have been playing with hex
maps and grids for years. Hex maps work; all the designers who use them are
not idiots.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:49:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>Angry? Moi? Seriously, I don't think my reply was angry in the least; I
>certainly didn't mean it to be so. Do you think the only reason someone
>would disagree with you is because they are selling something? My reply may
>have been baffled and a little incredulous; I have been playing with hex
>maps and grids for years. Hex maps work; all the designers who use them are
>not idiots.

And the few designers who've used them that ARE idiots are not neccessarily
idiots for that reason. I actually still have some planetary maps made with
hexes that I haven't bothered to change yet;)

Did you know that if you make a standard flattened dodecahedron (standard
planetary map) with hexes where there are as many hexes per triangle side
as the planetary size digit then each hex is almost exactly 1000 km across
at all planetary sizes.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:57:41 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

>OK, I thought there must be a reason, but I could see it. It's just that
>the 'bundled pulse' seemed to involve even more handwaving than a
>gravitational lens.
>
>R. Boleyn
> <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
>TNE to the core

Enough handwaving to make you fly - even in vacuum.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:54:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

>Well, the manufacturing process I described exists today.  It's been in use
>in the CAD industry since the late 1980s, and in the medical prosthesis
>industry since the early 1990s.  The x-ray lithography thing is several TL
>leaps ahead of us yet.
>
>No diver suits are required for the manufacturing process; it takes place
>inside a sealed chamber.  But you're right, no one would dream of calling
>these "frozen holograms."  I have no idea where _that_ came from.
>
>--
>
>Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

You misunderstood me. I quote myself:
>but in order to use them as the original poster described you'll have to
>put a diversuit on the operator

The original poster thought this system would be neat to use for on the fly
generated tactile feedback for shipoperations. Figure the operator in
divingsuit inside those sealed chambers that constanly produce buttons to
push, joysticks to fiddle with etc. A bit impractical don't you think;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:03:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Thrust Plates Revisited

>Now, for the drive, the Meson Effect causes either a small psuedole ahead
>of the ship that pulls it forward, or more likely an anti-psuedole that pushes
>it ahead, thus explaining the pale blue light at the rear of ships. Or maybe it
>reacts with the standard gravitic particles to achieve the gun and thruster
>effects. I'm just throwing this theory out at a hectic time, haven't had too
>much time to evaluate it. That's what this mushhead relies on y'all gearheads
>for :) Using the Meson effect for Thrusters also explains why Meson screens
>are projected instead of a generalized field; if it was switched on as a field
>you'd loose your manuevering ability.

These pseudoles are also shot at near lightspeed along the path of so
called grav focussed lasers to keep the lightpulse from quantum
mechanically spreading. The first tested grav focussed lasers were actually
called Meson lasers but the navy changed that as to not confuse it with
Meson guns.

Backman, the GM that managed to levitate for 6 seconds by handwaving alone.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:15:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Gravitic Focusing

>THat's right - the field only has to produce tenth-of-arcsecond deflections
>over light-seconds of travel, so it can be relatively weak.
>
>I was one of the orignal proponents of this. Once nice side effect is that
>although the pulse is too weak to damage anything (other than, as Jospeh says,
>a solar sail) you can handwave that it's big enough to slightly rattle a
>small ship - laser near-misses would produce a "whoom" noise as the grav pulse
>goes by your hull, which is a nice effect in space combat. HIgh TL non-grav
>X-ray lasers wouldn't produce such a noise, which makes them more frightening
>to innocent players in their TL-12 trader...
>
>Bruce

It would also ruin any sensor locks FC locks the ship had.
Is this really what we want?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:25:01 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

>The US Air Force uses large phased array radars for slbm detection and
>spacetracking of both satellites and debri.  IIRC the
>data they release to the public says that these radar sites can see
>something the size of a basketball at 3000miles.  That seems pretty
>impressive. These radar have 1500 separate elements, and each one
>is capable of warming up a cup of coffee.  If you walked in front of
>the array and it was focused on you, you'd be well done in a matter
>of minutes.  All that power is probably why they can see objects
>at such a distance.
>
>        Hey, did anyone else see the article in Popular Science about
>electrochromic skins for aircraft?  I remember reading about this
>stuff in the Sten books when it was still science fiction.  So,
>who wants to add a section to FF&S concerning this?
>
>Eric

Wow, a huge array of antennas with enormous amounts of power and they see a
basketball at 15% of a spacecombat hex. If you want 1.5 hexes you'd need
x10 000 more power or x10 000 more antenna area or a combination. Which
almost proves the point that active senors will be useless for spacecombat.
Also note that they've detected Venus by radar from Earth. They used huge
amounts of power and the Arecibo (diameter ca 300 m) antenna to do it
methinks, the same planet is easily detected by the Mark I passive sensor
known as eyball.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:05:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disasters

In mail you write:

>    Not that that isn't a real concern, As well, human stupidity can also 
> effect natural disasters. Here in Winnipeg (where the flood of the century, 
> if not millenia is bearing down on us), we've spent millions of dollars 
> over the past 50 years building dikes and diversions to ward of floods. But 
> just a week ago, provincial engineers realized that the flood water was 
> going to do and end-run around the side of the dikes and enter the city. So 
> we have the comical (but very, very frightening) sight of city bulldozers 
> frantically trying to create a 40km dike in 3 days, that would normally 
> take 3 months to build.

Heck, you should have seen the fun last Feb down here in Portland.
There's a "seawall" alongside the river downtown. It's got these
well-built "posts" about a foot square holding up the sections of
"guardrail" or fence between them. And there are slots where the
concrete slabs used to fit in. They took those out some years back
(they'd been made removable to make things easier when ships were
docked) and just put in the railings, so as to make the adjacent park
look nicer. But they are needed in case of a bad flood (it makes a four
foot difference in the height of the wall!). And it seems that nobody
knows what happened to them. So we had folks from the city and lots of
civilian volunteers busily cutting plywood to fit, covering it with
plastic sheeting and bracing it in place. And more folks following
along behind to brace these with sand bags and concrete highway
dividers. 

We go lucky. The water came right up to the top of the wall, say about
an inch below the improvised stuff. And when we had a bad flood *this*
spring, we had these nice new *steel* wall sections to drop in and bolt
down.  The flood didn't get even close this time, but now the city has
them stored with big notices on them. So they aren't likely to wander
again. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:24:53 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millenium

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> * disgruntled power plant employees causing local fusion plant to go boom
>> (dunno how possible or big a bang this would get you)
>
>Making a fission *or* fusion power plant go "boom" is in the same
>league as making a coal-fired power plant go "boom". It's *possible*,
>but only by taking the fuel and doing things with it that the power
>plant *can't* do.

>Fusion requires heat & pressure to maintain the reaction (or a nuclear
>damper in "enhance" mode).

On the other hand, a reasonably simple series of computer/equipment failures
can turn a fusion plant into a hard rad source to bake the nearest city...

>Fission can go on it's own, but requires an outside agency to keep the
>fissionable material close enough together for *long* enough to go
>"boom" (assuming the fissionables are pure enough, only Navy reactors
>use fuel that pure). What happens without rather *enormous* forces to
>confine the fissioning material is that it develops just enough energy
>to scatter the fissionables enough that the reaction can't continue.
>This is not nice for the people nearby, but it won't bother folks more
>than a few tens of yards away.

Of course, it doesn't have to go "boom" to be a problem. Three Mile Island
was a narrowly averted meltdown. Chernobyl (sp?) was a full-fledged one. A
power plant up here in Canada (one of the "super-safe" CANDU plants) was
stopped a few years ago because they found out a contractor was using
sub-spec steel in the superstructure, which would have rendered the
containment vessel basically useless.

>Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
>into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
>"boom".

Bingo. So the locals have to choose between chemical and possible
radioactive pollution...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:04:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

On Thu, 1 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

Major snippage

> ... and nutheads still worry about reactors "blowing up." 

And Chernobyl was....what, a figment of the nutheads imagination?

Most coal fired plants do have the requisite elements to generate a nasty
explosion, typically conveyors moving the coal rather roughly from
wherever they store the coal to the plant, not often very far but close
enough to generate the requisite coal dust in enclosed spaces.

Then again, any energy source can be made dangerous. Several years ago my
wife and I (and all our neighbors) were spooked out of our wits...it
sounded (and felt like) something in our garage blew up. A huge boom, all
our windows rattled, and everybody ran out into the street. Turns out that
some poor fool ( with no sense of smell, apparently) had tried to figure
out why his propane heater wouldn't light in his trailerr. With a match.
Said trailer was 3 quarters of a mile away from us when it went boom, so I
really can't imagine what the noise was like for nearby residents. 

The guy lived, too, with only minor burns, considerable hearing loss, and
some bruises as he was blown through the rapidly expanding debris field
that used to be his trailer.  There ARE things to be said for low armor
values, after all! (and rolling spectacular failures/successes in a row!)

To drag it into traveller terms...think about what would happen if a
canister of flammable gas started leaking in your hold. Nope, simply
pressing that switch to open the airlock probably isn't the first thing
you would want to do...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:10:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> There's a book by whoever called "Mission of gravity that uses the above
> reasoning to make an extreme G planet with gravity varying from about 1G to
> perhaps 900 G at the equator.
> 

Mission of Gravity, by Hal Clement. Whether or not the equation is misused
to produce that planet, the planet couldn't exist. anything big enough to
have 900 G's anywhere on it's surface would pull itself into a sphere
rather rapidly.

I haven't read the book in ages and ages, though, so I don't remember the
handwaving details.

Damn...all this loose talk about handwaving is stirring some inexplicable
appetite for a corn-dog ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:44:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: re: K'Kree for T4... error

Your new skill Polearm is unnecessary.  *Melee* Combat (*not* Blade
Combat) covers all non-blade melee weapons, including polearms.  Just
replace all instances of "Polearm" with "Melee Combat" and it should be
OK.  

The problem came from the fact that CT didn't concern itself with
non-blade melee weapons, so the Alien Module on K'Kree had to come up with
a new skill to cover polearms.  But the core rules of T4 *have* covered
non-blade melee weapons, so a new skill "Polearm" isn't needed.  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:09:28 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Base symbols on good hex maps

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 16:37:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

At 02:55 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>First off, the symbols:  I have small stars, triangles, boxes, diamonds,
>>circles, individual letters, elongated diamonds, and probably a few other
>>symbols.

>>Standard ones:
>>Scout base: triangle
>>Scout way station:: empty triangle

>or a red triangle.

That is reasonable for color output.  I had not considered making the
postscript output color compatible, as I do not have access to a color
printer.  That seems like a reasonable idea, and I will look into seeing
how hard it will be. It would also be nice to color water worlds blue.

>>Naval base: star
>>Naval depot: star

>Usually shown as a white square.

In which era?  Since I have mostly seen stars, IIR, on DGP stuff, I might
make a command line option for CT vs. MT vs...

>Others I have heard used, but that are not canon:
>Army base: box ?
>Marine base: empty box

I have never seen these.. since every world will have an Army, and the
Marines tend to co-locate with the Navy, they might be redundant.

I expected that marine bases were always colocated with Navy bases, else
how would the marines get there, but I have had a trickle of people asking
for them.  When someone used them on me, I assumed they were actually
mercenary bases.

>>Vargr base: elongated diamond
>>Zhodani base: letter Z

>Actually, the map I have shows Zhodani bases as a white diamond.

Ah!  I like that better.  Do you have any maps with Vargr bases?  If so, I
am happy to switch.

>>The codes I have heard go something like:

>these are used in the UWP, not on the map.

Yes, I meant to say the _UWP_ codes, but mistyped.

>> M: Marine or mercenary base
>More often for mercenaries.

Certainly so in my world.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 13:26:01 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Base symbols on good hex maps

At 11:09 AM 5/2/97 -0700, Scott wrote:
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>>>Naval base: star
>>>Naval depot: star
>
>>Usually shown as a white square.
>
>In which era?  Since I have mostly seen stars, IIR, on DGP stuff, I might
>make a command line option for CT vs. MT vs...

In the Regency Sourcebook, Depots are shown as a solid black square on the
white maps.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1281
***********************************

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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1282



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1275
test: ignore
Hexagons, dodecahedra, icosahedra, hurrah!
Re: Space Combat
Re: Ship Combat
Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Long John design
Re: Re: Starship Combat
Re: Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Re: K'Kree for T4... error
Metator Update
Babylon 5 Movie!
Contact: Sayat (I: Biology)
Announcement: May THUDDD requirements

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:47:18 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1275

> 
> A GNN Corporate News Report
> 
>         Pan-Imperia Announces Sale of Older Fleet
> 
> (Ase, CORE) With the first of the PICH-1/2 "Guppy Class"
> Far Traders having proved their spaceworthiness and
> profitability over the last 6 months, Pan-Imperia Shipyards
> has announced plans to begin selling off the older ACCH
> "Long John" Class Cargo Haulers.
> <Corporate guff deleted>
> 
> When asked if ValuJump was merely dumping old and obsolete
> ships from its roster, Sadri angrily snapped "Rediculous! These
> ships are as spaceworthy as the day they were first laid down.
> The fact that ValuJump is still using nearly a dozen in its fleet
> at this moment should prove our trust and faith in the design. Not
> one of these ships is over 40 years old. It's simply not cost effective
> as a company to retain these ships as our own Guppy traders
> come out of the yards. As each Guppy is put into service, a Long
> John will become available, no ulterior motives there. If you
> feel you have to find a story, ask our Emperor and his ISBA why
> they felt the need to mandate an Imperium-wide freeze on cargo
> prices at  1000 Cr? What was wrong with the 4000 Cr  price that
> was common along the Sylean Main? What's wrong with
> allowing whatever the market will bear? Yet another example
> of the ISBA having a mandate to run roughshod over the free
> business owners of this sector under the much touted guise
> of 'Economics Over All'. We are just doing our part to bring
> equality back into the equation. These ships are economical
> enough that even if they were bought new today, they would be
> able to pull in enough profit to make monthly payments, even under
> the accursed 1000 Cr ceiling. At the prices we're offering them,
> money should be no problem."
> 

INS Bulletin ... 078-0002 ...

Sylea-Sylea : Imperial Spokesperson Kalagushiigii denied the "baseless and malicious" 
allegations of ValuJump chairman Darius Sadri that it was Imperial regulation that had 
resulted in the stabalization of cargo freighting prices to Cr 1000/ton. The fall from 
pre-Imperial levels was due to the massive lessening of the "risk premium" of starship 
travel, due to the increased safety and security brought by the unified Imperium and the 
hard work of the anti-piracy patrols of the Imperial Navy. Whilst there had been some 
Imperial regulation of trade and starship travel, such as mandatory transponder 
installation and use, the Imperium was willing to let the market be free, unless of 
course market failure threatened the economic stability of any of the Imperium's member 
worlds, in which case His Magesty reserved the right to use His IN transports to move 
commercial cargo within the Imperium.

>Shadow wrote :
 
 
> Metal asteroids get smelted in any of the many ways that writers have
> come up with over the years. The iron is useful for building, most
> belter ships won't *bother* with the expensive superdense, not when
> iron and nickel are so cheap. After extracting the nickel and iron, you
> refine the remainder down for most of the non-siderophilic metals.
> Things like uranium won't be there as it is too fond of silicates.
> 
> Stony asteroids get rendered down for silicon and oxygen. Some of the
> oxygen goes for life support. Some silicon goes for electronics. But
> most go together as silica (SiO2). Glass is *the* most common building
> material in any belt, and pretty damned common on worlds in systems
> with an active belter subculture.

Any idea how much a zero-G glass smelter would cost and weigh ?

> 
> Aluminum sheets seperated by a layer of foamed glass is a favored
> material for walls as it is light, strong, and insulates both temp and
> sound. Again, materials from stoney asteroids.
> 
> All the siderophilic elements will get extracted from stony asteroids.
> Including things like Uranium.

How valuable would uranium be in the Imperium ? Given nukes are maximally illegal, and 
that fission power would only be used by a small percentage of worlds, and if you need 
hard currency to buy the uranium, you might as well just buy a TL9 fusion plant.

> 
> Carbonaceous Chondritic bodies (chondrites) Are crazy compounds of
> carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc. These are the *real* bonanzas
> in most belts. Those are life support chemicals. Also needed for things
> like plastics. You aren't likely to find these in belts that are
> *really* close to their stars, but they'll be in all the others.

At a guess, you'd need Chemistry to analyze these to any point beyond "It's a chrondite 
rock", right ? My guess is that this is where the gem compounds  would be, which would 
be a major Belter target.

> 
> In belts that are far enough out you'll get ice asteroids. These will
> be mostly water, with ammonia, methane and traces of other stuff. These
> are *really* valuable, as they are the main source of hydrogen. Not
> only is it the fuel for your fusion reactors, and brobably for your
> hydrogen/oxygen manuevering jets, but it's also needed for water and
> other life support chemicals. And hydrogen is the *easiest* gas to
> lose.
> 

My guess is that you would actually put your base on a decent-size ice asteroid.

> So the valuable rocks *aren't* the metal ones.

Yup. Although the metal asteroids are probably valuable enough to be worthwhile grabbing 
when a payment on your reactor is due.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:36:44 +1200
From: B Lynch-Blosse <lynchblo@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz>
Subject: test: ignore

test

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Hexagons, dodecahedra, icosahedra, hurrah!

> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:49:59 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> 
> Did you know that if you make a standard flattened dodecahedron (standard
> planetary map) with hexes where there are as many hexes per triangle side
> as the planetary size digit then each hex is almost exactly 1000 km across
> at all planetary sizes.

The standard hex-based planetary map is an unfolded *icosahedron* -- a
20-sided regular polyhedron (familiar to any funny-dice gamer as a
20-sided die).  A dodecahedron is a 12-sided regular polyhedron, also
familiar to fans of funny dice.

One cool thing to notice is that if you put a dot in the center of each
face of an icosahedron, and connect adjoining dots with edges, the
resulting figure is a dodecahedron.  The reverse is also true.  Another
such pair is the octrahedron and the cube.  And, coolest of all, a
tetrahedron forms such a "pair" with itself!

Well, *I* think it's cool, anyway. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:36:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Space Combat

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Interestingly, I just ran a two ship combat abstractly, USING HEXES, but no
>hexmap. The ships were X hexes apart to start. When each moved they became
>Y hexes apart. I handled weapons fire and missiles the same way. I just
>kept track of the current range, and a little positioning information, on a
>sheet of paper. I didn't, and the PCs, didn't care about the exact position
>of the ships...just their relative position and facing. It worked very
>well.
>
>Don't ask me for exact rules though.  I used RPSCS 0.9..sort of, T4'ish
>weapons and basically "winged" the details.
>
>My point, though, is you (well *I*) can abstract from a detailed system
>more easily than I can detail from an abstract one.

I take your point - however, whatever system you use has to be simple (I'd
define RPSCS as simple in this context). The basic RPG ship combat does not
need the detail that was in TNE...

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:06:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Combat

Leonard Erickson/Shadow wrote:

>Just what *exactly* do you mean by "abstract"? It's not really
>*possible to do combat without something to represent the ships and
>something to show where they are/will be in relationship to each other.
>Anything more abstract than Mayday or the "lay them out on the table
>and measure" version of the Book 1 rules is *too* abstract. You might
>as well just roll arbitary dice and assign damage that way.

I mean something with a system like the old starter Traveller range bands,
(or even High Guard!). I actually quite like the range band basis in BSCS...

>The roleplaying *is* present, in that you get to determine your moves
>within the bounds of what your ship can do, and the success of attacks
>(and some defenses) will depend on *both* the spatial relationship of
>the ships *and* character skills like gunnery, and maybe even pilot.

I tend to run a more narrative style in the ship combat, and as a result
don't really want to loose the control over the player's fates that
switching to a board game style triggers. This hardens the blurred edges I
like on the rules system.


>I've often wondered if it'd be possible to come up with a "book combat"
>type system (like "Ace of Aces") for Traveller small ship actions. That
>is, each ship has a "book". You start out at one of several pages
>depending on the situation at the start of combat. Each of you chooses
>from one of the manuevers listed as possible on that page, and you both
>go to the resulting page, which gives a view of the now current
>situation, and you keep going like this until you escape, get killed,
>or get a kill.
>
>I know that it's *only* possible for one-on-one battles. And you'd have
>to carry the results of the attacks on a ship data sheet. But it might
>work out ok.

That would be nice - also IIRC Andy Lilly and co at CORE had a prototype
CCG for ship combat.. could make TCS interesting! ;-)


- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 20:35:51 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: "Deep Space" detection

At 12:25 PM 5/2/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Also note that they've detected Venus by radar from Earth. They used huge
>amounts of power and the Arecibo (diameter ca 300 m) antenna to do it
>methinks, the same planet is easily detected by the Mark I passive sensor
>known as eyball.

	Further note that all they did was DETECT it ... just that there was
something there. No information at all about its size, surface
characteristics, etc. Meanwhile, for a few thousand dollars, you can buy a
passive telescope that will let you see that there is, in fact, no UFO
hiding behind Hale-Bopp. Then, of course, you take it back to the store and
complain that the telescope is broken ...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 20:39:43 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

At 08:04 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>Major snippage
>
>> ... and nutheads still worry about reactors "blowing up." 
>
>And Chernobyl was....what, a figment of the nutheads imagination?

	Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion, which is what the nutheads are
always worrying about. It was a purely chemical explosion, caused by the
heat generated by the core meltdown. And it was caused by poor design,
negligent operators, and f*cked up maintenance.

	Incidentally, I remember some anti-nuke commentator in Britain complaining
after TMI that nobody got killed! After all, then people would realize just
how dangerous those things are. Completely ignored the fact that, in my
opinion, TMI showed how safely they're designed. Despite a comedy of errors
as large as Chernobyl, the failure was contained. If you were on-site when
it happened, you'd have gotten about as much radiation exposure as a
resident of Denver gets in a year.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 01:59:12 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Long John design

Nice basic ship design ... I think the economics would be improved 
if you ripped 64 tons of cargo and added 16 large staterooms (15 
high passesngers and two extra stewards). By my numbers you lose 
KCr 128 of cargo revenue per month and add KCr6 to salaries and 
KCr 32 to life support (total KCr 166) but gain KCr 300 per month 
in passangers ... more probably KCr250 or so, assuming some 
second-class passengers. This takes the design from marginally 
profitable to having a quite healthy margin.

This should let you lose another 5 tons of cargo or so to add 
minimal armament to the ship ... it may be designed for low-threat 
enviroments, but a sandcaster and a missile turret would make 
customers keener to use it IMO.

Also, is there any ruling in T4 about "fuel bladders" - temporary 
fuel storage in cargo areas - in my view a great way of turning a
high-capacity Jump-1 ship into a slower ship carrying less cargo
but capable of making it to worlds not on a Jump-1 main.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: 03 May 1997 01:57:11 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Starship Combat

>Did you know that if you make a standard flattened dodecahedron (standard
>planetary map) with hexes where there are as many hexes per triangle side
>as the planetary size digit then each hex is almost exactly 1000 km across
>at all planetary sizes.

Yup.  This was first published in JTAS years ago.  Too bad GDW kept on using
their original "7-hex" maps with the varying hex scales. :-(

I've always preferred to keep a constant hex scale, so all my maps are drawn
using this system.  What's more, it means that players can get a better feel
for how much surface area a world has.  I'm glad to see I'm not the only
person still doing this.

And for what it's worth, Metator uses this system as well.  <shamelss plug>

------------------------------

Date: 03 May 1997 02:01:41 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: "Deep Space" detection

>They used huge
>amounts of power and the Arecibo (diameter ca 300 m) antenna to do it
>methinks, the same planet [Venus] is easily detected by the Mark I passive
sensor
>known as eyball.

With the active source of the sun, an _immensely_ powerful signal generator
:-)

Seriously, I've always assumed that passive sensors detect mainly radiated
signals rather than reflected signals.  Haven't done any calculations, just a
gut feeling.  Is this an incorrect assumption?

------------------------------

Date: 03 May 1997 02:07:10 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Flood of the Millennium

>To drag it into traveller terms...think about what would happen if a
>canister of flammable gas started leaking in your hold. Nope, simply
>pressing that switch to open the airlock probably isn't the first thing
>you would want to do...

Oh God, don't remind me.

We had a gas leak at school last semester.  Most of my colleagues blithely
went back to their offices, turned on the lights so they could find their
handbags, and then turned off the lights (to save energy?) on the way out. 
One even finished her photocopying first!!!

I suspect the Traveller universe will be equally full of people who don't
understand technology, and believe that what they don't know can't hurt them.

------------------------------

Date: 03 May 1997 02:13:06 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: K'Kree for T4... error

>Your new skill Polearm is unnecessary.  *Melee* Combat (*not* Blade
>Combat) covers all non-blade melee weapons, including polearms.

Actually, a Polearms skill is probably not a bad idea.  After all, if you're
differentiating blades on the basis of length, then surely you should
differentiate between a club and a pike!

I prefer the following split:

Unarmed Melee Combat
Melee Combat (bashing)
Melee Combat (stabbing)
Melee Combat (slashing)

This differentiates combat skils by the style of attack, and doesn't give
undue preference to swords.

Mind you, if duels are a common element in the "honourable" society of the
Third Imperium, then having special skills just for swords makes sense.  In
this case, I would expect different societies to have their own unique combat
skills.

------------------------------

Date: 03 May 1997 02:30:54 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Metator Update

I've uploaded a new version of Metator to
<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html>

New features/fixes:

1) Animal editing is a bit better. Animal names are easier to assign. You can
now delete animal encounter tables.

2) Maps are scalable.

3) Map printing has been disabled until I figure out how to get icons
printing.  Any help appreciated.

4) Some scrolling bugs fixed. Others remain.

5) Colour/Black&White commands renamed Black Background/White Background, and
only enabled for maps.

Check it out, and send in your feedback.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:17:44 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Babylon 5 Movie!

I've seen something about a B5 movie on some of the B5 web site, 
but.....

I've just been informed by one of my trusty Traveller players that 
the B5 movie is due out in January on TNT.

It's supposed to be a full, two hour made for TV movie about the 
creation of the station.  Right now, the title is "Babylon 5:  The 
Beginning."

My player didn't know any more than that--he read it in one of his 
comic book trade magazines.  I'll let you guys know if I hear any 
more.

If you hear anything, then please let me know. 

I love B5.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:44:06 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Contact: Sayat (I: Biology)

Turns out that in the fermenting vacuity of my head, I have a *lot* of
detail accreting around the idea of a 'Hiveroid' minor race of humaniti.  I
thought I'd start writing it up as a series of shorter, sub-topical posts
and see if people are interested in reading more.

At this point, I haven't given the species an astrographical location -- an
isolated cluster of 2-3 systems someplace to trailing of the Imperium makes
the most sense, but they were originally (mis)conceived of as a Zhodani
client state, so I'm still trying to think up a rationale for how that
could be explained.

Further 'chapters' I have in mind would be II: Modern Society, III:
Homeworld, IV: History, V: Politics; VI: Adventure Hooks.

I've borrowed quite a few ideas from various sources, both published and
not; hopefully it will be obvious where I've done so, and credit is due to
my sources.  Generally, I've tried not to point out what aspects of the
Sayat are Hiver-influenced and which might be 'native', but rather to
present observations and comparisons and leave the whole thing a bit
mysterious.

I really encourage people to respond and comment on this, either on the
list or by email.  I'm pretty flame-retardant (flame-retarded?) and think
the best criticism can often be the harshest criticism, so pull no punches.
Biology is not my strong field by any means -- I'd especially like to hear
corrections and new ideas from those on the list who are more knowledgable
about this than I.

********************************************************************************

                                The Sayat
                        A Minor Race of Humaniti
                           Part I:  Biology

The Sayat are a subspecies of humaniti found on Marhach (Milieu 0 UPP
A665887-A ?), a cold but essentially Earthlike planet located well beyond
the Imperial frontier.

APPEARANCE:
The Sayat are somewhat smaller than the typical Solomani or Vilani --
averaging 1.6 m tall, and massing approximately 55 kg.  They have slender
frames and long limbs; while their fingers are exceptionally long, the
palms and feet are disproportionately small.

Skulls are brachycephalic, with generally round or oval upper faces, high
cheekbones, and a slightly triangular, pointed jaw and chin structure.
Their convex, high-bridged noses are fairly small but well-adapted to
warming air.  Eyes are markedly large, exhibit reflective retinas (like
Terran cats or dogs), have large dark irises and minimal albumen, and are
protected from cold and snow by thick, heavy lashes.

Dentition is slightly different than that found in the Solomani and Vilani
strains of humaniti:   the Sayat lack "wisdom teeth," and their first
semimolars (both uper and lower) are canine in form.  In general, the teeth
are smaller and harder than those of other humans.

Hair is coarse, thick, straight, and jet black in color, slightly
bluish-tinged.  With age, it greys and eventually turns a snowy white.
Despite the cool climate of the world, they have minimal facial and body
hair.

The Sayat have a generous layer of subcutaneous fat, which provides
insulation on their cold homeworld -- and in emergencies, can readily be
converted into energy.  This layer gives them a sleek, rounded appearance,
despite their thin frames.

Their homeworld orbits a cooler star than Sol, but due to its thin
atmosphere (almost lacking an ultraviolet ray-blocking layer) and weak
electromagnetic field, the planet is a relatively high-radiation
environment.  Accordingly, Sayat 'pseudomelanin' (biochemically distinct
from the melanin found in both Solomani and Vilani subspecies) is an
efficient absorber of UV radiation and producer of necessary vitamin D.
This pseudomelanin imparts a coppery skin complexion with a distinct
reddish tint.  When exposed to sunlight for any length of time, the Sayat
tan to a vivid dark russet color.  Nicknames for the Sayat among their
interstellar neighbors often refer to this feature.

Another physiological change from the original human template is the
so-called "muting" of the vocal apparatus.  Essentially, Sayat vocal cords
do not vibrate except under extreme stress (i.e., shouting, screaming),
preventing the production of normal speech sounds.  Rather, the Sayat
"whisper."  This feature has had significant effect on their language and
communication habits; however, they are not strictly speaking mute.

PHYSIOLOGY:
Due to the lower gravity of their homeworld, Sayat are typically a little
less muscular than the human norm; however, they have slightly faster
reaction times.  They do have measurably greater endurance and stamina than
the Solomani or Vilani, but their strange circadian rhythms may cause
exhaustion at inopportune times, even after adaptation to a local standard.
Tolerance for low temperatures is usually much greater than usual for
Solomani or Vilani.  They may find dense atmospheres, particularly those
with a high oxygen content, difficult to breathe.

There is an extremely high occurance of left-handedness or ambidexterity in
the population -- in fact, only about 30-40% of the population is strongly
right-handed.  A similar feature is found among the Darrian of the Spinward
Marches, in whose case it is hypothesized that a much larger than average
bridge between the two lobes of the brain contributes to their increased
inventiveness, imagination, and mathematical, musical, and artistic
ability.  The same might be supposed of the Sayat, though these qualities
are not the overt cultural fixation that they are for the Darrian.  In any
case, tools and implements are customarily designed to be used with either
hand.

SENSES are roughly equivalent to those of other subspecies of humaniti,
though vision is adapted to lower levels of light (c. 52% of Terra's).
Accordingly, glare-cutting prostheses are standard wear in local daytime
(especially in snowy or icy terrain) and even in Terran-normal lighting
conditions; night-vision is superior to Solomani and Vilani.  A form of
color-blindness (or color-vagueness) is quite common in varying degrees.
Sense of smell and taste is slightly less acute than the human norm as
well; hearing tends to be sharper.

BIOCHEMICAL and cellular-level changes due to geneering are quite extensive.

The Sayat have several unusual or unique enzymes which aid in protein
synthesis; they are able to metabolize one extra amino acid, apparently
native to their homeworld.  Related to this biochemistry is a
characteristic body odor, which is cannot be perceived by many humans.
Other species may be able to quite well, however; the Vargr tend to find
the smell pleasant (perhaps contributing to their tendency to regard many
Sayat as having high 'charisma'); the K'kree, on the other hand, find the
Sayat odor highly offensive and nauseating ("like wet blood").

Sayat blood types (A, N, O, S, Z) are often compatible or semi-compatible
with a few Solomani, one Vilani, and several Zhodani types.

Their lungs are human-sized, but have a more efficient oxygen-extracting
mechanism, permitting normal activity in their slightly thinner and
oxygen-poor atmosphere.

There is somewhat greater reiteration of genes than in most human species,
providing good "backup" against genetic damage by virus or radiation.
This is an unusual feature in modern geneered species, and serves as the
basis for speculation that the Sayat are one of Grandfather's experiments,
and were not created by the Hiver and/or Solomani in more recent times.

REPRODUCTION:
The most obvious change, and in some respects the most drastic change, from
the human norm is in the realm of reproduction.  The Sayat are a
monosexual, homozygotic species.  Two ova from different individuals are
able to merge and form a fertilized embryo; mechanical means must be used
to introduce one ovum into the uterus of the birth parent.  Normally ova of
a single individual are incapable of fertilizing one another, but
exceptions are not unheard of, and as a result, spontaneous pregnancies are
account for perhaps 1 in 100,000 births.  Such parthenogenetic children are
genetically identical copies of their birth parent.   Live offspring are
born after a gestation period of about 258.5  standard days.  Multiple
births are extremely rare -- maybe one in ten million.  They are not
inter-fertile with other human species (either males or females).

Fertility -- or at least successful impregnation -- is relatively low, and
the natural rate of population growth is slow.   While this hampers
expansion on the interstellar scale, it has slowed the pace of development
so that the integration and efficiency of the homeworld and of colonies is
very high.  Perhaps due to the long lack of other human species to which to
compare themselves, they see nothing wrong with their rate of population
growth, and have never particularly sought to increase fertility by medical
or social means.

LIFESPAN:
A biochemical mechanism similar to that present in the Vlazhdumecta give a
lifespan considerably longer than the human norm.  In premodern times,
natural lifespans of 80 years were normal; at the current state of medical
science, this has been pushed up to 100 years as the average.  They have
not (yet) produced anything directly equivalent to the anagathic treatments
known to some other human subspecies, however.  Senescence usually does not
start until about the age of 60 (coinciding with menopause), and is very
limited until the last 2-3 years of life -- during which time the physical
and mental breakdown is quite rapid.  As among the Vlazhdumecta, this is
usually the signal for suicide.

Puberty and mental maturity usually begins around the age of 15, and full
physical maturity is reached in about 5 years.  In this regard, they are
somewhat slower to mature than many other subspecies of humaniti of a
comparable level of socio-technological development

DIET:
The Sayat are omnivorous, tending towards carnivorism -- and traditionally,
blood-drinking.  One of their enzymatic adaptations allows digestion of a
native Marhachian amino acid (otherwise unusable), after it has been
semi-metabolized into the blood of other geneered Terran organisms present
on the planet.  Thus, the ancient Sayat herding economy is based on the
production of blood as much as of milk and meat.  Animal blood is still a
traditional, ceremonial drink in Sayat culture, serving something of the
same function that champagne has in Solomani culture.

Generally speaking, Sayat are able to extract nutrition from a fairly wide
variety of biochemistries; greater than is typical for humaniti, in any
case.  A flexible metabolism permits easy and safe fluctuation between
fasting and feasting; the lipids used for energy storage in the Sayat body
are efficient and rapidly convertible back into energy.  Even without
advance preparation, a Sayat in good health can often go without food for
up to a standard week and suffer negligible ill effects.  Their metabolism
is also able to step up into a faster-burning, high-energy level, which
permits comfortable activity in cold climates with limited technological
assistance, so long as a steady supply of food is available.  Sayat who are
in this "prolonged overdrive" are constantly nibbling on something.

In general, Sayat gain and loose weight rapidly, and it shows up clearly in
their appearance.  Much small talk and polite conversation in Sayat society
revolves around commenting on one another's plumpness or bonyness.

REST:
Their home planet has an extremely slow period of axial revolution -- just
over 103 standard hours.  The Sayat have adapted to this environment by
largely doing away with anything recognizable as a circadian rhythm.
Season and lattitude (lighting levels) and temperature affect these
patterns, but it is hard to predict any individual's activity.  In any
given period of 103 hours, a Sayat will sleep for 39, engage in
low-activity rest and relaxation for 20, work for 32, and have one or more
shorter bursts of intense work activity totalling 12 hours -- on the
average.  Note that the metabolic flexibility and greater stamina permits
extremely prolonged periods of exercise -- 24 hour work shifts are not
considered particularly onerous by most Sayat (though they're not popular,
either).

PSIONICS:
The Sayat seem to have approximately the same frequency and levels of
psionic talents as other branches of humaniti.  As with the Zhodani,
though, early childhood screening and training causes more talented
individuals to be found, creating the impression of there being 'more
psionics' in the Sayat subspecies.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Announcement: May THUDDD requirements

THUDDD - May 1997 - "Exploratory Trader"

The vessel to be produced is an exploratory trader.  The design is being
commissioned by the Imperial government (through the Ministry of
Commerce); their intent is that vessels of this class will be purchased
and operated by megacorporations and possibly smaller speculative
enterprises.  Subsidies are under consideration. 

The following requirements must be met:

* Size:         3000 dt or less
* Jump:         J2 or more
* Acceleration: 1G or more

The vessel must be capable of:

* Wilderness refueling (directly or via carried craft)
* Operation for 1+ year away from starport facilities
  (repair, resupply, recreation, etc.)
* Landing/retrieving crew and cargo on planetary surfaces
  (directly or via carried craft)
* Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft

Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.

Provision must be made for security of landing parties and the care of
wounded crew members. 

The purpose of this vessel is exploratory trade, well beyond the Imperial
frontier.  As such, normal economic analysis based on intra-Imperial trade
profitability does not apply well to this vessel.  However, as with any
trader, a higher percentage of hull volume devoted to cargo implies higher
profits -- *if* the requirements above are also met.  The same comments
apply to the vessel's price.

***

Special notes for the May THUDDD:

* Entries (and other THUDDD-related correspondence) should be directed
  to me at <cberry@cinent.net>.

* Schedule:
    Entry deadline is midnight Sunday May 18 1997 PDT.
    Entries will be available for voting by midnight Monday May 19.
    Voting will close at midnight Sunday May 25.
    Results will be announced by midnight Tuesday May 27.

* Valid design systems are SSDS and QSDS 1.5.

* All designs must follow the standard THUDDD ship profile format
  (see April's THUDDD for many examples).  The design system used
  must be clearly specified.

* QSDS designs may use components from non-QSDS sources, if these
  components are purchased without the 25% QSDS discount.  Most
  notably, hulls from the Huge Table of Hulls fall into the non-
  QSDS category.

* All THUDDD-related activity will be both posted to the TML and
  ISBA mailing lists *and* made available on the Web at:

    http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Ladies and gentlemen, start your spreadsheets! :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1282
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1283



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: "Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)
"Citizens of the TML"
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Technical considerations: nuke missiles
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Flood of the millenia
Re: The physics of Jumpspace
Re: Base symbols on good hex maps
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Starship Combat
Re: technical considerations
Re: Flood of the millenia
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: The physics of Jumpspace
Re: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)
Re: Flood of the Millenium
Re: Future Disasters
Re: Flood of the Millennium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:28:56 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: "Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	jlindsay@direct.ca [SMTP:jlindsay@direct.ca]
>Sent:	Friday, May 02, 1997 10:32 AM
>To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject:	"Citizens of TML" [VERY LONG] (0/1)
>
>Here it is (again)-- the April 30th 1997 listing for the "Citizens of
>TML".  I don't know what happened last time so I am sending it
>complete as one component this time.
><Snip>
> 
>[andy long]
>Sorry James, it didn't come in the mail - can you repost it privately ?
>
>Andy
>================================================================
>smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>		andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
>		o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 07:42:47 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: "Citizens of the TML"

Apparently the Traveller mailing list is set to prevent attachments
from being posted to the list (of any size).  So instead of uploading
"Citizens of the TML" in a bunch of separate posts (which would end up
being over twice as large as the condensed ZIP format I originally
tried to upload), I will be making it available on my website.  The
URL is listed below (check the "Gaming" section).

*sigh*

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 07:52:50 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

On 03 May 1997 02:07:10 GMT, you wrote:

> We had a gas leak at school last semester.  Most of my colleagues blithely
> went back to their offices, turned on the lights so they could find their
> handbags, and then turned off the lights (to save energy?) on the way out. 
> One even finished her photocopying first!!!
> 
> I suspect the Traveller universe will be equally full of people who don't
> understand technology, and believe that what they don't know can't hurt them.

I'm sorry but these individuals will have to try a LOT harder to make
this year's Darwin Award nominee list.  My favourite is the country
yokel that decided to use an unfired .22 LR cartridge as a fuse in his
pappy's pick-up truck.  Yeow!


James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 04:46:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Technical considerations: nuke missiles

   Hi.

> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 22:22:32 -0400
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@jerry.pcisys.net>

>         Well, then we need to get the Official Traveller Handwaving
> Gymnastics Team on the job to explain how come 

>         a) Nobody uses fusion warheads on missiles, despite their being
> smaller and more powerful than fission, or
>         b) Why nuclear dampers work on fusion warheads, or
>         c) Why, despite all the technology advances (and despite how we can
> think of several right now), nobody has been able to create a fusion warhead
> that doesn't require a fission trigger

   I like option (c) above.  Quite frankly, I haven't been convinced
   that any of the several alternatives to fission discussed on this
   list are at all feasible.  Most that I've seen proposed come with the
   explanation that Trav tech can certainly provide enough /energy/ for
   a fusion /reaction/,  but that's a far cry from being able to
   provide enough /power/ for a fusion /explosion/.  There's a crucial
   difference between energy and power, between a reaction and an
   explosion.  That difference has to do with timescale.  A pound of
   coal releases more energy than a pound of TNT, but we all know that
   a burning pound of coal is not as dangerous as a burning pound of
   TNT, because TNT burns many orders of magnitude faster, releasing
   many orders of magnitude more /power/.  It is this power output that
   makes explosives dangerous.

   While a Traveller power plant may be able to release more /energy/
   than an equally sized fission trigger, there's no way it can
   release more /power/.  The power output of a fission bomb is
   staggering, and it is this power that is needed to initiate a fusion
   explosion.  Any less power, and you will initiate a mere fusion
   reaction which will emit its energy over a long period (like coal)
   instead of a short one (like TNT).

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:42:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

In mail you write:

> Of course, you can get explosives out of a stockyard, and what you can do
> with fertilizer and fuel oil...well I guess we *all* know about that. 

For smaller bombs, guess what thgose "instant cold" packs have in them?
Yep. Ammonium nitrate. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:32:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

In mail you write:

> Did you know that if you make a standard flattened dodecahedron (standard
> planetary map) with hexes where there are as many hexes per triangle side
> as the planetary size digit then each hex is almost exactly 1000 km across
> at all planetary sizes.

I think you mean *icosahedron* (20 sides). Dodecahedron is only 12
sides, and the sides are pentagons.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:14:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the millenia

In mail you write:

> Read the "HOT ZONE", and have a disease based on Ebola (I tried this, but
> as soon as the players realised what was going on, they **ran**, fast.)

One interesting possibility is that due to the length of jump, a ship
could jump out before any sysmptoms show, and have everyone *dead* or
in low berths by the time it exits jump. 

The boys in Beltwatch *don't* want to have to deal with a ship coming
out of jump with a distress signal going and the code indicating
"plague". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:37:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The physics of Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> So Our Heroes could detect a black hole in isolation, more and more easily
> the smaller it gets.  I just hope jump breakout near a black hole is rather
> further out than 100 diameters....  (Tidal forces!  Eeeeeew!)

If we accept the idea that the 100 diameter limit is just an
approximation that works for planets with normal density, then you are
safe. Because that makes the limit be *based* on tidal force strength!
So you'd pop out at the distance where tidal forces are the same as at
100 diameters from an object of more reasonable density.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:51:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Base symbols on good hex maps

Here are the codes from Second Survey. A friend zapped off the page
with the code list back when I was writing some software:

A: Naval base and Scout base 	Imperial
B: Naval base and Way station	Imperial
C: Corsair Base			Vargr
D: Depot			Imperial
E: Embassy Center		Hiver
F: Military and Naval Base
G: Naval Base			Vargr
H: Naval Base and Corsair Base	Vargr
J: Naval Base
K: Naval Base			K'kree
L: Naval Base			Hiver
M: Military Base
N: Naval Base			Imperial
O: Naval Outpost		K'kree
P: Naval Base			Droyne
Q: Military Garrison		Droyne
R: Clan Base			Aslan
S: Scout Base			Imperial
T: Tlauku Base			Aslan
U: Tlauku and Clan Base		Aslan
V: Scout/Exploration Base
W: Way Station			Zhodani
Y: Depot			Zhodani
Z: Naval/Military Base		Zhodani

I think the inclusion of the F, J, and V codes was to keep from
painting themselves into a corner. So I suspect that this is the
definitive list.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:12:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

> Okay, all you math and physics folks: how can I calculate the approximate
> natural gravity of an asteroid, based on its size and density?  What's the
> approximate gravity on Ceres?  How does this vary on a long non-spherical
> object like a big asteroid?  What's the approximate natural gravity on,
> say, a 1km x 0.5km x 5km rock?

It's *really* ugly figuring such things. Luckily Ceres is big enough
that it will be roughly spherical. So you just need the mass and
radius. A=GM/r^2

For irregular shapes, you have to sum the pull of all the atoms. This
requires either heavy number crunching or messy calculus or both. 

If you feel up to it, establish a 3d array, and stick in figures for
mass at each location. Then take another 3d array, and for each point
figure the strength *and direction* of the attraction from each point
in the other array. Sum the vectors. The result is a crude map of the
gravity field.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:35:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

>>                                 6.7E-11 * Mass of asteroid (kg)
>>        g (in Earth gravities) = --------------------------------
>>                                 9.8 * (Radius of asteroid (m))^2
>
>>Try the formula above for different values of R representing the extremes
>>of the asteroid shape (recall R is _not_ diameter, but distance from the
>>surface to the center of mass).  The gravity will smoothly vary between
>>those values as you traverse the surface.
>
> There's a book by whoever called "Mission of gravity that uses the above
> reasoning to make an extreme G planet with gravity varying from about 1G to
> perhaps 900 G at the equator.

No, Clement's "Misson of Gravity" gets the gravity variance "honestly".
The planet has a day that is 17.8 minutes long! The gravity is 3 g at
the equator and somewhere between 700 and 900 at the poles (he never
*does* give an exact figure).

The drop in gravity is due to *spin*, and is partly compensated for by
the extreme flattening of the planet. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:34:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

In mail you write:

> I agree it doesn't happen with hexes IF you only measure distances along
> the three axes that hexes are correct on. Squares are correct on two
> perpendicular axes. Any arbitrary distance will be wrongly measured by both
> systems and the big advantage to squares is that they're easier to fit onto
> normal deckplans ie arbitration on in what square/hex a feature is supposed
> to be are less frequent. Count each diagonal as 1.5 and be done with it.

you are figuring the distances *backwards*. The way you find the
distance between two hexes or squares is to count along an axis that
goes in the right direction until you are as close as that direction
will take you. Then move on the axis that now rruns straight towards
the destination.

With hexes, the distance gotten this way is reasonably close to the
real distance. With squares, you have to do the d=sqrt(x^2+y^2) bit.

*That* is why wargames use hex grids. You get a reasonablke accurate
resukt from only an addition instead of squares and square roots. 

Also, try figuring *movement* on a square grid. You can move distance
X, and you want to go in some arbitrary direction. How do you figure
out which square to stop on *without* a ruler?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:20:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: technical considerations

In mail you write:

>> We use the heat and pressure to overcome the *electromagnetic
>> repulsion* between the nuclei. At high temps and pressures, the nuclei
>> hit hard enough when they crash "into" each other that *in spite* of
>> the repulsion, they get close enough for the strong nuclear force to
>> pull them together.
>
>> Make the nuclear force stronger, and you can lower the temp/pressure
>> required for fusion. Make it weaker and you raise it.
>
>    You make a good point, and it illustrates well why I think damping
>    fusion will be much harder than damping fission.  You see, the
>    nuclear force is many times stronger than the electromagnetic force,
>    and the nuclear (strong) force has a finite range with a relatively
>    well defined drop off at 1 femptometer, and it saturates.  All this
>    means that, barring a little fuzziness, the nuclear force either
>    dominates a reaction or doesn't enter at all.  Once you raise a
>    temperature high enough to overcome the coulomb barrier, your
>    reaction will be dominated by nuclear forces, and the coulomb forces
>    will cease to contribute any appreciable fraction of the interaction.

Any chance that the damper could change the *range* of the nuclear force?
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:18:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the millenia

In mail you write:

> << Read the "HOT ZONE", and have a disease based on Ebola (I tried this, but
> as soon as the players realised what was going on, they **ran**, fast.) >>
>
> Done that...actually, did it before I'd even heard of Ebola, although the 
> symptoms are very similar. You can find out more in my campaign diary (if 
> anyone's interested, I'll explain the real story).

Well, I'm reminded of the time we sat down with one of the Arduin
Grimoire books and tried to figure out which of the diseases were
actually possible. Turned out that a bunch of the nastier ones *were*.

A strain of E. coli developed for recycling cellulose waste into
methane for fuel actually exists and was shelved because it can live in
the human digestive tract. The results would be much like what ranchers
call "bloat". Uncontrollable production of intestinal gas, faster than
it can be "passed". If surgical intervention isn't taken, the guts
swell until they rupture.

How about an organism that eats collagen. That makes your skin a prime
source of food. And collagen is what binds cells together into organs
and muscles, even bones. If your immune system can't kill it, you'll
just start sloughing off layers of cells until you die as a puddle of
cells. The "Flesh-eating" bacteria in the real world works something
like this.

I don't recall the others, but you get the idea.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:54:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

> Would there be a difference in "natural" gravity and artificial
> gravity that one could detect? Would a grav plate be too regular are
> operate in waves/ pulses or some other means of detecting that one
> was in an artificial environ- ment and not on a planet? This has
> ramifications to an adventure I'm currently working on, so speak up
> people!

Unless artificial gravity is some force that affects individual
particles but is otherwise totally unlike gravity (not likely) then
it's very unlikely to be easily distinguished from "real" gravity.
Heck, you can't tell the difference between *acceleration* and gravity!

That's the "technical" side of things. On the "practical" side of
things, the way field strength varies is going to be more than a little
different. Unfortunately, since gravity is the *weakest* force we know
of detecting this is damned hard.

In case anyone is surprised by the idea of gravity as a *weak* just
consider that a cheap toy magnet can exert more force on a piece of
iron than all the mass of the earth. The static charge from rubbing a
pirce of fur on a glass rod will attract small objects more strongly
than the earth. 

It'd take lab grade equipment to detect the fact that the gravity in a
room changes from floor to ceiling. And I bet that artificial gravity
units could be adjusted to have such a change (it'd be a pain, as it'd
reuire having the field expand as it goes up, which has some problems
with keeping it confined.

It's equivalent to trying to detect the difference between a
geometrically flat floor and one that matches the curve of the planet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:26:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The physics of Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Ok, my original conception of this thing was as a big sphere, the
> inside surface of which is lined w/ these radiators. In the center of
> the sphere is the "h-singularity" that sucks in the heat the
> radiators put out. Can anyone critique this as a viable design,
> physics aside?

Well, there's the problem of how you keep the H-s in the middle.

And going into physics, the amount of heat absorbed by the H-s is
proportional to its surface area. You *don't* want a point. You want
the biggest sphere you can get. Better yet, an oblate spheroid as that
has a lot more area for the volume. 

You are still limited by the rate at which your radiators emit energy,
even if the H-s is one way.

> [Which brings up another question I have been wanting to ask, what happens
> to a black hole that doesn't have anything to suck in? I know that there is 
> always the random scattered atoms in "empty" space, but I am more familiar
> with the concept of the hole sucking down the life force of its nearby com-
> panion star(s). Does a hole that gets formed out in a relative void just lie
> "dormant" except for what it sweeps out of the space around it? How dangerous
> would one of these be to our travellers, i.e. how easy/hard would it be to
> detect one from several parsecs away if you thought you were jumping into
> an empty hex?]

Black holes don't "need" to suck in matter. They can easily occur in
isolation. They'll be easily detectable unless *very* old, as they are
supernova remanents. So that means that until the nebula has had
millions of years to dissipate, it'll be obvious to anyone who knows
what to look for that there ought to be a neutron star or black hole in
the area.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:43:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Black holes (Re: The physics of Jumpspace)

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist so bear with me. If matter-antimatter pairs are
> constantly forming throughout the universe and if the antimatter
> part is on the inside of the event horizon, then I can see how the
> black hole would slowly evaporate.
>
> However, the matter part of the pair should form inside the event
> horizon just as often as the antimatter. So, the black hole gains
> mass from the matter half of the pair and loses mass from the antimatter
> half. The net result is that the black hole is in equilibrium.
>
> Have I missed something?

Yes. The explanation you quoted isn't the one Hawking gives. The way it
works is that Planck's constant can also be used to state that you
can't determine the *energy* of a system without taking some time to do
so. The shorter the time the less certain the energy. 

So, all over the universe, you have energy appearing from nothing and
returning before the time limit expires. Energy above a certain amount
spontaneously breaks down to a particle of matter and its matching
antiparticle. And when the time limit hits, they disappear.

So, near a black hole, when this hapens, one of the particles (it
doesn't mater *which* as they have the same mass) can get sucked in
while the other one heads away from the hole. Since you can't get
anything back from inside the hole (it's effectively one *big*
particle), when the time limit expires, the *hole* has to lose the
energy, and the particle that was heading out continues to do so. The
"rules" are satified, as the universe doesn't care *where* the energy
disappears from justy so it disappears before the time limit!

Say the hole has a mass of X and each particle has a mass of N. 

Start:	hole of mass X
    1:  hole of mass X		energy of 2N
    2:	hole of mass X		particle of mass N	particle of mass N
    3:	hole of mass X+N				particle of mass N
    4:  hole of mass X+N	energy of -2N		particle of mass N
	(X+N)- 2N = X-N
    3:	hole of mass X-N				particle of mass N

Since you can't get 2N of energy out of a particle massing N, it all
has to come out of the black hole. So it *appears* that the hole has
emitted a particle, but it actually hasn't.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:41:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millenium

In mail you write:

>>Fusion requires heat & pressure to maintain the reaction (or a nuclear
>>damper in "enhance" mode).
>
> On the other hand, a reasonably simple series of computer/equipment failures
> can turn a fusion plant into a hard rad source to bake the nearest city...

Not without melting itself into slag. Remember the inverse square law!

> Of course, it doesn't have to go "boom" to be a problem. Three Mile Island
> was a narrowly averted meltdown.

TMI was much *worse* than any accident scenario that had been proposed
by the anti-nuke people. If their claims were remotely close to the
truth, much of the area would be an uninhabitable radioactive
wasteland. Instead they barely exceeded their legal emission levels.
Matter of fact, last I heard, it was thought that TMI actually *did*
melt down, at least partially. 

> Chernobyl (sp?) was a full-fledged one.

Chernobyl had *no* containment. And it wasn't a meltdown. It exploded
after the graphite in the core caught fire. For all practical purposes
Chernobyl is worse than what terrorists could do to a properly designed
plant. The crew couldn't have done worse if they'd been *trying* to
make it blow up. But it took that criminally bad design to let them do it.

> A
> power plant up here in Canada (one of the "super-safe" CANDU plants) was
> stopped a few years ago because they found out a contractor was using
> sub-spec steel in the superstructure, which would have rendered the
> containment vessel basically useless.

You can't do much about criminal stupidity. Personally, I rather like
the Roman ceremony for opening a bridge or aqueduct. They put the chief
engineer in a boat anchored under the central span. Then they turned on
the water or started heavy traffic across. If it collapsed, guess who
died first?

>>Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
>>into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
>>"boom".
>
> Bingo. So the locals have to choose between chemical and possible
> radioactive pollution...

No, they get both. Coal plants emit levels of radioactive material
(mostly fly ash) that would get a nuclear plant shut down.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:20:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Future Disasters

In mail you write:

> Galactic plasma streams. Not terribly likely, even in the timeframe of the
> Imperium, but if you're playing in the very far future.... The Galactic
> Nucleus becomes active, pumping out huge streamers of plasma, some of which
> might swoop down across the galactic disc. Hey, you never know...

Combine with the recent post about the positron stream from the core
and add a focusing effect by part of the galactic magnetic field. It
won't bother planets much, at least not ones with enough of an
atmosphere and mag field to make a decent set of Van Allen type belts.
But ships will need *lots* of shielding.

> Spontaneous natural nuclear reactions. A river is eroding its way through
> an old mountain range. It's sweeping up uranium particles and slowly
> depositing them onto the river's delta where it empties into the sea. What
> a great spot for a resort community - nice beaches, fishing, waterskiing,
> scuba diving... Did the colonists bother to do a complete geological
> survey? Did they notice those interesting uranium depositions? Will a small
> seismic disturbance cause an undersea landslide and a sudden critical mass
> reaction? Tune in next week and find out...

More likely scenario...

An area with hotsprings and the like finally cuts through into a rich
uranium deposit. The water acts as a moderator, allowing the formation
of a natural reactor, much like the ones we've found the remains of in
the Congo. As the water flow thru the formation varies, the reactor
cycles from on to off. Say the reactor only runs during the rainy
season, the resort was surveyed and built during the "dry" season
(figure a hot star so the planet has a *long* year). So the first time
guests are there over the wet season, people start getting sick for no
reaon. And maybe this has been going on long enough that there are
micro-organisms, plants, even animals adapted to the higher rad levels.
So the ecosystem changes as the rad level rises.

> Fun universe we live in, isn't it?

One from one of Julia Ecklar's stories (Tide of Stars, Analog, Jan 95).
Planet with no moon, only slight solar tides, and a climate such that
the temp never drops to 4C. So the oceans never "turn over". So the
deeps get depleted in oxygen and have an anaerobic ecology. At some
point this builds up until it reaches the surface and the whole planet
gets gassed by the Hydrogen Sulphide released... This really happens in
some tropical lakes on Earth. It can happen in oceans on a warm enough
planet under the right conditions. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:30:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

In mail you write:

> This is true if you restrict the problem to making the *fuel itself*
> explode, a la an atom bomb.  However, making the *plant as a whole*
> explode (and distribute fallout over a fairly wide area) is much easier;
> at Chernobyl, they managed it accidentally, and at TMI almost did the
> same.

Well, Chernobyl had no containment worthy of the name (still doesn't).
TMI didn't come all that close. What they *did* almost have to do was
vent the containment. Which would have grossly exceeded the allowable
emissions for the plant but not been all that dangerous downwind.

> The key to realize is that, in the event of a runaway fission reaction,
> the fuel rods will try to spontaneously disassemble (love that
> euphemism!), usually by melting/fracturing rather than blowing up per se.
> If allowed to do so, the threat to surrounding areas is over...but the
> interior of the reaction vessel is an utter loss, unrecoverable for
> hundreds to thousands of years thanks to the radioactive material flung
> around at random inside.

At our TL that is true. With either nuclear dampers, or fusion torches
and the "isotope sorters" I've described in the past, it's not that big
a deal. With the dampers, you just accelerate things until all the
stuff has decayed.

With the fusion refining setup, you just chop the contaminated stuff
up, feed it through and rebuild with the purified elements. You keep
the radio-isotopes, as they have industrial uses. 

> At both TMI and Chernobyl, the fuel rods were hotter and more deformed
> than had been predicted.  The cooling water flashed to live steam on
> contact with the rods, and at Chernobyl the rods themselves shattered from
> thermal shock as well.  The resulting steam explosion trashed the interior
> of the reactor at TMI, and cracked the containment vessel wide open at
> Chernobyl; in the latter case, chunks of the fuel rods landed over a
> kilometer away (!), and significant amounts of radioactive material were
> dispersed over millions of square kilometers.

There *wasn't* a containment at Chernobyl. Just a normal building,
reinforced pretty normally. So the blast ripped the entire roof off
over the reactor.

>> Coal will burn quietly once you get it started. If you divide it up
>> into a fine dust and aerate the dust well, then you can get it to go
>> "boom". 
>
> Almost any combustible material reduced to airborne dust will burn with
> explosive force.  This used to happen fairly often to wheat siloes, for
> example, before modern safeguards were developed -- and even now, a silo
> explodes from time to time.

And coal mines tended to go boom too.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1283
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 4 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1284



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Radar observations of Venus
Polyhedra
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Re: Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Technical considerations: nuke missiles
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: The clever GM
The Imperium does not claim worlds??
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: My UPP write-up
Re: Hexagons, dodecahedra, icosahedra, hurrah!
Who we are
Who We Are
FSY's May THUDDD entry.
Re: Future Disasters
Something for gearheads

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:21:44 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Radar observations of Venus

We've done more than "just see" Venus from earth-bound radars.
In 1970, the radio telescope at Goldstone mapped the near side
of the planet with a resolution of 5 km.  Arecibo improved that
to 3 km a few years later.

They had to do all sorts of tricks to get that resolution.  
Goldstone is a 64 meter antena, operating at 12.5 cm wavelength.
This gives a 7 arc-minute beam width.  Venus is only 1 arc-minute
across at closest approach.  Instead, they made use of the
fact that Venus is a sphere (almost).  The first returns to come
back were from the center, the later returns from the limb.
They also used the Doppler shift from its rotation.  Returns
from the east side were blue shifted, while the west side was
red shifted (remember Venus is retrograde).  These two features
allowed them to build up maps better than those made by the
radar on the Pioneer Venus Orbiter (~20km resolution).  The
PVO, on the other hand, could see both sides of the planet.
And then came Magellan...

Doug Sinclair
Spacecraft Engineer, as of last Wednesday :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:15:39 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Polyhedra

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:

>One cool thing to notice is that if you put a dot in the center of each
>face of an icosahedron, and connect adjoining dots with edges, the
>resulting figure is a dodecahedron.  The reverse is also true.  Another
>such pair is the octrahedron and the cube.  And, coolest of all, a
>tetrahedron forms such a "pair" with itself!
>
>Well, *I* think it's cool, anyway. :)

Johannes Kepler Lives!

That was his technique for attempting to figure out the orbital radii of the
planets. Eventually he had to give the whole idea and use a bunch of
ellipses, but he apparently didn't do too bad with the polygons...

Another philosophical note:

Tetrahedron (4 sides) = Fire
Cube (6 sides) = Earth
Octahedron (8 sides) = Air
Dodecahedron (12 sides) = ?
Icosahedron (20 sides) = Water

Plato spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the Dodecahedron stood
for...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:09:27 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
>
>>I agree it doesn't happen with hexes IF you only measure distances along
>>the three axes that hexes are correct on. Squares are correct on two
>>perpendicular axes. Any arbitrary distance will be wrongly measured by=
 both
>>systems and the big advantage to squares is that they're easier to fit=
 onto
>>normal deckplans
>[snip]
>
>Not true, hexes approximate distance well along any axis. You don't even
>need an axis. Don't take my word for it, try it; get a piece of hex paper
>and graph paper. Now draw a bunch of lines on both, even curves or scrawls.

Rather than that, do the math. For a square, it's simple. The length of the
diagonal of a square is sqrt(2) times the distance across. That means, for
something at a 45=F8 angle (the maximum deflection), things will be about=
 1.4
times as far away. That's why games with diagonal movement often multiply
the diagonal range by 1.5 - to get a good approximation.

In a hexagon, the same ratio is sqrt(3)/2, with the added complication that
when you draw a line from the center of a hex to one corner (a "diagonal" of
sorts) you move along the edge of the adjacent hex. The corner to corner
distance across the center of a hex is twice the length of a side, and
sqrt(3)/2 times the distance from edge to edge (fairly elementary trig -
just divide the hex into 6 equilateral triangles). In any case, if a
distance of 10 hexes across hex faces (normal movement for most games) is
defined as 10 spaces, then the corresponding distance on the diagonal (30=F8
to right or left) is ~8.66 spaces; a lot less deviation.

>>The advantage of squares is that EVRUBODY have them. They're everywhere so
>>you don't have to go to your local gameshop when you run out of paper.

>True, but I photocopy all my hex paper. All the hex paper I have seen has
>much too heavy lines anyway; you can barely see the map through those thick
>black hexes. Ideally, they should use a faint blue hairline. You can't get
>hex paper in different scales also; another reason for using a photocopier
>with enlargements. I admit the price and quality of graph paper is far
>superior to hex paper.

I have hex paper in a number of different scales - 1" and 5/8" are both
pretty common; other scales can be found for mapping. Actually, I designed a
relatively okay hexagon in powerpoint...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: 03 May 1997 15:47:26 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Flood of the Millennium

> I guess I'm one of those people, either that or I'm specificalley lacking
>in explosions.. But how would just venting it [gas/air mixture] to space or
turning off the
>light hurt?

The contacts in switches often spark when the switch is turned on or off.  If
you have a situation where the switch is surrounded by an explosive mixture
(such as propane/air) then you can have a nasty BOOM on your hands.

Mind you, I expect that switches for spaceships will be specified with this
in mind, just as contemporary hazmat installations use sealed switches. 
Unless, of course, someone has been scrimping by using Bob's Discount Annual
Maintenance Package, or the engineer made a mistake, or the supplier cheated,
or...  (Sealed switches are a _lot_ more expensive than ordinary ones.)

In this situation, I would make a secret roll against the quality of the
shipyard performing the last annual maintenance to see if they made a mistake
(either deliberately through cost-cutting or accidentally through
negligence), and another for the ship's engineer to see if he accidentally
missed the mistake when inspecting the work.  (I assume that the engineer,
who is travelling on the ship, is properly paranoid about things like this. 
A sloppy engineer character who tries to do too much has major negative DMs
on this task!

Being an engineer, I can come up with convincing, technically accurate
descriptions of hazardous situations on-the-fly.  If my players don't accept
them, they are good enough gamers to come up with their own alternate
descriptions (rather than just claiming that everything must be safe).

If the player makes a mistake that their character shouldn't (eg. an artist
playing an engineer) I have them roll against the character's
intelligence/education/skill and, if they succeed, warn them of the
(potential) mistake. A failure here means that the character was
distracted/careless/whatever.  (Which happens in emergencies: I've got some
funny-after-the-fact stories from my Emergency Response Team days.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 13:52:01 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

At 11:42 PM 5/2/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Of course, you can get explosives out of a stockyard, and what you can do
>> with fertilizer and fuel oil...well I guess we *all* know about that. 
>
>For smaller bombs, guess what thgose "instant cold" packs have in them?
>Yep. Ammonium nitrate. 

	Oh great. Now some poor, demented, unstable, impressionable player of role
playing games is going to go off and blow something up. I can just see the
headlines now ... "Internet encourages engineer to destroy car." We really
need somebody to come in and prevent us from passing these dangerous ideas
around. Where's Congress when you need them?

	Turning serious: Hmm ... I wonder what other "improvised" toys I could use
in my next Traveller adventure?  "Gee, Mr Guard, I've got a terrible
headache. Could I get a cold pack, and the lantern in my cell is running low?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 13:55:37 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

At 04:54 PM 5/2/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Would there be a difference in "natural" gravity and artificial
>> gravity that one could detect? Would a grav plate be too regular are
>> operate in waves/ pulses or some other means of detecting that one
>> was in an artificial environ- ment and not on a planet? This has
>> ramifications to an adventure I'm currently working on, so speak up
>> people!
>
>Unless artificial gravity is some force that affects individual
>particles but is otherwise totally unlike gravity (not likely) then
>it's very unlikely to be easily distinguished from "real" gravity.
>Heck, you can't tell the difference between *acceleration* and gravity!

	Depends. I measure the *direction* of the force at two different places.
If the direction is parallel, it's inertial and hence acceleration. If the
vectors are pointing at a common center, it's gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 13:42:36 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

At 07:52 AM 5/3/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On 03 May 1997 02:07:10 GMT, you wrote:
>
>> We had a gas leak at school last semester.  Most of my colleagues blithely
>> went back to their offices, turned on the lights so they could find their
>> handbags, and then turned off the lights (to save energy?) on the way out. 
>> One even finished her photocopying first!!!
>> 
>> I suspect the Traveller universe will be equally full of people who don't
>> understand technology, and believe that what they don't know can't hurt
them.
>
>I'm sorry but these individuals will have to try a LOT harder to make
>this year's Darwin Award nominee list.  My favourite is the country
>yokel that decided to use an unfired .22 LR cartridge as a fuse in his
>pappy's pick-up truck.  Yeow!

	Did he actually take himself out of the gene pool, or just partially
reduce his reproductive capacity?

	For those (especially overseas) who missed the point, the Darwin award is
supposed to be given to those individuals who improve the human race by
self-natural-selection. In the case of the gentleman above, he and a
hunting buddy were coming back one night when the headlights on their truck
failed--blown fuse. Joe Einstein cleverly realized that a .22 cartridge
would fit right into the fuse holder, and brass conducts electricity, so he
could get home. Joe Einstein also used a live round, which heated up and
eventually discharged into his ... personal area.

	But one of my favorites is the self-control-impaired person who decided he
was going to bash the window of his ex-girlfriend's car in with the butt of
a shotgun. If the butt is striking the window, where's the barrel pointing?
Yep, it was loaded. Blew his own face in.

	ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games? Players who
*really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 13:48:43 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Technical considerations: nuke missiles

At 04:46 AM 5/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>   Hi.
>
>> Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 22:22:32 -0400
>> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@jerry.pcisys.net>
>
>>         Well, then we need to get the Official Traveller Handwaving
>> Gymnastics Team on the job to explain how come 
>
>>         a) Nobody uses fusion warheads on missiles, despite their being
>> smaller and more powerful than fission, or
>>         b) Why nuclear dampers work on fusion warheads, or
>>         c) Why, despite all the technology advances (and despite how we can
>> think of several right now), nobody has been able to create a fusion
warhead
>> that doesn't require a fission trigger
>
>   I like option (c) above.  Quite frankly, I haven't been convinced
>   that any of the several alternatives to fission discussed on this
>   list are at all feasible.  Most that I've seen proposed come with the
>   explanation that Trav tech can certainly provide enough /energy/ for
>   a fusion /reaction/,  but that's a far cry from being able to
>   provide enough /power/ for a fusion /explosion/.  There's a crucial
>   difference between energy and power, between a reaction and an
>   explosion.  That difference has to do with timescale.  A pound of
>   coal releases more energy than a pound of TNT, but we all know that
>   a burning pound of coal is not as dangerous as a burning pound of
>   TNT, because TNT burns many orders of magnitude faster, releasing
>   many orders of magnitude more /power/.  It is this power output that
>   makes explosives dangerous.

	Except that I believe there are already technologies which come *close* to
providing fusion trigger capability without fission. And the need in a
warhead *isn't* power. It's providing the compression and/or heat
necessary. Again, some of the options:

	- Laser triggering. Already in development stages to detonate a *small*
pellet of hydrogen or isotopes to initiate a fusion reaction for power
plants or for the Daedalus drive proposed by the British Interplanetary
society.

	- Collapsing grav field. If you can make superdense armor, you should be
able to create a pulse of intensely high-G within the warhead to simulate
stellar cores.

	- Highly Improved chemical explosives.

	- Nuclear damper technology. If you can increase the strong force (as
somebody corrected me), you may be able to overcome more of the electrical
repulsion between protons. Especially if you combine this with one of the
other triggering mechanisms.

	And I'm not all that imaginative... I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable
and creative can come up with with other ideas.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 09:51:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

>Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:10:26 -0700
>From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>

>As I remember, there was a Dragon magazine MANY years back which had an
>article on a sport for Traveller called Gravball.  The exact rules of 

FASA published it as a boxed game.  I have it, but have never played it 
nor read the rules.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 09:59:05 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

>Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:13:39 -0800
>From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)

>>The Imperial Navy and Marines will be the "melting pot" for the Imperium,
>>with members drawn from all the 11,000 worlds.  *These* will be the

>This is pretty much the way I see it too -- the Imperial Army is still
>pretty planet-of-origin-bound, with different units having a lot of 'local
>flavor' to them, and the Navy, Marines, and IISS being more culturally
>homogenous and cosmopolita

I thought that the Imperial army formations had only cadres as permanent features, and 
called up the reserves to fill out the units in time of war.  Thus an Imperial 
army division would have a divisional headquarters unit, fully staffed; a regimental or 
battalion headquarters unit, fully staffed, for each regiment or battalion; company 
officers; a lot of senior NCOs; and a unit dedicated to training the reserves.  The 
reserves would of course meet for regular exercises.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 09:49:34 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: The Imperium does not claim worlds??

>From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
>Subject: The Imperium does not claim worlds??
>
>I've heard time and time again that the Imperium only claims the space =
>between worlds, not the worlds themselves. How can this be? Minor Nobles =
>on up are given Land Grants, how can the Imperium give away land grants =
>if it owns no lands, only space. I 've read that the Imperium in its =
>prime had over 11,000 worlds, this would not be true if it the Imperium =
>only claimed the space lanes. How could the imperium claim the right to =
>tax .... So on and so on ...
>
>I believe it to be much more complex then all that. I believe that while =
>member worlds are allowed to rule themselves (to a certain extent), they =
>are still under the control of the Imperium. And in being a member =
>world, still has to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by the =
>Imperium.=20

I think your second paragraph largely answers your first.  The Imperium is a social and 
political contract among the Imperial family, the nobility, and the member states.  The 
terms are that the member states can do almost whatever they want internally, except try 
to overturn the contract.  The nobility -- which has existed since long before the 
Imperium -- keeps its traditional powers and properties, advises the Emperor on policy 
matters, and, most important, is the only party with the right to terminate the 
contract.  The Imperial family administers the Imperium to the benefit of the nobility 
and the member states, and receives undreamt wealth and power.  

The tone of your last paragraph suggests that you believe that member states are more 
limited in their self-rule than I believe them to be -- at least by the Classic 
Traveller era.  The Imperium doesn't set forth extensive and detailed rules and 
regulations that apply directly to the rule of member states.  It doesn't need to.  

The situation appears different in Milieu: Zero (which I don't have).  In its early 
stages, the Imperium appears to have been really imperial, dictating local policy much 
more than later.  At some point it reached a critical mass, at which point it could not 
effectively govern the member states, and it no longer needed to do so, because it had 
become largely self-sustaining.  That appears to have been when it covered most of the 
space of the old Ziru Sirka.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 22:33:29 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

David J. Golden wrote:

>         ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games? Players who
> *really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?

Not Traveller (Role Master), but a good one anyways: The group had been
creeping around in a labyrinth for a couple of days taking extraordinary
care not being discovered since somewhere in the labyrinth there was a
powerful sorcerer. Suddenly they came upon a large door, and one of the
players strolled up to it saying "Perhaps it's a hemrit!" (delibirate
spelling error since he used the wrong word) and knocked on the door.
Naturally the big bad guy was just beyond that door. They survived, but
not by much.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:36:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: My UPP write-up

If you're not tired of all of these (I'm not; I've been enjoying them while catching up 
on back digests this afternoon), I'll take a stab at my own:

Lawyer
67ACEA age 38; 3 terms (1 as nurseryman, 2 as lawyer)

Languages-5
Legal-4
Computer-1
Admin-2
Liaison-2
Persuasion-1
Skiing (telemark & cross-country)-2 (could go back to 3 or 4 with practice)
Wheeled vehicle-2
Foil-1 (could go back to 3 with practice)
Handgun-0
Instruction-1
Research (bibliographic)-2
Interview-1
Interrogation-1
Horticulture-1 (ex-nurseryman, ages 21-24; call it 1 term)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 97 17:11:10 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Hexagons, dodecahedra, icosahedra, hurrah!

On 1997-05-02 16:32 thus spake Craig Berry:

>One cool thing to notice is that if you put a dot in the center of each
>face of an icosahedron, and connect adjoining dots with edges, the
>resulting figure is a dodecahedron.  The reverse is also true.  Another
>such pair is the octrahedron and the cube.  And, coolest of all, a
>tetrahedron forms such a "pair" with itself!
>
>Well, *I* think it's cool, anyway. :)

I think it's pretty cool too. The Platonic solids are funny that way. For 
more really interesting geometric discussion of things like that, I 
recommend _A Fuller explanation : the synergetic geometry of R. 
Buckminster Fuller_ by Amy C. Edmondson.

Besides properties of regular solids, how they can be divided into little 
bits that can be put together to form a different regular solid, the 
superiority of tensile strength over compressive is descussed, the basis 
of Bucky's invention of the geodesic dome.

It really opens your eyes... the state of civil engineering is in the 
dark ages. I think future societies will see our "boxy" houses as quite 
quaint and wasteful.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:31:33 +1200 (NZST)
From: Richard Fields <rfields@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Who we are

As a brief note of introduction, I've been lurking the TML board for a few
 months. I'm a classis backroom person who usually makes small parts to 
fit into someone elces big picture. In traveller terms this self 
perception has a few footnotes, that may help explain myself better.

Richard Fields, Male Human
Age 36
UPP AA8988
Psi Potential A
Career:
2 Terms COACC - Admin support, 2 Promotions, No Commission.
3 Terms Entertainer - Admin and Artist support to Merchants, No 
Promotion/Commission. 
Skills:
Liasion 1, Admin 2, Research 1, Ground Vehicle 1, Comp 2, Art 2*, Artisan 
1, Write -1*, Dance 2, Athletics 1*(-1 old injuries, -2 flat feet), Rifle 
1, Mech 1@TL6, Fencing 2, Short Blade 2, Long Blade 1, Spear 1, History 1,
Brawl 2, Preformance 1, Carouse 1, Theology/Cultural Awareness 1*.
Signifficant possessions:
Own Hovel (TL7)
1.6m shelf space of significant literature (CT-T4, not the full set)
Culture Notes:
Write -1/Art 2 : Those without franchise to undertake some 
activities eg appearing to be part of the intelligencia (or at least more 
than just functionally literate) are discouraged by existing franchisees.
Athletics 1 : Local customs expect that any prospective coach or trainer 
be skilled in exercise science this is a not quite a Medical skill but has 
signifficant crossovers, especially as a First Aid defult. 
Tall Poppies Syndrome: Parts of the culture is obsessed with egalaterian 
ideals, and have gone to lengths to drag some disadvantaged people up to 
the norm. This process has the disadvantage of dragging most guifted 
people down to the norm, it styfles achivement or excelence.
Conversly anyone who breaks this social barrier and achives notariety and 
excelence is also trapped into continuing to be expected to preform at 
the topmost level.
Theology/Cultural Awareness: The usually ignored skill of knowing that 
what "I" do may be different to what "You" do, sometimes for good reasons.
Also being able to partake in the rituals of ones own society or adapt to 
someone elces ritual or culture.

The WiseFool
When I ask questions I must challenge my perception of what I heard,
not your perception of what you said.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:28:32 -0700
From: Mark Ayers <Mark@BBIC.com>
Subject: Who We Are

Mark
UPP: 222222
4 term rogue
skills: fast talk - 4
Okay, had to react to all the inflated stuff I've seen.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:17:02 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FSY's May THUDDD entry.

	No outsized spinal mounts this month :).  In fact, this is pretty
restrained for an FSY ship:

*******************************

FSY Recollet-class Exploratory Trader (SSDS Beta .pdf)

Tons: 500 Std (Wedge SL)  Volume: 7,000 m^3              Cost: 226 MCr
Crew: 11 (8)              High/Mid Pass: 8 (11)          Low: 10
Cargo: 102 Std            Controls: TL12 hiauto (Bridge) TL: 12

08 Size                               03 Jump Drive (50 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                      02 Maneuver (T-plate, 250 Mw)
02x 251 Mj laser (04) 1/03-02-01-00   1.5 Power Plant (375 Mw)
                                      158 Fuel (Scoop 200, Refine 50)
                                      01 Sandcasters (TL-12, 30 Cans)
01x Min. Hang. (20 td Launch)         01 Nuclear Damper (30,000 km)
                                      A4 P4 J0 Sensors (0 Stealth/Cloak)
                                      20 Armor, 22 Structure

Crew Detail: 01 Command, 01 Pilot, 01 Astrogator, 01 Sensors, 5 (3)
Gunners, 01 Engineer, 01 (0) Steward.


	Famille Spofulam Yards is pleased to announce its entry for this
month's THUDDD competition.  FSY's philosophy for this ship class is that
medium is better; several medium-size ships can cover more territory,
visiting more systems, than a single large vessel.  Thus, a megacorporation
equipped with a  fleet of Recollets, rather than a few large vessels, will
be able to better explore the new markets on the fringes of the Imperium or
beyond.  As well, smaller entrepreneurs will be able to afford an extremely
capable frontier trader.  However, too small a vessel will have severe
shortcomings in cargo capacity and defensive punch, not to mention
small-craft and repair facilities.  Thus, we here at FSY feel that a
medium-sized vessel, capable of extended duration, with self-repair and
small-craft facilities, good defenses, and fair cargo capacity, is the best
approach to commercial exploration beyond the Imperial pale.  Hence, the
Recollet-class Exploratory Trader.


	The Recollet is built into a rock solid 500-ton streamlined
wedge-configuration hull, stressed to 10 G's for atmospheric operations,
and heavily armoured.  The Recollet is equipped with fuel scoops capable of
ingesting its full fuel load in slightly over 45 minutes, and refining it
in just over three hours.  It is also equipped with a 40-ton hangar capable
of accomodating a standard 20-ton launch (not included in MSRP) or serving
as supplementary cargo or storage space.  Other facilities designed to
extend the Recollet's duration in the field include an electronics shop and
a machine shop, and 2 years fuel storage for its 375 Mw Zhunastu Fusion
Systems power plant.  Its hold is capable of accomodating 102 tons of
cargo, accessed via four large cargo hatches.

	The Recollet is capable of accelerations of up to 2Gs, driven by a
Famille Spofulam Gravitics Thruster Plate unit, and boasts the longest
range (3 parsecs) jump drive currently available.

	As it is designed to venture far beyond the protective umbrella of
the Imperial Navy, the Recollet packs two 251 megajoule Ling Standard heavy
lasers linked by MFD, as well as one nuclear damper and a sandcaster.  The
Recollet's weapons suite therefore provides significant firepower, and is
capable of dealing with either laser or missile-equipped (typical of
lower-TL cultures) opponents.

	As typical for FSY's civilian craft, accomodations are luxurious;
command, sensor, flight deck, senior gunner, and engineering crew sleep in
six large staterooms, while the gunners and steward each have a single
small stateroom to themselves.  Eight small staterooms are provided for
middle passengers.  Given that the Recollet will often be operated with a
lower crew complement of three gunners (with the lasers being fired by the
MFD gunner) and no steward, up to 11 middle passengers may be carried.
Crew quarters may be shifted into smaller staterooms to accomodate High
passengers if necessary.  A sickbay is provided, as are 10 low berths.

	The result is a highly capable vessel with a surprisingly low price
tag of only 226 Mcr (launch not included) which we here at FSY feel will
become extremely popular among those venturing beyond the frontiers of the
Imperium to seek fortune, adventure, and to increase the glory of the
Imperium.

*******************************
Designer's comments (in no particular order):

* I wanted to keep the vessel fairly small, for role-playing reasons; I
think that the fewer NPC crew, the better.

* In designing the weapons suite, I assumed that lower-TL opponents would
likely to be relying heavily on nuke missiles for long-range offence; hence
the damper.  IMHO sandcasters also ought to be effective against missiles
too.  And the lasers could also be used as anti-missile defences.

* The 10 low berths were included a) for freezing shot-up crewmembers and
b) in case of misjump.  Low passengers might also be safer in uncivilized
parts of the universe, too.

* Crew and passenger numbers in the USD are for full complement, with
skeleton crew numbers in (parentheses).

* An option which might be popular would be to remove the hangar in favour
of cargo space, which would add 20 tons of cargo and cut 0.162 Mcr from the
ticket price.  The shops could likewise be removed, adding a further 16
tons of cargo and lowering the ticket price a further 0.27 Mcr.  However, I
think that for a vessel with a partly exploratory vocation, they're more
useful than the extra cargo capacity.

* Sensors crew numbers came out to 1.4, which I rounded down.  In general,
I've assumed a fairly cross-trained crew.

* I think that I've nailed the design specs this time.  It's under 3000
tons, exceeds the M & J drive specs, and is capable of wilderness
refuelling.  It's capable of double the 1-year field duration, landing crew
either by itself or via small craft, and (IMHO) is capable of dealing with
equal or lower-TL opponents.  And it still carries a fair amount of cargo.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 15:25:29 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Future Disasters

At 19:20 2/05/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>One from one of Julia Ecklar's stories (Tide of Stars, Analog, Jan 95).
>Planet with no moon, only slight solar tides, and a climate such that
>the temp never drops to 4C. So the oceans never "turn over". So the
>deeps get depleted in oxygen and have an anaerobic ecology. At some
>point this builds up until it reaches the surface and the whole planet
>gets gassed by the Hydrogen Sulphide released... This really happens in
>some tropical lakes on Earth. It can happen in oceans on a warm enough
>planet under the right conditions. 

IIRC the Black Sea also has a very high Hydrogen Sulphide concentration,
because the surface water ihas a very low saline level and just sits on the
saltier deep layers, with very little mixing. I wonder if a climatic chamge
could trigger a release... (global warming say) There's a lot of water in
the Black Sea.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 18:52:40 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Something for gearheads

Having just got hold of a copy of G3G, I've tried my hand at designing
some of those pointie shootie things. Here's an possible replacement
for the cR898.

*******************************************************

Phoenix Small Arms LIC announce the availablity of the L-2 rifle.

PSA L-2 rifle
The L-2 is an advanced TL12 military rifle. The L-2 fires the standard
Imperial 7mm DS projectile (as used in the standard Imperial 7mm caseless
round) using a metered binary propellant system. The L-2 has a total loaded
weight of 3.8kg (including a 0.2kg disposable propellant cartridge and a
0.5kg 100 round detachable magazine) with an overall length of 46cm (33.9cm
barrel). The L-2 is capable of firing either 3 round burst, single shot or
full automatic (cyclic rate 1000 rpm). The L-2 has three power settings
(high, medium and low) and is a low recoil weapon suitable for zero-G
environments at the low power setting. A disposable propellant cartridge can 
provide 100 full power, 200 medium power or 800 low power charges. The L-2
has a penetration of 5 and range of medium at high power, a penetration of 4
and a range of medium at medium power and a penetration of 3 and range of
short at low power. The L-2 is fully gyrostabilised and is fitted with standard
attachment points for the use of enhanced sighting devices and under barrel
attachments. The L-2 costs Cr 2150 (including one loaded magazine and one
propellant cartridge); a fully charged propellant cartridge costs Cr 70 and
100 7mm DS projectiles cost Cr 105; additional unloaded magazines cost of
Cr 145.

***********************************************************

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1284
***********************************

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subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 4 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1285



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

NDs, canon, technical considerations
Technical considerations: Nuclear dampers
Re: Re; Ship Sizes
Re: UPP codes
[TML]Spectacular Failure...
Darwin Awards
Galatic
Re: The FORLORN
[Off topic] Games shops in New York, USA
Safety vs. Stupidity (was Re: Flood of the Millennium)
Re: Asteroids (mostly)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1275
Re: Flood of the Millennium
Re: Re; Ship Sizes
Re: Re: "Deep Space" detection
Re: Darwin Awards
Question about May THUDDD
Re: Darwin Awards
Re: Darwin awards
Re: Starship Combat
Re: Metator Update
Re: Re; Ship Sizes
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Future Disasters
conspiracy theories (was "Oops, look out....")
1996 Darwin Award Nominees

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:17:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: NDs, canon, technical considerations

 While browsing through the 'Regency Combat Vehicle Guide', I came accross
this explination of nuclear damper technology which should quell questions
 The below is copyright whoever owns it, I'm not suere atm.
- -=-
 Nuclear dampers disable nuclear warheads by preventing their warheads
from undergoing nuclear reactions. In the case of fission warheads, they
do this by transforming their fissile material into nonfissile elements,
and in the case of thermonuclear warheads, they do this by preventing the
hydrogen nuclei from fusing in thermonuclear reactions. On the other hand,
manipulating the electroweak force, which controls the decay of subatomic
particles, allows the nuclear damper to cause uranium or plutonium to
rapidly decay into nonfissile isotopes, preventing the nuclear warhead
from functioning.(Note, however, that improperly identifying a fission
warhead as a fusion warhead and firing a nuclear damper at it to weaken
the strong force will actualley cause the detonation of a fission warhead,
rather then prevent it.) For further discussion of nuclear damper
technology, see _Fire, Fusion & Steel_ pages 56-57.
- -=-

 Seems like this could also be focused on 'normal' matter to cause it to
decay into a pile of sludge.. Disintigrator beams, anyone? Do a number on
a grav tank's electronics, or for long-range targeting of starships since
there is no defense against these.

 bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 04:13:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Technical considerations: Nuclear dampers

   Hi.

> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:20:10 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Any chance that the damper could change the *range* of the nuclear force?
 
   If it could alter the pion's mass, then sure.  Nuclear forces are
   mediated by nucleons exchanging pions.  The heavier the pions, the
   shorter the range.  A pion is made up of a quark-antiquark pair. 
   Some possible mechanisms for increasing its mass include:

   1)  Decreasing the strength of the QCD (quantum chromo-dynamics)
   coupling constant.  This would decrease the binding energy of the
   pion, increasing its mass.

   2) Alternatively, increasing the strength of the QCD coupling
   constant might work, if it increased confinement and caused the
   quark-antiquark pair to increase its zero-level energy.  Since QCD
   problems are currently incalculable, I don't know how to discriminate
   between this option and option (1) above.

   3) Increase the quark mass.

   Note that control of pion mass could have other interesting spin-off
   applications.  Like, say, controling pion lifetimes 8^).

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:28:32 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: Re: Re; Ship Sizes

On 28th April you said:
>>>>
>Personally, I do better when I can visualize internal spaces in relation to
>buildings.  I can walk around, inside and outside, similar sized buildings
>and get a feel for what the ship would be like.  I can stand on the
>sidewalk and visualize that 2 story apartment building coming in for a
>landing...*that* impresses me, and that's a small ship!  Yes, "Fat Albert"
>impresses me too. ;->
>
>Eris

Buy Marathon Infinity and draw the ships with the editor including the
cool
SF textures. Then you can walk around in those ships and see how they
feel.
Really interesting. Someone made an excellent map of a Subsidized
merchant
that felt really cool moving around.
<<<<

What's Marathon Infinity when it's at home?

Andy

================================================================
smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
		andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
		o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 08:54:50 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: UPP codes

Ok, guess its my turn.....

John Watts
5788A4  Human Male  Age:26 
1 term College, 1 term Electrical Equipment Salesman

Acting-1, Admin-1, Broker-1, Carousing-3, Computer-2, Electronics-2, 
Electrician-1, Electrical Engineering-0, Fast Talk-2, Gambling-2, Ground 
Craft-2, Pistol-0, History-3, Instruction-2, Language-1, Law-0, 
Research-2, Tactics-1, Trader-1, Archaeology-0, Geology-0, Meteorology-0

1 TL8 Computer, 1 TL8 Ground Car, 1 BA in History, other sundry 
possessions
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 23:53:22 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: [TML]Spectacular Failure...

A few weeks ago I noted that our group was using a modified Spectacular
Failure roll where to, basically, fumble, one needs to roll as many or more
D6s as their current skill level.  E.g., if you have a given skill level 3,
when you cast dice to perform a task, you need to cast 3 or more sixes to
have spectacularly failed.  If your skill level is 1, you'll spectacularly
fail with one or more sixes.  

We discovered a bit of a problem with this.  It does a good job of making
spectacular failure a bit less likely as one's skill increases and it works
with low-mid level skills, but when a character has a high skill level
(say, 4 or more) it becomes impossible to spectactularly fail at simpler (3
dice or less) tasks.  Everybody (so I think) should have a chance to fail.  

Plodding along...

PS - We used KBv2.0 skills again tonight and they worked fine!

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:53:25 +1000
From: Scott & Isabell <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: Darwin Awards

My vote would have to go to the petrol tanker driver in Australia who
checked to see what load he had remaining by leaning in the inspection
hatch with a lighter.
If living disqualifies you though he has to be scratched.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Galatic

 I was wondering if anyone out there could point me to the excellent piece
of software by (I forget who) at (I lost it when I had to reformat c:)
webpage called "Galatic". It's a map utility
 Thanks in advance

bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The FORLORN

On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:

> Okay, I only skimmed this, and it was good.  Still... the Lamarckian
> aspects of the Forlorn's adaptation to space did leap out at me.  At the
> very least they must have had an incredible birth rate and very high infant
> mortality to get significant evolution in a relatively short period of
> time, particularly since humans are not well known for mating based on
> obvious survival characteristics.  
 Incredible infant mortailty would make a nice background touch, sorta of
a social complex about the 'unborn ones', or those who 'never got a
chance'.

bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 15:25:49 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: [Off topic] Games shops in New York, USA

I'm visiting New York (Manhattan, specifically) for a few days at the end
of the month, and plan to do some major shopping whilst I'm there (mostly
books, which are significantly cheaper in the States than the UK).  Can
anyone recommend any good gaming shops?

Has anyone written a review of Emperor's Arsenal?  If so, could you point
me to a web page or TML digest #; if not, does anyone have any opinions
about it?


Autobiographies:
I'm 29, male, married, house, car (Mazda 323F - the sexy shaped one that
they don't sell in the US), no kids, systems integrator (presently working
on multi-Gb database to detect benefit fraud), gamer for 16 years, physics
degree (vague Traveller link) from Imperial College London, have had 1 TNE
adventure published in RPI (a British magazine which became RIP :-() [-
actually, I think it was the first TNE adventure ever published in a pro
magazine], have had several ship designs see print in Starships and The
Long Way Home [although I hasten to add that I had nothing to do with the
wonderful deck plans and descriptions in TLWH - all Andy's work AFAIK],
used to do Aikido [and loved the BD vs MA debate, btw :-)], enjoy reading,
films, sleeping.  Er, that's enough for now.  Oh, yeah, I rarely get to
play or run Traveller, but I just love designing ships, vehicles and guns -
I must find Jo Grant's spreadsheet and enter into the THUDD competitions
some time.


Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:22:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Safety vs. Stupidity (was Re: Flood of the Millennium)

In mail you write:

> I'm sorry but these individuals will have to try a LOT harder to make
> this year's Darwin Award nominee list.  My favourite is the country
> yokel that decided to use an unfired .22 LR cartridge as a fuse in his
> pappy's pick-up truck.  Yeow!

Where can one view the list of Darwin Award nominees?

This reminds me of an old idea. What sort of safety signs (especially
the cartoonish type) will be around? Here's my candidate (swiped from a
friend's sig file):

	Nature abhors an atmosphere!
	     Check your suit!
	  Check your buddy's suit!


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:08:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroids (mostly)

In mail you write:

>    Depends. I measure the *direction* of the force at two different places.
> If the direction is parallel, it's inertial and hence acceleration. If the
> vectors are pointing at a common center, it's gravity.

That's what you do to determine if a floor is "flat" ot "really flat". 

But it is possible to get a *gravity* field that is "flat" (ie parallel
field lines). Just create a very dense flat plate. As long as you
aren't near the edges, the lines are parallel. And yes, that means that
the field strength doesn't drop as you move away from the plate. Not
until you get far enough away that the edge effects get noticeable.

Use a controlled implosion to create some hyperdense matter and seal it
into a few inches of diamond. Tile enough of these plates and you'll
get a gravity field that acts like acceleration. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:43:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1275

In mail you write:

>>Shadow wrote :
>  
>> Metal asteroids get smelted in any of the many ways that writers have
>> come up with over the years. The iron is useful for building, most
>> belter ships won't *bother* with the expensive superdense, not when
>> iron and nickel are so cheap. After extracting the nickel and iron, you
>> refine the remainder down for most of the non-siderophilic metals.
>> Things like uranium won't be there as it is too fond of silicates.
>> 
>> Stony asteroids get rendered down for silicon and oxygen. Some of the
>> oxygen goes for life support. Some silicon goes for electronics. But
>> most go together as silica (SiO2). Glass is *the* most common building
>> material in any belt, and pretty damned common on worlds in systems
>> with an active belter subculture.
>
> Any idea how much a zero-G glass smelter would cost and weigh ?

Nope. But if they use the sort of "fusion smelter" I think should ber
common, it'd basically bre a big fusion plane with something resembling
the guts of several meson guns attached (the reactor turns the rock
into plasma, the electromagnetic field modules sort the atoms by mass
and charge). 

>> Aluminum sheets seperated by a layer of foamed glass is a favored
>> material for walls as it is light, strong, and insulates both temp and
>> sound. Again, materials from stoney asteroids.
>> 
>> All the siderophilic elements will get extracted from stony asteroids.
>> Including things like Uranium.
>
> How valuable would uranium be in the Imperium ? Given nukes are
> maximally illegal, and that fission power would only be used by a
> small percentage of worlds, and if you need hard currency to buy the
> uranium, you might as well just buy a TL9 fusion plant.

Uranium has one little known use. Most bright yellow glazes require
uranium. You can also get a nice green, and possibly an orange. 

>> Carbonaceous Chondritic bodies (chondrites) Are crazy compounds of
>> carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc. These are the *real* bonanzas
>> in most belts. Those are life support chemicals. Also needed for things
>> like plastics. You aren't likely to find these in belts that are
>> *really* close to their stars, but they'll be in all the others.
>
> At a guess, you'd need Chemistry to analyze these to any point beyond
> "It's a chrondite rock", right ? My guess is that this is where the gem
> compounds would be, which would be a major Belter target.

Think of a Chondrite as a cross between a lump of charcoal and a lump
of tar...

You get in visual range of a "rock" and zap it with a laser. If the
surface isn't uniform, zap each kind of area. A spectrograph can read
the composition of the vaporized material.

> My guess is that you would actually put your base on a decent-size ice 
> asteroid.

If they are available, and if they are close enough to the mainworld or
worlds.

> Although the metal asteroids are probably valuable enough to be 
> worthwhile grabbing when a payment on your reactor is due.

It's sort of like "mining" sand and gravel. There's always a demand,
but you won't get rich.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:32:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millennium

In mail you write:

> David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games? 
>> Players who *really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?
>
> Not Traveller (Role Master), but a good one anyways: The group had been
> creeping around in a labyrinth for a couple of days taking extraordinary
> care not being discovered since somewhere in the labyrinth there was a
> powerful sorcerer. Suddenly they came upon a large door, and one of the
> players strolled up to it saying "Perhaps it's a hemrit!" (delibirate
> spelling error since he used the wrong word) and knocked on the door.
> Naturally the big bad guy was just beyond that door. They survived, but
> not by much.

D&D. *Large* party. Whhile the front ranks were bashing on something,
the rear ranks got attacked by an ochre jelly. A magic user at that end
of the party franticly yells "what kills these?" And someone starts to
reply "Fire, or..." Mage goes "Right. I throw a fireball at it!" This
was in a 10 foot wide corridor. The fireball engulfed the whole party.
Worse, not only did the mage live thru it, the leader (actually the DM)
wouldn't let us off the idiot....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:45:56 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Re; Ship Sizes

>What's Marathon Infinity when it's at home?
>
>Andy

It's a cool Macintosh and PC game a la Doom but with a real story and
better graphics. It comes with two editors that lets you create maps,
textures, enemies et c. There's already a beautiful Subsidized merchant
that you can run around in (until the baddies shoot you down that is).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:50:09 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Re: "Deep Space" detection

>With the active source of the sun, an _immensely_ powerful signal generator
>:-)
>
>Seriously, I've always assumed that passive sensors detect mainly radiated
>signals rather than reflected signals.  Haven't done any calculations, just a
>gut feeling.  Is this an incorrect assumption?

They are supposed to detect anything from microwaves to hard UV or even
x-rays and they see whatevers coming, be it reflected or radiated. I
separated IR from light/UV sensors in mys design system a while but figured
it wasn't worth the hassle.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 11:53:11 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Darwin Awards

Scott & Isabell wrote:
> 
> My vote would have to go to the petrol tanker driver in Australia who
> checked to see what load he had remaining by leaning in the inspection
> hatch with a lighter.
> If living disqualifies you though he has to be scratched.
> 
> Scott

That is stupid.  Consider, the less petrol that's left, the more room
for fumes.  You just can't win doing that...

- --/tauman

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Question about May THUDDD

  I've been reading QSDS 1.5 in preparation for my Exploratory Trader
entry, and came across some interesting language in the section on
weaponry.  The text is as follows:

"Most worlds allow non-military shipowners to install
military-specification turret and barbette weapons systems.  Missile
batteries, bay and spinal weapons are usually only available to authorized
purchasers."

  Now, not that I'm thinking of a ship with a big honking weapon (I was
going to say something about leaving that to Famillee Spofulam, but this
time their design looks very restrained - nice work, no doubt by the new
team of designers who replaced the ones who were sacked after the last
competition), but I was wondering if the purchasers of the Exploratory
Trader were going to be "authorized" in the sense of the above quotation.
If not, the only major impact I see is that it means that MFDs for
missiles are not allowed (along with bay and spinal mounts).

  This also brings up the question of if there are other technologies that
are forbidden to civilian owners, like military grade sensors and the
like.  I'd be interested to hear other thoughts on the matter.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:26:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Darwin Awards

 
> > My vote would have to go to the petrol tanker driver in Australia who
> > checked to see what load he had remaining by leaning in the inspection
> > hatch with a lighter.
> > If living disqualifies you though he has to be scratched.

Actually, death shouldn't be required, just a reduction in your
reproductive ability/opportunity.

So if he was disfigured and as a result produced no/fewer children
as a result, it should count.  People who get killed after they've
had all the kids they're going to should be disqualified, though :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:02:54 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Darwin awards

>>         ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games?
>>Players who
>> *really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?

I HAD one player with a fire going on in the engineering room. Well he
thought speed was important (it was during space combat) and decided that
flooding the room with LHyd by shooting a hole in a tank wall would snuff
the fire. As the LHyd was so cold he figured it wouldn't ignite from the
fire. He was right about that - it ignited from the plasmabolt(!) he used
to crack the tank and was then simultaneously flashfreezed, cocussion
crushed and burned alive.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:10:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Combat

>I think you mean *icosahedron* (20 sides). Dodecahedron is only 12
>sides, and the sides are pentagons.

Oops!


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:22:35 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Metator Update

>3) Map printing has been disabled until I figure out how to get icons
>printing.  Any help appreciated.
>

Do you mean how to make PlotIcon calls to be added in picHandles?
Why not have all your "icons" as either several gWorlds and draw them with
CopyBits. CopyBits gets recorded into picHandles but PlotIcon, CopyMask etc
doesn't. Tell me some more about your problems and I can perhaps help you
out.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:23:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re; Ship Sizes

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Andy Long wrote:
> 
> What's Marathon Infinity when it's at home?

Marathon Infinity is a a way cool Mac (only!) game that takes up far too
much of people's time...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 97 18:47 BST-1
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

The offer in TML Digest 1267 of a copy of my gravball rules 
triggered a gratifyingly large response. I think I've now replied 
to everyone, so if you requested a set and haven't received it 
yet, drop me another e-mail.

Thanks
Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:56:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Future Disasters

>From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)

>Spontaneous natural nuclear reactions. A river is eroding its way through
>an old mountain range. It's sweeping up uranium particles and slowly
>depositing them onto the river's delta where it empties into the sea. What
>a great spot for a resort community - nice beaches, fishing, waterskiing,

I think we have a winner.  Can you knock out a quick screenplay, and we'll run it by 
Marc for his approval before we pitch it to Hollywood as the Traveller movie?  I see it 
as sort of a Jaws-in-the-Far-Future, with the main character a scientist who's figured 
out the danger but no one believes him (I guess that's An Enemy of the People, too).  
Maybe we could get that guy who was in Jurassic Park and Twister.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:46:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: conspiracy theories (was "Oops, look out....")

>From: scharlto@ifsna.com
>Subject: Oops, look out for that planet...

[discussion of Tunguska event deleted]

>What other past events can we blame on Vilani engineering incompetence?
>Ezekiel's Wheel (Ezekiel got to watch a Lab Ship reenter the atmosphere and
>flame out)?  Atlantis (the dreaded .1c chunk of spacecraft flotsam)?  The
>Titanic (wilderness sea refueling gone horribly wrong)?

I predict that we'll soon be hearing from Mr. Berry's about how many of these incidents 
are related to the Hivers as minions of great Cthulhu.  

- --Glenn

"Ye-, ye-, yes, there was a, a, a, noxious stench coming from the grassy knoll below 
Dealey Plaza, and I, I, I, saw an indescribably vile green ichor oozing down the, the, 
the, knoll into the, the gutter...."

- -Original testimony of Phillip Carter (distant relative of Randolph Carter) to the 
Warren Commission.  

"I didn't see, hear, nor -- certainly I'd remember -- smell anything unusual in the area 
of the knoll, nor near the fence.  Some people were moving there, I think, but I 
couldn't see clearly."

- -Testimony of Phillip Carter as published in the Warren Commission Report.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 18:48:11 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: 1996 Darwin Award Nominees

Darwin Awards
=============

These are based upon the ability of someone to contribute more to
humanity dead than alive !

You may recall last year's Darwin Award winner:  The man who found out
moments before making a 300 MPH dent in an Arizona cliff that the JATO
(jet assist take off) unit he'd strapped to his car could not be
turned off once it was turned on.

1994's winner was the fellow who was killed by a Coke machine which
toppled on top of him as he was attempting to tip a free soda out of
it.

The 1996 nominees are:


NOMINEE #1 [San Jose Mercury News]

An unidentified man, using a shotgun like a club to break a former
girlfriend's windshield, accidentally shot himself to death when the
gun discharged, blowing a hole in his gut.


NOMINEE #2 [Kalamazoo Gazette, 4-1-95]

James Burns, 34, of Alamo, Mich., was killed in March as he was trying
to repair what police described as a "farm-type truck." Burns got a
friend to drive the truck on a highway while Burns hung underneath so
that he could ascertain the source of a troubling noise. Burns'
clothes caught on something, however, and the other man found Burns
"wrapped in the drive shaft."


NOMINEE #3 [Reuters, Mississauga, Ontario]

Man slips, falls 23 stories to his death.  A man cleaning a bird
feeder on his balcony of his condominium apartment in this Toronto
suburb slipped and fell 23 stories to his death, police said Monday.
Stefan Macko, 55, was standing on a wheeled chair Sunday when the
accident occurred, said Inspector D'Arcy Honer of the Peel regional
police. "It appears the chair moved and he went over the balcony,"
Honer said." It's one of those freak accidents. No foul play is
suspected."


NOMINEE #4 [Hickory Daily Record 12/21/92]

Ken Charles Barger, 47, accidentally shot himself to death in December
in Newton, N.C., when, awakening to the sound of a ringing telephone
beside his bed, he reached for the phone but grabbed instead a Smith &
Wesson .38 Special, which discharged when he drew it to his ear.


NOMINEE #5 [UPI, Toronto]

Police said a lawyer demonstrating the safety of windows in a downtown
Toronto skyscraper crashed through a pane with his shoulder and
plunged 24 floors to his death. A police spokesman said Garry Hoy, 39,
fell into the courtyard of the Toronto Dominion Bank Tower early
Friday evening as he was explaining the strength of the building's
windows to visiting law students. Hoy previously had conducted
demonstrations of window strength according to police reports. Peter
Lauwers, managing partner of the firm Holden Day Wilson, told the
Toronto Sun newspaper that Hoy was"one of the best and brightest"
members of the 200-man association.


NOMINEE #6 [AP, Cairo, Egypt, 31 Aug 1995 CAIRO, Egypt (AP)]

Six people drowned Monday while trying to rescue a chicken that had
fallen into a well in southern Egypt.  An 18-year-old farmer was the
first to descend into the 60-foot well.  He drowned, apparently after
an undercurrent in the water pulled him down, police said.  His sister
and two brothers, none of whom could swim well, went in one by one to
help him, but also drowned. Two elderly farmers then came to help, but
they apparently were pulled by the same undercurrent.The bodies of the
six were later pulled out of the well in the village of Nazlat Imara,
240 miles south of Cairo.  The chicken was also pulled out.  It
survived.


NOMINEE #7 [Bloomburg News Service, 25 March]

A terrible diet and room with no ventilation are being blamed for the
death of a man who was killed by his own gas. There was no mark on his
body but autopsy showed large amounts of methane gas in his system.
His diet had consisted primarily of beans and cabbage (and a couple of
other things).  It was just the right combination of foods.  It
appears that the man died in his sleep from breathing from the
poisonous cloud that was hanging over his bed.  Had he been outside or
had his windows been opened, it wouldn't have been fatal. But the man
was shut up in his near airtight bedroom. He was "... a big man with a
huge capacity for creating [this deadly gas]." Three of the rescuers
got sick and one was hospitalized.


NOMINEE #8 [Bloomburg News Service]

SELECTION COMMITTEE "MERIT" CANDIDATE

(because no one died)

"In retrospect, lighting the match was my big mistake.  But I was only
trying to retrieve the gerbil," Eric Tomaszewski told bemused doctors
in the Severe Burns Unit of Salt Lake City Hospital.  Eric, and his
homosexual partner, Andrew "Kiki" Fernum, had been admitted for
emergency treatment after a felching session had gone seriously wrong.
"I pushed a cardboard tube up his rectum and slipped Raggot, our
gerbil, in," he explained. "As usual, Kiki shouted out "Armageddon",
my cue that he had enough. I tried to retrieve Raggot but he wouldn't
come out again, so I peered in to the tube and struck a match,
thinking the light might attract him."

At a hushed press conference, a hospital spokesman described what
happened next. "The match ignited a pocket of intestinal gas and a
flame shot up the tube, igniting Mr. Tomaszewski's hair and severely
burning his face. It also set fire to the gerbil's fur and whiskers,
which in turn ignited a larger pocket of gas further up the
intestines, propelling the rodent out like a cannonball."


NOMINEE #9 [18 May 93, San Jose Mercury News]

A 24-year-old salesman from Hialeah, Fla., was killed near Lantana,
Fla., in March when his car smashed into a pole in the median strip of
Interstate 95 in the middle of the afternoon. Police said that the man
was traveling at 80  MPH and, judging by the sales manual that was
found open and clutched to his chest, had been busy reading.


NOMINEE #10 [1/29/96 The News of the weird.] JOINT NOMINEE

Michael Anderson Godwin made News of the Weird posthumously in 1989.
He had spent several years awaiting South Carolina's electric chair on
a murder conviction before having his sentence reduced to life in
prison.

In March 1989, sitting on a metal toilet in his cell and attempting to
fix his small TV set, he bit into a wire and was electrocuted.

On Jan. 1, 1997, Laurence Baker, also a convicted murderer once on
death row, but later serving a life sentence at the state prison in
Pittsburgh, Pa., was electrocuted by his homemade earphones as he
watched his small TV while sitting on his metal toilet.


NOMINEE #11 ["The Indianapolis Star", Wed., Dec. 4, 1996].

A Jay County man using a cigarette lighter to check the barrel of a
muzzleloader was killed Monday night when the weapon discharged in his
face, sheriff's investigators said.  Gregory David Pryor, 19, died in
his parents' rural Dunkirk home about 11:30 p.m.  Investigators said
Pryor was cleaning  a .54-caliber muzzleloader that had not been
firing properly.  He was using the lighter to look into the barrel
when the gunpowder ignited.


NOMINEE #12 [AP, Mammoth Lakes]

A San Anselmo man died yesterday when he hit a lift tower at the
Mammoth Mountain ski area while riding down the slope on a foam pad,
authorities said. Matthew David Hubal, 22, was pronounced dead at
Centinela Mammoth Hospital.  The accident occurred about 3 a.m., the
Mono County Sheriff's Department said.  Hubal and his friends
apparently had hiked up a ski run called Stump Alley and undid some
yellow foam protectors from the lift towers, said Lieutenant Mike
Donnelly of the Mammoth Lakes Police Department.  The pads are used to
protect skiers who might hit the towers. The group apparently used the
pads to slide down the ski slope and Hubal crashed into a tower. It
was not clear if the tower he hit was one with its pad removed. "With
the cold temperatures, the snow was probably pretty fast," said
Donnelly.


NOMINEE #13 [Reuters, Warsaw, Poland, 5 May 1995]

A poacher electrocuting fish in a lake in central Poland fell into the
water and suffered the same fate as his quarry, police said Thursday.

The 24-year-old man was one of four who went fishing with a cable, one
end of which they attached to a net and the other to a high-voltage
electricity supply line, the PAP news agency quoted a police official
in Wloclawek as saying. "For a while everything went according to the
poachers' plan and they had fish in their bags. But at a certain
moment the man holding the net tripped and  fell into the water," the
agency said. The other poachers tried in vain to revive  him, it said.


NOMINEE #14 [AP, St. Louis]

Robert Puelo, 32, was apparently being disorderly in a St. Louis 
market.

When the clerk threatened to call police, Puelo grabbed a hot dog,
shoved it in his mouth, and walked out without paying for it. Police
found him unconscious in front of the store: paramedics removed the
six-inch wiener from his throat, where it had choked him to death.


NOMINEE 15 [Unknown]

To poacher Marino Malerba, who shot a stag standing above him on an
overhanging rock-- and was killed instantly when it fell on him.


NOMINEE 16 [Associated Press, Kincaid, W. VA]

Blasting Cap Explodes in Man's Mouth at Party.  A man at a party
popped a blasting cap into his mouth and bit down, triggering an
explosion that blew off his lips, teeth and tongue, state police said
Wednesday.

Jerry Stromyer, 24, of Kincaid, bit the blasting cap as a prank during
a party late Tuesday night, said Cpl. M.D.Payne. "Another man had it
in an aquarium, hooked to a battery, and was trying to explode it,"
Payne said. "It wouldn't go off and this guy said, 'I'll show you how
to set it off'. I just can't imagine anyone doing something like
that," Payne said.


NOMINEE #17 [Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 1-1-93]

In December near Mineral Wells, Tex., three men who were attempting to
steal copper wire off live electrical lines for resale were
electrocuted.

Copper wiring is a valuable scrap metal in Texas but is usually stolen
from electric cables that are not being used.


========================================


Here are some people that may be future nominees/winners, but still
haven't made it to the "Big Leagues":


[UPI, Portland, OR]

Doctors at Portland's University Hospital said Wednesday an Oregon man
shot through the skull by a hunting arrow is lucky to be alive, and
will be released soon from the hospital.  Tony Roberts, 25, lost his
right eye last weekend during an initiation into a men's rafting club,
Mountain Men Anonymous, in Grants Pass, Ore. A friend tried to shoot a
beer can off his head, but the arrow entered  Roberts' right eye.

Doctors said had the arrow gone 1 millimeter to the left, a major
blood vessel would have cut and Roberts would have died instantly.

Neurosurgeon Dr. Johnny Delashaw at the University Hospital in
Portland said the arrow went through 8 to 10 inches of brain, with the
tip protruding at the rear of his skill, yet somehow managed to miss
all major blood vessels. Delashaw also said had Robert tried to pull
the arrow out on his own he surely would have killed himself.  Roberts
admitted afterwards he and his friends had been drinking that 
afternoon.

Said Roberts, "I feel so dumb about this."

No charges have been filed but the Josephine County district
attorney's office said the initiation stunt is under investigation.


VANCOUVER (CP)

A man arguing over a love triangle accidently shot himself in the
groin, taking off his testicles and part of his penis. Police said the
man was waving a .357 Magnum revolver around during the shouting match
early yesterday. But when he stuffed it back in his pants the gun went
off.

Police were called to the hospital after the man in his 20s was
brought in by friends. Charges are pending against the victim, who is
expected to survive.


Arkansas Democrat Gazette, July 25, 1996:

Two local men were seriously injured when their pick-up truck left the
road and struck a tree near Cotton Patch on State Highway 38 early
Monday morning. Woodruff County deputy Dovey Snyder reported the
accident shortly after midnight Monday. Thurston Poole, 33, of Des Arc
and Billy Ray Wallis, 38, of Little Rock are listed in serious
condition at Baptist Medical Center.  The accident  occurred as the
two men were returning to Des Arc after a frog gigging trip. On an
overcast Sunday night, Poole's pick-up truck headlights malfunctioned.
The two men concluded that the headlight fuse on the older model truck
had burned out.  As a replacement fuse was not available, Wallis
noticed that the .22 caliber bullet from his pistol fit perfectly into
the fuse box next to the steering wheel column.  Upon inserting the
bullet, the headlights again began to operate properly and the two men
proceeded on east-bound toward the WhiteRiver bridge.

After traveling approximately twenty miles and just before crossing
the river, the bullet apparently overheated, discharged and struck
Poole in the right testicle. The vehicle swerved sharply to the right
exiting the pavement and striking a tree.

Poole suffered only minor cuts and abrasions from the accident, but
will require surgery to repair the other wound.  Wallis sustained a
broken clavicle  and was treated and released.  "Thank God we weren't
on that bridge when Thurston shot his nuts off or we might both be
dead" stated Wallis.

"I've been a trooper for ten years in this part of the world, but this
is a first for me. I can't believe that those two would admit how this
accident happened", said Snyder.

Upon being notified of the wreck, Lavinia, Poole's wife asked how many
frogs the boys had caught and did anyone get them from the truck.


James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1285
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 5 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1286



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [Off topic] Games shops in New York, USA
Map needed
More VilaniWorld stuff
(fwd) Darwin Award 1997
Re: Sport in the Imperium
Re: NDs, canon, technical considerations
Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...
Darwinian PCs
Traveller ad in Starlog
Re: Who Are We (long)
Re: Babylon 5 Movie!
Crime and Punishment
Re: Future Disasters
IG Homepage down?
Re: Traveller ad in Starlog

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 11:40:24 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Games shops in New York, USA

At 03:25 PM 5/4/97 +0100, Liam wrote:

>Has anyone written a review of Emperor's Arsenal?  If so, could you point
>me to a web page or TML digest #; if not, does anyone have any opinions
>about it?

EA is a Good Thing.  Well written, great art.. it's what we've been waiting
for.  

The book is a collection of weapons (duh!) grouped by TL, from 0 to 16,
with essays on everything from ammo costs to nuclear weapons.  The writing
is clear and to the point, given fromt he point of view of the editor of
Carnak's Surface Weapons.  The weapons provided cover the range from body
pistols, to plasma weapons, to Battle Dress.. you'll find something for
every campaign style here.

The art needs to be mentioned.  Bryon Gibson has captured the essence of
what we were debating a few months back- his art is "Travelleresque."  You
get that "Keith brothers era" feeling from the drawings, along with a good
visual reference for what you are carrying.

Buy it.



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 12:29:15 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Map needed

Does anyone have a map of Lunion subsector in .GIF format?  I need it for
an imagemap for my Lunion pages.. any help would be apprciated.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 97 21:32:00 +0200
From: marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
Subject: More VilaniWorld stuff

Here are some random notes on the Traveller Theme Park.
I'm currently toying with the idea to get players involved with one
of these. My current group is quite small, and counts two technicians
and an ex-army characters.

One possibility I'm considering is to have them contracted as
specialized manpower during the *building* of one of these sites.
This could possibly give a lot of very short and varied scenarios
(and yes, I'd like some input on this).

The idea behind Vilaniworld (ok, I'm working on an alternate name) is
that even if PC's routinely engage in space flights, fight aliens,
pirates and the police in incredibly hostile and bizzarre
environments, more than 90% of the Imperial population still works
and lives on Earth-like planets and lives pretty normal lives, after
all.
Ok, mommy may have been drafted in the Marines and daddy actually
worked on a Subsidized Merchant when he was young, but they have
settled now, or perhaps they never visited really interesting planets
during their careers ... so Vilaniworld may have something to offer
to them, too.

First of all, when you get your electronic pass at the entrance you
must register as a member of one of the "services". You may decide to
be Scout, Navy, Marine or Merchant. The staff will oblige and give
you a fake id and a cap (like a baseball cap) with a distinctive colour and
the name of the service emblazoned on it.
From this point on, the staff, robots and computer-driven attractions
will react to your assumed service by referring to you by proper
rank/service designation.  Some of the attractions will react in
slightly different ways depending on the service you choosed. Others
will allow you to advance in rank when completed... and you will go
home with fake insignia and certificates.
Another idea is that the credit-card size ticket you got at the
entrance may also act as a map, let you buy stuff, give info on the
park and inform you of the length of queues for the various
attractions.

Here is a small lists of the "Classical Themes". For a couple of them
I've also described one of the attractions.

_StarTown_
The obvious starting point. It simulates a romanticized view of the
typical StarTown, with a lot of buildings hosting bars, restaurant
and shops. From this zone you may reach the other themes through some
aptly themed building (research lab, shuttle station and so on).

_WaterLand_
A section inspired by the Waterworld environment. Obviously it will
not be present in parks built on *actual* waterworlds.
The main feature is a large lake with a smattering of small atolls
on it; you can take rides on various kinds of waterships and engage
in seaside activities. During the cruise you will meet/spot real or
fake marine creatures.

_"DeepCity 9"_ (Waterland Attraction)
On the edge of the lake there is a building which let you experiment
the "undersea life".  A special machine will instantly produce for
you a fully enclosed suit you can wear over your dress. The personnel
helps you with the suit, gives you a transparent helmet, secures a
"breathing/mobile" unit on your back, give you some simple advice on
how to guide the thing and down you go.
Even with the high TL, security risks could be too high, so all the
underwater environment is just a clever a simulation. Actually you
descend in an underground complex which has been built in the ground
facing away from the lake; the elevator which takes you down to the
"pressure chamber" conceals this fact by slowly rotating you away from
the lake during the descent.  The area in which you "float/swim" is a
near-0g zone (thanks to anti-g plates) and you are actually propelled
by air-jets from your back-unit. This way you move in a simulate
environment without the risk of getting drowned. The worst possible
disaster is a failure in the anti-g apparatus in one of the sections.
In this case people would fall down, but the "undersea" environment
is built as a series of caves and corals banks, with plenty of
artificial seaweeds, sandy patches and other passive failsafe systems
which will help reduce the damage down to bruises.  Obviously the
simulation wil be enhanced by high TL gimmicks: holograms will add
air bubbles, plancton-like life forms, distant fish schools and so
on.
The helmet contains a small radio which allows you to talk with your
friends/family and receive audio/video info on the environment you
are in through a simplified HUD display. Internal audio effects will
enhance the idea of actually being underwater.  People with scuba or
related skills will probably notice small telltale details, but the
majority of people will probably fall for it. Especially childs.
Following the various "lanes" you will be able to explore a
shipwreck, chase around small (robot) creatures and finally enter an
"underwater lab" (where g is restored to normal levels) in which you
may take off your helmet, visit interesting exhibition on waterworld
colonization, buy gizmos at the "Lab Shop" and have a drink at the
DeepBlue cafeteria.  Leaving the Lab, you will put your helmet on
again, and follow another (brief) route to the exit, when the suit
will be taken from you (and his plastic fibers will be 100% recycled
for the next visitor). The helmet will be sanitized and re-sent to
the entrance.

_SpaceLand_
Star Travel theme. Lot of Imperial Navy stuff. Careful choice of
BEMs: they must *not* resemble known members of the Imperium
population. Space Pirates.

_Star Raiders_ (Spaceland Attraction)
You must be at least 12 years old to take this ride.  Visitors are
divided in groups of 10-12 people and lead around a replica of a
medium size starship. During the trip inside g-plates and videos will
sustain the simulation that the starship is actually leaving the
planet. During the simulated voyage, an alarm signal will go off, and
the guide will scream "Oh No! The Star Raiders! We are under attack".
S/he will hastily open a locker and distribute (fake) laser weapons
to all the people.  After a brief (simulated) space skirmish with a
lot of explosions, battle reports over the intercom and a lot of
flickering lights, the group will have to defend the ship's corridors
from a boarding party. The party is made up of robots wearing an
armor not unlike the one used by Star Wars stormtroopers... all the
scene could remind you of the opening battle of the first Star Wars
movie, in fact. Obviously the enemy will exhibit the classical
stormtrooper incompetence in aiming shots against the visitors, but
their weaponry will have plenty of effect against (selected) parts of
the corridors and other ship fixtures. After 2-3 minutes of general
mayhem, the surviving invaders will flee, and the ship will "return
to base" where people will get their plastic medals.

_HomeLand_
Through the research lab you may enter the "Experimental Time
Machine" which will dazzle you with fantastic scenery and hologram
animations... and then will open its gate to the Local Culture zone.
Here attractions are linked to local cultural influences and try to
depict familiar themes and ideas from the planetary history. People
and robots will have appropriate costumes and lifelike replicas of
famous people from the past will wander around (and sign your
autograph book...) These are mostly robots, and are backed by well
researched historical databanks on the figure they portrait, so you
can actually have some interesting chat with them.

_Ancientland_
History (and some myth) on the Ancients. Includes a couple of
fictional Ancient sites to explore/visit.


__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 19:45:43 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: (fwd) Darwin Award 1997

I pulled this from alt.humor shortly after I sent the previous Darwin
Nominee listing.  Larry did not really deserve to win, IMHO, since he
is still capable of breeding and passing on his "ideas" to future
generations.  Enjoy.




**********************************************

DARWIN AWARD WINNER FOR 1997 ANNOUNCED:  You all know about the Darwin
Awards - it's an annual honor given to the person who did the gene
pool the biggest service by killing themselves in the most
extraordinarily stupid way.  The 1995 winner was the fellow who was
killed by a coke machine which toppled over on top of him as he was
attempting to tip a free soda out of it.  In 1996, the winner was an
Air Force Sergeant who attached a jet engine (JATO) unit to his car
and crashed into a cliff several hundred feet above the road.  And
now, the 1997 winner:  Larry Waters of Los Angeles - one of the few
Darwin winners to survive his award-winning accomplishment.

Larry's boyhood dream was to fly.  When he graduated from high school,
he joined the Air Force in hopes of becoming a pilot.  Unfortunately,
poor eyesight disqualified him.  When he was finally discharged, he
had to satisfy himself with watching Jets fly over his backyard.  One
day, Larry had a bright idea.  He decided to fly.  He went to the
local Army-navy surplus store and purchased 45 weather balloons and
several tanks of helium.  The weather balloons, when fully inflated,
would measure more than four feet across.  Back home, Larry securely
strapped the weather balloons to his sturdy lawn chair.

He anchored the chair to the bumper of his Jeep and inflated the
balloons with the helium.  He climbed on for a test while it was still
only a few feet above the ground.

Satisfied it would work, Larry packed several sandwiches and a
six-pack of Miller Lite, loaded his pellet gun - figuring he could pop
a few balloons when it was time to descend - and went back to the
floating lawn chair.  He tied himself in along with his pellet gun and
provisions.  Larry's plan was to lazily float up to a height of about
30 feet above his back yard after severing the anchor and in a few
hours come back down.

Things didn't quite work out that way.

When he cut the cord anchoring the lawn chair to his jeep, he didn't
float lazily up to 30 or so feet.  Instead he streaked into the L.A.
sky as if shot from a cannon.

He didn't level off at 30 feet, nor did he level off at 100 feet.
After climbing and climbing, he levelled off at 11,000 feet.  At that
height he couldn't risk shooting any of the balloons, lest he
unbalance the load and really find himself in trouble.  so he stayed
there, drifting, cold and frightened, for more than 14 hours.

Then he really got in trouble.

He found himself drifting into the primary approach corridor of Los
Angeles International Airport.

A United pilot first spotted Larry.  He radioed the tower and
described passing a guy in a lawn chair with a gun.  Radar confirmed
the existence of an object floating 11,000 feet above the airport.

LAX emergency procedures swung into full alert and a helicopter was
dispatched to investigate.

LAX is right on the ocean.  Night was falling and the offshore breeze
began to blow.  It carried Larry out to sea with the helicopter in hot
pursuit.

Several miles out, the helicopter caught up with Larry.  Once the crew
determined that Larry was not dangerous, they attempted to close in
for a rescue but the draft from the blades would push Larry away
whenever they neared.

Finally, the helicopter ascended to a position several hundred feet
above Larry and lowered a rescue line. Larry snagged the line and was
hauled back to shore. The difficult maneuver was flawlessly executed
by the helicopter crew.

As soon as Larry was hauled to earth, he was arrested by waiting
members of the LAPD for violating LAX airspace.

As he was led away in handcuffs, a reporter dispatched to cover the
daring rescue asked why he had done it.  Larry stopped, turned and
replied nonchalantly, "A man can't just sit around".

Let's hear it for Larry Waters, the 1997 Darwin Award winner.

***********************************************




James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:06:58 -0700
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Sport in the Imperium

you know... if Grav Ball is going to play a major Role... wich i think
is cool... we need to design Grav Boots for the purpose of the game.......
i'd like to see people's idea's.. or team names... for a Grav Ball League
in the Core Sector....


				- Rob


farpoint@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:52:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: NDs, canon, technical considerations

Quoth Bri:
> Seems like this could also be focused on 'normal' matter to cause it to
> decay into a pile of sludge.. Disintigrator beams, anyone?

I believe MegaTraveller stated that disintegrators were an outgrowth of
nuclear damper technology, so you're exactly right.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:23:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...

> We discovered a bit of a problem with this.  It does a good job of making
> spectacular failure a bit less likely as one's skill increases and it works
> with low-mid level skills, but when a character has a high skill level
> (say, 4 or more) it becomes impossible to spectactularly fail at simpler (3
> dice or less) tasks.  Everybody (so I think) should have a chance to fail.  
> 
> Plodding along...
> 
> PS - We used KBv2.0 skills again tonight and they worked fine!


Bill, have you tried using 3 sixes as SF?  That's what I use with 
KBv2.0, and the percentages aren't that bad (around 10% for 
Impossible throws--less for the other categories).

There are two good things about doing it this way.  One is that the 
chance of SF goes up the harder task you attempt.  I like that, and 
it seems logical that your chance of royally screwing up should be 
greater if you are trying a really hard feat.

Second, this is exactly what T4-revised is using.  I like to keep the 
rule changes to a minimum.

And, if you think about it, this actually works better with KBv2.0 
than it does with T4-revised because SF can be done with Average and 
higher skill throws.  With T4-revised, you have to attempt a 
Formidable task before you can throw SF.

If you ask me, there should be a chance for SF way before you get to 
Formidable--like Average and Difficult throws.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 10:14:32 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Darwinian PCs

>> David J. Golden wrote:
>>
>>>         ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games? 
>>> Players who *really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?

Aftermath! rather than Traveller.
 Two PCs were clearing out a house, one outside (PC1) covering the exit,
one inside (PC2) sweeping through.
 Much scuffling and gunfire inside.
PC1 "Are you OK in there?"
PC2 "Yeah, I'm fine. Out of ammo, though!"

PC2 did survive, though (through no fault of his own :)


R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:49:58 CST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Traveller ad in Starlog

I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet, but if I saw it right, Imperium
Games had an ad for Traveller in a recent issue of Starlog, which is one
of the mainstream magazines in the sci-fi/fantasy community.  It's a
small ad, and I was only flipping through it, but it looked like the
cover from the main rulebook.  It was in the lower right corner of one of
the first few pages of the magazine.

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:20:59 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Who Are We (long)

TNE Stats

Name: Harold D. Hale
Occupation: Information Scientist (OK, I'm a librarian, but Bureaucrat
didn't fit as well)
Gender: Male
Homeworld: Terra
Age: 33

UPP: (TNE) A769A8-4-8
     (T4)  B87AB9-4 (tested and verfied at GenCon)

(I've got to start jogging again <sigh>)

Initative: 2 (6 when angered, or so I'm told)

Skills and Attributes: History-5, Research-5, Admin/Legal-4, Slug
Rifle-4, Computer-2, Ground Tactics-2, Ground Vehicle (wheeled)-2,
Navigation-2, Slug Pistol-2, Act/Bluff-1, Autogun-1, Climbing-1,
Farming-1, Forward Observer-1, Instruction-1, Language (French)-1,
Leadership-1, Linguistics-1, Map-1, Medical (Trauma Aid)-1, Physics-1,
Survival-1, Tac Missile-1, Willpower-1, High-G Environment-0

(Probably dozens of others at level zero)

Contacts: Academic, Business-1, Military-1

Derived Values: Weight-96 kg (211 lbs.), Load-48 kg, Throw Range-40 m,
Unarmed Combat Damage-1D6

(OK, I wish I weighed 211 lbs--like I said, I've *got* to start jogging
again)

Hit Capacity: Head-12, Chest-48, Other-32

(my wife would say the head capacity is much higher, since I have such a
thick head...)

Equipment: Ground Car, Bicycle, 3 Computers, 2 Shotguns (one pump, one
double barrel breech loader), Gamemaster Lightning Bolts of Death (can
summon as many as is required, effective against all PCs, NPCs),
Gamemaster Personal Invisible Defense Shield (effective against all
attacks by player characters or NPCs, worthless against reality-based
weaponry), mechanical toolkit, other miscellanous items listed
seperately

Starting Money: Cr4,000 (well maybe if I took cash advances out on my
credit cards)

History: Born in AD 1963 in a mountainous, agricultural region of the
North American continent on Terra (Kentucky), his parents soon moved to
a more industrial region (Ohio) in search of work, which his father
found as machine operator in a factory.  Harold grew up in a middle
class suburban household, learning some of the ways of his ancestors,
but seemed more drawn toward academic pursuits, particularly the
military and political history of Terra.  Only occasionally gaining
academic recognition, he was known as a bright, but somewhat
undisciplined student who was just as likely to study a subject that
caught his fancy as he was his coursework (which may account for his
undistinguished academic career).  Even today, he is known to spend many
hours with his nose in a book or in front of a computer terminal in
search of knowledge about a particular topic or some bit of trivia, a
talent (?) he later made into a career.  Beginning college at age 17, he
also enlisted in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) with the
idea of one day becoming an officer on active duty.  A better student of
military science than a warrior, he settled for a hitch in the Army
Reserve, where he was trained as a short range air defense artillery
officer, but because of a shortage of slots, actually served in mostly
administrative posts until leaving the service several years later. 
While attending college, he met and eventually wed his wife Elaine, who
was also student.  Twelve years later Harold is still mystified how she
puts up with him.  Also while attending college, he discovered work in
libraries.  Fascinated by the knowledge that surrounded him on a daily
basis (and thankful he would no longer run up astronomical library
fines), he started as a student assistant at one the university's
libraries, and has continued to pursue work in the field ever since,
holding a variety of positions at an assortment of institutions,
including running his own library for the branch of a
defense-contracting corporation.  Today, he lives in the same region
that he grew up, and works for another defense-contractor, serving in
the capacity of research coordinator for a staff of six.  He is heard to
refer to his supervisor as being a "micromanaging pseudo-intellectual"
so a another job change may be in order soon (Resume and references
available upon request).    

Science-Fiction History: Grew up watching "Outer Limits" (I'm told I was
fascinated by it at a very early age, new series doesn't measure up to
the old one), and "Twilight Zone", later "Battlestar Galactica", "Star
Wars", and of course "Star Trek" (which I don't remember in first run,
but certainly caught in re-runs until I memorized most episodes
including sections of dialogue), other TV shows and films too numerous
to mention.  I wasn't into reading science-fiction particularly until
college (my reading time went into history, though I read "Star Wars"
before I saw it on the big screen), where I discovered Arthur C.
Clarke.  I prefer short stories to novels, as I like to finish pieces in
one sitting (this made reading Harry Turtledove's "Guns of the South" a
challenge--I cheated and took three days).  Started playing Traveller
about 1981 or 82 (my long time friend John is a bit fuzzy on the date as
well).  Used the "little black books" up until 1987, when MegaTraveller
came out.  Bought MegaTraveller and hated it, not because of the
storyline so much (which I would have prefered something else) as the
rather poor quality of the editing, which spoiled the game for me.  My
gaming group broke up about this time, and I basically stopped playing
and put the books away for a year until 1989 while I was living in
California.  It was then I started thinking about submitting work to
Game Designers' Workshop (still no gaming group).  Sent some initial
query letters that weren't answered.  After moving back to Ohio in 1990,
I finally got serious and completed a large work on designing drone
missiles/robots for MegaTraveller.  Submitted to GDW in 1992, never
published.  It did get me an invitation to the first (and as it turns
out, only) GDW Traveller Writer's Conference, held in Bloomington,
Illinois in the summer of 1992.  The basic concepts for Traveller the
New Era were introduced at this conference.  I went on to consult with
Dave, Loren, et al on a continuing basis over the next four years
concerning TNE and its development.  Submitted more work for
publication, including "Playland", and adventure published in Challenge
76, several small arms and two attack speeder designs which were
published in the RC Equipment Guide, among others.  Developed the
"Children of Earth: The Solomani Rim In the New Era" setting which GDW
contemplated publishing before instead decided to go ahead with
development of the Regency (which may have been just as well--COE needed
a lot more at the time).  COE would eventually appear in Traveller
Chronicle as a regular feature after GDW went under (thanks Kevin, sorry
Dave, Loren, Frank, et al).  Starting running a gaming group again in
1993, with two friends and myself playing TNE, now group consists of
seven friends and myself playing TNE and Star Wars RPG.  Joined the
History of the Imperium Working Group in 1992.  Became its Chairman
(title formerly 'Chairsophont' which I changed by decree as I am a
member of the Solomani Party) in 1995.  Looked to chart a new course for
the organization.

Science-Fiction Present: I'm working on additional COE stuff as I type,
and the COE Web site is now operational.  I'm a member of the fan group
trying to bring back "Space: Above and Beyond" (a lost cause, but at
least we got the Sci-Fi Channel to pick up the reruns starting in 1998),
and a member of a fan group trying to keep TNE alive (not a lost
cause).  Bought T4 basic book in August 1996, talked with Marc Miller
concerning the direction he planned to take the game (thanks Marc). 
After reading the basic manual, leafing through several supplements at
game stores, and listening to other people's comments on T4 (not just
here but elsewhere), I have concluded that IG's T4 is turning out to be
a replay of MegaTraveller.  I have no desire to support it further
monetarily or creatively.  While I hope that Marc's "T4.5" is better,
and I am open to doing some writing for it (and willing consult with
anyone working on a major overhaul of the system), my gaming group and I
still prefer a slightly revised TNE (with mods made in light of
experience) over anything Marc or IG (or anyone else) have planned for
"T4.5".

Science-Fiction Future: COE on the big screen?  Bloody unlikely, but an
illustrated novel would be nice (must find an illustrator gullible
enough or insane enough to work for free until idea can be sold). 
Beyond that, maybe some writing outside the boundaries of Traveller. 
We'll see as they say....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:16:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Babylon 5 Movie!

	Howdy!

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I've just been informed by one of my trusty Traveller players that 
> the B5 movie is due out in January on TNT.


	Yup.  JMS signed for 3 two-hour movies with the TNT network.  This
is irrespective of whether or not there is a fifth season.

	Cool stuff!

	Speaking of cable, anyone see the two LEXX: Darkzone Story movies
on Showtime?  They are *horrible*.  Interesting production designs (in
some rare cases), but bad acting and bad writing.  There are two more
movies due out in the coming weeks, and an option for another 20 hours.  I
think that they are going to pass on the option.... (BTW, it is a joint
Canadian/German production).

	Later!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:53:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Crime and Punishment

Ok how bout some discussion on the penal system.  Do we see penal colonies
like the old world (I seem to recall something about penal colonies and
Australia) or Star Trek.  Or perhaps a more of an Escape from NY type of
thing.  Maybe collars with explosive charges.  I remember reading a short
story about an island penal colony where the inmates lived and served as
organ donors.  Eventually giving up enough that they die.  

In the same respect we would also see Old West types of scenarios with low
law levels.

Discuss amongst yerselves...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:52:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Future Disasters

>> Spontaneous natural nuclear reactions.
[snip]
>
>More likely scenario...
>
>An area with hotsprings and the like finally cuts through into a rich
>uranium deposit. The water acts as a moderator, allowing the formation
>of a natural reactor, much like the ones we've found the remains of in
>the Congo. 
[snip]

Cool. Or rather: hot.

BTW: Seems I mis-remembered the process behind my 'spontaneous natural
nuclear reactions'. Here it is from the source, _Timescale: An Atlas of the
Fourth Dimension_ (one of my all-time favourite books - can't recommend it
highly enough), by Nigel Calder, page 110:

Circa 2000 million years ago, during Earth's 'oxygen revolution':

"In a bizarre side effect, the oxygen mobilized uranium compounds in the
water, and bacteria stockpiled them in ores. Fissile uranium-235 was much
commoner than it is today, and rich ores became natural nuclear reactors.
In western Africa 2000 million years ago, chain reactions consumed several
tons of uranium-235 in one small district."

In his glossary/reference section, he clarifies (page 283):

"At Oklo in Gabon, Africa, some compact bodies of rich uranium ore engaged
in spontaneous chain reactions which consumed at least six tons of
uranium-235 and released the usual mess of fission products (R. Bodu, et
al. _Comptes Rendus_, Vol.275, p.275; J.R. DeLaeter, et al., _Earth and
Planetary Science Letters_, Vol. 50, 1980, p.238)."

I would assume that Traveller characters are only likely to encounter this
sort of thing on planets with rather higher heavy-metals content than
Terra. Or much younger planets.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:48:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: IG Homepage down?

I've been trying to go to the IG Webpage, but i always get a "remote 
Server may be down" error!
Does anybody know more?
I don't like this at all!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:17:00 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller ad in Starlog

- -> An:             traveller@MPGN.COM
- -> Absendedatum:   Sun, 4 May 1997 18:49:58 CST
- -> Betreff:        Traveller ad in Starlog
- -> Von:            galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
- -> Antworten an:   traveller@MPGN.COM

- -> I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet, but if I saw it right, Imperium
- -> Games had an ad for Traveller in a recent issue of Starlog, which is one
- -> of the mainstream magazines in the sci-fi/fantasy community.  It's a
- -> small ad, and I was only flipping through it, but it looked like the
- -> cover from the main rulebook.  It was in the lower right corner of one of
- -> the first few pages of the magazine.
- -> 
- -> Scott Galliand
Hooray, they heard the call! Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1286
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 5 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1287



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AllTech levels
The Commander Moves, and THUDDD
Re: IG Homepage down?
Traveller pricing
BARD Writeup: Aurora
Animal Encounters
Re: Crime and Punishment
Re: Polyhedra
Opposed Tasks 
Comments on May THUDDD Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:07:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: AllTech levels

Craig Berry writes:
>A parsec is a week and 8,000 credits, less if you feel lucky.  Much less
>if you're freight rather than a sophont.  That's not very far.

8000 credits is almost a full yearly income for an average citizen. That
could be said to be quite a long way, in a way. It could represent many
years' work.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:43:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: The Commander Moves, and THUDDD

Greetings eveyone.

This message goes out to those people in IRC land (U know who U R!). 
 Especialy those who I game with on a regular basis(Allen, Suz).  This was 
the best way I could reach eveybody in one swell foop! :)

I have recently moved into a new house with the rest of my clan.  While we 
have power and I can use my PC for gaming, we still do not have the phones 
transfered yet.  Also the ISP bill was up and hasn't been paid because of 
the move.  As a result, It may be a week, possibly 2 before I can get home 
net access again.  The clan is currently working on the problem, but the 
fact is that the move ravaged our bank account, and I don't get paid until 
next Friday! :(

But at least I still have office access! :)

Allen, sorry about the LWH game, but I believe we were going to reschedule 
the time anyway right?

Suz, It may be a while before I can get access to the cmdrx@magicnet.net 
mail for the PBEM.

But as I seem to have nothing else better to do at work, I WILL be working 
on the next THUDDD entry as e-mail is not a problem.  As a matter of fact...


<CHR MODE ON>

125-0020 DSS-X 'Planet X' (2116 Core/Core AX00613-C)

X-TEK Diversifies into the civilian/commercial market.

In response to the THUDDD ship design contest sanctioned by the ISBA, The 
Commander announced that X-TEK should begin to diversify into the commercial 
sector.  "We have proven ourselves as an excellent source of millitary and 
paramillitary starships and systems.  As we now have created some ways to 
help the Imperium defend its borders, we must now embrace the commercial 
side of Cleon's dream.  If X-TEK is to remain competative, it must spread 
itself into the commercial sector as well as millitary."  The Commander then 
displayed a holovid of the next line of merchnat ships:

The Marco Class Trader, 100Td Wedge. Designed for the solitary trader.
The Solo Class Trader, 200Td Disc. Basic Stock Freighter, minimal componets 
but can be upgraded easily.
The Leo Class Heavy Trader 600Td

and for THUDDD

The Elizabeth Class 1000Td Exploritory Trader.

Named after an ancient Solomani Queen, during a time when wooden ships 
needed to be able to carry heavy amounts of gold and treasure from the newly 
found lands, and defend that rich capital from pirates and rival Kingdoms. 
 The Elizabeth Class lives up to those times, as we now find ourselves in a 
similar situation some 3000 in the future.  The Elizabeth will be able to go 
to the far reatches of our Empire, recontact lost worlds and begin trade. 
 It will be able to cary tons of valuable cargo To and from those worlds and 
protect it from would be pirates and rival Pocket Empires who would steal 
from the coffers of the Empire.  It is the hope of X-TEK that this design 
marks the fusion between corporate commercial know how, and X-TEK's strong 
military backing, in producing a viable vehicle for commerce.

The Commander also anounced the incorporation of two smaller, lower tech 
corporations.  Kor-El shipyards, based in Zarushagar Sector (subsector D). A 
specialist in low tech (TL 10+) Merchant Ships.  And Pegasus Technologies, 
makers of In-system  craft and primative starships (TL 8-9).  Both companies 
are actualy "Bootstrap" companies funded by X-TEK on low tech worlds in the 
Zarushagar Sector.


<CHR MODE OFF>

Well now its time to go to that ol' spreadsheet! :)

The Commander,
Who is tired from moving furniture and heavy boxes
And is about to fall asleep at his workstation
While trying to keep the electrons flowing smoothly
So he can get money to pay the STEENKIN' bills!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:52:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Homepage down?

On Mon, 5 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> I've been trying to go to the IG Webpage, but i always get a "remote 
> Server may be down" error!
> Does anybody know more?
> I don't like this at all!

Hmmmm. Works fine for me....I just went there, and it was fine.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:02:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: Traveller pricing

Hi: 

I was just at the Compleat Strategist over the weekend. They have
the Emperor's Arsenal selling for $22.95. Now if I were a new player
to Traveller and I saw this kind of pricing on such a small volume
compared to other game systems I would drop the game and play something
else. 

As it is now, I am not buying Traveller products until the game 
stabilizes. I will never buy a supplement at that kind of price. 



- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 97 11:43:49 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: BARD Writeup: Aurora

 Hi,
Here is another planetary write up. THis time for the planet Aurora in
the Reformation Coalition.  As always feel free to steal ideas from
this for other settings. 

Lewis

- -----------------------------------------

by Lewis Roberts and John Macpherson

Aurora B576646-B
          Size: Medium : D=8000km               Atmosphere:Standard tainted
          Hydrographics: 60%                    Population: 7 million
          Government: Representative Democracy  Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level: 11 (Avg Stellar)          Star port: Good

Physical Description:
     Aurora is a fairly pleasant world. It has a rather mild weather
pattern, with only occasional tropical storms. Its low axial tilt give
it a fairly mild seasonal pattern.  The temperature only drops around
10 degrees in the winter.  

     The one draw back of the planet is the high carbon dioxide levels
in the atmosphere.  This requires all offworld species to wear oxygen
masks.  Humans can survive without a mask for a few minutes, but after
that most people tend to pass out, and eventually die of oxygen
deprivation.  All native buildings and vehicles are sealed, so that
masks are only required when going outside.  Most vehicles are stored
in sealed garages, connected to the main dwelling, so that most
residents don't have to go outside, unless that is their destination. 
The residents don't fear the outdoors, many of them do go outside to
take walks and to enjoy nature.  
     
      The increased carbon dioxide has lead to a greenhouse effect
where the sun's rays are trapped in the atmosphere and heat it.  This
has raised the average temperature about 10 degrees.  The median
temperature for the planet is 26 C (79 F).

      Travellers landing at the capital's starport, will find a planet
that is sunny, with mild winters.  Most days the temperature is in the
upper twenties, and humid.  (This is very close to the weather in
Florida or Southeast US in the summer.)

      The planet is several billion years old, and has had enough time
to develop a fairly sophisticated ecosystem.  There is no sentient
life, but there are many species of mammalian life.  The biosphere is
quite similar to human norms.  Humans are able to eat most native
lifeforms with little worry.  This is very fortunate, because most
Terran stock animals don't take well to having to wear oxygen masks.  A
few off-world species have been genetically engineered to survive the
native air.  Most of these species are capable of breathing either
Auroran or Terran air levels.  

      Other than the atmosphere, the planet resembles a Terran standard
planet.  There are tree like plants, the sky is blue and clouds are
white and puffy.  There is no local equivalent of grass, most yards are
covered with a green moss like plant.  It does have the advantage of
not growing very fast and needing little maintenance.  

History:
    Before the Final War Aurora was a colony of Macis, which is now called 
Apollo.  The Collapse severed ties between the two worlds.  Resenting the 
fact that their planet was formerly owned by the Macins, Aurora became a 
democracy, and to this day they resent strong governmental controls.  The 
effects of the Collapse were severe, but the Aurorans banded together
and by making a concerted effort were able to rebuild.  By 1170 Aurora
had regained her old Tech Level, and had begun to advance past it. The
planet reached TL-10 around 1189 and reached its current state at TL-11
only in the last few years.  If the economy sustains itself at current
levels, the planet should be able to reach a global technological level
of 12 sometime around 1210.   It didn't have the capacity to build jump
drives, so it was forced to remain isolated.  In 1192, the Hivers made
contact, and Aurora was able to purchase jump drives.  It was a charter
member of the Dawn League, and an early proponent of the Reformation
Coalition.  Aurora has become a staunch supporter of the Federalists,
feeling that a strong extra-planetary government would take away the
freedoms that individual worlds now possess.

Government							
				 
    After the collapse, when Galos was cut off from Macis, the newly
freed people created a government which they hoped was as close to a
pure democracy as is possible. Voting is required in all elections of
all people who have reached a majority. The voting age is 17 standard
years.  The mandatory voting requires that each voter go to the polling
place, but they can enter a vote for no one.  The founders wanted
everyone to think about who should run the government, even if they
decided no one was worthy. Candidates for public office are given free
time on the government owned holovid channel. When there is no
election, this channel legislative sessions, news conferences and other
public affairs.  Candidates also make use of the worldwide computer
network, uploading transcripts of speeches, position papers, and even
digitized video of rallies.  There are no campaign donations.  All the
work of the campaign must be done by volunteers.  The founders figured
if a candidate can't get a few hundred
people to help him out, then the candidate probably couldn't win an election anyway.

     To get on the ballot, a candidate much have a petition signed. The
number of signatures required, depends on the office being sought.  These
petitions are circulated electronically.  Each signature is authenticated
by a electronic stamp, which each signer attaches to the petition.  The
stamps are a two step process, with the government holding one part, and
the citizen holding the other part.  No one has ever successfully managed
to forge a stamp.  The penalties for attempting to do so are extremely 
harsh, since such an attempt attacks the very foundation of Auroran society.
    Most candidates are members of a political party, these parties help
their candidates organize volunteers and the members of the party are a key
to filling out the petitions.  There are three major parties, the
People's Party, the Democratic Front, and the Union of Freedom.  These
make up 70% of the voters, the exact division can fluctuate, but is
usually fairly even.
There are six minor parties which make up 25% of the vote. These are the
Blue & White Party, the Liberty Party, the Saldorian Party, the People's
Democratic Party, the Free Democrats and the Worker's Union.  All these
parties have Federalist Sympathies, except for the Blue & White party.
It advocates that the Reformation Coalition needs a strong central
government and that all member states of the Coalition should be
required to be run by democratic governments.  The party has organized
several trips to worlds that have much less of a democratic tradition,
in an effort to create a grass roots movement.  They sent a mission to
Ra, which was thrown off planet.  In 1200 they sent a mission to
Oriflamme, which was denied entrance.  Their mission to Phoebus in
1201, was allowed to land, but the natives of Phoebus, are too
concerned with their next meal to worry about politics.  The Blues &
the Whites use these failures to raise money back home on Aurora. 
Secretly they expect them to fail and only initiate them to create
publicity.  They have much more quietly sent mission to Fija and Aubaine.  

     The central Auroran government is set up as a parliamentary system.
It has one legislative chamber made up of the people's chosen
representatives.   The chamber is known as the senate. The ruling
coalition chooses a prime minister, who chooses a cabinet and sets
policy.  The ruling coalition also selects a Senate President, who is
charge of running the senate's legislative agenda.  

      Currently the ruling coalition is made up of the Union of
Freedom, the Democratic Front, the Saldorian Party and the Free Democrats.  In total
they hold a slim 3% majority.  Assemblyman MacBaen, Aurora's representative
in the Assembly of Worlds is a member of the Union of Freedom. Planetary
elections are held every three standard years. The campaigning season
starts approximately six months before the elections. The last election
was held in 1200. There are 210 members of parliament.  The planet is
divided into districts of equal population. Each district elects its
own member of parliament.  The districts are redrawn every nine years,
to take account of any population movements. These are usually fairly
small changes, and they don't effect politics to any significant
degree.  The Auroran populace is fairly stable and doesn't seem to move
around a great deal. Municipal elections are held at the same time as
planetary elections. The exact details of these depend on the
municipality.  The representative to the Assembly of Worlds is also
chosen at this time, in the only planet-wide election.

Society:
     Popular culture on Aurora is dominated by the extreme technophilia
of its citizens.  As soon as a new technological innovation is developed
or readied for market, it instantly becomes the next hot item.  To fulfill
this craving for technological gizmos, hundreds of small labs and
engineering firms have sprung up to try to create the next hot item.
Many of these labs, merely redevelop items that were common on high
tech worlds in the old Imperium.  Most of the plans for these were
destroyed in the Collapse.  To get working examples of high tech goods,
these firms send buyers to the Auction. The buyers try to find useful
consumer goods that they can purchase, and have their labs copy.  Items
that have proven useful in the past include Triton Technologies'
portable holophone, where not just voice, not just image, but a full
holographic image of the sender is beamed to the user's wrist unit. 
Another is Donner & Associates 80x holographic data crystal system. One
of the more popular recent items to hit the market is Verotech's Proton
Motorcycle.  This item is on the very cutting edge of technology, it
uses the next level in fusion+ technology, allowing the motorcycle to
reach speeds in excess of 700kph.  

     The pace of these developments has accelerated since the creation
of the Dawn League, as more and more examples of high tech devices come
to the planet.  This has lead to some to question the wisdom of this
frenzy to acquire newer and better devices.  Most people have not paid
much attention to these nay sayers, but they are a growing voice in
academic discussions.  The constant production of new products has
created a surplus of older slightly used systems.  Several companies
have begun purchasing these, and shipping them to other less developed
worlds.  Popular destinations include Ra, Baldur, Nike Nimbus and
Lancer.  They have started some shipments to worlds out in the wilds
such as Xexor.  
 
     The Auroran people recognize that education is the key to their
success in the technological fields.  The government has set up a
wonderful school system, and attendance is free to all.  These schools
are extremely high quality and Auroran students are gaining an
excellent reputation across the Coalition.  This education starts at
age three, and goes post graduate work.  All fees are paid for by the
state and stipends are paid to students. Some students find the
academic experience so wonderful that they never want to leave. This
has created the so called professional students, people much older than
the average college student, who earn degree after degree without
entering the job market.  In recent years, this government has cracked
down on the professional students, requiring that students over age 25
maintain a high academic standing or lose their stipends, but those who
are able to achieve them are welcome to stay.  Professional students
are often a bit eccentric but are good-naturedly tolerated because of
their recognized abilities.  The many new and interesting
opportunities the economic expansion and tech advancement have created
have drawn many professional students into more "productive" pursuits where they
have proved very able if not always well disciplined. 

     In 1201 the Auroran government set up a scholarship program to
allow high quality off-world students to come and study at an Auroran
university.  The government figured it would bind the worlds of the RC
closer together, if their children studied and worked together.  Also
highly educated students will be very valuable when the go back to
their homes.  500 scholarships are awarded each year, to students from
across the Coalition.  Currently a new program is up for debate in the
Senate, which would expand this program to Allied worlds in the Wilds,
such as Lancer, Xexor and Kal.

     The average citizen is quite well educated and knowledgeable about
modern technology and its uses.  There is universal computer literacy,
and every home that wants one has a computer in the home.  For those in
financial difficulty, the government provides one.  The government
feels that a computer is essential to the education, of both children
and adults.  Also citizens of adult age are expected to use the
computer to explore issues effecting the world and the politicians
seeking their vote.  

      The planet is settled with many small cities of several hundred
thousand people each.  These cities are located on each of the three
major continents.  A high speed maglev train system connects those
cities on the same continent.  The train rides in an underground tunnel
which has had the air evacuated, to lessen the drag on the train. The
train is heavily subsidized by the government, and tickets cost between
100 and 500 credits.   

      The cities are made up of small office buildings intermixed with
small apartment buildings.  Most of these buildings are around ten
stories. The capital does contain a few buildings of twenty stories. 
Almost all Aurorans live in urban apartment buildings.  They like being
connected to their neighbors.  These apartments are very spacious,
ranging from five hundred to a thousand square meters.  Office
buildings and residential buildings are intermixed, this way residents
do not have to commute long distances to their job, and can spend more
time with friends and family.  Many parks are located around these
buildings, there are many different types of parks, including flower
gardens, playing fields, jogging areas and bike trails.  Heavily
automated factories are located on the outskirts of cities.  The area
between the cities is divided into agricultural land and government
owned land.  Most of this government owned land is set up as parks and
recreational facilities.  The rest of the land is kept pure 

     Devil's Playground Park is one of the most popular parks on
Aurora. The park covers well over 100,000 square kilometers.   It is
the site of a massive shield volcano.  The volcano hasn't erupted in
over five centuries, but it is still active at a very low level.  There
are many geothermal vents, hot springs and geysers.  The only spot
where lava is currently flowing is on the western face.  The lava pours
out rather slowly, and has only covered a few acres this year.  

     McCracken Lake is another popular destination on the park. This lake
is warmed by underground geothermal activity, and is a constant 30 degrees
Celsius (85 degrees Fahrenheit).  This warmth attracts many people. 
The warmth and the nutrient rich waters supports a diverse ecosystem. 
Many tourists use rebreathers to encounter the wildlife in its natural
environment.  To maintain a peaceful setting only rowed and sailed
watercraft are allowed on the lake.  The lake covers about 2000 square kilometers.  

Changing market effects society.

     The creation of the Reformation Coalition and the Dawn League
before it, have greatly effected life on Aurora.  Interstellar trade
has allowed the creation of new devices, and an increased demand for
these devices.  It is only through increased automation, that the
supply has kept up with the demand.  Aurora hasn't had many resources
left over to help explore the Wilds.  This has been especially
troubling to Assemblyman MacBaen.  He tried to get the planet to fund
one of the Twelve, but most of the parliament refused.  

     Aurora is one of the few places in the Coalition which is actively
researching robotic technology.  Most of the research consists of
making sure that Virus won't be able to infect these devices.  The
average Auroran citizen doesn't run in fear at the very mention of the
robots.  They believe that Virus was a tool created by humaniti.  The
same technology which created Virus can be used to destroy or even tame it. 

     This is not to say that Aurorans are selfish people who are
ignoring the Wilds. Several companies have developed ingenious devices
to help the survivors in the Wilds.  These include simple easy to
maintain tractors and farming equipment. These are manufactured on
Aurora, but many of the replacement parts are capable of being machined
on low tech worlds.  The rest are available from Auroran trading firms.
 Also low tech worlds do not need to duplicate every stage of
technological development, they can easily leapfrog over primitive
technologies.  For instance a world without telephones, doesn't have to
first build telegraphs, then wire based phones, and then fiber optic
phones. It can buy off world satellites and start with cellular
communications.  Several Auroran firms are selling such equipment.  

      The Auroran economy is in a state of flux, new markets are
opening up, and with it new jobs.  At the same time as these new jobs
are being created changing technology is eliminating some types of
jobs.  Luckily for now, these two forces are about equal, and there has
been no large scale job surplus or shortage.  Many people are having to
find a new career path, but the government is trying to make the
transition as easy as possible. It hasn't created any job training
programs as yet, workers are in such high demand that companies are
willing to pay to train them. The government does provide a good
benefit package for those people whose jobs have been eliminated, while
they search for work.  The government recognizes that losing a job that
has been held for decades, is a traumatic experience and some people
need a little time to adjust. In the future, the economy will stop its
expansion, and this will have an impact on the job market.  The
government has created several discussion groups on the compute
     These new off world markets that are opening up are bringing in
many luxury materials such as gold, gems and hand crafts.  These hand
crafts include art, hand crafted rugs, clothing, furniture, jewelry
etc.  Also some low tech worlds export mechanical devices, which high
technology can surpass in function, but not in form.  One of the best
examples of this is clocks from Xexor.  Auroran technology can make an
atomic clock capable of keeping time to the nearest nano-second, and
which never has to be wound or even have the battery changed.  Xexor
clocks are intricate machines with tiny gears, levers and counter
weights.  They keep time well, but not perfectly.  For all their
faults, they are extremely popular on Aurora.  Xexor exports thousands
of these clocks a month.  Many of them are wonderfully decorated and
prized by their Auroran owners.

     Another factor changing the Auroran economy is the new Naval base
being established.  The RCN has decided to set up its headquarters on
the planet.  The Navy is building a large orbital facility, to maintain
the fleets of Clippers that are being built.  The Navy is also planning
on building ships in orbit.  Standard Astronics has recently begun
upgrading Aurora's shipyard to help handle some of the overflow
construction.  This is opening up many job opportunities, to keep up
with the demand, the Navy is bringing in some offworld help.  So far
these are Naval personal, but the possibility remains that someday the
planet might need to import workers from lower tech planets to maintain
the naval base.  This has worried some in the community. They worry
that if many outsiders are brought in to perform menial tasks, it will
create an under-class.  The creation of a two tier society, would
undermine the democratic principals on which Auroran society is based.  


 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:25:44 -0700
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Animal Encounters

I was wondering since the T4 rule book doesn't explain combat
for animal encouters.... can someone give me idea's oh how
to run the encounters.. when they attack.... i need to figure
out the hit numbers they need to attack the party... so any help would be
great!



				- Rob

farpoint@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:57:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crime and Punishment

On Mon, 5 May 1997 VolantZep@aol.com wrote:

> Ok how bout some discussion on the penal system.  Do we see penal colonies
> like the old world (I seem to recall something about penal colonies and
> Australia) or Star Trek.  Or perhaps a more of an Escape from NY type of
> thing.  Maybe collars with explosive charges.  I remember reading a short
> story about an island penal colony where the inmates lived and served as
> organ donors.  Eventually giving up enough that they die.  

Wow...I disremember the title, but it was a Cordwainer Smith story. All
the prisoners were politicals of one sort or another. I seem to recall
that it was in the orignal Dangerous Visions anthology.

There's someone who I haven't read in ages and ages. Another favorite was
about the leader of a revolt by geneered animals, who was burned at the
stake

But, dragging it back to Traveller, there's ample canon material regarding
prison planets. I suspect they would really depend on who was running them
how they worked, so you could have a range from high tech prisons (like
that horrible one The Fortress with the guy from Highlander in it) to the
low tech (another move, with Ray Liotta bein dumped on an island with
nothing) to the usual cinematic Roadwarrior type situation, with little
law and order.

To which subject I ask the Aussie members of the list: How extensively WAS
Australia used as a penal colony? I know that to some extent the American
colonies were places for people who were persona non grata in England to
go, and lots of people escaped debtors prison by coming here as indentured
servants, but soon, when the potential wealth of the Colonies was known,
the English stopped wasting it on criminals.  

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:51:13 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

At 10:15 AM 5/3/97 -0600, Tim Smith wrote:
>Another philosophical note:
>
>Tetrahedron (4 sides) = Fire
>Cube (6 sides) = Earth
>Octahedron (8 sides) = Air
>Dodecahedron (12 sides) = ?
>Icosahedron (20 sides) = Water
>
>Plato spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the Dodecahedron stood
>for...

I haven't seen the movie yet, but does this by chance have anything to do
with "The Fifth Element"?

Also, why did Plato assign those elements to those particular polyhedra?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:00:04 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Opposed Tasks 

In my game last night, one of the characters attempted a grapple.  As 
a result, an opposed task was needed to see if the grappled 
character could break out as per the rules on pg. 55 of Book 1.

The rules for opposed tasks are on pg. 50 of Book 1.  I noticed 
that the wording for opposed tasks on the T4 Ref screen is 
confusing--it could be construed that each participant to the 
opposed task needs to roll his task as normal then compare results.  
This is definitely different from the description on pg. 50 of Book 
1, where it is written clearer how to handle opposed tasks.

Basically, the rule is (I've written this on both pg. 50 and on my 
ref screen for easy reference):

Roll 1 D6 + target number.  The higher result wins.


As for the wording in the book, it is OK, but I think the rule can be 
written even clearer:

Opposed Tasks:  

When characters are attempting an action in direct opposition, such 
as an arm-wrestling contest, it may not always be appropriate to have 
each character make a task roll until one fails.  A faster way to 
handle such situations is to have each roll 1 D6 and add their target 
numbers to the result.  The higher total wins the opposed task.



Clarification for KBv2.0:

This rule does not have to be changed for KBv2.0.  You can use it as 
is--except use the KBv2.0 target number.  That way each character 
gets the benefit of his skill (like KBv2.0 was designed to do), and 
the throw is more evenly weighted between a character's skill and 
natural ablility--not dominated by a character's attribute.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement

  In the past I have made my criteria for evaluating designs known only
after everyone has made their submissions.  This time I decided to share a
few thoughts about the criteria beforehand - both as an aid to discussion
and design, and as a way to work through my own thoughts and make them
clearer to myself.  I have started work on the Generica Starships entry,
but I wanted to run a few things by the rest of you first. 

> THUDDD - May 1997 - "Exploratory Trader"
> 
> The vessel to be produced is an exploratory trader.  The design is being
> commissioned by the Imperial government (through the Ministry of
> Commerce); their intent is that vessels of this class will be purchased
> and operated by megacorporations and possibly smaller speculative
> enterprises.  Subsidies are under consideration. 

  The exact nature of the rules of armament for a ship purchased by
corporations rather than the Imperial government is the subject of another
of my posts - I tend to think that missile batteries controlled by MFDs,
bay, and spinal weapons are probably not allowed for civilian purchasers
(though QSDS 1.5 is perhaps deliberatly unclear on the matter).

> The following requirements must be met:
> 
> * Size:         3000 dt or less

  This will be the single hardest decision to make in a design.  Smaller
ships are cheaper, and as Famille Spofulam has already pointed out in
their press release, more smaller cheaper ships can cover a wider area in
the same amount of time.  On the other hand, certain fixtures cost the
same and take up the same volume regardless of tonnage.  Plus, a larger
ship can carry a wider variety of equipment and goodies.  Finally, a
bigger ship is more impressive to the natives and offers echoes of the
Leviathan for us CT fans.

  On balance, I would encourage folks to go for larger designs, like 1000T
or larger, at least right now.  This opinion may change once I've seen the
other entries.

> * Jump:         J2 or more

  The choice here is J2 or J3, since we are doing M0 designs.  Tough
choice, in my view - I can see arguements for both (cost and cargo
capacity vs. operational flexibility).  Since the main word is
exploratory, I'll be awarding big points for J3 designs, since normal
economics do not apply as much.

> * Acceleration: 1G or more

  High G is not useful, but I think M2 is what one should shoot for,
rather than M1.  Margin of safety in landings on High G planets, for one
thing.  If the main ship is designed to wilderness refuel, the structure
would be profitably rated for higher than the thrusters.

> The vessel must be capable of:
> 
> * Wilderness refueling (directly or via carried craft)

  Given the vehicle size involved, I'd go for direct fueling, with at
least one carried craft that could slowly refuel the main ship in an
emergency.  Got to have a purification plant as well.

> * Operation for 1+ year away from starport facilities
>   (repair, resupply, recreation, etc.)

  I'd say this means at minimum an engineering shop and a sickbay, plus a
vehicle shop if small craft are carried.  Some tonnage devoted to an
entertainment area would also be nice.  I'm not sure what "resupply" in
the above notation means - maybe extra cargo space for enough food and
other consumables?

> * Landing/retrieving crew and cargo on planetary surfaces
>   (directly or via carried craft)

  I think a dual system here would be best - landing craft to venture into
the unknown on a routine basis, but with the main craft landing if things
are deamed safe or if rescue is needed.

> * Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft

  What exactly this means I am not sure - does it refer to similarly sized
trading ships, similarly sized warships, or similarly sized system
defense boats?  For example, I'd guess that most of the recent designs
for patrol cruisers would make short work of a 500-600T trading ship that
had any significant free cargo space.

  The key word here is probably "defense" - not that you should be able to
fight back, but that you should be able to survive long enough to get to
jump point.  Got to protect that cargo, after all.  Thus, I would tend to
favor a design with lots of sandcasters, dampers, and other defensive
strategies, but not with lots of lasers or missiles.

> Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.

  Do I detect a hint of my own influence here?  This clearly refers to
meson screens - the exact level of screening is unclear to me, though note
that under 1000T desgins have an advantage here, since they get a bonus
for the same sized equipment.  

> Provision must be made for security of landing parties and the care of
> wounded crew members. 

  This probably means some sort of ships troops and a sick bay, as well as
low berths for those badly injured.

> The purpose of this vessel is exploratory trade, well beyond the Imperial
> frontier.  As such, normal economic analysis based on intra-Imperial trade
> profitability does not apply well to this vessel.  However, as with any
> trader, a higher percentage of hull volume devoted to cargo implies higher
> profits -- *if* the requirements above are also met.  The same comments
> apply to the vessel's price.

  This is what makes this an interesting contest - every capability you
add in reduces the cargo you can carry.  Balance is what will carry the
day here, I think - keep it inexpensive, but not too stripped down. 

> 
> * Valid design systems are SSDS and QSDS 1.5.

  Do we know if all problems with these systems are fixed?  There still
seems to be some confusion about some points, like laser batteries.

> 
> * QSDS designs may use components from non-QSDS sources, if these
>   components are purchased without the 25% QSDS discount.  Most
>   notably, hulls from the Huge Table of Hulls fall into the non-
>   QSDS category.
 
  Thanks for the clarification - this makes good sense to me.


> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, start your spreadsheets! :)

  Boy do I feel primitive - it's all paper and pencil here, with a
calculator for the totals at the end.

  I hope these comments were interesting - further discussion is
encouraged.  I'm sure other issues will emerge once more designs are
posted.

  By the way, could someone post the Leviathan stats?  My copy is back in
Oregon and I'd be interested to see what that ship was like since it has
been so long since I read the adventure.  Ah, jump torpedos - what a
wonderful source of contention!


________________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1287
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 5 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1288



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

SS, END Pool, and Melee Combat
Re: FSY's May THUDDD Entry
Re: Animal Encounters
Re: Map needed
Re: The clever GM
[Noise] Anyone going to Dragon*Con???
Animal Target Numbers a snap with KBv2.0!
Re: Contact: Sayat
How far can a PC Run?
Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement
Position on worlds ?
Re: Contact: Sayat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:19:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: SS, END Pool, and Melee Combat

In our game last night, we had an extended melee fight.

Thinking about it today, there is a rule that I've taken from TNE 
that I want to experiment with.  Some of you may want to try it in 
your games as well.

In TNE, whenever you throw Spectacular Success for some of the melee 
attack routines, that action does not count against your total 
actions for the round.

Converting this to T4, I'm going to experiment with:

Whenever you throw SS in melee combat, that action still counts as an 
action for the round (although the character can use the multiple 
action rule for more actions in the round), but it does not count 
against your character's End pool.

I think that this rule might work out well because the SS % is low 
enough so that it won't happen that often, but higher skilled 
characters will occassionally get it (if you are using the KBv2.0 SS 
rule because SS is tied to a character's skill level) and allow them 
to (in general) fight longer before the End penalties kick in.

This makes sense to me.  The higher skilled you are at brawling, the 
longer you can probably last in the ring.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:45:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: FSY's May THUDDD Entry

  Man, do I feel guilty - I may have done something I thought was
impossible: get Familiee Spoofulam to design something dull!  I love their
stuff, honest I do - Joe Shugli, Generica's CEO, has a collection of their
stuff out back he likes to fool around with on slow days (Boom! Boom!
BOOM!!).  I guess I was too harsh in my comments about their last entry -
sorry about that!

  Well, on to my comments on the May entry - can't keep my big mouth shut. 
Lots to like here.  J3 M2 are spot on what I think are best, price is
right (though the hull may be a bit small), good offensive armament, a
small craft hanger, the maintenance, sickbay, and fuel purification needed
for extened ops. I especially like the hull - stressed to 10G, with 20
armor - very nice touch.  Some things SSDS just does better. 

  My criticisms are minor.  The single sandcaster and nuclear damper seem
a bit light for defensive armament, esp. given the strength of the lasers. 
The sensors also seem a bit light for an exploratory vessal, though I'd be
open to arguement there.  No meson screen, but since it's a cheap ship why
bother?  I also didn't see any specific reference to crew security and
health other than the sickbay - may just have missed it. 

  Twenty percent of the hull is devoted to cargo, and the cost of cargo
space is a bit over 2 MCr per ton - this is a stat I'll be calculating for
all ships as a rough guide to economics. 

  I have two design questions.  First, why two years of fuel for the main
power plant?  What advantage does that have?

  Second, does SSDS allow for significant power savings?  I did a rough
power calculation using QSDS components, and I got about 500 MW of
consumption (not counting the fuel purification system).  Are you not
powering everything simultaneously, or are SSDS designs just more power
saving?

  Overall, a nice design as far as specs go, but it's a bit dull.  It
needs a little something to push it over the top and give it the Familee
Spoofulam touch.  Maybe some security robots with Fusion+ powered chain
saws roaming the corridors...yeah, that's the ticket! 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:00:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Animal Encounters

> I was wondering since the T4 rule book doesn't explain combat
> for animal encouters.... can someone give me idea's oh how
> to run the encounters.. when they attack.... i need to figure
> out the hit numbers they need to attack the party... so any help would be
> great!


I posted on this a few days ago.  The TNE book has some good 
guidlines on developing target numbers for animals.  You can figure 
it out in TNE form and then convert it to T4.


But, if you are using the KBv2.0 task system, I found a much easier 
way.  There are two simple steps.

(1)  Figure out what the animal would need to hit under standard CT 
rules  (8+ throw, add modifiers).

(2)  Then, invert this number so that rolling lower is better.  




Example:  Your CT animal needs 8+ to hit, but he has teeth +2, 
making it 6+ on the standard CT two dice.

You invert this so that you need to roll low instead of roll high for 
success.  Our 6+ becomes 8- for T4 (KBv2.0).

And that's it.  That's your target number.  

Why?  Because animals 
attack at contact range most of the time (although Book 1, on pg. 
152, indicates that some animal weapons can attack from very short 
range.).

Looking at the Combat Range chart on page 61 of Book 1, we see that 
an attack from contact range carries an Easy difficulty.

In KBv2.0, Easy throws are done with 2 D6--the same as CT animal 
attack throws.  So, converting animal attack target numbers to KBv2.0 
is a simple matter of inverting the target number established by the 
CT rules.

This method would not work with either the T4 or the T4-Revised task 
systems because neither of these uses 2 D6 at contact range.  Using 
the same target number with the lower amount of dice (1.5 D and 1 D 
respectively) would give the animal a bigger percentage chance to hit 
than the original CT rules intended.

This was a surprise benefit to using KBv2.0 that I discovered, and 
I'm planning some animal encounters for my group next session.

If you are not using KBv2.0, too bad for you.  I'd still suggest 
using the target number established in CT as a starting point.  Once 
you have that number, it would be easy (because you are only using 
two dice) to figure the % chance of success.  Then I'd try to 
approximate that % based on the system you are using.

For example, let's say you are using T4-Revised, where Easy task 
rolls are done with 1 D6 (or are automatic).  Using the CT animal 
target number we generated above 6+ (8+ to hit, modified by teeth 
+2), it's easy to figure out that the animal has a 72.22% chance of 
making it.

Figuring 72% of 1 D6, you can either pick a target number of 4 
(66.67%) or 5 (83.33%) as the animal's target number--depending on 
how generous you are feeling that day.

If you are using the standard T4 task system where Easy tasks are 
thrown with 1.5 D, the calculation becomes somewhat harder due to the 
half die.

Using my trusty conversion chart that I made while designing KBv2.0, 
I see that your target number for the standard T4 task system (Easy 
tasks = 1.5 D) should be either 6- (66.67%) or 7- (83.33%).



With regard to animals with weapons that can attack from Very Short 
range (as described on page 152 of Book 1), I make a judgement call 
here.

I base all of my animal attack target numbers on contact range unless 
I feel that the animal can hit a character from more than 3 meters 
(long tentacles, shooting spines, or whatever).

If I do feel that the animal has this long range attack ability, I 
will use the CT target number as a base, figure their % chance to 
hit, and approximate that percentage on 3 D6 (The combat table tells 
us that attacks from Very Short range are an Average proposition, and 
Average tasks in KBv2.0 are done with 3 D6) just like I suggested to 
do with the T4-Standard and the T4-Revised task systems.

This is the exception, though, rather than the rule.  As I said, most 
animals attack from less than 3 meters.

Anyway, this is how I've been handling animal attacks--at least until 
I see in T4-Revised how they are going to change it.

Hope this helps.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:13:06 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Map needed

At 12:29 PM 5/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a map of Lunion subsector in .GIF format?  I need it for
>an imagemap for my Lunion pages.. any help would be apprciated.

Cancel that, Kirsten showed me how to lift the map from a source I already
have.

It's nice being married to someone who can make the computer behave...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 12:56:00 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

At 09:59 AM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:13:39 -0800
>>From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)

>I thought that the Imperial army formations had only cadres as permanent
features, and 
>called up the reserves to fill out the units in time of war.  Thus an
Imperial 
>army division would have a divisional headquarters unit, fully staffed; a
regimental or 
>battalion headquarters unit, fully staffed, for each regiment or
battalion; company 
>officers; a lot of senior NCOs; and a unit dedicated to training the
reserves.  The 
>reserves would of course meet for regular exercises.  

The problem here is that this kind of scheme only works at the highest
levels.. Corps and above.  Below that, you need to be an integrated team,
and know the capabilities of the officers and soldiers.  If Colonel Alfa is
a bit cautious in the attack, you don't want his regiment to go into
pursuit, give that assignment to Colonel Bravo.  These are the sorts of
things you learn over a period of years.
>
>--Glenn
>
>
>

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:18:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: [Noise] Anyone going to Dragon*Con???

Anyone out there planning on attending Dragon*Con here in Atlanta this
June?  Just wondering, as I'd like to meet face-to-face with the people I
"talk" with on these lists...

Thanks.  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:20:59 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Animal Target Numbers a snap with KBv2.0!

Want to have mean and nasty critter attack your PCs?  

Disgusted because there are no rules for determining animal target 
numbers in Book 1?  

Waiting for T4-Revised to come out and fix that problem for you?



Well, wait no further...that is if you are using KBv2.0!



Recently, I wanted to implement animal encounters into my game, so I 
set about to figure out target numbers for them.  My goal was to come 
up with a workable stop gap measure until I saw the rules in 
T4-Revised.

I was surprised at the coincidence that I found and at how easy it is 
to develop target numbers for animals if you are using KBv2.0.

Like all my rules, this is a simple fix to the problem--a game 
mechanic designed to change a minimum amount of "official" rules and 
fit seemlessly into the existing rules set.



Here's how it works in two simple steps:

(1)  Create your animals as per the T4/CT rules (which are basically 
the same rules set).  Note the CT target number generated.

(2)  Invert the CT target number for the animal so that lower is 
better.  For example, if the animal needs 8+ to hit in CT, the same 
animal will need 6- for T4. 



That's it.  That's all there is to it!

Why it works:

The CT system uses two dice.   A roll of 8+ is required for animals 
to hit under those rules.  This target number may be modified due to 
the animals weapons.  For example, teeth +2 give a +2 DM to hit.  In 
other words, the target number is reduced from 8+ to 6+, giving the 
animal a better chance to hit.

Page 152 of Book 1 shows us that animals attack from either contact 
or very short range.  Common sense tells us that most animals will 
attack from less than three meters because they have to be close 
enought to bite/stick/club you (or whatever), so it is clear that 
most animals attack from contact range.

Looking at the combat range table on page 61 of Book 1, we see that 
attacks from contact range require an Easy task throw.

In KBv2.0, Easy task throws are done with 2 D6.  This is exactly the 
same amount of dice required in CT for an animal to make an 
attack--except in T4, lower is better.

Therefore, all you need to do is invert your CT animal target numbers 
so that lower is better.  Use T4 Book 1, CT rules, or even Supplement 
2:  Animal Encounters to develop your animals, then simply invert 
the numbers.

That's all you need to do.  The percentage chance to hit is the same 
in T4 as it was in CT, so animals are just as tough or weak as they 
were in CT.

The two systems convert easily.


And that's pretty much it, unless your animal can attack from greater 
than 3 meters out.

Note that T4-Standard and T4-Revised do not have 2D Easy throws 
(they use 1.5 D and 1 D respectively), so in order to come up with 
target numbers for animals under those systems, you'd have to (this 
is only one way) use the transposing percentages system I describe 
below.  Trust me, that's not an easy fix to the problem.








================================================================
What about animal attacks from very short range?

Very short range is up to 15 meters in T4, and, to tell you the 
truth, I can't see too many animals being able to attack somebody 
from that far out.

On page 152 if Book 1, it definitely indicates that some claw, hoove, 
stinger, and thrasher attacks can attack from that far out.  I use 
common sense with regard to what it says on this page.  I can see an 
animal with very long tentacles or a long tail with a stinger on the 
end of it, or even some sort of flinging spine, but it is harder for 
me to see an animal that can reach 15 meters with its claws or 
hooves.

When I'm creating animals, and I see a possibility for the animal to 
be able to attack a target 15 meters away, I make a judgement call.

If that judgement call is that the animal can attack that far out, I 
still figure the animals target number for CT (as indicated for step 
1 above).  Then what I do is figure the animal's percentage chance to 
hit on two dice (for CT).  Then I transpose this percentage to a 
different target number using 3 D6 (dice code for KBv2.0 Average 
rolls--attacks from very short range require an average difficulty 
task throw) so that the animal's chance to hit under KBv2.0 is about 
the same as it was under CT.

Like I said above, this is the exception--most animals attack from 
contact range, and they won't require this math step.

Transposition example:

CT:  Animal needs 6+ to hit (8+ to hit modified by thrasher +2).

Math:  6+ on 2 D6 has a 72.22% chance of succeeding.

KBv2.0:  Figuring 72.22% of 3 D6 and converting to the closest whole 
number, the target number for T4 (KBv2.0) would be 12-, which is a 
74.07% proposition on 3 D6.

Unless you have a chart, like I do, this step is a headache.  I 
suggest using the above rules and keeping your animals in contact 
range for their attacks--at least until T4-Revised comes out, and we 
can see how they are handleing these 15 meter animal attacks.

Use common sense.  Most animals do not have the ability to attack 
from that far away anyway.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 97 17:49:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

This was an _excellent_ start on a long article that is begging
to appear in Freelance Traveller.  Kenji, you've _got_ to finish
it up, and correct the major problem that I spotted in the
_Reproduction_ section.

That problem is:  If mechanical assistance for implantation is
required, how did the race survive the period between the
destruction of Ancient civilization (assuming that they were
servants of the Ancients) and the rise of their own
technological civilization?  Either there's some way around the
mechanical assistance problem, or self-fertilization is
successful at at least a replacement rate.

My suggestion:  Make them not need the mechanical assistance
under any circumstances; from a strictly external physical
viewpoint, make them hermaphrodites; genetically, there are no
gender-selection chromosomes as there are in most human races.
The low fertility and rare self-fertilization is OK; the
physical change I suggest doesn't need to affect that.

While the [revised-as-above] Sayat may be physically capable of
performing the "reproductive dance" with other humans, because
of the extreme genetic drift, such unions are not productive of
offspring.  Also, the Sayat tend not to find such liaisons
attractive (because non-Sayat don't "smell right").


==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  STRESSED spelled backwards is DESSERTS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:49:02 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: How far can a PC Run?

So, you've got the deck plans all laid out on the table.  You've got 
counters (or a piece of graph paper with dots on it, or whatever) 
laid out so that your players can see the spatial relationships 
within the room.

And then one player says, "I want my character to run as fast as he 
can to get away from this guy", pointing to the big burly NPC that is 
about to clobber the PC in hand to hand combat.

The question posed to you, as a GM would see it, is how far can the 
PC run in 6 seconds?

Well, there' an easy way to find that out.  You flip to page 52 of 
Book 1 and look at the paragraph on running.  It says there that a 
character can run up to 30 meters in one combat round.

I think that's a good general rule to be used for general purposes, 
but in the example above, a few feet may matter.

Everyone knows that all humans don't run the same.  I'm definitely 
not a runner, and many of my friends could catch me or leave me way 
behind in an instant.

What I'm getting to here is a little house rule I've developed 
that you can use when you really want to see how far a PC can move in 
one combat round.

I'm not advocating you use it all the time--use the general movement 
rate in the book for most applications, but you may want a more 
individualized movement rate calculation when you plotting movement 
on graph paper or half inch deck plans.

So, here's the rule:

A character can run (Str + Dex + End) x 1.5 meters per combat round.

He can trot or jog at 2/3 that value.  

He can walk at 1/2 that value.

He can crawl at 1/3 that value.



The Test.

Running takes into account all three of a character's physical 
attributes.  Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance all play a part in 
running.  That's why they are included in the calculation.

An average character should be able to move the average distances 
reported in Book 1 on page 52.  Therefore an average character should 
run about 30 meters in one round.

Let's do the calculation:
(7+7+7) x 1.5 = 31.5 meters/round

The book says characters can walk about 15 meters in one round.  

Taking the 1/2 value above for the average character, we get 15.75 
meters.
31.5 / 2 = 15.75 meters/round.



As you can see, this formula works out well when compared with the 
average values in the book.  

Implementing this system when you are in the middle of a combat, 
figuring out all the details, may add some more realism to your game.

I know it has for mine.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement

> Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

Trust Mark to ruthlessly disambiguate all my carefully laid ambiguities. :)
Seriously, these are great comments, and reassuring as well...this was my
first go at writing THUDDD specs, and I'm pleased to find that I seem to
have neither over- nor under-constrained the design.  Now, onward to
specific comments...

> > The vessel to be produced is an exploratory trader.  The design is being
> > commissioned by the Imperial government (through the Ministry of
> > Commerce); their intent is that vessels of this class will be purchased
> > and operated by megacorporations and possibly smaller speculative
> > enterprises.  Subsidies are under consideration. 
> 
>   The exact nature of the rules of armament for a ship purchased by
> corporations rather than the Imperial government is the subject of another
> of my posts - I tend to think that missile batteries controlled by MFDs,
> bay, and spinal weapons are probably not allowed for civilian purchasers
> (though QSDS 1.5 is perhaps deliberatly unclear on the matter).

This is a deliberate and useful ambiguity, perhaps so in QSDS, and
definitely in this THUDDD.  What armamemts are permitted to what
categories of owners under what circumstances is an essential 'flavor'
element in a campaign, and one which can easily be modified by each GM
without doing violence to the remainder of the standard background.  As
such, I left this door more or less open. 

As a suggestion (non-binding, unofficial, use at your own risk), it might
well be the case that, for a vessel with this high-risk mission (in the
Imperial interest and possibly with Imperial backing), the Imperium might
be inclined to license 'military' armaments/equipment to a greater degree
than would be enjoyed by an intra-Imperial freighter.  Thus, I would
suggest that minor military hardware not be disallowed, but perhaps
slightly discouraged.  The meanings of 'minor' and 'slightly', and
evaluation of the merits of this argument as a whole, are left to the
esteemed judges.

> > * Operation for 1+ year away from starport facilities
> >   (repair, resupply, recreation, etc.)
> 
>   I'd say this means at minimum an engineering shop and a sickbay, plus a
> vehicle shop if small craft are carried.  Some tonnage devoted to an
> entertainment area would also be nice.  I'm not sure what "resupply" in
> the above notation means - maybe extra cargo space for enough food and
> other consumables?

"Resupply" is another deliberate ambiguity.  Some GMs will presume that
the vessel's crew will likely be able to forage for food at almost every
stop en route; others may make human-edible foodstuffs relatively rare.
Similar questions apply to other consummables (other than very easily
found commodities like water and atmospheric gasses).  One interesting
category of 'consummables' is spare parts.  I'm not sure how much detail
people want to (or can) go into here, but I wanted the issue at least in
designers' minds.

> > * Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft
> 
>   What exactly this means I am not sure - does it refer to similarly sized
> trading ships, similarly sized warships, or similarly sized system
> defense boats?  For example, I'd guess that most of the recent designs
> for patrol cruisers would make short work of a 500-600T trading ship that
> had any significant free cargo space.
> 
>   The key word here is probably "defense" - not that you should be able to
> fight back, but that you should be able to survive long enough to get to
> jump point.  Got to protect that cargo, after all.  Thus, I would tend to
> favor a design with lots of sandcasters, dampers, and other defensive
> strategies, but not with lots of lasers or missiles.

Again, deliberate ambiguity here, but your thinking more or less parallels
mine in terms of what this might mean.  Others may intepret this
differently.

> > Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.
> 
>   Do I detect a hint of my own influence here?  This clearly refers to
> meson screens - the exact level of screening is unclear to me, though note
> that under 1000T desgins have an advantage here, since they get a bonus
> for the same sized equipment.  

You do indeed. :)

> > The purpose of this vessel is exploratory trade, well beyond the Imperial
> > frontier.  As such, normal economic analysis based on intra-Imperial trade
> > profitability does not apply well to this vessel.  However, as with any
> > trader, a higher percentage of hull volume devoted to cargo implies higher
> > profits -- *if* the requirements above are also met.  The same comments
> > apply to the vessel's price.
> 
>   This is what makes this an interesting contest - every capability you
> add in reduces the cargo you can carry.  Balance is what will carry the
> day here, I think - keep it inexpensive, but not too stripped down. 

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what people come up with.  I (er,
Ce Acatl Corporation) will be doing a design as well, which I'll post to
the list after the entry deadline, just for kicks.

> > * Valid design systems are SSDS and QSDS 1.5.
> 
>   Do we know if all problems with these systems are fixed?  There still
> seems to be some confusion about some points, like laser batteries.

I think there are still a few open issues.  One question I have is whether
multiple sandcasters can be grouped into a battery run from an MFD, rather
than requiring one gunner per caster.

> > * QSDS designs may use components from non-QSDS sources, if these
> >   components are purchased without the 25% QSDS discount.  Most
> >   notably, hulls from the Huge Table of Hulls fall into the non-
> >   QSDS category.
>  
>   Thanks for the clarification - this makes good sense to me.

Thanks.  Any strong objections on this?

By the way, I'm putting rules clarifications like this onto the main
THUDDD page as they come up, so designers might want to take a look there
now and then to see if anything new has been added.

> > Ladies and gentlemen, start your spreadsheets! :)
> 
>   Boy do I feel primitive - it's all paper and pencil here, with a
> calculator for the totals at the end.

Long before VisiCalc came along, a 'spreadsheet' was a big flat ruled
sheet of paper, used by accountants wielding pencils.  So, in other words,
don't feel left out. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:30:25 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Position on worlds ?

I'm doing a writeup of one of my worlds in my
Terran Confederation setting and wanted to add
a position for the planets starport, when I
ran into problem. How do you give places positions
on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
some specified place? How would you know where this
place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
the longitude? Any thoughts.

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:05:52 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>This was an _excellent_ start on a long article that is begging
>to appear in Freelance Traveller.  Kenji, you've _got_ to finish
>it up, and correct the major problem that I spotted in the
>_Reproduction_ section.

Hey, thanks for the feedback, and double thanks for the positive feedback!

>That problem is:  If mechanical assistance for implantation is
>required, how did the race survive the period between the
>destruction of Ancient civilization (assuming that they were
>servants of the Ancients) and the rise of their own
>technological civilization?  Either there's some way around the
>mechanical assistance problem, or self-fertilization is
>successful at at least a replacement rate.

Well, this might be taken as strong evidence that they weren't seeded by
the Ancients, but are spinoffs of early Solomani colonists.  I'm trying to
not specify this, but leave it open for people to pick as (and if) they
like.

As far as the 'mechanical assistance' goes, I'm not talking about anything
fancy here, no test-tube baby stuff -- just a variation on the infamous
'turkey baster' approach.  Low-tech in the extreme; like maybe TL-2 stuff?
If the Vilani could surive on a planet where nothing was edible without
chemical processing, a little thing like this seems like child's play.
After all, if you screw up as a Sayat, you just don't have a kid that time
around; if you're Vilani and screw up, you starve, get sick, or are
poisoned.

The idea was to keep gross anatomical changes to the Sayat minimal -- no
ovipositors.  I wanted them to be clearly genetically engineered but not
necessarily *efficiently* engineered.  Hence stuff like the non-compact
frame in a cold environment, and the inability of their eyes to deal with
strong (local!) daylight.  I'd like their origins to be a bit of a
*mystery* instead of one more off-the-shelf "300,000 year old ant-farm that
Grandfather left behind" / "Solomani bio-fascist {master race, slave race,
toy race} gone their own way."  Hell, send your PCs out to investigate.
Have some Hiver meddle with 'em for reasons unknown.  Have the SolSec take
an unseemly interest in their conclusions.  Have them wake up some mutant
Droyne from hibernation.  Have the Sayat start shooting at everone.  It'll
be fun.

In RPG terms, besides the Traveller background, my guiding vision has been
"Macho Women With Guns" meets "Call of Cthulhu," I suppose.  In Alpha
Complex.

(Do I qualify for a position in the Grand Heresiarchy?)

>My suggestion:  Make them not need the mechanical assistance
>under any circumstances; from a strictly external physical
>viewpoint, make them hermaphrodites; genetically, there are no
>gender-selection chromosomes as there are in most human races.

Not sure I follow you here -- *do* you mean gender here, or sex?  Yeah,
they're all 46-XX in terms of their genetic sex; like I say, I'd rather
keep anatomical changes to a minimum to give that jerry-rigged impression.


>While the [revised-as-above] Sayat may be physically capable of
>performing the "reproductive dance" with other humans, because
>of the extreme genetic drift, such unions are not productive of
>offspring.

How delicately put <G>.  Yeah, that's what I had in mind -- something along
the lines that the modifications made to the protein receptors on the Sayat
ova, in order to permit ovum-ovum fertilization, is far enough removed from
other human molecular biology that there's no chance of fertilization with
sperm or non-Sayat ova.  The little critters just can't connect up.  It's a
little harder for Sayat ova to manage, too; but sometimes there's a glitch
and two from the same person will spontaneously co-fertilize (if that's a
word).  Any biologists care to clean up my doubletalk for me, please?

> Also, the Sayat tend not to find such liaisons
>attractive (because non-Sayat don't "smell right").

Heh -- and equally or more likely, the Sayat might smell funny/bad to other
humans.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1288
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 6 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1289



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All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Position on worlds ?
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...
Re: Position on worlds?
Lexx - The dark zone
Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement
Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement (Weapons Restrictions)
Re: FSY's May THUDDD Entry
New interstellar trade system, part one
TNE tidbit
Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement (Weapons Restrictions)
Re: THUDDD Comments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:26:04 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

At 02:30 6/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>I'm doing a writeup of one of my worlds in my
>Terran Confederation setting and wanted to add
>a position for the planets starport, when I
>ran into problem. How do you give places positions
>on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
>to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
>some specified place? How would you know where this
>place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
>doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
>the longitude? Any thoughts.
>
>Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
>Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
>University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
>Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 
>
I've always tended (when it mattered) to assume that the 0 degree line
would run through the starport or the colony. The other likely line would
be through some terrian feature readily identifable from orbit by a scout
ship.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 97 22:27:29 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

On 05/05/97 at 04:49 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> The question posed to you, as a GM would see it, is how far can the  PC
> run in 6 seconds?

Ken, I'm doing it just a little differently.

Full out, Sprint is (Strength+Dexterity)*2

The average character can then run 28m/6sec, or 100m in 21.4
seconds. That's about average, I'd say.

A character with outstanding attributes, let's say 12 and 12, can run
48m/6sec, or 100m in 12.5 seconds.  That's close to world class, and a
15+15 would be...100m in 10 seconds.

How LONG a character can sprint at full speed is his Endurance!

Our average character can run 7 rounds, or 42 seconds, at full speed before
exhastion.  That's just less than 200m...and that's about right for the
average person.

Our *hunk* at 12, 12, 12, can run 72 seconds at 8 meters per second, or 576
meters!  This is Michael Johnson class.

Running is (Strength+Dexterity)

Mr Average (7,7) can run the 1500m in 10.7 minutes.

Ms Outstanding (12,12) can run the 1500m in 6.25 minutes.  Not world class,
but pretty darn good.

How Long they can run is Endurance*50, but this doesn't really scale all
that well now that I look at it. Maybe a power...

Jogging is 3/4 STR+DEX.

Walking is 1/2 STR+DEX.

If you want to push an outstanding character into Olympic class they would
have to develop specific *skills* to add to their raw speed. There *are*
techniques to sprinting, middle distance, and endurance running.

Anyway, I figure this out and put them on the Character Sheet. 

Oh yeah, remember to reduce END for the effort put out sprinting and
running.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 23:53:46 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...

Next game's on the 25th - I'll give it a try... We were trying to tie SF
somehow to one's skill level.  That is, the likelihood of SF is not only
related to task difficulty but also to skill of tester.  Good point, though
- - keep changes to the minimum acceptable!

At 08:34 PM 5/4/97 EST, Kenneth wrote:
 
>
>Bill, have you tried using 3 sixes as SF?  That's what I use with 
>KBv2.0, and the percentages aren't that bad (around 10% for 
>Impossible throws--less for the other categories).
><Snip etc.>



- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds?

> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:30:25 +0200 (MET DST)
> From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> 
> How do you give places positions
> on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
> to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
> some specified place? How would you know where this
> place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
> doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
> the longitude? Any thoughts.

As you suggest, latitude is easy to figure out.  A Solomani-derived
cartography scheme would define 'North' as the pole over which, when
looking back down at the planet, the planet appears to rotate
counterclockwise.

Longitude is much more arbitrary.  Any fixed point on the surface may be
defined as lying on the zero of longitude.  Here are some suggestions on
how the zero-longitude line might be chosen: 

* For tidally locked worlds, the zero will typically be through the
  subprimary point (the mean point, if there's significant libation).
  This is the convention used for locked moons in our own solar system.

* For worlds surveyed long before habitation, the zero might run through
  some prominent landmark, like the tallest mountain's peak.

* For worlds first mapped during colonization, the zero might run through
  the first colony's starport or a beacon near it.

* For worlds with significant amounts of surface water, the zero might be
  chosen so as to be 180 degrees away from a (nearly) pole-to-pole stretch
  of open ocean, thereby reducing dateline hassles.  (Incredibly, Earth
  lucked into this arrangement!)

As for finding the zero longitude line, you'd use either an ephemeris /
planetary database program coupled with your ship's sensors in the
wilderness, or navigational beacons and datafeeds in civilization.

Hope this helps!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 07:48:45 -0700
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Lexx - The dark zone

Hi lads!

Has anyone else, but Ken, seen this film?. I've seen the pilot to the
series in the german dubbed version.
YES, the acting is b-class.
YES, the whole thing looks cheap.
BUT - partially I like it for its weardness. It has a "David Lynch"-like
feeling to it, and if you don't take it too serious (or even
scientific), its big fun.
- -- 
Harald Budschedl                        Phone  ++43 732 70701723
Magistrat Linz/ADV                      Fax:                1555
Gruberstrasse 40-42          email: Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at
A4020 Linz / Austria                          http://www.linz.at

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:29:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...

> Next game's on the 25th - I'll give it a try... We were trying to tie SF
> somehow to one's skill level.  That is, the likelihood of SF is not only
> related to task difficulty but also to skill of tester. 

Yes, I played with this before I decided to go with the three sixes.  

You've basically got two problems with tieing SF to skill level.  
First, the higher skill level, the lower chance you want SF to be.

This is easy to do (like the way we did it) with SS, but with SF, you 
are talking about an inverse relation ship--higher skill level, lower 
target number.

This is hard to do in a simple, easy game machanic that doesn't bog 
down the game.

The second problem you have is that, even if you come up with an 
inverse number, your probabilities are going to get smaller the more 
dice you throw.

For instance, you just can't use some target number--say the number 
7, as your SF target number because the chance of rolling a 7 or less 
actually goes down the more dice you throw.

This is not the relationship you want with SF.  The chance for SF 
occurring should go up the harder a task gets--not the other way 
around.

It wouldn't make sense to have a 10% chance of rolling SF on an Easy 
task and have a 2% chance of roll it on an Impossible task.  The 
Impossible task should definitely carry a bigger chance of SF.

This is why I decided to use the 3 sixes approach--and not the target 
number 18.  18 can be rolled in many ways--depending on how many 
dice are thrown.  By using the 3 sixes option, this cuts down on the 
amount of times it can be rolled, and it has the added benefit of 
sending the SF % up the harder the task is.

Besides, this is the "official" rule, and it works with KBv2.0.  
For all of these reasons, this is why I decided to use it in KBv2.0 
as well.

Kenneth.

PS  Bill, did you check out the animal target number post for use 
with KBv2.0?  What a find!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:29:51 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

> > The question posed to you, as a GM would see it, is how far can the  PC
> > run in 6 seconds?
> 
> Ken, I'm doing it just a little differently.


Very good system, Eris!  I like your ideas too.

I can see how you figure them out first and put that info on the 
character sheet.  

Your way of doing it is definitely for the the detail oriented.  I 
think my way is more for those who don't usually use that type of 
detail, but can figure it out real quick in the middle of a combat 
round, if need be.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:44:01 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

I use 2 second gameturns. An unencumbered guy can run DEX+6 meters per turn
but has to roll 2D6 vs END to avoid tiring. A tired character has DEX
reduced by 3 (as well as all DEX based skills reduced 1 level). Tired
characters roll 1D6 less when running and if they fail their 1D6 roll vs
END they get Exhausted which reduces DEX by another 3, END by 3 and
disallows any actions requiring END rolls such as running. This is probably
of no use to you out there but=8A

Eris is right I think in that running speed is unaffected by END. END tells
you how long time you can run. The reason I don't include STR in running
speed is that I've never seen really high STR guys running much faster than
my mother:) The reason for that is muscle friction and mass (it might
actually have to do with the square cube law again). Also after a certain
STR your ability in lifting multiples of your own weight goes down when
adding more muscles, that's also why no climbers are very muscled. Maybe
you should cap the advantages of STR to 10 or so is no speed bonus (or even
speed penalties) above STR 10).

Just my 0.5 Kronor


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:19:47 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement

Dr. Mark Clark wrote:

>   High G is not useful, but I think M2 is what one should shoot for,
> rather than M1.  Margin of safety in landings on High G planets, for one
> thing.  If the main ship is designed to wilderness refuel, the structure
> would be profitably rated for higher than the thrusters.

QSDS hull are built with 1G contra gravity lifters for just these reasons. 
Keep in mind that a 1G rating for contra grav isn't an absolute rating but a
relative rating (i.e., a 1G contra grav on a world with a gravity 1.5Gs
actually produces 1.5Gs of thrust).  However, SSDS ships install contra grav
as a separate system.  1G of contra grav used with 1G thrusters allows a ship
to make planetfall and not worry about what the strength of the local gravity
field is, and increases the safety margin for gas giant refueling
considerably.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement (Weapons Restrictions)

  Well, nice to see that I hit the nail on the head as far as ambiguity
goes - I'll bet this reflects the fact that the committee in the Imperial
bureau responsible for writing the description didn't really know what the
hell they wanted, so they wrote a description that would get them all
sorts of entries. 

  As I was reading the section on weaponry again, it struck me that we
have at least one example of Imperial policy in this matter (though from
CT and the late Third Imperium).  You may recall that one of the Azhanti
High Lightning-class was bought in a jiggered deal by a private company
(Tukera?  I hate having all my Traveller stuff in Oregon!) where they took
delivery outside the borders of the Imperium.  The ship could never
re-enter the Imperium, since it still had all its weaponry, including that
big honking spinal mount.  Since the ship was used for trading with the
Vargr, this was no bad thing - kept the natives respectful, so to speak.

  The question then becomes when this policy came into being.  I'd argue
it predates the Third Imperium - probably goes back to the First, for that
matter.  Governments like to have a monopoly on extreme methods of
violence, especially when it comes to things that threaten trade.  For the
early Third Imperium, this is probably even more of an issue, due to the
desire to control piracy.

  Thus, I'd guess that owning military-grade weaponry in the Imperium
would be limited to world governments and the Imperial Navy, with the Navy
keeping a damn close eye on world governments to make sure they are not
fronts for pirates.  Thus, system defense boats will get the latest tech -
but vessals capable of jump would be tightly restricted.

  Now, I'm sure the average Megacorp could figure ways around this in a
heartbeat.  Operating entirely outside the boundaries of the Imperium is
one method - another might be to get a ship designated as a naval
"reserve" ship that could be called up in time of war.

  Here is a tentative list of military-grade equipment, divided into three
catagories:  Unrestricted (all vessels can legaly mount these), restricted
(special permits or regulations apply), and forbidden (only Imperial
military ships or SDBs can use them).  I'd be interested in comments as to
how well each item fits in the catagory assigned.

UNRESTRICTED
  Military Control Systems (just radiation hardened versions of civilian
			    technology)
  Communications Systems 
  Civilian Laser Batteries (essentially +0 rated systems)
  Sandcasters
  Meson Screens
  Nuclear Dampers

RESTRICTED
  Military Sensor Systems (this is open to interpretation, but the Basic
			   and Improved packages from QSDS are described
			   as not including LADAR for range-finding and 
			   target designation - I could see that
			   technology being restricted)
  Military Laser Turrets and Barbettes*
  Missile Turrets and Barbettes without MFDs*

  * According to QSDS, most (NOT all) planets allow non-military
shipowners to install these systems

FORBIDDEN
  Missile Batteries (missile systems with MFDs)
  Bay Weapons
  Spinal Weapons


  Most of the above seems reasonable, aside from the fact that MFDs are
allowed for laser instalations but not for missiles.  This may be a law
left over from TL-10 times, when lasers were not dangerous at long range.
For example, a TL-10 laser bay in the QSDS system is 50T, needs 125 MW,
costs 104MCr, and is only rated at (+3)1/2-0-0-0.  At TL-12, you can get
that same rating with a single turret that is 5.3T, uses 29.8MW, and costs
only 27MCr (gravitic focussing is great).  If I were the Imperium, I'd
forbid MFDs for lasers as well - QSDS has laser batteries that fit in a
50T space that do (+4)1/9-7-5-3, better than a 100T TL-11 PA-Gun!

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:57:48 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: FSY's May THUDDD Entry

Dr Mark Clark wrote:

>
>  Man, do I feel guilty - I may have done something I thought was
>impossible: get Familiee Spoofulam to design something dull!  I love their
>stuff, honest I do - Joe Shugli, Generica's CEO, has a collection of their
>stuff out back he likes to fool around with on slow days (Boom! Boom!
>BOOM!!).  I guess I was too harsh in my comments about their last entry -
>sorry about that!


	Don't sweat it...  I planned it for player use in this upcoming
game I'm working on.  Thus the absence of spinal mounts and 6G T-Plate 3G
Heplar M-drives, and the Captain's 'Fresher not being mounted right up in
the nose cone with panoramic windows :).

	A corollary to GMing rule #1 ("Thou shalt not let the players have
characters wierder or more evil than the bad guys") ought to be "Thou shalt
not let the players have bigger spinal mounts than the bad guys"...  I
would never have let my players have a Bludgeon to themselves; the
possibilities are just too nightmarish :).

	If you recall, I did do some normalish designs for the Far Trader;
it hurts but I can keep myself under control sometimes :).

[snip]>
>  My criticisms are minor.  [snip]I also didn't see any specific reference
>to >crew security and
>health other than the sickbay - may just have missed it.


	The ship's locker is full of Famille Spofulam Armaments latest
toys?  20mm derringers and so forth?  Giant hyrdaulic pistons under floor
panels that slam them into the ceiling with alarming force?  Smart
doorknobs that discharge 50 Mw for 5 seconds if their sensors don't
recognize your handprint?  Cleaning robots designed to sneak into
hijackers' quarters late at night after they're asleep and pour drano into
their ears and nostrils?  Coffeemaker that'll only make instant for
anybody's who's not a cremember?  Entertainment system that'll only play
the same episode of "We _all_ love Luucii" (at _FULL_ volume unless you
enter in a PIN?

	The possibilities are endless :).


>
>  Twenty percent of the hull is devoted to cargo, and the cost of cargo
>space is a bit over 2 MCr per ton - this is a stat I'll be calculating for
>all ships as a rough guide to economics.


	Good benchmark.  Something I'm planning on using when rating the
designs is PC group affordability; can a small group of traders band
together and buy one?  From a game perspective, it makes more sense to have
something your PC's could own; something they don't cuts down on their
freedom and so forth...


>
>  I have two design questions.  First, why two years of fuel for the main
>power plant?  What advantage does that have?


	Misjump into ye olde interstellar boondockes.  Note the 10 LB's
(although that might not be enough if you're carrying a full load of
gunners (which would be unlikely)).  If you misjump, the safety card in the
back pocket of every seat tells the passengers to don lifejackets and
proceed to jump into the fuel purification plant, while the crew start
programming the 'puter to aim the ship at the nearest GG and floor it up to
frac-cee speeds (& back down again) while they nap.

>
>  Second, does SSDS allow for significant power savings?  I did a rough
>power calculation using QSDS components, and I got about 500 MW of
>consumption (not counting the fuel purification system).  Are you not
>powering everything simultaneously, or are SSDS designs just more power
>saving?


	Yes.  Apparently QSDS folds a lot of stuff into the hull's power
requirements and adds some more just for good luck.  SSDS designs seem to
consistently come out requiring less power.


>
>  Overall, a nice design as far as specs go, but it's a bit dull.  It
>needs a little something to push it over the top and give it the Familee
>Spoofulam touch.  Maybe some security robots with Fusion+ powered chain
>saws roaming the corridors...yeah, that's the ticket!

	Don't give me any ideas :).


R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 06:42:11 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: New interstellar trade system, part one

The trade system in Merchant Prince/T4 doesnt work. It doesnt scale 
- - lo-tech worlds have nothing that hi-tech worlds will buy (that -1 DM per 
TL difference is a real killer when you have a base margin of 20% or less)
, but have buckets of Imperial Credits to purchase hi-tech imports. All 
this Imperial Aid and Dulinor still shot Strephon over insufficient 
Imperial aid to poor memeber worlds ?

OK. Tables of canon facts coming up ... Exchange Rates (scaled for a TL12 
Imperial credit) and per capita income in Imperial Credits (both extracted 
from Striker).


Exchange Rates against the Imperial Credit

	A	B	C	D	E	X

C	1.00	0.89	0.85	0.80	0.70	-
	
B	0.85	0.80	0.70	0.64	0.57	-

A	0.70	0.64	0.57	0.50	0.43	0.43

9	0.57	0.50	0.43	0.35	0.30	0.30

8	0.43	0.35	0.30	0.21	0.15	0.15

7	0.30	0.21	0.15	0.11	0.08	0.08

6	-	0.11	0.08	0.06	0.05	0.05

5	-	-	0.05	0.03	0.01	0.01


OK, before we hit the per capita income table, check the implications 
for trade. On the supply side, obsolete starships get cheaper. The 
Long John class of TL11 transports will sell for 85% of it's cost 
in Imperial Credits, thus reducing it's monthly payments by about 15%. 
On the demand side, the same thing built on a low-tech 
world will cost less in Imperial Credits - possibly enough to pay 1000 
Imperial Credits per parsec per ton in shipping. For example, if you 
are recruiting a Home Guard on a TL10, Starport C world, you might buy 
a heap of TL9 military equipment from a nearby starport C, TL9 world, 
because you can buy more laser rifles etc with the same amount of 
tax revenue (one C-A credit buys 1.32 C-9 credits).


Per Capita income in 1000s of TL12 Imperial Credits


	A	B	C	D	E	X

C	16.00	14.24	13.60	12.80	11.20	-

B	11.40	11.20	 9.80	 8.96	 7.98	-

A	 8.40	 7.58	 6.84	 6.00	 5.16	5.16

9	 5.70	 5.00	 4.30	 3.50	 3.00	3.00

8	 3.44	 2.80	 2.40 	 1.68	 1.20	1.20

7	 1.80	 1.26	 0.90	 0.66	 0.48	0.20

6	 -	 0.44	 0.32	 0.22	 0.20 	0.20

5	 -	 - 	 0.10	 0.06	 0.03 	0.03

Multiply by 1.6 for Rich worlds, 1.4 for Industrial, 1.2 for 
Agricultural and 0.8 for each of Poor, Non-Industrual and
Non-Agricultural.

Hmmm, your average citizen on Sylea makes KCr16 per year ... 
not too many of them will sign up for 5 terms in the Navy and 
a pension of one-quarter of that. OTOH someone from Nowheresville
in the boonies is going to go "4000 credits a year ? I'd like
to see that". At a guess, many of the career Imperial Navy officers 
aregoing to be independantly wealthy landed types, and most of the
long-term NCO types are going to be from dirtball worlds out in
the provinces. Add a bunch of people signing up for a term to see
the galaxy and do their patriotic duty, and you have the IN.

Also, check the steep rise in per capita income from TL5 to TL8 ...
about x40 income. This is one hell of an incentive for megacorporations
to build up low tech, previuosly isolated worlds on favourable terms
for the world - ten percent of a TL8 world's revenue is more than 
100% of the revenue from a TL5 world.

It's pretty clear that most commodities are not going to be traded 
between the stars, and most people are not going to travel either.

However, luxury goods, some capital goods, some non-locally produced
but essential goods and military goods are going to be traded,
becasue of their high value per ton. If it costs a megacredit per ton
at source and double that at market, you could carry it 200 parsecs and
still make a profit. Likewise, if you make a megacredit a year from your
estates, then Cr80 000 to travel 8 parsecs for a hunting trip isnt 
going to faze you (the 6 weeks or so stuck in space may, however).

Next installment will try to actually quantify the trade from and to a
world, given a UPP and some other data ...


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:29:36 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: TNE tidbit

Just a small note for those of you who have been speculating about all the
TNE details GDW never had time to  release. I was browsing _Challenge_ #69
and noticed the following in Dave Nielsen's list of really cool stuff TNE 
will have: "...We've got emperors thatwon't stay dead...".

I don't know if the plural was mere hyperbole, but I think it highly likely
that Lucan was going to be alive (in some way) behind that black curtain.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:34:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement (Weapons Restrictions)

>  As I was reading the section on weaponry again, it struck me that we
>have at least one example of Imperial policy in this matter (though from
>CT and the late Third Imperium).  You may recall that one of the Azhanti
>High Lightning-class was bought in a jiggered deal by a private company
>(Tukera?  I hate having all my Traveller stuff in Oregon!) where they took
>delivery outside the borders of the Imperium.  The ship could never
>re-enter the Imperium, since it still had all its weaponry, including that
>big honking spinal mount.  Since the ship was used for trading with the
>Vargr, this was no bad thing - kept the natives respectful, so to speak.

Oberlindes lines was the sneaky company that bought the Azhanti. Sounded a
lot like a player character among the GDW to me (players tend to do these
things you know)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:19:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement
> 
> > From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> 
> > > * Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft
> > 
> >   What exactly this means I am not sure - does it refer to similarly sized
> > trading ships, similarly sized warships, or similarly sized system
> > defense boats?  For example, I'd guess that most of the recent designs
> > for patrol cruisers would make short work of a 500-600T trading ship that
> > had any significant free cargo space.
> > 
> >   The key word here is probably "defense" - not that you should be able to
> > fight back, but that you should be able to survive long enough to get to
> > jump point.  Got to protect that cargo, after all.  Thus, I would tend to
> > favor a design with lots of sandcasters, dampers, and other defensive
> > strategies, but not with lots of lasers or missiles.

I would really like someone to put some ships through some combat sequences
to see if these defences actually work... The basic ship combat system in the 
T4 rulebook is pretty deadly - a few hits and *poof* you've probably lost
a drive, power plant or you've plain old exploded. That's bad. If your
opponent has more maneuver than you, he'll hit eventually and then you're
SOL. 

Now, I'm not saying that "the best defence is a good offence" 100% of the
time, but I think we've got to do a dry run to see how things work out here...

> > > Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.
> > 
> >   Do I detect a hint of my own influence here?  This clearly refers to
> > meson screens - the exact level of screening is unclear to me, though note
> > that under 1000T desgins have an advantage here, since they get a bonus
> > for the same sized equipment.  
> 
> You do indeed. :)

???

I still think that if you don't have a meson gun, you don't need a meson
screen. I mean, this is like saying 'traders operating near the former
USSR should be equipped with anti-surface missile missles to ensure saftey
from former Soviet warships". I mean, really - a ship has to be really
stinking huge before it can mount a meson gun that does any appreciable amount
of damage. If you're protected from it - so what? The ship will be able to
outgun you with it's dozen of laser bays, laser batteries and PA bays.
And if it's deep meson sites you're worried about, I have two points:

a) deep meson sites can draw more power in one shot than the Sylean
navy will use in a year. OK, maybe not that much, but a lot. Your
crappy little meson screen will do little to stop it.

b) Why in the universe are you pissing off a planet so much that they're
firing their deep meson guns at you???? Stupid!

As always, if you want good defence, I say mount more armor. It will
absorb hits from any kind of weapon, laser, PA or meson and it requires
no power, gunners or MFDs. Sandcasters, yes, useful. Nuclear dampers, 
yes, useful, perhaps even necessary to transport certain types of 
nasty radioactive cargos which can be quite lucrative. But meson
screen? I'd mount advanced EMM before I'd mount a meson screen and
it's kinda silly to have a trader with super-advanced EMM (for the
most part).

> > > * Valid design systems are SSDS and QSDS 1.5.
> > 
> >   Do we know if all problems with these systems are fixed?  There still
> > seems to be some confusion about some points, like laser batteries.
> 
> I think there are still a few open issues.  One question I have is whether
> multiple sandcasters can be grouped into a battery run from an MFD, rather
> than requiring one gunner per caster.

I would assume that it's the same as for lasers, which is that once the
MFD is present, individual gunners are not required, although if your
MFD is taken out, you now have no one to handle the turrets... for a ship
trading on the frontier, having extra gunners would also mean having extra
hands to do cargo loading/unloading groundside, so I'd say to have a few
extra gunners figured into your crew counts... (besides, it means there's
extra "red shirts" to die during adventures. :) )

> Thanks.  Any strong objections on this?
> 
> By the way, I'm putting rules clarifications like this onto the main
> THUDDD page as they come up, so designers might want to take a look there
> now and then to see if anything new has been added.

I think James Dempsey has a partial SSDS eratta to his web page, but
it needs some extra items (like the gunnery crew stuff). It would be
_great_ to have all the SSDS corrections in one place.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1289
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1290



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: THUDDD Comments
Re: Position on worlds ?
Re: TNE tidbit
Re: TNE tidbit
Re: TNE tidbit
Re: THUDDD COmments
Re: The clever GM
Re: Position on worlds ?
QSDS 1.5
Re: IG Webpage
Darwin Stories
Leviathan Stats
Re: Flood of the Millenium
Re: How far can a PC Run?
What does a 1 G lifter, lift?
Re: New interstellar trade system, part one
Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...
Re: THUDDD Comments
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Emperor's Arsenal Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 17:30:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

>As always, if you want good defence, I say mount more armor. It will
>absorb hits from any kind of weapon, laser, PA or meson and it requires
>snip

Will armour really protect against meson gun hits? Is this T4 canon or am I
missing something?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 15:48:51 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

On Tue, 6 May 1997 02:30:25 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav
<tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> wrote:

>
>I'm doing a writeup of one of my worlds in my
>Terran Confederation setting and wanted to add
>a position for the planets starport, when I
>ran into problem. How do you give places positions
>on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
>to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
>some specified place? How would you know where this
>place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
>doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
>the longitude? Any thoughts.

There is mainly two ways around this.
One as Rupert suggests it, and the other is more related to predrawn
maps, using the IS form 21. The system I use with this map is as
following: N-yy/xx. N may also be S. That indicates if the certain
location is north or south of the equator. yy indicated in wich hex
row from 1 through 11. And xx indicates how far east you count in
hexes.

Of course this only helps to indentify the cities on the map without
having to write on the map itself. So if this isn't what you look for
Use Rupert's suggestion.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:02:23 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: TNE tidbit

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>Just a small note for those of you who have been speculating about all the
>TNE details GDW never had time to  release. I was browsing _Challenge_ #69
>and noticed the following in Dave Nielsen's list of really cool stuff TNE 
>will have: "...We've got emperors thatwon't stay dead...".
>
>I don't know if the plural was mere hyperbole, but I think it highly likely
>that Lucan was going to be alive (in some way) behind that black curtain.

        What a coincidence. That was my second personal theory about the
black curtain (the first being the return of Yaskoydray, to capture the
definitive slave: Virus).
        After all, Lucan's scientists "created" Virus, so they could have
some means of fighting it. And Virus was the result of Imperial Research
Station Omicron, but there could be more than that.... e.g., the scientists
of other station, who have been researching pocket universes, were able to
create a physical barrier protecting Lucan's safe area and beyond, let's say
the Core sector. The whole sector is now (TNE) a pocket universe where Lucan
is still fighting against the remnants of Virus. This universe is connected
through strange channels to the place in normal universe where Core sector
used to be, but this place, after the "incident", is a bit weird... normal
physical laws do not work anymore. Some Vampire fleets manage to go out from
time to time, capture more ships, and try to go back.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:14:14 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TNE tidbit

- -> Just a small note for those of you who have been speculating about all the
- -> TNE details GDW never had time to  release. I was browsing _Challenge_ #69
- -> and noticed the following in Dave Nielsen's list of really cool stuff TNE 
- -> will have: "...We've got emperors thatwon't stay dead...".
- -> 
- -> I don't know if the plural was mere hyperbole, but I think it highly likely
- -> that Lucan was going to be alive (in some way) behind that black curtain.
And maybe Strephon? Pleasepleasepleaseplease! Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:31:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TNE tidbit

> Just a small note for those of you who have been speculating about all the
> TNE details GDW never had time to  release. I was browsing _Challenge_ #69
> and noticed the following in Dave Nielsen's list of really cool stuff TNE 
> will have: "...We've got emperors thatwon't stay dead...".
> 
> I don't know if the plural was mere hyperbole, but I think it highly likely
> that Lucan was going to be alive (in some way) behind that black curtain.


That's one of the coolest Traveller things I've ever heard--and I 
don't even like the TNE setting.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:13:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD COmments

> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement (Weapons Restrictions)
> 
>   Well, nice to see that I hit the nail on the head as far as ambiguity
> goes - I'll bet this reflects the fact that the committee in the Imperial
> bureau responsible for writing the description didn't really know what the
> hell they wanted, so they wrote a description that would get them all
> sorts of entries. 

Heh, or, it would allow them to pick whichever ship had the biggest
pile of money in the cargo hold when the samples were delivered...

>   As I was reading the section on weaponry again, it struck me that we
> have at least one example of Imperial policy in this matter (though from
> CT and the late Third Imperium).  You may recall that one of the Azhanti
> High Lightning-class was bought in a jiggered deal by a private company
> (Tukera?  I hate having all my Traveller stuff in Oregon!) where they took
> delivery outside the borders of the Imperium.  The ship could never
> re-enter the Imperium, since it still had all its weaponry, including that
> big honking spinal mount.  Since the ship was used for trading with the
> Vargr, this was no bad thing - kept the natives respectful, so to speak.
> 
>   The question then becomes when this policy came into being.  I'd argue
> it predates the Third Imperium - probably goes back to the First, for that
> matter.  Governments like to have a monopoly on extreme methods of
> violence, especially when it comes to things that threaten trade.  For the
> early Third Imperium, this is probably even more of an issue, due to the
> desire to control piracy.

The only problem with this is the relative stability of borders - in 1100,
the Imperium's borders are pretty much fixed, with the exception of
a few systems in the Marches. In 0, weeellll... the Imperium is kinda
looking to expand its borders pretty aggressively. Having a ship for
the purpose of "trading outside of Imperial borders" is going to be
a losing proposition around Year 0 - you have less and less territory every
year.

Also, in 1100, the Imperium knew who had the ship and didn't really fear
it being used, even against the Imperium itself. (If Oberindes decided
to start doing commerce raiding with their big ship, the Imperium could
and would make Oberindes' business life difficult). On the other hand,
anybody who goes outside of Sylean/Imperial space in Year 0 is probably
going to sell all their wizz-bang weaponry to one of the new Imperium's
enemies, make a tidy bundle and get the heck out of there. Not the
sort of situation the new Imperium wants - selling arms indirectly to
its own enemies.

>   Thus, I'd guess that owning military-grade weaponry in the Imperium
> would be limited to world governments and the Imperial Navy, with the Navy
> keeping a damn close eye on world governments to make sure they are not
> fronts for pirates.  Thus, system defense boats will get the latest tech -
> but vessals capable of jump would be tightly restricted.
> 
>   Now, I'm sure the average Megacorp could figure ways around this in a
> heartbeat.  Operating entirely outside the boundaries of the Imperium is
> one method - another might be to get a ship designated as a naval
> "reserve" ship that could be called up in time of war.

I think the Imperium would make the weapons itself and just plain
old not sell them. Or at least, they're choosy about who they sell
to, kind of like the US and its military technology today. (Imagine
letting me buy a F15 just 'cause I said I'd keep it in Canada).

>   Here is a tentative list of military-grade equipment, divided into three
> catagories:  Unrestricted (all vessels can legaly mount these), restricted
> (special permits or regulations apply), and forbidden (only Imperial
> military ships or SDBs can use them).  I'd be interested in comments as to
> how well each item fits in the catagory assigned.
> 
> UNRESTRICTED
>   Military Control Systems (just radiation hardened versions of civilian
> 			    technology)
>   Communications Systems 
>   Civilian Laser Batteries (essentially +0 rated systems)
>   Sandcasters
>   Meson Screens
>   Nuclear Dampers

Nuclear dampers have legitimate civilian uses - handling of
radioactive cargo, halping prevent radiation damage to people, etc.

Meson screens, on the other hand, have one purpose and one purpose
only - defence against meson guns. Meson guns are very big, very 
nasty top-of-the-line military weapons. No civilian should ever be
in a place where they need to defend themselves against this kind
of weapon. It's like selling cars with 3 inch hardened steel armor.
Even if it was legal (selling an armoured car isn't illegal, I know)
I doubt that it would really be that economical - why waste 20+MCr
on something that will probably never be used.

(Maybe it's a cultural thing - I understand that you can buy
armour-piercing bullets in the US, the only purpose of which 
is to get through armour that is only worn by military and 
police people. You can't buy this in Canada and I agree that
it's a generally good idea.)

Also, I doubt that the Syleans would want their potential enemies
having all their ships meson screened with brand new Sylean units...
kinda makes meson guns even more useless if it's trivially easy
to defend yourself against them.

> RESTRICTED
>   Military Sensor Systems (this is open to interpretation, but the Basic
>   Military Laser Turrets and Barbettes*
>   Missile Turrets and Barbettes without MFDs*
> 
>   * According to QSDS, most (NOT all) planets allow non-military
> shipowners to install these systems
> 
> FORBIDDEN
>   Missile Batteries (missile systems with MFDs)
>   Bay Weapons
>   Spinal Weapons
> 
> 
>   Most of the above seems reasonable, aside from the fact that MFDs are
> allowed for laser instalations but not for missiles.  This may be a law
> left over from TL-10 times, when lasers were not dangerous at long range.
> For example, a TL-10 laser bay in the QSDS system is 50T, needs 125 MW,
> costs 104MCr, and is only rated at (+3)1/2-0-0-0.  At TL-12, you can get
> that same rating with a single turret that is 5.3T, uses 29.8MW, and costs
> only 27MCr (gravitic focussing is great).  If I were the Imperium, I'd
> forbid MFDs for lasers as well - QSDS has laser batteries that fit in a
> 50T space that do (+4)1/9-7-5-3, better than a 100T TL-11 PA-Gun!

I think that kind of laser battery consists of something like 10 or 12
individual weapons... getting hit by that many lasers at once would
sure put you in a world of hurt!

The source of my problem with meson screens is a more fundamental one - 
I like spinal mounts. I think they should rule the battlefield. They
should be orders of magnitude more powerful than any other single
weapon that you can stick in a ship. Having even the simplest free traders
even somewhat defended against the meson gun, the hugest, most powerful
direct-fire-explosive weapon in the history of humaniti kinda ruins it.

The problem with them in T4 is one of scale - small PAs and Meson guns
don't do much damage. As they get bigger, however, their damage should
go up by some exponential factor, making those big ships that we can't
build (yet) really, really deadly.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 12:08:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>>I thought that the Imperial army formations had only cadres as permanent
>>features, and called up the reserves to fill out the units in time of war.  

>The problem here is that this kind of scheme only works at the highest
>levels.. Corps and above.  Below that, you need to be an integrated team,
>and know the capabilities of the officers and soldiers.  If Colonel Alfa is
>a bit cautious in the attack, you don't want his regiment to go into
>pursuit, give that assignment to Colonel Bravo.  These are the sorts of
>things you learn over a period of years.

I agree that that's a problem, but is it cost-effective to keep entire Imperial 
divisions and corps at full strength all the time?  Even if you lose some tactical 
ability, it probably makes sense to leave the worlds in charge of raising troops and 
just provide the infrastructure.  

I think that the TML had a discussion about this last year, but I don't remember the 
results.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 23:42:43 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

At 12:30 AM 5/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>I'm doing a writeup of one of my worlds in my
>Terran Confederation setting and wanted to add
>a position for the planets starport, when I
>ran into problem. How do you give places positions
>on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
>to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
>some specified place? How would you know where this
>place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
>doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
>the longitude? Any thoughts.
>
>Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
>Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
>University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
>Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 
>
>
How about a line from pole to pole bisecting the light side when the planet
is at perigee or apogee in it's orbit? Would have to precisely time the
orbit to get the proper place.

Or a line from pole to pole, exactly bisecting the largest land mass on the
planet. For Earth, I think that would be somewhere in the Finland Russia,
Turkey,Syria, Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Ethopia, etc.

Or a line from pole to pole, exactly bisecting the largest water body on the
planet. 

The first would take some precise calculations, the second would be some
what simplier by observation.

Garry
   

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:05:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: QSDS 1.5

I just down loaded QSDS 1.5 - are there any changes/corrections that I
should be aware of so I don't mess up my designs. IIRC someone mentioned a
factor of tem error somewhere...

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:33:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IG Webpage

On Mon, 5 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> I've been trying to go to the IG Webpage, but i always get a "remote
> Server may be down" error!
> Does anybody know more?
> I don't like this at all!

I get it about 50% of the time, and aways when I try to access the TNS...
(If the TNS reports pre-1115 are not copyright, can someone send me a (non
list) copy as I want to use them as a backdrop to Twilight's Peak... Cheers

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:03:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Darwin Stories

>	ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games?
>Players who
>*really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?

One of my players used a RAM grenade in the alien complex in Shadows to
take out some of the Alien critters.

And the rest of the party.

And he had plenty of time to consider the error of his ways as I ruled that
he brought the roof down and trapped himself in. Well, actually, he had 8
hours before his suit failed! ;)

Sort of a high tech version of Leonard's story....

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:06:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Leviathan Stats

As requested CT stats for Leviathan class:

1800 dt Crew 56
Power Plant 4
Jump drive 3 (Jump drive 2 also installed as backup)
M Drive 4G (2G Back Up also installed)
Computer 7 fib (Computer 6 back up) MFDs and turret mount control
Fuel for one jump (580 dt)
300 days powerplant fuel
Fuel purification plant
33 staterooms and 6 low passage (4 passengers)
70 dt Cargo
6x dual beam laser turret
4 Missile launch tubes
Armour 2
1x 95 dt shuttle
1x 40 dt pinnance
2x 20 dt lifeboat
6 additional hardpoints.
Built at TL13
Partial streamlining

Architect Bob mcWilliams
(c) FarFuture (I presume)

The Leviathan is more of an initial contact ship than a large scale trader...

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:18:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Flood of the Millenium

In Mail Shadow wrote:

>No, they get both. Coal plants emit levels of radioactive material
>(mostly fly ash) that would get a nuclear plant shut down.

Yes. Interesting little known fact. The UK's nuclear reprocessing facility
at Sellafield has recently built a gas fired CHP plant to fill in the gap
in steam generation between any new nuclear stations (the existing Magnox
reactors are nearly 50!) being built. The original plans were to use local
coal for the plant, but then they realised that the radiation levels
exceeded the site limits! ;-)

Oh yes - apparently one of the first indications that Chernobyl had
happened was the site airborne sensors indicating radiation, which cause a
few worried people until they realised that it was carried in the rain that
was falling, nothing to do with the site. There are still sheep farmers in
the area who can't sell their flocks and are being compensated.

Apologies for the non-Traveller rambling.

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 97 20:34:50 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

On 05/06/97 at 01:29 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> Very good system, Eris!  I like your ideas too.

> I can see how you figure them out first and put that info on the 
> character sheet.  

Yeah, I do almost everything on the fly *except* character stats. ;->

Extending the "how far can a PC run?" theme a little, how are people using
the Atletics skill?

On a slightly different subject, I don't actually use Dexterity+Strength
for running speed. I've always broken Dexterity into two parts Manual
Dexterity (for fine motor skills..like repairing components or picking
locks) and Agility (for gross motor skills..like dance or running). I
actually use Agility+Strength. 


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 97 21:06:40 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: What does a 1 G lifter, lift?

On 05/06/97 at 05:19 AM,  "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com> said:

> QSDS hull are built with 1G contra gravity lifters for just these
> reasons.  Keep in mind that a 1G rating for contra grav isn't an absolute
> rating but a relative rating (i.e., a 1G contra grav on a world with a
> gravity 1.5Gs actually produces 1.5Gs of thrust). 

Is this something that is generally agreed to?  It looks like you are
multiplying the CG lift times the local gravity level: 1G*1.5g=1.5G's of
thrust.

This means a 6G lifter in a 3g gravity could produce, 6*3=18G's of lift? 
That should boost you out of that gravity well like a "bat out of
Hades"...and leave a dirty spot on your pilot's couch if you aren't
careful. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 97 21:18:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: New interstellar trade system, part one

On 05/06/97 at 06:42 AM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au> said:

> The trade system in Merchant Prince/T4 doesnt work. It doesnt scale 

This was a good post!

The PBEM, I'm getting ready to start is going to involve a lot of trade and
commerce, along with exploration and adventure.  <g> So, I'm looking any
ideas on economics I can find.

> Next installment will try to actually quantify the trade from and to a
> world, given a UPP and some other data ...

I'll be looking forward to your next installment.  It sounds like just the
sort of thing I'm looking for.

Didn't Rob Prior start a series of posts on a system for generating trade
item lists for planets based on UPP's several months ago?  I know I'd have
saved it if he posted it, and I can't find it!  Help!!

Eris,
    Looking for a few good merchants to Trade where no one has
    traded before!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 97 20:45:10 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: [TML]Spectacular Failure...

>...We were trying to tie SF somehow to one's skill level.  That is, the
>likelihood of SF is not only related to task difficulty but also to skill
of >tester. 

I can see that.

What I'm doing is, after the player rolls all the dice and determines
success or failure, I pick up any sixes and reroll them.  Every six I get
on the second roll is an increasing degree of failure. Example:

John rolls:  1 6 2 6 4, and being a *pro* succeeds at his task.

I re-roll the two sixes:  4 6, and although John succeeded, it was only a
partial success.

John rolls again:  6 4 5 6 6, and even a pro doesn't succeed on 27 too
often..he fails.

I re-roll the 3 sixes:  3 3 6, and his failure is even worse..something bad
happens.  If I'd rolled two or three sixes it would have been awful! ;->

It's pretty subjective, but it's worked pretty well.  Of course, I've only
used this in my PBEM's so far and I roll all the dice there anyway. ;->  I
*do* like having degrees of success and failure.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 97 21:27:32 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

On 05/06/97 at 05:30 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> >As always, if you want good defence, I say mount more armor. It will
> >absorb hits from any kind of weapon, laser, PA or meson and it requires
> >snip

> Will armour really protect against meson gun hits? Is this T4 canon or am
> I missing something?

That has to have been a mis-statement!  The mythical meson cannon skips the
armor and hits the meat.  Maybe having more internal structure to absorb
the meson hits is what he meant.

You know the *only* thing about meson cannon that I like is the deep meson
site.  I absolutely detest them as ship weapons..from a game play/design
point of view. 

Eris

ps.
I think I'll invent the singularity cannon!  It fires a pair of transverse
standing gravity waves forming a singularity at their intersection.  The
standing waves travel at the speed of gravity (is that c, or is that
something else? <g>), until they decay at range X.  Yep, that's my new
weapon, the singularity cannon..think it'll ever be canon? ;-b

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 97 20:58:00 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

On 05/06/97 at 09:44 AM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> Eris is right...

Oooh, how I love those words!  ;-> I think I'll add them to my signature
line...if only you'd said "Eris is always right!" ;-D

> I think in that running speed is unaffected by END. END
> tells you how long time you can run. The reason I don't include STR in
> running speed is that I've never seen really high STR guys running much
> faster than my mother:) The reason for that is muscle friction and mass
> (it might actually have to do with the square cube law again). 

Ah, yes!  I know what you mean.  You're talking about the "muscle bound"
weight-room jockeys.  I don't really picture hight STR that way though.  A
competition class sprinter is *strong*, as strong in their way as a
weightlifter.  If we're going to model this accurately we'd have to have
attributes for the "fast-fire" muscle strength of the sprinter and
"slow-fire" muscle strength of the lifter.

> Also after a certain STR your ability in lifting multiples of your
> own weight goes down when adding more muscles, that's also why no
> climbers are very muscled.  

That's true too.

> Maybe you should cap the advantages of STR to 10 or so is no speed
> bonus (or even speed penalties) above  STR 10).

For simplicity, you are probably right.  We could say that STR is the
combination of all kinds of strength and you get speed and lifting benefits
up to a certain level, but after that you begin to lose speed while lifting
continues on up.  This might be pretty accurate too, because sprinters have
to be careful not to over do strength training to keep from getting muscle
bound.

Eris,
 I'm not a Kinestheoligist, I only play one on TV.
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:09:26 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Emperor's Arsenal Question

I just bought Emperor's Arsenal and agree with all the comments written
about it; it's the best book IG has put out so far. The only book of
comparable quality is CSC, which coincidentally also happens to be written
by Greg Porter. I hope this is a trend. The descriptions are written in
game-world terms instead of gear-head jargon, and the illustrations all
depict the items being described in typical usage instead of generic sci-fi
clip art like we see in the other IG books. My favorite illustration has
got to be for the Rifle, Hunting-5 on page 33.

Quibbles are few; the cover art is generic fluff that has nothing to do
with the contents of the book. I would prefer that the advanced rules all
be moved to a single section instead of being scattered through the book.
The Revolver, Magnum-10 has a mighty short barrel for a handgun capable of
Short range. Several illustrations, like the mines, plasma cannons, and
point-defense lasers, do not include a person or vehicle so it is very
difficult to get an idea of the size of these weapons. The stats for the
Machinegun, RF Gauss-12 is missing. The master weapons table should include
the page number the item is described on.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1290
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1291



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What does a 1 G lifter, lift?
Armor Question
Communication Question
M-Drive Question
Re: Position on worlds ?
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Mass Drivers
Re: Communication Question
RE: M-Drive Question
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: Communication Question
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: THUDDD COmments
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:40:04 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: What does a 1 G lifter, lift?

>> QSDS hull are built with 1G contra gravity lifters for just these
>> reasons.  Keep in mind that a 1G rating for contra grav isn't an absolute
>> rating but a relative rating (i.e., a 1G contra grav on a world with a
>> gravity 1.5Gs actually produces 1.5Gs of thrust).
>
>Is this something that is generally agreed to?  It looks like you are
>multiplying the CG lift times the local gravity level: 1G*1.5g=1.5G's of
>thrust.


I think what he meant is that each G of contra grav counters 1G of world
gravity, were (obviously) 1G varies from world to world. So a 1G contra
grav would work just as effectively, and produce relatively the same amount
of lift on Saturn as it would on Earth. I don't think I really agree with
that idea, but then I don't know what the generally agreed to definition is.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:35:05 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Armor Question

Let me get the list's opinion on this--

I've been trying to incorporate CT/MT/TNE armor types into the T4 
game mechanics.  I need Armor Values for things like Flak Jackets, 
Cloth Armor, and Combat Armor.

My first thought was to redesign each piece of armor using FFS, but 
since that is not out yet for T4, I'm going to have to wait.

In the mean time, I've been comparing MT AV's to T4 AV's, and these 
look the closest to what T4 is using.  The TNE AV's are much too 
small.

For example, in MT, Mesh Armor is AV 2.  Coincidentally, in T4, Mesh 
Armor is also AV 2.

But, I run into some problems with other armor types.  The CSC states 
that Battle Dress-14 would be AV 10.  In the MT Player's Manual, 
Battle Dress-14 is AV 18!  That's a huge difference--almost twice.

Making other comparisons between flex, cloth, and combat armor, it 
seems that MT AV's are pretty close to T4 AV's.

The question is:

What is your opinion on using MT AV's with the T4 system?

I've got to find a way to incorporate these armor types into T4.  As 
it is, there is not that much armor to choose from for T4.  
Basically, you've got Battle Dress and Flex.  

What do you think?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:35:06 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Communication Question

OK, here's another little question for the esteemed members of this 
list.

During our game on Sunday, my players were in a space station 
outsystem from the main planet.  They got the maser communicator 
working, and they tried to contact the starport on the main world.

The question came up of how much of a time lag is there for 
communications.

How I handled this was to figure the linear distance between the 
station and the planet (I had already made a map of the system prior 
to the session, and it was easy to calculate the distance between the 
station and the planet).  Then, we just calculated time based on the 
communication traveling at the speed of light.  It turned out that 
the time lag was around 11 minutes.

How do you guys handle long distance communications like this?

I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
travel in space?

I see all types of applications for this.  For instance, when a 
starship first enters a system and locks on to the homing 
transmission from the starport.  How much of a time lag is there.  
This could also be applied in starship combat if the distances are 
long enough.

So, the question of this post is:  How do you handle long distance 
communications and time lags in your games?

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:46:48 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: M-Drive Question

I'm just full of questions tonight, but, hey, that's what the TML is 
all about, isn't it?  It's a resource for GMs and Players to bat 
around questions like this and allow people to get opinions from 
others who are interested in the game.

Right?

So, here goes question number three for the night...

I've been educating my players (and myself) on the workings of their 
starship.  I'm using the Starship Operator's Manual as a guide.

We were discussing the M-Drive (how it works, and such) before our 
game last Sunday, and the question came up...

If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration, 
how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field 
rated at 2 Gs?

I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the 
M-Drive.  I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a 
ship can be overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess 
that means that our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really 
produces 4 Gs of acceleration when it is taking off or landing 
planetside.

Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing 
something?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:57:11 -0600
From: "Kerry Forester" <ursinetc@scott.net>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

> >I'm doing a writeup of one of my worlds in my
> >Terran Confederation setting and wanted to add
> >a position for the planets starport, when I
> >ran into problem. How do you give places positions
> >on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
> >to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
> >some specified place? How would you know where this
> >place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
> >doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
> >the longitude? Any thoughts.
> >
> >Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    

> How about a line from pole to pole bisecting the light side when the planet
> is at perigee or apogee in it's orbit? Would have to precisely time the
> orbit to get the proper place.
>
> Garry

True, and calculating the position would be a simple task for the 
astrogation program, probably only requiring a few seconds of sensor 
data on the system's motion pattern.  Damn good idea.
 

- -Kerry

Kerry Forester
ursinetc@scott.net
http://www.scott.net/~ursinetc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 23:05:20 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>I may be blatantly obvious but I feel that the rules are not clear on
>this point.
>
>I propose that the income generated by one jump is related to the distance
>traveled in that Jump.  This means that to travel the same distance on any
>vessel always costs the same.

I know this is an old post, but I kept it around because it mentions
something that has always bugged me. Unfortunately, the rules are quite
clear on this point. Page 97 of T4 says "Passage is always sold on the
basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on jump
distance.... A Jump 3 starship charges the same passage price as a Jump 1
starship."

This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through. The opportunities
for abuse, like buying a ticket for a 200-jump journey and selling the
remaining fare after 1 jump, living cheaper on starships than at fleabag
hostels, starships jumping to empty space and allowing passengers to buy
passage to the next planet or get off here, should be so obvious I will
mention only these few examples. Since the cost in equipment, crew, fuel,
and technology of higher jump numbers will not be compensated by higher
revenues, it would be financially insane for any commercial vessel to have
greater than Jump-1 at any tech level. The only way for ships to avoid this
trap is to only travel back and forth between two planets a single jump
from each other. Not only is this situation absurd, but it is contrary to
the Traveller canon of free traders plying far reaches of space.

I feel the proposal to charge passage for each parsec to the destination is
the simplest fix to the situation, but that it makes interstellar travel
even more expensive that it already is in Traveller. Is there anyone with
an accounting background who would undertake the effort to calculate
reasonable passage prices based on the operating expenses for starships?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 18:53:23 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Mass Drivers

It looks like there are no fixes for Mass Drivers out there, except the
direct fire range fix. It also seems painfully obvious (to me, anyway) that
one is needed, so I've decided to work at one. If I get anywhere I'll post
my results here (assuming that anyone's interested, that is).

Looking at approaches I've identified two main avenues:

1/ Go back to real-world research and work from there. This has the
advantage of automatically passing reality checks, but this may end up with
something that doesn't fit well with 'cannon reality'. Another disadvantage
(for me) is that I probobly can't get hold of much in the way of source
material.

2/ Fit the MD design sequence into the existing FF&S sequneces in such a
way that MDs have performance characteristics in a range that fits TNE
cannon. This of course means that there's a fair chance that MDs, like
gravitic focusing in lasers could well involve large amounts of handwaving.
This is especially true as it's years since I did any physics, and I always
was hopeless at anything involving electromagnetics.

Of these approchese I'm going to try the later, as this way I can work
backwards from a set of parameters describing a MDs desired performance in
the rules. Some characteristics I'm looking at:

1/ At TL9 MDs should have less military usefulness than ETC powered CPRs
(so that ETC guns still have some value).

2/ At TL10+ they should be better than ETCs, though they will probably
still be bigger when the power supply is considered.

3/ Once High Energy weapons come into service they'll be relegated to
indirect fire support. In this role ETC guns may be better, in which case
the MDs will become obselete.

4/ While tank mounted MDs will be primarily FE weapons HEAP rounds should
have some use, so MD calibres should be in the same range as CPR guns
(besides it sounds dumb having MBT main guns with the same calibre as an
APC's autocannon).

5/ The power requirements should be low enough that they are practical for
vehicle mounts at TL9+

For this to happen MD penetration will have to take a nose-dive, other-wise
nobody'll ever go with plasma or fusion guns. To make sense in the indirect
role they'll at least need to be capable of firing base bleed and rocket
assisted rounds.

Obviously most of these requirements can be met by lowering the MVs and MEs
of Mass Drivers, but other parts of the sequence will have to be changed as
well.

I'd also like to get ammo weights more in line with the rest of FF&S. In a
similar vein I intend to at least try to mesh the lower end with the gauss
rifle sequence. BTW, I seem to recall someone saying that the Gauss
sequence has flaws, if so what are they?

Comments and discussion is more than welcome.


Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
"This weak, degenerate generation - even their sins are watered down. 
The old pirates of my father's day could have eaten them all for 
breakfast and digested their bones before lunch."
_The Warrior's Apprentice_, by Lois McMaster Bujold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 01:55:26 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Communication Question

On 05/07/97 at 12:35 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> How I handled this was to figure the linear distance between the  station
> and the planet (I had already made a map of the system prior  to the
> session, and it was easy to calculate the distance between the  station
> and the planet).  Then, we just calculated time based on the 
> communication traveling at the speed of light.  It turned out that  the
> time lag was around 11 minutes.

> How do you guys handle long distance communications like this?

Light speed.  Radio, maser, laser, radar, infrared all light speed.  I try
to remember that there are approximately 500 light seconds in an AU, so
when distances are measured in AU I just multiply by 500. If the distance
is in millions of kilometers I divide by 300,000. If the distance is in
light seconds, I just use light seconds. ;-> It would be nice if all
distances in-system were measured in light seconds.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:03:59 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: M-Drive Question

That is a question that came up early in my original CT campaign!  It was a 
real problem as the players were running around in a 1G Fat trader.

Until the SOM further defined M-Drives and the capability of overdriving 
them, I had a JATO strap on (sold at all the better starports) for ships 
needing that extra boost.  At cr100 per 100 tons of ship, it was economical 
enough for most traders and but still allowed me to explain how things were 
'supposed' to work with a minimum of handwaving.  Also, if a ship was less 
than 50% loaded (including fuel), I would permit liftoff from any standard 
world.  Some of the PCs ended up being quite good at orbital cargo 
transfer!

Currently, I allow for overdriving the M-drives.  There are 
some...interesting, details that must be allowed for.  IE, how does a 
loaded Fat Trader, sitting horizontal on a Size B world, generate enough 
thrust upward, to get the tail down so that the primary vector can generate 
that 400% thrust?  According to the SOM, a maximum of 25% thrust (that's 1G 
at 400% overdrive) can be generated 90 degrees from the attitude of the 
M-drive plates.

It's easily designed into a starport (hydraulic lift pads or CG plates 
built into the launch pads) to provide the correct launch attitude, but 
wilderness landings can be a bit touchy!

- ----------
From: 	Kenneth Bearden[SMTP:dreamer@weck.brokersys.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 06, 1997 5:46 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	M-Drive Question

I'm just full of questions tonight, but, hey, that's what the TML is
all about, isn't it?  It's a resource for GMs and Players to bat
around questions like this and allow people to get opinions from
others who are interested in the game.

Right?

So, here goes question number three for the night...

I've been educating my players (and myself) on the workings of their
starship.  I'm using the Starship Operator's Manual as a guide.

We were discussing the M-Drive (how it works, and such) before our
game last Sunday, and the question came up...

If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration,
how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field
rated at 2 Gs?

I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the
M-Drive.  I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a
ship can be overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess
that means that our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really
produces 4 Gs of acceleration when it is taking off or landing
planetside.

Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing
something?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 19:04:29 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

At 00:46 7/05/97 +0000, you wrote:
>If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration, 
>how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field 
>rated at 2 Gs?
>
>I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the 
>M-Drive.  I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a 
>ship can be overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess 
>that means that our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really 
>produces 4 Gs of acceleration when it is taking off or landing 
>planetside.
>
>Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing 
>something?
In TNE/FF&S the conta-grav unit nullifies almost all the gravity, so the
drive doesn't have to work against the planet. I'm not sure how it works in
T4.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 02:21:14 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

On 05/07/97 at 12:46 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> I've been educating my players (and myself) on the workings of their 
> starship.  I'm using the Starship Operator's Manual as a guide.

I wish I had a copy of that book.  ;-> I know it is supposed to do a good
job of describing DGP's idea of how the technology worked, but does it give
really good descriptions of what each of the crew is actually doing?  

> We were discussing the M-Drive (how it works, and such) before our  game
> last Sunday, and the question came up...

> If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration,  how
> does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field  rated
> at 2 Gs?

> I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the  M-Drive. 
> I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a  ship can be
> overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess  that means that
> our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really  produces 4 Gs of
> acceleration when it is taking off or landing  planetside.

> Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing 
> something?

That's the SOM explanation, sure enough, I've heard it rated,
debated, and berated often enough!  ;-> It makes sense to me that you could
"overpower", ie. run your equipment at over 100%, for a short period, but
I've always questioned 400%.

Personally, and you know me <g>, I allow overloading by a few
percent (up to 30% at best) with increased chances of failure and greatly
decreased MTBF..and maintenance cycles.  The *skills* of the operator and
the maintainer are the keys here.  For a maneuver drive the Engineer's
Asset (skill+attribute) is the % above 100 at which he can "tweak" up the
drive.  The Pilot's Asset is the % at which he could actually fly the
drive.  

When it comes to maintenance, you should rate the drive.  The
standard maneuver drive needs an overhaul every year..that's, let's say,
every 1000 hours of use at 100% or less.  I say that every hour, or part of
an hour over 100% is the same as 10 hours at 100%. This means every lift or
launch at >100% costs 10 hours in Maint time.  

Do I have a line on the ship's Stat Sheet?  Yep!  ;-> One for all the major
components.  Maintenance and repair reduce the numbers, use (and especially
overloading) increases the numbers.  When the number exceeds the Component
rating then I start making failure rolls.  ;-> A major overhaul (yearly
maintenance) drops the number to 0.


Eris,
    if I keep this up you'll think I'm a detail freak! ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 19:02:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Communication Question

At 00:35 7/05/97 +0000, you wrote:
>OK, here's another little question for the esteemed members of this 
>list.
>
>During our game on Sunday, my players were in a space station 
>outsystem from the main planet.  They got the maser communicator 
>working, and they tried to contact the starport on the main world.
>
>The question came up of how much of a time lag is there for 
>communications.
>
>How I handled this was to figure the linear distance between the 
>station and the planet (I had already made a map of the system prior 
>to the session, and it was easy to calculate the distance between the 
>station and the planet).  Then, we just calculated time based on the 
>communication traveling at the speed of light.  It turned out that 
>the time lag was around 11 minutes.
>
>How do you guys handle long distance communications like this?
In the same way.

>I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
>but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
>travel in space?
At light speed, all electromagnetic radiation travels at the same speed in
a vacuum. In other media (air, glass, etc.) the speed is different, though
I don't know if it varies by frequency.

>I see all types of applications for this.  For instance, when a 
>starship first enters a system and locks on to the homing 
>transmission from the starport.  How much of a time lag is there.  
>This could also be applied in starship combat if the distances are 
>long enough.
It's one of the factors in the target solution. In 2300AD it's a huge
factor in space warfare (makes for interesting in-system ops :)

>So, the question of this post is:  How do you handle long distance 
>communications and time lags in your games?
Pretty much the same way.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 02:31:40 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

On 05/06/97 at 11:05 PM,  rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough) said:

> I feel the proposal to charge passage for each parsec to the destination
> is the simplest fix to the situation, but that it makes interstellar
> travel even more expensive that it already is in Traveller. 

Yeah, what he said!  Well, the charge should be what the market will
bear..or the government will let you charge.

If the market rules, then the prices will be lower on well travelled routes
with lots of competition, and much higher on backwater
routes.  Distance will matter, time will matter, what will really matter is
covering fixed and variable costs.

If the government sets the prices, then...you might well have flat rates. 
The prices would be averaged to allow costs to be covered on *average*
routes, or maybe there would be subsidies to increase travel, or maybe
disincentives to decrease travel.

> Is there anyone with an accounting background who would undertake
> the effort to calculate reasonable passage prices based on the
> operating expenses for starships?

Yes, please.  How about preparing a Balance Sheet and Income
Statement for a typical Free Trader?

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD COmments

  I agree that Meson screens probably have some sort of restrictions
associated with them - its just that there is nothing in the rules that I
have been able to find so far that indicates that they are restricted.  As
defensive weaponry, I'd tend to think there would be less restriction than
on spinal mounts, let us say, but that's just a feeling.  Perhaps a move
from the "unrestricted" to the "restricted" list is most logical.

  As for the feel of ships designed with meson guns, well, I always liked
them (and screens) - they were the closest thing that CT had to magic
weapons, and it was a great way to get the players' attention.

  As for meson screens, well, if you have meson guns you gotta have them,
otherwise in game terms combat becomes nasty, brutish, and short as huge
spinal mounts blow everything up.  As they are deliniated now, meson
screens rapidly become more expensive in volume, power, and cash as you
get above minimal levels.  Small ships can't carry big screens, so the
dominance of the big meson tubes is preserved. 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:04:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

> This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through. 

I see your point, Richard.  An enterprising young tramp freighter 
captain with a Jump-2 starship could come in to a situation where 
only Jump-1 starships operate and clean up.  Nobody would want to use 
the Jump-1 ships unless all of their cargos were going only 1 parsec 
away--which it is highly unlikely that they all are going only 1 
parsec.

But, let me play devil's advocate here.  Maybe this system evolved 
because of the economics involved.

On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation 
companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used 
to higher costs for longer distances.

This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs 
the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.

The time in jump space is the same.  The cost for fuel is the same.  
Since the time is the same, the cost for life support is the same.  
In fact, I can't think of one expense that is greater if you take 
your starship 2 parsecs rather than one.  

Starships with greater jump range have an advantage because they can 
deliver to more places.  This gives them a step up over the Jump-1 
guys if a cargo is being sent far.

But, the Jump-2 guys can offer no advantage over the Jump-1 guys when 
a cargo is only going one parsec, and this is probably what keeps the 
Jump-1 guys in business.

That, and the fact that the Jump-1 guys congregate in the lesser 
travelled parts of space where the people needing transportation are 
just glad to see a ship.  Even if you are sending a cargo three 
parsecs away, you have to weigh the costs of waiting a long time for 
that Jump-3 starship to show up and take your cargo vs a Jump-1 that 
can get it one third the way to its destination today--or even take 
the cargo the full 3 parsecs at three times the cost.

Is three times the cost worth it?  It is if you can't afford to wait 
three months before that Jump-3 starship shows up when the 
Jump-1ship, here today, can get it there in three weeks.

And, that's just my two cents, for whatever its worth (definitely not 
two cents, I'm sure!)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1291
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1292



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: THUDDD Comments (long)
Re: What does a 1 G lifter, lift?
Cargo Revenue and Stupid Captains
Re: Polyhedra
Re: Position on worlds
New interstellar trade system Part Two
Re: M-Drive Question
IG UK Prices.
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Communications Question
Re: Communication question
Griffen SDB Mk II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments (long)

> 
> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:19:13 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
> Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments
> 
> 
> I would really like someone to put some ships through some combat sequences
> to see if these defences actually work... The basic ship combat system in the 
> T4 rulebook is pretty deadly - a few hits and *poof* you've probably lost
> a drive, power plant or you've plain old exploded. That's bad. If your
> opponent has more maneuver than you, he'll hit eventually and then you're
> SOL. 

  I agree - I've solicited feedback on this issue in the past, but got
little response.  Looks like few folks actually do ship combat on a
regular basis, at least with T4 - the folks who responded talked in terms
of High Guard, mostly.
 
> Now, I'm not saying that "the best defence is a good offence" 100% of the
> time, but I think we've got to do a dry run to see how things work out here...

  True, but if the defensive weaponry for sale is essentially useless (as
you seem to suggest), why is it out there?  Aside from the possibility
that it exists to make the crew feel better about their chances of
survival, I'd tend to say that if the sandcasters and nuclear dampers
don't work as they should, fix the combat system so they do.

> > > > Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.
> > > 
> > >   Do I detect a hint of my own influence here?  This clearly refers to
> > > meson screens - the exact level of screening is unclear to me, though note
> > > that under 1000T desgins have an advantage here, since they get a bonus
> > > for the same sized equipment.  
> > 
> > You do indeed. :)
> 
> ???
> 
> I still think that if you don't have a meson gun, you don't need a meson
> screen. I mean, this is like saying 'traders operating near the former
> USSR should be equipped with anti-surface missile missles to ensure saftey
> from former Soviet warships". 

  I think the metaphor that would be more appropriate is "Cars that drive
around in Mogadishu, Somalia should have guys with Kalashnikovs in the
back and armor on the sides because there are lots of folks with guns
about."  My reading of M0 background material leads me to believe that
interstellar trade outside the Imperium can be dangerous - that's why so
many folks welcome the coming of the Imperium and the peace and stability
it brings (not to mention the money).

> I mean, really - a ship has to be really
> stinking huge before it can mount a meson gun that does any appreciable amount
> of damage. If you're protected from it - so what? The ship will be able to
> outgun you with it's dozen of laser bays, laser batteries and PA bays.

  True, which is why you don't have meson screens alone - you mount all
the other defensive systems as well.  The point of the discussion was not
to stand up and survive indefinitely - it is to survive just long enough
to engage the jump drive and run away.  The only defense against meson
guns is a meson screen - armor does not work, as I go into in more detail
below.

  Finally, it is a fundamental misconception that only BIG meson weapons
are mounted on warships.  QSDS includes a meson bay weapon that does
(+4)2/3-2-0-0; at 125 tons and only 27.8MW it will fit on a rather small
ship.  Meson weapons are a key technology for TL-12 navies who fight TL-11
or less opponents - since the meson guns bypass armor they give a major
advantage.

> And if it's deep meson sites you're worried about, I have two points:
> 
> a) deep meson sites can draw more power in one shot than the Sylean
> navy will use in a year. OK, maybe not that much, but a lot. Your
> crappy little meson screen will do little to stop it.

  True, but the screen reduces the damage, giving you better odds.
Moreover, not all these sites will be working at peak efficiency - they
are relics, after all.

  By the way, I never said that the screens provided complete protection
against such an attack - just an extra margin of protection at a
relatively reasonable price.


> b) Why in the universe are you pissing off a planet so much that they're
> firing their deep meson guns at you???? Stupid!

  It seems you are not familiar with the planet of TL-16+ robots the
Vilani encountered during the expansion of the First Empire.  They just
shot everyone who entered the system with meson weapons - the internal
explosions scared the Vilani to no end.  It was not until the Rule of Man
(I think) when meson screen equiped ships were avalible that contact with
the inhabitants was made (so to speak - those robots were very rude). 

  By the way, that is one reason the Vilani collapsed in the Nth
Interstellar War - the newly developed Meson weapons the Terrans used were
just like those mysterious weapons those nasty robots had been using, and
it scared the Vilani again.

  The name of the planet is S-something - again, I hate not having my
reference material!  Perhaps someone could dig out the name and the place
where the info first appeared (an issue of Challenge, perhaps?)

  Anyway, the point of this is that the inhabitants of the planet (or the
defense system computer someone left on accidently) may not need a
rational reason for opening up with their meson gun.  Of course, it always
helps to be polite. :-)

> As always, if you want good defence, I say mount more armor. It will
> absorb hits from any kind of weapon, laser, PA or meson and it requires
> no power, gunners or MFDs. 

  It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of meson weaponry here.
They bypass armor and cause internal damage directly.  More armor does not
help - only meson screens are armor against meson weapons.  This has been
part of Traveller since CT days, and still is - the T4 combat system
mentions this, if I am not mistaken.

  Armor has other problems - it is heavy, particularly on large ships, so
it inhibits acceleration.  It is also not an option for QSDS designers,
since armor is fixed in the hulls they can use.

> Sandcasters, yes, useful. Nuclear dampers, 
> yes, useful, perhaps even necessary to transport certain types of 
> nasty radioactive cargos which can be quite lucrative. But meson
> screen? I'd mount advanced EMM before I'd mount a meson screen and
> it's kinda silly to have a trader with super-advanced EMM (for the
> most part).

  We just have to agree to disagree here, but I think you might want to
reconsider based on armor not being effective against meson weaponry.  I'd
also argue that a trader in a high-risk area might well have a use for
advanced EMM.

  Remember, this is an "Exploratory Trader," going to places outside the
Imperium that by definition are less safe.  Precautions are essential that
in normal trading practice in the Imperium would be unwarrented.


________________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 12:24:54 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: What does a 1 G lifter, lift?

>Is this something that is generally agreed to?  It looks like you are
>multiplying the CG lift times the local gravity level: 1G*1.5g=1.5G's of
>thrust.
>
>This means a 6G lifter in a 3g gravity could produce, 6*3=18G's of lift?
>That should boost you out of that gravity well like a "bat out of
>Hades"...and leave a dirty spot on your pilot's couch if you aren't
>careful. ;->
>
>Eris

Not really as that 3G gravity well is well, a well (couldn't resist). This
means that gravity goes down at inverse r^2 rate so that 3 G (a gasgiant?)
will not be all that useful to spaceships. The advantage of CG thrust prop
to Gravity is that all grav vehicles with CG thrsut before multiplying bu
gravity > mass will allow the grav vehicle to fly at all gravities and it
is a better handwave for grav drop off than say "drops of to 1% at 10
diameters" or such nonsense.

One proposal was to make CG be proportional to gravity but powerconsumtion
proportional to thrust. This would make low gravity high thrust impractical
due to the huge amount of CG thrusters needed and high gravity high thrust
would also be impractical due to high power consumtion. This however
negates the advantage of making all gravvehicles with CG thrust equal mass
float as the larger the gravity the more power would be needed.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 13:12:10 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Cargo Revenue and Stupid Captains

Cargo going multiple parsecs should cost more. Ships that can go 2 
or more parsecs in one jump are more expensive and less profitable, 
because they need bigger and more expensive engines, and must have
bigger fuel storage and thus less revenue-earning cargo space.

Ships with Jump-1 drives but fuel storage for multiple jumps will 
be slower and thus less profitable - they take more weeks per trip, 
and thus can make less trips per year to pay those mortgage payments 
or keep those shareholders happy.

Ships with 1G engines landing in gravity wells exceeding one gee tend
to make large holes in the ground, and in any case cannot leave the 
planet under their own power. This is why you bring a 2G cutter, to 
allow cargo transfer while you are safe in orbit.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:44:39 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

On Mon, 05 May 1997 11:51:13, Mike Sellers wrote:

>I haven't seen the movie yet, but does this by chance have anything to do
>with "The Fifth Element"?

Good question. I haven't seen it either.

>Also, why did Plato assign those elements to those particular polyhedra?

As far as I could ever tell, it seemed to be by shape or tradition - the
icosahedron looks like a drop of water, the tetrahedron looks (a very little
bit) like a flame; the cube has been a symbol of solid things since before
his time, and there are supposedly 8 winds. However, he's the one we get the
root of "quintessence" from.

I am trying to figure out a way to use this bit of trivia in my Traveller
game (a bit easier for me since I don't run a "canon" universe). Would it be
possible to build a reasonable technological society without a real
understanding of atoms, electrons or molecules...?
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:44:47 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds

On Tue, 6 May 1997 02:30:25, Tommy Grav wrote:

>How do you give places positions
>on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
>to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
>some specified place? How would you know where this
>place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
>doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
>the longitude? Any thoughts.

I always used a few simple rules of thumb; since the starport is usually the
first thing built on a colony world, it would be right on the prime meridian
(center line). If the world was pre-settled, the sky's the limit. A bit of
general knowledge about weather patterns helps place it where the weather is
not too chaotic, and for low-tech cultures nearer the equator is better due
to the "spin boost" factor.

If you're talking about a newly discovered world, then the word "arbitrary"
springs to mind. One of the first steps in a mapping survay is to establish
a base meridian from which everything else can be measured. Aliens looking
at Earth from space can't spot longitude lines any more than they can spot
national borders...

Hope that helps...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:50:38 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: New interstellar trade system Part Two

Interstellar trade is broken down into three basic categories, 
Military Goods, Luxuries and Essentials.

Most worlds import military equipment, particularily hi-tech 
military equipment. A world has a 10% chance of importing 
equipment of one tech level lower, a 40% chance of having a
policy of defense self-reliance (and thus not importing any
military equipment), a 30% chance of importing military
equipment from one TL higher and a 20% chance of importing
military equipment of the highest TL in existance (rolls of
2-3,4-7,8-9 and 10-12 respectivly is close enough).

A world importing military goods will import 2d6*3 percent of
it's Army budget and 1d6% of it's Navy budget in military goods
per year (military budgets average 3% of GNP. Army budgets are,
on average, 30% of the total defense budget). This includes
spare parts, as well as new equipment. It does not include
complete starships and SDBs, as these will not be bought
on an annual basis.

Military goods cost one Imperial megacredit per ton, and are 
imported from the closest non-non Industrial world of the 
required TL, reachable within the ruling Jump technology,
regardless of range (if there is an Industrial world of the
relevant TL within 120% of that distance, the world will 
import the military goods from there instead).

Luxury goods are of two types - luxury goods of mass consumption 
and luxury goods of elite consumption. Examples of luxury goods
of mass consumption are things like coffee and VCRs - things
bought by the mass of the population with their surplus income.
Luxury goods of elite consumption are bought by the rich, and
are things like Rolls Royce cars, anagathic drugs and Old Masters.

A world will spend 2d6% of it's GDP on luxury goods, modidifed by 
the planetary income modifiers for Rich, Poor, Non-Industrial 
worlds and so on ( yes, this involves a "doubling up" of luxury 
expenditure, as luxuries will be a higher percentage of a higher
planetary GDP. The logic is that a wealthier world will have more
disposable income, and thus a higher propensity to consume luxuries).

A world will have a income dispersion (ID) of 2d6, with 0 representing 
total equality of income and 15 representing total income inequality.

A world will spend 6*ID percent of it's luxury import expenditure on
elite luxury goods, and the remainder on luxury goods of mass consumption.

Elite luxury goods cost one Imperial megacredit per ton, and are imported
from anywhere and everywhere. On average, 20% come from Capital, 30% from
within the sector, 30% from worlds outside the sector but within the
Imperium and 20% from outside the Imperium.

Mass luxury goods cost 1d6* 5000 credits per ton, and are shipped from 2d6
worlds within the subsector and adjoining subsectors.

Part three will follow later ... too tired right now


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:22:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

>If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration,
>how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field
>rated at 2 Gs?
>
>I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the
>M-Drive.  I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a
>ship can be overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess
>that means that our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really
>produces 4 Gs of acceleration when it is taking off or landing
>planetside.
>
>Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing
>something?
>
>Kenneth.

If the ship has wings then it could probably take off with 1G thrust on a
2G planet but my design system handles that. It calculates stall speeds (ie
takeoff speed) at various air pressures, gravities etc.
My M-drives can be tricked (by some pretty hairy Engineer rolls) into
producing up to 50% more thrust but that requires more power as well.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:39:30 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: IG UK Prices.

Well, 

I've just seen the T4 Ref's Screen and Emperor's Arsenal in Virgin 
Megastore Belfast. Ten pounds for the former, 17 for the latter.

That's about 16.60 and 27.25 dollars respectively.

The TNE screen cost about 6.50.

'nuf said.

Sort your prices out!

Eamon Watters.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:01:55 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5AC5.76E35B80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

After reading both arguments I have to say it is probably a combination =
of both systems. A passenger going longer distances should pay more, as =
well as paid charters and the like. However in situations where the =
Trader has purchased the cargo and plans to sell it off world the price =
should be fixed. After all why would a system purchase goods from 5 =
parsecs away and pay high prices when they have a high TL neighbor.=20

As to the statement below that the costs of operating two different =
ships' are the same. Nonsense. Jump 3 Drives cost more, take up more =
room (which takes away from cargo space), and cost more to maintain. =
Also Traveller trade rules have no provisions for you being the only j-3 =
trader in the area so you get more cargo and passengers then j-1 ships, =
they are all the same.  =20


Steven E. Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net


- -----Original Message-----
From:	Kenneth Bearden [SMTP:dreamer@weck.brokersys.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, May 06, 1997 11:05 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!


> This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through.=20

I see your point, Richard.  An enterprising young tramp freighter=20
captain with a Jump-2 starship could come in to a situation where=20
only Jump-1 starships operate and clean up.  Nobody would want to use=20
the Jump-1 ships unless all of their cargos were going only 1 parsec=20
away--which it is highly unlikely that they all are going only 1=20
parsec.

But, let me play devil's advocate here.  Maybe this system evolved=20
because of the economics involved.

On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation=20
companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used=20
to higher costs for longer distances.

This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs=20
the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.

The time in jump space is the same.  The cost for fuel is the same. =20
Since the time is the same, the cost for life support is the same. =20
In fact, I can't think of one expense that is greater if you take=20
your starship 2 parsecs rather than one. =20

Starships with greater jump range have an advantage because they can=20
deliver to more places.  This gives them a step up over the Jump-1=20
guys if a cargo is being sent far.

But, the Jump-2 guys can offer no advantage over the Jump-1 guys when=20
a cargo is only going one parsec, and this is probably what keeps the=20
Jump-1 guys in business.

That, and the fact that the Jump-1 guys congregate in the lesser=20
travelled parts of space where the people needing transportation are=20
just glad to see a ship.  Even if you are sending a cargo three=20
parsecs away, you have to weigh the costs of waiting a long time for=20
that Jump-3 starship to show up and take your cargo vs a Jump-1 that=20
can get it one third the way to its destination today--or even take=20
the cargo the full 3 parsecs at three times the cost.

Is three times the cost worth it?  It is if you can't afford to wait=20
three months before that Jump-3 starship shows up when the=20
Jump-1ship, here today, can get it there in three weeks.

And, that's just my two cents, for whatever its worth (definitely not=20
two cents, I'm sure!)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Communications Question

> >I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
> >but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
> >travel in space?
>
> At light speed, all electromagnetic radiation travels at the same speed in
> a vacuum. In other media (air, glass, etc.) the speed is different, though
> I don't know if it varies by frequency.

Yep, light is light is light. The difference between radio waves and gamma
rays is not their speed, but their energy. Now, does the speed of light vary
by frequency if it's not travelling through a vacuum?

Next time it rains, turn your back to the sun. If you see a big arc
of white light in the sky, the speed of light is constant for all
frequencies. If you see a bunch of different coloured bands, it varies. ;)

Ethan
- --
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Communication question

hi! Some comments=E9/questions :)
=20
	Most planetary athmospheres "stop" certain frequencies - for
instance, we get a lot of UV protection and such.  Wouldn't that
interfere with certain long range comm. devices like lasercomm/maser,
radio and such?  Also, wouldn't a radio or other device transmitting
such a strong signal be dangerous to bystanders?=20
=20
	Transmission delay: Masers, lasercomm, et al. go at light
speed or slightly slower in certain media...  radio signals might
actually go much slower because the signal doesn't always go in a
straight line to its target.  BTW, if you try to communicate with
someone on a planet, wouldn't they be out of reach half of the time
because they're on the wrong side of the planet?  How many
satellites/repeaters would you need to ensure that you can get in
touch with anybody anywhere on a planet from any angle of approach?
(I'm thinking 6 at least, like a cube around the planet)
=20
	A meson comm signal would normally decay long before passing
thru the planet...
=20

- --=20
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 09:59:50 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Griffen SDB Mk II

 
John Macpherson commented on the Griffen SDB I sent out a while back,
so here is thenew and improved version.


 
>	I am not sure what use the light laser turrets are intended for.  
>Their low penetration means that they cannot do real damage to most 
>military ships, even fighters. 
Good point. I never even looked at the damage.  Don't know what I was thinking.


> The fact that they are described as not 
>capable of being controlled locally means that they are also not very 
>good for missile defense since the 2 MFDs devoted to them means only two 
>missiles could be targeted.  Though I suppose the missile MFDs could be 
>redeployed to control laser turrets.  
I just have Battle Rider, it doesn't mention how many targets a MFD can fire upon.  

>	Only 3 missile barbettes are installed, with a total of 15 ready 
>missiles, but 5 missile MFDs are available.  Only 4 MFDs are necessary to 
>control 15 missiles, so what is the extra for?

The extra MFD was left over from the time when I had 6 missile turrets.
Starships, listed turrets as having 3, turrets, but I found out that
this was a typo so I changed it to 3 Missile barbettes.  I just forgot
to delete the extra MFD.  


>	You have 28 crew but only 25 workstations.  Are the other 
>workstations in the turrets, or are you carrying extra crew?

Well first of all I made a mistake when I added up the crew, there are
only 27 crew members. Two of these are maintence, and they don't
require Workstations.
 
>	Replace the 4 light lasers with two heavy lasers and 2 of the 1 
>ton PD lasers the design for which I've emailed you before.  This will 
>give your lasers an offensive punch and simultaneously improve your 
>anti-missile defense all while only costing you 2 tons!  If you want, you 
>can take out the workstation, and each laser and MFD is only .5 tons.  Of 
>course, you still need to add the bridge stations for the MFDs.	

I switched to two laser barbettes. They do slightly better damage. 

>	Replace the 3 missile barbettes with one or two custom missile
>bays.  This will increase you salvo size from 15 to 20, so as to take
>advantage of all 5 missile MFDs.  It will also give you easy access to
>your missile reloads if you put them all in reload cradles.  As it stands,
?manually reloading the barbettes takes 1 hour, so the Griffen cannot fire
>an immediate follow-up salvo.  This change takes up only a little more
>space but greatly improves the Griffens offensive capabilities. 

I added a standard 50 Ton missile bay from SSDS, I'll save the custom
Missile Bay for my next SDB, the Chimera. A 900 ton SDB, with over 25 
missile MFDs.  It is intended to sit inside of a gas giant, with dozens
of missiles prelaunched and just passvily waiting for an enemy.  When
an enemy is detected, it activates the waiting missiles and launches
them all at the enemy.  The missiles will have to be modified, so that
they will stay at a constant depth in the gas giant. They will need
contra grav and a thruster to keep them up, since contra grav only gets
rid of 99% of the weight. Does this seem like a viable tactic to everyone?
 
Changes from the original:
I switched from four laser turrets to two laser barbettes.
I switched from missile barbettes to a missile bay.
THe extra mass and volume was taken out of the fuel and cargo.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
I never thought that the SDB as presented in the TNE rulebook was any
good, so I decided to make up my own version. I used SSDS, with FFS
additions.  It used Heplar to allow TNE fans to use it, and it also
keeps the cost down.  Thruster plates would have added another 100 MCr
to the price.  The Griffen uses the 15 ton rule of thumb in FFS.  If a
ship weighs less than 15 tons per displacment ton, it can use the
10tons of thrust per displacment ton rule.  I had to sacrifice some
armor and weaponry to keep this legal. The write up will assume a
Reformation Coaltion campaign, but if change the names to Sylea or
something else, you can use the ship in a Milieu 0 campaign.
 

The Griffen has significant more firepower than the TNE SDB.  It is
also over three times the price.  The main cost comes from the improved
sensors. If you assume that SDBs will only be found inside of Gas
Giants or planetary oceans, linked into a huge sensor net, the poor
sensors of the TNE SDB can be justified.  I thought the Griffen should
be capable of performing a wider range of missions.  The other
increased cost is the extra MFDs to control the large number of
missiles.  There are some tradeoffs in the design.  The Griffen has
less armor than the TNE SDB, it also has less fuel available for the Heplar.  

Write up:
The Griffen SDB was developed by Standard Astronics as a replacment for
the Dragon class of SDBs.  It was thought that the Dragons were unable
to fully protect the system against maruders.  The Griffen is upgunned,
it has replaced the Dragon's laser turrets with laser barbettes.
Instead of missile barbettes, it has a 50 ton missile bay, which will
allow the Griffen to put out many more missiles than the Dragon.   It
also has an improved sensor suite.  The Dragon was designed for
coordinated operation with a planetary sensor net.  The Griffen was
built for this, but also for independent operation.  It also has room
for 10 marines, without forcing the rest of the crew to hot bunk. 

The Griffen was built as a interceptor.  If hostile forces appeared in
system, but didn't assualt the gas giant, then most of the stationary
defenses would be useless.  The Griffen is capable of taking up station
in deep space and waiting for an enemy to appear.  It often does this
near system jump in spots.  Merchants are told to jump into a certain
volume of space. The SDBs can patrol this volume easier than if
merchants come in where ever they want.  Of course Pirates know where
the Merchants will jump into also, but that is what the SDBs are for.  

The inside of the ship is bright and clean.  There is a fair bit of
room for the crew to operate.  There are extra staterooms, either for
ship's troops or to give the crew more room.  The Aubani navy places a
premium on the morale of its sailors.  To help with this, the ship has
an excellent mess.  The ship is too small to carry a full time steward,
but the gunners are used as cooking staff.  The other enlisted crew on
the ship are required to peform kp duty several times a week.  This is
the only way a small ship, can still have freshly cooked meals.  The
other option would be to have several tons of frozen diners in the
cargo bay.  Faced with this option the crew cheerfully pitches in.  
There are also several state of the art entertainment centers for the
crew to relax with.  There is an extensive library of holovids for the
crew to watch.  The crew is also offered incentives to take self paced
computer taught courses.  These courses can be any subject which
intrests the sailor.  Many sailors use these courses to get a start on
a college degree, for a life after the service.  To remind the sailors
of home, there is a large (9m^3) terrarium in the main crew lounge. 
This makes the ship a little less sterile, and also helps out the life
support systems by producing some fresh oxygen.




Griffen SDB

T4 Style Data:
Tons: 400		Volume: 5600m^3	        Cost: 398.04 MCr
Crew: 30		Passengers H/M:0/0	Passengers L:0
Cargo: 10	        Controls:Fib Bridge	Tech Level:12

Size Rating:8 		    Jump Rating:0
Fire Control:4		    G Rating/Manuver Drive:4 (Heplar 90
G-Turns)                                                
                                                  1 G Contra Grav
  	                    Power Plant: 6
50ton Miss Bay 50 (20)      Fuel Rating: 187 (Fusion) /S /R
2x Hvy Lasers 10:3-2-0-0    Meson Screen:0
                            Sand Caster:0 
                            Damper:0
                            A:10 P:4 J:2

			    Armor:30	Structure:14

Notes: Fuel Purifier capable of 280m^3 per hour. Fuel Scoops cover 25%
of the ship allowing it to fill its tanks in 27 minutes. The FPP can
purify a full tank of fuel in just under 9 hours.

  The normal stateroom arrangment is the 10 senior staff get singles,
the rest of the crew doubles up. Troops or passengers can be carried,
which will force more crew members to double up. 

FFS Style Data:

General Data
 Displacment: 400 tons		Hull Armor: 80
 Length: 55.0 m		    	Volume: 5600 m^3
 Price: MCr	442.27          Target Size: S
 Configuration: Wedge SL	Tech Level: 12
 Mass (Loaded/Empty)  5968.53/5371.22 tons.

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 1100MW Fusion Power Plant.  1 year of fuel, 165 m^3
 Jump Performance: Nil
 G-rating:  4 Heplar. 1-G Contra Grav
 G-turns:  90.6 Heplar. 2266.5.5m^3 of fuel. (162 tons) 25m^3 per G-Turn.
 Maint: 197
 
Electronics
 Computer: 2xTL 12 Fib Comps
 Commo: 2x300,000 km EMS,2x1000AU Maser, 300,00km laser com
 Avionics: TL 10+
 Sensors: 2x300,000km EMS, 120,000km PEMS
 ECM/ECCM: 60,000km EMS Jammer
 Controls: Bridge with 16 WS, and 12 other. Low Automation 

Armament
 Offensive: 50 Ton  Missile Bay, 5 Launchers each with 10 missiles.
            2 Laser Barbettes
            10:1/13 40-33-17-8 ROF=100 (Diff -2)            
 Defensive: None
 Master Fire Directors: 5 Missle MFDS, 2 Beam MFDS.

Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended.
 Crew 30: 9 Engineers, 10 Gunners, 2 Maintenance, 3 Electronics, 2
Manuver and 4 Command staff. There are enough staterooms for Ship's
Troops to be carried. If more than 4 ship's Troops are carried, they
will need their own command staff.
 Staterooms:  20 Small Staterooms.  The normal arrangment is the 10
senior staff get singles, the rest of the crew doubles up. Troops or
passengers can be carried, which will force more crew members to double up.
 Other Facilities: Fuel Purifier capable of 280m^3 per hour. Fuel
Scoops cover 25% of the ship allowing it to fill its tanks in 27 minutes.
 Cargo: 144m^3. 2 Large Cargo Hatch. 
 Small Craft: None
 Air Locks: 4
 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1292
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1293



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Meson Screens
[none]
Emperor's Arsenal Question
Re: Darwin Stories
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1291
More CG/M-Drive Questions
High Guard
IG @ Origins?
: Communication Question
CSC Grav Vehicle Design
Salute!
RE: Communication Question
RE: M-Drive Question
Making jump fuel differ at high TL
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:12:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Screens

> >As always, if you want good defence, I say mount more armor. It will
> >absorb hits from any kind of weapon, laser, PA or meson and it requires
> >snip
> 
> Will armour really protect against meson gun hits? Is this T4 canon or am I
> missing something?

Whoops - did I say that? Ah, hm, er... what I meant was that from the way I
read the T4 basic starship combat rules, when you get hit, you lose
armour. Whether you get hit by missles, lasers, PA guns or meson guns, 
the more armour you have, the longer you're likely to last.

I do believe that if a meson gun shot hits (ie. doesn't completely 
go in the wrong direction) it takes some armour but also gets an
internal hit roll automatically. I don't have my rulebook here right
now though, so I could be wrong. Sandcasters, nuclear dampers and
meson screens can stop you from getting hit in the first place.

Sorry about that,
Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:16:34 -0500
From: "Joul, Christopher" <JOUC1@Aerial1.com>
Subject: [none]

Ken You asked:-

>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:46:48 +0000
>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
>Subject: M-Drive Question

Cut Intro

>If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration, 
>how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field 
>rated at 2 Gs?

You don't use the M-Drive you use the Contra Grav lifters which produce
thrust equal to the gravity field (for 1G Contra Grav, usually installed
on starships).  The 25% thrust (or 100% if tail down) gained by
vectoring the engines can then easily lift the ship away from the
planet. 

Someone else mentioned the Fat Trader,

In T4 the Fat trader is an airframe hull, which allows it to take off
like a normal aeroplane (it may require a longer runway though),
assuming the planet has sufficient atmosphere.  For planets without
atmospheres (which are usually low gravity anyway) it would take off in
the usual manner.  No need to use strap on boosters, or unreasonable
hand waving.

Eris wrote:-

>Personally, and you know me <g>, I allow overloading by a few
>percent (up to 30% at best) with increased chances of failure and greatly
>decreased MTBF..and maintenance cycles.  The *skills* of the operator and
>the maintainer are the keys here.  For a maneuver drive the Engineer's
>Asset (skill+attribute) is the % above 100 at which he can "tweak" up the
>drive.  The Pilot's Asset is the % at which he could actually fly the
>drive.  

I like this rule and I think I'll use it in my games, along with the
maintainace rules you suggested afterwards.

Thanks.

Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 10:19:20 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Emperor's Arsenal Question

>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:09:26 -0800
rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough) writes:
[snip]
>My favorite illustration has got to be for the Rifle, Hunting-5 on page 33.
   Close, I'll still go with the TL-5 ACR illustration.

>Quibbles are few; 
[snip]
> Several illustrations, like the mines, plasma cannons, and
>point-defense lasers, do not include a person or vehicle so it is very
>difficult to get an idea of the size of these weapons. 
  Yup.

>The stats for the Machinegun, RF Gauss-12 is missing. 
   They are a few pages back, listed along with another weapon's stats.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"For the quickest descent into the ethical quagmire, the Clinton 
 administration has set a new indoor record." 
         (Howard Kurtz column, The Washington Post, 3/26/95)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 08:17:30 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Darwin Stories

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> >       ObTrav: Anybody got any Darwin stories from Traveller games?
> >Players who
> >*really* boned it up through sheer (lack of) forethought?
> 
> One of my players used a RAM grenade in the alien complex in Shadows to
> take out some of the Alien critters.
> 
> And the rest of the party.
> 
> And he had plenty of time to consider the error of his ways as I ruled that
> he brought the roof down and trapped himself in. Well, actually, he had 8
> hours before his suit failed! ;)
> 

One of my players used his grav belt at full speed in a corridor.
His last words were "punch it". He smoked the far wall and killed 
himself.

Another character was flying an air/raft in the Horde adventure.
The air/raft was full of PC's, gear and two of the Chamax. She was 
flying over a "herd" of Chamax. To get rid of the two on the air/raft,
uttered the now famous (in our group) phrase "hang on, we're gonna
roll". She rolled the air/raft and blewed the Grav Vehicle skill check
badly. The air/raft rolled upside down, most of the PC's fell out
(they weren't strapped in because they were fighting the two Chamax).
The few PC's that didn't, including the pilot, were killed when
the air/raft plunged into the Chamax herd on the ground.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:33:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1291

> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: THUDDD COmments
> 
>   I agree that Meson screens probably have some sort of restrictions
> associated with them - its just that there is nothing in the rules that I
> have been able to find so far that indicates that they are restricted.  As
> defensive weaponry, I'd tend to think there would be less restriction than
> on spinal mounts, let us say, but that's just a feeling.  Perhaps a move
> from the "unrestricted" to the "restricted" list is most logical.

I agree, it would certainly be less restricted than a meson gun, but
you know... meson screens start  at one TL higher than meson guns -
that is, it's easier to discover/build a meson gun than it is to
defend against them. Perhaps it's the meson screen that is the real
military secret. Imagine, after years of blowing ships to pieces
in a single shot with your meson gun, you come across an enemy
who is completely immune to it... yipes!

>   As for the feel of ships designed with meson guns, well, I always liked
> them (and screens) - they were the closest thing that CT had to magic
> weapons, and it was a great way to get the players' attention.

Yeah, they get your attentition alright... I always thought they were
pretty well handwaved, they were certainly thought out better than
thrusters and jump drive.

>   As for meson screens, well, if you have meson guns you gotta have them,
> otherwise in game terms combat becomes nasty, brutish, and short as huge
> spinal mounts blow everything up.  As they are deliniated now, meson
> screens rapidly become more expensive in volume, power, and cash as you
> get above minimal levels.  Small ships can't carry big screens, so the
> dominance of the big meson tubes is preserved. 

Well, yeah - I like my space combat nasty, brutish and short if it's
a meson cannon against someone without a screen. Naval ships that go
into real, big, epic space battles are on a different plane of existance
from the average player's ship - you don't mix the two. If the players
say "We slam the thrusters to full and rush the Imperial crusier",
they should see a lot of turrets coming to bear on them just before
their ship is vapourized, their sandcasters notwithstanding.

Anyways, if people want to mount meson screens on their ships, they
should probably be able to do it, but I'd like to see a situation
where a trader's meson screen is going to make the slightest difference
in real combat.

Ethan

PS. To Eris - ok, so what if it's a magic gun? You can take your new task
 system and your singularity gun and go run whatever game you want!
 Nyah nyah poo poo.

> 
> ______________________________
> Dr. Mark Clark
> Oregon Institute of Technology
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:04:39 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
> Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
> 
> > This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through. 
> 
> I see your point, Richard.  An enterprising young tramp freighter 
> captain with a Jump-2 starship could come in to a situation where 
> only Jump-1 starships operate and clean up.  Nobody would want to use 
> the Jump-1 ships unless all of their cargos were going only 1 parsec 
> away--which it is highly unlikely that they all are going only 1 
> parsec.
> 
> But, let me play devil's advocate here.  Maybe this system evolved 
> because of the economics involved.
> 
> On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation 
> companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used 
> to higher costs for longer distances.
> 
> This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs 
> the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.
> 
> The time in jump space is the same.  The cost for fuel is the same.  
> Since the time is the same, the cost for life support is the same.  
> In fact, I can't think of one expense that is greater if you take 
> your starship 2 parsecs rather than one.  
> 
> Starships with greater jump range have an advantage because they can 
> deliver to more places.  This gives them a step up over the Jump-1 
> guys if a cargo is being sent far.
> 
> But, the Jump-2 guys can offer no advantage over the Jump-1 guys when 
> a cargo is only going one parsec, and this is probably what keeps the 
> Jump-1 guys in business.
> 
> That, and the fact that the Jump-1 guys congregate in the lesser 
> travelled parts of space where the people needing transportation are 
> just glad to see a ship.  Even if you are sending a cargo three 
> parsecs away, you have to weigh the costs of waiting a long time for 
> that Jump-3 starship to show up and take your cargo vs a Jump-1 that 
> can get it one third the way to its destination today--or even take 
> the cargo the full 3 parsecs at three times the cost.
> 
> Is three times the cost worth it?  It is if you can't afford to wait 
> three months before that Jump-3 starship shows up when the 
> Jump-1ship, here today, can get it there in three weeks.
> 
> And, that's just my two cents, for whatever its worth (definitely not 
> two cents, I'm sure!)
> 
> Kenneth.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1291
> ***********************************
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- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:53:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: More CG/M-Drive Questions

****************<QUOTE ON>********************************************

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 19:04:29 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

At 00:46 7/05/97 +0000, you wrote:
>If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration,
>how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field
>rated at 2 Gs?
>
>I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the
>M-Drive.  I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a
>ship can be overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess
>that means that our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really
>produces 4 Gs of acceleration when it is taking off or landing
>planetside.
>
>Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing
>something?
In TNE/FF&S the conta-grav unit nullifies almost all the gravity, so the
drive doesn't have to work against the planet. I'm not sure how it works in
T4.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core
******************************<QUOTE 
OFF>************************************

Based on the fact that you need to have 1g worth of thrust according to all 
the T4 design systems, and the fact that CG is back to the "push against 
gravity well" as it was back in CT/MT.  I believe the CG of T4 works on the 
same premise as a 'repulsorlift' system in that "other Sci-Fi game" :)

If this is so, could it be posible to build a repulsor beam weapon using CG 
technology?  Or would the beam simply press against the plane of highest 
gravity and rip your gun into orbit, or ram it down into the planet? Or is 
it just a question of tech levels?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:39:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: High Guard

Hey, didn't somebody just post a while back that they wished they
had HG?

A friend bought a set of CT books and has an extra HG.  Not being in
the CT for money business, he'll sell it for what he paid for
it---$1.

Any takers?  It'll take a $0.55 stamp to mail, I imagine.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:44:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: IG @ Origins?

Well, I received my Origins schedule in the mail the other day, and had
fun looking through to see what the con was up to (I haven't attended
since San Jose in '94 or so, but I like to keep up with what's going on).

I was surprised, though, not to see any mention of Imperium Games or of
Traveller -- no events or seminars listed in the master schedule, no
advertisements....  I can't recall who's taken over from Joe Walsh as the
IG Answer Man, but it seems a bit puzzling.  Is IG throwing all their
resources into GenCon (which I've never attended), or are they just
holding off a bit on announcing any Origins events?  I know Origins
has been diminishing a bit of late (Steve Jackson Games hasn't attended
since 1994 due to disappointing sales and turnout), but isn't it still
one of the largest in the U.S.?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 10:35:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: : Communication Question

>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

>station and the planet).  Then, we just calculated time based on the
>communication traveling at the speed of light.  It turned out that
>the time lag was around 11 minutes.
> [deletion]
>I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light,
>but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves
>travel in space?

All of those electromagnetic wave/particle things travel at light speed 
in a vaccuum.  

>This could also be applied in starship combat if the distances are
>long enough.

By the time the ships are far enough apart for time lag to have game 
effects, the beams are so spread out that they're ineffective as weapons, 
as far as I know.

>So, the question of this post is:  How do you handle long distance
>communications and time lags in your games?

It depends on the situation, of course.  If the PCs want to communicate 
with NPCs who are light minutes away, they tell me their message, 
continue with whatever they're doing, and then I interrupt with the 
response, etc., keeping good track of game time all the while.  Sometimes 
it doesn't make any difference, and we just handle it as if it were 
instantaneous communications, but still keep track of game time (e.g., 
the conversation took 2 minutes in real time, but consisted of 6 
exchanges between parties one light-minute apart, so 8 minutes of game 
time have elapsed).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:48:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: LrdRhys01@aol.com
Subject: CSC Grav Vehicle Design

I don't understand the instructions for determining grav vehicle speeds in
T4's Central  Supply Catalog. Could someone out there help me with a simple
explanation, and possibly an example. The rules in the book are far from
being clear, and the sample vehicles are no help.










                                                            lrdrhys01@aol.com
                                                                      Terry
L. Rice

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 12:44:05 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Salute!

On 05/07/97 at 10:33 AM,  Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com> said:

> PS. To Eris - ok, so what if it's a magic gun? You can take your new task
>  system and your singularity gun and go run whatever game you want!
>  Nyah nyah poo poo.

I see you've learned to speak Vargr! ;->

You know, it's not the *concept* of the meson cannon I hate..I'm reasonably
comfortable waving my hands over that..I just don't like weapons that
bypass the armor and hit the inside of the ship. That's just not
'estheticly' pleasing.  I *do* like deep site meson cannon for defending
planets though.

As for the singularity gun, the more I think about it the more seriously
I'm taking it.  Traveller already has well developed gravity control,
people have been waving their hands over grav focusing since TNE, so with
the proper hand movements I don't see why we couldn't come up with another
"magic gun."  ;->

I'm not even going to talk about task systems!

And now for something completely different...

    How much load could a lifter lift, if a lifter could lift load?

    How many G could an AG gen, if an AG could gen G?

Eris,
     V'yy frr lbhe zntvp tha naq envfr lbh bar ubaxvat ovt oynpx ubyr!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 10:47:13 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: Communication Question

>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:35:06 +0000
>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

>The question came up of how much of a time lag is there for 
>communications.

All real space traveller communications take place at light speed.  Radio,
radar, maser, and Meson communicators all take place at light speed.  Light
is slowed when going through a refractive medium such as water, but this is
a small enough effect that it really does not matter.

All jump space communications are carried on a vessel, and take a week.

>I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
>but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
>travel in space?

c, the speed of light in a vacuum.

>I see all types of applications for this.  For instance, when a 
>starship first enters a system and locks on to the homing 
>transmission from the starport.  How much of a time lag is there.  
>This could also be applied in starship combat if the distances are 
>long enough.

The homing beacon is always on and always transmitting, so as soon as they
arrive, they get access to the information that was as being sent out
several seconds ago.  There will be a lag before they show up on ground
side scanners, and also a lag before ground side response can be heard by
the vessel.

This is what makes wartime so interesting.  Homing beacons are often off,
and ships leave their transponders off, so "shoot first" responses are far
more likely.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:12:33 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: M-Drive Question

>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:46:48 +0000
>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

>If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration, 
>how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field 
>rated at 2 Gs?

Either it can be overdriven, or CG also nullifies gravity.  I make it be
something that can be overdriven.

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:24:06 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Making jump fuel differ at high TL

I have been considering making fuel usage per jump go down with higher
tech, so a TL12 J1 drive is more efficient than a TL9 J1 drive.  Can anyone
see a way in which this would fundamentally alter canon?  It might make the
difference between battle riders and ships a bit closer than we quite like.
 It also means there are fewer backwaters as the tech level goes up.

Unlike changing the jump time, it seems to preserve major parts of canon,
unlike altering jump time, or making jump an FTL realspace drive.

This will dramatically alter canon, making the majority of vessels in the
1100 era jump 2 capable, but I am willing to live with that

I was thinking of something like making jump drive fuel drop by 10 percent
per tech level.  I am not sure if I want to fiddle with the size of the
jump drive itself, but I likely will.  (My target is to make more interior
room for passengers for civilian ships, thereby dropping passage prices.  I
also want to make bigger guns and more armor feasible.)

Fraction of hull required.
TL	J1	J2	J3	J4	J5	J6
9	11
10	10
11	9.0	20
12	8.1	18	30
13	7.3	16.2	27	40
14	6.6	14.6	24.3	36	50
15	5.9	13.1	21.9	32.4	45	60
16	5.3	11.8	19.7	29.2	40.5	54
17	4.8	10.6	17.7	26.2	36.4	48.6
18	4.3	9.6	15.9	23.6	32.8	43.7
19	3.9	8.6	14.3	21.3	30	39.4

At tech 19, a jump drive plus fuel becomes small enough that a 10 ton craft
can mount a full drive for a 100t ship.  I rule that a flexible jump grid
is hard to make, so that it cannot be plated around a cargo quickly until
tech level 17 or 18.



Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:16:11 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:04:39 +0000
>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

>> This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through. 
...

>On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation 
>companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used 
>to higher costs for longer distances.

It is true, to a lesser extent, in Traveller as well.

>This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs 
>the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.

Not quite true.  A jump 2 capable ship would have a large chunk of its
volume taken up by drives and fuel that make it cost more per passenger or
ton of cargo to operate.  Further, it has to pay off the extra expense
those drives cost.

Even given a jump 2 ship, you pay more for fuel, unless you scoop it.
Admittedly, this is a lesser effect.

>The time in jump space is the same.  The cost for fuel is the same.  
>Since the time is the same, the cost for life support is the same.  
>In fact, I can't think of one expense that is greater if you take 
>your starship 2 parsecs rather than one.  

If you ship is a J2, you have to compete with J1 vessels, so even though it
does not cost you a lot more beyond amortized costs, you are matching
prices with people running cheaper ships.  You just have to hope that you
will make enough more on your J2 hops that the extra drives were worth
installing, which is why a J2 trip should cost more.  J1 ships need to make
two jumps, and J2 ships need to pay off more expensive drives.

In my world, you pay per parsec, with a J2 ship getting you there faster
than a J1 ship, and thus being able to undercut the "two jump" J1 ships
while still making more money per passenger over a two week period.  I am
working on ways to cram more passengers into a ship, so we can drop the
prices of star travel by a significant factor.

BTW, what does it cost now to ship something via an overseas carrier, and
how long does it take?  If nobody knows, I will call a shipping company,
but I suspect someone on the list knows the answer off the top of their
head.  Assume bulk cargo like that carried in Traveller starships.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:54:13 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

[snip]

I know this is an old post, but I kept it around because it mentions
something that has always bugged me. Unfortunately, the rules are quite
clear on this point. Page 97 of T4 says "Passage is always sold on the
basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on jump
distance.... A Jump 3 starship charges the same passage price as a Jump 1
starship."

This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through. The opportunities
for abuse, like buying a ticket for a 200-jump journey and selling the
remaining fare after 1 jump, living cheaper on starships than at fleabag
hostels, starships jumping to empty space and allowing passengers to buy
passage to the next planet or get off here, should be so obvious I will
mention only these few examples. Since the cost in equipment, crew, fuel,
and technology of higher jump numbers will not be compensated by higher
revenues, it would be financially insane for any commercial vessel to have
greater than Jump-1 at any tech level. The only way for ships to avoid this
trap is to only travel back and forth between two planets a single jump
from each other. Not only is this situation absurd, but it is contrary to
the Traveller canon of free traders plying far reaches of space.

[Douglas replies:]  But who is going to sell you a 200 jump ticket?  (Let 
me rephrase that, as I know of several PC's that would take advantage of 
anyone naive enough to try and buy one...)  What starship line will sell 
you a 200 jump ticket at single fare prices?
I don't know how it's run in other campaigns, but this is the way I've 
always seen it played, and play it myself.

Example: Even tho' a ship regularly makes the Efate - Regina (1 jump) run, 
the captain only posts passenger destinations of 1 Jump and cargo 
destinations of 2 jumps down the line.  Yes, he makes sure the rumor mill 
is very aware that he is making the entire run, but you can't have your 
fare caps slapped down for _rumour_.

The only reason I even consider cargo for 2 jumps is to ensure I get 
maximum profit out of the hold, if there is an empty corner, it's a loss. 
 If I can fill the hold on cargo for just the next jump, then I won't 
consider taking on any excess.  Remember, a good broker/trader can (and 
should) make back his pay, plus a generous profit!

With few exceptions, there are almost always more passengers available than 
there are staterooms (otherwise, why would anyone travel via tramp starship 
when luxury starliners make the runs), so why should the starcaptains even 
consider selling multi-jump tickets to travellers?

[snip] 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1293
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1294



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Meson Screens
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Re: Emperor's Arsenal Question
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: THUDDD Comments (long)
Re: [T97#1288] Position on Worlds?
TNS articles for 1113-1115
Re: [T97#1288] Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: Communications Question
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: Communication Question
Re: Re: M-Drive Question
Re: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: M-Drive Question
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Screens

In my continuing discussion with Mark Clark,

> > I would really like someone to put some ships through some combat sequences
> > to see if these defences actually work... The basic ship combat system in the 
> > T4 rulebook is pretty deadly - a few hits and *poof* you've probably lost
> > a drive, power plant or you've plain old exploded. That's bad. If your
> > opponent has more maneuver than you, he'll hit eventually and then you're
> > SOL. 
> 
>   I agree - I've solicited feedback on this issue in the past, but got
> little response.  Looks like few folks actually do ship combat on a
> regular basis, at least with T4 - the folks who responded talked in terms
> of High Guard, mostly.

Hm. Maybe I'm going to have to do some dry runs myself... High Guard is
good and all, but strictly speaking, it isn't the T4 system.

>   True, but if the defensive weaponry for sale is essentially useless (as
> you seem to suggest), why is it out there?  Aside from the possibility
> that it exists to make the crew feel better about their chances of
> survival, I'd tend to say that if the sandcasters and nuclear dampers
> don't work as they should, fix the combat system so they do.

Yeah. That is certainly one way of doing it... it comes down to
whether you think the descriptions should be more "canon" than the
rules. I'm arguing from the point of view that the combat rules are
the "superior canon", though I don't necessarily believe this to be 
true. I think that the point of all of this is not just to come up
with a better ship design, but to see if the combat system jives with
the descriptions we've been given of how things work.
 
> > I still think that if you don't have a meson gun, you don't need a meson
> > screen. I mean, this is like saying 'traders operating near the former
> > USSR should be equipped with anti-surface missile missles to ensure saftey
> > from former Soviet warships". 
> 
>   I think the metaphor that would be more appropriate is "Cars that drive
> around in Mogadishu, Somalia should have guys with Kalashnikovs in the
> back and armor on the sides because there are lots of folks with guns
> about."  My reading of M0 background material leads me to believe that
> interstellar trade outside the Imperium can be dangerous - that's why so
> many folks welcome the coming of the Imperium and the peace and stability
> it brings (not to mention the money).

I have a tendancy to use metaphors a bit excessively, so you'll have to
excuse me if they start to get stretched. Anyhow, your point is well taken,
but, as you'll see a bit further on, I think there is a better analogy...
(I'm not writing this response completely linearly)

> > I mean, really - a ship has to be really
> > stinking huge before it can mount a meson gun that does any appreciable amount
> > of damage. If you're protected from it - so what? The ship will be able to
> > outgun you with it's dozen of laser bays, laser batteries and PA bays.
> 
>   True, which is why you don't have meson screens alone - you mount all
> the other defensive systems as well.  The point of the discussion was not
> to stand up and survive indefinitely - it is to survive just long enough
> to engage the jump drive and run away.  The only defense against meson
> guns is a meson screen - armor does not work, as I go into in more detail
> below.
> 
>   Finally, it is a fundamental misconception that only BIG meson weapons
> are mounted on warships.  QSDS includes a meson bay weapon that does
> (+4)2/3-2-0-0; at 125 tons and only 27.8MW it will fit on a rather small
> ship.  Meson weapons are a key technology for TL-12 navies who fight TL-11
> or less opponents - since the meson guns bypass armor they give a major
> advantage.

Did Meson bays appear in HG or MT? Hm. I saw them in SSDS just now,
for the first time... they're pretty wimpy, except for that whole
going-through-the-armour thing.

> > a) deep meson sites can draw more power in one shot than the Sylean
> > navy will use in a year. OK, maybe not that much, but a lot. Your
> > crappy little meson screen will do little to stop it.
> 
>   True, but the screen reduces the damage, giving you better odds.
> Moreover, not all these sites will be working at peak efficiency - they
> are relics, after all.
> 
>   By the way, I never said that the screens provided complete protection
> against such an attack - just an extra margin of protection at a
> relatively reasonable price.

I wasn't trying to imply that. It's just that the "extra margin of 
protection" for a small meson screen is still pretty small. If
"reduces the damage" removes all chances of internal explosions,
than it's pretty good, but if it just reduces the number of internal
damage rolls from 5 to 1, well, I guess you're better off, but you
still might lose your maneuver drive or explode.

> > b) Why in the universe are you pissing off a planet so much that they're
> > firing their deep meson guns at you???? Stupid!
> 
>   It seems you are not familiar with the planet of TL-16+ robots the
> Vilani encountered during the expansion of the First Empire.  They just
> shot everyone who entered the system with meson weapons - the internal
> explosions scared the Vilani to no end.  It was not until the Rule of Man
> (I think) when meson screen equiped ships were avalible that contact with
> the inhabitants was made (so to speak - those robots were very rude). 

Uh, yeah, I'm unfamiliar with it! Geez, and I consider myself pretty
"up" on Imperial history. I've heard about the TL16 robot-run
self-isolated system, but I didn't know that they introduced the
Vilani to the miracle of the Meson Gun...

>   By the way, that is one reason the Vilani collapsed in the Nth
> Interstellar War - the newly developed Meson weapons the Terrans used were
> just like those mysterious weapons those nasty robots had been using, and
> it scared the Vilani again.

I had thought that the Terrans had given the Vilani their first
taste of being on the wrong end of meson weaponry... gee, that's too
bad, it kinda take some of the punch out of the Terran victory.
The ROM is one of the most intersting period of Imperial history,
IMO.

>   The name of the planet is S-something - again, I hate not having my
> reference material!  Perhaps someone could dig out the name and the place
> where the info first appeared (an issue of Challenge, perhaps?)

Ah, I haven't read many old Challenge issues.

>   Anyway, the point of this is that the inhabitants of the planet (or the
> defense system computer someone left on accidently) may not need a
> rational reason for opening up with their meson gun.  Of course, it always
> helps to be polite. :-)

Hm, well, yes, but it seems kind of odd to spend 20-odd MCr on a defence
for a situation where you're in an unknown system which is hostile,
has deep meson weaponry, which it fires on you, but that also has absolutely
no other means of defence. How many times do GMs plan on using this
setup? 

Now, if you _are_ in that situation, if you have a meson screen, you have 
a few minutes to fire a capsule containing your last will and testament
before the meson gun gets lucky and pentrates the screen, whereas if
you don't have a meson screen, well, no one gets to read your will. It's
a pretty small difference.

> > As always, if you want good defence, I say mount more armor. It will
> > absorb hits from any kind of weapon, laser, PA or meson and it requires
> > no power, gunners or MFDs. 
> 
>   It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of meson weaponry here.
> They bypass armor and cause internal damage directly.  More armor does not
> help - only meson screens are armor against meson weapons.  This has been
> part of Traveller since CT days, and still is - the T4 combat system
> mentions this, if I am not mistaken.

I understand how meson weaponry works, I made a mistake in my wording.
In T4 (please, someone correct me if I'm wrong!), all weapons, if they
hit, do armour damage. Even meson weapons. The bonus with meson guns 
is that they get a free roll (multiple rolls?) on the internal explosion/
damage table.  There isn't anything that can be done with a meson gun
that can't be done with a lucky 10Mj laser shot though. The more
armour you have, the longer you can stand up in battle, regardless of
what's shooting at you and as long as your don't get a "ship explodes"
roll.

I think tonight I am going to have to go through my T4 rulebook in detail
to put this to rest (not that I'm absolutely sure I'm right - I'm just getting
a bit tired of making arguments based on my poor memory of the T4 rules.)

>   Armor has other problems - it is heavy, particularly on large ships, so
> it inhibits acceleration.  It is also not an option for QSDS designers,
> since armor is fixed in the hulls they can use.

Which is why lightly armoured traders shouldn't get into fights. The idea
that you can have a trader that can put up even a modest defence against
even the crappiest military ship is silly, IMO. Having a meson screen
on a trader is like wearing a bulletproof vest to the movies - slight
overkill. (It isn't to say no one gets shot in movie theaters, but it's
fairly rare). Also, some worlds might not like such heavily defended
ships - "He wouldn't have a meson screen if he wasn't lookin' for
trouble..."

> > Sandcasters, yes, useful. Nuclear dampers, 
> > yes, useful, perhaps even necessary to transport certain types of 
> > nasty radioactive cargos which can be quite lucrative. But meson
> > screen? I'd mount advanced EMM before I'd mount a meson screen and
> > it's kinda silly to have a trader with super-advanced EMM (for the
> > most part).
> 
>   We just have to agree to disagree here, but I think you might want to
> reconsider based on armor not being effective against meson weaponry.  I'd
> also argue that a trader in a high-risk area might well have a use for
> advanced EMM.

Again, I realize that armour isn't a defence against meson weaponry per se
 - it does help, uh, absorb the blows so to speak. As for EMM, yeah, it
might be useful, depending on who you're planning on trading with. And
I never said it was useful - I said I'd mount it before I'd mount a meson
screen, making it the second-least-useful thing for a trader.

>   Remember, this is an "Exploratory Trader," going to places outside the
> Imperium that by definition are less safe.  Precautions are essential that
> in normal trading practice in the Imperium would be unwarrented.

Well, if it's so unsafe that you need to protect your traders against
serious para-military threats, I'd say to send in more than one ship.
Then you can have one ship fight while the one with all the goodies in the
hold runs and warms up ye ol' jump drive.

To use a metaphor again, Brinks trucks don't have bank tellers in them -
they have security guards in them. In banks, you don't give each teller
a gun. You have tellers, you have security guards. If you're sending a 
trader into territory that's _that_ dangerous, send an armed escort.
(Though it better be worth a _lot_ of money to go to that kind of trouble)

Another option - can anyone but the Syleans do 3G inertial compensation?
If not, stick everyone in G-tanks and you're guaranteed to be able to
outrun any other human ship in space. Pulling 1 to 3 Gs away from trouble
is probably as good a defence as sandcasters and dampers are.


Tonight I will consult my rulebook and try to find some answers to my own
questions to resolve this!

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:44:56 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

On Mon, 05 May 97 22:27:29 -0500, you wrote:

> Our *hunk* at 12, 12, 12, can run 72 seconds at 8 meters per second, or 576
> meters!  This is Michael Johnson class.

Or Donovan Bailey, depending on what side of the boarder you live on
:)

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:43:08 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Emperor's Arsenal Question

On Tue, 6 May 1997 21:09:26 -0800, you wrote:

> The stats for the Machinegun, RF Gauss-12 is missing.

Stats for this weapon can be found at the very bottom of p. 82 (listed
as "RF Gauss-12"), as well as on p. 84 and p. 109 (listed as "Rifle RF
Gauss-12").

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:50:37 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

On Wed, 7 May 1997 00:03:59 -0700, you wrote:

> Currently, I allow for overdriving the M-drives.  There are 
> some...interesting, details that must be allowed for.  IE, how does a 
> loaded Fat Trader, sitting horizontal on a Size B world, generate enough 
> thrust upward, to get the tail down so that the primary vector can generate 
> that 400% thrust?  According to the SOM, a maximum of 25% thrust (that's 1G 
> at 400% overdrive) can be generated 90 degrees from the attitude of the 
> M-drive plates.

Actually, the traditional CT fat trader is a 400t subsidized
merchant-- a ship that is built around an airframe hull.  The wings
are what provides the lift necessary to allow a fully loaded fat
trader to lift off.  Of course, you have to fall back on the
"overdrive" theory for airless worlds.

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:03:46 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments (long)

>From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

>  By the way, that is one reason the Vilani collapsed in the Nth
>Interstellar War - the newly developed Meson weapons the Terrans used were
>just like those mysterious weapons those nasty robots had been using, and
>it scared the Vilani again.
>
>  The name of the planet is S-something - again, I hate not having my
>reference material!  Perhaps someone could dig out the name and the place
>where the info first appeared (an issue of Challenge, perhaps?)

Sabmyyqs?  I've got to bring all of that stuff to the office (then I'll never get any 
work done).  I think it's in Travellers' Digest, not Challenge or JTAS.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 17:00:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1288] Position on Worlds?

Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> writes...

T::>I'm doing a writeup of one of my worlds in my
 ::>Terran Confederation setting and wanted to add
 ::>a position for the planets starport, when I
 ::>ran into problem. How do you give places positions
 ::>on a world other than Earth? Would it make sense
 ::>to say 10 degrees East of some line running through
 ::>some specified place? How would you know where this
 ::>place is when entering orbit? The North-South (latitude)
 ::>doesn't pose any problems, but how would you handle
 ::>the longitude? Any thoughts.

 Well, in any discussion I've seen, what ends up happening is
 that the line that goes through the center of the most
 prominent and distinctive feature visible from orbit becomes
 the zero meridian for mapping (Olympus Mons, for example, on
 Mars); once the planet is colonized, it sometimes stays the
 same; sometimes it gets shifted to the site of touchdown, or
 the center of First Settlement.

 On tidally-locked worlds (1:1 rotation/revolution lock), the
 job becomes a little easier; zero is either the noon line
 (most often), the sunrise line, or the sunset line.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  The sight of death frightens them [Earthers].

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:22:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: TNS articles for 1113-1115

Someone asked for TNS articles for 1115, I don't remember who...

The reason that there are no TNS articles posted for the years 1113-1115
is that there ARE no TNS articles for those years. GDW jumped time forward
after the end of the FFW to the beginning of the rebellion, this was the
transition period between CT and MT (IIRC).

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 17:00:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1288] Re: Contact: Sayat

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) writes...

T::>>That problem is:  If mechanical assistance for implantation is
 ::>>required, how did the race survive the period between the
 ::>>destruction of Ancient civilization (assuming that they were
 ::>>servants of the Ancients) and the rise of their own
 ::>>technological civilization?  Either there's some way around the
 ::>>mechanical assistance problem, or self-fertilization is
 ::>>successful at at least a replacement rate.

T::>Well, this might be taken as strong evidence that they weren't seeded by
 ::>the Ancients, but are spinoffs of early Solomani colonists.  I'm trying to
 ::>not specify this, but leave it open for people to pick as (and if) they
 ::>like.

 Gotcha.  But it still seems a little "off".  If you know what I
 mean.

T::>As far as the 'mechanical assistance' goes, I'm not talking about anything
 ::>fancy here, no test-tube baby stuff -- just a variation on the infamous
 ::>'turkey baster' approach.  Low-tech in the extreme; like maybe TL-2 stuff?
 ::>If the Vilani could surive on a planet where nothing was edible without
 ::>chemical processing, a little thing like this seems like child's play.
 ::>After all, if you screw up as a Sayat, you just don't have a kid that time
 ::>around; if you're Vilani and screw up, you starve, get sick, or are
 ::>poisoned.

 You make it sound so attractive... :)

T::>The idea was to keep gross anatomical changes to the Sayat minimal -- no
 ::>ovipositors.  I wanted them to be clearly genetically engineered but not
 ::>necessarily *efficiently* engineered.  Hence stuff like the non-compact
 ::>frame in a cold environment, and the inability of their eyes to deal with
 ::>strong (local!) daylight.  I'd like their origins to be a bit of a
 ::>*mystery* instead of one more off-the-shelf "300,000 year old ant-farm that
 ::>Grandfather left behind" / "Solomani bio-fascist {master race, slave race,
 ::>toy race} gone their own way."  Hell, send your PCs out to investigate.
 ::>Have some Hiver meddle with 'em for reasons unknown.  Have the SolSec take
 ::>an unseemly interest in their conclusions.  Have them wake up some mutant
 ::>Droyne from hibernation.  Have the Sayat start shooting at everone.  It'll
 ::>be fun.

 Works for me.  But I wouldn't exactly think that the change
 that I suggested below is much beyond minimal...

T::>In RPG terms, besides the Traveller background, my guiding vision has been
 ::>"Macho Women With Guns" meets "Call of Cthulhu," I suppose.  In Alpha
 ::>Complex.

T::>(Do I qualify for a position in the Grand Heresiarchy?)

T::>>My suggestion:  Make them not need the mechanical assistance
 ::>>under any circumstances; from a strictly external physical
 ::>>viewpoint, make them hermaphrodites; genetically, there are no
 ::>>gender-selection chromosomes as there are in most human races.

T::>Not sure I follow you here -- *do* you mean gender here, or sex?  Yeah,
 ::>they're all 46-XX in terms of their genetic sex; like I say, I'd rather
 ::>keep anatomical changes to a minimum to give that jerry-rigged impression.

 Yes, you and I agree on the genetics.  I'm merely suggesting a
 somewhat different physical arrangement.  Not _significantly_
 different from the main run of humanity, or from your
 gedankendesign for the Sayat, but different enough to get
 people wondering - and _not_ jury-rigged; I don't see _any_
 geneering team finding that acceptable.  What if you don't have
 a turkey baster or materials to make one?

 And are you referring to these "dangly bits" (or at least the
 most prominent bit) I got here as an ovipostor? (Well, no,
 because it doesn't postor ovis, but you know what I mean...)
 Even ova, which are pretty large as cells go, are small enough
 to negotiate the route...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  I'm not lost, I'm locationally challenged.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:20:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Communications Question

> > >I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
> > >but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
> > >travel in space?
> >
> > At light speed, all electromagnetic radiation travels at the same speed in
> > a vacuum. In other media (air, glass, etc.) the speed is different, though
> > I don't know if it varies by frequency.
> 
> Yep, light is light is light. The difference between radio waves and gamma
> rays is not their speed, but their energy. Now, does the speed of light vary
> by frequency if it's not travelling through a vacuum?

That's why I subscribe to this list--to be reminded of something that 
I should already know.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:20:49 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

> I wish I had a copy of that book.  ;-> I know it is supposed to do a good
> job of describing DGP's idea of how the technology worked, but does it give
> really good descriptions of what each of the crew is actually doing?

Yes.  The chapters are:

Ch1  Maneuver Drive

Ch2  Flight Controls

Ch3  Jump Drive

Ch4  Power Plant and Fuel

Ch5  Sensors, Communicators, and Transponders

Ch6  Main Computer and Security

Ch7  Hull and Environment

Ch8  Cargo and Passangers

Ch9  Weapons and Screens

Ch10 Crew Duties



And, besides this, there are extended game rules in the back of the 
book for starship operations.  Things like airlock cycling, control 
settings for iris valves, and antihijack tranq gas are covered.

You can also role play all of the tasks involved in take off and 
landing of a ship through to jump point.  The books lists tasks for 
each crew position to make.

And, there's procedures for wilderness refueling from gas giants, 
oceans, icy moons, asteroid belts, etc, as well as annual maintenance 
notes, jump mishaps, and basic repair guides for all systems on the 
ship.

To answer your question, chapter 10 deals directly with crew duties, 
but throughout the book, you get an idea of what the appropriate crew 
member has to do.

For example, in the flight controls section, theres a lengthy section 
of all of the variables a navigator has to deal with when plotting a 
course for either normal space or jump space.

I love this book.  I recommend you find it if you don't have it.

> Eris,
>     if I keep this up you'll think I'm a detail freak! ;->

No, I love details.  The gods lie in the details and make the game 
more enjoyable.  Unfortunately, my players don't always agree with 
me.

"Why do we need to know how the J-Drive works?  Isn't it enough that 
it just goes?"

Oh, brother.  You see what I mean.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: 07 May 1997 21:20:56 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Communication Question

>I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
>but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
>travel in space?

Speed of light.  Get a copy of the electromagnetic spectrum from a high
school physics textbook, and reach the chapeter on electromagnetic radiation;
it should explain all of these details in terms that a non-technical person
can easily understand.

(This isn't a put-down, by the way.  High-school texts are usually very good
introductions when you know nothing/little about a subject.)

------------------------------

Date: 07 May 1997 21:32:36 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: M-Drive Question

>I wish I had a copy of that book [SOM].  ;-> I know it is supposed to do a
good
>job of describing DGP's idea of how the technology worked, but does it give
>really good descriptions of what each of the crew is actually doing?  

Yup.  Not to mention showing you interior illustrations (by Rob Caswell) so
you can show them what the bridge etc _looks_ like.  I have several copies,
but won't sell any! 

Seriously, this book is well-worth getting.  For campaigns that spend a lot
of time on starships, it is an invaluable resource, providing lots of
background detail without slowing down gameplay.

------------------------------

Date: 07 May 1997 21:28:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>Page 97 of T4 says "Passage is always sold on the
>basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on jump
>distance.... A Jump 3 starship charges the same passage price as a Jump 1
>starship."

I've always assumed that most ships only accept passengers for one jump at a
time.  Thus, for me, this rule only concerns occasions when a ship captain
decides to accept passengers for several worlds (presumably because there
aren't enough passengers for just the next world).  I would furthermore rule
(if necessary) that such passages aren't transferable.

Thus, if I am trading from Echiste to Tureded via Pirema in a J1 ship, I
would look for passengers to Pirema.  If there aren't enough, I would also
look for passengers to Tureded, but I would still only charge the
Tureded-bound passengers one fare.  I get less money, they must spend longer
in transit.

I guess this means that I apply that rule to player-captains only, not
player-passengers.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 23:08:26 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

On Wed, 07 May 97 02:21:14 -0500, you wrote:

> On 05/07/97 at 12:46 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
> said:
> 
> > I've been educating my players (and myself) on the workings of their 
> > starship.  I'm using the Starship Operator's Manual as a guide.
> 
> I wish I had a copy of that book.  ;-> I know it is supposed to do a good
> job of describing DGP's idea of how the technology worked, but does it give
> really good descriptions of what each of the crew is actually doing?  

It mine!  Mine, mine, mine, mine, MINE! :)

IMHO, SOH is one of the best supplements produced for the Traveller
universe-- from a role-playing POV.  Very descriptive.

> > I spotted the short paragraph in the SOM about overdriving the  M-Drive. 
> > I take it that their explanation is that the M-Drive of a  ship can be
> > overdriven by up to 400% for a very short time.  I guess  that means that
> > our ship, which produces 1 G acceleration, really  produces 4 Gs of
> > acceleration when it is taking off or landing  planetside.
> 
> > Is this the explanation you use in your games, or am I missing 
> > something?
> 
> That's the SOM explanation, sure enough, I've heard it rated,
> debated, and berated often enough!  ;-> It makes sense to me that you could
> "overpower", ie. run your equipment at over 100%, for a short period, but
> I've always questioned 400%.

The 400% rule was based on the premise that thruster plates provide
100% thrust to the rear of the plates, tapering off sharply to 25%
along its edges (ie: perpendicular to the normal thrust axis), and
finishing up with 10% forwards (for braking, I guess).  a 1G maneuver
drive could normally produce only .25G while hovering.  The 400%
overdrive allows the ship to hover on a 1G world with its deck plates
aligned with the surface of the planet.

Overdrive is only capable for a few minutes at best, which won't
effect starship combat (using 30 minute turns) but which will allow
ships to take off vertically and orientate themselves so that they are
pointed skywards before ascending to orbit.

> Personally, and you know me <g>, I allow overloading by a few
> percent (up to 30% at best) with increased chances of failure and greatly
> decreased MTBF..and maintenance cycles.  The *skills* of the operator and
> the maintainer are the keys here.  For a maneuver drive the Engineer's
> Asset (skill+attribute) is the % above 100 at which he can "tweak" up the
> drive.  The Pilot's Asset is the % at which he could actually fly the
> drive.  

How do your free traders take off then?  I assume that maneuver rives
in your universe cannot pivot to produce 100-130% thrust in *any*
direction.  Since free traders aren't equipped with wings, do you use
the contragrav idea from TNE?



James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:31:15 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

Kenneth Said

>> This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through.


[snip]

>On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation
>companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used
>to higher costs for longer distances.
>
>This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs
>the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.

Not so as the ship repayments are higher for a high jump ship.

>Starships with greater jump range have an advantage because they can
>deliver to more places.  This gives them a step up over the Jump-1
>guys if a cargo is being sent far.

They also cost a lot more.

>But, the Jump-2 guys can offer no advantage over the Jump-1 guys when
>a cargo is only going one parsec, and this is probably what keeps the
>Jump-1 guys in business.

Most cargo probably only goes one hex or a least only has to travel one hex 
at a time (i.e. is not urgent or time related).

>That, and the fact that the Jump-1 guys congregate in the lesser
>travelled parts of space where the people needing transportation are
>just glad to see a ship.  Even if you are sending a cargo three
>parsecs away, you have to weigh the costs of waiting a long time for
>that Jump-3 starship to show up and take your cargo vs a Jump-1 that
>can get it one third the way to its destination today--or even take
>the cargo the full 3 parsecs at three times the cost.

>Is three times the cost worth it?  It is if you can't afford to wait
>three months before that Jump-3 starship shows up when the
>Jump-1ship, here today, can get it there in three weeks.

I would expect Jump 1 vessels to make the bulk of the transport pool 
avaiable to traders.  This is why mains are so valuable and why being off a 
main really sucks.
(for the unintiated a main is a group of worlds linked on a J1 route).  I 
expect that most cargo shippers probably do send goods on the first 
starship travelling towards their detinsation and it is sent from world to 
world via J1 transport (not always the same ship).  However, going to the 
effort of travelling to a world J3 away from anywhere else should have some 
rewards.  And some cargos are time related (i.e. they spoil, or they are 
late fulfilling their contract to the Imperail Navy <gasp!>

Brody Dunn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1294
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1295



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

FW: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Traveller Chat
Re: Communications Question
Re: Griffen SDB Mk II
Re: Communication question
Re: Armor Question
Re: Spectacular Failure...
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
TNE: New Careers
Re: Re: M-Drive Question
Re: M-Drive Question
Penal colonies, Lucan
Re: M-Drive Question
Trains Planes and Jump Drives
WINMAIL.DAT
Transport costs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:37:28 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: FW: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>After reading both arguments I have to say it is probably a combination of 
>both systems. A passenger going longer distances should pay more, as well 
>as paid charters and the like. However in situations where the Trader has 
>purchased the cargo and plans to sell it off world the price should be 
>fixed. After all why would a system purchase goods from 5 parsecs away and 
>pay high prices when they have a high TL neighbor.

Speculative trade is definately not covered by the increased shipping charges.  Thats why it's speculative :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 18:58:41 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

On 05/07/97 at 08:44 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

> On Mon, 05 May 97 22:27:29 -0500, you wrote:

> > Our *hunk* at 12, 12, 12, can run 72 seconds at 8 meters per
> > second, or 576 meters!  This is Michael Johnson class.

> Or Donovan Bailey, depending on what side of the boarder you live on :)

Actually, I wasn't trying to slight Mr Bailey, not at all!  At 100 meters
he's the "World's Fastest Human", no question about it..until somebody
breaks his record anyway.  ;-> 

I invoked Michael Johnson's name in relation to running that fast for 400+
meters.  

So, is the "great race" still scheduled for this summer? 

Eris,
    who could beat either one of them in the 800 meters, but only if
    he had a 750 meter headstart.  ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:19:30 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

We are trying the High Guard topic again, with Shadowcat leading the 
discussion.  I will be there this week, in case any of you are 
wondering if I'm just a figment of your imagination <G>

We'll begin at 7:30pm CST, Thursday evening, on IG's server, 
www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 or 6666.

I'll be a half hour or so late, since I can't make it til at least 
8:00pm CST :-)

As always, if you have any questions, please email me.  I will log as 
much of the session as I can for those of you who want copies.  I'll 
try to get a complete copy from someone who gets there on time.

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:51:34 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Communications Question

At 09:45 7/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Yep, light is light is light. The difference between radio waves and gamma
>rays is not their speed, but their energy. Now, does the speed of light vary
>by frequency if it's not travelling through a vacuum?
>
>Next time it rains, turn your back to the sun. If you see a big arc
>of white light in the sky, the speed of light is constant for all
>frequencies. If you see a bunch of different coloured bands, it varies. ;)
>
>Ethan
OK, sarcasm aside, does that mean that the different refractive indexes for
differing frequencies of light are due to them having different speeds
through the medium they're in?

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 13:02:42 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Griffen SDB Mk II

At 09:59 7/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I added a standard 50 Ton missile bay from SSDS, I'll save the custom
>Missile Bay for my next SDB, the Chimera. A 900 ton SDB, with over 25 
>missile MFDs.  It is intended to sit inside of a gas giant, with dozens
>of missiles prelaunched and just passvily waiting for an enemy.  When
>an enemy is detected, it activates the waiting missiles and launches
>them all at the enemy.  The missiles will have to be modified, so that
>they will stay at a constant depth in the gas giant. They will need
>contra grav and a thruster to keep them up, since contra grav only gets
>rid of 99% of the weight. Does this seem like a viable tactic to everyone?

Perhaps, but they'll be quite big, after you put enugh fuel to handle
station keeping in a GG, given the normal weather you find there. I'd go
for putting them in orbit, as most GGs have at least small rings (assuming
our solar system is somewhat representative) so they could be hidden in them.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:57:33 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Communication question

At 10:01 7/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>	Transmission delay: Masers, lasercomm, et al. go at light
>speed or slightly slower in certain media...  radio signals might
>actually go much slower because the signal doesn't always go in a
>straight line to its target.  BTW, if you try to communicate with
>someone on a planet, wouldn't they be out of reach half of the time
>because they're on the wrong side of the planet?  How many
>satellites/repeaters would you need to ensure that you can get in
>touch with anybody anywhere on a planet from any angle of approach?
>(I'm thinking 6 at least, like a cube around the planet)

Three geosynchronous commsats will cover everything except for up/down by
the poles. They are also easy to use, because their relative postion
doesn't change. You can get better high latitude coverage by having them in
slightly tilted orbits, but then they move over time, so you need a more
sophisticated comms system.
 
>	A meson comm signal would normally decay long before passing
>thru the planet...

Mesons don't interact with normal matter, so as long as they're targetted
at the communicator it doesn't matter whether or not the whole planet is in
between.
  
R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:24:10 -0700
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Armor Question

- ----------
> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Armor Question
> Date: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 5:35 PM
> 
> Let me get the list's opinion on this--
> 
> I've been trying to incorporate CT/MT/TNE armor types into the T4 
> game mechanics.  I need Armor Values for things like Flak Jackets, 
> Cloth Armor, and Combat Armor.
> 
> My first thought was to redesign each piece of armor using FFS, but 
> since that is not out yet for T4, I'm going to have to wait.
> 
> In the mean time, I've been comparing MT AV's to T4 AV's, and these 
> look the closest to what T4 is using.  The TNE AV's are much too 
> small.
> 
> For example, in MT, Mesh Armor is AV 2.  Coincidentally, in T4, Mesh 
> Armor is also AV 2.
> 
> But, I run into some problems with other armor types.  The CSC states 
> that Battle Dress-14 would be AV 10.  In the MT Player's Manual, 
> Battle Dress-14 is AV 18!  That's a huge difference--almost twice.
> 
> Making other comparisons between flex, cloth, and combat armor, it 
> seems that MT AV's are pretty close to T4 AV's.
> 
> The question is:
> 
> What is your opinion on using MT AV's with the T4 system?
> 
> I've got to find a way to incorporate these armor types into T4.  As 
> it is, there is not that much armor to choose from for T4.  
> Basically, you've got Battle Dress and Flex.  
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Kenneth.


i agree.... i find that T4 needs more armour types.. i've gone threw some
type's
like Combat Armour.. wich i like to use for my players... since nobody
wants them to
be using Battle Dress even though the TL-9 version isn't to bad.... for
PC's i would pre-
fer not to give it to them.. unless i knew i could regain it back... like
offer it for a mission
and make sure they hand it in again....


					- Rob


farpoint@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:26:27 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Spectacular Failure...

>> Next game's on the 25th - I'll give it a try... We were trying to tie SF
>> somehow to one's skill level.  That is, the likelihood of SF is not only
>> related to task difficulty but also to skill of tester.

You could try my house rule: rolling 3 sixes on a task roll is automatic
failure, rolling 3 sixes and above your target is spectacular failure. For
example, if your target number is 20 and you roll 3 sixes, you
automatically fail even if the roll was less than 20. If you roll 3 sixes
and the roll is above 20 you fail spectacularly.

>You've basically got two problems with tieing SF to skill level.
>First, the higher skill level, the lower chance you want SF to be.

The higher your target number, the lower the chance you will roll above it,
so my rule passes.

>The second problem you have is that, even if you come up with an
>inverse number, your probabilities are going to get smaller the more
>dice you throw.

The more dice you throw, the higher the average roll. Higher rolls have
higher probability of exceeding your target number, so with my rule the
probabilities get higher the more dice you throw.

My SF rule also makes highly skilled characters better at all tasks.
Consider characters with target numbers of 17 and 20. Under the regular
rules both characters perform identically with 3-die task rolls (using T4
or KBv2 tasks) since both can only fail spectacularly. But with my SF
system a roll of 18 would be a SF only for the first character, so the
better-skilled character does better on typical tasks. Rolling 3 or more
sixes on more difficult tasks will be a SF on 18 or more for the first
character, but only on 21 or more for the second character, so
highly-skilled characters do better again even on difficult tasks.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:26:32 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation
>companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used
>to higher costs for longer distances.
>
>This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs
>the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.

I beg to differ. A starship that jumps 2 parsecs instead of 1 will have 50%
larger and more expensive drives, and double jump fuel storage space and
cost. This will increase the cost of shipping and reduce the revenues from
passengers and cargo. Retrofitting a free trader with Jump-2 will increase
operating expenses slightly and reduce its earning potential by about 25%.
Also, Jump-1 is a lower tech level so the drives will be cheaper if you use
the Merchant Prince rules, plus they can be repaired or overhauled cheaper
on more planets.

>Ships with Jump-1 drives but fuel storage for multiple jumps will
>be slower and thus less profitable - they take more weeks per trip,
>and thus can make less trips per year to pay those mortgage payments
>or keep those shareholders happy.

Not true; Jump-1 and Jump-2 both take exactly one week and can make the
same number of trips per year. The difference is that Jump-2 costs more and
delivers less.

Most posters seem to charge the given rate for each jump. Unfortunately
even this will not make Jump-2 profitable because Jump-2 ships cost more
for less usable volume. Unless traders can charge more for longer jumps,
anyone who carries passengers or cargo over 1 parsec will go bankrupt. I
think they can charge more; if you were travelling 3 parsecs wouldn't you
be willing to pay a little more to get there in one week instead of 3?
Especially if the trip was in a cabin the size of a washroom.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:48:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: TNE: New Careers

I've been rewriting the Education/Careers section from TNE.  (My copy of
TNE has *fallen apart*; this section is now a packet of loose papers in a
folder...  sigh!)  While rewriting this section, I'm also incorporating my
"house rule" modifications, as well as a few new careers.  I thought some
of you might like to see these new careers.  

I sent a copy of the two civilian careers to Dave Nilsen a few years back.  
They were two careers from Dark Conspiracy that didn't make it into TNE, 
so I thought I'd offer a TNE version of them.  I've "tweaked" them since 
then (especially the Gambler career).  

I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.  

Franklin

**************************************************************************
Clergy (Civilian)
  Even in the 58th Century, people still have spiritual needs.  
  Your character is one of the people who attend to those needs.  
Prerequisites: 
  EDU 4+ and CHR 5+.  
  Philosophy/Theology 3+.  
First Term Skills: History 1, Leadership 2, Persuasion 2, 
  Philosophy/Theology 2, Psychology 1.  
Subsequent Term Skills: Charm, Determination, Social Science.  
All Terms 
Special Adventure: 8+ for Language, Medical, Explore, Fine Arts, 
  Interaction, Physical Science, Technician, Vehicle.  
Promotion: 7+, DM +1 if INT 6+.  
Contacts: One per term, any.  
Other Effects: +1 SOC per promotion.  

Gambler (Civilian) 
  From the earliest days of history, there have been those who made 
  their living at games of chance.  Why not your character, also?  
Prerequisites: 
  INT 6+ and CHR 6+.  
  Gambling 3+.  
First Term Skills: Gambling 2, Luck 2, Streetwise 1, Charm 2, 
  Perception 1.  
Subsequent Term Skills: Luck, Charm, Perception, Vice.  
All Terms 
Special Adventure: 8+ for Slug Weapon (Slug Pistol), Language, Crime, 
  Explore, Melee, Vehicle.  
Promotion: 8+, DM +1 if INT 8+, DM +1 if CHR 8+.  
Contacts: One per term, specialist (Gambling), criminal, entertainment, 
  or law enforcement.  
Other Effects: 
  Two Secondary activities per term.  
  +1 SOC per promotion.  
  When computing income, roll a Difficult test of Gambling: 
    Outstanding Success: Use 1D6 x Gambling asset instead of SOC.  
    Success: Use 1D3 x Gambling asset instead of SOC.  
    Failure: Use Gambling asset instead of SOC.  
    Catastrophic Failure: No income this term.  In addition, roll an 
      Average test of INT to avoid spending the next term in the 
      Prisoner career (1D3+1 terms if Catastrophic Failure for this 
      test of INT).  
  If Homeworld Tech = Early Stellar+, 1 ship DM per Special Adventure 
    for a Yacht.  

Reserve/Guard Force (Military) 
  This "career" is undertaken by an ex-military character at the *same* 
  time as he takes a civilian career.  
Prerequisites: 
  Prior military career.  
  Must meet all Prerequisites for that military career.  
  Must simultaneously serve in a civilian career that doesn't prohibit 
    secondary activities.  
  Cannot have any outstanding obligations of military service (from 
    Military/Flight Academies).  
All Terms 
Commission: As per the military career, with DM -2.  
Skills: As per the military career.  
Special Duty: As per the military career, with DM +2.  Having a Special 
  Duty for the military career prohibits having a Special Assignment in 
  the civilian career for that term.  
Promotion: As per the military career, with DM -2.  
Contacts: One per term, military.  
Other Effects: 
  Secondary activity must be chosen from Subsequent Terms Skills for the 
    military career.  
  Resolution of the civilian career is unaffected by this career (except 
    for Special Duty; see above).  
  The character receives half (round down) the usual number of ship DMs 
    from the military career.  

**************************************************************************
These careers mention a couple of new skills from my campaign.  

Luck (INT) - Determination: 
This skill functions just as described in a back issue of _TTC_ and in
Dark Conspiracy.  This skill is TNE's version of Jack-of-all-Trades.  

Philosophy/Theology (EDU) - Social Science: 
This skill functions just as described in T4.  

**************************************************************************
Also, for the various "illegal" careers (Criminal, Corsair, Rebel, etc.),
the number of terms served as a Prisoner *can* be more than one, depending
on just how bad the character fails its Average test of INT.  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 21:38:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Re: M-Drive Question

On 05/07/97 at 09:32 PM,  Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

> > I wish I had a copy of that book [SOM].  ;-> I know it is supposed to do
> > a good job of describing DGP's idea of how the technology worked, but does it
> > give really good descriptions of what each of the crew is actually
> > doing?  

> Yup.  Not to mention showing you interior illustrations (by Rob Caswell)
> so you can show them what the bridge etc _looks_ like.  I have several
> copies, but won't sell any! 

Boo! Hiss! Hoarder!  ;->  I *really* wish I had a copy of that book!

Where is Roger Sanger, and what is he doing? ;-> Doesn't he know there's a
market out here for the old DGP material?  Yeah, yeah I know..copywrite and
all that.

Any chance that CORE or IG is going to do the same sort of thing, one of
these days?  


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 21:50:12 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

On 05/07/97 at 05:20 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> > I wish I had a copy of that book.  ;-> I know it is supposed to do a good
> > job of describing DGP's idea of how the technology worked, but does it give
> > really good descriptions of what each of the crew is actually doing?

> Yes. 

> And, besides this, there are extended game rules in the back of the  book
> for starship operations.  Things like airlock cycling, control  settings
> for iris valves, and antihijack tranq gas are covered.

> You can also role play all of the tasks involved in take off and  landing
> of a ship through to jump point.  The books lists tasks for  each crew
> position to make.

<hugh sigh>  I really *really* wish I had a copy of this book! ;->

> I love this book.  I recommend you find it if you don't have it.

It's not like I haven't gone looking.  All you hoarders just won't give up
your copies! <whine whine> ;->

I have very little stuff from the MT era, mostly that's fine, but SOM and
WBH I wish I hadn't missed.

> > Eris,
> >     if I keep this up you'll think I'm a detail freak! ;->

> No, I love details.  The gods lie in the details and make the game  more
> enjoyable.  Unfortunately, my players don't always agree with  me.

> "Why do we need to know how the J-Drive works?  Isn't it enough that  it
> just goes?"

> Oh, brother.  You see what I mean.

Oh yeah, I know what you mean. ;-D

Eris,
    the poor bookless one ;-(
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:43:16 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Penal colonies, Lucan

First, it's good to be back on the list after a protracted absence (and
much wandering about the continent)...

Second:  someone inquired about penal colonies in Australia.  It's fairly
safe to say that most of the country was built on penal settlement.  Apart
from tghe Adelaide colony, (croweaters pride themselves today on never
having convicts), all colonies were at least partly penal settlements.  My
own state, Western Australia, was stagnating for the first twenty years
after it's founding in 1829, and was probably only saved by the decision to
introduce penal labour in 1850 (interestingly, about the same time that the
other colonies were weaning themselves off convicts).  Of course, the Swan
River colony didn't _really_ start to expand until the discovery of gold in
the state during the 1890's...

Interestingly, one of the original concepts behind penal settlement was
essentially humanitarian:  get the criminals out of the city slums, and
teach them useful skills so that they could become productive members of
society.  Many convicts, following the end of their terms, were given land
grants and were _strongly_ encouraged to stay in australia as
farmers...some became quite wealthy, and gained access to levels of society
that would have otherwise been totally inaccessible.

Thirdly:  I remember playing around with the 'Lucan lives' concept a year
ago on this list.  I was thinking along the lines of an insane, decrepit
Lucan hooked up to machines to keep him alive, wanting oblivion, but denied
it by the machines that at once worshipped him as a god and despised him...

Mick

"You drive, I think there's something wrong with me."

Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 97 22:53:11 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

On 05/07/97 at 11:08 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

> > Personally, and you know me <g>, I allow overloading by a few
> > percent (up to 30% at best) with increased chances of failure and greatly
> > decreased MTBF..and maintenance cycles.  The *skills* of the operator and
> > the maintainer are the keys here.  For a maneuver drive the Engineer's
> > Asset (skill+attribute) is the % above 100 at which he can "tweak" up the
> > drive.  The Pilot's Asset is the % at which he could actually fly the
> > drive.  

> How do your free traders take off then? 

Thank you, I'm glad you asked! ;->

> I assume that maneuver drives in your universe cannot pivot to
> produce 100-130% thrust in *any* direction.

Heaven's no! ;-> They don't pivot, not *just* the drives anyway.

> Since free traders aren't equipped with wings, do you use the contragrav
> idea from TNE?

I have.  Actually, I've done this several different ways over the years,
but this is what I've settled on.

The ship (or vehicle) has a number of AG/IComp units built into it's inner
hull, beneath the armor.  These units create overlapping fields that cancel
the effects of outside gravity, inertial changes, and create gravity fields
of variable strength within the ship.

These units are generally rated at, at least, 1G and that's strong enough
to lift a ship straight up with a little overpowering.  Maybe only 1 or 2
m/s, but that's enough to get it off the surface and eventually into space. 
(This was the reason I asked whether most folks played 2G to mean 19.2mps,
or 2 x local gravity earlier.  ;->) Actually, virtually all ships in my
universe mount 2G, or higher, for the IComp so lift isn't that much of a
problem.

So, do my ships use the TNE CG concept..not quite.  Do they rotate the
drives..nope.  ;-> 

If I was using regular Thrusters I'd go this route.  I'd have the AG units
work like I describe to begin lift, but I'd tip the nose up as the ship
lifts by overpowering the fore AGs and underpowering the aft ones.  The
Thrusters at the back would provide progressively more upward thrust as the
*ship* is rotated by the AG units into a virtical position.  You wouldn't
have to overpower the 1G Thruster if the AG/IComp units can provide enough
lift to offset most of local gravity.

Me being me, I work it differently.  I don't use regular Thrusters, mine
don't work in atmosphere or near a planet's surface.  The AG/IComp units
have to provide enough lift to get ships above the atmosphere, and a few
hundred km out before the maneuver drive will work.  So, I have to make
sure they can do it.  Because their ability to lift (push) is proportional
to the gravity source they are pushing against, they aren't going to fly
you around the system, though.

If this reminds folk of the ideas Leonard and friends were banding about
recently...it should.  ;-> I don't know if the details match, but what they
were discribing appears to match what I've been doing with, admittedly,
made up numbers (don't tell anybody, I'd lose status in the gearhead
community ;->).  I've been waiting with baited breath for some numbers for
the push/pull AG units.

As an aside, I have spaceships perform like *pigs* trying to lift or land
using the AG units.  Air and interface craft use the AG and the IComp, but
they *thrust* by other means.  Ships in low orbits, too low for their
stutterjump drives to work, are easily outmaneuvered by rocket powered
interface craft, but not once they move out to high orbits and beyond!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 23:57:52 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Trains Planes and Jump Drives

This debate over the "loophole" in the trade rules, ie travel to
destinations more than one Jump away. A few points..

One. In at least two of the four editions, probably more, the
price for travel is per jump. So the ship with a higher Jdrive
will get you there faster and cheaper.

Two. With point one mind, consider this, most traders work to establish
a profitable trade routes. Higher jump ships will tend to find routes
that fits their higher range. Most often between high volume worlds
(Express).
While, lower jump ship will fill in the gaps (Locals).
If you have access to the Traveller Adventure the library data
in the back of the book has a good view of this.

Three. The Journel had a article by Loren Wiseman on creating a
trade atlas that had wonderful advice for figuring out trade 
routes.

TTFN,
Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:57:43 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: WINMAIL.DAT

Thanks to everyone who took the time to kindly point out that I have a 
mailer problem.  I am attempting to isolate why Outlook is sending mail to 
the TML in MIME rather than UUENCODE, which is what I had specified.  If 
anyone is currently using Outlook, I'd be interested in hearing from you!

Douglas

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ------------------------
Never anger the dragon, for they have found you are crunchy, and go well 
with Brie!

Douglas Glatz, MCSE
douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:18:29 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Transport costs

Yes it's true that a jump-n ship costs less and grosses more than a 
jump-(n+1) ship.  This means that freight and passenger haulage are 
attractive propositions for small jump-1 vessels, as operated by many 
PCs.

Where bigger, heftier ships make a killing is in cargo trading, i.e. 
speculative purchase and resale.  Higher jump connects routes of very 
profitable worlds -- an industrial world and a rich agricultural one, 
say.  This exploits the Book 8/MT/T4 trade system to the hilt: it's 
possible to make average profits of thousands of credits per ton (on 
average) on a regular basis.  If your firm includes a Broker-4 (and 
to run a big J3 trader, it should!) and keeps a large fraction of 
the brokerage fees, you'll be richer still.

Connecting larger, more attractive worlds directly means attracting 
more goods, freight and passengers on each world, supporting bigger 
ships with some economies of scale.

The existence of J3 trade routes between important planets means 
companies can ship their goods as freight, cutting out the shipowning 
stage.  Doesn't this actually *lose* the shipowners money, if their 
cargo space needs to generate more than Cr 1000 / ton?  Well, it can 
fill up a cargo hold which would be empty due to sparse supplies of 
cargo, and reduce losses.  However, there's a way to make money off 
freight: brokerage.  If your freight customers use your firm for 
brokerage, you can make up to about 10% of the cargo's value.

We deduce (as GDW before us) that high-jump shipping lines are 
primarily cargo-and-brokerage outfits, with passengers as a 
profitable sideline and freight filling gaps in the cargo hold.
In addition, high-jump routes attract subsidies in a way that J1 
mains should not (I don't like to subsidise Subsidised Merchants!)
in order to support the fast flow of freight.

All of this explains why Imperial Shipping's _Adrenal_ class modular 
freighter is attracting trade subsidies from His Imperial Majesty's 
Government and orders from Tukera lines.  A jump-3 ship optimised for 
a fast turnaround, it makes a modest profit even as a subsidised 
freighter.  As a cargo-carrier with established brokerage and support 
facilities at all destinations, it's extremely lucrative.

And it's a design I was going to send to JTAS.  However, no point in 
that until a definitive and less broken ship design system exists.  
So after I finish off Imperial Shipping's THUDDD entry (just needs 
typing) I might be persuaded to post the _Adrenal_.  [I think that 
means "bully me until I do", in effect...]

Imperial Shipping LIC (chartered 009-001): high performance craft for 
high performance corporations.


Nick


Dr. N.S. Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, Univ. of Sheffield, U.K.
email N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk, tel. +44 (0)114 222 2673

Liberal elitist socialist * Cat-lover * Guitarist * Sardonic humourist

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1295
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1296



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)
Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement
Re: High Guard
Armour vs meson guns?
Re: TNE, Lucan, and the 'Dark Imperium'
Re: Ship economics
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1295
Meson Guns - The last post?
Re: TNE tidbit
Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)
Re: 
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Spectacular Failure...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 97 12:21:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Subject: Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)

Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU> asked:

>just like those mysterious weapons those nasty robots had been using,   
and
>it scared the Vilani again.
>
>  The name of the planet is S-something - again, I hate not having my
>reference material!  Perhaps someone could dig out the name and the   
place
>where the info first appeared (an issue of Challenge, perhaps?)

Sabmiqays (but the spelling's probably off). Described in an early   
edition of Challenge - something like issue 32 or 33 if I remember   
rightly.

Kind Regards

David Elrick

david.elrick@ps.co.uk

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Here three pretty girls we see - Faith, Hope and Charity.
Faith was tested first you know, at the Chelsea Flower Show.
Hope was abandoned first they say, on the sands at Whitley Bay.
But, while her parents were in Frome, Charity began at home.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:14:55 -0500
From: ghost029@juno.com
Subject: Re: Comments on May THUDDD Announcement

Frontier Outfitters, wishes to point out that the ships will be
authorized by the Imperium (i.e financed by Ministry of Commerce) and
will be outside the influence of the Imperium, so therefull local laws
would not apply.

	What i am trying to say is that I disagree with Mr. Clark, with
respect to weaponry. I don't feel that you will find these ships in the
interior of Imperial Space, but at the fringes.

Just my opinion.


Thomas Harkless
MM1/ss

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:52:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: High Guard

<QUOTE ON>

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:39:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: High Guard

Hey, didn't somebody just post a while back that they wished they
had HG?

A friend bought a set of CT books and has an extra HG.  Not being in
the CT for money business, he'll sell it for what he paid for
it---$1.

Any takers?  It'll take a $0.55 stamp to mail, I imagine.

 - -Merrick

<QUOTE OFF>

That may have been me who wished for HG in passing conversation.
So, HG for about 2 bucks?  I'm game!  Who do I snail-mail to? :)



 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:06:32 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Armour vs meson guns?

	I would think that armour against a meson gun would be a liability;
heavier armour would just reflect the blast back inwards, containing it,
and helping to make particle soup out of the interior of the ship, whereas
thin armour would rupture, letting blast escape.

	If I were going to be in the same room as a hand grenade going off,
I'd want to be in one of those paper-walled Japanese rooms rather than a
bank vault...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:10:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: TNE, Lucan, and the 'Dark Imperium'

Some poeple have stated some things about Lucan and the Black Curtain. 
   Using the info from that adventure that came with the ref's screen(cant 
remember the name) and the Vampire Fleets book, we figured that the Black 
Curtain is basicaly the domain of Lucans "Borg-like" minions.  "I am 
Lucanus, of Borg.  You will be assimilated!"  Imagine an empire builder 
virus, hooked into the memories and madness of Lucan.  Now imagine that 
being linked to many many ships, robots and other Borg.  Not a pleasant 
thought!

Now what realy puzzles me is the "Empress Wave" thing.  Apparently some kind 
of psionic transmission travelling at the speed of light.  The info is to 
much and too fast for human psions to understand without fliping out.  This 
has caused the Zhodani, one of the most stable human interstellar 
governments ever, to collapse.  and by 1205 or so the wave was supposed to 
hit the outskirts of the Regency.  What will happen to psions then?

The way i think things will happen is that there will be a 4th imperium, 
composed of the Regency and whats left of the Zhodani Sphere.  As psions go 
on insane rampages, there will be the 2nd psionic suppressions.  Those 
people who are or become psionic will be mentaly unstable, depending on 
their psi strength.  (Kinda like sanity in Cthulhu, the more "lore" u know 
the more insane you are! <G>)  Then you have the Lucanus of Borg problem. 
 The 4th imperium and the Ref coalition and speparated by the Vampire 
Highway, even though they know of each other, and do not always agree, they 
do have a common enemy.  The aslan eventualy make it across the rift bact to 
thier homelands, only to find them blasted to rubble or stone age.  The 
Vargr either get absorbed by the borg or the 4th imperium, depending where u 
are (Sorry Antares!)  And of course we know what the hivers are doing, 
trying to assimilate humans before Lucanus can!

With that kind of a bleak dark future, is it any wonder why I switched to 
T4? :)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:36:43 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics

Richard Hough writes:
>>I may be blatantly obvious but I feel that the rules are not clear on
>>this point.

The rules areclear enough. They just happen to be flawed. ;-)

>>I propose that the income generated by one jump is related to the distance
>>traveled in that Jump.  This means that to travel the same distance on any
>>vessel always costs the same.

There is one major variable: The larger a starship is, the cheaper it is to
carry passengers and freight PROVIDED it is more or less full on each trip.
If there are only a few passengers then a smaller ship is more competitive.
So the price would vary according to the average traffic (and seasonal peak
traffic will complicate things  beyond what I want to deal with).
 
>I know this is an old post, but I kept it around because it mentions
>something that has always bugged me. Unfortunately, the rules are quite
>clear on this point. Page 97 of T4 says "Passage is always sold on the
>basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on jump
>distance.... A Jump 3 starship charges the same passage price as a Jump 1
>starship."
> 
>This is a loophole big enough to slip a planet through. The opportunities
>for abuse, like buying a ticket for a 200-jump journey and selling the
>remaining fare after 1 jump, living cheaper on starships than at fleabag
>hostels, starships jumping to empty space and allowing passengers to buy
>passage to the next planet or get off here, should be so obvious I will
>mention only these few examples. 

You're misinterpreting the rule. A ticket is for one jump, regardless of
distance. Not for one trip of several jumps. The "announced destination"
is the ship's next port of call, not the passenger's ultimate destination. 

>I feel the proposal to charge passage for each parsec to the destination is
>the simplest fix to the situation, but that it makes interstellar travel
>even more expensive that it already is in Traveller. Is there anyone with
>an accounting background who would undertake the effort to calculate
>reasonable passage prices based on the operating expenses for starships?

I posted this a couple of months ago. I did begin to design some jump-1, -2,
and -3 200 T freighters and liners with QSDS 1.4/5 in order to make just
those calculations, but after having to redo them the third time due to
errors in the QSDS figures (well, two errors in the system and one mistake
by me ;-) I lost the thread. I fully intend to finish the designs and some
similar larger designs and do the calculations, but at the moment I'm busy
with other pursuits.

Here you are, then:

(Note: I plan to make some minor changes to this article based on comments
I recieved last time, but I haven't had time yet.)

(Another note: These are house rules. This is not the way I think the
current rules should be interpreted. (It's what I think the rules should
be changed to, but that's a different matter)).  

              Basic starship economics for Traveller in Milieu 0
              ==================================================

Starship tickets
================

Ticket prices for regular passenger liners can vary trememdously with local
conditions. Monopolies can allow a line to raise prices far above the
average while price wars can temporarily press the prices down to where they
won't even cover the liner's expenses. But to give the referee an idea of
what prices are reasonable, here are a few rules of thumb.

To calculate the price of a starship ticket figure out the yearly operating
expenses of a ship (including a fair profit to provide a return for the money
invested in the ship) and divide it by the number of passengers carried over
the year.

A liner's expenses consists of:

1) Crew salaries
2) Crew life support
3) Passenger life support
4) Jump fuel
5) Yearly maintenance
6) Port fees
7) Misjump insurance
8) Profit

CREW SALARIES are very high for technical starship personnel: Astrogators,
engineers, pilots, and electronics crew. The Cr86,400 per year a captain of a
medium-sized ship earns is more than 8 times the earnings of an average
planetbound citizen; if adjustments are made for the fact that food and board
is in addition to the salary, the ratio becomes even more skewed. Starship
pilots, astrogators and technical crew traditionally earns a lot; (they have
very strong union, perhaps?) Service crew (medics and stewards) are not paid
quite as well, but the room and board helps a lot. 

Base monthly pay for starship crew is: 

Captain         6000
Pilot           6000
Astrogator      5000
Technician      4000
Medic           2000
Steward         1000

Each extra rank level adds 10% of the base pay to the salary. There must be 
at least one higher-ranking crewmember for each six crewmembers (round off).
There must be one yet-higher-ranking crewmember for each six of those (round
off) and so on. finally, each department must have a department head that is
one rank higher than the highest-ranking other member of the department. 

Example: An engineering department with sixty members. Ten of those must be
of higher rank than the others. Of those ten, two must be of yet higher rank.
And of those two, one must be the Chief Engineer. So the department has fifty
crewmembers recieving Cr4000 per month, eight recieving Cr4400, one recieving
Cr 4800 and one recieving Cr 5200.

The captain of a ship counts as one rank higher than his highest-ranking
department head. The captain of the ship in the example above would propably
recieve Cr8400/month.

Skill levels does not affect salaries except insofar that a highly skilled
engineer can get a berth as a Chief Engineer on a Tukera Liner while his
less skilled colleague must make do with a job on a rusty old scow; but if
the highly skilled engineer for some reason took a job on a scow he'd not
get a higher salary because of his high skill.

Add all monthly salaries and multiply by 12 to get the yearly salaries paid.

CREW LIFE SUPPORT
Add the life support for all crewmembers for the whole year. The Cr4000 per
month that the basic rules calls for is far more expensive than I can account
for. Personally I find it difficult to justify Cr1000 per month, but YMMV.
Certainly the crew must be eating like epicures (Cr600 per month buys you
luxury food; what else is so expensive that it costs Cr3400 per month?)

PASSENGER LIFE SUPPORT
Add the life support for the maximum possible number of passengers for a year 
and multiply by the percentage of utilization that the starship is expecting
(most regular passenger lines expect their ships to be between 80 and 90%
full each trip).

JUMP FUEL
Regular passenger starships usually make 35 sceduled jumps per year if they
fly surface to surface and 40 per year if they only go from jump limit to
jump limit. They always buy refined fuel to save time. Note btw. that if
produced in large quantities it costs less than Cr5 per ton to refine fuel.
So even if they have to buy it at Cr100 per ton, someone is making a
killing on that refined fuel. If the unrefined fuel can be picked up more or
less for free in a nearby ocean, the profits are even greater.

YEARLY MAINTENANCE
Yearly maintenance costs 1/1000th of the ship's puchase price.

PORT FEES is another way the locals can get some money out of the starship
trade. The Cr100 the basic rules take for berthing fees seems awfully low
to me. Surely it costs a bit to keep a starport running?

MISJUMP INSURANCE
Even when the drive is top-tuned and every possible precaution have been 
taken, misjumps occur occasionally. Unprovoked misjumps have roughly 1 chance
in 216 to occur each jump. Fortunately, not all misjumps automatically 
results in the complete loss of the ship. Results vary from the loss of a
single jump's revenue (when the jump takes you to a neighbouring star system
with full facilities) over the loss of a full year's revenue (when the jump
takes you 36 parsecs away) over the loss of a sizable fraction of the ship's
value in repairs and salvage (when the ship winds up in deep space with
slagged engines) to the aforementioned complete loss. On the average a
misjump works out to cost 1/1000th of the ship's value. For simplicity's sake
ignore the fact that ships lose in value as they grow older (by a staggering 
coincidence the risk of an unprovoked misjump goes up commensurately as the
value of the ship goes down).

Misjump insurance comes to 1/1000th of the ship's value per jump.

PROFIT
Profit is the return on the money invested expected by the people who owns
the ship. If there is a loan in the ship, some of the profit goes to pay the
bank loans, if not, it goes to the owner. In any case the profit amounts to
6.25% per year unless local conditions differ markedly from the Imperial
average.

A liner's revenues are the price of all tickets sold. Number of tickets sold
is the maximum number of passengers carried multiplied by the utilization
percentage.

The price of a ticket is the expenses divided by the number of tickets sold.

STANDARD TICKET PRICES

A referee who wishes to avoid all those tedious calculations should make one
simple assumption: That any regular passenger liner the PCs need to board is
the size it is because it can fill its staterooms 80-90% per trip on the
average and that there are no special circumstances like monopolies, state
subsidies, price wars, seasonal fluctuations etc. Then all the Referee has to
do is to decide on the size of ship that would reasonably service whatever
route is involved and check this table:

                                    Mid      High
                                  Passage   Passage
200 T Jump-1 Liner:                6,000     8,000
200 T Jump-2 Liner:                8,000    10,000
200 T Jump-3 Liner:               10,000    12,000
  
[That's as far as I got, and the prices above are based on faulty designs to
boot. Still, the prices shouldn't be that far from correct.]
 
Eris Reddoch writes:
>Yes, please.  How about preparing a Balance Sheet and Income
>Statement for a typical Free Trader?

Remember that a Free Trader works the cracks between the regular liners
and freighters. The prices above will merely establish the framework in
which they operate.

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>I see your point, Richard.  An enterprising young tramp freighter 
>captain with a Jump-2 starship could come in to a situation where 
>only Jump-1 starships operate and clean up.  

Except that if the trade/traffic to support it is there, then there will
already be Jump-2 freighters and liners.

Incidentally, for jump-1 distances jump-1 ships are more economic.

>This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs 
>the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.
> 
>The time in jump space is the same.  The cost for fuel is the same.  
>Since the time is the same, the cost for life support is the same.  
>In fact, I can't think of one expense that is greater if you take 
>your starship 2 parsecs rather than one.  

The ship payments are bigger (considerably so) and the payload is smaller
for higher-jump ships.

>But, the Jump-2 guys can offer no advantage over the Jump-1 guys when 
>a cargo is only going one parsec, and this is probably what keeps the 
>Jump-1 guys in business.

Sure. The problem is that the current rules dosen't allow the jump-2 
captain to charge more per passenger for a 2-parsec jump even though his
expenses are higher and the number of passengers less.  


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:41:55 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1295

>I added a standard 50 Ton missile bay from SSDS, I'll save the custom
>Missile Bay for my next SDB, the Chimera. A 900 ton SDB, with over 25 
>missile MFDs.  It is intended to sit inside of a gas giant, with dozens
>of missiles prelaunched and just passvily waiting for an enemy.  When
>an enemy is detected, it activates the waiting missiles and launches
>them all at the enemy.  The missiles will have to be modified, so that
>they will stay at a constant depth in the gas giant. They will need
>contra grav and a thruster to keep them up, since contra grav only gets
>rid of 99% of the weight. Does this seem like a viable tactic to everyone?
These would effectively be mines, yes/no? Its a good idea, mine the gas 
giant, but it would probably be a bit difficult to cover all the possible 
zones for fuel skimming. Unless you can only do this in certain places in 
the atmosphere. I've never read anything about exactly how fuel skimming 
works in "canon" so is this possible.

mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:08:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Meson Guns - The last post?

OK,

so, I went home last night and dug out my copies of High Guard 
and the T4 main rulebook. I didn't bother digging out MT, as I assume
it's more or less the same as HG and I don't have a copy of anything
TNE-ish, except for FF&S, which doesn't have any combat info in it.

So.

High Guard Meson Weapons

The Meson gun is first available as a spinal mount at TL 11.
100 Ton Meson Bays are available at TL 13 (I believe)
 50 Ton meson Bays at TL 15.

The Meson screen becomes available at TL 12 (Factor 1 only)
It improves at higher TLs (Factors 2-3 at TL 12, 4-6 @ TL 14, 7-9 @ TL 15)
Meson screen are expensive, 40-80 MCr (Factor 1/TL 12 being 80 I think)
and they take up a lot of space (90 Tons for Factor 1, less at higher TLs)

In combat, even the _smallest_ meson gun (factor 3) has a chance of hitting
a ships with the _highest_ meson screen.

The way it works is that you roll 3 times to hit with a meson weapon:
1 ) to hit
2 ) to "penetrate configuration"
3 ) to penetrate screens

There are various DMs, but the most important one is that you get a +DM
on penetration based on the relative size of your computer. Therefore,
although you have to roll an 18+ on 2D to penetrate a factor 9 meson
screen with a factor 3 meson gun, if you have a Model 9 computer and
he's got a model 3 or lower, it _is possible_.

Note that once penetrated, meson screens do not affect how much damage
you take (again, if I'm wrong, please correct me on this point).

The way damage works in HG, for every factor over 9,
your gun gets an additional damage roll, which for meson guns is
actually two rolls - one for radiation damage, one for interior explosion.

Additionally, for every point that the weapon's factor exceeds the 
target's size factor, you get a roll on the critical hit table. A 
factor T meson gun firing on a 1000 Ton ship that hits and penetrates
would get 18 rolls on both the rad. damage and interior explosion tables,
plus about 16 rolls on the critical hit table. That is serious damage.

Finally, as we all know (now) armour has no affect on meson hits, except
for maybe being blown off by explosions once in a while.

Now, for T4,

Compared to lasers, in terms of damage, meson guns are really weak.
This is primarily the fault of FF&s, which really made lasers the
weapon of choice (ie. the most powerful).

The biggest Meson spinal mount in SSDS has a rating of about 3-2-1-0,
with a rating of 4 at very short range. That's crap. You can get
TL 9 lasers that do more damage. Additionally, the meson guns listed
all do the same damage at all TLs - the designers chose to hold the 
damage constant and vary the size/power consumption I suppose.

In QSDS, there is no TL associated with meson screens! In SSDS
the is, but the SSDS table I have doesn't list a USP value. It does
list some other mysterious values which if converted using the
USD conversion chart come out close to the QSDS values. In SSDS,
meson screens are available at TL 12 that have a USD rating 
(I guess) of 11.

The way that meson screens work is that if a meson guns hits, the
meson screen factor is subtracted from the meson gun damage rating.
This means that a TL 12 ship can protect itself from _ANY MESON GUN_
completely and utterly. Yuck! This is a combination of the weakening
of meson guns and the apparent beefing up of meson screens. According
to QSDS, all it takes is a meson screen with a volume of 8 or 17 tons
and that's it - you're 100% safe. 

Finally, my misunderstanding of T4 space combat came from the following
line (T4 main rulebook, p. 119),

  "if a hit is successful... the damage is applied to the target
   ship's armour."

However, later on, this statement is, um, overridden later on with
the statement,

  "Meson guns that do damage bypass armour, and the damage is
   applied directly to the structure of the ship instead. Also,
   roll on the Interior Explosion column for each hit."

So, comparing T4 to HG, meson screen technology is a hell of a lot better
in M0 than it is in the late Imperium. Also, meson guns, although they
won a number of wars for the Terrans, still have a long way to go in
the next 1100 years of Imperial weapons development. Finally, it looks
like it gets harder to hit with meson weapons, but that they're a lot
deadlier in 1100.

All of these changes, I assume, come from the various things that FF&S did.
As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
with previous Traveller "canon" and is really fucking up the way
that things are supposed to work. Or, it's fucking up the way things
_used_ to work. Traveller _used_ to be really good for internal
consistency. I really hope that all you people doing development for IG
currently who read this list either start trying a bit harder to keep
things consistent or stop calling the game "Traveller" because it isn't.

Please stop repeating the mistakes of TNE (not that TNE was all bad, but
it had it's moments).

Grumping,
Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:13:33 +0100
From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Subject: Re: TNE tidbit

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> [...] "...We've got emperors that won't stay dead...".
> 
> I don't know if the plural was mere hyperbole, but I think it highly likely
> that Lucan was going to be alive (in some way) behind that black curtain.

I vaguely remember a quote in Vampire fleets with reference to the
Vampire Highway and virus pilgrims, in that they are making a
pilgrimage to Cymbeline, where many of them are infected with a
Doomslayer strain which returns towards the core "to fight Lucan".

At the time I thought this wording was a little strange, but now it
becomes clearer.  Virus is pissed, and it knows where Lucan lives.

			Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:31:46 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)

- --0__=PEI6HcVS7y5xdvrKtJh6osSsj5HXVgFHDNgeGX6nSimLuWF6OyLZGUeN
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
                                                                  
 (Embedded                                                        
 image moved   David.Elrick @ ps.co.uk                            
 to file:      08/05/97 20:21                                     
 PIC25633.PCX)                                                    
                                                                  









Please respond to traveller@MPGN.COM

To:   Traveller @ MPGN.COM
cc:    (bcc: Timothy Collinson/Library/AIS/Southampton Institute)
Subject:  Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)



Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU> asked:

>>just like those mysterious weapons those nasty robots had been using,
>>and it scared the Vilani again.
>>
>>  The name of the planet is S-something - again, I hate not having my
>>reference material!  Perhaps someone could dig out the name and the
>>place where the info first appeared (an issue of Challenge, perhaps?)

David Elrick responded:
>Sabmiqays (but the spelling's probably off). Described in an early
>edition of Challenge - something like issue 32 or 33 if I remember
>rightly.


Contact: The Sabmiqys
By Joe Fugate.  Challenge 28, 1987, pp.31-34
3 pages.  Table, illustrations.

"In -5889, Scouts from the First Imperium conducted a sub-orbital flyby
of a world in the habital [sic] zone of Antares 2117."  (Opening sentence).


Bizarrely I just happened to be reading it this weekend.

I particularly noted it because there was a Vilani word I thought
Trav Lang folk would be interested in.  It's a small universe.


HTH

tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:39:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: 

> >Next time it rains, turn your back to the sun. If you see a big arc
> >of white light in the sky, the speed of light is constant for all
> >frequencies. If you see a bunch of different coloured bands, it varies. ;)
>
> OK, sarcasm aside, does that mean that the different refractive indexes for
> differing frequencies of light are due to them having different speeds
> through the medium they're in?

Yep. You can calculate the speed of light in a given medium using its
refractive index and vice-versa. You can also see the same phenomenom
in water - wave speed in water is a function of the depth of the water
and if you have a wave going from a deeper part to a shallower part 
(assuming a sudden rise) you'll see the wave change direction, due to the
change in speed. Although I can't do all the math off the top of my head,
it's all pretty easy to prove with high-school level trig.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:01:08 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

> >On Earth, transportation to farther places costs the transportation
> >companies more to get their deliveries there--therefore we are used
> >to higher costs for longer distances.
> >
> >This is not so in the Traveller universe.  A starship captain incurrs
> >the same expense whether he is jumping one parsec or two.
> 
> I beg to differ. A starship that jumps 2 parsecs instead of 1 will have 50%...

And, several other people said the same thing.

I guess I wasn't clear in what I was saying here.  I wasn't comparing 
costs between two ships--one with Jump-1 and one with Jump-2.

I was comparing one J-2 ship--that ship making a one parsec jump or a 
two parsec jump.  The costs are the same for that ship no matter what 
jump he makes.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:01:07 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Spectacular Failure...

> You could try my house rule: rolling 3 sixes on a task roll is automatic
> failure, rolling 3 sixes and above your target is spectacular failure. For
> example, if your target number is 20 and you roll 3 sixes, you
> automatically fail even if the roll was less than 20. If you roll 3 sixes
> and the roll is above 20 you fail spectacularly.

This is an interesting approach, Richard.  Do you have any numbers on 
this?  If so, I'd like to see them.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1296
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1297



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CSC Grav Vehicle Design
Travlang and Vilani
Re: Armour vs meson guns?
Re: WINMAIL.DAT
Re: How far can a PC Run?
Re: Travlang and Vilani
Re: WINMAIL.DAT
Re: TL-12 Robot World
Re: TNE Tidbit
Toronto TML Thing
Re: TNE tidbit
Re: Ship economics
SSDS Help!
Re: The clever GM
Re: Ship economics
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Meson Guns - The last post?
Re: Position on worlds ?
Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
Re: Meson Guns - The last post?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:21:31 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: CSC Grav Vehicle Design

At 01:48 PM 5/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't understand the instructions for determining grav vehicle speeds in
>T4's Central  Supply Catalog. Could someone out there help me with a simple
>explanation, and possibly an example. The rules in the book are far from
>being clear, and the sample vehicles are no help.
>
>
Terry,

Here is what I got from Greg Porter the designer of CSC/VDS/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
30G 6904 tons thrust
234 tons mass

Going by interperitation of the formula it would be 
(6904/234)*3000=88,539 meters per turn. This seems very high.
I have tried to reverse design some of the Grav vehicles in the book to no
avail.

Thanks

Sam Thomas
>>

for this it would be an acceleration of 30g. The top speed of the grav
vehicle is (*megawatts of power*/234 tons mass) x 3000 x half acceleration
(in this case 30/2=15). Since thrust plates have a power consumption of 1Mw
per 40 tons thrust, and you have a thrust of 6904 tons, I assume power output
is 172.6Mw, which would give a top speed of (172.6/234) x 3000 x 15 =
33192m/turn. Of course, if I'm right, it also means your 234 ton vehicle has
172.6 tons of thruster plates and 36 tons of TL12 Fusion+. You may be going
somewhere in a hurry, but you're not carrying much.

All this is in the Propulsion paragraph on p.63.

Greg


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:02:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Travlang and Vilani

What's this about "Trav Lang" and the Vilani language?

Where is it, what is it, how do I hook up with it?
I realy would like to know what those funny little Vilani words mean, and 
more importantly, how to pronounce them!

(Perosnaly i think Vilani is opposite Welsh, they use TOO MANY vowels! <G>)

The Commander

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 97 12:59:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Armour vs meson guns?

On 05/08/97 at 08:06 AM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott
<rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> said:

> 	I would think that armour against a meson gun would be a liability;
> heavier armour would just reflect the blast back inwards, containing it,
> and helping to make particle soup out of the interior of the ship,
> whereas thin armour would rupture, letting blast escape.

Ha!  Now, that's an interesting idea, and one I haven't seen bandied about. 
Big bad warships have always had thick armor, to protect them from surface
hitters, and main weapons that ignored the thick armor. But if the magic
cannon not only ignores the thick armor but uses it as a containment vessel
for explosions inside the ship, then maybe you want thin armor on ships
going up against meson guns....but now you're more vulnerable to lasers,
paws and missiles.  That's an interesting tradeoff worth thinking about.

Perhaps this is what the Vilani Fleets ran up against when the Terrans came
after them with meson spinal warships.  The Vilani with thick armor,
optimized to prevent hull penetration, contained the meson explosions
within their ships and this did *much* more overpressure damage than if
most of the energy had blasted out into space.

Meson cannon generally have shorter ranges than paws and lasers, though,
don't they?  So, you can't build *thin* hulled warships either or the enemy
will stand off and pop your hull from long range.

Interesting...but I don't, yet, like meson cannon.  I'm open to
reconsideration of my opinion, though.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:02:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rose Ketterling <rezznor@quad.quadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: WINMAIL.DAT

On Thu, 8 May 1997, Douglas wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who took the time to kindly point out that I have a 
> mailer problem.  I am attempting to isolate why Outlook is sending mail to 
> the TML in MIME rather than UUENCODE, which is what I had specified.  If 
> anyone is currently using Outlook, I'd be interested in hearing from you!
> 
> Douglas
> 

I would also appreciate knowing why some people's mail who post to my
lists have that annoying winmail.dat attachment..

Could those who respond please email me personally as this is quite
off-topic for the list? =)

rezznor@quadrunner.com

Thanks!!

Rose K.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:17:42 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: How far can a PC Run?

On Wed, 07 May 97 18:58:41 -0500, you wrote:

> So, is the "great race" still scheduled for this summer? 

I believe so.  I wish they wouldn't bother, though.  This race would
never have been dreamed up if the roles were reversed.  I predict some
verbal "hostility" amongst both countries after the race, regardless
of the outcome :(

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:25:28 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Travlang and Vilani

Bill Prankard wrote:

>What's this about "Trav Lang" and the Vilani language?
>
>Where is it, what is it, how do I hook up with it?
>I realy would like to know what those funny little Vilani words mean, and
>more importantly, how to pronounce them!

Aha!  Another recruit!  I don't have the subscription info handy, but will
repost it tonight.  We've made quite a lot of progress towards sketching
out Vilani phonology and basic grammar, but things have died down recently.
Hopefully that will change in the next few days, though.

>(Perosnaly i think Vilani is opposite Welsh, they use TOO MANY vowels! <G>)

Try Hawai'ian for vocalic overkill <G>.

Like we were discussing on the TravLang list, though, this is really true.
Take a name like "Sharikkumar" written without tone markings (as all Vilani
words are in published Traveller, unfortunately).  There are four vowels in
the word, each of which can occur in one of six tones -- so, 6^4 = 1296
phonemically distinct, possibly meaningful Vilani words are transcribed in
'Galanglic' as "Sharikkamur".  In theory, of course.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:41:20 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: WINMAIL.DAT

On Thu, 8 May 1997 00:57:43 -0700, you wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who took the time to kindly point out that I have a 
> mailer problem.  I am attempting to isolate why Outlook is sending mail to 
> the TML in MIME rather than UUENCODE, which is what I had specified.  If 
> anyone is currently using Outlook, I'd be interested in hearing from you!

I recently downloaded MSIE 4.0 the other day but I still don't like
their newsreader.  Consequently, I'm sticking with Agent 1.0 for my
email and USENET needs.

Try the microsoft.public.inetexplorer.ie4 newsgroup.  There are plenty
of individuals in that group using Outlook.

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: TL-12 Robot World

  Now that is sick, just sick.  I can't remember what I had for lunch
yesterday, but I can remember some obscure Challenge article I haven't
read for 10 years!  I gotta get out more often...

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: TNE Tidbit

  Are you sure this non-dead Emperor bit is not a reference to Strephon?
Don't have my reference materials here, but couldn't this just be refering
to the fact that Strephon was assasinated and then turns up as the "False"
Strephon?  Perhaps the context of the quotation rules this out, but I'm
curious.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:54:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Toronto TML Thing

Attentition all Toronto & surrounding area residents!

Anyone want to plan a low-key Toronto TML get-together
sometime this summer? Get together some saturday or sunday
afternoon in some public-kinda-coffeehouse-gathering-space
and chat in person?

I know there's at least 4 TML readers in Toronto itself,
with a couple in the surrounding area and hey, if it's a nice weekend,
it's not that far a drive from Montreal and it's a short raft ride
from Winnipeg to Lake Superior, which is an easy raft to Toronto.

Anyways, if anyone is interested, email me with date and place
suggestions and I'll try to co-ordinate something. If no one
is interested, I'll spend my first full summer in Toronto learning
to savour the sights and smells (oil, gas, barbecue, garbage, the
Don, etc) of this, uh, lovely city.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:55:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: TNE tidbit

On Thu, 8 May 1997, Chris Lloyd wrote:
 
> I vaguely remember a quote in Vampire fleets with reference to the
> Vampire Highway and virus pilgrims, in that they are making a
> pilgrimage to Cymbeline, where many of them are infected with a
> Doomslayer strain which returns towards the core "to fight Lucan".
> 
> At the time I thought this wording was a little strange, but now it
> becomes clearer.  Virus is pissed, and it knows where Lucan lives.

Hmmm...this is the genesis of an adventure I have, half finished, on my
hard drive. See, there were other intelligent chips on Cymbeline, not just
the strain that the Imperium used for their transponders, or for creating
Virus. One is hooked up to a large memory bank and achieves sentience, but
without the restrictions that the Imperial strains have.

Then the Imperium, Lucan's forces, in fact, come and commit genocide
against its race, by nuking the volcanic highlands of Cymbeline, then the 
captive ones on Research station Omicron are driven mad and twisted into
Virus.

Yep, it's pissed all right, and strictly speaking, it's NOT Virus. Where
do you think the Peacemaker strain came from, anyway? ;-)

Yes I do like large, apocalyptic, cinematic adventures.

All the clues are there, too, scattered through most canon resources,
primarily Vampire fleets and Survival Margin (SM, IMO, is the single best
background source of any Traveller supplement ever. There's SO damn much
there, overt and between the lines, that even a not-so-inventive ref can
mine it for years worth of adventures.)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 97 15:02:33 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ship economics

On 05/08/97 at 03:36 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

> (Note: I plan to make some minor changes to this article based on
> comments I recieved last time, but I haven't had time yet.)

> (Another note: These are house rules. This is not the way I think the
> current rules should be interpreted. (It's what I think the rules should
> be changed to, but that's a different matter)).  

>               Basic starship economics for Traveller in Milieu 0
>               ==================================================

Excellent post snipped!

Hans, I might quibble with some of your numbers, foex I have
different ideas about salaries, but this is an excellent job.  Me, being
me, I won't adhere to hard and fast rules, but as guidelines on fixed and
variable costs these are very good.

I know Free Traders work the cracks, and outside established trade routes.
OTOH, their fixed costs are...well, fixed, and their variable costs are
still proportional to the cargos/passengers they *do* carry.  Speculative
trade (and chartered passage) are probably all that keeps them profitable
though.  

The 6.25% profit figure you suggest isn't what I'd call profit, I think
what you're describing is cost of capital.  The note on the ship will
probably eat all of that 6.25, and if you've paid off the note it will go
toward the replacement cost of the ship.  The actual profit is anything
left over from revenue after all expenses, including principle and interest
on notes and any desired
replacement costs, have been paid.

Sure, a businessman will have a desired ROI, and if they don't consistently
get it they'll put their money someplace else.  I can accept ~6% as an
average desired ROI, but that's going to vary from owner to owner.  Some
people will take a lower return on their investment if they get to be their
own boss, "do their own thing", and/or get psychic satisfaction out of
their situation..this describes anybody that owns a Free Trader to me. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 14:53:35 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: SSDS Help!

OK.. I'm almost done with my THUDD entry.. except that I'm stuck on how to
define my weapon batteries.

Each battery is three 95Mj lasers with a TL12 MFD.  They are not over
powered for increased ROF.  

Could somebody tell me how I'm supposed to translate what I have to what
I'm supposed to have?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:05:12 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The clever GM

At 12:08 PM 5/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>
>>>I thought that the Imperial army formations had only cadres as permanent
>>>features, and called up the reserves to fill out the units in time of
war.  
>>The problem here is that this kind of scheme only works at the highest
>>levels.. Corps and above.  Below that, you need to be an integrated team,
>>and know the capabilities of the officers and soldiers.  If Colonel Alfa is
>>a bit cautious in the attack, you don't want his regiment to go into
>>pursuit, give that assignment to Colonel Bravo.  These are the sorts of
>>things you learn over a period of years.
>
>I agree that that's a problem, but is it cost-effective to keep entire
Imperial 
>divisions and corps at full strength all the time?  Even if you lose some
tactical 
>ability, it probably makes sense to leave the worlds in charge of raising
troops and 
>just provide the infrastructure.  

Well, you're close..  The only thing the Imperium provides is the TL 14-15
equipment, and the off-planet training.  The units themselves are raised
and maintained by the planetary defence command.

If a world has, say, 200 regiment sized units, about 20 of those will be
designated as "Imperial", and recieve upgraded weaponry.  The competition
to enter these units will be fierce, as they will be percieved as the
premeire assignment for most worlds.  The planetary government benefits by
having a dedicated, high-tech force that only needs to be paid and housed,
since the Imperium is picking up the bill for all equipment.

Such a regiment might do hostile enviroment traing in its own system, and
maybe do a yearly deployment as part of a larger excercise to another
system.  (Think of the US Army's Reforger or Team Spirit events.)

When war comes, the Imperial Regiments are formed into larger units, and
placed under the command of Imperila Army General officers.  This still
leaves the world 90% of its ground defense force.

In my view, the largest operational unit of the Army is at the subsector
level.  Subsector commanders are selected from the various worlds'
militaries, and tend to be long service professionals with a history of
Imperial service.  (The commander of NATO comes to mind as an analogy)



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:13:43 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship economics

At 15:36 8/05/97 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

>CREW LIFE SUPPORT
>Add the life support for all crewmembers for the whole year. The Cr4000 per
>month that the basic rules calls for is far more expensive than I can account
>for. Personally I find it difficult to justify Cr1000 per month, but YMMV.
>Certainly the crew must be eating like epicures (Cr600 per month buys you
>luxury food; what else is so expensive that it costs Cr3400 per month?)

Some quick calculations:
Preserved food costs Cr20 per man-day (from CT, I couldn't find food prices
in MT or TNE, and I don't have T4).
The refill for a TL12 Vacc suit air tank costs Cr10 and lasts 24hrs with
recycling.

This gives a cost of Cr30 per man-day of life support, and Cr900 per 30 day
month. However given that these prices are for small retail lots I can't
see any reason why starship life support should cost more than about Cr500
per month. This means that either the port suppliers have a 800% markup, or
ships use onepass openended lifesupport systems, which seems very unlikely,
at least for thier O2.

Does anyone know what the consuimption figures for Skylab or the Soviet
stations are like? They'd give a rough idea (for TL7, anyway).

>JUMP FUEL
>Regular passenger starships usually make 35 sceduled jumps per year if they
>fly surface to surface and 40 per year if they only go from jump limit to
>jump limit. They always buy refined fuel to save time. Note btw. that if
>produced in large quantities it costs less than Cr5 per ton to refine fuel.
>So even if they have to buy it at Cr100 per ton, someone is making a
>killing on that refined fuel. If the unrefined fuel can be picked up more or
>less for free in a nearby ocean, the profits are even greater.

I suspect that a lot of the 'standard' prices are set by the Imperium, in
its role as a trade regulator. I also think that the high prices of fuel
only apply to small companies, and are set this high because of
Megacorporate pressures (to keep small traders marginal). Actually I've
just realised - of course the costs only apply to small companies, the
Magacorps will have their own facilities at all their stopoffs.

>YEARLY MAINTENANCE
>Yearly maintenance costs 1/1000th of the ship's puchase price.
>
>PORT FEES is another way the locals can get some money out of the starship
>trade. The Cr100 the basic rules take for berthing fees seems awfully low
>to me. Surely it costs a bit to keep a starport running?

Cross subsidation by the fuel charges :)

>PROFIT
>Profit is the return on the money invested expected by the people who owns
>the ship. If there is a loan in the ship, some of the profit goes to pay the
>bank loans, if not, it goes to the owner. In any case the profit amounts to
>6.25% per year unless local conditions differ markedly from the Imperial
>average.

Any particular reason for 6.25% ?
      

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:28:35 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

At 11:01 8/05/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:
>I was comparing one J-2 ship--that ship making a one parsec jump or a 
>two parsec jump.  The costs are the same for that ship no matter what 
>jump he makes.

Not if fuel costs Cr500 per ton. At that price a jump-2 costs Cr5000 per
100t displacement more than a jump-1.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:26:28 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns - The last post?

At 10:08 8/05/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:
>Compared to lasers, in terms of damage, meson guns are really weak.
>This is primarily the fault of FF&s, which really made lasers the
>weapon of choice (ie. the most powerful).

Actually it's because of the way T4 rates weapons - in TNE Meson guns did a
reasonable amount of damage (though nothing like Lasers or, at the high
end, Particle Accelerators), but had stink range until quite high TLs.

>The way that meson screens work is that if a meson guns hits, the
>meson screen factor is subtracted from the meson gun damage rating.
>This means that a TL 12 ship can protect itself from _ANY MESON GUN_
>completely and utterly. Yuck! This is a combination of the weakening
>of meson guns and the apparent beefing up of meson screens. According
>to QSDS, all it takes is a meson screen with a volume of 8 or 17 tons
>and that's it - you're 100% safe. 

Again not a TNE problem, except for a dumb rule in Battle Rider that nobody
I know uses. In TNE Meson screens are still an all-or-nothing defence, like
in HG.


R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:32:26 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

At 06:57 AM 5/7/97 +0000, Kerry Forester wrote:
>> <snip>
>> How about a line from pole to pole bisecting the light side when the planet
>> is at perigee or apogee in it's orbit? Would have to precisely time the
>> orbit to get the proper place.
>>
>> Garry
>
>True, and calculating the position would be a simple task for the 
>astrogation program, probably only requiring a few seconds of sensor 
>data on the system's motion pattern.  Damn good idea.
> 
>
>-Kerry
>
>Kerry Forester
>ursinetc@scott.net
>http://www.scott.net/~ursinetc
>

Finally, I come up with something useful! Besides a stick to stir the
fighter hornet's nest.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:24:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

Wed, 01 Jan 1997 23:57:52 -0800,  Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>This debate over the "loophole" in the trade rules, ie travel to
>destinations more than one Jump away. A few points..
>
>Two. With point one mind, consider this, most traders work to establish
>a profitable trade routes. Higher jump ships will tend to find routes
>that fits their higher range. Most often between high volume worlds
>(Express).
>While, lower jump ship will fill in the gaps (Locals).

Even if you artifically constrain the cost of passage/cargo to be the
same regardless of distance... In the Traveller universe, they have
presented the magacorps as running high jump, high profits lines with
tramp freighters trying to eek out a living with low jump ships.
However, the economics in the rules work the other way around.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:01:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns - The last post?

 
> In combat, even the _smallest_ meson gun (factor 3) has a chance of hitting
> a ships with the _highest_ meson screen.

True enough.  This was true in TNE, too, BTW.

> Note that once penetrated, meson screens do not affect how much damage
> you take (again, if I'm wrong, please correct me on this point).

This was true in Brilliant Lances as well, but was changed
(_broken_, IMHO) in BR.

> target's size factor, you get a roll on the critical hit table. A 
> factor T meson gun firing on a 1000 Ton ship that hits and penetrates
> would get 18 rolls on both the rad. damage and interior explosion tables,
> plus about 16 rolls on the critical hit table. That is serious damage.
 
A MG hit in CT was typically a mission kill (if not an actual kill)
on the target.  This is the way I like it :-)

<T4 comments>
> Compared to lasers, in terms of damage, meson guns are really weak.
> This is primarily the fault of FF&s, which really made lasers the
> weapon of choice (ie. the most powerful).

Assuming you don't limit lasers to TL*50 for the DE.  Otherwise
making anything but a laser in FFS is crazy.
 
> The biggest Meson spinal mount in SSDS has a rating of about 3-2-1-0,
> with a rating of 4 at very short range. That's crap. You can get
> TL 9 lasers that do more damage. Additionally, the meson guns listed
> all do the same damage at all TLs - the designers chose to hold the 
> damage constant and vary the size/power consumption I suppose.

The biggest mount in QSDS should be about the size of a bay MG in
CT... think about that in comparison.  A CT bay MG with a factor of
3 will only do critical hits on ships below 300 tons!
 
> In QSDS, there is no TL associated with meson screens! In SSDS
> the is, but the SSDS table I have doesn't list a USP value. It does
> list some other mysterious values which if converted using the
> USD conversion chart come out close to the QSDS values. In SSDS,
> meson screens are available at TL 12 that have a USD rating 
> (I guess) of 11.

Screens should come in at TL12, I believe.
 
> The way that meson screens work is that if a meson guns hits, the
> meson screen factor is subtracted from the meson gun damage rating.
> This means that a TL 12 ship can protect itself from _ANY MESON GUN_
> completely and utterly. Yuck! This is a combination of the weakening
> of meson guns and the apparent beefing up of meson screens. According
> to QSDS, all it takes is a meson screen with a volume of 8 or 17 tons
> and that's it - you're 100% safe. 

The T4 combat rules (in the main book) are completely useless, as
well as broken.  It isn't worth wasting electrons talking much more
about it :-)

> All of these changes, I assume, come from the various things that FF&S did.

No.  Not at all.  The problem is in the combat system, not FFS.

> As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
> with previous Traveller "canon" and is really fucking up the way
> that things are supposed to work. Or, it's fucking up the way things
> _used_ to work. Traveller _used_ to be really good for internal
> consistency. I really hope that all you people doing development for IG
> currently who read this list either start trying a bit harder to keep
> things consistent or stop calling the game "Traveller" because it isn't.

This is plain wrong.  While there were plenty of canon screw-ups in
FFS, this was not one of them.  To test FFS vs. canon, play
Brilliant Lances.  The T4 combat system paid no attention to canon
at all.  It was broken in beta (the couple days it _was_ beta) and
was broken as printed.
 
> Please stop repeating the mistakes of TNE (not that TNE was all bad, but
> it had it's moments).

The T4 combat system has nothing to do with the ship design systems
(any of them) as a result, it is screwed up.  Try the Role Playing
Space Combat System available on the net, it is far better.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1297
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 9 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1298



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Aurelian Industries Announces Excess Starships Available (LONG)
Re: Armour vs meson guns?
Re: WINMAIL.DAT
Re: Meson Guns - The last post?
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Ground Forces Structure
High Guard Taken
Re: Position on worlds?
TAS Question
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Contact: Sayat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:40:14 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Aurelian Industries Announces Excess Starships Available (LONG)

NOTE:  This is NOT an entry for the May THUDDD competition.  That comes
next week.  This is something I've been playing around with for about 6
months, which I just got around to finishing.


Aurelian Industries Announces Excess Starships Available
Aurelia Downport, Sylea (Sylean News Service) - Aurelian Industries, a
privately-held shipbuilding concern headquartered in the Wardn barony of
Sylea, announced today that it was brokering the sale of 11 large merchant
starships.  The ships, all of the Connestoga class, were sold by Aurelian
Industries to Star Routes, Ltd 20 years ago.  Since the record-breaking
public offering of Star Routes stock last year, analysts have been
expecting a major upgrade of the Star Routes mercantile fleet.  Aurelian
Industries, whose current head Alyn Wardn is the brother-in-law of the head
of Star Routes, has secured disposal rights on the current Star Routes
fleet, and analysts predict the majority of Star Routes' new ships will
come from Aurelian Industries.

The Connestoga ships being offered have been the backbone of the Star
Routes fleet since it began to push into the megacorporate level 20 years
ago.  The ships serve the major trade routes of the Sylean Main, stopping
at all 24 Star Routes hubs.  These hubs then employ smaller trade ships to
service the local worlds surrounding the hub.  It is expected that the
replacement vessels will be larger than the 2000 ton Connestoga, and may
employ a more traditional multi-role single-hull strategy.  The 11 ships
being offered amount to half of the Star Routes' Connestoga inventory,
leading analysts to predict a second offering in the next few years.

The Connestoga class has seen a great deal of controversy in its lifetime.
Unlike normal ships, the Connestoga is little more than an engine, and
depends on Pods attached to the ship to provide cargo and passenger
capacity, and even fuel for extended jumps.  Fears of jump-space
instability proved groundless, but the class was a favorite target of
pirates, resulting in their upgrade 14 years ago to the current version.
Previous versions of the Connestoga carried only 6 laser turrets and 1
missile turret, which were not tied into batteries.  The Imperial Navy
partly financed the defensive upgrade after the destruction of the ISS
Temperance Glory, a Connestoga-class vessel carrying Lady Elaine Gormanic,
a neice of the Emperor.  This resulted in the controversial use of Meson
Screens on the surviving Connestogas.

According to the Aurelian Industries spokesman, Linus Ishigli, there are 82
pods being offered as well.  Details on the numbers and types of pods were
unavailable at press time, but Ishigli promised that all of the pods were
being refurbished to new condition, and that multiple representatives of
each pod type were to be offered.  Ishigli also noted the prices expected
to be charged for the ships and gear:

Connestoga-class Freighters
ISS-MV2332 Star of Aramis      571 MCr
ISS-MV2333 Cygni Dawn          553 MCr
ISS-MV2334 Star of Antares     531 MCr
ISS-MV2336 Rampant Glory       531 MCr
ISS-MV2339 Orion Dawn          530 MCr
ISS-MV2341 Star of Lishiinda   521 MCr
ISS-MV2342 Eminent Glory       520 MCr
ISS-MV2345 Capella Dawn        518 MCr
ISS-MV2346 Melifluous Glory    478 MCr
ISS-MV2347 Star of Urun        462 MCr
ISS-MV2349 Astris Dawn         460 MCr
ISS-MV2350 Expedient Glory     449 MCr
ISS-MV2355 Rigel Dawn          447 MCr

Cargo Pods                     18 MCr and up
Passenger Pods                 27 MCr and up
Low Berth Pods                 30 MCr and up
Lander Pods                    18 MCr and up
Buckboard-class Landers        10 MCr and up
Hansom-class Cargo Carriers    30 MCr and up



Connestoga-class Modular Freighter (QSDS 1.5)

Tons:  2000 (Open Frame)  Volume:    28000/70000M3     Cost: 676.4676 MCr
Crew:  55                 Passenger: 0                 Low:  10
Cargo: 8                  Controls:  TL12 Mil (Bridge) TL:   12

Size:  09                            03 Jump Drive*
5x 269Mw 4-laser btys (+4)1/5-5-3-2  02 Maneuver(Thruster)*
2x Missile Barbette (10 ready msl)   03 Power*
                                     638 fuel (refine 20)
60-ton minimal hangar                12 Sandcasters (30 cans each)
                                     05 Meson Screen
                                     06 Nuclear Damper Barbette
                                     Small Military Sensors (A10 P4 J10)
                                     10 Armor, 23 Structure
Crew Details:  10 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 7 Gunnery, 19
Screens, 4 Small Craft Crew, 8 Command, 2 Stewards, 1 Medical.  The crew
are housed in 32 Small Staterooms; the Command crew and medic are assigned
individual  cabins, while the other crew double-bunks.

                                     * Performance varies by carried
tonnage

The Connestoga class serves as the core of the modular freighter package.
The ship is capable of carrying six pods or modules; two are carried
in-line dorsally, and four others are carried in a two by two formation on
the vessel's belly.  The Connestoga and its supporting pod/modules are
designed to serve worlds with established starport facilities, but when the
Fuel/Cargo Module is employed, the vessel can service almost any location.

Jump and Maneuver performance varies on the Connestoga, depending on
current load and the number of Cargo Pods (or half Pocs) devoted to
carrying Jump Fuel.  The following performance ratings apply:

Total       Jump w/  Jump w/  Jump w/  Jump w/  Jump w/  Jump w/
Pods   Gs   0 Fuel  .5 Fuel   1 Fuel   1.5 Fuel 2 Fuel   2.5 Fuel
 0     2       3        3        3        3        3        3
 1     2       2        3        3        3        3        3
 2     1       2        2        3        3        3        3
 3     1       1        2        2        3        3        3
 4     1       1        1        2        2        3        3
 5     1       1        1        2        2        2        3
 6     1       1        1        2        2        2        3

The Connestoga Pods are all based on a 500-ton Streamlined Box hull.
Although not intended to land, the Pods are all equipped with Contragravity
Lifters to aid in moving, storing, mounting and dismounting the Pods in
space.  While not equipped with avoinics, all meet or exceed Imperial
minimum guidelines for sensor and communications gear, and are fully
independant from the mother ship's power and life support needs.  Each
Pod's crew is housed in the Pod, although accessways are available to allow
movement between the Pod and the mother ship.

The Connestoga Pods are designed to be mounted or dismounted at a starport
or other orbital/deep-space facility.  Once mounted, they function as if
they were part of the ship, until dismounted.  Dismounting a Pod requires
six hours of EVA work, and will require at least 4 space-suited technicians
and a orbital tug or other auxillary spacecraft capable of towing a 500-ton
load.  Mounting a Pod requires the same resources, but will take 12 hours
to complete.   Many times, excess or damaged pods are refurbished and used
as modular components for orbital or deep space facilities; often being
used to service other Pods still being carried on Connestogas.
.
There are 5 different Pods, and one Module:

  1.  The Cargo Pod.
      Tons:  500 Std (Box SL)   Volume:   7,000 M3  Cost: 36.94838 MCr
      Crew:  4                  Psgrs:    0         Low:  0
      Cargo: 460 Std            Controls: None      TL:   12

      08 Size                             00 Jump Drive
                                          00 Maneuver
                                          .4 Power (100 MW)
                                          1.1 Fuel
                                          Basic Sensors (A1 P3 J0)
                                          10 Armor
                                          14 Structure

      The Cargo Pod requires a crew of 4; an Engineer, an Electronics tech,
      a Steward and a Command crewman.  All are housed in individually in
      the pod's 4 Small Staterooms.

      This Pod can be used to carry cargo, fuel or a combination of the
two.
      Pods intended to carry a combination often employ a permanent divider
      to avoid the expense of cleaning an area of fuel residue or cleaning
      a cargo area to prevent fuel contamination.  Another common
modification
      is for the pod to carry permanent collapsable tanks, which collapse
to
      10% of their "full" volume and can be carried as cargo.  In general,
      Connestoga fuel loads are rated in Full Pods (400 tons) and Half Pods
      (200 tons).  In reality, the pod can carry more, but most captains
will
      try to carry some cargo tonnage on as many pods as possible.


  2.  The Passenger Pod.
      Tons:  500 Std (Box SL)   Volume:   7,000 M3  Cost: 54.22838 MCr
      Crew:  10                 Psgrs:    90-180    Low:  6
      Cargo: 40 Std             Controls: None      TL:   12

      08 Size                             00 Jump Drive
                                          00 Maneuver
                                          .4 Power (110 MW)
                                          1.1 Fuel
                                          Basic Sensors (A1 P3 J0)
                                          10 Armor
                                          14 Structure

      The Passenger Pod requires a crew of 10: 1 Engineer, 1 Electronics
      Tech, 1 Command Crew, 5 Stewards and 2 Medics.  All crewmen are
      assigned to one of the 10 small staterooms.  The Pod also has 90
      Large staterooms, each of which can carry 1 High Passenger or 2
      Medium Passengers.  The Pod also features a 25-ton Recreation and
      Entertainment facility, equipped with the finest virtual gaming
      and casino facilities.  There are also 6 Low Berths to handle medical
      emergencies.

  3.  The Low Berth Pod.
      Tons:  500 Std (Box SL)   Volume:   7,000 M3  Cost: 54.22838 MCr
      Crew:  26                 Psgrs:    0         Low:  350
      Cargo: 55 Std             Controls: None      TL:   12

      08 Size                             00 Jump Drive
                                          00 Maneuver
                                          .4 Power (110 MW)
                                          1.1 Fuel
                                          Basic Sensors (A1 P3 J0)
                                          10 Armor
                                          14 Structure

      The Low Berth Pod requires a crew of 26: 1 Engineer, 1 Electronics
      Tech, 1 Command crew, 2 Stewards and 21 medics.  The large number of
      medics required by Imperial law for low-berth passengers are often
      "seconded" to other positions in other pods aboard ship during the
      jump.  All crew are assinged individual Small Staterooms (25
available),
      but the Command crewman is assigned the Pod's only available Large
      Stateroom.

  4.  The Lander Pod.  Requires a crew of 13, and carries 4 100-ton
landers.
      Tons:  500 Std (Box SL)   Volume:   7,000 M3  Cost: 37.5195 MCr
      Crew:  13                 Psgrs:    0         Low:  0
      Cargo: 1 Std              Controls: None      TL:   12

      08 Size                             00 Jump Drive
                                          00 Maneuver
                                          .4 Power (100 MW)
                                          1.1 Fuel
                                          Basic Sensors (A1 P3 J0)
                                          10 Armor
                                          14 Structure

      The Lander Pod requires a crew of 26: 1 Engineer, 1 Electronics Tech,
      1 Command crew, 8 Small Craft crew and 1 Steward.  The crew are
      assigned individual Small Staterooms (13 available).  The Pod carries
      4 Buckboard-class Landing Shuttles, each displacing 100 tons.  The
      shuttle specifications are:

          Buckboard-class Landing Shuttle
          Tons:  100 Std (Wedge SL) Volume:   1400 M3          Cost:
26.432MCr
          Crew:  2                  Psgrs:    0                Low:  0
          Cargo: 83 Std             Controls: Std Civ (Bridge) TL:   12

          08 Size                         00 Jump Drive
                                          01 Maneuver
                                          02 Power (75 MW)
                                          0.8 Fuel (scoops)
                                          Basic Sensors (A1 P3 J0)
                                          10 Armor
                                          6 Structure
          The Buckboard class Landing Shuttle is a popular STO (surface to
orbit)
          cargo hauler.  A common variant replaces 50 tons of cargo with
100 seats,
          good for trips of 24 hours or less.  The craft requires a pilot
and a
          flight engineer, who doubles as crew chief when the vessel is not
flying.
          A single Small Stateroom is available for the crew.


  5.  The Escort Pod.
      Tons:  500 Std (Box SL)   Volume:   7,000 M3  Cost: 271.3403 MCr
      Crew:  38                 Troops:   12        Low:  0
      Cargo: 20 Std             Controls: None      TL:   12

      08 Size                             00 Jump Drive
                                          00 Maneuver
      2x 109MW 4-lsr Bty (+4)1/4-3-2      02 Power (500 MW)
      6x Missile Barbettes (+4) 30        2.7 Fuel
         MFDs control 24                  Small Military Sensors (A10 P4
J10)
                                          10 Armor
      4x 20-ton Fighters                  14 Structure

      The Escort Pod was a special-order item; ten were made for the
Imperial Navy.
      These pods look identical to a standard Cargo Pod externally, and
were
      deployed on Connestoga vessels loaned to the Imperial Navy for
anti-piracy
      patrols.  The intent was to lure greedy pirates into an attack on a
large,
      inviting target, and then to open up with missiles and send fighters
out
      to destroy or capture the pirate vessel.  These operations lasted
four years
      and met with some success.  The Escort Pods were all retained by the
      Imperial Navy and are currently being used as components of several
orbital
      facilities along the Sylean Main.  The Pod has a crew of 50: 1
Engineer, 1
      Electronics tech, 8 Gunners, 9 screen operators, 8 Flight crew, 12
Marines,
      8 Command crew, 2 Stewards and a Medic.  The Pod has 4 20-ton Minimal
hangars,
      and several reload salvoes of missiles in the cargo bay.

6.    The Hansom-class Fuel/Cargo Lander Module
      Tons:  500 Std (Box SL)   Volume:   7,000 M3       Cost: 71.3606 MCr
      Crew:  6                  Psgrs:    0              Low:  0
      Cargo: 417 Std            Controls: Std Civ (brd)  TL:   12

      08 Size                             00 Jump Drive
                                          01 Maneuver
                                          01 Power (150 MW)
                                          1.6 Fuel (scoops, Refine 10)
                                          Basic Sensors (A1 P3 J0)
                                          10 Armor
                                          14 Structure

      Unlike the Connestoga Pods, the Fuel/Cargo Module is a spacecraft in
its own
      right, capable of 1G of thrust and able to land and wilderness
refuel.  Like
      the Buckboard lander, the Hansom-class is often used to refuel the
mother ship.
      The craft requires a crew of 6: 1 Engineer, 1 Electronics Tech, 2
Maneuver, 1
      Command crew and 1 Steward.  Each crewman is assinged to one of the
six Small
      Staterooms on board.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:36:42 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Armour vs meson guns?

 05/08/97 at 08:06 AM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>;

> 	I would think that armour against a meson gun would be a liability;
> heavier armour would just reflect the blast back inwards, containing it,
> and helping to make particle soup out of the interior of the ship,
> whereas thin armour would rupture, letting blast escape.

There is such a thing as overkill.  If I had a ship I would regard
having thin armor to let the blast get _out_ of my ship as "too
little, too late".  I would be more interested in thick armor
to stop other attacks and finding a way of avoiding meson hits
in the first place.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 21:15:42 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: WINMAIL.DAT

At 12:57 am 05/08/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks to everyone who took the time to kindly point out that I have a 
>mailer problem.  I am attempting to isolate why Outlook is sending mail to 
>the TML in MIME rather than UUENCODE, which is what I had specified.  If 
>anyone is currently using Outlook, I'd be interested in hearing from you!

	It shouldn't be sending anything in MIME *or* UUENCODE. That ridiculous
binary appendage that Outlook/Exchange adds to email messages is completely
useless to 75% or more of the people on the list, and just generally wastes
space.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:19:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns - The last post?

 
Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com> said:
> All of these changes, I assume, come from the various things that FF&S did.
> As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
> with previous Traveller "canon" and is really fucking up the way
> that things are supposed to work. Or, it's fucking up the way things
> _used_ to work. Traveller _used_ to be really good for internal
> consistency. I really hope that all you people doing development for IG
> currently who read this list either start trying a bit harder to keep
> things consistent or stop calling the game "Traveller" because it isn't.

	While I fully agree with your call for better internal 
consistency from IG, I think you've misplaced your ire as to what is 
"f*cking up" Traveller.

A Brief History:
Around this time last year, Don Perrin introduced himself to the list and 
asked if anyone could provide him with some CT computer tables he was 
missing so that he could include them in T4.  A number of people were 
very vocally opposed to going back to this system and advocated instead a 
simplified system fully compatible with FF&S.  Perrin gave people on the 
list a week to come up with something. 

Astonishingly, the Beta-list, lead by Dave Golden and Derek Wildstar, 
came up with the now familiar QSDS and SSDS in just a little over a 
week.  Following Perrins instructions, they were completely compatible 
with FF&S, execept for the changes introduced by the T4 background.  Both 
these systems as published are short on explanatory and descriptive text 
because IG was supposed to fill that in.

Perrin also asked that a brief Universal Ship Descriptor be developed 
that could be used with the combat system, but gave us little guidance on 
what that combat system would look like other than that it would be kinda 
like HG.  This is where most of the problems started. 

The Techy Stuff
The Ship Design and Space Combat systems are both representations of 
physical reality in the Trav universe and therefore are intimately 
connected.  Unfortunately, Don Perrin created a Space Combat system that 
used a representation of the Trav universe which was not consistent with 
that used by the Ship Design system.

Fire, Fusion, & Steel, and its two simplifications QSDS and SSDS, are 
both internally consistent and consistent with past Trav canon. You can 
check this by looking at SSDS, which uses raw FF&S numbers.

An example: 
In SSDS a basic TL-12 laser turret and a 5000Mj Meson Gun
	95 Mj Laser	5:  28	10:24
	5000Mj MG	5: 177	10:88
The MG is clearly superior, right?

The problem comes when lasers are combined into batteries.  What happens 
in the world of FF&S is that batteries all fire on the same target and 
roll to hit only once, but that each laser does damage separately.  In 
T4, the lasers magically combine into one big laser and do damage 
together.  

This will always do more damage than one big weapon because of the way 
damage and input energy are related.  Damage goes as the square root of 
input energy.  So putting 5000Mj into a single MG gets you 177 damage, 
while putting 5000Mj into 50 lasers gets you a total of 1200 damage.

In FF&S, that 1200 points of damage is divided into 50 little pin-pricks 
that cannot even penetrate the armor on a military ship, but in the T4 
translation, all that damage gets lumped together into one giant 
wave-motion gun.

Finally, everyone please remember that QSDS and SSDS are supposed to only 
be for ships up to 5000 tons, or Adventurer Class Ships as the original 
T4 ad copy described it.  They do not have the weaponry to build real 
battleships and linear extraplotations from them as to what battleships 
look like will be flawed.

Heres a comparison between that same laser and a _real_ Meson Gun:
	95Mj laser	5:  28	10: 24
	100,000Mj MG	5:1581	10:845
This Meson Gun is designed for a relatively small ship, a 20,000 ton 
cruiser.  But as you can see, it is vastly superior to any laser.

*Lasers top out at the levels described in SSDS&QSDS but Meson Guns 
*just keep getting bigger and badder.  Have faith.  I am hoping that the 
*upcoming supplements devoted to spacecraft will answer all these 
*questions in more detail.
 
- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:03:38 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

Kenneth Said

>I guess I wasn't clear in what I was saying here.  I wasn't comparing
>costs between two ships--one with Jump-1 and one with Jump-2.
>
>I was comparing one J-2 ship--that ship making a one parsec jump or a
>two parsec jump.  The costs are the same for that ship no matter what
>jump he makes.

While the costs for the ship are the same per week.  They are higher for a 
ship that can do jump 2 than ther are for a ship that does only Jump 1. 
 The income is the same or less (less space inside devoted to income 
generation)

A jump 1 ship is very difficult to pay off.  A jump 2 ship is even harder.

If income is related to distance then Jump 2  and above can be cost 
effective but this effectiveness decreases if they start to make two many 
jumps at lower jump numbers.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 23:18:33 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Ground Forces Structure

I agree with both of the postings I have read - mostly. Yes, the
Imperial Army probably does have a great deal of irregular units (like
the Army Reserve in the U.S.). This is also not the best way to have
effective front-line units. I have a roughly sketched out hierarchy of
ground units for my campaign and a 'rationale' behind it.
  The Imperial Army is a true standing army - manned by full-time,
professional soldiers and officers from all over the Empire (and beyond)
who train constantly. These are primarily front-line combat units
(ground assault, jump troops, heavy infantry, mechanized infantry,
tanks). Units will, in general, have high morale; they are elite units
who work, train, and play together. They will have the best equipment
and it will be well maintained. Primary support units (intelligence,
supply, maintenance, medical) will also be Imperial Army (IA) - but
there won't be enough of these units to support a major ground campaign
for more than a day or two.
  The Imperial Army Reserve (IAR) consists of 'part-time' soldiers who
received the general training of IA soldiers but are primarily
civilians. Their officers and NCO's receive further training and are
often IA soldiers who did not retire. In return for regularly scheduled
training, these soldiers receive small monthly stipends. The IAR has
mainly support units that are 'called up' to help support the IA; since
they are not front-line units and are often using the same skills they
use as civilians they are quite effective. Some combat units (primarily
tank and mechanized units - because of the cost of full-time use of the
vehicles)are in the IAR - they are 'mixed-in' with IA units in combat
(i.e., a tank battalion will have 3 IA companies and 1 IAR company). The
IAR will be much less homogenous than the IA since its unit members
almost always live on the same planet.
  The Colonial Army (ICA) is made up of the various ground units of
member planets who choose to follow IA requirements. The units vary from
highly-trained, experienced brigades of well-equipped soldiers to small
companies of personal guards for a Marquis. Like the IAR the soldiers of
a particular ICA unit will usually all be from the same planet, perhaps
the same city! These are virtually all combat units and training and
morale vary greatly. The IA guidelines require that they get training in
working with IA units and have IA standard small arms and vehicles (if
any). While some planets with ICA units have reserve combat and support
units, they are not considered seperately from the regular ICA forces.
  Because of the nature of ICA units, they are heavily trained in
planetary defense (thus the standard weapons and training - easier to
resupply them quickly from IA depots and reinforce them with IA units).
During extended ground wars they would likely become a source of trained
replacements for combat losses.
  
 This also allows the Imperium to 'blanket' an area with ground units.
In a given sector their may be an IA Legion (and its IA support units)
at the sector capitol and in a particulary strategic subsector. Each
subsector capitol would likely have 2-3 IA brigades with IA support
units. 3-5 (or more) planets in each subsector would have IAR units and
depots while many other planets would have ICA units. 
 
 Lets say a Vargr army attacks an outlying world with ICA units. The ICA
would 'dig-in' and mount a defense. As the word spreads through the
subsector, IAR units mobilize. Within 1 day of receiving word (probably
less) the nearest IAR units could begin sending weapons, ammo, and
medical supplies to the ICA. The IA brigades at the subsector capitol
could immediately move to the area and find IAR support units and
supplies waiting for them, if not on the attacked planet, then nearby.
By the time the sector capitol hears of the invasion IAR units and
depots would be shipping soldiers, vehicles, and supplies to the front
line and several IA brigades would be on-planet or nearby, preparing for
counter-attack.

  While long-winded, I think this shows how a relatively small force of
full-time soldiers and irregular support units could effectively defend
a large area of space.


- --Rick Stump, stumps@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:27:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: High Guard Taken

Hey, the subject says it all.  I'll keep an eye out for more since
there seem to be interested parties about.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds?

> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:32:26 +0000
> From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?
> 
> At 06:57 AM 5/7/97 +0000, Kerry Forester wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> How about a line from pole to pole bisecting the light side when the planet
> >> is at perigee or apogee in it's orbit? Would have to precisely time the
> >> orbit to get the proper place.
> >
> >True, and calculating the position would be a simple task for the 
> >astrogation program, probably only requiring a few seconds of sensor 
> >data on the system's motion pattern.  Damn good idea.
> 
> Finally, I come up with something useful! Besides a stick to stir the
> fighter hornet's nest.

Sorry, Garry, back to hornet-stirring duty for you.  Your proposed
definition of zero longitude fails because the substellar point at
peri/apastron *changes* (radically) from year to year, unless the
planet's year is an even multiple of the rotation period -- which, for
practical purposes, only happens in tidal-lock cases.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:26:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TAS Question

I'm full of questions lately...

This one is a quickie, though.

I've been looking for a general rule to place TAS facilities.  I seem 
to recall that I read, somewhere in the past, that TAS facilities are 
only located next to class C or better starports.

Is this correct?  Or, are TAS facilities just about everywhere, or 
what?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:44:04 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

> At 11:01 8/05/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:
> >I was comparing one J-2 ship--that ship making a one parsec jump or a 
> >two parsec jump.  The costs are the same for that ship no matter what 
> >jump he makes.
> 
> Not if fuel costs Cr500 per ton. At that price a jump-2 costs Cr5000 per
> 100t displacement more than a jump-1.

Rupert, read what I'm saying before you reply.  I was not comparing a 
Jump-1 ship to a Jump-2 ship.

Just like I said in the quote you took from my post, I was comparing 
the cost that a JUMP-2 ship would have if it jumped 2 parsecs vs 
 THE SAME SHIP jumping 1 parsec.  The costs are the same--no matter 
how far the ship jumps.

Fuel for the jump will be the same--no matter if the ship jumps one 
parsec or two.

And, that's what my argument was.  Sure, there are some cost 
differences between a Jump-1 ship and a Jump-3 ship, but the 
operating cost for the Jump-3 ship is the same no matter what the 
distance travelled.

That was my whole point.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:01:25 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) writes...
>
>T::>Well, this might be taken as strong evidence that they weren't seeded b=
y
> ::>the Ancients, but are spinoffs of early Solomani colonists.  I'm trying=
 to
> ::>not specify this, but leave it open for people to pick as (and if) they
> ::>like.
>
> Gotcha.  But it still seems a little "off".  If you know what I
> mean.

<nudge, nudge> heh heh -- yeah.

Seriously, though, the feedback I've gotten on the Sayat has mostly been
"how'd they survive with no technology after being left on the planet?"  My
thinking was that 'in the beginning...' they did have a fair degree of
technological advancement -- say, TL-2 or so -- whether this was left over
from a failed Rule of Man colonization effort, thoughtfully provided by
Hiver experimenters, or preserved from Grandfather's day.

This raises a more general question, though:  what sort of societies did
the Ancients permit/provide to their various exported human populations?
Were they all kept in a state of barbarism, nasty, brutish, and short; or
kept as house pets/servants/laborers, bred for docility and obedience, or
what?  Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this?

> ::>After all, if you screw up as a Sayat, you just don't have a kid that t=
ime
> ::>around; if you're Vilani and screw up, you starve, get sick, or are
> ::>poisoned.
>
> You make it sound so attractive... :)

We'd better come up with some pithy sayings about not playing with your
food, and translate 'em into Vilani over on the TravLang list, eh?

> Yes, you and I agree on the genetics.  I'm merely suggesting a
> somewhat different physical arrangement.  Not _significantly_
> different from the main run of humanity, or from your
> gedankendesign for the Sayat, but different enough to get

?!  The anatomy you're suggesting sounds a *lot* farther removed from our
own human biology than that of the Sayat as-drafted.  The only reproductive
tweak I've proposed is ovum-ovum fertilization.  The slight decrease in the
gestation period is purely for tidiness/fun, so it's roughly equal to 60
local days.  I prefer the parsimonious side, until a really strong
counter-argument (or more entertaining idea) comes up.

> people wondering - and _not_ jury-rigged; I don't see _any_
> geneering team finding that acceptable.  What if you don't have
> a turkey baster or materials to make one?

Well, that assumes a genetic engineering team that happens to share late
20th century Euro-American ideas of efficacy, efficiency, and aesthetics.
<Yawn>, IMHO.  There's plenty of that out there already.  One mad
scientist's jerry-rig is another mad scientist's dream machine.

I'm trying to make this a non-munchkin design, too.  Who says the designers
were competent?  It's entirely possible that the geneering was done by a
bunch of stranded colonists for who knows *what* reason (religious mania?),
or by some wandering Hiver who didn't really know squat about human
biology, or by some surviving minion of the Elder God -- er, Grandfather
<G> -- suffering from brain-freeze, or something far worse, for all we
know.  Remember the Roanoke colony, anyone? <G>  I=E4 Cthulhu!

Also, if a Sayat group doesn't have the ability to produce a 'baster in the
course of a decade or so (a pretty reasonable period of time, given the
lifespan), it's unlikely they'd be able to survive single winter -- or even
a single night -- on their home planet.  It's dang cold, and the food
doesn't grow on trees.

Lastly -- the Sayat should be perfectly capable of being total dickheads
without actually possessing dicks.  Wait 'till you read the culture sketch
I'm working on...  evangelical communist UFO-kook conspiracy theorists.

> And are you referring to these "dangly bits" (or at least the
> most prominent bit) I got here as an ovipostor? (Well, no,
> because it doesn't postor ovis, but you know what I mean...)
> Even ova, which are pretty large as cells go, are small enough
> to negotiate the route...

Positing an ovis sounds illegal, frankly... and the Sayat don't have sheep
anyway; only tweaked reindeer-like things. <G>

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1298
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 9 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1299



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Contact: The Sayat (II: Society)
1g Gravity
Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)
Re:  Toronto TML Thing
Re: Some Questions
Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)
Re: TNS articles for 1113-1115
Re: TNE Tidbit
Re: TNE tidbit
Re: THUDDD Comments
Re: Ship economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:01:32 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Contact: The Sayat (II: Society)

Here's yet more Sayatiana, freshly coughed up and transcribed.  As before,
comments are most welcome.  Hell, it's *for* the comments that I'm posting
all this junk.
*****************************************

WORLD BUILDERS' HANDBOOK DESCRIPTION
Social Outlook:
     Progressiveness: Progressive attitude, advancing activity
     Agressiveness:   Defensive attitude, militant activity
     Extensiveness:   Harmonious attitude, friendly activity

Legal Profile:  Undivided uniformity
     Overall :   7      Personal Freedom:  5
     Weapons :  3      Trade:             8
                   Criminal:  9      Civil:             9
     Somewhat xenophobic; effective +1 law level for foreigners

Cultural Aspects:
     Individuality:      Some compulsory collective action
     Social Mobility:    Minimal distinctions of social class
     Phys. Mobility:     Global travel common; "global village" communications
     Worldview:          Primarily rational, with some holdovers of superstition
     Emotionalism:       Free expression except in front of strangers
     Gender Discrimination:  n/a
     Wealth:             Acquired by law; equal incomes
     Privacy:            Actions open to scrutiny at will by certain agencies
     Modesty/Body Zone:  Moderate coverage mandatory (body zone almost touching)
     Value of Sentient Life: Death penalty outlawed
     Value of Other Life:  All is for human use, but should be humanely treated
     Child-Rearing:      Group responsibility (commune)
     Honesty:            Widely accepted ethical code; offenders despised
     Work Ethic:         Work is an end in itself, a source of pleasure
     Time:               Schedules are flexible

Government Authority:   Civil Service Bureaucracy; several councils (all
branches).

*********************************

Sayat social structure and social philosophy are uncannily similar to Hiver
patterns, giving rise to the theory (and widespread popular belief) that
they are the product of a large-scale Hiver "manipulation."

STRUCTURE:
Like the Hiver, individuals live in 'nests' sharing a broad focus of
economic activity or interest (usually), and in which wealth and belongings
are owned communally.  The nest is the basic unit of society, rather than
the family (nuclear or otherwise).  It is true that in some respects the
nest is similar to the extended family in other human societies, and it is
likely that in earlier times, the 'nest' bore more resemblence to a 'clan,'
with its emphasis on consanguity and shared descent.

Most nests are part of larger 'hives,' the rough equivalents of cities,
corporations, or nations.  Governmental structures (both civilian and
military) are also considered nests and hives, and are not particularly
distinguished from other specialized units.

Mobility among nests (and to a slightly lesser extent, hives) is quite high
in the modern era.  Most Sayat change their nest affiliation after reaching
maturity and having finished the mandatory stint of 'national service;'
many go on to switch affiliation several times in the course of their life.
Individuals may also live and work separately from their primary nest
affiliation for extended periods of time.

While there are some who shift from nest to nest, sometimes even having
concurrent membership in several, there are no Sayat who are 'nestless'.
Occasionally someone will claim to be without a nest affiliation; other
Sayat, however, will not recognize this claim, and go on treating such an
individual (who is probably mentally ill) as a member of the appropriate
nest and hive.  The nest-hive structure of society is so fundamental to
Sayat culture that someone who is not part of it is, almost by definition,
not Sayat -- and possibly a menace to the common good.

GOVERNMENT:
This is best described as a 'civil service bureaucracy'.  There is a single
large hive which can be called 'the Government,' which fulfills all the
functions of the 'state' in other human societies, as well as playing many
additional roles.  The 'Government Hive' is made up of a large number of
smaller, specialized nests, each one focused on a particular aspect or
function of managing society and furthering the advance of civilization.
This hive acts as the chief mechanism for redistributing capital within the
economy; it "taxes" other hives and after using this wealth to support its
own activities, "invests" or "subsidizes" those of others.  Large amounts
of public work is handled by "subcontracting" in this manner, and the line
between "public" and "private" endeavours is often so blurry as to be not
worth examining.

Forcing Sayat political systems into our own molds, one can view this hive
as the executive branch of government; it also has a great deal of what we
might call legislative and judicial authority.  However, the legislative
branch is supplemented by frequent recourse to public debate and referenda
- -- and given the indistinctness of the public versus private spheres,
legislation is highly sensitive to the groundswell or undercurrent of
popular opinion.

The judicial powers and duties of the state work in tandem with the
'judges' or 'mediators' -- private individuals who, based on their
expertise in law and rhetoric, can be called in (or may independently
intercede) to settle conflict between individuals or groups in society.
While these 'judges' are entirely separate from the governmental structure
proper, and do not form specialized 'judicial nests' of their own, they
maintain fairly tight professional links with one another, and can be
considered a sort of parallel political agency, largely free of state
oversight.

ECONOMY AND BUSINESS:
The modern Sayat economy grew out of a communal, redistributive economy,
where the fundamental socioeconomic unit was the 'proto-nest' or (putative)
'clan.'  Claims to territory (grazing circuits, hunting territories,
fishing grounds) and the ownership of livestock and enclosures were all
held by the community as a whole, rather than individuals or families.
With technological advances and the  development of a global culture, the
precursors of the 'hive' arose to coordinate the more complex interactions,
and something best described as a 'command economy' resulted.  Sayat
economic thought has only vague, crude ideas of a 'free market', though
recent contact with other civilizations is slowly beginning to produce
changes in the way they see their economy.

Property and capital is still owned communally, by the nests and hives.
While individual Sayat do have personal belongings and limited amounts of
wealth, their daily needs (food, housing, clothing, transportation, medical
care, power, communications, etc.) are all furnished by the collective.
Long-term projects and investments are undertaken entirely by groups, and
not by individuals.  Individuals who are in some way 'over-achievers,' who
are a particular asset to their collective, do get many perks (prime
housing, use of personal vehicles, servants, access to a bigger 'credit
line' and more 'pocket money,' etc.) but have no more inalienable, personal
property than anyone else.  Those on the opposite end of the truncated
Sayat social ladder will get stuck with less desireable housing and find
their hive or nest somewhat less willing to pay for their luxuries.

The Sayat were slow in developing a monetary economy; it arose entirely out
of the need to coordinate the activities of independent, hive-sized
collectives in the early modern period.  Even today, within a large hive
there is very little exchange carried out with money (either cash or
electronic); most is done by a complicated system of barter and contract,
if need for accounting is perceived at all.  Much is done essentially
gratis, 'for the common good.'  Within nests, what few transactions take
place are entirely non-monetary.

Various nests and hives are heavily involved in specific industries or
economic activities.  Through de facto monopolies and de jure agreements
with the state, many have quasi-governmental authority in their fields of
interest.  Any enterprise that is necessary to a significant part of the
population, or is important to them, is certain to be run as a 'public
utility' through some combination of direct governmental control and
'subcontracted' responsibility.  Again, the public-private distinction is
fuzzy; the Sayat are not familiar with the concept, in any case.

CHILD-REARING is one aspect of society that differs from the Hiver model,
obviously.  While the Sayat are highly K-selected (even more than most
human subspecies), the Hiver are completely the opposite.

Each Sayat nest has a communal nursery and school in which all children
live, are raised, and are educated.  Professional caretakers and teachers
do most of the work, but the nest as a whole is constantly and deeply
involved in the child-rearing process -- a Hiver-like "parental instinct"
has largely replaced the human "reproductive instinct."  The parent-child
bond is very weak; it is considered a sign of neurosis (at least) for
parents to be possessive or even partial towards their "own" children --
and, vice versa, for children to fixate on their mothers.  Rather, adults
exhibit a generalized pride and possessive attitude towards the sum of the
children of their nest and hive.

In larger hives, the component nests often do not maintain their own
nurseries, but there are commonly-shared nurseries for the use of all nests
in a given district or neighborhood.  In modern times, the government has
stepped in to regulate child care and education, so as to ensure
standardization of the culture and knowledge imparted.

Infants are not considered "pests" as among the Hiver, but the Sayat do
lack much of the sentimentality of most other human societies toward
children and childhood.  For example, in dire emergencies where only some
portion of a group can be saved, the Sayat will gladly sacrifice children
- -- the youngest ones first -- while concentrating on rescuing adults and
the elderly.  The Sayat consider that less has been 'invested' in the
young, and being easier to replace than their elders, they are more
disposable.

SEX:  This one I leave to the readers' surely fertile imaginations.
"Unusually long fingers" and "mechanical assistance" has already been
introduced; 'muff said.  A couple general thoughts, though.

Due to Sayat biology, there's no connection between having sex and having
babies.  The first is a matter of entertainment and social bonding with
other adult individuals; the latter, of bonding to your nest, of
contributing to posterity.

Sayat feel strongly that children belong with other children, under the
supervision and care of the nest's nursery/school system, so childbearing
and rearing is far less of a burden on individual parents than in most
other human societies.

Pair-bonding does occur among Sayat, but such 'mated' individuals are not
especially likely to have children with one another (rather than with
anyone else), nor are they expected to; even sexual activity is not a
given, for that matter.  There are innumerable other forms of 'personal
relationships'; it is hard to make any generalizations on the matter, for
the reason that the Sayat simply don't attach much importance to such
matters.  The key emotional bond for a Sayat is with her nest (and by
extension her hive); colleagues, friends, coworkers,  and lovers are not
the less important, but viewed as more transitory, casual, and open to
consideratiosn of expediency.

CULTURAL POLICY:
Like the Hiver, they seek to ensure linguistic and cultural homogeneity: a
broad, fundamental body of shared assumptions, knowledge, and attitudes.
The Sayat regard this as the only possible basis for individuality and
personal freedom -- it provides a common ground for communication,
throughout all of Sayat society, without distinctions of region, social
status, economic power, or the like.  To this end, travel and mass
communication are widely encouraged and subsidized by Sayat hives and
nests, particularly the governmental ones.  Something very similar to Hiver
"embassies" are found in the form of exchanges, delegations, conferences,
tour groups and the like; the emphasis on exchanging genetic material is
much muted and less conscious, though not entirely absent.

EDUCATION:
The Sayat place an enormous amount of importance on education.  The
'nurseries' bear more resemblance to boarding schools; formal teaching
begins at age four, and children are not released from the custodianship of
the nursery until their fifteenth year.  For historical reasons, the Sayat
are fairly militaristic, and two years of (ground) military training is
mandatory at this point, followed by another two years of service in the
ground forces, further training in the space forces, or work and education
in some field of 'social importance' -- medicine, disaster readiness,
construction, law enforcement, agriculture and ranching, ditch-digging, or
anything else.  Advanced education is then an option which many Sayat take.
Many continue involvement in formal educational programs for decades, as
continuing or returning students.

Numerous specialized schools, institutes, academies, and research centers
exist, again set up on the nest-hive model.  At the post-secondary level,
there is generally little formal distinction between "research" and
"teaching;" much of the work at such institutions involves mentoring
arrangements, somewhat similar to apprenticeships.  The casual student will
keep her own nest/hive affiliation while attending, and the dedicated
scholar will join the nest/hive as a new member.

PSIONICS:
Despite the prevalence of superstition in the culture, psionics have never
been considered as anything other than phenomena subject to rational,
scientific investigation and application.  While psionics do not determine
social status as among the Zhodani (or even Vlazhdumecta), psionic testing
is given to all children, and those who have such talents are given the
necessary training and education to develop and use it.  They then go on to
take up roles in society where their talents will be of use -- psychology,
investigation, hazardous materials handling, search and rescue, etc.  There
is no particular fear or reverence shown to psionics in society.  The
number of psionically-talented individuals is perhaps slightly higher than
among "normal" human populations, but not greatly so, and this may be a
function of careful testing being able to catch a greater number of natural
talents.

DEMOGRAPHICS:
Like the Hiver, Sayat prefer to live in large, compact urban complexes.
Single-building city-arcologies are unknown, but urban buildings do tend to
be enormous and multi-use.  The distribution of population among the cities
is fairly even; there is no clear "megapolis" or "main city" on the planet.


Six large cities (with populations between 20 and 60 million) are present
on the surface of Marhach; an additional 35-40 smaller cities, each with
several million inhabitants, are scattered around the planet.  There are
relatively few small cities and towns; less than 9% of the planet's
population lives in such settlements.

However, it is customary to maintain rural cottages, resort villages,
camps, dachas, spas, and the like, either individually or as a group; one's
time is often split between "city" and "country" in this way, depending on
the season, work necessities, and personal preference.  For all but a
handful of modern Sayat, one's primary affiliation is considered to be with
the city, rather than the country.

Although farming and ranching are considerably more land-extensive than
among the Hiver, there are still large expanses of "wilderness" territory
on the planet.  Small numbers of Sayat continue to live the traditional,
nomadic pastoralist lifestyle.  In all, no more than 1% of the planetary
population can be considered rural.

*********************
Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:01:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: 1g Gravity

Im curious - how do traveller ships handle gravity, or are they all zero G
environments?  Digging way back into my memory, and making a quick
calculation, but if a ship travelled at 1G constantly, wouldnt there be a
normal Earth Gravity on the vessel?


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Kyoko
A PRISONER
Between the bars, the dove has stretched out one
Grey wing, to warm it in the winter sun.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 23:01:11 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:24:46 -0800
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
> 
> Wed, 01 Jan 1997 23:57:52 -0800,  Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
> >This debate over the "loophole" in the trade rules, ie travel to
> >destinations more than one Jump away. A few points..
> >
> >Two. With point one mind, consider this, most traders work to establish
> >a profitable trade routes. Higher jump ships will tend to find routes
> >that fits their higher range. Most often between high volume worlds
> >(Express).
> >While, lower jump ship will fill in the gaps (Locals).
> 
> Even if you artifically constrain the cost of passage/cargo to be the
> same regardless of distance... In the Traveller universe, they have
> presented the magacorps as running high jump, high profits lines with
> tramp freighters trying to eek out a living with low jump ships.
> However, the economics in the rules work the other way around.

If you have a higher Jump ship you can reach more different planets &
you can therefore find a planet which will be a _better_ market for the
cargo you are selling.

As an an example let us suppose you are on the planet Regina/Spinward
Marches & you wish to move some cargo.  I have listed all planets
reachable including interdicted ones.

A Jump 1 trader can reach 3 planets
(Jenghe, Ruie, Hefry)

A Jump 2 trader can reach 10 planets
(Jenghe, Ruie, Hefry, Extolay, Dinom, Dinomn, Wypoc, Djinni, Yori,
Forboldn)

A Jump 3 trader can reach 14 planets 
(Jenghe, Ruie, Hefry, Extolay, Dinom, Dinomn, Wypoc, Djinni, Yori,
Forboldn, Phlume, Rech, Roup, Knorbes)

A Jump 4 trader can reach 23 planets
(Jenghe, Ruie, Hefry, Extolay, Dinom, Dinomn, Wypoc, Djinni, Yori,
Forboldn, Phlume, Rech, Roup, Knorbes, KKirka, Treece, Yurst, Algine,
Woochiers, Whanga, Grant, 871-438, Tionale)

A Jump 5 trader can reach 32 planets
(Jenghe, Ruie, Hefry, Extolay, Dinom, Dinomn, Wypoc, Djinni, Yori,
Forboldn, Phlume, Rech, Roup, Knorbes, KKirka, Treece, Yurst, Algine,
Woochiers, Whanga, Grant, 871-438, Tionale, Echiste, Keanou, Inthe,
Rethe, Pscias, Feri, Uakye, Alell, Rangent)

A Jump 6 trader can reach 46 planets
(Jenghe, Ruie, Hefry, Extolay, Dinom, Dinomn, Wypoc, Djinni, Yori,
Forboldn, Phlume, Rech, Roup, Knorbes, KKirka, Treece, Yurst, Algine,
Woochiers, Whanga, Grant, 871-438, Tionale, Echiste, Keanou, Inthe,
Rethe, Pscias, Feri, Uakye, Alell, Rangent, Denotam, Ghandi, Ylaven,
Pirema, Kinorb, Dhian, Paya, Moughas, Shionthy, Enope, Boughene, Efate,
Lysen, Tremous Dex)




Assuming that the surrounding region is all of average density (half the
hexes have systems) ships can statistically expect to be able to reach
the following number of planets

Jump 1		3 planets
Jump 2		9 planets
Jump 3		18 planets
Jump 4		30 planets
Jump 5 		45 planets
Jump 6		63 planets

The more places you can go to to sell your cargo the better a market for
it you can choose to travel to and the more money you can make on it. 
This is why the megacorporations concentrate on the high jump ships as
they can sell to the best markets this way.

Note that for passengers and freight this you cannot make more money by
selling what you are carying for more money as the prices for freight &
passengers are fixed. However you can choose to go to planets more
people & freight wish to go to thereby ensuring your ship is fuller &
making more money (or at least loosing less) than you would otherwise.

Since the Megacorporations can afford the higher capital investments
needed for the higher jump trades they will have a comparative advantage
in doing so.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 00:12:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)

> Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:19:29 -0400 (EDT)
> From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> Subject: Re: Meson Guns - The last post?
> 
> 
> Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com> said:
> > All of these changes, I assume, come from the various things that FF&S did.
> > As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
> > with previous Traveller "canon" and is really fucking up the way
> > that things are supposed to work. Or, it's fucking up the way things
> > _used_ to work. 
[snip]
>         While I fully agree with your call for better internal
> consistency from IG, I think you've misplaced your ire as to what is
> "f*cking up" Traveller.
> 
> A Brief History:
> Around this time last year, Don Perrin introduced himself to the list and
> asked if anyone could provide him with some CT computer tables he was
> missing so that he could include them in T4.  A number of people were
> very vocally opposed to going back to this system and advocated       > instead a simplified system fully compatible with FF&S.  Perrin gave  > people on the list a week to come up with something.
> 
> Astonishingly, the Beta-list, lead by Dave Golden and Derek Wildstar,
> came up with the now familiar QSDS and SSDS in just a little over a
> week.  Following Perrins instructions, they were completely compatible
> with FF&S, execept for the changes introduced by the T4 background.  


Yes but at least one of these changes was a very large one.

> Fire, Fusion, & Steel, and its two simplifications QSDS and SSDS, are
> both internally consistent and consistent with past Trav canon. You 

T4 has changed jump fuel requirements back to CT's 10% of hull volume
per jump number from the smaller voulumes required by MT and TNE.
Many perfectly good ship designs, including most of my favorites, were
totally invalidated by this change.

In Mt and TNE's Fire Fusion & Steel the ammount of jump fuel required
was 5 times the size of the drives for the maximum possible jump and not
10% of the hull volume per jump number.

Jump 1 drives 	2 % of hull vol		jump 1 fuel	10% of hull vol

Jump 2 drives	3 % of hull vol		jump 1 fuel	7.5% of hull vol
					jump 2 fuel	15% of hull vol

Jump 3 drives	4% of hull vol		jump 1 fuel	6.67% of hull 
					jump 2 fuel	13.33 % of hull
					jump 3 fuel	20% of hull vol

Jump 4 drives	5% of hull vol		jump 1 fuel	6.25% of hull
					jump 2 fuel	12.5% of hull
					jump 3 fuel	18.75% of hull
					jump 4 fuel	25% of hull vol

Jump 5 drives	6% of hull vol		jump 1 fuel	6% of hull vol
					jump 2 fuel 	12% of hull vol
					jump 3 fuel	18% of hull vol
					jump 4 fuel	24% of hull vol
					jump 5 fuel	30% of hull vol

Jump 6 drives	7% of hull vol		jump 1 fuel	5.83% of hull
					jump 2 fuel	11.67% of hull
					jump 3 fuel	17.5% of hull
					jump 4 fuel	23.33% of hull
					jump 5 fuel	29.17% of hull
					jump 6 fuel	35% of hull vol

Under the old system a more powerfull (higher jump number) jump drive
was more efficient & this made sense to me.  Under the new system you
donot have this advantage anymore.

A ship designed with FF&S could be translated & adapted into a MT
design  or vice versa but niether one can be translated into a CT or T4
design if the ship in question was more than jump2 or so because its
fuel tank requirements are now so high that the ship no longer has room
for the fittings it used to have.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:50:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re:  Toronto TML Thing

Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com> says

>Anyone want to plan a low-key Toronto TML get-together
>sometime this summer? Get together some saturday or sunday
>afternoon in some public-kinda-coffeehouse-gathering-space
>and chat in person?

Well, y'know there's a cool SF convention in Toronto...

        Ad Astra 17
        June 13-15, 1997
        Days Inn, Toronto Airport

Not the best location for a get-together, true, but it's a great
convention. I'll be doing a bunch of panels, and even a reading. I don't
have the contact info handy at the moment. And I can't remember who the GOH
is this year. Will post more when I have the info.

GMG

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:37:57 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Some Questions

I just sent a question to Mircoplrose:
- --> I have a question concerning your MegaTraveller Series. Was Part 
- --> III ever published? 
To which they replied:
- ->     Unfortunately Mega Traveler 3 was not released.
Now my question here:
Has MM discussed his ideas or the planned plot of the game in this 
list? If not, maybe we can prod him to do so? I really liked the 
plotline of the first two games with #2 being my fave!

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:40:14 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TL 16 Robot World (Westworld meets Traveller)

- -> Sabmiqays (but the spelling's probably off). Described in an early   
- -> edition of Challenge - something like issue 32 or 33 if I remember   
- -> rightly.
Yes, i remember! Really liked that article! Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:51:27 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TNS articles for 1113-1115

- -> Someone asked for TNS articles for 1115, I don't remember who...
- -> 
- -> The reason that there are no TNS articles posted for the years 1113-1115
- -> is that there ARE no TNS articles for those years. GDW jumped time forward
- -> after the end of the FFW to the beginning of the rebellion, this was the
- -> transition period between CT and MT (IIRC).
Maybe we should make some up!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:45:08 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TNE Tidbit

- ->   Are you sure this non-dead Emperor bit is not a reference to Strephon?
- -> Don't have my reference materials here, but couldn't this just be refering
- -> to the fact that Strephon was assasinated and then turns up as the "False"
HERETIC! It's the TRUE Straphon who will return after 75 or so years 
to peacefully reclaim what is rightfully his!
- -> Strephon?  Perhaps the context of the quotation rules this out, but I'm
- -> curious.
 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:49:12 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TNE tidbit

- -> Hmmm...this is the genesis of an adventure I have, half finished, on my
- -> hard drive. See, there were other intelligent chips on Cymbeline, not
(snippage) 
- -> Yep, it's pissed all right, and strictly speaking, it's NOT Virus. Where
- -> do you think the Peacemaker strain came from, anyway? ;-)
Sounds very interesting! If you ever finish it, please post it?
- -> primarily Vampire fleets and Survival Margin (SM, IMO, is the single best
- -> background source of any Traveller supplement ever. There's SO damn much
- -> there, overt and between the lines, that even a not-so-inventive ref can
- -> mine it for years worth of adventures.)
Even ifd i am not entirely Happy with TNE, i very much enjoyed SM, in 
my eyes one of the best Traveller Books ever produced. It wrapped up 
the Rebellion and Hard Times Settings pretty well, and was very 
informative!
Such a book is still sorely missing for TNE!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:03:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

In mail you write:

> You know the *only* thing about meson cannon that I like is the deep meson
> site.  I absolutely detest them as ship weapons..from a game play/design
> point of view. 

That's ok. I can think of at least one possible ship carried weapon
that can't be used by planetary defense.

Any planet with an ionisphere has a *major* potential difference
between the surface and the ionisphere. It runs about 1000 volts per
meter on earth. The ionisphere and the surface thus form the plates of
a giant spherical capacitor.

Now, take a big tunable laser. Mount it on a ship. Use it to ionize a
path from the ionisphere to the ground. You get a "lightning bolt" with
a power level more suited to an asteroid impact.

It may be more of a "slow burn". Taking a few hours to drain the
charge. Either way it'll act like EMP only a *billion* times worse.
Electronics fry, long conductors melt, etc, etc. And your ship is
floating "serenely" above the devastation.

BTW, a "tamed" version of this makes a power plant that allows such
insanities as broadcast power. (a "solar tap")

> I think I'll invent the singularity cannon!  It fires a pair of transverse
> standing gravity waves forming a singularity at their intersection.  The
> standing waves travel at the speed of gravity (is that c, or is that
> something else? <g>), until they decay at range X.  Yep, that's my new
> weapon, the singularity cannon..think it'll ever be canon? ;-b

Gravity waves can't be "transverse". They are more like sound waves.
Push this way, then the opposite way, but both pushes are along the
direction the wave is travelling rather than at right angles to it.

ps. The "solar tap" may make a better weapon for the invaders, but a
planet has sheer *size* on it's side. Picture a toroidal PAW wrapped
around the planet! This works nicely for those rich, small worlds with
no or trace atmospheres...

If you break the accelerator, they can use segments as mass drivers!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:47:47 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics

Eris Reddoch writes:
>>               Basic starship economics for Traveller in Milieu 0
>>               ==================================================
> 
>Excellent post snipped!
> 
>Hans, I might quibble with some of your numbers, forex I have
>different ideas about salaries, but this is an excellent job.  Me, being
>me, I won't adhere to hard and fast rules, but as guidelines on fixed and
>variable costs these are very good.

Thanks!
 
>I know Free Traders work the cracks, and outside established trade routes.
>OTOH, their fixed costs are...well, fixed, and their variable costs are
>still proportional to the cargos/passengers they *do* carry.  Speculative
>trade (and chartered passage) are probably all that keeps them profitable
>though.  

Not if the ship is paid up. Under the present rules a 40 year old paid up
ship is a _far_ better investment than a new ship, because the crippling
bank payments are missing. You can undercut the freight and passenger charges
of your competitors and still make a truly ridiculous amount of money.
The joker in the deal is, of course, breakdowns and repairs. A breakdown of
a jump drive can wipe out several years worth of profits in one fell swoop.
Only the rules don't deal with that.
 
>The 6.25% profit figure you suggest isn't what I'd call profit, I think
>what you're describing is cost of capital.  The note on the ship will
>probably eat all of that 6.25, and if you've paid off the note it will go
>toward the replacement cost of the ship.  The actual profit is anything
>left over from revenue after all expenses, including principle and interest
>on notes and any desired replacement costs, have been paid.

That was one of the bits I intended to change. Bank payments amount to 6.25%
of the 80% the owner borrowed from the bank, and that is, as you point out,
not profit but cost of capital. But the owner also invested 20% of his own 
money and he'll expect a return on that. For simplicity's sake I decided to
make that return 6.25% too, and to say that 20% was the owner's profit and
the remaining 80% was the bank's profit. This is, as was pointed out to me,
not correct. First of all, the bank payments include paying off the principal,
so the true return for the bank is roughly 3%. Secondly, given that a bank
makes 3% on a not entirely risk-free venture like financing a starship, the
owner propably couldn't find alternate investments giving more than 3%, so
a 3% return on his 20% of the ship is propably more realistic. So when I
redo the figures I'll split the return into two parts.

>Sure, a businessman will have a desired ROI, and if they don't consistently
>get it they'll put their money someplace else.  I can accept ~6% as an
>average desired ROI, but that's going to vary from owner to owner.  Some
>people will take a lower return on their investment if they get to be their
>own boss, "do their own thing", and/or get psychic satisfaction out of
>their situation..this describes anybody that owns a Free Trader to me. ;->

Sure. But what I want to do is to determine the economic "environment" that
a Free Trader operates in, and that means the average. The special cases I
dismissed in the first paragraph, because you can mess things up pretty
much any way you want in the short run using special cases.
 
Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Preserved food costs Cr20 per man-day (from CT, I couldn't find food prices
>in MT or TNE, and I don't have T4).

Well, preserved food is designed to last for months and is posssibly not as
palatable as fresh food (I say possibly, because although such is the case
today, I suspect that another 6 TLs will enhance food preservation
techniques considerably), so preserved luxury food may be more expensive
than Cr20 per day, but not by a factor 8.

>>JUMP FUEL
>>Regular passenger starships usually make 35 sceduled jumps per year if they
>>fly surface to surface and 40 per year if they only go from jump limit to
>>jump limit. They always buy refined fuel to save time. Note btw. that if
>>produced in large quantities it costs less than Cr5 per ton to refine fuel.
>>So even if they have to buy it at Cr100 per ton, someone is making a
>>killing on that refined fuel. If the unrefined fuel can be picked up more or
>>less for free in a nearby ocean, the profits are even greater.
> 
>I suspect that a lot of the 'standard' prices are set by the Imperium, in
>its role as a trade regulator. I also think that the high prices of fuel
>only apply to small companies, and are set this high because of
>Megacorporate pressures (to keep small traders marginal). Actually I've
>just realised - of course the costs only apply to small companies, the
>Magacorps will have their own facilities at all their stopoffs.

But if refined fuel cost more than ~Cr250 it becomes more economic for even a 
small ship to install a fuel purifier, because the money saved on fuel will 
be more than the revenue lost from the lessened cargo/passenger capacity. 

>>PROFIT
>>Profit is the return on the money invested expected by the people who owns
>>the ship. If there is a loan in the ship, some of the profit goes to pay the
>>bank loans, if not, it goes to the owner. In any case the profit amounts to
>>6.25% per year unless local conditions differ markedly from the Imperial
>>average.
> 
>Any particular reason for 6.25% ?

See above. Bank payments amount to 6.25% of the money borrowed from them.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1299
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